Impact Masters Podcast

#31 - Mariam Nourya Koné

• Impact Masters Media • Season 35

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Join us on the African Impact Master Show as we welcome the dynamic Mariam Nourya Koné, a trailblazer in coding and community management from West Africa. Mariam's journey takes us from her early days in Senegal's private Catholic schools—where she developed a love for reading, martial arts, and standing up against intimidation—to her unexpected pivot from aspiring neurosurgeon to a thriving career in computer science. Her story is a compelling blend of resilience, self-defense, and breaking stereotypes, offering invaluable insights for anyone striving to make a significant impact in their chosen field.

Through Mariam's personal anecdotes, we explore the harsh realities of school bullying and the critical influence of educators on student engagement. This episode also delves into the unique challenges faced by women in STEM fields, highlighting how initiatives like Girls in Tech are crucial for empowering the next generation of female engineers and leaders. Mariam's experiences underscore the importance of societal support for women to pursue their own career paths—be it in technology, motherhood, or beyond. Tune in to be inspired by a remarkable journey of overcoming odds and redefining success.

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Michael Kimathi:

yes, yes, yes, thank you so much. Thank you so much. It's another blessed day and we have a wonderful guest. I'm your host, Michael Kimathi of, if you Want, MK, and I'm hosting Impact Masters Podcast, in collaboration with Africa's Talking, bringing you the African story that matters. And today it's a beautiful day.

Michael Kimathi:

We have one awesome guest from the west side of Africa and by the name. She's a lady that I have known for some time now, and she's done amazing stuff that I want and I feel like she is an impact master. She has written code, she has run the community, still does, she's a country manager, among many other things that I know about her. But, without further ado, welcome at Impact Masters Show. How are you, Mariam?

Michael Kimathi:

I am fine, you're fine, it's good to have you. You look fine, though, you too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's good to have you, Mariam and Mariam at this show.

Michael Kimathi:

Actually, we're trying to feature, you know, Africa Impact Masters and tell our own authentic stories, because for the longest, the African stories have been told by third parties and most of the times when uh, you know, they are broken down to 1.5 minutes and it's basically what favors the agenda. So we're trying to change the narrative and create our own stories that uh say 100 years, 50 years from now. If you listen to these kind of conversations, you can learn one or two things. If you see a billion-dollar company, if you see an impactful company, you know the journey that actually resulted to that and that's why we're here today. But before we tell an African story, as you know, we really want to know who is Mariam. Where was she born? How did she become this awesome?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Well, my full name first is. . I was born in Katiwa Abidjan.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

And I was raised in Dakar, Senegal.

Michael Kimathi:

That's still West Africa, oh awesome.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yes, I studied there school, primary school high school.

Michael Kimathi:

Yeah, go ahead, go ahead.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

So middle school, primary school, middle school, high school, and then when I finished high school I felt like I've actually never left, lived in my country. And I decided okay, I want to go there and study computer science. I wanted to be a doctor or a computer scientist.

Michael Kimathi:

I told you she's smart. So, Mariam, before you go doing doctorate, medicine doctor right.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yes, neuropsychologist, neurosurgeon, sorry, neurosurgeon.

Michael Kimathi:

That's a different level. Yes, so how was your primary school, middle level, how was that experience for you? Because also, again, you know, we are talking about some of our childhood, our friends, our experiences, our upbringing, our friends, our experiences, our upbringing and, um, even when any any of you know, innovator, any impact master already existing, if you really want to know why they do what they do and how they think, you have to understand who they have been even before they were recognized. So how was that like for you? Or how is it to study in Senegal, in primary school or nursery school? I don't know where you start in Senegal?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

So in Senegal. So I grew up there. That's from zero years old to 18 years old.

Michael Kimathi:

Okay.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

And I only went to private Catholic school.

Michael Kimathi:

Yeah.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

And it was in a very, I would like to say, international environment.

Michael Kimathi:

Okay, In the sense that Was it an international school or it was a local school that also had international content.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

We had, I think, more than 52 nationalities represented in the school so it was a very like diverse environment where you would see any kind of people so for me that was like it's normal you know, and I was. I loved reading. I would spend my lunch breaks at school's library. Yeah, because I would get bored when kids would be jumping in the sand and sweating weirdly I was a very active kid as well yeah I used to fight a lot.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I used to fight boys, yeah, but aside from that, because I would just not take uh intimidation, I was like no, you cannot intimidate me because I'm a girl yeah and, aside from that, I was just spending my time reading and, you know, watching mangas, and you know all the classic mangas we all watched, like dragon ball z and those things those are cartoons or um, those are mangas like the animated version of the mangas.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Okay, um, you've probably heard of sensei, yeah, no, yes, you know all those um Japanese animation that we used to watch as kids yeah and even now, to be honest. But yes, that was how I would entertain myself and playing games, and I used to also practice martial arts. I've been practicing that since a kid, yeah, yeah, so that's kind of how was my primary school. I did have because since I was an Ivorian in Senegalese country, sometimes people will try to harass me because I was not a local.

Michael Kimathi:

That's where you studied martial arts.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

No, no, my dad was like everyone is going there, my sister, everyone. We all went through that, but it was really fun, really cool so right now, no one can harass you. You know and deal with them you know, harassers are still going to harass, no matter how you look or what you can do yeah, but you see, if you have these techniques, you have these.

Michael Kimathi:

You know or what you can do. Yeah, but you see, if you have these techniques, you have them. You know moves. Sometimes you can defend yourself. Or you know disable Is it disable or do it Like I don't know. You can defend yourself and even beat someone, in case it gets to that point.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Well, I'd rather it does not get there, because I'm not a big fan of violence. But yes, I will defend myself.

Speaker 3:

I will.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I do not like to create fights.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

When I was a kid I used to fight a lot Like yes, Okay, Don't push me Okay.

Michael Kimathi:

Okay, let's do it.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

But martial arts, I think, helped me become centered. You don't have to, because now you know that you can control the power that you have you can. You can actually protect yourself, you know.

Michael Kimathi:

You know what type of harm you can do and at that point you're like no, I do not want to go there let's discuss it so you know how powerful you are when it comes to that and you don't want to use that, but that's, that's beautiful and maybe we'll get to know why. So how many years do you do in Senegal for the primary school?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

primary school, middle school, high school, everything.

Michael Kimathi:

Even the very first time you go to school, I went to school there so, yeah, it's primary school we're in Kenya, by the way, guys, in case you're wondering where I'm calling here and then secondary school and then university. So there's no middle school and all these things, but the curriculum is changing to competency-based learning. So that might change around, because even the years that you spend in the primary school have changed, I think, because there is some kindergarten in between before you get to primary school, but that's just changed like four years ago. So you how many years did you spend in primary school?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Well, first there was kindergarten, Okay, and then primary school. You had like what? Sorry, I'm counting.

Michael Kimathi:

No worries.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Like I would say six years.

Michael Kimathi:

Six years In kindergarten.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

That's primary school.

Michael Kimathi:

Kindergarten is three years or three years of that it's primary school and three years no, and three years kindergarten yes three years kindergarten and then six years primary school and then middle school.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

You have, uh like, four, four years is that french.

Michael Kimathi:

So you guys studied in French.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yes.

Michael Kimathi:

Okay, interesting, we'll get to all these French English where that came in. So middle school you said how many years.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Six years.

Michael Kimathi:

Six years, and that's when you get to the national examination.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yes, okay.

Michael Kimathi:

And that now qualifies you to go to. Middle school Middle school, which is more or less like secondary school. Middle school, which is more or less like secondary school Kind of how many years there.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Four years and another exam.

Michael Kimathi:

Oh, okay, like national exam.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yes, so let me ask you. And then three years again, okay, and then another exam. Okay, three years now, that's like university, college, and all that After the three years, then it's university.

Michael Kimathi:

How many years before? There's six, there's four, yes, that's 10, and then there's three years yes, 13 and then university how many years, and then university, depends on what you want to study all right, all right. So, um you finish your primary school, how did you perform?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I performed average and even a little bit less.

Michael Kimathi:

Why I was not focused at all. Oh, okay, you loved to play.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yes, I was not focused, I was very distracted. I would even read books in classes.

Michael Kimathi:

That's what I used to do, yes, but I think if you read books, you should have tasted.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I mean fun books. I was reading to have fun. I was not reading to books. I was reading to have fun. I was not reading to learn. I was reading exciting books, adventure books.

Michael Kimathi:

you know Supernatural.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Anything but math and the things I was supposed to actually read.

Michael Kimathi:

Do you love sciences at that level, or just?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

No, at that time. No, I was not very interested in that. I wanted to become a witch A witch Based on the books I was reading. Oh, the comic and all that stuff, the imaginary, you know I was looking for my powers, you know, and I was like oh, when am I going to receive my letter? To go to Hogwarts, you know, and the magic word yes.

Michael Kimathi:

So at this point you're like you know you're just being a child anyway, so so, and then you join high school. So when people graduate there are they called like by the government. How is that process of transitioning from middle school to say, middle school I think primary school to middle school?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

yes, so you have to have. First you need to have the proper grades in that last year of primary school and then you need to have a good mark, a certain mark at least, on the exam, and then you go.

Michael Kimathi:

They can basically reorient you to another school or to the same school, or you can just your parents can just say okay, she succeeded at her exam, then she's going there and then you just start normally and the avenue is that you either call out to go to this middle school or maybe your parent takes you to the private school.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yes, so for you?

Michael Kimathi:

which path did you take after that?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I kept going to a private school because I was not a Senegal national. Oh, I see, yes.

Michael Kimathi:

So there's no opportunity for you there to go to this school. Yes, right, I see. And here, by the way, is this something that I ask most of my guests. I don't know if it's the same thing in Senegal. Do people get monolized like being bullied and being welcomed? There's a certain welcome that people receive when they join high schools here, is it the?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

same there. Well, there was no particular bullying. I was bullied in primary school, oh okay, but not in high school.

Michael Kimathi:

Not in high school? Yes, no, so why? Because you are a foreigner. That's why you are bullied in primary school Mainly mainly, I think, people kids first.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

They duplicate what adults do and I remember I used to have a teacher who I felt despised me. Maybe as a kid it was something else, but I really did feel that he did not like me, put a lot of pressure on me, targeting me even when I was not even doing anything. So there was that. And then, when kids realize that, even the teacher doesn't like you, then they start pushing you around, messing up, messing with you.

Michael Kimathi:

That is sad.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I was a rebel in primary school.

Michael Kimathi:

I was like no. That's how you fought. I was a nerd in primary school At some point.

Speaker 3:

I was like let me, that's why you fought a lot.

Michael Kimathi:

I was a nerd in primary school.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Oh, okay At some point I was like, let me just distance myself from that, I would be on my thing. But then if he came for me, we would fight.

Michael Kimathi:

Okay, yes, I mean, it makes sense now why you're fighting other people and you know most probably, maybe you're defending yourself. So you joined high school. Did you get serious? How?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

was it there? Was it smooth? My first year of high school it went well. I started actually being really interested into English because my English teacher was actually I think he was a pastor or priest. How do you say it? We call it father. We call it father. We call him father.

Michael Kimathi:

Priest yes, he was a priest, Really kind really nice.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

So for me, if I like the person and it kind of seems, interesting I started learning, you know and I became the best I was like. I like it.

Speaker 3:

Oh yeah.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yes, that's when I actually started liking math as well and natural sciences and things like that, but then I was not very motivated to get good grades. So I would just do what I had to do to move on to the next.

Michael Kimathi:

Why Were you still cheeky and involved in?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

activities yes, I was still a bit bored. Oh okay, I was bored.

Michael Kimathi:

Yeah, yeah, I was not very interested in what I was learning but in this you were so interested and invested at the same time.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I actually started being focused and trying to get good results when I was in that last year of middle school. I have this exam. My grades are bad and I cannot fail. Why you could not afford failing. I have this exam, my grades are bad and I cannot fail.

Michael Kimathi:

Why could you not afford failing?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Because that was not an option for me. I mean, as a kid, failing for me was not an option because I hate, regret. If you fail after trying, then you know you've tried, but if you haven't even put in the effort, the guilt, the guilt after that.

Michael Kimathi:

But in primary school you failed. Was it a regret?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I never did a class like two times.

Michael Kimathi:

Oh, okay.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I was going there. I was not the best but I was.

Michael Kimathi:

You know, you were just managing, I was managing, but at this point you say I don't want to manage anymore, I want to be no even then I was not.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I didn't want to be at the top because I was not even following, I was just like barely getting there. Okay, after the right grade, bam. Next the right grade by next okay, interesting stuff yeah if I keep going on this, I'm probably going to fail this one, because I could see, because I, because I'm not making effort.

Michael Kimathi:

I was not even studying.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I was just having fun reading my books oh, you're still reading your comic books reading my books, reading my harry potter, that's what I would do, um, and I'm like, no, I actually need to pass this one, and then I'll see if the classes that I have in high school I actually like and maybe I'll put in the effort but, yeah, I think I was. I was starting to be getting to be interested in natural science.

Michael Kimathi:

What is natural science? You have said that twice now. Yes, what's that?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

We used to call it science of life and earth, literally. If I'm translating, that's not biology. Not only biology. Okay, there was a bit about the, the ground, like kind of geology and all those things. It was a mix of that and also science about the body, um, all those things what did you say, science of?

Michael Kimathi:

but what's that?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

what I mean is that you're studying body parts. You're studying oh I don't know how you guys call it in your system.

Michael Kimathi:

No, no no, that's biology actually.

Michael Kimathi:

Like physical anatomy, physical, something to do with anatomy. So here we have three sciences. Just to break it down so that at least you get why I'm confused. There's physics, chemistry and biology. Those are the three sciences. So chemistry is the chemical reaction, and now you know they affect anything. So you understand how, if you mix chemicals, what happens and also what triggers actually those reactions. And then, with physics is more mechanical, like you know, there is a pendulum, there's a structure, there's all these things and the math that are involved in that, the speed and all that kind of stuff. Then biology is the body structure, the how the body function, the plants, you know whatnot. And then now, especially when you talk about plants, that's when chemistry meets biology. Okay, does that make sense?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yes, yes, so yeah, it's biology.

Michael Kimathi:

Yeah, in some parts you find that even how the tree grows, they grow against the gravity and all that. If the tree, if they leave, you know whatever happens, it falls. Why does it fall the gravity? So you see how they relate as sciences. So it was biology.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yes, we had physics, we have chemistry and we had biology, but at that point we were not studying chemistry or physics. We started that in high school. We were only doing biology.

Michael Kimathi:

Okay, I see, and all this is done in French.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yes.

Michael Kimathi:

Besides the English lesson? Yes, okay, okay. How was it Like, now that you know English and you have been doing this in French? Do you think doing things in English is easier, or French?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

It depends. I guess if you've learned French first, first it's easier for you to be, doing these things in English because you have, I feel, a lot more rules in French you have masculine, feminine, a lot of those things that you don't have it's easier to go from French to English than it is to go from English to French oh, I see.

Michael Kimathi:

So you do your high school, you pass right and then you go to high school. So high school. That's why now you choose what you do in Senegal. How does it work?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yes, now you have to pick between sciences, sciences and literature, kind of. So I went for sciences. Why? Because I wanted to be challenged.

Speaker 3:

I liked mathematics but I wanted to be challenged.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I didn't see myself because you would still do literature but, you also do science and math and physics chemistry, which is very light when you're doing that literature kind of program.

Michael Kimathi:

So it's different. So it was more science now onwards.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yes, I would say it was balanced. A good amount of science, a good amount of literature, language. Yes, it was balanced.

Michael Kimathi:

So in high school, were you welcomed or were they cool?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

It was fine, my first year of high school, I was actually on vacation in my home country. I was in Abidjan and then I came one week late and the very first test we had was I think it was a physics and chemistry test, and I had never had studied chemistry or physics.

Michael Kimathi:

I had three out of 20 I remember that, that's how did it make you?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

feel I was like starting I need to be serious.

Michael Kimathi:

Yeah, I need to be like, yes, yes, and was there like someone who had 19 out of 20, you know 20 out of 20.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yes, there was a girl like that.

Michael Kimathi:

Was it a girl's school? No, okay, mixed school.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Mixed school, but girls were usually the first in the class most of the time. Top of the class, top of the class.

Michael Kimathi:

Okay, that's very interesting. Why? Because you said that category girls you're always first.

Speaker 3:

Why do you think so?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Well, it was a fact. We could see it. You know, we could see it. I feel it's because women understand girls at least understand very early that they need to two times, three times more than men to be recognized, acknowledged or respected.

Michael Kimathi:

So from a very early age.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

You know that I need to be really good at that or I will be dismissed.

Michael Kimathi:

That's a very interesting aspect. Your brother and I think we'll get to you know what you're doing for other girls, for other women and all that. But at this point now, things are starting to form and I like how this is going, and even right now I think there's this term movement with every company, including Africa, stalking that you find there's more attention to girls, there's more intentional drive to reach out to girls. There are even a couple of events that are shaped for girls, like Girls in Tech workshops, girls in Tech hackathon and all that Are you saying. Girls in tech workshops, girls in tech and all that Are you saying. If girls realize this early on, some of these initiatives might not be that necessary. They could compete in a flat field, or do you think this is still necessary?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Well, I think it is still necessary, even if we bring that to that level, because there's definitely a bias that is there. There is that idea that if you are a woman, you cannot do those technical jobs or have a technical career because, well, either women are not smart enough or they don't have the strength to actually pull through, or they are meant to get married and they are meant to raise children. So they should not be there. You know, and you know that as a software engineer, software developer, sometimes you are required to be doing extra hours working at nights.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

So there is that stigma that, oh, if you're a woman, this is not for you, so go do marketing and commercials.

Michael Kimathi:

So let me ask you, mariana I think from the African perspective that was basically out of love that already being a wife, being a mom, it's a lot of work to be honest, it is More than any science I know.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

It is I agree.

Michael Kimathi:

I think you guys, no offense you are made for that, you are created for that, instinct-wise and any other definition.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Let me not go that way, because not every woman wants to have kids. Not every woman who has kids has that internal. How do you say the word that you used?

Michael Kimathi:

Maternal.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Maternal instincts. Not all women have that, and uh, I think the point is we should be letting women make choices for themselves you know, choice, choose. I want to be this. I want to be this if she wants to be a mother and be an engineer, it's possible. If she wants to be a mother, solely it's possible and it is respectable and it is honorable if she wants to be an engineer, and it is also honorable if she wants to be in commercial if she wants to be in commercial, because we I feel like the society is trying to put women in a specific box where just like men come

Mariam Nourya Koné:

with different. I feel like the society is trying to put women in a specific box when, just like men come with different, you know different. I would say skills. Like you take you, you take the next person, the next man you meet. You don't have the same set of skills, you don't have the same weaknesses Like you are really good at what you're doing, but he might be really bad at what you're doing and might be really bad at what you're doing and he might enjoy other things. You know manual work.

Michael Kimathi:

I have no dispute with that. Actually is that I feel like you know, there's too much pressure for girls to be engineers.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I don't think there is pressure for that. I think what is trying to happen here is trying to show girls and women that this is also an option not putting pressure, but this is women that this is also an option Not putting pressure, but this is an option. This is actually okay. You know, let me tell you something. When I was doing my bachelor in computer science and engineering, you know how people would call us the girls in the room. They were like we were like six out of 40 people.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

You are boys with hairs. Okay, boys with hairs, people will actually tell me. Oh, do you even have hair under that hijab you're wearing.

Michael Kimathi:

And by the way I meant to ask. You said you studied in all Catholic schools but you're Muslim. So there was no. Like you know, you need to be in another school.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

No, I only went to Catholic. So what happens is you have really good to be in another school? No, I only went to catholic. So what happens is you have really good catholic schools in?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

senegal that's a fact yeah they have really good teachings and everything, but you still have I wouldn't. I don't want to give a number, but back in the time I think it was approximately more than 90 percent of the school children were Muslim. So there were Catholic classes and then, during Catholic classes, muslims and non-Catholic kids had another thing that we called moral, where a teacher would come and talk to us about values and different things. So it was never I mean, we were never pressed into or forced into another belief and.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I think that's. That is one thing that I liked. We had those ecumenical prayers that we have. They would bring, like a priest or an a vek, an imam or a sheikh and a rabbi, and then all of the students. We will do one prayer that is universal, and we would do that even every Monday before starting classes so for us it was you're sitting next to a Catholic, you're sitting next to a Christian, you're sitting next to a Muslim, it's the same for us. We just had love for each other.

Michael Kimathi:

Amazing stuff and does that help you to even focus on important things? If you want to focus, maybe, on science, and just walk to anyone, regardless of their religion or background, and say you know what, I can't figure this out. Please you know, show me how do you figure this out and stuff like that yes, it's not a barrier.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

It's like, no matter what you look like, if you have the info I have, I'm going to go for it. Oh nice. I'll just take you the way you are.

Michael Kimathi:

Are you expecting to be taken the way you are? The?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

way I am. I am Actually. I have not started wearing the hijab until, like my last year of high school. I was not wearing it before.

Michael Kimathi:

That's why they said your voice is there. So why did you like make that switch? Was it like it a conscious decision? You know what? I'm an Islam girl. As much as there's no pressure, I want to live like an Islam lady.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Well, I actually started wondering. I started asking myself questions because I would see at the school mothers coming and dropping off their kids, some of them wearing the hijab, some of them not wearing it. And I started wondering that was late primary school, like late middle school, like the last year of high school.

Michael Kimathi:

Which year was this?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

The last year of middle school, which year specifically? Like the year. Oh, when was that?

Michael Kimathi:

Just to give people the idea of the timelines and all that.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Okay.

Speaker 3:

I think the math probably around in 2009? Oh, okay, maybe 2010, something like that.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I'm not very sure, but around that time, around that time yeah, so I started doing a lot of research, you know, because obviously I've have learned the quran. As a kid. I had a very good teacher. I would know how to read and write in Arabic and read the Quran, but in terms of understanding all of it, I was really far in terms of the talking and everything.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

So I was like, okay, I actually need to know, because I would ask women around me and they would all have different answers because they did not know as well, they just had ideas about it.

Michael Kimathi:

It some would tell you that you wear the hijab when you're coming from the hajj the hajj is the muslim pilgrimage that we do uh, okay, okay, I also started in like, uh, more or less 50, 50 or I don't know um muslim, and you know, some of the guys in primary school were Muslim, so every other I don't know which month was that I forgot, because it's a long time that they used to be excited about this Mecca trip. So they were not going to Mecca, but we used to say, okay, they were going to Mecca, but where they were going to is the arch.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yes, yes. So as a Muslim, if you have the means you have to do it Right. Yes, yes, actually, it's where we have, it's our prayer direction. When we pray, the direction is Mecca.

Michael Kimathi:

Oh, you have to face that side.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yes, it used to be Jerusalem, but it's Mecca, mecca now.

Michael Kimathi:

Can you repeat that it used to be?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Jerusalem.

Michael Kimathi:

So Jerusalem, where it is right now, is not Jerusalem.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

No, our prayer direction used to be in Jerusalem. We used to pray towards Jerusalem.

Michael Kimathi:

Which is the opposite side.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yes, and it changed at some point.

Michael Kimathi:

And thinking of this. Jerusalem is on the south of Mecca, right.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I do not know the position of Jerusalem compared to Mecca. I was not there at the time.

Michael Kimathi:

I mean, if you think about it, which country is it in? Is it Oman, some country on top of Jerusalem?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

No idea.

Michael Kimathi:

Yeah, I'll figure that out, because now I'm like, even the mosque, the way people maybe pray, it's built according to that and all that. I think maybe I need to ask you this now Any person who lives fully, any person who is alive, they're made of three things body, mind and soul, or body, mind and spirit. And it sounds like in your high school years is when you started becoming conscious about your spiritual rather than your religion. You are muslim for a long time, which is religion, and now you know you're tourists, like why am I muslim? What? How should I live like a muslim? Do you think you're getting more spiritual? You're just abiding to the religions, rules and regulations it was.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

It didn't start like that. It was like, oh, why are some Muslims wearing the hijab and why are some of them not wearing it?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

so then I started doing the research and then I was like, okay, this is why we're supposed to wear the hijab the research was in the Quran yes, the Quran and the Sunnah, which is basically the sayings and the actions reported of the Prophet Muhammad, sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, and his companions and basically the people around him. So that's when I learned it's written in the Quran we're supposed to wear the hijab. And I'm like, okay, very interesting. Then I keep doing some research and I'm like, okay, very interesting. Then I keep doing some research and I'm like, okay, then I have Christian friends. I'm in a Catholic school. Why am I not Catholic?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Then I start looking into it and I start reading the Bible and I start finding the similarities between the Quran and the Bible and all of that and I'm like, okay, why not? Why am I not Jewish? Okay, let me look at that.

Michael Kimathi:

There were Jewish in your class. No very rare.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Did not have. It was very rare.

Speaker 3:

And at that point.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I don't think I had met a Jewish person in middle school. No yeah, but I did start doing some research, like okay why, am I not Jewish? Then I started comparing and this is interesting. Okay, what is there? Okay, why are Muslims doing this? And the others are doing that.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Okay, no, okay, looking into it, looking into it and then I was convinced because obviously I was still praying, doing my prayers, but I was like I have the responsibility to be conscious about what I'm doing and I need to have my intentions clear. And I think every Muslim at some point gets to that, because obviously you're born into a Muslim family but at some point you become conscious and the religion is, you are to follow it. It's not your parents that are doing it. You have the free will and and you have to choose.

Michael Kimathi:

And that's what I was asking, because you were born a Muslim, right, but at some point now you become spiritually conscious. I think that's what you're calling conscious, because now you're questioning things, trying to find out am I living right? Is my spirit nourished? Now you do the research, you're more informed, you make conscious decisions that you know. Of course, they're supported by the way the religion is teaching me, and even confirming with different other religions, that there are these similarities, there are these differences, and I think I want to follow these ways.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yes, this makes more sense to me.

Michael Kimathi:

I'm going there mmm, I mean that's that's makes a lot of sense. So you start now wearing a job. No, that's not when I start. Okay, that's interesting.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I'm still learning, making some research. Yeah, this is now high school?

Michael Kimathi:

this is not high school. You know, you go patting well. You know, did you go partying? Well, I went to a nightclub once.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

My parents were actually very open about me trying and testing things. So, I think that's also why I was not rebelling crazily, because I have a lot of energy. You know and they would not try to constrain me. Okay, you want to do that. Okay, when do you want to go there? Who are you going to go there with?

Michael Kimathi:

Just to make sure you are safe.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Or they would just go with me, drop me there, know where I am. We would have parties with my friends, stay until maybe midnight, and then my dad would come and pick me up, or my mom, and that's how I knew that actually, these things I don't want, these things I want.

Michael Kimathi:

So you could make a conscious decision that I want to do these After going to a nightclub the first time.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I'm like nah nah.

Michael Kimathi:

You just went the first time and that's it. You've never had to be a nightclub ever.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

No, I'm like no, this no.

Michael Kimathi:

Ah, interesting stuff. So who later years, or maybe as you, as you grow um go to a nightclub? Well, I sincerely doubt it yeah yes the noise that looks like that experience wasn't so good, but that no it's not that it was not good, but it was actually fun.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yeah, at some level it was fun. Yeah, but I just realized that this is not my kind of vibe and it does not match with my values you know, like it is not my idea of fun you know, busting my tear, my ears with loud noise people rubbing against each other in the dark dancing, you know yeah, it was not my time, like well, so the nadir part of you kicked on yeah, let me, let, let people do that. This is not for me. Let me have fun somewhere else interesting.

Michael Kimathi:

So what did you start doing for fun? Or what were you doing for fun that you found that you know what, when you know my nadir thing, I'm not searching about different stuff, I I can do this and feel, you know, I'm okay.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Well, I used to. I mean, I was still reading, I still loved reading. I was reading electronic books. I was reading, talking with my friends. I enjoyed talking with my friends. I enjoyed talking with my friends. I enjoyed having outdoor activities. That is like hiking, walking, cycling, yeah at that time I was not hiking yet, I just enjoyed because I was still practicing martial arts. I was still doing taekwondo and that was still fun for me. I tried learning an instrument which ones.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Um well, we all learn one instrument at school. But I tried playing around with piano, I've tried guitar, I've tried a couple of things.

Michael Kimathi:

Nice, nice yeah do you know what? Let me tell you this I'm going to meet one, um, you know, a good engineer or a nerd who has no interest in music in one or the other. I'm yet to be that person and even if they have not started, like, experimenting with these things, they are thinking about it like what can I do with music? Right now? You know you can create music using code, right? Yes, so like music and you know people who love science is something that I think maybe I don't know if there's a study out there that can actually show the correlations of both, but yeah, oh, it's possible, I would not be surprised.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yeah, yeah.

Michael Kimathi:

That's why Steve Jobs said you know, apple is a conglomerate of artists who just happen to code. That's why everything they create is around entertainment. It's entertainment first and everything else after. But that's besides the point. So you're in high school, you complete your high school, do you perform? Or just you know? Do you say I want to move along?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Well, at that point I was supposed. I mean I wanted to study outside of the country.

Michael Kimathi:

That is France, or which country did you have in mind?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yes, I was supposed to go and study in France, but then I was selected in a university and then it just didn't pan out after that.

Michael Kimathi:

Why France?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Because it was the obvious choice In my school. It was just like that you finish high school, you go to France If you can.

Michael Kimathi:

So, out of 100 students who graduated in a single year, how many of them went to France?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I cannot say I don't know. Because, we had both, like the French program and the Senegalese program. I was doing the Senegalese program. I know some of them went, some of them didn't, because obviously it's not paid for by the government.

Michael Kimathi:

It's the parents being in it, paying for it. I thought there's a program like you know what we love you in Senegalese. You know you finish your school. If you get this grade, please come yeah.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I think it still exists for really exceptional students, and I was not one of those. I was still just yeah, okay.

Michael Kimathi:

Having good time and understanding.

Speaker 3:

I like this, okay, the other thing.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Let me just get the minimum grade required and move yeah that was just my mood.

Michael Kimathi:

So when you joined this university you said it didn't pan out what happened.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I didn't join actually the university because I did not get a visa funny enough to which university to France oh, this was in France.

Michael Kimathi:

I thought maybe this university is in no, they were in France.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

So I was accepted, but then I did not get the visa For whatever reason yeah, they don't give a reason.

Michael Kimathi:

Now that we're talking about these visas, do you think visa is something necessary in the future? Because I don't think so.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I think visa is a way to measure the value of how you consider citizens from a specific country. I think that's what it means the visa is saying this is the kind of value that we have, or this is what type of value we believe you can bring to us.

Michael Kimathi:

So it's not a matter of what value you think you can bring. Yeah, I think that's more or less someone determines that value.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Do we need you? Okay, if we need you, then maybe we're going to make it easy for you and us to communicate. That's the way I see it.

Michael Kimathi:

I mean, and that's why, also again, I feel like, okay, I can't control the continent, I can't say anything about our continent, but I feel like Africans the 54 countries for once, you know, we don't need these boundaries, we don't need these visas, because there's so much, you know, growth that would come with that, which is much faster than we are right now, and we would unlock so many other opportunities by just saying you know what, if I want to be in Cote d'Ivoire, I can just be there. There's no boundaries.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I agree, I think we should have a free like what they have in the Schengen area where people can actually move from one country Free trade zone. Yeah, something like that Person machine, something I don't know. But, where actually, even if it's in smaller groups, okay in this place when you are from one of these countries then you can move easily between you know the borders without having too much trouble because, that's also making it easy for trade.

Michael Kimathi:

It's also making it easy for collaboration, cooperation business everything and even business scale and even business.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

This just makes sense In Africa. We should not. It should not be so hard to travel in Africa.

Michael Kimathi:

Yeah, as an African, I know presidents like listen about anything and everything that's happening, you know, in their countries. Please, this is one thing that actually we need to change everything. Now that you have young guys moving everything around and creating opportunities, maybe consider now doing all these. I know it's not an easy process, it's not straightforward because there are stakeholders involved, but in one way or the other, it's for the interest of the citizens and Africans.

Speaker 3:

True, true, true true.

Michael Kimathi:

Yeah, so now these balances, you don't have the visa. What happens?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Then yeah, so I had also applied to get into med school in Senegal, in Dakar, and then that year they changed the regulations.

Michael Kimathi:

Only citizens can join.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

No, not only, but they were only allowing two Ivorians.

Michael Kimathi:

The whole country.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yeah, and I did not have the best grade.

Michael Kimathi:

Is it just one?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

med school in Senegal. It's one of the best in the whole francophone West Africa.

Michael Kimathi:

What's the name of this university?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

University, sheikh Anta Job.

Michael Kimathi:

And that's where now you realize, huh. Yeah, and I'm like okay, so I'm not going there.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Where am I going now? Yeah, so I was like okay, I still have that computer science thing. You know, I kind of like computers, you know, let me see. Yeah, and I started looking at schools and all that and I don't want to stay in the country. Let me check or let me check out other things there. And I start looking and I find an interesting school. I just write to them an email and then I'm like, okay, your school looks interesting, I want to study there wait a minute.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

You're doing all these on your own uh, yes, I'm having receiving help from one of my cousins like giving me advice. Oh, you can check this one out and I. I was checking on my own, but yeah, so my parents were like pick what you want to study.

Michael Kimathi:

They were not involved.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

No, Obviously, they would give me advice and I would say, okay, have you thought of this, Did you consider this? And then I would be like, okay, yeah, actually no let me go there so they never forced me. Okay, you absolutely have to study this no, and that's how you get to Cote d'Ivoire yes, by the way, in the meantime, I used to come for, like vacations holidays every two years oh okay, how long did you stay for these vacations? It was usually two, three months summer vacations so I like that.

Michael Kimathi:

So there is summer in Evercrest I mean I was.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I'm saying summer so that people understand that it's the gap that you have between the end of the year and then when you're about supposed to start school again next year. You have that, you know, those couple of weeks all the weeks, okay, yes, I would go and stay there, but summer I mean. When I mean summer, you only have two things Is it raining or it's hot.

Michael Kimathi:

You know, Because when you say summer, I think for me what kicks in Like two, three months.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yeah, it's two, three months.

Michael Kimathi:

Which is actually not Christmas time, and it's really hot it's usually between June and late August, maybe beginning of september, because the school start like early september, mid-september, end of september, but it would start in september yeah, yeah is. Is there that in senegal? Yeah, besides the universities and colleges just the primary school and is there summer break?

Michael Kimathi:

yes okay, yeah, for us actually, we just do one month, like now. After corona, people go home for three days. I think this is the first time they'll go for a long, long break whereby it will be like, I think, a month and a half, which is amazing because they have been back to back in the last two years. So therefore it's good to know that on this other side of the continent there's summer break, there's all that break. Now you go back now to Ivory Coast. Do you find it hard to adopt the education system to catch up with the know, the culture and everything?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

or senegal culture and, iver course, culture is almost similar well, they are a bit different and, uh, obviously I can feel the difference because, um, then I'm in university with students who I have not shared the same experiences with. I have no idea what kind of games they played as kids, and I speak differently. My vocabulary is different from theirs. Because you know, there's what you learn at school, and then there's you know how you're brought up? Yes, and the way people, the youth, speaks. I don't speak like them.

Michael Kimathi:

So is there like a dialect or not?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Shang.

Michael Kimathi:

Yes, we do have here there is Shang, but also, you know, in Nigeria there is Pinyin.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yes, is there like that? Yes, I think everywhere you have those words when youth can communicate without adult interfering with that. There's always that we call it Nushi.

Michael Kimathi:

You want to say a few things that are really interesting.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I don't know what to say.

Michael Kimathi:

What have you just said I?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

don't know what to say. Nice nice.

Michael Kimathi:

Okay, I don't know what you just said, but it sounds interesting. So you started out even adopting that, learning that yes.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I had to learn very quickly. I had to learn very quickly. I had to learn very quickly. But thankfully I was not bad with languages, so I would get it very quickly. I did not have a very big Senegalese accent because I was Growing up I used to be able to switch between the Senegalese accent and the Iborian accent. So it was In terms of accent, it was not. So it was in terms of accent, it was not the hardest, but in terms of vocabulary, I had to adapt. I was like, okay, let me just see what these guys are doing and I would go out my classmates, I would go to the place where they would eat. I would eat there, even if it didn't really match my taste. I really just wanted to know okay, ah, this is how it did it here, you know oh, this is the places that they go I

Michael Kimathi:

wanted to adapt so I was able to switch and so that even the the mode of piradi would be, you know, like a local and and you won't feel, like you know, I'm like you know senegalese is trying to adopt, whereas when I'm a librarian. I feel you, so the pressure was too much.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Not that much, but it's easier when you can blend in sometimes.

Michael Kimathi:

Not always, but sometimes it's better. So you do computer science.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yes, software engineering and networks those are three things right.

Michael Kimathi:

What was the course? Was it software engineering networks?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Both software engineering and networks. So we were also doing those 3G, 4g, ip something, everything All of it networks, local networks wide area networks, All of those things, IP addresses doing the math, Building local networks we would do all that.

Michael Kimathi:

And this is where now you are six ladies, yes, local networks.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

We would do all that, and this is where now you are six ladies.

Michael Kimathi:

Yes, yes, or should I use the acronym that you guys were given Boys?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

with hair.

Michael Kimathi:

Did that motivate you?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Well, yes.

Michael Kimathi:

I want to prove a point around here.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yes, because I was like.

Speaker 3:

I get motivated when people tell me that I cannot do it because, I'm a woman that you can't do it because you're a woman.

Michael Kimathi:

I get very excited. That's the best motivation. Yeah, I get excited.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Because I will show you. I will show you I will be better than all of you. I will work on it. I will work hard, I'll get it. If I'm not in front of all of you men who are saying that I cannot do it yeah.

Michael Kimathi:

so what you're saying to any lady out there because this happens a lot, consciously or subconsciously is that that should be a motivation, not a demotivation just to look and say maybe I can't, and also put yourself out there. Because from what I'm hearing from you is that you not just take that as a challenge, but also you ask yourself what am I not doing right? Is it because I'm a human? What do I need to know? You know, and you started becoming inquisitive Even when you're in primary school. Actually, this was happening without maybe your knowledge or something in primary school. Actually, this was happening without maybe your knowledge or something, but we started this inquisitive. You know kind of culture or habits at that stage. So, at this level, how are you performing? Are you still?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Very good. Yeah, I'm the best You're kicking asses. Yes, because now it's something that I actually I'm interested in. Yeah, and people are telling me that I cannot. But, then I we had our director of studies was a woman, very long dreadlocks, smart, everything I'm like yes, I had a model, you know so.

Speaker 3:

I'm like hey, it is possible yeah.

Michael Kimathi:

For me. For me, it was not an option, like being good was not an option anymore. I had to be great. Did you reach out to her once in a while to ask her?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

what was the secret? I mean, no, she was just like I know that you are smart, keep doing your thing. Because she could see I had a really strong, I still have a really strong character so she also trusted you to deliver.

Michael Kimathi:

Yes, and I think it helped being trusted.

Speaker 3:

Oh, you can do it, trusted you to deliver.

Michael Kimathi:

Yes, I see.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

And I think it helped.

Michael Kimathi:

Being trusted, Like oh, you can do it.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

If someone is actually not doubting you, you feel like, hey, you can do it. That person, very smart, is believing in me. You know.

Michael Kimathi:

I mean, I hear that and actually I think that's very important, because even when you're even that was your parent did like you want to go out, we'll take you out. What time do you, what time am I supposed to pick you? And then at that point you felt like you know, I'm trusted, I need to make the right decision and also it's for me, not for them, right? So I think that's something also you know our listeners can pick from that. So how many years do you spend in this? Computer networks and software engineering?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I would say five, six, seven years, because I started being very active. People wanted to include me into the computer sciences club. English speaking club and I think that's when I actually started doing more about getting more into leadership okay people um, people around me will pick me out and okay, we want you to lead us because, I, I for me, I would, I would get invested without even thinking about oh, I want to lead it. No but, there's something happening. Okay, what can we do? What?

Speaker 3:

is the problem.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

How do you make it happen? So second year I became the president of the Computer Science Club. Very interesting, very challenging.

Michael Kimathi:

What does that mean? Being a president?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

It means a lot of things. It means that now you actually have people who are trusting you to deliver. They put their trust in you, so you actually have.

Michael Kimathi:

And what does this delivery look like, if I may ask?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Well, at the Computer Science Club. Basically, my goal was to make sure that students had access to the professional world, that they were actually learning the tools that they will need to get into the market, and that they were good.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

If they were having issues in classes, they would just come hey, we're having issues. If it was very common, then we organize activities where some of the good ones will help some of the weaker ones. And then we have discussions around that We'll bring in professionals in cybersecurity or in software engineering. Come and talk to them. We will go to hackathons, organize it, making sure that they are actually getting a taste of software engineering in real life, in spite of just what we are learning at school, because sometimes there's a gap in the technologies that you learn in school and those that are actually being in use on the market A huge, huge gap, and I like that you notice this at that level.

Michael Kimathi:

So does this actually even also motivate you to learn more before when you graduate? Yes, so which was your first language to learn in school?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

In school or outside of school In school. I think it was C.

Michael Kimathi:

And then did you do like C Java. You know that kind of stuff.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yes, it was C. I also did Pascal.

Michael Kimathi:

Oh, pascal, I did C, I did Pascal. Yes, I did Visual Basic 6.0.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I did C Sharp C++ yeah.

Michael Kimathi:

And out of school.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I did. I mean, obviously web-based thing is HP JavaScript.

Speaker 3:

I did a little bit of JavaScript but, not much, yeah, Python which I'm still using now.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I'm transitioning to other things, but yeah, those are the languages that I would use, obviously. You know managing databases.

Michael Kimathi:

you also had those database management systems as well, you know, yeah, and this is also your first time to be recognized as a leader, right? Is this the same time that you were involved with Mandela Foundation?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

The Mandela Washington Fellowship.

Michael Kimathi:

No, that's later on After school.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

In during. That is why, actually, I didn't finish my master's quickly, because I went for the program.

Michael Kimathi:

You did your master's. Yes.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

After six your master's yes.

Michael Kimathi:

After six years of undergrad.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Undergrad was three years, but the way the school was organized it took longer than that. Okay, so I think I spent four years being undergrads. I mean, that's where I get involved in things and then I meet people. I participate in startup weekend. I go to hackathons and I actually learn about the tech ecosystem.

Michael Kimathi:

I hear about GDGs, I hear about Women Techmakers and all that and you have been involved with that in the whole country. Yes, to an extent that you have influenced a whole movement in Ivory Coast.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Well.

Michael Kimathi:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, mariam, we know these things, yeah, and it's an amazing thing because, at the end of the day, it goes even beyond what you could do as a person, to an extent that even other ladies, other developers you know, other engineers, felt like you know this is doable, this is possible, right? That's true, and do you think communities developer communities has this influence of changing the dynamics of how people learn, how people get engaged? And if it does, what are some of the things that you can share that made things work for you as a community leader as a community leader.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Well, first developers, what happens is when we have these communities, it's usually we started, as when we were still students you know so we are still very eager you know, we're still frustrated. We have that strength, that energy. We want to make things happen you know, so when you have all of that fire, all of that energy, all to make things happen, yeah, you know.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

So when you have all of that fire, all of that energy, all of that positive attitude that we want to make things happen, yeah and then developers meet and they start creating things they start, you know, creating bonds, and those are the people who, when they get into companies or when they uh have startups, they actually have a change because they are the one who are deciding the technologies the company uses at some point. They actually have a change because they are the ones who are deciding the technologies the company uses at some point, because they then grow they then move into their careers and they have all of that experience, all of that background that they use in order to influence decision-making.

Michael Kimathi:

Yeah, so that's very important, even for the new technologies. So you as a leader, one of the things that actually made you involve developers at different levels over time, what is that? One thing.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

What made me want to no, no, no.

Michael Kimathi:

Let me give you a case in point. So you organize events, right, you organize archivists and you know, with the kind of events that you're organizing, people don't pay, right?

Speaker 3:

No, they don't.

Michael Kimathi:

So what do you think made them keep coming?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Let me start with me.

Speaker 3:

What made me go to hackathons?

Michael Kimathi:

No, no, no.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

What made me go to hackathons and I think also what motivated others is to build new things, the fact that they just want to try. Is it a thing that I don't know yet?

Speaker 3:

Being curious.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I like shaping Africa. We want to shape Africa, african developers want to shape Africa, but they also know that they need the experience. Okay, so where do I get that experience? In those hackathons, you have experienced people. You have those who are starting out and you have those who are just trying to find a way around. And then when you bring those people with different levels of experience, and knowledge then that's what happens Like oh okay, this is what.

Michael Kimathi:

Let me tell you something very funny.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I was so unknowledgeable during my first hackathon. People were like okay, you lead People older than me who had a lot of experiences. I was not even working for a company.

Speaker 3:

I knew nothing yeah.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

And then that's when you realize you actually have to be able to be humble.

Speaker 3:

You have to listen, yeah.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yeah, because you have the person who is in charge is not always the most knowledgeable person.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, who is in charge is not always the most knowledgeable person.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

It's not always the one with the most experience and knowledge, so you have to listen. Okay, what are these people telling me?

Michael Kimathi:

Okay this is what it means.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

How do we make something happen with that?

Michael Kimathi:

How do?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

we manage relationships between younger people and older people, and how does that work? Because younger people need what the older generation has. Older generations also don't have the youth and the energy and the new things that the young ones are bringing. You have to find a way around that.

Michael Kimathi:

Also. Now it becomes like a full iteration whereby you are curious about meeting new people, you are learning new knowledge, and then these people also. They find that they are also growing because they're understanding the young guys. The young guys can get to meet older people with experience, and it's a full circle. How it works? Amazing stuff. You finished your undergrad right and graduate, so what made you go back for master's?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

It was always in my plan.

Michael Kimathi:

Okay, so you'll do up to master's PhD and all this.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yes, For me, not always, but having master's was just for me, it's just obvious.

Speaker 3:

You do your master's.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

You're going to graduate. You do master's.

Michael Kimathi:

That's it. Maybe multiple master's but you do at least one master's.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

That was always obvious for me. And still in computing, no other masters in other things, or maybe more specialized masters.

Michael Kimathi:

Oh, I see, I see. So okay, yeah, because like some of my colleagues who we graduated with, I'm like they go for masters, you know things to do with MBA and all that and I'm like, okay, that I understand you want to know how management works, how business works, how can you scale business. But if you go and do maybe say computer science, you can only code so much, right. But I understand if someone maybe wants to focus with AI or information systems, it's also understandable. But for me, if your key focus is to build solutions, there are a couple of routes that actually you can take. One you can keep building these solutions and teaching yourself how to build them, which actually is longer, but also it's really worth it over time because you are learning as you're doing it, which also I think most of the undergrads understand over time.

Michael Kimathi:

Either the hard way or the easy way, such that the easy way they join the community, they understand this how to learn things faster and implement them. Or the hard way, where they fail the exam or their project and they're like why is Mariam building a good project than me? And then they realize Mariam belongs to different communities and he has access of special knowledge that is out there in the industry and I don't, but those are just scenarios. And I in the industry and I don't, but those are just scenarios. So and I'm not discouraging anyone to do master's, please, by all means, even PhD if you want, because also we need research, we need all these other, you know, aspect of growth and knowledge accumulation. So once you graduated, you did your master's, did you finish it? You said you didn't.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yes, I've kind of finished it, but I did not like submit my paper yet.

Michael Kimathi:

Why not the thesis?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Well, I've been volunteering a lot and work because I'm also a global shaper now since 2019. And then I've been doing traveling a little bit and that took a little bit of time, but yeah.

Michael Kimathi:

I want to finish it, so how have you been volunteering?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

So I mean being a GDG college volunteering. Being a woman tech maker ambassador is volunteering.

Michael Kimathi:

Being a global shaper is also volunteering can you please tell us what these things mean because, like GDG, understand it's group. But what is that for you every day? Uh, women, tech makers, you know, and all these other, you know opportunities that you create so gdg first yeah please.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

So for me, gdg is bringing the community together yeah um trying out using the tools um that google is putting out for developers testing it out, seeing what works for us what doesn't work. What we can give feedback. Because they also give access sometimes to free tools that developers can use and test, because obviously most of Developers are broke.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Let us try, Guys, let us test, and they have tools to build that experience. So it's that it's also again sharing experiences with those who've been there for a while. When I take Women Techniques Ambassador, as I told you, there were not many women in my classes throughout my undergrad and even during my master's degree.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Not many women in my classes throughout my undergrad and even during my master's degree yeah not many women and uh, and there's a lot of um, stigma, a lot of um, I want to say trauma. There's a lot of uh in that field, you know, there's a lot of nah, there's a lot of women should not there's a lot of gatekeeping um, there are many many minutes. Yes, what do you mean? There's not a lot of women, should not? There's a lot?

Speaker 3:

of gatekeeping.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

There are many, many things there are many.

Michael Kimathi:

Yes, what do you mean?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

there's a lot of gatekeeping there is gatekeeping, there is gatekeeping.

Michael Kimathi:

Like there are women who don't want other women to thrive.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yes, and there are also men who sometimes, you know, because of sometimes people's traditions and culture, they feel like, oh, women should not be doing this.

Michael Kimathi:

Yeah, do they consider it like a zero-sum game? If there are more women, then it means less jobs for us, or less jobs for us.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

No, I think it's more about mainly ego. Like that, woman cannot be on top of me. Because if you have the potential and the knowledge and experience, it makes sense that you know you're probably leading a team with men in it. But yeah, you will find men who will just be like, no, that's a woman.

Michael Kimathi:

No, she cannot be, so the discussion starts from.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

You are a woman, yes, you are a woman is a problem. Your woman is a problem.

Michael Kimathi:

But what you?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

are a woman is a problem. You're a woman is a problem. But you know, once one of my classmates wrote to me on Messenger and he was like, ah, you're so good at what you're doing for a woman.

Michael Kimathi:

Okay, I was like, ah, bro don't do that Chill, because even in classroom.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I am better than you. You are in the back way, at the back in all of the programming classes. No, when do you even get that fierceness? Why are you proud? Do better.

Michael Kimathi:

That's what he said.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I told him for a woman, what do you mean? And he's like yeah, you know, for a woman and everything. I'm like no, this is not a compliment, this is an insult. If you want to say I'm good, say I'm good.

Speaker 3:

That's it.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Because even between my peers, men and women, I'm good. And why should I be good?

Michael Kimathi:

for a woman. Do you see that? I see it.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

When a man is good, they're not saying you're good for a man. For sure, for a man you're good. They're not saying that they, you know, for men you're good, you're good, you're good, yeah, you feel good, you're good, yeah.

Michael Kimathi:

If you're not, you're not, yeah, okay, it's just brain yeah, and their thoughts, and you know that, you know the curiosity and you know putting your best foot forward. So yeah, yeah I mean that makes a lot of sense. So what other experiences? Like women in tech? What is, what does that entail? Like? Do only women come for these events?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

No, those events are open to both men and women. Actually, we encourage men to come so that they can understand the bias and sometimes the discrimination that is happening, so that they can help building those inclusive communities because, putting men on the side of the conversation does not make sense. They are included in this conversation. They need to know what is happening, because when you're outside of something sometimes you might have issues understanding the scale or the scope of it, but you need to be included in the discussion.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

It could be talks with women who are already in the field or sharing their experiences. Okay, so this is what I went through and this is where I am. These are the tactics who are sharing their experiences. Okay, so this is what I went through and this is who I am. These are the tactics, the strategies that you can use, you know, to move on with your career in that field, despite all the struggle. You know basically giving hope, giving proper tools and saying that this is possible. If this is what you want, it is possible.

Michael Kimathi:

Yeah, yeah. So it's more like you know, if this is what you want, it is possible, yeah, yeah. So it's more like you know, finding a place where you know you can say it's doable, you can do it. Someone has done it, you know, and this is the way to do it.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

There is a way to do it.

Michael Kimathi:

So do you guys like, do code. You know like you know designs.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Women tech. I mean, it's women tech makers. But the tech is not only software engineering.

Michael Kimathi:

I've never seen women in tech that that don't code. They just meet and have discussions, but that actually didn't end well. So that's why, if anyone actually is in, their intention is to empower or just give the platform to women number one, if you want them to be good in engineering, they have to do it. Whichever engineering you know line they want to follow. It's not a matter of just motivating people and chest thumping and showcasing of people who are ready. No, you have to do it.

Speaker 3:

Yes, I mean.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I understand. Because when you are, told repeatedly that this is not and you cannot do it. I understand, because when you are told repeatedly that this is not and you cannot do it, it is important to know that some people have already done it, that you're not crazy, you can do it. That is very important Representation matters. People don't know that, but if you see girls not thinking about science jobs, it's because in their minds most of the time this is not even an option.

Michael Kimathi:

So already they have been put in a place.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

They have been put in a place. You, your job is either to get married or you get those. I mean what people would call the job. That are actually not easy jobs, but they think it fits better the mind of a girl.

Michael Kimathi:

Not that being married is a bad thing. No, no, no, I'm not even talking about marriage.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I'm talking about. You know, I'm not denigrating anyone, but they will tell you that being a hairdresser is more for women, for example. You know cooking is more for women, they will say okay, go and make clothes, it's more for women. So I'm talking, those are more manual. Of course it needs creativity. Those are arts you know, but then when it comes to science and maths, they will tell you that this is not made for the brain of the woman which is crazy because the first developers were women, but yeah.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

That's because I mean even during those events? To add on to what you're saying there are technical sessions. Women don't just come and talk.

Michael Kimathi:

Oh yes, girls, you can do it, no, there are actually technical sessions.

Michael Kimathi:

Yeah, that's beautiful because, at the end of the day, that's what I think should happen, because even when men, whatever, because I run a couple of communities and one of the things I don't say, you know this is for men or for women but number one thing is that I try to make, whenever the time is available, as long as you know, presenting different principles, practices and you know ideologies. There has to be practicality in most of them so that you don't just you know, feel good and and think that you know what I learned something, whereas you didn't do it, because I I believe in learning by doing yeah especially for sciences.

Michael Kimathi:

You know other things.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

You can just learn and have that information and use it in different places but if you don't do that, but you do have gd women yeah yeah, you do have it yeah yeah, there are women in gdgs, but on top of that we may need the space why, we need the space because yeah we are a minority in the field and we are not receiving sometimes.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I mean now it's not really the case. A lot of companies and organizations are realizing that we actually need to make it more equal for both men and women. I am not part of those who think that if there's a job opportunity, we should just give it to women. To have a balance Okay, equal men, equal women no, For me. If you're actually hiring that woman, it means that she actually has the skills.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

She's not there just to reach a quota. You have to reach a quota of women. No, she actually has to be there because she has the skills.

Michael Kimathi:

Yeah, I think that's the right mindset. I'll tell you why. And that's something else I wanted to tell you. Like you say, women need their space. You know they're the minority. I was almost saying that you know there are other places that women actually are like 90% Hands down right. But you know we would not find men saying you know what we need to equalize. So it's all a matter of like saying Give an example, Give an example Hospitality right.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

What is hospitality?

Michael Kimathi:

That is like hotel catering and all that.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Really 90%. Yeah, a woman. Yeah, that was not a way for me to see men, you see men yeah, but there are places where they are 90% Interesting.

Michael Kimathi:

And you have men who are doing indentures, like maybe a chef or something.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

But then the question is when those men try to get there, nobody's stopping them, but when women try to get into tech yes people are stopping them.

Michael Kimathi:

That is wrong and I agree with you. If someone, for instance, wants to be, say, a pilot right, and someone just disqualifies you because you're just a woman, that's purely wrong. Actually, I would say even it's criminal.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

But it's the reality.

Michael Kimathi:

But if you're good.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Even the data is still proving that even women who are doing the same job as a man with the same experience are still being paid and is what. That is why you need all those things, let me give you an example women, um, even when I mean I'm generalizing here when they are raised they are being told um.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

We tell boys to we let boys play and fail and crash and hurt themselves. But we tell boys to we let boys play and fail and crash and hurt themselves. But we tell girls no, don't do that, you're going to harm yourself.

Michael Kimathi:

True or false. That's what happens and that's from a point of love. It's not necessary when it's coming from.

Speaker 3:

I'm not going to discuss with people's?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

intentions.

Speaker 3:

But what I do know, what I do know is that they?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

are taught to be more reserved when men are encouraged to test.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

You know to go and you know fail, when you hurt yourself, they're like yes, you're a boy, you know, don't cry. And also, by the way, that's putting another kind of pressure on men. But then, when you reach that level, men then dare more, because that's how they are raised. Because that's how they are raised, women will dare more. I have a point that I want to show you quickly Women will dare more Even when it comes. So when I'm saying women are being paid more, being paid less, it's for multiple reasons Men and that is data. We have the data that proves that men are more likely to negotiate the salary than women. When there's a job opportunity, a man, if he feels in 20, 30% of the characters, maybe 40, like yeah maybe go bam A woman unless she's like 100% sure that I match the description.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

description she's not applying yeah, there's that yeah you know, and that's data. I'm telling you data. It's not just like my environment, because when we have our own environment, we could be biased, but this is data you know. So there are multiple reasons due to multiple factors. You know where you grew up everything your parents, the way you were raised a lot of yeah not every girl had the chance to have parents. I mean who like go martial arts go.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

So many parents don't accept that their girls are going to do martial arts. You know, oh, that's such a manly thing. You know raising your legs. You know, and uh, yeah, so we need to be able to open that space so that they know out. This is you can actually negotiate your salary. Do you know that you can? This is how you do it you know, you can actually try more.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

There was a. You know, there was a study that um was made and I'm probably not going to relate the fact exactly, but it was. So you put girls in a room and boys in a room and basically students, and they will be playing a game, kind of like a war game. Okay, so when the students were looking, the girls were playing, you know nicely, and everything. The boys were very aggressive. And then when the students are out, the girls become very aggressive even better. Yes, do you know why? Because, statistically, when women are more assertive, they are seen to be too severe or too aggressive, but when a man does the same, he's seen to be oh, actually, he's a leader.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

You know, leader, he's displaying some really interesting skills and women get that very quickly, even if they cannot put the point on it, they know they know they were not aware that this was a test, but that is exactly what happened. Women know if you are in a professional environment, especially for women in leadership positions. They know if you are in a professional environment, especially for women in leadership positions. They know if you're wearing pants and you're very straight. People are more likely to categorize that woman as being too severe. She's extra, she's really mean.

Michael Kimathi:

When a man acting the same way no he has strong leadership Wearing the same pants.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I mean, the pants are just here too, yeah, but to let you know that she's basically doing her own thing.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Having her doing having her own character doing leader doing the same. She, literally. It's like there was even a study that was made again where they would give the scenario. In one scenario it's a man, they will let you know that it's a man that is doing the thing, yeah, and then they will let people appreciate. And in the other scenario they'll let you know that it's a woman. The reactions are not the same but it is exactly the same story. You take two groups. One group give you one story but it's a man. The other group will give give you one same story but it's a woman. Obvious In one that lead is very aggressive. You know it's too extra, very emotional and all that. But in the other, very, very good.

Michael Kimathi:

Let me ask you, mariam, you know all factors are constant the way they are right now. Do you think men are required to be more responsible? There is so much expected of them that they feel this pressure of like you know what? I would prefer maybe to get that job because I need to pay the bills, maybe I need to take care of my wife, I need to take care of maybe even my siblings and all that. And I'm not saying that women don't do all that. But when it gets to where there's a relationship, which I think you're saying, that's not basically the line for all women, which is okay for whoever chooses that. But do you think, even over time, there's always even the cultures whereby a man has to do A, b, c, d as a man and for a woman, she needs to be taken care of.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I do not understand the question.

Michael Kimathi:

So let me rephrase it For a woman who is mature enough and needs to take care of all these bills and whatever food, housing, medical, everything it is automatically an expectation of a man to be able to do all that. It goes without saying, Even right now, women who work, they get paid better and all that.

Michael Kimathi:

But still if a man depends on a woman, it's, you know. If a man, like you know, depends on a woman, there's even loss of. I've had loss of respect I've had and I'm not talking about other countries, maybe other countries the culture is different, you know, maybe they are aware, they have practiced this over 200 years and everything is okay for them. Okay for them and uh. But here in africa, where we are, where we plan to change, where I think all these dynamics work, don't you feel that actually even puts more pressure to an african man to think, like you know what? I need to be competitive, I need to be out there, not only even to other women, but also for myself, so that, in case I settle down, I have a woman, I have children, I am a man, I am a man of the house, I'm able to take care of all these things, and I'm not doing this so that other women don't get this opportunity.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Okay, yeah so I think get your point so I'm not a man, so I might not have that insight that a man would have. But, um, I do know that sometimes also, uh, in certain aspects, society puts pressure on men men are told uh cannot cry.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Men are told, oh, you have to be, you have to to carry financially the family. Uh, men are this. Men are told that and it also puts some emotional weight and actually it puts pressure on them, but it's also not everywhere there. I'm not going to go and compare women's struggle with men's struggle because I don't believe invalidating someone's struggle is the way forward.

Michael Kimathi:

No, I'm not invalidating anyone's struggle. All I'm saying is this and, by the way, that's what you use, like you know, when a man is put here and a woman is put here, there's this and that. Of course, it's just comparative.

Michael Kimathi:

And just to see, because, at the end of the day, we might also say you know, even women in STEM are not getting these opportunities just because they're women. There are other factors that actually are underlying, that have been over and over. It's like a culture that if you don't have this kind of a job, for instance, or if you don't perform well like this, or if you're not resilient when it comes to externalities, like you are in violence, you need to protect your. There are several other factors, but this is not the place to list them. I think I get it your.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

There are several other factors, but this is not the place to, like you know, listen, I think again. So for me, um, that is my point of view every, every couple and every family family has the right to choose and define what works for them. In an ideal world, the man is there or the companions are there. They are choosing, depending on their own strengths and skills, what their responsibilities are in that tandem.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I do this, you do that. I actually enjoy doing this. Eventually doing that, we balance it that way, but the thing that we both don't like, we try to find a way to manage it. That's the way I see things. There should not be, for me, a standard norm that every couple have to apply. If you're not doing it, then you're bad. It is fine for men to be open to discuss, to communicate those things, to have their own spaces to communicate those things you know, to have their own spaces to change that norm, but it also has to come from them.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

You know it's like you cannot help someone who is not trying to be helped.

Michael Kimathi:

I don't know if you get my point. I see what you are doing here, mariam. You know when it gets to men and why they are doing stuff you're like you know.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

No, I don't have the data, so it is hard for me to speak about it.

Michael Kimathi:

I do not like talking about a subject that I don't know, but I do see the struggle that some men are facing. I'm not going to lie about it.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Sometimes they have a lot of pressure. There are good men out there who have a lot of pressure that they should not be having. Sometimes people also don't have the choice. But the same way you see men carrying their families, I've seen women carrying their family. You know that I'm not going to talk about other countries, but in my country, like the family, in the family entity, like women are the one paying for the children's schools.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

In reality, Because what happens at the end of the day is that we find a lot of single women at some point, and women are the one who will invest like 100% of their income on their family and that would not be the case if there was polygamists, as it used to be. Well, I'm not equipped to discuss this subject.

Michael Kimathi:

I mean, the thing that I feel and this is my personal opinion, it doesn't have to be your opinion or anything is that Africans used to be like you can marry more than one wife, just manage your family wherever and make sure that you know you're responsible to all these decisions that you make. But you know there are all these other, and this has been happening for the last 100 years, if you think about it. Well, but you're told. You know, marrying more than one wife is wrong religious wise, even some. There are churches if you're Catholic wives, even some churches. If you're Catholic, if you marry more than one wife, they do not recognize you as a Christian anymore.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I feel like you're saying one thing and the opposite, because earlier you were saying that men are receiving a lot of pressure because they're supposed to carry their family financially, but now you're saying that back in the time men used to want to take care of so many wives does that even help them, like in terms of finance, to be honest I don't know about the subjects.

Michael Kimathi:

I'm not going to say the things that I don't know for sure, for sure, let me.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I'm really just asking to understand yeah, for sure, because between what you said and what you're saying, and I totally understand you and, by the way, before it was all about money.

Michael Kimathi:

So, and these people who actually would marry more than one wife, it was because they wanted to bring more trouble to them and they could not afford.

Michael Kimathi:

This is someone who maybe has I don't know how many cattle, head of cattle, or they have a big farm or whatever, so they're able to afford that. So rather than just being you know selfish and saying you know what, let me have all this for myself. I'm not saying it's the right decision or the wrong decision, but that also meant that if, for instance, the reason I feel like maybe we have single ladies, we have all this and that or mothers who don't have husbands and they have to take care of everything, because there's maybe a man somewhere who could not take two women as their wife and recognize each other and love them Because it's your responsibility, you made that child, right. And also maybe they don't want to take care of the kid for whatever reason, right? So it's not only the woman's fault or the man's fault. There are so many other factors that underlie there. That actually needs to be addressed openly by saying look statistically and this data there are more women than men, right?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Actually, that data is not true. You actually have more men than women In the world.

Michael Kimathi:

You're sure about that? Yes, okay.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

So it is true. It is true, yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, is it is true?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

it is true, yeah and yeah, um. Yeah, it is true, you have more, more men than women and, like I don't think the issue of single mothers is about men not being able to take one wife or 100 wives, I think there are a lot of issues that are behind that. It is also sometimes a choice from a woman. It is also sometimes in terms of a situation, but we do find situations in which you could have a single mother but the father is implicated in his child's life, but that is actually not the case.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

So you would find a lot of situations where the man is not even there and then appears somewhere when the kid is 16 15 17 18 you know, so there's like um, not taking responsibility sometimes now the reasons I don't know. People have a lot of challenges. People are facing a lot of different experiences you know, you cannot just go and give an explanation for one and then you know, dismiss this. And they say these ones are the worst. Oh no, you cannot do that because every situation is different. But yeah, yeah. I don't think it's a matter of whether the man could not marry multiple wives.

Michael Kimathi:

No, I say this is my own opinion because I feel like and of course you're right, I just checked out there are like more men, but just a small percentage more than women.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

So that is not the excuse anymore for polygamy.

Michael Kimathi:

I mean? I mean, if they are like in Kenya. I think we used to say these I don't know how true this is like they are like three women for one man in Kenya right.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I'm wondering where they got that data.

Michael Kimathi:

Data is important, I need to check that again to affirm if that's true, because this? I need to check that again to affirm if that's true, because this might have changed or it's not true altogether, and I think this kind of misinformation actually makes people make wrong decisions. Right, it is. Whereas, yeah, so in Kenya there are 27.66 million male and then there is 27.32 million females, yeah, which is slightly more so. Yeah, that's besides the point. So there is also gender-based violence. There is marriage that break up, people die, right? So there are so many other underlying factors and I think it's a good discussion to have, because, as much as you want people to build solutions, people to use solutions, there are a couple of things that actually can inform that paradigm shift of as much as you want equal opportunity for everyone.

Michael Kimathi:

How can we do this in a good way, in a responsible way, so that it doesn't become a zero-sum game whereby certain gender, over time, they feel like you know what? These guys started a movement, now we are losing. It should not be a competition. It should be like we can get there, we can learn from other cultures, we can learn from people who already have done it to some extent and see, was it a perfect example, let us adopt it.

Michael Kimathi:

Were there mistakes made along the way, how can we do it better? And then that will make the world a better place. It will make Africa a better place. But now that's besides the point, and I think you have addressed it well, and I think we'll keep trying to evaluate some of these issues, because I feel like if we don't do that, the poverty index will not go down, because, at the end of the day, there are women who cannot actually take care of everything, given the circumstances that maybe they didn't finish their education, or there are other circumstances like they need to educate their children instead of them progressing career-wise and all those underlying factors.

Michael Kimathi:

Now, how far as I've requested, tech, ecosystem, or how does it look like at the moment and what needs to be done. You know, like right now I know you in the center of it like what, some of the things that needs to be done like what?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

some of the things that needs to be done. Some of the things that needs to be done?

Michael Kimathi:

Yeah, to take it to where it's supposed to be.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I think we need to be able to have the spaces where the youth can come and innovate.

Michael Kimathi:

You mean innovation hubs?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Yes.

Michael Kimathi:

There are no innovation hubs in Ibrocrest.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Well, I see some entities trying to create things, but at least the door is opening, but there's still a lot to get there. It's still a bit selective. You have to be in a certain environment to have access to that. And when we're talking about equal opportunities, it's equal opportunities for women, but also for people who are coming from rural areas, for people who are living inside of the country, in the capital city it's all that.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

It's more in the city so at least the door is open. But we need that place where the youth can come and safely try and test and fail because, that's the only way to learn. That's the only way to learn.

Michael Kimathi:

It's the best moment to learn. Let me ask this, now that you mentioned that, do you think maybe these engineering universities that you have in IFA, and how many of them could they maybe lead the way and say, look, we have maybe empty classes once in a while.

Michael Kimathi:

Can people use those for experiment? Or maybe they can have a space around that, because at the end of the day, there are buildings there that they can say one of these could be an innovation space that is open for graduates, undergrad or even people who have innovation around.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

I know that some of them are open to that. Some of them are open to that when we come coming and say, hey, we want to try these things out, we want to work with the students. Some of them are open about it. But now, when you're talking about innovation labs, you're also talking about resources. You don't just need an empty classroom, of course you can use it but then how do you do technology happen? You don't have a laptop. You don't have internet. How do you make that happen?

Michael Kimathi:

Some of the discussions that government should say you know what? Maybe we need to set aside some funds for that. Maybe we need an open Wi-Fi. If you're in this place, you can get the open Wi-Fi.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Oh true yeah.

Michael Kimathi:

So do you think policy needs some some? Yes, yes yes, definitely.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Uh, we definitely need to work on that aspect and and it's a bit one of the reason why I've joined the global shapers because then we are also trying to make those policies become a reality. Where have the gaps? We identify those gaps. What can we do so that this is included? What can we do so that there is no gap in the policy? We are actually including these things. We are taking them into account you know, um.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

is the law thinking about technology? Is the law thinking about innovation? Are we putting regulations in place so that you know there's gdpr? Are we putting regulations in place so, that's you know, things have a proper space to explode? Are we making it possible for startups to happen?

Michael Kimathi:

you know, is investment coming in. Investment coming in.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Are the policies actually open enough or working for the startup ecosystem? And then you know all those things, then just come in.

Michael Kimathi:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you know all those things. Then just come in, yeah, yeah, yeah, so, and what? Because you see this now goes to like, you know, a different level of conversation which actually an individual who is building solutions can, maybe will wait for some time for them to be impacted, right, what they need to do at that level. So, by the time maybe all these things are changing, they are ready for what is going to happen. What does that look like? Say, I'm a developer, right, and maybe I can't, you know, build stuff, because you know, at the end of the day, I'm like you know, after all, what will happen. Maybe I'll be frustrated, maybe there's no investment, maybe there are no customers, people don't have resources, but now there's these global shippers. That is happening and you know you're trying to influence this. So, at that point, once you're able to do that because it will happen in one way or the other over time so what do they need to be doing right now? By the time this happens, they can move to that level.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Well, they should keep doing what they are doing, because change does not happen in a day. Change is multiple people doing different work at different levels at the same time toward the same goal. So, while we're working on policies, while we are advocating, the youth is still in the in the back, doing their thing, you know, still learning, still trying to have their spaces, still being involved in those communities, still having those discussions you know yeah yeah that that has to happen so they need to sharpen their knife.

Michael Kimathi:

So for the time the meat gets ready, they're able to like be able to prepare the table and feast right.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Exactly.

Michael Kimathi:

And what we mean by that is that get your skills ready, exactly, get your you know, your best practices ready. But when this opens up because I've seen this actually happen in Kenya over time whereby people work for remote companies actually COVID-19 helped so much in that, like LeapFrog, you know people are opening companies and hiring the local talent, especially engineering, that was not there for some time. So getting their skills ready is good. So that's beautiful, mariam, and thank you so much. What is your parting shot?

Mariam Nourya Koné:

what do you want to tell?

Michael Kimathi:

developers in Cordova, or the communities there, or the customers.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

Whoever, you want to say something this time so what I want to say is do your part, work hard. Work hard, because when you have the skills, when you have the, the knowledge, when you know what you can bring to the table and the change, that can happen. People will open the doors for you or you will break those doors. Because you have it Absolutely. When people need you, they need your experience, they will take you, but for that you need to do your own part.

Mariam Nourya Koné:

You need to work hard, study, go, get the knowledge. Don't be afraid to approach those who've been through that already. They are there. Most of them are very open to help. Just send a message, send an email, be professional. Hi, I'm doing this. I need some guidance. I would like to know if this and that you would be surprised that people are very, very, very happy to help you. Yeah, do your part.

Michael Kimathi:

Work hard, amazing stuff. Thank you so much, mariam, noria, connie. So, as we conclude this, mariam is the country manager for Africa Stalking, the co-host of this show, and I'm Michael Kimadi, also from Africa Stalking and Impact Masters, and it's a beautiful, beautiful conversation that we have had here, and this is just the beginning, because we want to showcase more and more what is happening across Africa being done by different impact masters at different levels, because it takes a village. So until next time, thank you so much.

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