Impact Masters Podcast
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Impact Masters Podcast
#47 Impact Master Irving Amukasa: From Kenyan Public Schools to Tech Entrepreneurship Excellence #africa #education #technology #entrepreneurship #inspiration
What if the key to transforming your passion into a successful career lies within the stories of your upbringing? Join us as we sit down with tech entrepreneur Iving Amukasa for an inspiring journey through his early life in Kenya. From his birth in Nairobi and childhood adventures in Isili, Mombasa, and Maseno, Iving recounts how public school resources like swimming pools and computer labs ignited his love for technology. He emphasizes the crucial role of investing in public institutions and the impactful efforts of organizations like Food for Education in shaping young minds.
Ever wondered how academic challenges shape one's path to greatness? Iving paints a vivid picture of his schooling experiences, navigating different primary schools, and tackling the demanding KCPE exams. Get a detailed look at how mastering exam techniques and overcoming resource limitations can lead to exceptional academic performance. Additionally, we discuss the contrasts between Kenya’s traditional 8-4-4 system and the new Competency-Based Curriculum, shedding light on the ongoing challenges in educational reform and the crucial need for resource management and support for teachers.
But that's not all – discover how friendships, sports, and extracurricular activities cultivated Iving’s personal growth and professional network. We celebrate the strong alumni community of Maseno School, the life lessons from playing rugby, and the parallels between sports and tech. As the conversation unfolds, Iving shares his evolution from academic excellence to tech entrepreneurship, revealing the highs and lows of startup ventures like SophieBot. Through hackathons, strategic studying, and real-world applications, Iving's story underscores the importance of marrying education with practical skills and the transformative power of technology in driving social change. Don’t miss this episode packed with wisdom and actionable insights!
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yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Thank you so much. It's me again, michael Kemadi, hosting Impact Masters podcast, in collaboration with Africa's Talking Retail Podcast, coming to you live this beautiful evening, and today we have a wonderful guest. Before we start, hit subscribe button and notification bell on YouTube and on iTunes or our Apple podcast, you'll find us as Africa stalking return podcasts, impact masters podcasts, google podcast. You'll find us as the same names Amazon music. Come on, start the podcast hosts. Show some love.
Speaker 1:We are showcasing impact masters across Africa, people who are making a change using tech, movers and shakers in tech. And today we have a wonderful, wonderful guest. You're going to enjoy this one we have Iving Amukasa. Iving Amukasa is passionate about our technology, especially our mobile technology, and better the way we live, learn and interact. This guy is so brief as it comes, but when you meet him he's full of energy. I knew him, I think, 10 years ago. He's been doing amazing stuff. He's the builder of Sophie Bots, he's good in Android, passionate about AI and bots, and he describes himself as a developer, tech, entrepreneur. How are you, mkasa?
Speaker 2:Shukran, thanks for having me. Thanks for the introduction. I was nice, but then I'm better. I'm better now. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1:So in this podcast, you believe that we cannot tell an African man's story without getting to know who he is. The best way to know who someone is in Africa is just actually talking with them and understanding who they are. And for us here, we take it all the way back. Where did it all start? Where did Amukasa start? Oh, hey, twanze, twanze, shirotsama, twanze Nairobi. Okay, where were you born? Did it all start? Where did Amukasa start?
Speaker 2:Oh, hey, but we'll start in Nairobi.
Speaker 1:Okay, where were you?
Speaker 2:born. I was born in Nairobi Avenue Nursing Home. I grew up in Isili for most of my life, I grew up in Isili, yeah, but then I've lived in Isili, I've lived in Mombasa, ah nice, yeah. And then, you know, after high school, I used to spend a couple of my holidays up country, because I was in Zanyanza, okay, I was in Maseno Karim. So yeah, I've lived across Kenya. Kenya from. Isili Nairobi from Mombasa to Kizingu, Hamjambo and around Maseno and Ushago U.
Speaker 1:That is interesting because now that gives me a different perspective of a mkasa and I want us to go step by step. So assuming I just want to live that life that you lived with you, right? So you were born in Islay, which part in Islay?
Speaker 2:It's section three. There's a place called Sun City.
Speaker 1:Sun City. Funny enough I still vote there.
Speaker 2:You're so attached to Isili. I still vote for Isili, so Isili is section 3. That is.
Speaker 1:Stare right no it's Kamukunji Kamukunji.
Speaker 2:I still vote there. Isili High School. I still vote there. It's still high school. Bigger school is high school, but then I used to go to school in Bahati. We used to go to Mirimakilet.
Speaker 1:That is class 1 to class 8.
Speaker 2:Class 1 to class 5. So. Mirimakilet and then we used to go to Kimathi. Funny story about this. Like you never expect like a public school to have a swimming pool in Nairobi, but then like one of the weird, like one of the before, like free education it was good, but then like services should have kept a Nairobi primary, like one of the three public schools that actually had a swimming pool in the compound, so it was really nice for that class.
Speaker 1:Class five so you went there for a swimming pool.
Speaker 2:No, that was the funniest thing, that was the thing I remember Like a complab came in later and that's what. Like picked up my interest for computers, but then that was the thing that like stuck into my mind because imagine like leaving. Then the time I'm in Mombasa and we had to like yeah, our school didn't. We had to go to the school across to swim, like we had like a week every day so you guys, you schooled in Bahati from class 1, class 5 right yeah, so then you guys moved to Mombasa.
Speaker 2:I moved to Mombasa, lived with a couple of cousins of mine in Mombasa. There I was in a school called Presbyterian. So across Presbyterian there's a Catholic school right across Presbyterian that we go to. So it's stuck in my mind how can a public school have that many resources while private schools? In Mombasa is the swimming capital of the world of Kenya, but there you don't find such amenities. So it's a thing that struck in my mind that if investment is made in public institutions, kids can have the best services ever. You don't have to pay, even at primary school level. You don't have to pay at a premium so that your kid has the best services.
Speaker 2:It's still in my mind oh nice, that's, that's fantastic. I wish my primary school had a single man. It could be the best for for our public schools they call public schools in canada should have something like the least I have a computer lab at least.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Those two, yeah, the most important food. What are?
Speaker 2:our food uh food for people, our friends at food for education. That is food, food for people, a friend, that food for education. What is the idea? What is the idea for?
Speaker 1:20 bobos. Is it 20 bobos or 5 bobos?
Speaker 2:20 bobos, which is which is reasonable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we need to get that, yeah, yeah so any other memory for your lower primary school?
Speaker 2:yeah, okay. So again, I think it goes back to the no, is it no? So Again, I think it goes back to the no, is it no? So yeah, it goes to my mom and that's all like it's to know me. So I was taught as an early age like there's nothing I can't do, because there was a time when I was in, yeah, that probably there was a fad in my school.
Speaker 2:I remember Dexter's Laboratory, like the cartoon. So people made like in papers, scrap papers, and then it got into a formula. I had like three calls for new layout, but then I was like I can't draw even. But then I made a mistake. I went home with a copy of one of those drawings and then I told my mom, even now I can't draw. But then my mom like I see, even now I can't do it, but then you'll stay there, you'll keep tracing that item over and over again until you can draw it. So since then I learned like, oops, there's nothing you can't you, you can't do as long as you practice right yeah, as long as you take at it like some things may be harder for you.
Speaker 2:Yes, because, like, people are skilled differently. But then if you keep at it like, like there's nothing, you cannot, there's no skill out there, you can't, ultimately, ultimately, master, ultimately, ultimately, and even master, get to a point of competence Like yeah if you keep at it, there's no skill out there. You can't get competent, competent in.
Speaker 2:And you say this to believe this by your mom. My mom, yeah, early on, because I cast, I made a border sign and later I pitched her home. My mom was like, yeah, I'll cast you on TV. Like, come on, keep drawing, keep trying over and over until and then I go, I can draw Dexter from Dexter's Laboratory, because the difficult part was his hair. Because his hair and there are three different ways. But aside from that, his race with FIS is like simple shapes, like street life. He loses like a triangle. So yeah, since then I learned there's nothing I can't learn.
Speaker 1:And yeah, that comes handy later on, Sure sure, and does your mom really do this by, you know, convincing you why it's important, or she beats you to it? You know there are people who also get beaten to learn these skills.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So you know me, being beaten down is for discipline, it's not for skills. Skills are for being able to say you're not standing from there until you master it and then, until once I master it, like it's like I do a little bit of hard work. So if it was like, yeah, this a bit down, it'll go for, for, for for. In case of yeah, in discipline yeah. Like we should do a little steak or music Cause I think I stole.
Speaker 1:like like coming from. That's very important.
Speaker 2:We'll go Like when you have a cupboard, when you have a TV, like change, it's like you're leaving it there. You've thrown something, you're leaving it there. And the relatives like used to come and visit us in Shanghai, Like how do you leave like money in there? So this change. So one day he made a mistake, like picked a one-bob from me.
Speaker 2:Because it's open like we were like it's open, like it's never in me to pick something that isn't mine. Yeah, you just ask yeah, and then since then I do allow, like, even if I build my own house, it'll be like yeah, so the money I use is in place, because everyone you go buy something you change, leave it, leave it, leave it.
Speaker 1:Traditability.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when I was in high school, like my cardboard, I put it down Cardboard. That place is gone because everyone knows you know you are gone. So it's one of the weirdest things.
Speaker 1:You also remember from your childhood, yeah, from my childhood.
Speaker 2:Everything is in the open, especially about cash, and that everyone is responsible. There is no money, yeah, there is no money. There is no man who pays. Little money, little money.
Speaker 1:And how was that relocation from Eastleigh to Mombasa for you?
Speaker 2:I was young and then I was, so one of my favorite cousins called Brandon. So at first it was exciting because, yeah, it's because I went for the December. And then they told me like yeah, you're hanging around here. I adjusted really well and then I had like a month in December to get used to the heat and all. So I think the difference was probably when I was in. You see, I didn't play as much, I was like I was in the house and then Mombasa, like once the house is cleaned, I was in the house to Kenya Because of the weather that does not allow you to be in the house.
Speaker 2:and then yeah, and I think also like out of my home, like you're very centered around the TV, but then, mombasa, they're like trying to. So, yeah, go read, go find something else to go. So I played, like I played a ton. I've never played that much A thing that happened. It kind of like I never knew I was smart Because you're class four, you're under people who are bright, but then, mombasa, they start standing apart Like your classroom, you're going to do entrance exams and you're doing better than everyone. And that was when I was like, okay, probably there's something here I never knew I was smart. Mombasa like sort of cemented, probably because the school is in Nairobi from like a bunch of brilliant people.
Speaker 1:So you could say confidently that Nairobi is excess of everything.
Speaker 2:I think it was the thing with that school, probably the thing I think the thing with, like how public schools, so that means resources, what it attracted and what not, and there wasn't a difference.
Speaker 2:and then Mombasa, that's when, like the difference, like came through and I think also like cause work and material keeps changing from that class class five, class five class. And that's when I started getting started being differentiated Like like you know pressure, you know people are like you know pressure from class one to class, so class five. It's weird, like where teachers are talking to you like, ah, you need, like you know you're doing what you need to do. But I'm like I'm doing what?
Speaker 2:I need to do, it's fine. So that's probably where I learned, like, where I learned like I was academically gifted, like, like some things came easier to me and that's when I learned I learned about, aside from that, like I never played as much as I played in my cousin brandon, like, even, like, even, for I even learned how to do my own laundry because we used to play every time time I used to go to the master.
Speaker 2:like, uniform has to be a white shirt, it has to be a white shirt, like when my cousin like play like sweat, get that, everything is, everything is dirty. And then I was like, no, you have to learn to do your own laundry. Now I think that's when I learned how to, how I think I remember most is the two things Academically, like knowing. I was like different, and then some things came easier to me academically.
Speaker 1:And the second thing is yeah, I never played as much as I played as I was in Mombasa, so you did your class five to eight in Mombasa.
Speaker 2:Presbyterian primary school. Yeah, so two Presbyterian and Mwingo so Presbyterian. I did class six and then Mwingo Presbyterian primary school yeah, presbyterian. Yeah, so two Presbyterian and Mwingo so Presbyterian. I took class six and then Mwingo like class seven, and then Mwingo class eight.
Speaker 1:Why did you keep moving, switching schools?
Speaker 2:Again, it's a bit complicated. But then so my dad felt the Presbyterian I was like like Atlanta was different. Like they noticed I was in, if I was in the best in that school for that year, it was too, like it wasn't a bigger challenge yeah, a bigger challenge for me, and I needed to constantly push myself so like. So I remember taking the entrance exam for like Mwingo and my pass. Like I got like an 80 on their math, because it's really new, like they had a focus on math. I got like an 86 on their math, 86% on their math people, and I was like, yeah, this is good, this is good. But then, like the teacher says that, oh, I did an entrance exam. You see, that's good Little did I know like 10 people in that class. Yeah, I'm even friends with those guys that you know, josephine and and josephine and kof. So, yeah, like it was a whole different level.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was. I call it a drill school for kcp. Yeah, so that's that's. That was a different, it was a bigger, it was a bigger, it was a bigger challenge. It was. It was more drilling for exams like you can master the concept, yes, but then, like, exams are a test of how prepared you are for for them. So it was more drilling for exams, like you can master the concept, yes, but then, like, exams are a test of how prepared you are for them.
Speaker 1:So it was a whole difference, so you did your KCP there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did my KCP there.
Speaker 1:And how did you perform?
Speaker 2:I got a 420.
Speaker 1:Out of 500? Yeah, out of 500.
Speaker 2:It was those Misiwa, misiwa 600.
Speaker 1:I'm not that old 700, Because those 700.
Speaker 2:It was used to be 700. So I got up for 20. Then, Weirdly enough, it's the same exam I did. I got like a mock and I was like it's fine. And then from there I got up for 20. Then I think, yeah, I made like you must have been on papers. No, I took 100 Mombasa or something.
Speaker 1:Not nationally.
Speaker 2:Nationally. I got up 440s and 80s. Yeah, I think this was 2009,. 2009 to 8. It was right after yeah, it was right after 2008 to 2009 to 8. I got a 420.
Speaker 3:If I'd got, if I'd done that, it was pretty good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would have gotten like 400 plus before, but then, yeah, it was a whole new level, like even like I keep joking like my workload in high school wasn't as much as it was. Oh, those guys used to drill you guys so you had to like go through an entire English paper but then not just answer questions. You have to basically replicate the entire paper on your textbook, like you're writing every question and answering what was the reason for? That to basically replicate the entire paper on your textbook.
Speaker 1:Like you're writing every question and answering.
Speaker 2:What was the reason for that? They wanted to like the material to be that familiar with you. And there's a thing people have. I don't know why they're surprised they're realizing this year, like Nair keeps reusing past examples. Even for math.
Speaker 2:like for math, it was notorious. Like for math was notorious. Like Math paper. I think like an entire class did it within 30 minutes because, like, you reconsider this, like you've gone through all past papers before, like and you've gone over, like, you've written out every single question and the choices and you answer for every single frequent choice and you've gone through it over and over again. You're like, but then you still work it out, just to be sure, within 30 minutes I think 70% of our class was done with the math paper and there used to be multiple choice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, multiple choice, and then it's repeated and then they're like how are you done in 30 minutes? It's like an hour. Math paper is like an hour. And how are you done an hour long paper in like 30 minutes? Like what are you going to do? He's cheating. I'm like no, like you recognize, like question 15 is from KCP 201. It was actually question 52. Question 50 is that it was like yeah, it kept reinforcing that knowledge. Like, yeah, you can master the content, yes, but then exams are a test of how well prepared you are for them, it's the thing I carry on at your level Like.
Speaker 2:Exams are a test of how you're prepared, a thing. They're not just how you're prepared, they're not just of you mastering the content.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so Amukasa now that you have CBC I don't know if you're familiar with it it keeps confusing me, like is it 722? Is it, you know, 423? Whatever it is in terms of the years that you take. But one thing that strikes me is how they approach different subjects More hands-on instead of theory. So I don't know what's your take on that man having scored 420.
Speaker 2:Again. Yeah, the system was in need of review. Problem is, I think there's a lot of 4-4-ish implementation of CBC. So those hands-on tests were like a kid is supposed to make a toy truck, you know, like parents are taking that to carpet like the local fundis. So the problem is sometimes like some parents are doing it right and actively, being, actively taking a part in their children's education. The question is the parents who are still trying to as long as things are submitted. So that's the thing that needs to be figured out. They need to resolve that. Junior high, junior and senior primary math. They need to sort through that, yeah. And third thing is resources. So for kids outside of this suburban setting, how?
Speaker 1:do they?
Speaker 2:get the materials for their hands.
Speaker 1:Even here, you know when you have to buy things throughout the term it's crazy man, especially for those who are not medium earners. And even medium earners is quite a toll, especially when you have to buy exactly what needs to be bought or print, and you know, printing one paper sometimes can go up to like 30 shillings per paper or per page If it's colored 50 bob If it's colored, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's crazy. So my take actually is like, in terms of resources, I see a problem. Of course, I understand if it's a bit confusing, because the same people who are teaching 844 are the same people who are teaching 8 for 4, are the same people who are learning how to teach CBC, so I cannot expect them to be so perfect in it. So if I think the education ministry or the Kenya Institute of Education listen to this, maybe there needs to be a relation around resource management as well as also catering for those who are not in the urban areas where there is so much access.
Speaker 2:Urban areas yeah, where there's so much access Access resources yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So you get invited to which national schools?
Speaker 2:So there was okay, this is not drama.
Speaker 1:Was it just one or?
Speaker 2:No, yeah, so it was one. So I had three choices. So Mangu Maseno, I forgot the last. I think Utumidjo was my third choice, and then like Fila, like Fila, like I don't even care about the rest.
Speaker 1:So the most important one was Mangu and Maseno, mangu, maseno.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think Utumisha was the third choice. And then I was like, well, you have to choose a provincial law and a local law. They even had like beef with like is, but I was like I'm not going there, like I know, alucan is national. No, no, no national. Like for the local, like I think divisional or like lower. That is like Alucan Mombasa.
Speaker 2:Mombasa yeah, because it was like right across the road. So I was like, yeah, fill in. They filled it in because it's one of those like you have to fill it in, but then you're like it's even filling in for the and then I was chosen to go to Maseno. So I got the calling letter to Maseno, but I don't know, kenyans like being shady, so there's some drama about oh, we can talk to someone at Mango. I was like no, I've been called to Maseno, let me go to.
Speaker 1:Oh, you were not called to Mango. I was not called to Mango because in national you have to be called to one only one, yeah, one, one, yeah, one choice.
Speaker 2:I never even followed up the rest of the invitation. Maseno later came in and was like, yeah, this is it. So there was drama about like oh yeah, we can talk to someone at Mangu and I was like no, it's. Maseno, let's do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's do it, but did you like Mangu or yourself?
Speaker 2:So again, I never knew I was smart until class four. You know the people who their entire life dream about going to a national, never mind. It's a school, so, maseno, it's fine. It's the same caliber, national level. You go look up who the alumni are Jaramogi, the rest it's fine Around the school I and like, yeah, the rest, yeah, it's fine Like around, like the school I was in Mwingo, like there's an entire hype around Alliance or Stareya.
Speaker 1:No, in every primary school that's the case, man, for me that never fazed me.
Speaker 2:I was like, yeah, it's Masano, let's go. I think I was the second in the last five years. I was like the second student to be invited to Maseno from that school. I was like it's fine and I had. So I keep saying Maseno, I had the best best of times and I had the worst of times. I won't change it for the while, because the thing was most people forget about, like this high school, it's not in the name of the school, it's sort of the networks, the people in the network.
Speaker 2:The people I leave. I left from high school. I have a close network with them. It's a close-knit network of guys. Whenever I meet someone and I know someone who is in Maseno, I reach out to them. We even keep finding other people who are in Maseno. We could be years away from me.
Speaker 1:The funniest one is Frank Tambry. You have said very, very important thing about schools sometime beyond education. It's the people you meet, the networks that you form and if you actually click in terms of what interests you have and what they have, which is very, very important for the investors. But we'll get there. So you meet Tamre at this point.
Speaker 2:That's one of the guys. No, so Tamre, so Tamre after like years after I graduated and we fought together in tech. So Tamre speaks like a thing on Nile iHub and then when we follow each other on Facebook like it did, he graduate before you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, years ahead of years, I think two years before, even two or three years before I even joined, like a year, yeah. So it's a small tight-knit network we call we do like and like alliance people, shade, shade, who keep reminding people who they went to alliance. So, maseno, we used to call ourselves MOBA. It's like a code word for people who in the know to accept. So if somebody knows like ah Ujamaa Likonga Moba.
Speaker 2:So if somebody knows like ah Ujamaa Likonga Maseno, you like there's an instant connection? Yeah, and I keep meeting people from Maseno even now Are they cool people. Yeah, the coolest people ever. You know Ichanze, Ichanze from. So a couple of people in the mobile space from Maseno Roni.
Speaker 1:Roni who.
Speaker 2:Oh sorry, roland Oti. Roland Oti, maybe I don't know his name.
Speaker 1:Maybe I know them if I see them, but not their names.
Speaker 2:There are people in tech who are old boys. There are people in the mobile space who are Maseno Like if you see us on Twitter talking you will know it's us.
Speaker 1:These are Maseno boys, old boys talking. I didn't know.
Speaker 2:Maseno, I think a couple years after like and you oh, maseno. The funniest bit I noticed was I was at Kabeberi and then I don't know why I've refused to eat. So people who are at Maseno will gradually, years after me, look older than me and they keep making me look like where. Kwanimu I say, come and have you. So yeah, like it's a small tiny network Also.
Speaker 1:Sigu was there, right, I think, yeah, I think Sigu, I think Sigu was there, sigu was there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the most surprising one was Nani was. The most surprising one was nani was Frank Tam Like yo look at us, let's go. So it's the small that I need. And then, yeah, it always happens. So there are some people who got into that more by fraternity and they organize school events. And then there are us who, like we know each other in communities and now you need something you're paying them and like oh yeah, do you have this?
Speaker 2:yeah, you have that, uh, okay, so I should go back. So, uh, so for. So for context, so machine is a national school by name and it has, like the oldest facilities ever. It was set up around 1906. Oh, okay, and then an investment hasn't been on the infrastructure per se. The investment has been into programs in in masano, like it has the best rugby program, one of the best basketball programs, but then I think in Form 1, like my classroom, what are these programs?
Speaker 2:Yeah, like so how the school actually funds activities outside class and actively encourage them. So we spent four years being called gentlemen and then we kept being told, like, success outside the classroom is a marker for success in the classroom. So if it's games time and you're studying new, go out there and explore life.
Speaker 2:Go out there and play and it's the thing at the back of a man. So when you join in Masaya you check in at the dining hall and then all across the dining hall there are achievement plates with all the ways and what they achieved, like across there.
Speaker 1:You find Jaramogi or Gingo. What they achieved. You'll find Jaramogi, ogingo, dinka. There, you'll find Frank Tamre.
Speaker 2:Amukasa. Buildad, buildad, namuambo Kagiya. No, no, he's in tech. He's in tech Buildad, he was like the hockey team. And then it's not only academic, academic like a few. But then the rest is one's in nationals rugby, one's in nationals basketball, and Congress won a medal at Nene. And that was instant From day one.
Speaker 2:So from day one I was like, yeah, I have to get on one of those blocks, and it was just not for academic things, because academic is sort of like a given, because you're all you, you're the big with the most brilliant mind, high, brilliant 14 year olds from all across. Kind of all can you do aside from from, from, from, from score getting good good grades and for me, like I like for first, first time for one, like I knew, like it was the back of my hand, I tried like football.
Speaker 3:That was like no, this isn't it, this is this, this isn't it.
Speaker 2:I was even scared like nah, this isn't it. This isn't it. I was even scared Like this, isn't it. So there was a skill gap and I was like, second jump, first thing I did. They just joined the rugby team and they learned the game from them. So even that, even stronger than just being a guy from Maseno. So, guys who played rugby in of guys from you, guys are good with rugby.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we do the only competitors were Viga or Kakamega, kakamega, kakamega. Nationally they produce even national players right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they do. What's the secret?
Speaker 1:Is it the food?
Speaker 2:Again investing in the program, actively encourage it. So there are kids like our rugby team used to have, where you only get them when you're going to represent the school outside the school and wearing one of them was the greatest badges of one another, like have to get it. It could have forest green. So yeah, like that's like creating that incentive programs in the school to push more people to actively pursue the sport. So yeah. So aside from that, it was a stronger community. I even learned like leadership. So usually off-season the captains and the team run practice sessions.
Speaker 1:What is off-season in Masena?
Speaker 2:So Sunodjo rugby is in term one and term two, so term one used to be so when I started seventh. Forgive my ignorance.
Speaker 1:We never played ignorance. It's all good. It's all good, it's all good. The closest we get to rugby, the school I was in, there's a guy who came from Patch and he tried to like you know. You know, patch is really good. Yeah, they're like oh we, we used to play rugby. And then we were like show us, show us.
Speaker 1:And then we contributed some money bought a ball but of course I was in seminary so that was not one of the biggest things to do there so yeah, for us investment in the school is getting balls.
Speaker 2:Like you think you need one ball, you do not need. Like you need an entire storeroom with balls. You need an entire storero or a classroom with weights. You need a classroom with kids. You need a dedicated rugby pitch. You need a tackle bag. You need tackle bags for training. We had something used to call a scrum machine For training.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a metal thing. Oh, you guys are serious about these things. Yeah, I've seen those things on the rugby, you know professional rugby channel.
Speaker 2:So yeah, like scrum machines in school. Every program has like a scrum machine and so that was the investment. And then, aside from that, you're building incentive fractures for more people to try out the sport. I had the best. I think I had more fun in the rugby pitch and in the computer lab than actual, actual studying, actually studying, studying there, because that was my goal. I was like, yeah, I've done X, y, z, like academics is not a problem. Yeah, I want to play rugby. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So you're saying something about off-season, oh so, yeah, term one was, yeah, term one you play. So back then, term one, you used to play seventh. Term two, 15th. So there are two chances for you to make the team and then, in time, three, there are no like actual, there's no like rugby games happening. So that's when it's, that's when you prepare for the next season.
Speaker 2:So during then, our rugby coach would never show up for a training, like he'd show up with a coffee cup and then see what you're doing. But aside from that, it's you for new people, to learn new skills and new people. And then for you to hone, like, the basics of the, the game. And during that time, this, uh, the, the, the, the coaches never like actually coach, because I coach the teacher, like he never showed up, and to actually run the training. Captains, because it's someone in form four, someone in form three, because they know the program, they're the ones who take me through through drills and yeah, yeah, it's a reinforcement on how leadership was given, someone, one of you guys willing to stand up and willing to deliver. I think that's what it is. If I'm in a room and no one wants to start a conversation, I'll stand up, I've seen you.
Speaker 1:I've seen you on both sides, where you start conversation, where you start problems, and we'll talk about that in a few.
Speaker 2:So that's where I learned yeah.
Speaker 1:So you do all these things but you never like immerse yourself in like a game like football, rugby, music festival, drama.
Speaker 2:I did rugby and science, because when you're doing rugby, like you don't day, it's training Every day, like every day, like from five to five to six.
Speaker 2:After classes After classes, so far like it was games times. Every day, all guys go to the rugby pitch and then the best part of it was Saturday was games. Like it was game day. All the games, yeah, no, no, it was game day. Like for rugby pitch. Like it's 20 of you in a pitch, you divide it into two or three teams, maybe go around playing seven, and then preps end at lunchtime on Saturday. So the entire day on Saturday, the entire half day on Saturday, the entire half day on Sunday. You're just going out there and playing Because you're there to play rugby. We even had more fun on Saturdays than actually presenting the school outside very nice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was one of the fun, one of the fun even now we meet someone from Maseno, someone who did rugby. You spend like 30 minutes sharing stories of how you used to be, yeah, like what things happened on the pitch there on that. Saturday. That was one of the funnest times. That's where people like, that's where you prove yourself. You've earned a spot on the team. Yeah, that was one of the funnest times.
Speaker 1:And something else, amukasa about the rugby. I know once you talk about rugby you cannot talk about rugby without cheerleading. Were there like a strong cheerleading team in Maseno.
Speaker 2:So again, that was whoever was loudest and stand up, and you are loud guy.
Speaker 1:Oh, you're not the loudest.
Speaker 2:I'm the loudest but then say I mean I mean kids. Then even if I'm on the bench, I mean kids. That's why I don't have time to. The thing I used to like most was sidecups before games. So even before sidecups before games, I even remember them like the back of my, the back of my mind you want to chant a few maybe, maybe the shortest one so this is and they are quite intimidating.
Speaker 2:It is intimidating, but then I used to like simmer down and with Ebwana, ebwana Toba Okombe Moja Zahidi, they used to like you psyched up before before.
Speaker 1:Saying what you said, but with more energy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Even like psych-ups were one of the things I remember the most. What else, what else? Yeah that. And yeah, in game a rugby legend got to play with and like this is the thing I kept telling people. So Billy Lamek, billy the kid, billy Odiyambo yeah, he was a year ahead of me and I actually played played rugby with him the first time like actually had gameplay. We had that Saturday.
Speaker 2:Merigorao, nini, nini and someone on my team like gets injured and then Billy like subs in for them and then the thing Billy does is there's a thing in rugby, when you get tackled like you form a rack like easy, like recycle the tackle, recycling the ball himself moving forward, getting tackled again, recycling. I was like yo, like let us play, like yeah, that was the thing, that, that the, the, uh, what was it? One of the weird, uh interesting thing I remember. So, uh, most people think like rugby it's like a huge, very physical, very physical game, but then the masano style of rugby emphasized hands, like how well you pass, so make the ball, do all the work and find opportunities at the wings and then fancy plays, fancy passes, fancy plays. So I specialised in a couple of those. Yeah, like that was my best.
Speaker 2:That and the computer lab were my best experiences.
Speaker 1:So if someone could not find you on the pitch, they could find you in the computer lab. So which position did you use to play on the?
Speaker 2:pitch. I played a scrammuff, so scrammuff is so we had like.
Speaker 1:That is in the middle or side, or it's in the middle. It's like a.
Speaker 2:It's like a point guard, like you're the ones who passes between. So there are two different, there are two types of teams. You have the line guys who run the ball and you have the guys in the scrum, so the heavy guys in the scrum down, so the guys who passes the ball from the scrum down to the line guys so that the play can happen is called a scrum off. Whenever a rack happens, the guy comes in and restarts plays. So it's like an orchestra, so you're the one who chooses which.
Speaker 1:So you're the playmaker.
Speaker 2:You're close to the, you can be the playmaker, but the other playmaker is the guy you directly parallel. So there's a guy you call a fly half. The fly half is the fanciest position In rugby. They kick, they pass, they do all the fancy. They call moves. So it's a second. Your choice is finding. So your goal was for vision. Your job was to look at the defense line. This is the rack as formed. Look at the defense line, have vision and see where the gaps are.
Speaker 2:In sevens there's an additional task, Like when you're defending. There's someone like this you're line defending and then there's someone else behind. We call them a sweeper. So in sevens, your scrum off is also doubles up as a sweeper. And then in 15s, your entire job is to make sure the ball is moving, the ball is getting. As soon as the rack forms, you're making the pass. It's called for quick hands, quick pass and smart moves. Yeah, so South Africa just won the World Cup. Yeah, For people out there Faf de Klaak, the position Faf de Klaak plays. I used to play that. So the short guy, short, tiny guy who's always chasing bigger people trying to make tackles. So I was playing that position.
Speaker 1:So you still watch these rugby games? Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:I do, I do, I do Like the World Cup that just finished up was crazy. It was crazy, yeah, which is crazy, crazy, crazy so this is very interesting.
Speaker 1:Maybe we should bring some of these you know sevens players, or you know, because for us it's just checking who is doing an amazing stuff in Africa, because really do we showcase like South Africa won, but how many people get to sit down and tell what actually went on before even the winning? Because I know most of the work that is done is behind?
Speaker 1:the scenes yeah so if we get a chance, maybe possibly we will showcase some of those, yeah. So yeah, just if you are listening to us, please follow us, subscribe, show some love and that will help us.
Speaker 2:I think I can bully what's Oscar Uma? Oscar Uma is a friend of mine and he's into tack, so I can probably bully him. So Oscar. Uma, if you're seeing this, I might bully him in the podcast yeah, just let him know.
Speaker 1:We would be glad to host him just to talk about what happens in rugby, and I'm so sad that now we don't do it much nationally and internationally. I don't know what's up, man, maybe you know more than I do it's management.
Speaker 2:It's like we were supposed to be in Dubai, play as, so we're out of the circuit, but then we could play like as one of the expansion teams in Dubai, like in the Dubai 7s, but then we didn't do it. So it was two things it was management and it was coaching. So we had please don't come and beat me we had a guy called Bofa. I've forgotten his name. Bofa, I've forgotten it's his full name. So we went with a very physical brand of rugby where it's only kifuwa kifuwa nying, only kifuwa kifuwa nyingi, kifuwa kifuwa nyingi, boshing boshing, rather than running though the ball in. That cost us the circuit and management cost us being in the circuit. We were supposed to be in this seventh circuit, but that failed.
Speaker 2:The glitter, the small glitters of hope, is that we were in the World Cup, in the, in the, in the sevens Olympics. We qualified for that, beating South Africa to qualify for that. So we had to go to qualifiers and we qualified for for that. So the, the regional heart of rugby, is coming back where we are recycling the ball because it's sevens. Like there are four fewer people on the pitch in Giza, in Giza Kifua, so the pitch is very huge. A few of you guys on the pitch. If you move the ball fast enough, you can find opportunities in wings, you can create opportunities in the centers and that's where we're going back to that brand of rugby.
Speaker 2:This is a new blood. Who's moving, apart from the Bofa Routuan? Like physicality in sevens we were getting very physical. Rather than making the ball do the work for us, all you need to do is like fixing problems at KFC, krfua it's KRU, kru or KRFUA, like either of yeah and then management. Because I was there this year. I was at KBVT 7. I thought it was the last seven things happening and then, out of nowhere, they tell us oh, safaricom 7 is back.
Speaker 2:People didn't show for safaricom 7, but Kauberi was was parked, was parked, so that's the thing we need to to fix, and then also we need to consider, like improving that 15s 15s game we've been losing to Uganda in very few, so we need to.
Speaker 1:And it's cranes, cranes, yeah, cranes, yeah. What do they call their rugby team? I know the football is cranes, yeah, anyway, I think yeah, they call so many of their products cranes.
Speaker 2:I think it's cranes so it was Victoria Cup. We lost. We lost by a single point to them in Victoria Cup, yeah, but then in the Elgon Cup, it was happening in Nairobi, things happened. So, yeah, we need to. The fitness game can improve too, so there's opportunities for and the talent is there.
Speaker 1:Oh, very nice, Very nice. So you get to Form 4. Ah yeah, what was those experiences in class that you remember vividly? Okay, so I think to Form 4.
Speaker 2:Ah, yeah, what was those experiences in class that you remember vividly? Okay, so I think at Form 4, that's when I figured out like I'm going into tech full time so we used to have like late prep, so our prep used to end at 11. But then from 9 pm you could leave. People were doing computer science like computer studies, progress. You could leave class and go to computer science, like computer studies you could leave. You could leave class and go to the comp club and like that's what I used to do. And then Friday night we used to pool all night all night in the comp club.
Speaker 2:so we got to a time like our projects were done, like fully, entirely. We were entirely done. We were just having fun playing around with computer labs. You remember that from 4 you usually make a book, a scrapbook, where people leave their numbers. I made one with the same way. We're using Microsoft Access and then Visual Basic for application. It's coding on top of all the access and that's why I learned how to do it, even though I don't like relational databases in actual, real life.
Speaker 2:I learned basic for relational databases there. I built my first project. By the time we were done I built one of those scrapbooks and I was telling guys, oh yeah, for prep, when's this game set? Could you any complab? And you're like, yeah, it was a fancy way to collect and that's when I knew I'm going. I'm going to spend the rest of my life with with computers so how did you perform in KCSE?
Speaker 2:so it was funny now, yeah. So like I knew I was doing, I was going to do like we all knew, like all return of us was going to do well, yeah. But then I think, like for that, like class three, because it's like for three years, three and a half years, I was like leaving for game time, like you're doing class work, but then five games. But so I was only leaving for the computer lab. I did well, I got an A. I was expecting an A in the list because I was in the middle of the pack. So yeah, again, you're 300 of you in a class, like from four, like not in a single class, like your tests like all the streams combined.
Speaker 2:Five streams like 300 class of you. I used to award like the top 80, like every year, and I was usually at the tail end of the top 80 guys. I was in the middle of the middle of the park. I was expecting like an e-minus. I got yeah, I got a in a um, but again like it was all about the books.
Speaker 1:It's just about what you can do with it yeah what you can do later.
Speaker 2:and then the thing my biggest takeaway was was what was, what's this called, was I was going to do things with computers and what else Plus academic knowledge Can you put, can you put onto the, can you put on the on the table? But again, I think I'm also jaded against the entire education system because you usually think like, yes, you've got an opportunity, you've got an A like the world should be but, it doesn't.
Speaker 2:It doesn't you have to still hustle on your own, you have to get opportunities on your own, and that's what I learned. Even for anyone out there who didn't do as well as I did, it doesn't matter as much as you think. Once you've achieved that, it's a thing.
Speaker 2:It's on to the next achievement, yeah, it's on to the next achievement. And for me, that's when I think I was sort of done with school, done with school, I knew I was working with computers the rest of my life. So right after form four, even before results came in, I was, I was like I was going to work with computers and at that time the point, the first frontier was Android, android, android app. So I did, caught in the fanfare of oh, you got this. Or for, funny enough, I never got onto one of those plaques because of rugby, because, like the highest you got, we got a silver medal for 15s when I was in form 3 but never won any national title after that. So I wasn't in one of those plaques for rugby, but I got in one of those plaques because of, like academic one of those plaques because of academic performance. It got like 91. Like 100 people in my class got A's. Like a third of my Asian class got A's.
Speaker 1:That is including A-minors.
Speaker 2:No, no, it's just a plain A's, like hundreds of us, like a third of us got A's. And then what else? There used to be a friction between my parents because they see I'm in the middle of my park and they thought I wasn't performing as well. I was like no, our tests aren't standardized, the grading isn't standardized, the grading isn't normalized like I'm doing. And my dad would show up for those academic links and they tell them oh, your child is doing your child is doing Me, no, I'm doing fine. They used to like book for me. Holidays, those like holiday tuitions. You go to holiday tuitions and you notice like you are ahead of everyone and you're like why are you making me?
Speaker 1:I need to rest and maybe have some good time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:But now that you've mentioned about holiday tuitions, do you advocate for those?
Speaker 2:No, like just do you like let the school give the child an assignment and then let's do it. Funny enough, when I was in school you'd have like three set of exams like opening exams, opening exam, middle exam, and then it needs to perform better in the opening one than the rest of the school. Because when I was in school I'm only studying in the classroom and perhaps outside of the time I'm doing other things outside of the classroom. In the classroom and perhaps outside of the time I'm doing other things outside of the classroom. But then when I'm home, see, I have to like finish up my, my curriculum and then I try and read ahead. So I used to spend holidays like doing reading ahead a bit. So past holidays, like first exam, like opening exam, I used to like do really, really all of it.
Speaker 2:Everyone else was rusted. And then when I'm in school, like it normalizes for, for, for us, even think like, like people ops, like I was, my index was like 91 and like because I was like they did that exam at the beginning of form one. And then they used to like do, like weekly tests and reshuffle according to that. So the reshuffling I was in, I think I was like, all of these stuff don't matter. The one that matters is the final exam. So I'll keep doing rugby, I'll keep doing other things. When it came to the exam, people were like how Amukasa, why are you in? How are you in? Like that was the second class and I was constantly in the bottom because like.
Speaker 2:I knew in the, the final exam actually the rest was just filler. My thoughts on education was jailed, probably because I didn't have to work as hard as most people. But then, yeah, it's just step one. The other things you need to achieve it's how you apply the knowledge and how you get to industry. That actually determines what you do in life. I've never been no one has like I got an E, I got a foot in. No one has ever asked for that professionally, as I'm working in industry, it's always what can you do, what problems can you? Solve.
Speaker 2:And if you figure out the education if you're getting, if you're trying, if you want your child to be like academically excellent, let them know their path is to get into academia and to contribute new. It's not an edge to be a professor in a lecture.
Speaker 2:It's not an edge for a better paying job because in this work environment we're in, it's not consistent. You have brilliant people like burning up the papers. They're like I can't get this over. Like, yeah, the industry doesn't care about your age, it cares about what problems you can solve. Yeah, so that's an knowledge I'll give people. If you can do good, do well. I don't mean check out from school, I'm telling you limited. Are you going to be an industry, an academic, full-time, contributing new knowledge, or are you trying to be a professional to actually solve problems in the industry?
Speaker 1:Yes, yes. So I have to ask you this because even me it fascinated me.
Speaker 1:I was okay, I'll tell my story one day and I keep telling my guests that every guest I host, they always offer to be the host and, by the way, to be honest, I have not gotten the right hosts to ask me the right questions. But I'm not saying you can't, it's just that you need to get in that flow. One thing that fascinated me in high school is the guy who used to be number one, and I inquired about him from my school and one of the things that was fascinating about him is that first, that is from one and from two, he used to be number last, ah, and then he stepped up Then second time from two. Oh, my goodness, the guy gets to number two, number three gets to number one and the rest is history.
Speaker 1:No like no. This guy used to get perfect scores. And another thing that I noticed about him he wasn't that guy who is a book warmer. He was in all the troubles that you can think about. He was actually in those things that you cannot imagine. So I don't know about you guys. Now that you're index 91, what was it like to be index one?
Speaker 2:So there are two things. The people who are like, I think, probably brilliant people do not phase me because I've been in sort of environments where everyone is brilliant, so so I've noticed two things. Yeah, they are brilliant. Yes, and then they worked at the exam. It was not about mastering. The content is, again, because you know, it changes from multiple answers to written open-ended answers. They used to like answer questions the way the examiner no, the examiner expected them to answer.
Speaker 2:So the best friend of mine is called Rafael Riguanzo I think he's at Google, rafael. So I looked at one of his physics papers. He was a great dozer out of 70. He got like a 60. I'm there. I was like I know the content, like all my answers, like for me, I would go on long winding stories, but then he was like exact point to deliver the, the, the Nini, so he was answering the questions. They learned how examiners. They went to the grade and learned how they expected questions and answers, because I think the only thing I did Were you taught how to answer these questions, how examiners expect?
Speaker 2:For me? No, I think I learned from four when you were revising. That's when you go like, when it's like sunk, but then before that, like you go through how they answer questions and like they are prepared for the exam, like answering how the examiner expected the question to be.
Speaker 1:So are you saying back at home they used to have these guys who prepared them.
Speaker 2:No, no, like it's going through, like it's preparing for the exam, rather than just reading the content it's going people in other classes asking for their papers. So they figured out how the examiners expected the questions to be answered. Like there's a beef I have with like English like English literature.
Speaker 2:I've read the material. I know I know like the answer, I know the content, I know the themes, but that if you do not provide three themes, that is that as expected in whatever teacher's guide they've offered, they won't give you the marks. But I'm like it's literature, it's like how you understand and you explain, because I'm like explaining theme xyz in my way of explaining explanation, and it makes perfect sense. Then who typos? But you're not getting the marks because the teacher expected this list from this teacher's guide, this list of themes and these explanations to them. So that's the thing. One thing was broken with 824 and instead our school like, so again, our grades weren't like normalized and whatnot. So it was that split, split difference of marks and it was like nah, like it doesn't make sense, yeah like.
Speaker 2:So there's, I have this. It's a lean startup thing where anything more than what you need to get initial feedback is this. So I was like anything more than what you need to get initial feedback is with. So I was like those guys. But then they spent their entire existence or the four years providing answers the way examiners expected them, but then again like if you, when that sample size is increased to the whole of Kenya, you know, I am in the top percentile because you know there's that difference.
Speaker 2:So it's a thing I figured out. I figured out how to go through school with the least effort on academics and then the most effort on other extracurricular stuff, because I knew there's a life outside the classroom.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So you got your A. Which university did you get invited to? Jquart Jquart.
Speaker 2:But then I chose Actual science and then I Actual Actual science, so At the back of the mind I was, so I had already Like learned To write Java. I really learned Like that. That year you have when people go to ICDL, gap year.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Where I went and I locked myself home and, like I told you, I wasn't spending the rest of my life with computers. So I learned how to like moving from VBA, because I know VBA is just a thing for school. Let me learn what actual people in the industry are. So I learned Java and learned Android. So I was already an Android developer before I joined actual science.
Speaker 2:I was telling myself it's the math, because it's the mathematics of risk, especially applications in insurance. I was telling myself, it gives me a grounding for the math behind it. Because I knew ultimately I wanted to do AI things. And again, I kept getting jaded with the education system. Because, for a fact, actual science shouldn't exist as a cause. Because around the world, people do mathematical courses, core math courses, pure math courses, and then take the exam, study for the actual exam and if they pass it, pass it. So someone with a mathematics degree, someone with a statistics degree, can actually study for the actual science exam and pass it. So those two things. So yeah, it shows how it's so commercialized, especially tertiary education. It's so commercialized, like especially tertiary education. It's so commercialized where faculties try constantly to keep trying to add programs that are hot and then the market keeps telling them like these people have given us.
Speaker 1:They are so many of them.
Speaker 2:They're underprepared for the world because they're putting putting what's hot on the placard of the course but then offering the same academic Because the same units we took were the same financial engineering guys, the same units we took. So there's a course known as financial engineering, financial engineering what does that? Do Like it's the same thing, Like it's the math.
Speaker 1:Do you mean the system or what no?
Speaker 2:it's learning about like financial instruments. It's the same we're doing. It starts with like a math statistics probability statistics and what's this thing called and calculus concepts and what's this thing called Calculus concepts, and then, aside from that, you're using calculus concepts and math concepts and discrete math concepts to figure out things around like something like present value, like if I'm buying a bond at 100K that pays me 10K every month, what's the present, what's the value today before I get earning 10K? Or what's the accumulated value after 10 years. So there's math around that and that's where that's most of the core applications financial projections, studying financial reports and the like. So we used to share a couple of units.
Speaker 2:There's even a programming one, like they have a relational database unit that I used to absolutely crash without studying and they had one for RSTATs, like the programming language RSTATs. But then again it's a combination of units without telling you how it applies, how the whole, how the sum of the parts make the whole. That's the thing that's broken. And in the working that's the thing that's broken. And in the working there's something in insurance called making reserve. Like if you're taking premiums for people, how do you budget for reserves in case claims get made so that people don't leave school without knowing how to do that? But then they have the underlying mathematics on how to do it.
Speaker 2:So that's the disconnect.
Speaker 1:But would you not say that even with any other course, they give you the foundation. Now, how you choose to implement that or practice that, it's just your effort, because even in computer science you're not taught how to code. Most of the languages Fundamentally all the languages use this theoretical approach to do XYZ. And then if you join a community or a hackathon or a bootcamp or you're building a system, then you stand out to see them in action.
Speaker 2:Now that's the problem. People go to guys are going to campus. They take it to their job market. People are using that like I'm going to learn the skills I it to the job market Like people are using that Like I'm going to that learn the skills I take to the job, but you're not, like you're not being taught how it actually applies in the real world.
Speaker 2:Like I remember, like there's a unit like a calculus 3 unit. After you learn about it, the application segment is on how it's used to calculate the surface area of some geometric shape. I'm like yo the actual real-life applications are not telling you.
Speaker 1:This is not the application you're looking for Until you're in the ocean and you're lost.
Speaker 2:Calculus is used in machine learning so that an AI model can understand content, remember content. Something called chain rule actually applies in machine learning. You never learn that after you do present value, after you do expected value in statistics, like those coin flipping examples you never learn, like how gamblers actually use it to be, how casinos use it to make sure they're profitable, because that's where it applies, and then people keep going to Asinos use it to make sure they're profitable, because that's where it applies.
Speaker 2:And then people keep going to campuses as an out of poverty, as an outage to get into the job market, but there it's not. There it's to create more academic. It's to create more people who will contribute more knowledge into what you know as knowledge. People think getting a PhD makes you a better fit for a job, but then People think getting a PhD makes you a better fit for a job.
Speaker 2:But no, getting a PhD is you saying I've decided material that is and then specialize on this small area to move advance the whatever we as human understand as knowledge, moving it a step forward. It's not to look better on your CV, it's not to look better on your CV and that, not to look better on your cv. And that's the disconnect and we need to fix that in how we sell education and how campuses and because they even mistreat people, like how you know, like before exams, like the lines of like, usually queues around finance, finance teams, like, like things that are messy in schools, and people don't care because they think they're they're giving, think they're giving you an outlet of poverty, while it's not an asset. They're there to create more knowledge.
Speaker 1:And it's a business after all.
Speaker 2:I had a cousin and my sister graduating the other day and I was asking just for fun, because I'm the only one who doesn't have a degree in the family. I asked, like, how much are they paying? Do they make you pay to rent the graduation gown? The graduation gown Because there's also that feeling of vanity that, oh yeah, like the photos, my family is there and it's also like it's generational. There's some families that never had like a. It's a point of vanity metrics where, oh, I have a college called college, so we need to grow a. Grow that because the job market has absolutely, absolutely changed and it needs us to change and evolve for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I'm gonna say you have said something very important here that, uh, you here, you are done here, you've got to take one, but you don't have a degree. What happened?
Speaker 2:I don't know. So funny story. Uh, before, even Before. Even there's a program by Zafarecom called Upwiz. So I entered my first Hackathor.
Speaker 1:Which year was that that you participated?
Speaker 2:2014.
Speaker 1:Ah, so you are with this. What is the name of this team?
Speaker 2:Guidrig. No, tichawa was after before us, was after before us.
Speaker 1:Oh, Tichai the guys who built Tichai. What's the something system? I can't remember. They're now. Kenobi the guy who runs Kenobi. But we're the guide rig crew so it was my Tichai versus yours was no no, so mine was called Altipedia.
Speaker 2:So again, mindset from school. We took past KCP papers and then put them into a trivia game app.
Speaker 2:So, the same way, I learned to get opportunities to do past content, put past content and past papers in a way that's interactive and fun. So it's called LGPDLA At our height. We got like 300 users At our height and then the funny thing then was people didn't understand the place, so like like data charges were so high then Android phones were just getting cheaper. People used to disable the Play Store on their phone because the cheapest data packet was like 20-bub for 100 MB on Airtel. That was the cheapest data packet. People didn't want to update apps on the Play Store and then I remember like guerrilla marketing through that app, like you'd have to get someone's phone and disable the Play Store and then remove the app form you know when you say that Gen Z will not understand.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you're Gen Z, but Gen Z will not understand you, because nowadays it's just what is the Wi-Fi password? Right Then it was about the bundles, and that ended moment between life and death. So should I go for a mess for like two, three days, or should I buy 20 MBs Something interesting, by the way, that you mentioned also, I think. When I was at the university, I participated in a startup weekend together with you know. Roger Sandati was a really good Android engineer. I think he's still an Android engineer Nice I participated in a startup weekend together with Rogers Andati.
Speaker 1:He was a really good Android engineer. I think he's still an Android engineer. Nice Nanda.
Speaker 1:Nanda yeah, banta, and we teamed and another lady was not a student actually and we built an application called Masomo Moya, nice. So it was around harmonizing education. Still, I feel that that idea could be really something, because we are looking at it like why do you have international schools and I don't know KCSE, I don't know what not international Bakukas? Why don't you put it together? And then when someone is learning, they can learn all these, but make a choice. So that was the concept. We never pursued it beyond Startup Weekend. That's the problem with programs but.
Speaker 1:I met some cool people and also we had some really good good weekend, Because I don't know if you've ever participated in Startup Weekend.
Speaker 2:No, I've not. It'll be Startup Week. I know so. It'll be Startup Week, like the ones of them. But no, so I think Apples was my first thing. And then I was like so, and then with Apples, there was like a million bob in funding at the end of it, like so incubation. And then and then versus it started at the same time. So I was like, yeah, I deferred and I had the option to defer at J-Corp, like J-Corp is, like you, deferred at which year, first year like before I even joined like I deferred.
Speaker 2:I deferred to do like yeah, rather than joining, you deferred yeah, I deferred I deferred for a year to do like the Safaricom thing. Yeah, like so looking at J-Corp and Africa to Lathbun, I got into the space.
Speaker 1:Come. I didn't meet you because I also I had a, I don't know. I think I participated as a judge or something. I can't remember how I participated, but I was Around Upwitz yeah. There's a guy who used. I think I should bring him here. His name was Sam Njoma. He won one of those Upwitz, sam Njoma, he was really a ninja what did he build? I can't remember it's been a while, but he used to build some great, great apps maybe two or three apps when they were running by Safaricom, yeah because it was a partnership between Safaricom and Ibis.
Speaker 1:I'll show him after this so that you see if you know him. But I believe that those are some of the opportunities that actually propel some of the solutions and I've seen a lot of guys actually come from those hackathons and build some proper, proper startups. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like my magazine reel from Mabiri I was the one who won you know magazine, my magazine reel from Mabiri. I was the one who won in the magazine reel. But then, aside from that, guiderig, one of the like the second runner's up and they're still running even now Like GuideRig, is still up. I've even used their service to ticket some of my beer things on there. So yeah, a couple of companies still exist. So the teacher guy now runs his own consultancy called Kinugi. It's a cloud something. Yeah, it's Alan Mukona.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Alan Mukona.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, people come from work and build actual companies from the side. So the funny thing is me and you was entering Like it was my first four-day meeting, like I was developing at home. It was my first chance. Like me, I was entering a computer.
Speaker 1:Out of the bedroom.
Speaker 2:Yeah, bedroom, like I was entering it as a techie, so let me see how I match up against other techies. But then you get in and you're learning all these business ideas. Now it stuck to me like being an entrepreneur is a path in being a techie.
Speaker 2:Like you can build a company of your own yeah just from building software and since then I haven't looked back. Like some of the lessons I learned to then apply. They keep seeing them in other programs. I'm a main, but then I'm like I've learned them in a very, at a very early age, like I was 19. Then, like I made my.
Speaker 2:So there's something called a business model canvas that clearly articulates what you're trying to build. I built my first financial projection. Then I learned how to like properly style my pitches. From then, even like today, like I go like over pitching sessions, do training pitching sessions, and then I deliver my first business like, okay, just change these two things and you're good to go. Well, you know, like when you get into a program and they're like they don't embarrass themselves before guys, they're finding them, they wanted to make sure you get clean. So I do that one of those like demo pitches, like exercise pitches, and they're like, okay, amkasa, you're good, let's go to the. Change one or two things, we are set for the next one. So, yeah, like I got more my core skills from that program.
Speaker 1:So JQuart is still waiting for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's, funny I joined JQuart.
Speaker 2:You joined after one year, after I joined JQuart, but then again I've spent a year outside my expectations in avian, in my classroom. Did you win, by the way, on the uptick? No, I never won, I never won. It was $10,000 and then about like $3,000, separated by categories, for other guys. So we never. We never actually got. We got funding from that group, but then I learned the program, I got into the ecosystem. Then, even after I was like applying for other things, I got to I WhatsApp groups for the first time and I became a part of the of the ecosystem, ecosystem.
Speaker 2:And then after that, after things don't happen, I'm like struggle not getting past 300 users. I'm not getting other opportunities like fun things around edtech are not happening. I go back to to Jcord, but then two things struck me like my mindset was different than anyone else in my class, probably because everyone else was fresh from high school. And I've like seen the world. I got actually hung out with the late Bob Collymore like right from Upways. Like got hung out with him like the showcase. After, like the Upways thing, got hung around. Upways start for wages. Everyone else is being forced to follow a dress code because they're going to the opposite. I've seen this another level to life. Rather than just get to school, get people. I've had access to spaces where I never have access. I think Safaricom invited us to. They usually run a program. They usually help run an innovation program for high schoolers. I forgot what it is. They invited us to help judge and what. So I've seen Is it with the M-Pesa.
Speaker 1:No, not with M-Pesa Academy.
Speaker 2:It was just like the Innovation Hour of Safaricom.
Speaker 1:But how is that doing? Now that you've mentioned it, I've just thought it.
Speaker 2:So, okay, I mentored in something called Innovate Kenya, so it's a program for high schoolers, and they came up build a product within a week. So the problem with South is, rather than specializing in a specific tech stack, these kids are learning. If you're like in high school, you're learning like Python, you're learning Python, you're learning like you're not. Again, you're not told like. This applies to this.
Speaker 3:This and this applies you, this applies to this, this and this applies to that.
Speaker 2:They're getting introduced and they're getting introduced to everything. They're doing everything, from IoT to Python apps.
Speaker 1:Let me tell you something about that, and I think these are mistakes people are making. So for us at Africa Stalking we do monthly archivings every last Thursday of the month and people build solutions. So if you come there and see people actually build a solution that actually can be an MVP within 12 hours, you assume it's easy to do it. You forget. Maybe some of these guys are graduates. Some of these guys are maybe in their fourth year. Some of these guys have participated in like 10, 15 hackathons.
Speaker 1:And then you assume, if you go and teach some bunch of high school kids all these technologies, which people take degrees of five to six years to learn, they just happen to become developers. Okay, I'm not refuting that you can teach yourself how to be a developer, but being a developer is not easy. All right, now leave that alone. Being a computer scientist is even harder. Being an engineer is also harder. So let's, let's, let's people not assume that because you can get some tutorials on youtube or some pdf books about computer science, now you become a developer. No, no, no. It takes a lot of dedication, a lot of extra working hours, practice, a lot of failures. I don't know if there was a developer who built their system once, even some CTOs. They build and make you know, get bugs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, bugs that are given. No matter how skillful you are with the tech stack, you will even with the solution, if you've made it a hundred times before you will always face bugs, absolutely.
Speaker 1:So let's get out of the way, because I've seen that notion and also I've seen a lot of institutions come up, you know, teaching all these Ula Baloo and then they end up churning out some incompetent guys over and over and over. And I know parents spend a lot of money to pay for those kids. So, please, I'm not discouraging people from pursuing these, I'm just saying just be realistic.
Speaker 2:And let it be specialized, Like if you have a program teaching, web, android, iot at the same, no like focus on one? Oh yes.
Speaker 1:And go deep.
Speaker 2:Yeah, go deep. Like, focus on one thing so that they're skilled. I think I'd love if Mpesa, the teams, come and you're asking, like they don't want to do work during the week. They're supposed to build an MVP. They tell them they've already built a product. They ask to see if they're like what's going on, like it's your project, like if you even at least have the files on your email. Yeah, like, give them one day, give them one day taking this idea building it on MVP. So, even if them even if it's high school have the like the science congress project, like, have them build a project and then teach them the tech for whatever solutions they want to build. Because, yeah, learning me, I only have learned Android, AI, python when I was starting in 2014. I started with Android first and mastered it first. So if those programs people learning starting earlier, they should focus on one thing If you find a program trying to teach everyone something, someone, everything, it's a red flag. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So you get to JQuad first year, you start introduction to everything. How do you feel about that experience?
Speaker 2:The point of disconnect was like everyone else was doing that, get good grades, get a job. I was like I'm here for the AI, for math and because already in tech I'm already, I'm just looking for opportunities in tech already. While everyone else is trying to focusing on the classwork, me I'm looking for events outside, like even inside GQuad. I'm getting invited to speak at the Google IELTS standard because I'm active in the tech scene. I'm always looking for opportunities outside the classroom with people in industry and interact, and I knew I wasn't going in the long run I wasn't going to end up in the insurance piece, because there's that thing about academic professional papers for actuaries and not.
Speaker 2:So the thing, like there's a funny thing that happened. Like there are people in my class who are struggling for the first of benches in a classroom. Like that, never, that didn't happen. And then I was like again standing up things. Like like the entire classroom is empty, no one wants to contribute, no one wants to sound stupid, like providing a bad answer, like where is the guy? Like offering an answer and answering.
Speaker 2:And people thought my class was smarter than them and they kept asking for my assignments, like after, like whatever assignment was due, like they kept asking for my in the group chat. But then me I was done with assignments, like before everyone else, so I can go back to building and run right now, like whenever I got, like I was done. And it was people in my class thought I was smarter than them, but I was not smart me. It was like I knew what I wanted I was doing. I was doing my classwork early and fast, you know, so I can go and find opportunities outside the classroom where everyone else was focusing on class. So there's that difference. Whenever an event is happening at IHOP, they're like how are you going all the way from Jujza to Gongro for an event? Because they want to be part of the ecosystem.
Speaker 2:They want to be active on things to happen. And then after those, you know they have long breaks after the summer break. So yeah, the summer on things to happen, and then after those you know they have like long breaks after like a fall season, so yeah, so the summer break. I've been playing around with chatbots for a while. There's a program by Nailab and UNFP Kenya asking for new readers to build on sexual health, and we apply.
Speaker 1:This is year 20? 16. 16, okay. That's when we met, I think that's when I was hanging around.
Speaker 2:I have two things. Whenever I leave the house, I never want to go back. So whenever I'm out for something, it's usually. I usually left for the demo day for the thing I was mentoring at, and when it ends on Saturday, I'm like let's go to IHOP, let's see what's happening around that IHOP.
Speaker 3:And then I find there's an Atlassian user group event and I'm like yeah, use BitMarket, Let me join in.
Speaker 2:So I was like today probably I'm even less active than I was then Because you wanted, like I knew, the hack to getting things happening is letting people in an industry know you exist and know your skill set. So, even before. Even before, like, I knew even Sam Gishu. So Gishu was running a program. I even knew him before they came to J-Code for the roadshow. I knew the project was running and we got funding, and I think that Tell us about Sofibot please.
Speaker 1:I know you've told this story several times, but I, of course.
Speaker 2:Sofibot is AI, artificial intelligence, to answer your questions on sexual and reproductive health. Yes, I just said sexual and reproductive health, Because this side of the world it's awkward and hard for people to talk about sexual health.
Speaker 2:So, when the call for action was, there's a lady called Sophie whose life gets messed up because she didn't know enough about sexual health. We're calling all innovators to build solutions to help solve for sexual health. Even if it's information on connecting youths to services and here I'm playing around with bots and I'm like bots can be used to provide information securely. The information is as per the user wants, Like come ask a question, get answers and you can make it anonymous, make it safe, and that's how Sophie bought us Even the name. Sophie was named after a program.
Speaker 1:Sophie is a lady's name.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so one of the marketing material had a character called Sophie. One of the hours like asking us to apply for the program was called. So I applied. I even like I know guys in the industry. I even like I know guys in the industry. I even know who's going to vet your application. I know a couple of guys. So one of my aside from Sangujuru, josephine Mwangi from Nailab, I knew her. I used to hang around. You just have like a Friday like hangouts, like drinks and whatnot, pizza and stuff, pizza, yeah, pizza and soda. So I used to like hang out around there. So I knew the space really really, really well. So when I was applying I wasn't like a stranger applying you had the connections.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and even new. Even before I apply I have to have like a fast, fast prototype of a product built and yeah and applied. We got funding and I think after I got funding, school resumes I went to a total of three classes then because it was commuting once you get into a program, like usually like training sessions afterwards. So each time I had a choice between class or a training session, I always went to the training session and then after the first three months, I think the thing that broke the camel's back was there was an event happening at Safari Park so the Kenya Health Federation was running an event and they showed up to an exam in a suit. I think yeah, and then after I did the exam I was like it was a cut. I was like, yeah, but I can't keep doing this. Since then I dropped. I never, I've, never, I've never, I've never, I've never looked back.
Speaker 1:So you never went back to. Never, never went back you never defied, you just walked out. Yeah, dropped out.
Speaker 2:That's the true meaning of dropping out. And then again, the systems are so bad. Again, jq, your systems are so bad. Every time I had exams I had to go and clear out to the DCFS Because I defied a year earlier. I ended up getting the records and I'm back in school. I even called before I went back to school after the deferment, like which process should I take to join back after deferment? They're like oh, just come up and register with everyone. But then, once you do register with everyone, there are always problems in the system.
Speaker 1:So yeah, like Because they're taking the exam, have you paid the school fees?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's always a mess. And then again, I think it's one of those privileges you do well, you think the world opens up for you, but then it's a whole new session. So, people, if you see someone who hasn't graduated, it's not even academic performance. The bureaucracies in such institutions are so bad because, first they, the bureaucracies in such institutions, are so bad because, first, they have to cater to a lot of people and second, I think the guys running the program are not motivated enough to smoothen the experience for everyone.
Speaker 1:So campuses are Do you think in future you'll open your own academy or campus? With a better experience With a better experience.
Speaker 2:I'll consider. I think there are too many people doing that also, so I have, like there's one program I tried to help like running, offering, like tech and the likes, I'll consider, like I'll contribute. If there are any tech focused ones where they need like a mentor in person, I'm open, willing to come talk and offer guidance. We'll see, we'll see, we'll see. Because, yeah, education is a whole, because I've seen how hard it is to market and sell and most people are selling direct jobs after graduation, which isn't always a reality. So you have to build out a pipeline for how you actually plan to deliver what you offer.
Speaker 2:But then again, so the best program I've learned it's look at Innovate Kenya, look at GIM. There's a program called Global Minimum and then a program called Innovate Kenya. That's the best program I've seen in the country. And this is done by who? So the company is called Global Minimum, it's an NGO, it's Global Minimum and the program is called Innovate Kenya, where kids in high school propose ideas. They have a $500 budget for a prototype and within a week you sit down with them and train them. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So even until now, like previous alumni, previous mentees from that program, keep reaching out to me and asking for help and asking for tech help and for some, you see like the questions are getting more technical, so they're becoming better techies and they're craft and they're like, so that's one of the best programs I like around here, nice, nice.
Speaker 1:So if I want to use a selfie boat, where is that persona? Because of course, it's sexual education but, at what point do I say, okay, maybe I need to talk to Sophie, but at what age gap are you addressing?
Speaker 2:you know those things we've been asked that question. We even ask do you offer age appropriate questions, like if a user is 15? So no, the only safety to Sophie, but she's limited to your curiosity. So if you want to ask about condoms, ask. If you want to ask about X topic, ask. Our job is to understand your question and answer them. So far, our target is 13 to 20, 13 to 25. But then we're getting questions from older demographics. So we're getting questions around menopause. We're getting questions on libido after getting a pregnancy. So our age group is also. We have an outlier age group, aside from guys who want to, who are serious.
Speaker 2:People who there are bigger problems around sexual health aside from teenage concerns around sexual health and preventing teenage pregnancies and the like, and we need to address those. There are a lot of people who have questions around fertility. There are a lot of people who have questions around the gender, like if they're trying to get a child, how do they determine what actually determines the gender of the child? So those questions that keep coming up, but so far it's around 13 to 25 is the age you're targeting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's very important. Something else, maybe this I'm asking from out of my curiosity With Sophie Boots did it evolve now, after seven years?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes. So you should go to that. So in 2016, we were pretty terrible at answering questions because the technology was rule-based, where you had to predefine a question and expect an answer. You might can come and say hi with H-I, but someone else can come and say hi with typed as H-A-E, so if you're not put that onto the system, you shouldn't be able to understand and provide an answer. We used to have a default response, for that is it was. Let me think about it. Whenever something wasn't defining our rules, that was a problem and it kept bothering our users. It even stopped growth for a while. We got about 3,000 users, about 6,000 questions and that's all, and we were at a turning point. Do we at a crossroads? Do we simplify our solution where it's press one for STIs, press two for Nini for information on sexual health, or do we figure out how to answer questions? The problem is called natural language, bro.
Speaker 2:And I was like the bigger opportunity to learn and grow and apply and be profitable and be valuable is by solving NLP. So from then on I got into learning what was state of the art then in solving NLPs and I've grown with the ecosystem. It hit me like it was still an unsolved problem and we evolved the technology from like rule-based to something called LSTM. That's what Cool Transit was using then and to now we have a language model. We have transformers, what Akina CharGPT are doing. We deployed this version of SophieBot that uses a transformer, the same technology behind CharGPT, so CharGPT, and the CharGPT means global pre-trained transformer. So transformer is a type of a neural network that performs really well with sequential data, like conversations, like text, like my name is Iving oh hi, nice to meet you, iving. My name is Ophibon. So those type of data, this model performed really well and we deployed our version last June June before charge GPT dropped in November because they had released the paper GPT. Was it last year? Last year, okay, yeah, last year.
Speaker 2:So this is most last year. So we figured out the solution last time. We figured it out like two years before, but then it wasn't trained on our data set. So we had like 30,000 plus conversations on that old, underperforming model. But we had about 3,000 more questions where we used to train new technology, like does this technology work for us? No, let's try the next one. So we had to move from 3,000 cleaned questions to 30,000 so we can train the new technology and deploy it. So that took us until June last year. That's when the new technology was deployed and once that happened we were lucky enough. The hype around bots starts again. Charging PT is released and people are interested in what bots can do, and that's why we had a new breath of air of life.
Speaker 1:And started doing things again, and it's good that you have clarified that, because there was a time you guys went silent and then, of course, ah, we went silent, and then, of course, chargy PT became global this January.
Speaker 2:And these guys have been releasing weekly updates.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you know this, but they have made actually even those guys who dismissed bots and looked down upon bots actually rethink. Every other company now is infusing the chat GPT enterprise version into their modules and tools to make sense or to complement what people can do. So your usage has increased immensely. Now that people understand now the technology, you have to live with yes.
Speaker 2:So even the hype, like when you started in 2016,. Those are bot hype because Facebook had just introduced bots on Messenger, that bot hype died and then ChanchiPT like restarted that bot again. So we were there like right there. Like luck is opportunity when opportunity meets preparedness. So we were just right with that for another hype cycle and we've been riding that since then. So people are interested in us and people are excited about it, funny enough. So we talked to I talked to Graham in 2016 when we were starting on like how do you deploy Sophie Bot on SMS? But then the bugger meant you were like you're not good at answering questions. Yeah, so this will wait. And then after June happened the next time, we got funding this year. So after June last year, we got a new round of funding June this year. And then there's a thing like there's a point where when you announce here you're getting funding, yes, but then there's a delay between when actual funds are going to your account.
Speaker 2:So around August, when actual funds hit our accounts, we went live on SMS the next, exactly the next week. So we've been on on SMS the next, exactly the next week. So we've been live on SMS and people on Instagram this is 2G technology, yeah so people on Instagram are more excited on Sophie Boton SMS than Sophie Boton WhatsApp yeah like on June last year, we were only on WhatsApp.
Speaker 1:Why is that?
Speaker 2:reason? Probably it's it's way more. It's way more cheaper and it's more novel. Like it's, it's an AI application on SMS. It's the first time it's happened, so a lot of people are excited about that. So we tell people. We run back-to-back ads One asking people to go use Sofibot on WhatsApp, the other one asking people to go use Sofibot on SMS and more hits are coming on through on SMS.
Speaker 2:I think it's because we provide it for free to all three and whatnot, because it's provided for free and whatnot. So that's our edge that we can deploy our AI model anywhere. So once we got funding, we expanded aside from our app and Telegram. We now support app, telegram and Facebook Messenger. We now support WhatsApp and SMS, and that's what our last round of funding is going towards.
Speaker 1:Have you checked out USSD?
Speaker 2:That goes on cost. So, on using building on top of Africa's talking, you can make that SMS number toll free. Yeah, so people can text high to 236 23629 right now text high and you can get an answer from Sophie. So it's purely free. If you're on a Zafaricom line to talk, so there's a cost added cost to it for this in order to make that as accessible as possible, because on all the platforms there's a data cost. So that's all rule-based version of Sophie.
Speaker 2:But when you downloaded the app, the knowledge base came with the rules, came on the app and it kept loading and whatnot. So right now people have you have to be online to use Feebot on the app and all these other platforms that you're on. So it's free. And to use on SMS, you can even use it. You don't even have like an SMS plan on. So it's more accessible for guys. The next step for us and what our funding is handling right now, is we want to support more local languages. Because she answers questions well. The problem is it's in English and she works live on SMS. Now can we support local languages, can you?
Speaker 1:ask Swahili is widely spoken in Africa.
Speaker 2:So we're working with the CBO in Nyanza to support Swahili, luya and Luwo. So by January next year we'll support those three languages.
Speaker 1:Very nice, that sounds like a good progress. So you're saying we. Who is we?
Speaker 2:Oh sorry, so I used to have a large team but then I bought them out of the company because there's that change in vision. Like do we? There's that differences in vision? Where do we still try and figure out how to answer questions, or do we go for a low-hanging fruit where it's a menu-based option? I was like, no, there's more opportunity for growth if we figure out the technology. And I doubled down on that. So at that point I bought out an agent from the company. So it's me at this at this moment, the most part. So we're funded by a group by Vilgro. Vilgro are an accelerator specifically focused on health companies. So right now it's me, I bounce ideas to the team at Vilgro and then right now the addition to the team is the.
Speaker 2:So the working with the Colt and Kenya so those are the three guys we're working with and, aside from that, unfp has always been A constant partner For us. So, united Nation Population Fund they are the ones who funded us back in 2016. Oh nice, so, yeah so even our answers From On, sophie, but are not from our minds. I don't like All the answers from. They are from. They have a peer mentor curriculum when they used to teach we used to teach about sexual health, so those are the complement, what they teach yeah, we do so.
Speaker 2:Right now it's me and the partners with Velgro, tempea and the United Nations Population Fund nice yeah, so how many, how many user base do you have right now?
Speaker 2:yeah, so we have 3,000 new users for the last, the last five months. So 3,000 users the last five months they five months They've asked about 5,000 questions. About 1,500 of them are on SMS, so about a couple of hundreds of users purely on SMS asking us questions. They're excited about those two platforms, sms and WhatsApp. So it's interesting we keep revving that. We have, I think, an engine of growth. So literally we were quiet and then I guess we started like actively making noise again yeah our engine of growth is restarting nice, nice.
Speaker 1:So do you just address, you know, is it the question, are they gender based or just general questions?
Speaker 2:it's general, yeah it's across the genders funny enough. It's like we general questions across the gender. It's across the genders Funny enough. We have more men asking us questions About female questions, Both, Both, so you can't know. It's a man exactly asking, Exactly asking, but then from the context of the question you can get. So I don't know if I should say this. A lot of men are worried about the dimensions of their equipment and so people tell them don't worry, the other equipment expand and control. So we have loads of those questions. In context. We have questions about how women respond to sexual stimuli, Like how do I know? So yeah, they're ready or not?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so a lot of answers on that. We have a couple of questions on consent and the like.
Speaker 1:That's complicated, man. I've had those discussions different. Yeah, because even right now, with the equality discussions and where women are treated equally, it becomes confusing Like how do I know you're consenting to this? Because also, as we grow up and how people have been used to, even in our culture, is that sometimes no might mean yes, yes might mean no, but of course nowadays it's like no means no, yes means yes.
Speaker 2:You know, I thought this was a myth. Like there are people who wanted to be like, who want that insistence, like all that it means. I'm like no, like you be clear and honest with your party. Like do not play games when it comes to consent, because there are some, it's an exception to the rule, but then if your partner wants you to like, they'll let you know and that culture needs to change. There are some. Yeah, me thought it was amazing. Like now you're making that up to like force consent on human.
Speaker 1:But yeah, the people who are shaking, people who are shaking.
Speaker 2:If you mean it more, like, no, like, it's a new day. If you're interested, like, be open Because, yeah, mixed signals.
Speaker 1:That's a hard discussion.
Speaker 2:But then we have a couple of questions.
Speaker 1:You know, in Nairobi it's easier, but if you go outside Nairobi it becomes more complicated because of exposure, the culture. You know how people are brought up and this begs me to ask you have you faced cultural resistance in this?
Speaker 2:because also sexual discussions are not so open in African culture so the only the resistance we have is a couple of answers, and we make them so. We want to Support more than just Heterosexual relations and we have answers that cater past Heterosexual relations. So the only point of fiction is Is that, like somebody ask, ask what coitus is? We have all the different ways people have coitus, not just phallus or vulva. I'm not doing too because I'm trying to obscure. I'm trying to obscure, I don't try to be how open you are.
Speaker 1:So not all coitus, please pause, because what you've just said actually explains the cultural upbringing, because sexual conversation is not always openly, because it's considered either vulgar or taboo or, you know, because you don't want to sound out of you know context because, of age and who is listening and whatnot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and also there is what people believe in, and sometimes changing that is really, really hard. It's the hardest thing actually in the world to do. Forget about math, changing what people believe in amukasa, that's true. Even God is trying, or maybe you know. Remember the Babylon story. The War of Babylon, when people tried to build something.
Speaker 2:A tower to go to the heavens and they're like yeah we're putting you in different language.
Speaker 1:God had to do something about it, because now people believed actually they could go there, but ideally. That's how hard it is. But of course I'm sure I understand what you're saying, that people are thinking in a certain way and now it doesn't sound actually similar to what people believe, To what they're expecting yeah, because we have comprehensive answers to cater to more people who are not just heterosexual.
Speaker 2:So we cater to more than that. Even ask us what coitus is and we answer all the different ways. Many different types of couples actually have coitus and some people have offense, even like on Twitter. Take offense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, even post a screenshot with the answers to. And I'm like, yeah, that's a comprehensive answer. That's what we aim for to make everyone feel comfortable and provide answers to everyone, no matter how you want to express your sexuality. So that's the only point of conflict. And when someone comes and asks us a question innocently or tries and tests, like on a wage, and then they're like, oh, you people are supporting queer people, like, yeah, that's why, because they exist and we have to provide answers for them, they also have our sexual health needs are, regardless of what your cultural beliefs are or whether or not you believe they should have access to sexual health information. So, yeah, that's the point of conflict we have with people.
Speaker 1:So Sofibot is meant to serve the whole world, or just Africa?
Speaker 2:It's Africa, yeah, it's Africa and Kenya in general. And then it's us putting that content on Zohib. But it's to acknowledge they exist and they have sexual health needs and they need support for sexual and they're at more risk than like, not even like than heterosexual. They're even at more risk of a lack from a lack of sexual health information. It's recognizing they exist and they need information. But aside from that, we've been asked questions in 150 or 100 and up. We've been asked questions from all over the world.
Speaker 1:So Bona, ivan, you have talked about everything and anything and you have gotten to where you build a selfie board. Is sexual. Uh, you know a solution? Yeah, right, uh, you, you are you actively? You know someone? Have you ever gotten into a relationship? Because that's, that's part and parcel of life. Right, yeah, it, it is yes, I saw you, and the reason why I'm asking this is because I saw you tweet some nice tweet, but I was like, okay, I'll ask when I get a chance. Oh yeah, swelling.
Speaker 2:Oh. So context is, what happened in November is a lot of tech heroes were like, oh no, it was a commercial on Twitter like, oh, watch it. So I told people it's better to be in love. Better to. It's better to be in love and it's better to be in love and have losses than than to have stayed at home watching embarrassing things. Yeah, so, yeah, nothing relieving about this moment. So again, it's what probably comes with my territory, so like, so he both comes fast. So, yeah, I have been in flings. Yes, I am active and, in a way, safely active. I'm safely active. I've been in flings. Yes, I am active and safely active. I'm safely active. I've been in flings, yes, but then I think it comes with the territory. Like one day I'm all over the place moving around. The next three weeks I'm locking myself home to get something done. So I can't always be there to form a relationship. But I'm also a difficult person to deal with. You come late to a date and I'm like no, that doesn't sit right with me, so that's a thing.
Speaker 2:So I'm not dating at the moment, but, yeah, I've had a couple of flings. Safely, I've had a couple of flings. It's important to be safe out there. Pulling out does not work as we answer, as Sophie Bolt says, so it's very important to be safe out there for many reasons.
Speaker 1:So of course, that's fine. What is your take on age and sexual activities?
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, Okay. So whether we like it or not, like teenagers, we'll experiment. So what you have to do is give them the right information to make sure they are safe then, so that their entire lives isn't messed up because they wanted to express themselves sexually. So that's point one. Point two is we need to modify child molestation laws. So if it's two people under 18 who consensually have sex, the law treats that as molestation. It's child abuse, it's molestation. And who pays?
Speaker 1:child abuse, it's molestation.
Speaker 2:And who pays the price? It goes to the gentleman, the teen boy, which is unfair, which doesn't make sense.
Speaker 2:So we need to add, like an addendum, so Romeo and Juliet laws where it recognizes that it's two people providing consent who are under the age. And then also we need to provide them services, provide them information so that they can delay the it's called the sexual debut as much as possible. But if they choose to experiment, actually they do it, they do it safely. So all this opposition to charges where they don't provide condoms to kids, they don't teach children what condoms are or how to use them, that is misguided, because we think this is a problem that comes with our generation. But then the generation before us, they had us while they were still that gap from primary school to high school, that's when most of us were born, yeah, and our parents are so they're the firstborns.
Speaker 2:Firstborns. Yeah, our parents are obsessed about not recreating that without giving us the right tools and information. I think I was given the talk around sexual health when after high school and I was like yo, this is a bit too late. Like you already know how come I wasn't active with that, but then, yeah, like this is a bit too late. I had an aunt like I'm 28 now. I had an aunt call me the other day. It was one of those. You know it's graduation season, so it was one of those. You know it's graduation seasons so. And then, whenever it happens, they usually call you to ask you what are you doing? What are you doing?
Speaker 1:is it like rubbing it on your?
Speaker 2:face. No, no, they ask you what are you doing? What are you doing? I told them I'm in a good place now. Even now it's even better. We're getting funded, things are happening, and then so, and then there's this person coming. Like you know, when you get money, you know they're also girls. I'm like you know, I'm 28. Like, I know how to navigate. Like I know, pesa niya kombuni siya kupeleka girlfriend, siya kupeleka girlfriend.
Speaker 1:Not marriage. We call it what Dawari, dawari, it's all dawari.
Speaker 2:Like yoni pesa, yoni pesa, Yoni, conversation, like it's a bit too too late for, too late for that. So I know too far and no one cares about my company more than, yeah, more than me. So we have those. I think most parents are doing that late. Uh, and it should. People shouldn't say like a school shouldn't do that, like it's a theme for because parents are not handling that conversation, you, you too, for you, even you too, it's awkward and hard for you to have these conversations.
Speaker 1:Do you think it's now that you're in sexual education? Do you think it's right to teach people queer education in school?
Speaker 2:So, whether we like it or not, queer people will exist. We need to make sure they are safe. So the point one is to not vilify or cast safe. So the point one is to not vilify or stigmatize them. So that's the thing. That's like going to an all-abay school. The biggest, the most embarrassing thing that could ever happen to you is if it was rumored you're into. So point one is stigma. Point two is if things are stigmatised, people will wait when they're in a position of power to get into queer religious. So there are a lot of like cases and it still happens now, like prefects hooking and it's three, three, three whole weeks.
Speaker 2:You're in a. You're in a boys school of which, like some, some people are queer. So if you need to provide, say, spaces where people can openly and honestly express themselves sexually so that it limits abuse, people know this is actually abuse, actually abuse, and you provide like outlets for people to express that, you can't abuse second ways where people don't wait where they're in positions of power to express themselves sexually, like as in queer people, or to other people who are in bigger, bigger positions of power to exploit younger, younger, younger people because they're not openly enough to express themselves sexually, but then that give that. I'm not conflating being queer with being a predator, because those are two different things, because it comes from the recognition that queer people exist and they need service. The last point is being queer it comes with its own risk sexual health risk. Queer people need to be aware of the risk and how to protect themselves while they're doing queer relations. If they get infected, how do they get help? How do they get services so that the disease doesn't keep spreading, infection doesn't keep spreading?
Speaker 2:Third thing is to dispel the notion that there are diseases for queer people and there are diseases for everyone. No diseases are they spread. As long as they can spread through sexual intercourse, they can spread across the ecosystem. So that's one of the some of the few things we need to dispel and it will solve a lot of things down the line, because every few weeks in boy school there's always a scandal or there's somebody in a position of power is and it's not conflating like.
Speaker 2:Being queer doesn't make you, but some people, because they wait when they're in a position of power to express and letting them know early on, like you, being as you are, it's perfectly fine, it's perfectly fine. We do not let any like cause it's a rule in high school. Like you're not getting laid in high school, no one is getting laid, so don't do anything at all at this level. So that's the dynamics we need to fix and in the extreme of cases, you know it's down to that. It's down to lynching, like lynching queer people. It's not a solution to who they are, because it's if you like. Do you like coffee or tea? If you like coffee, no matter how much someone, if you like coffee, you like coffee.
Speaker 1:A mokasa is not as simple as you're putting it, because here, here we are talking about and we have had this conversation with a couple of guys before there are two things I told you. You cannot really.
Speaker 3:It's really hard as much as you want this to change it's hard.
Speaker 1:One is belief, another one is religion, another one is who someone is. That one is what you're talking about, and you're ignoring these two, which are very ingrained since you're born, how you're taught, the environment you're in. But it's a good way you're looking at it that education actually could mean a lot of things for someone and could actually avoid all these things.
Speaker 1:Maybe, the debate is at what stage? Because, also, even you can be taught this too early and it confuses you altogether Because, like in US I hear now, toddlers or people in class one or grade one are taught such things, so you're confusing that child. Also, there have been claims people are being infused with hormones without their consent. All these are discussions I've seen, actually online and also on big stage, so they're not just rumours, it's something that is actually happening. In Netherlands, I've seen such cases and I think now in Africa. Maybe we can approach this in a more better way with these lessons right and given in that space, maybe something that we need to have.
Speaker 2:So if you look at queer people, they have tons, endless examples of how queer people have existed in culture. I think the problem is the white man made us unlearn a lot of things that are very, very African and we now conflate what is what is religion to what is african, because that religion isn't african at its core. So we need to investigate our roots. And thirdly, is so some people are, especially in some spaces, they're trying to manufacture like outrage, because in the expression like, like, like, like, I think you're talking about trans children. Across the US, people want trans children to express themselves, but then no parent under their mind will let a child undergo specific procedures before they are a specific age. So they tried it with queer people. Queer people covers trans people. So okay, yeah, I think queer people covers trans people. So okay, yeah, they tried to like like people who, uh, uh, uh, I like using queers like a general term. They tried like the laws of the world on one front.
Speaker 2:So they're targeting like trans people and then they're manufacturing this entire outrage around like people who want people who are trans are again like are, are, are, are, again like are, are are pedophiles, like. It's the same conflation they're trying to. They're used on. So there's, there's manufactured outrage, but then there's also concerns for parents, like your parents want their children to express themselves as they are, but then they won't let them do the life altering procedures until they're at a specific are at a specific age, and that's what. Like, there's a consensus on that. Even parents of trans they want, like, they let them wear dresses and whatnot, but then, like, when it comes to like, blocking, blocking, blocking, nini, it's and it's. It's a thing. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's quite interesting. It's quite interesting, and I don't think we can exhaust it in this discussion.
Speaker 2:The point is I wanted to make is is, like we need to have like open conversation, open and honest conversations, not not jaded, like I shouldn't come to the table with preconceived notions on on. So we should even have like someone who's who's trans on the table to have a conversation with them and and their experience and how and how they feel and when they knew that you're by they. Like I do not want to express this because, yeah, so we need to have, rather than coming to tables with preconceived ideas of what's the experience of trans people, and that will move it forward. Yeah, that will move forward, because it's perfectly comfortable for a comedian to dress, to make a joke, but then for performances. It's now becoming so. Yeah, it wasn't an issue until the last few years. People are this, their bigger horses are bigger than us trying to drive the conversation and we'll see it soon enough.
Speaker 1:I do think the reason that it has become a big issue until few years is because also the queer community, as you call it, feels like they're not recognized, or they should be recognized more than everyone else. They should have better experiences than everyone else. What do you think that actually made it pop up?
Speaker 2:so in the conversations that's been happening, it's like so people have been sharing statistics that more people have been identifying statistics that more people have been identifying as queer more recently, but that's a consequence of stigma. If you reduce stigma, more people will openly express that. It's like left-handedness Before that people were being If you start using your left hand, people can't stop using your left the actual social sticks to stop you from expressing who you are. And the more social stigmas the actual social uh sticks and you need to to stop you from expressing who you are. And the more like social stigmas, the more social norms and attitudes change, the more people express themselves.
Speaker 2:So what's happening? It's? It's like people are coming on this tradition, like people exist and we and exist in our lives and they shouldn't hide themselves for who they are because they've been hiding for years and years and running underground communities. So that's what's changing and people chief are that. But then you know again, I'm still braving this. So you notice the people some people talking about like queer people expressing themselves. Don't want to see someone who look like you and me in an advertisement or like this one who is getting upset about a sweater company that has a black woman and a white woman, so the other underlying cultural norms that they don't.
Speaker 2:For me.
Speaker 1:I brought this up, which is very important when you think about it, and we can talk about different things actually when it comes to this, and one of them would be queer right. But there are so many other.
Speaker 2:There's anti-semitic, there's black, versus white yeah there is a privilege versus less privileged there's somebody who put a board like an entire board for a, for a restaurant chain. It's all women. I'm like. What's the problem like?
Speaker 1:yeah, so the the problem that most people have, and I think even at least for africans, uh, at least for africans, one of the things that actually people have, and I think even at least for Africans, at least for Africans, one of the things that actually people have always had a problem with me included is that we are making one issue to be so big and then we ignore everything else right.
Speaker 1:Like right now people are saying oh you know, people should not be Jewish versus everyone else. It should be like everyone should have their rights. Because everyone is human right.
Speaker 2:Before you categorize you know this Jewish, this Arab, this black, this white?
Speaker 1:The foundation is human right. I totally get that. And do we now ignore all the problems and now focus on these? One problem and assume that other problems never existed. Yeah, totally get that. And I'll give you an example with Africans. Right, Africans are no problem with you, know your sexuality, as long as your sexuality does not interfere with mine, which is Obund right. We believe you. Amukasa is Amukasa because I am Mike right. And Amukasa doesn't have to disappear or be discriminated or be put aside for me to exist.
Speaker 1:But now it's the same thing that you're talking about, the religion, that what we call religion today is not African. But even religion in Africa had its own concepts that are actually aligned with the Obund. And since you're in the education sector, I think those are some of the concepts that actually could change even the dynamics of sexuality. It could actually advise better, it could actually present a different concept about all this sexuality and whatnot. So that's the concept that actually I feel like we could address, because, you see, I look at Africa as a place where most of the things have not been explored, if you think about it, and most of the things that you have explored, even in the 60 or 70 years that Africa has had its independence, as they call it, our history, has been erased. That's one of the reasons why I do this podcast, because, if you look at it, I don't know how many times you've done interviews across the world, and I know you've done a couple of them Maybe three minutes is what gets to be heard, or zero minutes.
Speaker 1:After hours of conversations right, but for me, I'm saying, any conversation we have here remains as history, remains as what we believe in. We also learn from each other. I'm looking at it from that perspective that actually, sophie Boat could advise the whole world how to educate people about this without leaning on this is it or this is it? That's interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's fair because, yeah. So the problem, the problem I hate about talking to people outside the continent about this problem is there's an over insistence on playing up the we share we share, like what's the sadistic core of teenage pregnancy in. Kenya, but rather than just saying it's awkward and hard to talk about. In Kenya, like in this continent, like I can say about that, people absolutely get it. Outside Africa there's there's an insistence on playing up the, the oh. You only started like writing. You started writing code at 19.
Speaker 3:Oh, there's a, there's a need to play up the wishy-wishy.
Speaker 2:It's like other than like oh this is a problem too.
Speaker 1:That's very important because it reminds me of something. The reason I do what I do is because I realized maybe you don't know why I do what I do. Maybe I should tell you I realized that Africa is the most smartest guys. But, as you say, the education for us is presented as a way out of poverty.
Speaker 1:I know the enemy is the poverty, no doubt about that. But should we be poor? You know, in the whole world, africa is the most richest by all definitions. Right? We all know, you and I who have gone to school, that most of the other continents exist because of our resources. Right, I'm not saying they're poor. I'm just saying if we put all the Ulabalu aside and state the facts, no, like how is Switzerland the chocolate capital of? The world. They don't have a single cocoa tree.
Speaker 2:They don't have a single cocoa tree. How are they the chocolate capital of the world?
Speaker 1:If we have those conversations, we can say and I'm not saying there's any, I don't have anything against anyone. I'm just saying poverty is the enemy in Africa. But should we be poor? That's the question. I'm trying to address, because if we remove the poverty then we're able to address so many other underlying things.
Speaker 1:Even sexuality education should be not an issue, because now we have the resources, because most of the molestation, most of the choices are made out of that desperate situation where you don't like, maybe a girl needs a pad to have sex and then they get HIV, which now their life is messed up right, or pregnancy, or you know STIs.
Speaker 1:you know all these things. So, as we think about all these scenarios that actually prop all these other problems that you need to solve, I realize that we are the most smartest and the best way to go about this is that how can we actually use that, like you are doing, and define the?
Speaker 1:you know the process of spending your 16 years in college, primary, wherever, and say, well, I know how to build this, let me go and build it and then see how the world receives it and I will make a decision based on that, which is so fascinating when you think about it. I don't know if you have ever heard about this and that's how I like looking at it, and that doesn't make you better or bad than someone who has created it. Maybe they have a reason. Maybe if someone becomes a lecturer, all in good, because they contribute something. But if you put all these aspects together, then we find the true power and the true meaning of being an African. And this also brings us to whereby.
Speaker 1:Why do black Americans don't like coming back to Africa? Now, when you get to that also, maybe it's lack of education, because the way africa is painted out there maybe it's not the right way. Maybe the education they gave there is the wrong one. And now when you see how all these, now you see solutions that actually you can build on top of softboard and grow to be some. Some, you know, go to resource yeah, absolutely, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, that absolutely makes sense. So the introduction to Africa is the same as the white man, like it's either a lion king living here you have a pet lion, or you don't have food Like there's an entire meme, or you don't have food, like there's an entire meme you don't have food or what it's crazy.
Speaker 2:Africa is prone to inequalities, the same as where they live, and they need to reform and learn and learn and learn that. And, yeah, we can be an outlet for that. The good thing I like and it goes across like the diaspora, an outlet for that. The good thing I like and then it goes across the diaspora and people like that is we retained our sense of community. Yes, yes, yes, which is so powerful, very powerful.
Speaker 2:It does make sense. You get into a and don't say hi to guys. It's weird man it makes sense. You don't know who lives next door to you. Even though you don't want to talk about it. Like I think it's very foreign to people outside. Like when they come to this side of town, they're like oh, there's a WhatsApp group for this, you live in.
Speaker 1:And it's just normal.
Speaker 2:It's normal. So, yeah, I think yeah, that's the thing we can start from, like community ingrained in all of us, and yeah, that can be a point of of of convergence and can build on top of that.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. So, Mukasa, that that was a very good conversation that you have had and thank you for honoring our our invite. I know we have postponed this for a year but now it has happened. This is amazing. I don't know what message you have for our listeners. You know, maybe I don't know what message you have for our listeners. Maybe encourage them to subscribe?
Speaker 2:Yeah, check out.
Speaker 1:Maybe check out our socials and our channels for support and maybe parting shots.
Speaker 2:So I was even worried. I was worried, like you and me, to start the program. I was like history turns out badly, but then now it's good. I was like. But then we went through the journey and we covered it. Yeah, check out. So it's good to you, I was like. But then we went through the journey and we covered it. Yeah, check out.
Speaker 2:Hi to today on 23629, go out there and have open more like. Aside from check out how open and honest conversations the last plug is I've been a fan of Africa's Talking way before. So if and they like from before the value position was clear. Fun of Africa stocking way before. From before the value position was clear Rather than dealing with telcos directly and how fast you need to build a solution with them, it's faster to build with solutions like Africa stocking. I never left the house to build an SMS solution. It was back and forth on email for a week and solution was done and I remember that we want that for every other solution that's built outside there. So yeah, aside from that, go out there and try new things and drive open and honest conversations on sexual health.
Speaker 1:Nice. Thank you so much. So I made it a habit to conclude the proverb African proverb, so I have one for you and for our listeners, which says there is no part of the meat that is not tasty. To see it and to look away is the important thing.
Speaker 1:I'll repeat there is no part of the meat that is not tasty. To see it and to look away is the important thing. I'll leave that to your translation Until next time. This is Michael Kemadi or, if you want, MK, representing Impact Masters Podcasts in collaboration with Africa's Talking Retort Podcasts coming to you live from Nairobi, Kenya, and our guests Amukasa Iving, the CEO and founder of Sofibot. Check out Sofibot Sofibot.
Speaker 2:It's Sofibot on all platforms. At me, Sofibot on all platforms. Text HI to 23629.
Speaker 1:Ah, very nice, and get sexually educated, as they say it. Until next time. Thank you so much.
