Impact Masters Podcast

#37 IMPACT MASTER JACK SIRO

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Ever wondered how to navigate toxic work environments while maintaining a thriving career in tech? Join us as we unlock the powerful insights from Jaxiro, a self-taught mobile app developer at Britsam, who transitioned from media to IT. Jaxiro's journey offers a wealth of knowledge on avoiding toxic work settings, excelling in mobile app development using Flutter, and balancing work-life demands effectively. This episode promises to equip you with strategies to manage your career while safeguarding your mental health.

Discover the tell-tale signs of toxic workplaces and their profound impact on mental well-being. We dissect poor communication, strained employer relations, and unfair work terms, drawing a clear line between hard work and detrimental overworking. Practical advice on setting boundaries and recognizing toxic elements in your work environment will empower you to foster a healthier, more productive work atmosphere. Our conversations span personal stories and expert insights, providing a comprehensive understanding of maintaining mental health at work.

We also spotlight the intricacies of remote work policies and the pivotal role of HR in shaping employee experiences. Featuring perspectives from Christine at Africa Stalking, we unravel the execution of workplace policies and their potential to either support or hinder employee wellness. Concluding with exciting updates on upcoming tech events in Nairobi, this episode is a treasure trove for anyone in the tech community seeking to thrive amidst challenges. Mark your calendars for the next meetup and join the movement towards making Africa a tech innovation hub.

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Speaker 2:

All right, welcome. Welcome to our guests and those joining us for our meetup this evening for the Nairobi community. The theme welcome, welcome to our guests and those joining us for our meetup this evening for the Nairobi community. The theme All right, so welcome, we will get started. Our theme this evening is toxic work environments, like we are all familiar with, and with us we have a guest, so what we will do is we will do an introduction and we'll have the guest introduce himself. From there we can get the conversation started. Remember, if you have anything you'd like to chime in or ask all through, get it noted and we will get to the conversation, because we are all chiming in to the topic. All right, awesome. So as we get started, we can introduce ourselves.

Speaker 4:

So hi, I'm Jeswat Mwangi Community Lead Africa Stalk in Nairobi.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, All right, I will introduce myself. Then our guest will finally do it, as he tells us more about himself. So my name is Sylvia Tabet, from Africa's Talking in the Developer Relations team.

Speaker 5:

Hi everyone. My name is Jaxiro. I'm a mobile app developer at Britsam, mobile app developer at Britsam, and today I'm here. We talk about the hot topic of toxic work environments. I'm happy to be here.

Speaker 2:

Awesome, awesome. Glad you're here, jack, welcome. So tell us more. You've said you're a mobile developer. Yes, tell us more about that. Is this where you're a mobile developer? Yes, tell us more about that. Is this where you started? Is this your first job? Is that what you wanted to be when you were a child? Or you wanted to be a doctor?

Speaker 5:

Many years back, I was in campus. I was doing a course that will make me to be a journalist and, fortunately, in my second year, I started to see things different. I dropped out and I came to Nairobi and I enrolled in a diploma course in a college here called KTTC. Then I started to do a diploma in ICT, but I'd actually dropped out doing a bachelor's degree in communication and media. So I still have the attributes of a journalist in me, but at the moment, I'm into software development.

Speaker 5:

I've been freelancing, and during my time that I was freelancing, I was mostly doing web development-related work, mostly working with things to do with PHP, where I worked with things like WordPress, joomla, and then, towards 2019, I had already started to work with I started to learn Android. So in the process of learning Android, I was also learning something to do with C Sharp. So these are some things that I was just learning on the side. Actually, right now, what I'm doing all of it has been more of a self-taught. What I'm doing all of it, it's been more of a self-taught, though right now I do help people to also upscale themselves, but most of what I'm doing right now it's mostly self-taught.

Speaker 5:

So I worked as a desktop app developer using C Sharp and then, as we got along, google came with Flutter and I saw Flutter could actually solve my problems, because now it's looking into mobile app development.

Speaker 5:

So having to learn Android and at the same time you go, you learn Objective C for iOS, it became like a tall order.

Speaker 5:

So that's where I got into Flutter and it's now two years I've been working actively with Flutter and I've been mostly working as a mobile app developer, though there are other times where I actually took a role of a full stack, because now sometimes when you're working in a team, if somebody has too many tasks and he can't deliver on a certain task, probably you might have to step in. So sometimes I would step in from my role as a mobile app developer and do something to do with full stack, where I worked with Laravel, and right now, if you ask me, I would say I'm sort of a multi-stack developer, but because of avoiding to get in a toxic work environment, I would prefer to actually go with one bullet so that it's easier to manage. So in my current place of work, my role is that of a mobile app developer using Flutter, but when the backend guys, they are delidaling or they are not doing a good job, I will actually knock. So that is me up to there.

Speaker 2:

Interesting, Very interesting journey you've had so far. If I may ask you transitioned from media and communications to the IT field. What drew you to IT? Or did you start working in media and comms and realize let me try something else.

Speaker 5:

Well, I would say it all started from KCS. You see, back then they were very. There were very tight standards for you to actually join a computer science or any course that is related to being a software engineer. And I didn't pass well in physics. So I asked my dad if I could do bridging so that I actually fit to go to do computer science, because when I was in high school I really wanted to do something to do with anything that was going to make me sit in front of a computer. So, dad, he refused, because now I had not passed well, I could not actually get into the government sponsored program, so I had to work with the self-sponsored one. So we looked at the university which was near home, that was Kisii University. By then it was still Kisii University College and the course that actually fit with my qualifications by then it happened to be communication and media. So that is how I got there. But I used to. I never.

Speaker 5:

After I realized we were doing less practical lessons, I started to lose the zeal. There's only one time when we actually went to a real studio and there was a time again we came to the standard offices here in Nairobi, but still it was just like a drop in the ocean. It was just like a drop in the ocean. It wasn't like it was taking me the way I wanted. So I used to find myself sometimes, when I'm free, in the computer lab and we used to have computer lab and also the libraries they used to have to. They had a computer section. So if I was not in the computer lab the main computer lab then I was in the small computer section that is in the library and I used to see when I go to the computer lab I used to go sometimes I would find what is written because computer lab was now like the classes for the computer lab. I used to go. Sometimes I would find what is written because computer lab was now like the classes for the computer science students. I used to see a bit of coding written on the board. Mostly I used to see it was when I tried to follow up. Sometimes when I actually found them, they are still there. I used to see what they were. They were running this program called NetBeans and they were doing Java. So it used to fascinate me when I see them run and you see, actually an application. So I liked it.

Speaker 5:

I actually found myself wondering how I could also get my hands on that, Because I didn't have a laptop or I didn't have a computer that I could use on my own. I only had those ones. So that is how I started to gain that. But as we, by the time I was coming to defer my my cause there, I had loose at lost focus in in the course that I was doing and I was just wondering how I could actually get myself to do something related with computer. So, actually framed a reason. I told my dad that I've been suspended because I cannot continue with this course. I've not done two exams and that is because you did not pay fees on time. So I've been told that I go relax. When I'm able to clear my past balance, I can pick up from there. So it was a valid reason.

Speaker 5:

And as we went along, an uncle of mine helped me to get an admission in a college here in Gigiri, called KTTC, to do diploma in ICT, called KTTC to do diploma in ICT. Then, from there I started to feel now my life was now moving in the right direction, because now that I was not in the university, I was spending time in the cyber cave trying to build HTML, because now I was seeing there was W3 schools. I was seeing it back in the university, I was seeing it. It was being written somewhere oh, the lesson for today. This is where you will get it and you see the address W3 schools. So I continued to learn from there.

Speaker 5:

Actually, by the time I was joining this other college Actually, by the time I was joining this other college where I was as a first year, it fascinated one of my lecturers and he went and talked to those who are outgoing Mostly they were the third years because the course was three years and they started to come to me because they thought I could help them with their projects. So by the time I was finishing my first year, I was already doing a project for people who are outgoing and it was a good way for me to make money. In fact, by the time I was now in my final year me, In fact, by the time I was now in my final year. Now, the rest of my classmates they were coming to me to do for them their projects. So I was also charging them. It's just that sometimes you would also have to give them discount because they are your classmates. But yeah, that is how I actually started into freelancing.

Speaker 2:

Interesting. It seems that it started as a passion long ago, so this passion grew and when you had the chance you took it. And they say there's usually this danger with turning your passion into your source of income right, because in some way you might lose the interest, because now it's work and it's become very serious. So now that yours is your honor at the moment, since you are a mobile developer, how many years have you been working or how is your work experience so far?

Speaker 5:

when I started I'd say from the time I graduated, around 2017, I was just doing freelancing until around 2019. That is now when I started to get employed and now work under somebody or work under certain contract. So my experience I would give it around five years and something on top of it, depending on the field.

Speaker 2:

Right. Five years plus. That's quite some time you have freelanced, meaning you have been with multiple employers. You had multiple employers.

Speaker 5:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

Yes, interesting. So that is directly in theme to what we have today, which is toxic work environments. Since now you seem to have quite the experience, five years plus, and quite a number of employers, this will be something you can easily speak about. Yeah, something you can easily speak about.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, so a quick one before we get into. If you're not behind your laptop, what's your hobby?

Speaker 5:

If I'm not behind my laptop, I'll be on my bike, cycling. Even. I've cycled to this place and I will still cycle from here back to my house, and at times I also run. I have participated in various marathon races and looking forward to participate in some that are scheduled this year and other times.

Speaker 2:

Interesting, interesting An athlete eh, yes. That's quite the path, it seems you have very high discipline levels.

Speaker 4:

So in your five-year journey, five years plus journey, in your five-year journey, five years plus journey. So how can you define what's?

Speaker 5:

toxic work environment. Toxic work environment it will come down to. I will just say I can summarize it to two words mental health. So if you are working somewhere or you are working for a project, if it is affecting you, your mental health in a negative way, then definitely that is a toxic work environment.

Speaker 2:

Mental health is quite a broad term and it's something that everyone should take very seriously because it's an essential part of who you are. If your mental is not healthy, you will not be able to function. So that's a very good point that you bring across. In the five years plus, have you been in an environment that you don't need to state it, but have you been in an environment where you felt was a toxic work environment?

Speaker 5:

Very many.

Speaker 2:

Very many. Oh wow, what were the telltale signs? What was happening here and there that made you realize, ah, this place is not healthy for my well-being.

Speaker 5:

In some of the places that I've worked that were toxic. I realized that communication was one thing that was broken and then another thing was employer relations. It was also crooked, like it wasn't something that was being taken care of. Then another thing that I also saw in those environments that I worked in is that there were unfair terms. Basically, when you look at if somebody you are working with is doing less tasks compared to you and they are carrying smaller responsibilities and probably you even find this person is, if you happen to find out that the person that you are trying to judge or to compare yourself with is earning more than you compared to you, who is doing a lot organization to actually come and find out something, then that one is a toxic work environment. Then also, if you find when you are trying to have your personal time but you are compelled to do something that is work related, definitely that will translate into a toxic work environment. You are compelled to do something that is work-related, definitely that would translate into a toxic work environment Interesting.

Speaker 2:

So what I'm getting is a lot of. If there's barriers in the communication and if there's a crossing of boundaries of your personal boundaries, that's what brings out a toxic nature, or those are the telltale signs that this place might actually be toxic. Anyone who might have an addition, what are your telltale signs for toxic environments?

Speaker 4:

So you tell us your name, then tell us how you can define it.

Speaker 5:

Thank, you I would say there is something called work-life balance. So if you do not have a proper work-life balance, then it will be hard for you to actually define that thin line that is in between there. Work-life balance is whereby you are able to allocate time that you are going to do work and another time that you are allocating that is not work related. For example, if you have a family, the time that you will spend with your family or the time that you will spend on your own, because personal time is also very important. Unfortunately, if we find that your personal time happens to be the time that you are getting in between your blankets, then probably it will be a good sign that your work-life balance is not very good. So if you have to carry your work home, then it has to be your own initiative that probably. I've decided to carry my work home and proceed there, because I know tomorrow I need to do the time that I'm actually saving I will use it for something else. Probably you are doing a side project. So now you have decided let me just finish these tasks so that I can get time to go do my side project. That is how you should be able to do it. But if, during the time, for example, that is not working hours, if your boss is trying to contact you that time so that you do something, if your boss is trying to contact you at that time so that you do something and he or she wants that thing to be done during that time, then now that is where now somebody is intruding into your time. Basically, if I see an email during a time that is not working hours, I will just say well received or noted. Or if I see it in the charts, I will. I will just say well received or noted, or if I see it in the charts, I will. I will. I will note it down, but I will only start to act upon it when it is now working hours. So that is how I would have been operating.

Speaker 5:

So for you to get a distinction between hard work and the work-life balance is that hard work should be in such a way that you are using the same resources that others have been allocated. For example, the resource here now is 8 to 5 pm daily. That is the time that everyone is allocated to 5pm daily. That is the time that everyone is allocated to do their work, also working. For example, you are working from the office and you are using those resources that are there. So if you can be able to use those resources the way they are and actually overachieve Overachieving could be in form of you actually finishing your tasks in good time Then that will be hard work.

Speaker 5:

For example, you look at when let's compare it with sales In sales, for example, if somebody is able to sell 500 units in a week, that is an average salesperson is able to sell 500 units in a week, but is an average salesperson is able to sell 500 units in a week, but there's another person during that week he or she has sold double that. Then the other person is hardworking. So if we translate it to in our industry of IT or software development, where we are actually providing a service, we just look at it in terms of hours, the hours that you put in and the amount of work that you are able to do during that time. It's not about you being able to do.

Speaker 5:

If you are doing outside the working hours, then now it moves from being hard work. You become now like a workaholic, somebody who is just like an addict, alcoholic, but now in terms of work, it is still going to affect you mentally and it will push you to that kind of a toxic work environment, and in this case, it is you who has subjected yourself into it. Yeah, isha.

Speaker 2:

Just before you ask for those who are following along virtually. The question was because it was not said on the microphone. The question was that if you carry your work home, is that a toxic work environment? And where do we draw the lines? Because the older generation would say you're being lazy or, yeah, you're not working hard enough. So what's the distinction between hard work and a toxic work environment, which he has clearly outlined? Proper work-life balance is very important. So for the next question we'll use this mic so a follow-up question on that.

Speaker 3:

Um, you know how competitive getting a job is, especially when you are entry level or internship or you just finished school. So sometimes you're told to settle for whatever you get, and maybe what whatever you've gotten requires you to put in a lot of hard work for you to stand out from the rest. So is there a phase in life where you'll you have to persevere long working hours for you to stand out, or don't just settle for anything that's healthy for you? And also, being in a work environment where your progress is not recognized or your achievements are not recognized, maybe five years after work you've never gotten a promotion or salary increment. Does that count as?

Speaker 5:

a toxic work environment. Okay, I will start with the first one where you've actually talked about if you are working. If I got, can you remind me the first question?

Speaker 2:

Is there a period where you need to persevere, especially if you're starting out? Because jobs are competitive, internships are competitive? Is there a perseverance trial period that you need to work through?

Speaker 5:

well, well, I will, I will. I will bring it that phase to when you are just fresh from campus or fresh from the bootcamp and you are trying to create your digital footprint. So during that time you will probably come to events like these ones. Probably you will go to hackathons, probably you will be doing sprints that are probably open source, or you'll come, you'll contribute to community work. So during that time you'll be trying to perfect your skills and do a lot of things. So, yes, you will need to do that and uh, so that, uh, when a time will come, and so that a time will come, if somebody asks you what have you done, or can you show me your GitHub profile, you'll be able to show them and then they will see. They will just be able to see, sort of like what you've been working on. They will not necessarily go into details, but they will be able to see that. So it's a good thing that you you can, you can give yourself to work on, because I believe when somebody is probably in campus, either you are in campus or you are in a boot camp or you are in a these institutions that are training people to become software developers who are ready for the market. For example, like Moringa, we have Rolex, we have Akira Cheeks, all those.

Speaker 5:

When you are there, you are expected that you need to persevere. So there is no shortcut to that. You have to persevere and work longer hours because now you will need to learn more and also do more. It does not necessarily translate to money. It won't translate to money, but rather it will translate into your knowledge, your, your knowledge, knowledge base. So, yes, you need to do that and, uh, when you get a job. Still, I think you also need to learn, like, uh, where I am right now. Uh, we have heard of I, I was, I'm, I'm forced to learn a few things that are provided on Microsoft, azure and also Oracle, because those are the things that we are using there and we are told these products they have been paid for millions of money, so you cannot come with your own ideas.

Speaker 5:

You say no, I've been working with GitHub or GitLab or I've been working with MongoDB. They tell you no, here we have a partnership with these people and we have this subscription goes for this. So you use this product. So it forces you to create your own time, to go learn those things so that now, when it comes to time for working you, you will be able to execute your work smoothly. So you will have to to persevere at some point, but but it doesn't end. Sometimes it still comes back, like right now, if you move to a new job, be prepared. There is a phase that where you have to spend longer working hours so that you get up to speed with whatever is down there. So then another question he asked is you've worked for like five years and you're not getting a promotion, you're not getting a salary increment. So if that translates to a toxic work environment the condition whereby you find you are not, there are things that are happening to the people around you. Probably there are people who joined and they have been moving up the ranks. You are still there. Nothing is changing on your side. Always say no change on litmus paper. Well, that could look like a toxic work environment. However, if nobody is subjecting you to bullying, criticism or anything that makes you to feel inferior, then it doesn't look like a toxic work environment. Take an example a security officer is always at the gate there. Sometimes the shift change is operating at night, sometimes it's operating during the day, but he's there five years down the line. He's doing the same job. But he's there five years down the line. He's doing the same job. Nobody's harassing him, nobody's accusing him that something was stolen here. It's up to you to pay. Then they say no, this month we are deducting you so that we go pay for these things that got lost here. Like it happens with this company along Garden City pay for these things that got lost here. Like it happens with the case with this company along Garden City, the breweries behind there. They break things or they go, they sell things. Then they say the driver, the conductor, the security officer, they are going to take it, it is going to be deducted from their salary. Now, that will fit into a toxic work environment. But if nobody is going to accuse you or do something like that, then you are not in a toxic environment.

Speaker 5:

It basically means one thing you are comfortable with whatever you are doing. That is why you are probably not growing and you are contented with it. You are just with whatever you are doing. That is why you are probably not growing and you are contented with it. You are just like that security officer. He is contented with the work that he is doing and he doesn't want it to change, because if it changes he will probably struggle.

Speaker 5:

For example, if he is guarding this building, for example, and here he is able to manage his time so that he only takes like two hours to survey and then the rest he sleeps. Now if you tell him you take him from here, he goes to guard in an embassy where visitors are coming in 24-7, he can't sleep and he has to work with a police dog coming in 24-7, he can't sleep and he has to work with a police dog. Then he doesn't want to go to challenging environment. Then that could be your case. You are just okay. You are pushing bags or you are fixing one bag in a week and you are okay with that. Then you are not in a toxic environment, you are just in your comfort zone.

Speaker 2:

Very good insight. It's very good insight.

Speaker 4:

Okay, that's a good one, so a quick one again. So how do you view a toxic work environment with your mental health and your physical health, and what are the consequences that it brings?

Speaker 5:

Well, mental health is a very critical thing that we address. Even when I started to do these sporting activities, the thing that drove me there was actually trying to fix my mental health, and even right now I run a cycling club and I try to help people so that they can come out of things that are pinning them down and trying to push them to depression and all those kind of things. Now, one thing that you can actually observe when it comes to mental health if you find that, for example, you have not achieved your tasks on time and it just feels like you are going to have a bad day. For example, you are given a task. You're supposed to do something to fix a bug by by end of this week. This week ends and monday you are having a stand-up. For example, you come to the stand-up knowing very well that you do not have any news. Let me just say you do not have any news. That is pleasing to your superiors and you just know you're going to have a bad day. It's like you just feel like're going to have a bad day. It's like you just feel like let me give you a scenario that day when you've eaten something because your friends forced you to eat it. Now you know, today I'm not sleeping. I'll be the one who will. I will be traversing the corridors towards the washroom. I'll be the one there. So you know you are going to have a bad day. So now the same thing happens with you in the workplace. So if you know that is what happens, then probably your mental health is very bad because now your mind is already showing you pictures. It's creating mental pictures. So today my boss is going to shout at me. Today I know very well that they stand up. My name will be mentioned more times than my mother ever called me. So you know very well your mental health is very bad because now your mind is not sending you positive signals, even when you know you've not achieved so.

Speaker 5:

Again, when it comes to you knowing how to fix it, is that if you're even struggling to think critically, have you ever tried to? For example, have you ever tried to reason with? If you're even struggling to think critically, have you ever tried to? For example, have you ever tried to reason with a person who is not sober? And being sober doesn't mean to be somebody who has taken alcohol. You might not have taken alcohol, but you're not sober. Probably you watched adult content and now you're not sober. Probably you watched adult content and now you're not sober. Probably you've been through a bad time. Somebody close to you passed on so you can't even think clearly. So if you find that you are at work, you're trying to think and it's not coming until somebody else helps you, probably you are, your mental health is not in the right track.

Speaker 5:

So, and the best way I think somebody can fix that is, uh, when you you decide to give yourself a break, you give yourself a break. And, uh, a break, you give yourself a break. And normally I know I do this I can say, on a weekend, this weekend I'll go visit somebody somewhere outside the account and during that time I've left my laptop in my house in Nairobi. I've gone there and the only thing probably I'm having is my phone. And still, even if I'm having my phone, because now I'm with somebody else it could be my uncle, it could be my aunt or somebody you respect I'll not touch my phone. Even if texts are coming, I'll not touch my phone. I'll even put my data off so that I now see things in a different perspective, so that by the time Monday comes. I just come back with different memories. I'm not thinking about the way Friday ended, those kind of things.

Speaker 2:

Now to avoid getting to that state where you're already disturbed or you've been in this toxic space that you actually need a break. What you can do is try and combat it before you can try and mitigate the situation you had mentioned when we were talking about the telltale signs that a work environment is toxic. You had mentioned things such as when you see an email past your working hours, you respond with well noted received the corporate blue tick. But what are the actual measures that you put in place to shield yourself from toxic work environments or to actually help you be in a clearer path of focus even when your environment is toxic? What measures do you put in place?

Speaker 5:

One thing if you are in a toxic work environment, you might have to report when you are starting your work day and also report when you are ending your work day. And when you do that, you log off from whatever communication tool you are working with. It could be you are using Zoom, you are using Gmail, or you are using Slack or Discord. You just there is an option where you turn off. You say now out of office or away. So that is one thing you can do, but probably you must include communicating when you start and when you end. It's like when you, it's just like when you are. When you are joining the expressway, you have to log into the system and when you come out of it, you also log out of the system. So you have to literally do that.

Speaker 5:

Don't assume now, because it's now 6 pm, now people know it's not working hours somebody is expecting some communication from you and you've not communicated. You've not communicated what you did that day or you've not communicated that you are now done for the day. So those are things you can do and you make sure that once you do that outside this time you don't respond to anything. Now that is where you have a toxic, a really toxic environment. But in a normal environment probably nobody requires you to report when you start work and when you end work. In a normal environment people only expect you to say, today I'm having a flu, I will not be able to work, and probably say, oh, I'll work from home. Or you'll say I'm filling in a leave so that I be exempted from work today. So that's the normal one. But communication has to be very critical.

Speaker 2:

So it boils down to the communication. Make it as detailed as possible. It's very critical.

Speaker 6:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

Awesome. Yes, there is a suggestion from the audience, as Our attendee makes their way forward to share their question comment. For those joining us, the theme is toxic work environment, the cameraman he has a question.

Speaker 7:

Hi I'm.

Speaker 7:

Joseph, hi, yeah, I'm Joseph. I think I have over 100 questions from the last statement that you made on the system logging in and logging out that is, maybe registering when getting to work and going out of work. So I wanted to differentiate between now a toxic work environment and a company's work environment policies. That's one. Two, in terms of saying working long hours how do you distinguish working long hours when you work remote and you have to incorporate the aspect of being flexible? Three, yeah, in terms of again working long hours or maybe being contacted outside working hours distinguish this toxic work environment and working as an SRE. Maybe if you could answer those then you can come back, okay.

Speaker 5:

So I think if I miss out a question you'll remind me. So let's start with the first one. I'll give a scenario. And, believe me, I freelanced in a company and it was toxic. I even wrote it in my blog and people are thinking like I'm just getting stories. I said it was remote and it was toxic.

Speaker 5:

You just go see that in my blog, jack dot medium dot com, you will find I've written a series and um, it was a company based in new delhi and uh, our, our, our brothers from the other side of the continent, they, they want you to over communicate and they also over communicate to you. At first it might seem good, but with time it starts to feel like a bother. So the way their policy was was whereby we were using Zoom. I know some of you Zoom. You only use it when there is a, there is a webinar or a meeting. But now imagine, zoom can be used just the same way we are using Google suit to communicate.

Speaker 5:

There are chat groups. There is also contacts of everybody in the company. They have been put inside there, even with their phone numbers. You just find them there. So, provided you are logged into their system, somebody can just dial your contact and call you. They will call each other on WhatsApp, but now it's called on Zoom. So they created chat groups and also you are also assigned a mentor and you are assigned a project manager, and sometimes project manager could also be your mentor. But now you have like three chat groups there is one for beginners, there is one for you with your mentor, there is one you you with your mentor, there is one you with your project manager. You are giving different forms of communication, but the most important one there.

Speaker 5:

Most of it was. You have to wake up in the morning, depending with the way your contract says when you start your day. You have to make sure that exactly that time you log in, you go to the respective chat and you say logged in and you leave it. That is, there was one. You say that, and then there's another one. You say locked in, today, I'll be working on this and this and this and this. Then you continue In the middle of the day. Again, you also communicate. I've been working on this, I've finished on this, I'm here to be working on this.

Speaker 5:

If you happen to be going for a nature call, you say I'm going to the toilet, I will spend this number of minutes. So they have that. If you are going for lunch, you also say I'm going for lunch, I'll spend this number of minutes. If there is a power blackout, you say oh, there is a power blackout in my area. I'm looking for a place. Let me look for a place where I'll be able to get power and continue working. So you are even encouraged to use your phone, just in case if your laptop runs out of power but your phone is still connected, those kind of things. So it gave me the mentality that there are people who value, there are companies, that their policy is you have to communicate. When you start your work and when you end your work and then when you take a break, they are assuming you are in an office, but now this office it is remote. That is how they are assuming. But as we go along it gets to a point whereby it starts to feel like the company policy it's good. It gets to a point whereby it starts to feel like the company policy is good. It's to help people know, like your project manager, if he's asked if so-and-so reported to work today, he can be able to say yes, so-and-so reported to work today. I have seen he has said that he logged in at this time, lunch time. He said he went for lunch and he is working on these tasks. So when you look at it outside, it looks like the company policy is very outlined. They want to know what is happening with their workers from time to time. It's fine.

Speaker 5:

But now how it becomes toxic is the fact that if you delay to report, it becomes a problem If you are called, because now somebody can call, you, can text you, and you are not responding. The next thing they are calling you. You are not responding to the call. Now it becomes an issue to them. They start are not responding. The next thing they are calling you, you are not responding to the call. Now it becomes an issue to them. They start to say they, they. They start to you find the ceo himself is texting you, is texting you. Then the next thing is calling is asking you where are you? It happened to me so I started to feel.

Speaker 5:

Now it is becoming toxic, because if the CEO of the company is now coming to ask me where I am, then I'm telling him well, I stepped out, I went for a nature call. Then he asks you why didn't you say you were going for a nature call? Then you say I'm sorry, it was abrupt, I had. Then you say I'm sorry, it was abrupt, I had to literally rush from my desk to go relieve myself because of sitting for long hours. Oh, you should have said oh, then why did you take this long? You know how you will have problem explaining such kind of things, because now this is a ceo, you expect it's supposed to be dealing with bigger things, but now it's dealing with small things and again you are feeling you have. You are feeling it is in an inappropriate communication you're having with somebody up there. You're expecting to have this communication with somebody who is immediately after you. So that is how now you start to feel like one thing my privacy is being infringed, my space is being infringed and you start to feel like you are in a small prison. So the moment you start to feel you are in a small prison, so the moment you start to feel you are in a small prison, it has become a toxic one. So that is where you will define that.

Speaker 5:

If you go to Safaricom, there was a time Safaricom. They used to have a small company that was for developers. It was called Safaricom Alpha. We used to have meetups there. Sometimes it was based near Ihab, where Ihab is. You would go there.

Speaker 5:

They have written on the wall please don't sit on your desk from morning to evening. Do you take time to go out and enjoy fresh air? They have written that. And then they have a room. They are all things that you normally find in a gym. They have that room. You can go there anytime and do whatever you want, as long as you come back to your desk and you do your work, nobody has a problem. So that is the policy that was there and I saw it was a good one. So I think company policies like now that company policy, it is asking you to take time to go out and have some fresh air. Somebody might even feel it is toxic to him because probably he has a bulging stomach and he doesn't want to arouse himself there, so it can feel toxic to him. I hope I've answered your first question. You've not been able to get a distinction between them.

Speaker 2:

Thank you just to have the twitter space audience with us in the conversation. So the question that he has asked is that to clearly define what exactly in work policies makes it a toxic environment For example, if the company does not have a gym, does that qualify them as a toxic work environment? What policies exactly enable you to pinpoint and say this one is toxic? This one is not yes we'll have the question repeated, just so that we can all follow along.

Speaker 7:

You guys, you have to listen to me. I'm not coming here for the mic again.

Speaker 5:

Don't be toxic.

Speaker 7:

All right, yeah, so when I'm near the mic my questions evaporate. Yeah so policies? My question was not like, say, are these policies making the work, or maybe the environment, to be toxic? Or maybe like saying over communicating right or maybe over doing something. Is it a company policy or are they just enforcing it because of you or maybe because of certain people? So instead of maybe explaining it in you know, comparing two different companies, maybe just explain it in one company without you know, without having to base in maybe a situation.

Speaker 5:

I would say this. I would say this that when you start to feel that a company policy is toxic to you, it could be personal. Probably it's not something that is appealing to somebody else. Somebody else is finding it fine. For example, if somebody thinks it is the right way things should be done or is new to that company, he will probably find it's not hard. But if yourself you're not used to that kind of policy, I'm sure you will start to feel it is a bit toxic. So again, another thing that can make a company policy might be very okay. But now the problem will be the people who are enforcing the company policy. So the people who are enforcing the company policy, they can overdo it. The moment they overdo it, that is now when it becomes toxic. And if they overdo it and you try to look for intervention and you don't find the proper way, it will not intervene the way you expected. Again, now that increases the toxicity of the situation. I think that is how toxicity of the situation.

Speaker 1:

I think that is how I can say it Okay, sorry, sorry.

Speaker 7:

Yeah. So you are saying maybe you are not used to how they are doing things right? That was something that just from your statement. How about adapting? Well, if you Adaptability that is.

Speaker 5:

If it takes long for you to adapt, you definitely have found yourself in a toxic environment.

Speaker 7:

So is it a toxic work environment or it's you who does not fit in that working?

Speaker 5:

environment. I would have wanted to respond with two words it depends, but I will not say it depends. I will say still, it could be a personal thing to you. Also, it will also be based on the people who are responsible for the employer relation, mostly the HR.

Speaker 5:

If you looked for the intervention of the HR to help you to adapt and it is not helping, that one also could be an issue, because it's the work of the HR to help you to adapt. For example, if basically when you are hired, the person who handles you until now you start to get your streamline into the company system is normally the HR. So if the HR doesn't help you to get to a point where now you are flowing with the company policy you to get to a point where now you are flowing with the company policy, then probably it's not that you have failed to adapt. It's probably because the HR is not even doing a good job to help you to adapt to their company. Next question, the other question that you asked you are saying about if probably you are an sr, sre, and you are now trying to look at it like working hours.

Speaker 6:

well, it will come down to the contract.

Speaker 5:

The contract is everything based on the contract that you are working with. The contract should state the time that you're supposed to be working official working hours. So it means whoever is drafting your contract has to be somebody who is well-versed. Definitely it could be a CTO, and this CTO is from this field of software development and now he has gone up the ranks. Now he understands if we are recruiting an SRE, or we are recruiting a DevOps engineer, or we are recruiting a mobile app engineer, or we are recruiting, for example let me use a bigger term a webmaster. You know, a webmaster. So depending on the title of the role that you are being, it has a different JD.

Speaker 5:

Now, whoever is drafting that is the one who is going to draft the contract. They should be able to state in your contract when you're supposed to be working. So they will state and ensure that if you are an SRE, you can be able. You can decide to be with your laptop in Diani doing anything, but when something needs you, you jump right on it. It doesn't matter the time of the day, so it depends on the contractor.

Speaker 7:

Okay, let's now maybe alleviate that aspect of being an SRE or maybe a DevOps engineer, maybe in a modern environment. Sorry to say so, if maybe I'm being maybe more toxic In a modern environment, I believe as a DevOps engineer who is?

Speaker 7:

also a backend engineer. I believe in the mantra of you build it, you ship it and you run it, so for you to fix the error that is happening or maybe an issue that is happening in fraud, I don't expect you to be an SRE or a DevOps engineer. I expect you to be the person who built that product. So how do you respond to that in terms of being approached or maybe called in odd hours in relation to toxic products?

Speaker 5:

Well, it could actually be toxic. Whereby you find Let me give an example In a place I once worked, there was a DevOps guy and this DevOps guy he had a very good policy that he came with it. And my boss was a tough guy but he had to bend and agree to that policy. He told him, if I work outside working hours, or I work towards midnight, the next day I'm not coming to work, or if I come to work, I'll come after lunchtime. And they agreed. So that is it. So you yourself, you have to set your terms. You say it's like a tug of war. You place a line. If you cross over this other side, I've won against you.

Speaker 7:

Let's move that part where you are now not maybe attending to work the following day, or maybe you are shifting the hours. Now responding to that it's toxic, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, are you supposed to be contacted during those odd hours or you're not supposed to be contacted because it's?

Speaker 5:

um, I think you're supposed to be contacted because because even me, as a mobile app developer, sometimes I can get feedback about the app during odd hours, and it doesn't mean that during odd hours and it doesn't mean that somebody is installing the app. They have to do it during working hours. They can do it any other time or they can be using the app at a different time, For example, on a weekend, and the app fails and they are not able to enjoy the app, For example, and they are not able to enjoy the app, For example, like the app is not allowing somebody to log in. So you should be able to report that feedback. So I think you should also be lenient enough to receive feedback during odd hours. Look at it like feedback, but when you choose to act upon it, it is now upon you. It's just that, again, the way the feedback will come to you. It doesn't have to come like it is a matter of life and death. You are being notified that this and this has happened.

Speaker 5:

Take it, for example, when I don't know I cannot be sure if there are people from Sudan, but whenever they did their DDDOS attack on our system, I'm sure there are people who didn't sleep and up to now they are still recovering from that. Definitely they had to be subjected to a toxic work environment, Because now you are being given a feedback and you are supposed to act upon it and probably they had to be given incentives so that they could actually do that the same thing. I've seen it, I've heard it from my friends who are working in Safarikon. There was a time M-Pesa Hub was not working properly. So there are people they had to burn the midnight oil and make sure that services are up and running within hours and they had to be compensated in terms of time and also the allowances. So if that happened, then now the toxic part of it was taken care of. If that didn't happen, then definitely it was toxic.

Speaker 7:

A follow-up. If then it's being compensated, is it still a toxic environment If?

Speaker 5:

then it's being compensated. Is it still a toxic environment? It's not. It's just that it has been cushioned. Now you won't feel the pain.

Speaker 7:

It's like I'm slapping you and I'm paying you. I'm lost. I'm lost. Hi guys, I'm Joseph, a DevOps engineer at Accred. Don't miss. Next week, on a Thursday, I'll be talking on DevOps Roundtable here at AT. So my first session at AT.

Speaker 7:

I want to respond to your question on. You asked something on perseverance or maybe taking whatever is available for you in an entry level. To my understanding, at entry level, what are you applying for? Are you applying for an internship, apprenticeship or maybe a junior role? All those will guide you. Don't just take whatever is there for you. And maybe you are just coming with quote-unquote some peer pressure from other developers who are out here. You want to, you know, to say, or to tell people how you are earning, how you are making money, but in the real sense you're just as Jack said, you are subjecting yourself to a toxic work environment. In fact, it's not even a toxic work environment. You are being toxic to yourself. So don't just come out, or come out here with a lot of peer pressure. You want to tell people how you've been employed or how you are working.

Speaker 7:

You shouldn't come with high expectations, yeah definitely, and also taking what is there for you, or maybe whatever is there because you want to take it. Ask yourself which company am I applying for or at which company is this? Is it a startup? Is it a well-versed company? Those are the questions that you ought to ask yourself. Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 2:

Awesome. Thank you very much. I love the engaging nature that we are questioning things like what really is toxic If I'm being paid for it, is it really toxic? These are the questions that should really be burning inside us right now, because this is the forum to share and hear from people. Jack is here to give us his insights on it. That was another question. As we proceed.

Speaker 8:

Thank you. Thank you very much. I want to partly respond to your question on policies. Apparently, I'm one of the people who draft policies.

Speaker 5:

Your name.

Speaker 8:

My name is Christine from Africa Stalking. So one thing you have to know policies are simply guidelines that are used, officially agreed upon, guidelines that are agreed within an organization on how to work in a company, in a company setup. Policies are guidelines At home. You also have guidelines that you follow in your houses, so it's simply something that you look upon on how you're going to work or how you're going to interact within an organization, and when policies are being set we look at the law of the land. So it is very rare to find that a policy is toxic, but what it is.

Speaker 8:

I can say is people abuse everything, even in life. We have things in life, but we abuse. We have relationships, but we abuse. We have money, but we abuse. So people who sit down, they have really gone into the legal implications to put down policies, like something you talked about on working hours. Each country, whenever you see a working hour in a policy, it's not the company that has come up with it. They have tapped into the legalism of that country. Go to Zambia, come to Kenya. So whenever you find that you are working over and above I think in Kenya it's 48 hours in a in a week whenever you find yourself working over and above it means you're illegally working. But, um, just to example, maybe the nature of your job, like people who look at infrastructure or medics, you can find sometimes people in the medical they can be called we and ours but you find that there are systems that cushions that Like, I think, what you mentioned. When you come to hospitals, yes, you'll find this shift work to ensure that you don't work long hours.

Speaker 8:

For infrastructure, that is software, I think you're ensuring that your infrastructure is working normally. But those times when you're called upon it means there's an error, not unless the error is caused. If that is the thing, something is missing either with the backend or. But normally every infrastructure or software, the way it's been developed, it's to work properly. You'll only be called upon when system errors, something happens. But when that happens, most companies what they do, for example, like Africa Stocking, if you find people, maybe they're doing an overhaul, what is it called? At night, the following day you might find they will not report at nine, probably coming at noon.

Speaker 8:

So there's a local arrangement that happens within organizations to just ensure that people have time to rejuvenate, people have time to rest. But companies are always very considerate, but you can actually find companies that are forced to work outside working hours. Then it depends. Maybe if you're a global company, for example, the infrastructure sits here and you power maybe Cote d'Ivoire or Nigeria. You see, when you're resting you find that them they are still not resting, so there'll be a lot of demand on your end. So, as a company, what you can do as software developers, if you're straining, it's good to bring that up either with your supervisor or head of department. So like, for example, at what we do, we cannot have SREs sitting in all our markets, but we can have product support people who are tech, who during those working hours they can sit in because they are well equipped to be able to serve that country. So companies always make adjustments to make sure issues in different markets that are in different time zones are still addressed. The beauty of having such resources sitting in different countries means the developers there can address country-specific issues that come up, things like also well-being and the like.

Speaker 8:

So whenever you find that policies are toxic, there's a problem either with the execution I think someone mentioned with execution of policies and working hours is literally very painful when you get yourself working over and above and it's actually illegal. And these days the courts are very friendly to employees. Even when you just show up to the courts and say you don't even need a lawyer, that company is going to pay dearly for allowing you to work long hours Because the courts in Kenya and in any other country they don't permit that, they cushion the employees. Really, you just need to keep voicing in that I don't know what else I have to say. Yeah, and also to the question the pretty lady raised, I think also something around carrying work home and how that translates to the elderly as well yeah, carrying.

Speaker 8:

I think when it comes to carrying work home, we also need to put it in context. Why are you carrying work home? Because there are many ways of looking at it. Were you so overwhelmed that you didn't finish your work and you had to carry work home? Or is it the nature of your work? Because once in a while, yes, you can take work home if there are projects and deadlines and all that, and so you need to really put it in context to figure out. Why are you carrying work home? Because, asking someone who probably sits in the people's team, I would not advise you to carry work at any one time. But if it's once in a while for a specific reason, to just meet a deadline or a project, that's understandable. But the default more because after COVID there's all this, I think even what we're talking about, about well-being and wellness, and what you're talking about on mental wellness, which is very important for each person to consider. So the self-care taking work home, literally, it's just you're not taking care of yourself, you're not taking care of your mental wellness. But if a company, literally I don't think there's a company that tells you please take your work home, it's just something. But if you put it in context, you're able to know why am I taking work home? Is this a one-off? Is it how work normally happens? Yeah, so that one will be responded if we have the context.

Speaker 8:

And then also back to entry level. I agree with the previous. So because? So, because we are developers and we are young people I could tell that some of us are students here.

Speaker 8:

Work environment has really changed. It's not how it used to be many years back. This time everybody knows what they want to do. Everybody is aware of their passion. Yes, it might be tricky when you're entering the workforce right now, but even when you're entering, you really know what your passion is.

Speaker 8:

If you're in software, yes, you can enter, and then probably you're going to do back-end, full-stack infrastructure, back-end, full-stack infrastructure. But over time you will know I prefer full-stack or I prefer back-end. You yourself will be able to determine. So, even when you're entering the workforce, you will just not take anything. You will take that that you're passionate about. So no one should deceive you to just take anything, because you'll be very frustrated and you won't even last. I think where we are, we keep encouraging people, no matter the level you are at. Spend time doing what you really enjoy. And then, when it comes to promotions and maybe you're in an organization where there's no going up there, for Africa stocking, for example we don't have ranks, so there's no ladder. But our growth is not hierarchical, it's not vertical, this is vertical.

Speaker 1:

It's horizontal.

Speaker 8:

The growth is horizontal, it's not vertical. And for software developers, I know you understand. Horizontal, yeah, the growth is horizontal, it's not vertical. And for software developers, I know you understand, for young people, right now growth is not going up. Today I'm able to do this. Tomorrow I'm able to do something else. If I was developing something internally, am I able to develop something that can be sold into the market? Because your growth pattern is maybe in regards to languages. If you came in and you only knew Java, and then you come probably in 80, and now you're doing Scala. So growth is what's happening with my skill set? Am I improving? So, when I get a job, it's as if what's happening with my skill set? Am I improving? So when I get a job, it's as if what's that? Saying A jack?

Speaker 8:

of all trades but a master. There's so much you can do out there. It's just that what is the opportunity? Whatever opportunity presents itself, I'm able to do it. So that's one of the things I've seen with developers and young people. Their growth is diverse in terms of capability, skill set. That's how it looks like. So people don't even want to get up, they just want to get skills. And then, once you get your skills, an opportunity presents itself. Then it comes with the money. So you just equip yourself with so much skill set, so much capabilities.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, thank you christine, quite some insight and nuggets right from person in the team that helps draft the policies themselves. So we have seen toxic work environments what they are, tried to define them with relation to policies, with relation to working hours, with relation to should you persevere, and all that that's all being said, the telltale signs. We have discussed them, how to know and measures that you can put in place to mitigate. What would be your final take Anything in the toxic work environment space, your parting shot that you'd like to share with the audience online and physically.

Speaker 5:

Okay, is it like somebody has a question Just come?

Speaker 6:

just come. So my question is very radical. I feel like we can agree. As Africans we are quite behind in everything and as Miss said she said a jack of all trades is a master of none and as Africans I feel like in the Western world, you know, software development is divided into a lot of things. There's someone who's here, someone who's there.

Speaker 6:

But in Africa, for us to catch up to the Western world, you have to just, you have to be a master of all. So for us to catch up to them, you have to do everything. You have to just every part of Africa, western to eastern. So you doing everything to catch up for everyone. Is that a toxic work environment? Or just having the, you know, trying to make Africa great? Is that toxic? Or you just want to relax? Oh, that's toxic. That's what I mean. Thank you, oh that's toxic.

Speaker 1:

That's what I mean, thank you. Actually, my name is Teddy Waria from Africa Stalking. I just wanted to comment on that. When you're building something, consider Africa at this moment to be in 1973. So we have to catch up. And when we have to catch up, we have to roll our sleeves. And in terms of negotiating how long you work, some people look at the clock, and those who may love what they do, they don't even look at the clock. I personally don't look at the clock. I've never looked at the clock when I'm working, but that doesn't apply to everybody. So you need to balance your body and your life either 8, 8, 8 hours within the 24-hour cycle. So 8 hours for sleep, 8 hours for work and eight hours for play. So that also works In terms of engaging with your HR or people's team and all that. Just learn the skill of how to negotiate. Everything can be sold over a cup of tea.

Speaker 5:

Okay, I love the way you said it, over a cup of tea, I'll just say two weeks ago we had a sports day at Britain and it was a nice time to catch up. So the guy that was taking us for the day, or our MC for the day, was telling us that if you have something with your superior, that is the time to deal with them. But just know, on Monday they are with you. It was on a Friday. It was on a Friday, but it was a nice time. I actually managed to carry one of my bosses on my back and we were taking the same cup of coffee and we were exchanging stories. Now we are not talking about work, we are just talking about other things. I also got to interact with the HRs. Now this time they were not speaking behind the emails or anything.

Speaker 5:

I was just talking face to face and I realized the HRs. They are even the nicest people.

Speaker 4:

They are not faking smiles.

Speaker 5:

So, like you said, everything can always be sorted over a cup of coffee. That HR is the first person you need to be friends with so that when things are bad, when they say, you can go to her. I just want to hope that nobody is having an HR who is a male. If an HR is a male, it can be chaos a bit. I've worked where there was a HR who was a male and when he had a problem with his wife back at home he will come to the office and he will be saying mistakes everywhere. So just try and.

Speaker 5:

So let me go to the parting shot. I'll just say a few things that are written down that still it comes down to HR departments and management and the things that they can do to address toxic behaviours and cultures. And one and the things that they can do to address toxic behaviors and cultures, and one of them is that they need to develop clear policies against harassment, bullying and discrimination. They need to provide regular training on diversity, inclusion and respectful communication, and then they need to conduct regular employee surveys to gauge the workplace satisfaction. Then they need to address complaints and conflicts promptly and impartially. Then, lastly, they need to promote work-life balance and employee-being initiatives.

Speaker 5:

So if any of those things that I've mentioned, those five things that I've mentioned, if they are not happening where you are, then probably you can just go to the HR and try to see if there is something that the HR can actually do to improve that. And this is even not to do with money, it's just creating time. For example, the HR can decide one Friday especially, for example, the last Friday of the month, you can all have lunch together or you can have that evening. It becomes like a sports day. In the afternoon. People go and have a nice time in the field, probably a field somewhere there so that you get to know the people you are working with and you even reduce the tension that was building up people you are working with and you even reduce the tension that was building up. Basically, you don't finish your tenure at your company without knowing some people. You know people and you interact with them.

Speaker 2:

All right. Thank you, that has been quite an engaging session. Thank you for the insights from the audience themselves. You have been an amazing crowd chiming in with insightful nuggets of wisdom. You did your research and we love to see it, really love to see it, key takeaways being remember to work hard with the resources you're given and strive to attain a reasonable work-life balance. Yes, yes, remember work is important, but also what you do outside work is important. Your mental health is very important. Your physical health is very, very important. So keep those key things always in check, ensure they are right and wish you all the very best. That being said, I will hand it over back to Josphat to close the evening and the session for us.

Speaker 4:

It was just a long period arguing, understanding everything. So I think we have learned a bit and known some few bits, especially from the HR, known some few bit, especially from the HR. So part and short is we'll be conducting our meetups every first Thursday of the month. So the next one will be a tech journey for the big people. So you'll find the big people in IT talking about their tech journey and yeah so, and the other thing, the next meetup, the CTO Roundtable 10th, which will be amazing when we attend. Then finally, next week, Nairobi Innovation Week. So it's a big thing. If you haven't, grab your ticket, grab, let's build and let's make Africa talk. Yeah, Thank you.

Speaker 2:

Right, thank you very much. Have yourselves a lovely evening for people online. Have a lovely rest of the day and see you in the next one.

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Michael Kimathi

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