Impact Masters Podcast
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Impact Masters Podcast
#50 Impact Master: Tom Building Digital Bridges in African Fintech
The entrepreneurial journey from campus coder to fintech disruptor comes alive in this compelling conversation with Tom Kimani, founder of Presta. With remarkable candor, Tom reveals how his early fascination with computers transformed into a passion for solving real financial problems across Africa.
Tom's story is rooted in humble beginnings – from growing up near power stations where his father worked, to setting up an impressive workspace in his university days that left his peers in awe. What sets his narrative apart is how he leveraged limited resources to create maximum impact. While other startups chase massive funding rounds, Tom built Presta on the radical notion that "your biggest investor is actually your customer." This customer-first philosophy guided every aspect of his company's growth.
The conversation takes us through the evolution of Presta, which began as a simple digital lending platform and expanded to revolutionize how Savings and Credit Cooperative Organizations (SACCOs) operate. Tom shares the breakthrough moment when they created a digital loan application system with e-signatures, eliminating the need for physical paperwork and in-person guarantors. This innovation proved especially valuable during COVID when traditional paper-based systems became problematic.
What truly distinguishes this episode is Tom's transparency about the challenges of building a fintech in Africa – from navigating slow decision-making cycles in traditional financial institutions to implementing robust security measures while handling billions in loan disbursements. His insights on hiring ("sometimes you have to hire people and pay them more than you're earning") offer a refreshing perspective on leadership and talent management.
As Presta expands beyond Kenya's borders to Zambia and Botswana, Tom's story reminds us that African solutions can scale continent-wide when entrepreneurs focus on genuine customer needs rather than chasing trends. Whether you're building your first startup or scaling an established business, Tom's journey demonstrates that with passion, persistence, and a deep understanding of local markets, African entrepreneurs can create technology that transforms lives.
Ready to be inspired by the next generation of African tech innovators? Subscribe now and join our community of forward-thinking listeners passionate about technology's role in shaping Africa's future.
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Welcome, welcome once again. It's a beautiful day, Day of the Lord. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Today we have a wonderful guest in the house. It's Africa's Talking Podcast, in collaboration with Impact Masters Podcast, coming to you live and direct. I'm your host, michael Kemadi. If you want MK, if you're not subscribed, please press that subscribe button and ensure that you like, follow and comment where necessary.
Speaker 1:With over a decade of experience in software development, tom Kibani has worked with notable organizations such as ICPAK, strathmore University, clinton Foundation. He has also spent five years in the fintech space, with experience in the psycho and microfinance sectors. Bum's exceptional skills in digitization have seen him successfully manage the digitization of over 100 lenders over the last decade. He is deeply passionate about the impact of AI in the learning space and constantly seeks ways to incorporate this technology to provide more innovative solutions. Tom, how are you? How are you? Tom? I am very good. Yeah, we started with some technical itch, but don't worry, we are back and you're good to go. It's good to host you, tom. That's just what I see here on your profile, but you know, that's just that for the profile. So I would like to know who is Tom Kimani? Mori Ranja.
Speaker 2:So Tom Kimani is a passionate entrepreneur, or tech entrepreneur, who's passionate to digitize the lending space and the fintech space.
Speaker 1:Yes, Nice, nice. Where were you born, Tom? Take us all the way back. Where did it all start?
Speaker 2:So my journey starts in somewhere in Naivasha my dad used to work for a company called Kenjen. So I was born and raised there. Then we moved to Embu where the Seven Fox Dams are. We spent a couple of years there. Then here I am, then going to there, then here I am, then going to campus, then the hustle began.
Speaker 1:Kaka, you're making this story of you as Tom Kimani sound like Makonde's story Gone on Monday and by Sunday, gone Like a little screenshot. No, no, no, take it easy. Man like um, you know, sometimes we tend to to think that we are passed through life or as we have lived. So where did you go to school? Like you know, since you know you are a young kid I don't know if you are those kids who used to touch their ears to go to nursery school or you're the kindergarten kind of student. Yeah, how was it for you growing up, like, take us through that journey, take us in Tomorinai. If someone hears about this story, even you appear there like, oh my goodness, this was good life or this was not good life.
Speaker 2:For me. I was fortunate enough to so. I started in a primary school called Mvuke. Mvuke was like the primary school inside the power stations where I used to live. Where is that? Mvuke is in Naivasha, olkaria. Okay, olkaria, olkaria, jyothamo. You have heard about Jyothamo, yeah, so that's where we started. From there, we went to a school called Gilgil Hills.
Speaker 1:Ah, third class.
Speaker 2:I still that was from standard one to okay. So preschool standard one, two and three Okay two and three.
Speaker 1:Okay, that was Mvuke Primary School.
Speaker 2:That's Mvuke Primary School. I think in 36 is when we went to boarding in a very wonderful school called Gilgil Hills Academy.
Speaker 1:It's close to the Jodamo plant right.
Speaker 2:No, no. Gilgil Hills is in Gilgil Next, near Utomishi Utomishi Academy. Is that not close to Naibasha? It's very close 50 kilometers from Naibasha. It's not so close. So I was lucky enough that my dad used to believe in good education and he used to put all his eggs into making sure that you get the best education ever. So I went to Gilgil Hills. We spent two years there. Then my dad was transferred to still Kenjin, but now Hydro. Then I went to a school called Weros Academy. Where is it?
Speaker 1:It's in Embo, Embo okay. What is that plant? Masinga, masinga.
Speaker 2:Masinga Dab. Masinga, masinga.
Speaker 1:Dam.
Speaker 2:Masinga Dam. So we started in a. So when we left Nivasha, Seven Folk Dams is a couple of dams, Okay, so it starts with Masinga, Kamburu, Gitaro Kindaruma, and then there's another one. That is End of the Road. Have you heard about End of the Road? Where is that? It's called Kiambere.
Speaker 1:Kiambere is still close to Embu.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's close to Embu, but it's actually in Machakos County.
Speaker 1:Because also Embu is a neighboring Kamba nation. Mwingi yes.
Speaker 2:So my dad went. So I went to a school called Wero's, finished my KCS, even KCP, kcp. Yes, that's it. That's it Now. From there I went to Meru school.
Speaker 1:Okay, what did you get to go to Meru school? Meru school is another school.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a good school. Apparently, I was picked. I was picked by? Is it called Jab or what is it? I don't know them.
Speaker 1:For the high school. It's not Jab, that is university.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, but you are.
Speaker 1:I was called.
Speaker 2:I was called to Meru school. I remember it was very worrying, Everyone asking what is this Meru school?
Speaker 1:What did you get in KCT.
Speaker 2:I scored very good. I think I got 420 something.
Speaker 1:Then of course it should be 420?
Speaker 2:423?.
Speaker 1:Supposed to go to Alliance or something. Guys passed really well that year.
Speaker 2:But Meru school was not a bad school. Steele is not a bad school Right now. Actually it's a national school.
Speaker 1:Oh, it is. Yes, oh wow, that's news to me. When were they?
Speaker 2:upgraded? I have no idea, but I know right now they are a national school. Yeah, so went there from one to form four Typ. Went there from one to four Typical student. You were there during Kariuki's time Exactly.
Speaker 1:And Kariuki. Actually, for those who don't know, kariuki is one of those principals, like Hayemba. For those who have listened to our previous podcast, yes. There are some guys from Friends. Is it Friends? What Lugulu yes, hayemba was from there went to alliance yes. Now, for those who know kariuki, he left a huge mark at alliance actually, before he came there, he was from middle school yes yes, just just just to. I think we should host him one of these fine days definitely I think he's.
Speaker 2:He's actually done a podcast with um one of guys. Yeah, that's nice and it's a very interesting story because he went from Meru School to Alliance, to Embu County.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he went back to Embu County.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he was appointed as CEC. Cec, yes, oh interesting. Then from there, right now, he's in a school called Merusho. You know, merusho? No, it's like an international school in Kusho. You know Merusho, no, no, no, it's like an international school in Kajiado.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's where now he's the principal. That's where he's the principal, because me I thought from my last he retired.
Speaker 2:No, no, no. In fact, that's most people think, but it was a very transformative.
Speaker 1:I also saw some weird story about him. But I also saw some weird story about him. But when we talked with him, I'll ask him A proper lance. Yes, yes, you should host him.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes For sure. So from high school is where I had a deep passion for computing. I remember all the way from two we had this interesting projects that you used to do, building just simple applications. So that's where my passion for computing started. Using visual yeah, it was visual basic, okay, and I took, we took computer as a subject but later on dropped it because we were told it had no impact. We'll say so, that was because we were told it had no impact. Like we'll say so, that was what we were told then. But from there so when they cleared high school, I had one clear mission I wanted to do computing. So in fact, my options are very clear with Jquart and Roby. So I was just playing with computers. It was computer science, computer technology, computer.
Speaker 2:Computer and mathematics, computer and mathematics You're just playing with those things. Did you see BBIT? No, no, I don't know where BBIT came from, but yeah, I think it's being started at Strathmore.
Speaker 1:Actually, I think Strathmore are the ones who started BBIT Something yeah.
Speaker 2:So it was from high school. Actually, I think some were the ones who started the BBFT Something. Yeah, yeah, so it was from high school. I went directly to University of Nairobi and that's actually where I met you. You met, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So maybe I should. Should you give a background story of ask me? But when I met this guy actually I was almost leaving university and going to prepare to come to the university once more, because this dude actually had prepared well, one of the things actually that we noted he had two stations, two working stations At home. He had a whole working station. Now that I think about working from home, that's when I think about you. He had a desktop, a very powerful desktop with a mechanical keyboard. I don't want to say gaming chair, but a nice chair Also he had a laptop to come to school and a very big computer.
Speaker 2:You know those desktops that you used to have. They had a stomach. What is that thing?
Speaker 1:called Even the used one, cti. See, see what CRC, yes, crc. We have a Telecommunication engineer in the house you are referring from. So what made us visit this chief over here is because we are given this programming assignment my Dr Chepke now, I think, is a professor or something and then we were figuring out how do we even go and do this assignment, because even a laptop itself he didn't have. And then this chief is done with the assignment. You're like how did you do the assignment? No, he said, you know, I have a working station at home where I've set up my computer.
Speaker 1:For those who have gone to these universities, it's not really easy for you to configure the school university computer right and install anything that you want, unless the technician helps you install all that. And also, of course, you know how that process, how it goes. So when we visited this chief we were like, oh man, maybe I'm in the wrong course. But however, we really fast-tracked the process and by second year, second semester, when you're tested for the project, we were ready with our project, but please, there's your story to tell.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so.
Speaker 1:What made you prepare that much? Because you see someone who maybe I don't know with the CBC if people will be called by job or something, but there's someone who completes maybe their grade 7 now that's their grades or grade 9 or 10. I'm not sure where. You join the university, okay, after form. The curriculum right now is a bit confusing. But say, you're joining the university and you want to do computer science, or maybe you want to start programming from high school, because right now it's possible. So what is this thing that made you prepare really well to an extent that you knew that I need a home working station where I configure everything, then a school laptop where maybe I take notes and copy the presentations and just be organized.
Speaker 2:I think my passion for entrepreneurship started pretty early because when I cleared from four, my dad had used to own a bar In this dam.
Speaker 1:Yes, Because it's a bit remote.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes so it's a remote place, so you can live like a barracks. Yes, yes, yes, exactly. So that barracks is a social hall and that social hall, so my dad took that.
Speaker 1:Your dad must be a senior officer. Yes, must have been a senior officer. Is he retired now?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, he's retired.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So that's where I started. So I used to run that bar and at that time M-Pesa was starting. It was 2007, 2008. And then I saw this opportunity where to register anyone on M-Pesa. M-pesa used to pay you, I think it was 150 or 200.
Speaker 1:Oh really, yes, so there was a commission around it there was a commission around it.
Speaker 2:So I was like, let's go and apply this thing quickly, quickly. Then I came there and started registering guys to M-Pesa. Oh nice, Now. You see now.
Speaker 1:So that's how you made the money.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, so that's where the money started from. So when I used to have savings of like 6K or 5K just by doing that, then my dad tops up and you buy a machine.
Speaker 1:But why would your dad buy your machine? Did you tell him like I want to do this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. When I joined the university. Exactly, and then we used to. As we were growing up, we used to be computer fanatics, computer gaming fanatics.
Speaker 1:So you used to also, but there you used to again.
Speaker 2:So FIFA Hitman. There was a game called Hitman, I think. I don't know if you've played it. It was a very interesting game.
Speaker 1:I've seen it somewhere.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah Then. So the passion for computing was there. So by the time we went to school to join first year, still doing very small we call them silly but very effective jobs I remember I used to register people to the NEC portal Students. Yeah, you know, my mom was a teacher. Oh, okay, yeah, so my mom was a teacher High school or primary Primary school teacher. Okay, so there was a gap. Of people need to register to the next quarter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it gives me a list of like 600 students. Then I'm there typing on Excel. Were you judging them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's no free lunch.
Speaker 1:How much per student?
Speaker 2:I can't remember, I can't remember, so anyway I can't remember.
Speaker 1:So anyway, because I remember, you told us when we were, like you know, getting to know each other yes, oh, chief me, I'm an entrepreneur, I've been doing entrepreneurship, so this is the time I'm hearing how that entrepreneurship actually worked.
Speaker 2:So the passion for entrepreneurship was deep inside me, yeah, and that's how we used to. So maybe you buy us a monitor this time. Tomorrow you buy this chair secondhand chair and you know we used to rent an SQ somewhere in Jamuri, yeah this chief was living large.
Speaker 1:When people actually graduate nowadays, they start their life in Wanyi or Kawangwari. This chief in the university was living in Jamuri, neighboring Sudanese people dealing with dollars.
Speaker 2:Not really Just hustling, hustling.
Speaker 1:You cannot be living in Jamuri and you're hustling.
Speaker 2:But it is interesting that you talk about all these things. You don't look at yourself, because you're also a very inspiring guy, because I remember you guys used to live somewhere there in Dagodji, in Wanyi.
Speaker 1:Don't exaggerate it In Wanyi those who know Wanyi is just a number place. You can start life there. I actually moved to Jamuri after I graduated. You can start life there. I actually moved to Jamuri after I graduated. That's when I could afford to move to Jamuri. But all you know like what matters is you know you prepare daily For us. You know what brought us to Nairobi is university and we met people like Tom, who was well organized, and we got inspired. We also organized over time, correct.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So in campus we started our company. You know, we were gaining skills. Yeah, by the time we were in second year, I think second year, we had learned a couple of skills. Yes, yes. So we teamed up with a couple of guys, a couple of friends, all of them in entrepreneurship, doing really well.
Speaker 1:If you have seen some entrepreneurs who are from the University of Nairobi and they are doing really well, chances are we also worked with them.
Speaker 2:So there was a guy called Alex Alexander, CEO at Solitech. We started a company. We called it Solitech, Not SunSmart, SunSmart Solutions. At that time we just learned how to build websites. I remember just getting the first website to do in second year. It was an e-commerce site for a madam who was running a gift shop. And we did that work and we got paid and it was the first time now to touch serious money.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so this is what happened. So these chiefs, you know when you're in the university, the public university. There are two in the kitchen, I don't know if it's in the kitchen. There are two places where you can eat. So there's where the lecturers and the toms, where they eat, and it can cost you an arm and a leg by then, and there's where other people, like you know, mk and others used to eat.
Speaker 1:So one of these fine days, myself and CTO at Fintlas Banta, we happened to join Moriranja in the queue of the actually you guys never used to have a queue Because people would pay and then you sit down and get served at the university level. So we get to doing that and then you guys were curious like what changed? I don't know if you remember that story. And then we shared like no guys, you're doing some projects for some clients and they're paying. And you are so fascinated by that like you kept asking are they really paying with Alex? Are they really paying? How are you set up? Do you have a business? Do you need to register? And all that Also.
Speaker 1:For us, before we got paid because we got this really big project, we had actually to register a business so that we can get paid. It's a bantamink. One of these fine days I'll tell this story. And you know, for check to actually even be paid, you need all that. You need a bank account. At least we had PIN because of the ALB and whatnot, but for a company we had not even thought about it.
Speaker 1:So if you do the work, you get paid, but there's some money that you don't just get paid. And then you guys were like, wow, actually we need to be also building, because you guys used already that head start on building stuff yeah and that's how actually you guys, I think, started, you know the business yes and when you got paid, actually you were so excited very excited very excited. Do you remember how much it was?
Speaker 2:I think it was like 15,000 ah 15,000 20,000 you guys were like 15,000.
Speaker 1:Ah, 15,000, 20,000.
Speaker 2:You guys were suffering 15,000, 20,000 in campus. Eh yeah, it is serious man, it is serious money and yeah, that's how the entrepreneurship journey began. Yes, yes, and from there it was school, school, school.
Speaker 1:Then we got done with school, but you know that in people you used to get some school school, then we got done with school. But you're not telling people you used to get some good grades in school In this school, school school. How many schools have you seen? Those are his. He's a guy who used to go to consults.
Speaker 2:Like why?
Speaker 1:What did you do to what's so special about this unit that you could be able to get a cut 25, 20?
Speaker 2:But you see, the one thing you learn with universities is you learn the disparities in people, because there are people who don't read Like.
Speaker 1:Who Are you trying to point fingers here? No, no, there are people who don't read Like. Who Are you?
Speaker 2:trying to point fingers here. No, no, there are people who don't read. They don't, they are never there, but when results come, you don't see them in class.
Speaker 1:You only see them when the lecturer is there, even in class, he's in backbench or what.
Speaker 2:But when results come, you realize what.
Speaker 1:Mambo is different.
Speaker 2:Mambo is different, man, this guy is number one.
Speaker 1:There were no numbers in the university, but grades could tell you this guy is either landing second or first class.
Speaker 2:But what was unfair is that unfairness of you. You are always in class, always in class, always in class Taking notes, taking notes. I remember even people borrowing my book, photocopying when me, and two days to the cut, someone borrowing a book and photocopying. And so that's when you realize there's two distinctions in life. There are people who have to work and there are people who are highly talented. But in life it's so balanced in such a way that these people who have to work and there are people who are highly talented, but in life it's so balanced in such a way that these people who are that bright also lack some social capabilities. And you find a guy like you now and you know how to mobilize a lot of people towards a cause. So that's when gifts, different gifts, start to show up in different people. And I remember at some point I was a student leader.
Speaker 1:Oh, by the way, you were. Yeah, I was a student leader. I wasn't in school enough times to realize you were in school. Which year? Second or that?
Speaker 2:Not student leader the politician, they were leader the politician, they are just saying the class.
Speaker 1:Oh, representative, yeah, representative. I remember first year, second year, now that one I thought, maybe you ran for office.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, that is political. I mean, you need political muscle, it is see, it is see. For me, I think the passion was in making money and considering that we were Kikuyu's and I remember there was a program by Blackberry.
Speaker 1:I used to run that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you see, now this guy started very far.
Speaker 1:You joined for a few events and then you gave up.
Speaker 2:No, we didn't give up. I've seen the pictures. No, there was Blackberry, there was Google, yeah, and so we used to attend all these client kind of events and it was glad that that motion started very far.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, if you're listening out there and maybe in the university it's always good to be involved in. Out here, like at Africa Stocking, we do a couple of arcabounds. Come and test your skills at your learning school. Interact with other developers. You'll find even software engineers in different companies coming for those arcabounds. There is now more communities than ever. Then actually you could count how many communities are in the ecosystem. Those things were starting up then. That's when IAB was new and I'm glad I played a key role in enabling most of those and helping start most of those. But nowadays I'm proud to see so many, even language-specific, communities led by Baby.
Speaker 1:Second, that fourth generation after we started. Yeah, maybe second, third, fourth generation after we started. I'm still actually so strong about that because I've seen how an ecosystem can change over time If actually people gather and start challenging each other, learning from each other, helping each other solve solutions. It's not a sprint, it's a marathon and everyone means if you know something I know and I know something you know. It doesn't mean that now you become irrelevant, correct, and I know. In school most of the time people learn to compete. Yeah, that's the best way.
Speaker 1:I wish CBC started teaching collaboration Correct, because you see, when people come together, a lot of things actually become much, much easier.
Speaker 2:Yeah and anyway, just to add a point now, sitting here in the business world, especially in the tech business world, you now start to appreciate the value of those communities Absolutely. You now start to understand why big companies invest in these communities, because that's where talent is fetched, the pipeline you have to build a pipeline. You have to build a pipeline, and the only way you do that is by willing communities. So never despise them. Attend all of them. That's where your talent is picked. Don't think people do hackathons just for the sake of wasting time. That's when they build talent. Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1:And I believe in the university you have a lot of free time, to be honest, like if you have done it for four words. You just need to remember what the slides say, not what the books say. For the book you can go deep and understand actually the content, that's fine. But for you to really get first class, second class upper, you know, you, for you to really get first class, second class upper, you know, you just need to really understand what the lecturer is, you know, trying to share.
Speaker 1:Correct and remember the way he shared it, because the one who will maybe mark your exam.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:And if he doesn't see what and how they share the concepts, then it doesn't relate with it. So the extra time you can actually go deeper and beyond that. Now go and test your skill in these communities, even try to present, because you see something else maybe people who do engineering don't really understand clearly is that even if you build rockets, you need to present that rocket to people who don't understand what is a rocket, right, exactly, you need to package that and make it more palatable. Yes, people who will use that rocket in a day more palatable. Yes, people who you know will use that rocket in a day-to-day.
Speaker 2:Correct yeah.
Speaker 1:Chances of you as an engineer using what you build day-to-day are a bit minimal.
Speaker 2:And this misconception that just having a good product will sell itself Unless you are Apple. No, yeah. At the end of the day, even Apple puts a lot of emphasis on the market, so you have to work together with different teams. Team playing is such critical.
Speaker 1:Absolutely yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so continue with my story.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes, please, it's still your story. It's not that you have diverted. Yes, so you do Sun diverted. Yes, so you do Sunsmarts. Yeah, alex, were you a team of two or four?
Speaker 2:We were a team of four. We were Arif. There was a guy called Arif, also still a co-founder at Solutech Solutech.
Speaker 1:There was Motie.
Speaker 2:Motie was not there.
Speaker 1:Awil Motio is not there, I will. I will Osman from Somalia. From Somalia, one guy who is so resilient. Yes, I need to host him one of these five days Because that dude has graduated. Went back to Somalia, tried to start an innovation ecosystem.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes, it's something, but he's a very good guy. Yes, he is. And so after school, what happened for me? I think there was a friend of mine called Dugan. We had grown up with him a couple of years somewhere there end of the road Kiambere. So when he finished school he had done computer science and was already on the working market.
Speaker 1:Jquart, or the University of Nairobi. Jquart, okay, so he used to talk. In fact, he used done computer science and he was already on the working market. Jquart, or the University of Nairobi.
Speaker 2:Jquart, so he used to talk. In fact, he used to live somewhere in Jamuri and what happened is since he was already on the working space and I was also learning in school. So some jobs, you'll get some jobs and then outsource them to me.
Speaker 1:Oh, outsource okay.
Speaker 2:Okay, not outsource them to me. Oh, outsource, okay. Okay, don't outsource literally, but basically assign certain tasks to you and then get paid and you get paid.
Speaker 2:You know, for him it was like a side hustle thing for him. So by the time we were completing school, he was already so done with the employment. Yeah, so I remember he used, he used to. He moved to South Bay and he asked me what's your plan? I was like me, I want to do business full time. And so he told me about his dream also was to get into entrepreneurship. And then we started a product and we call it Wira. Wira in Kikui is work. It was a workflow management solution and at that time I think he had seen the opportunity in workflow automation and we started working on that particular product. I remember now, after finishing school, I had to move.
Speaker 2:We went to South Bay and this company thing started sometime in early 2013, end of 2012, 2013. We started in a sitting room, in his sitting room, in his sitting room, because my sitting room was just an SQ. So we started our company called WorkPoint Limited. We were doing software consulting and we also had a product called Wiraio and we started pushing to the market. Strathmore University noticed us. They had an organizer hackathon and during that hackathon it was like a three-day hackathon. Was it through iLab? Yes, through iLab. And we went and pitched there and we became number two. And when we became number two, that's when Strathmore told us now we'll give you a desk there so you can operate from here.
Speaker 1:Remember, did the seal have that quacking? Or the iLab? I do, I don't know, not as aggressive as before.
Speaker 2:I don't know why they're not aggressive with it. It's a very great opportunity for me. If you had such resources, you could do massive things. We went to iLab, we were hosted there at iLab and what happened is, while there, we started getting outsourced, also by Strathmore University. I think at some point Strathmore offered us a job opportunity. We told them no. To do what? To be one of their engineers? Oh, okay.
Speaker 1:As consulting engineers or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, not as employees. Okay, so we changed that term from consulting to from permanent employees, to consulting engineers, oh, okay, and they used to give us a couple of jobs because they had access to the market. Yeah, and all they needed is people to execute these projects. And that's actually what taught us a lot. That's what opened our doors and it's great advice to tell especially young guys who are graduating and thinking that all the knowledge they have in terms of coding, that's all that is needed in the market. What Strathmore taught us was now industry experience, because now you have to go to a client, you have to get their requirements, you have to communicate, you have to do project management. These things are never taught in any school. No course on all these things. These are life courses. You have to negotiate, you have to do quotations, temperament, those kind of skills, and we stayed in Stranmore University from 2013 to 2015. And in 2015 now we moved now to our own office as Workpoint Limited Somewhere in Navaheel. So, own office as WorkPoint Limited, somewhere in Navaheel.
Speaker 1:So Wira turned into WorkPoint Limited.
Speaker 2:Wira was just a product of WorkPoint Limited, so the registered company name was WorkPoint Limited, but we just named the product Wiraio.
Speaker 1:So in this conversation with the clients is where you came up with the FlexiPay and iConserve as issues added.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes, yes. So FlexiPay was a project that we did for one of the clients called eSpaq. Espaq is a certified body for accountants, so we digitized the entire member processes, so how people book events, how people pay subscription, etc, and part of it included a payment mechanism, and that's why we decided to come with a payment gateway called LexXPay, and we did a lot of projects, a lot of projects between then.
Speaker 1:Do you think now doing this project for clients and then realizing how impactful they are, you could actually use that knowledge to build a more robust and more well-encouraged solution for different companies.
Speaker 2:As a consultant, the knowledge you get from working with companies is you get to see the problems. In fact, if you look at all, even the next product that we came up, all Presta, came from those, all those experiences, from the needs of the customer. So you looking at a gap and realize, oh, there's a gap there. So now you tap into that particular gap. But okay, one thing, that one experience that we learned about projects is cash, or managing cash flow. One thing is no project goes as expected, so meaning that there will always be delays here and there. There will always be clients, says clients, we'll pay you next week that was my next question.
Speaker 1:Did everyone pay on time and pay as agreed?
Speaker 2:I'm telling you, running a startup, especially a tech startup I don't know about other industries, it's all industries in general you realize that cash flow is king. People who have cash is king, because you get a very good project, a very big project. They're not paying time you deploy resources, you deploy scoders and all these kind of people. Then you realize okay, client told you next week or the CEO flew went to ZG Web Maldives and it is end of month and you have people to pay who doesn't know you have people to pay you have everything so, and that's a big challenge in a lot of startups Managing cash, cash flow, and the banks don't look at you.
Speaker 2:I remember one time I had this good LPO I'd been given and there I was as a young entrepreneur, going to a bank. The bank tells you what do you want? So they want a collateral.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what do you want? What do you want? Fine, yeah collateral?
Speaker 2:Yeah, what do you want? What do you want? Okay, fine, yeah, you want. Yeah, I can see the LPO is very good. But what do you want? What is the collateral? What do you own? As in what assets?
Speaker 1:If you don't own anything, I still have my two kidneys intact.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so anyway, that is one of the key lessons that even necessitated us from doing a lot of projects to us building our own SAS solution, and that transition was. One of the contributing factors was the fact that you didn't have consistent cash. You're always on running One project closes, you're looking for another one or another closes, you're looking. But all in all, it was a very wonderful learning journey.
Speaker 1:Because now, if you're running a big company like Twesta now, and even, I think, workpoint has grown to you know.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1:Then it gives you some proper experience of actually managing cash flow, ensuring that you're growing Correct and ensuring that your customers are satisfied and they get their products on time.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So what led to starting Presta?
Speaker 2:So well. During this experience of building software or doing different projects, we got a microfinance Microfinance that was looking to go into the lending, digital lending, the mobile lending. It was around 2012, and I think Mshuari had started. Then there was a product called Corporacy. Now the digital lending was now beginning and now everyone also wanted to get into that space of digital lending. So one client came and told us can you build us an app that can lend to people? And yes, we said yes. We did the work, delivered, hosted on Play Store. So you started an Android app. An Android app Someone registers, it, checks your score on CRB. From that score it allocates you a limit and from that limit you can borrow, sends you to M-Pesa and reminds you to pay. That's it. That's the scope of work.
Speaker 1:But implementing that is a different story.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we started the implementation, did the work delivered to the client.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I'm curious how easy was it to access CRB APIs?
Speaker 2:So, since this guy was already a microfinance, he had the networks. So for you, it's just like we need the CRB APIs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just an email away. Ah, very nice.
Speaker 2:Just an email away. So after delivering that project, I remember sitting in the office myself and co-founder Dugan and asking myself how many more microfinance want to get into this space? Ah, how many more circles want to get into this space? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think the experience even started with, as a family, we have like a welfare group and we kept contributing money every month. We were just contributing as per family, maybe like two Gs, and that money is just sitting in IB.
Speaker 1:It doesn't grow, it doesn't do anything In a bank account.
Speaker 2:Yeah, even if it grows, it's 2%, 6% per year and yet when anyone needs an emergency, they run directly to Emshwari or these other products. And that is actually the birth of Presta. This is 2017. So we took that project and asked ourselves how can we scale this business?
Speaker 1:So what is Presta?
Speaker 2:So when we found this idea, the point was to land Kopesha. And the first word we thought let's call this thing Kopesha, but we Kopesha. And the first word we thought let's call this thing Kopesha, but we realized Kopesha. That does sound interesting I remember in a traffic jam somewhere in Tikal I googled what is lending in Spanish. Googled. Then the word Presta came up, oh nice. Then I looked in the IG of E-Citizen, it word Presta came up, oh nice. Then I looked Is Presta registered? No one has registered.
Speaker 1:You registered then and then.
Speaker 2:Then and then. So we registered Presta. So Presta is ideally to lend. Okay, in Spanish, in Spanish, okay. And we registered Presta and went out to the market. Yeah, and to the market, ideally. The first target market for us was charmers. We thought how many charmers are there? There are so many charmers, so we don't even need to charge this thing. We'll just charge 20, bob, 20 shillings, and then all chummers will come running. Yeah, the lines per transaction or per transaction. Okay, every time someone takes a loan, 20 shillings 20 bob.
Speaker 1:You didn't know how.
Speaker 2:What 20 bob means to what 20 bob means to to us. Yeah, and anyway we. So we started humbly there did they pay this 20? Bob as a challenge. They did, but we were not as serious then. I remember you know, from these projects we got some money here and there. So we decided let's save the money, the savings that we have, let's put together and build a version one of this thing, an MVP and we the first charmer to recruit was my family charmer Got there inside and from there we started now pushing.
Speaker 1:You're the first person I hear. Your first customer was your family members. They trust you really well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, they're part of the family. There's different families of the family. There's different families, but the family Chama was operating. In a way, it was not about the system, it was us coming together Just digitizing the whole process, and so we started pushing to the market. I remember we attended the first Chama conference in Mombasa. This is 2018, or, yeah, 2018. Late 2018. There was a charmer conference organized by Bandari Saco and still goes on to date, and so we went to that charmer Recruiting more charmers.
Speaker 2:Recruiting more charmers. So we realized a couple ofammers. But so we realized a couple of things. Okay one and this is some of the challenges of running a startup is okay one. You are running on very limited resources, yes, yes. And on the other side, you still need to do marketing, you still need to do sales Recruiting, yeah, and recruiting is not cheap, yes, so, and and that's when now you start asking yourself how for me to push this thing, then I need, I need to get some finances. I need to get some someone who can believe in this, whatever you're saying yeah and invest in it and invest in it.
Speaker 2:Yeah and um, for, lucky enough, we had a couple of friends who were seeing what we were doing. You know, you're just posting on LinkedIn and the first friend decided I'll sponsor that marketing event for you guys. Yeah, so we went there, started recruiting and we recruited a couple of charmers. But then we realized Chamas also have one challenge, which is they are not structured when they meet on Sunday. After that, there's no secretariat that runs that Chama. So we decided, okay, we go a step higher, a step higher. From charmer it's actually a circle, because our circle is a charmer. Now that has grown beyond. Now they have a couple of savings, now they have an office and they are a bit more structured. And I think in 2019, our bank, my bank, or basically our bank, ncba, was running. I remember seeing an email they are running an entrepreneur program with Strathmore University and they were sponsoring customers. So you applied.
Speaker 2:I applied it was an entrepreneurship course with Strathmore, so we went to, I did the course and during that course I happened to. It opened up other networks because I happened to meet Chris Senano. If you know Chris Senano, chris Senano is MD Telecom and he's also a believer in startups. Okay, and at that time you know you are?
Speaker 1:Was this before Mugukubati or?
Speaker 2:No, it was.
Speaker 1:Oh okay, mugukubati was CEO, mugukubati was, but no yeah, Mugukubati was.
Speaker 2:I don't know how old the structure of Telekom. It's a government company.
Speaker 2:But a piece was there and he used to run his own company called BlackRock, and so during the classes of Strathmore he had a very interesting course where I come visit your business, you come visit my business, then I tell you my, you tell your story and say tell your challenges. And so one of my challenges we are looking for more and more investors. And one guy there I used to know a lady there called Jackie connected me to Chris. There we went. I remember Chris gave us an appointment on Saturday and there we went in shirts. He was just there. He actually was wearing a shirt. Do you know how many startups were ahead of us? Like 10 startups ahead of us that morning waiting to pitch to Chris. So we got the chance to pitch to Chris and Chris listened to us. He was like how much are you making?
Speaker 2:Like ah, we're charging 20, bob. Hey, how much are you making? Like? Ah, like 50K Per day or per month? Per month, it was literally nothing. Yeah, like no, no, no, no. Go rethink your business model. Once you have a good business model, come back. And that was it. So we went and rethought the model and changed the model a bit to a subscription and transactional so that at least we grow our there's enough cash flow. Yes, we get some cash flows. And when we came back and Chris and anyway, a lot of investors are numbers people yes, he had accurate numbers Last time you came here, you're 50K. Now you are at 200. So that's progress. And anyway, to cut the long story short, that's when he decided to invest in Presta. And from there, what happened? So we decided, okay, fine, If you invested in us, we'll give you also the chairman of the board. And it has been a journey since then.
Speaker 1:So you invested a substantial amount of money.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes, to be a chairman of the board of Presta.
Speaker 1:Yes, you must have. You know and also you own quite an amount of shares right, yeah.
Speaker 2:So what we did when we were forming Presta, and also an advice to anyone building a company, is don't want to own everything. You might be owning everything of nothing. You'll be owning everything of nothing. So allocate yourself, leave some shares outside for. The investment, future investments.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So it's good actually having this connection because, um, I mean, you are the person who actually got like a local investor, to just say the least. Angel, it's an angel investor right?
Speaker 2:no, angel investor is like that you. He believes in you even before anyone else else believes in you.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, which is a good thing, and I think it's quite encouraging. And I would love to know you know, if you don't mind like, how does that work when other investors come in or when you grow? Yeah, is it a challenge? Is it much easier? What is that? Because nowadays, nowadays, people getting screwed left, right and center by investors, people are starting to shy away from investment altogether, which I think maybe we need to refine the model.
Speaker 2:But since you have gone through the process, you see, at the end of the day, you know, lack of money is also very good you know lack of money is also very good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, when you have money and a lot of it is your problems you don't think, you know, you can't do anything. If I want to go to Mombasa, maldives, if I want to hire the best engineers, I go poach from Safaricom, I go poach from Google. You bring them to one space. But you see, for us the kind of investment we are looking for was not a lot of money. We have this mantra that money is not the thing that transforms companies. Your biggest investor is actually your customer, that customer of yours. That is your biggest investor. So, at the end of the day, every time we were raising money, it was purely for one thing.
Speaker 1:To reach more customers and make more customers more satisfied.
Speaker 2:But we're not getting money to get paid ourselves, and that has always been our principle. We don't go for huge investments. We've seen a lot of startups crumble because you see you get a lot of money and that a lot of money comes with strings. It comes with a lot of strings that you don't you know. Anyone who gives you money has interest, of course, at the end of the day. So either his interest is to exit at some point.
Speaker 1:And some of that money doesn't get into your account.
Speaker 2:Of course, not all of it is pushed into your account immediately. A lot of it is signing that you can access up to one million dollars per year, but in real sense what you get is money in bits and you see. At the end of the day, the only thing is there has to be synergy. At the end of the day, you have to remember that it is your customer that will help you grow, For sure. Yeah, it is not your.
Speaker 1:Investor. Investor has invested in like 100 companies all over the world. Yeah, it is not your Investor. Investor has invested in like 100 companies all over the world.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, that's very, very important to share.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And in this case, you have seen some substantial growth with your company. Yes, does it bring some good energy to your team to see that, okay, these guys, they are an angel investor. The dream is still really, you know, fresh for the whole team and you are growing, however slow but steadily, you're growing. When you acquire more new employees you have with growth, does it become a challenge for new employees not to understand why you started this company?
Speaker 2:That's a very interesting question Because, you know, the one thing that I've seen with a lot of companies, especially young companies, is you having proper organizational structures, or what you call corporate governance. And that has been a key turning point for Presta, because you can imagine you run a company that no one questions. You have no one who questions you. But now when you form a, what do you call it? Like a company structure or like someone who answers to that, every quarter there is a board meeting and during this board meeting, it is purely to demonstrate accountability, accountability that we give you. X.
Speaker 1:Or we approved X.
Speaker 2:What is the impact? Show us the Y, and that's a big thing, because you can't be a master of everything. You can't be a master of everything For me and for us. For example, for me and Dugan, we realized both of us had engineering background and engineering alone doesn't sell anything. So after some time I realized now I have to figure out the commercial bit of this business. And now him, he focuses on the technical, and that's how we are able to have a very good synergy that for me, I'm the guy who is outside there pushing the business, the business out there, and you have to recruit and and, and one of the things that, to answer your question, is one of the advice that we got from the board is sometimes you have to hire people, pay them more than you're earning.
Speaker 1:That's very interesting. Pay them more than what you earn Because they know what you don't and they will bring more value to the company than you are bringing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and even for Presta, we, as part of our journey, we at some point we had to do that. We had to like, find someone who had access to the circle market you get and then brought them, brought them in, and so to bring him in. Of course, he's already working in somewhere that he's earning very well, true, he's already working in somewhere that he's earning very well, true, true.
Speaker 2:So other than just the vision you have to pay him something. That is, you know you have an employee who you're paying higher than yourself and you're the one who is approving that payroll. Yeah.
Speaker 1:He looks like that. You looked at that. Check yeah.
Speaker 2:And you are thinking twice.
Speaker 1:Who is who in this company. But when you remember the value that this guy will bring, you're like, okay, I mean, it's about the value. So I think that was something else for the employees that you need to really build your value. Yes, to some extent that value is irresistible in terms of how companies are willing to pay, and this reminds me the Netflix job that was going around for almost a million dollars Half a year and everyone was like what's that? And they were looking for a Java, like serious Java engineer, a couple of experiences, and also there's some specific things that he's supposed to know. And you know, most guys actually give up on the back end.
Speaker 2:JVM staff.
Speaker 1:For obvious reasons, one wants to debug throughout the night and the weeks, but ideally it pays off over time because, if you even think about the banking system, most of them are legacy products which runs on these languages. For those who are doing engineering, those who want to pursue engineering, it pays off to understand deeper.
Speaker 1:The deep, yeah, so that's interesting to see. And, of course, I know a couple of guys who really make a lot of money within a short time because they know what they're doing, correct. I've been sharing this in the community, though, so I'm like, okay, that's interesting. So you hire this guy who brings in the circle market. Does he bring the value?
Speaker 2:He's still a part of the team to date, so he's good at what he does. Good at what he does. But then you see, there's a lot of hypothesis that any entrepreneurship and also us, we went on there. We went to the circle market thinking that it is a touch and go and only to realize that circle market operates in a very slow fashion. They are never in a rush. The whole idea is it's about pulling resources together. So it is literally the decision making is multiple people. Yeah, so just that you want to aggressively market and you wonder why are they not closing? So you have to have a lot of patience. You have to have a lot of patience. Of course, by then we started as a very simple product, a product that can give loans, short-term loans. So someone goes to his phone or the USSD dials, say one month. So we sold to Saco 1, Saco 2, Saco 3.
Speaker 1:Which means you label that Saco to that brand and then the end user doesn't know.
Speaker 2:Actually what happened behind the scene, but that's pressed up.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes, in fact it is fully white labeled. If it is Ketepa, for example, is one of our clients, it's Ketepa. We went to the pilot circle, we went to Britam, we went to ICA. We managed to convince so many circles, to small employee-based circles, to join the platform. And then we realized, oh, this, then everyone in the technology space, all our competitors, just focus on one thing Very co-banking. So what most people refer like the back office solutions. And that's when we decided, okay, why can't we be innovative? A lot of circles today, 90% of circles, or even 99. If I went alone, I have to go for a fall Somewhere. Sure, sure, phys go for a form.
Speaker 2:Somewhere Sure sure, physically, physically, sign that form. And Tsako is about guarantors, so I have to find my guarantors Physically, physically, let them sign, let them sign, let them sign and remember during COVID, now paper and exchanging contacts became something that is not right it was illegal.
Speaker 1:actually, it was illegal. They were arrested for it.
Speaker 2:And the best the SACOs will offer was you write an email, write an email here and there. And so what we did? We created an innovation, and this innovation was that you could digitally apply for this loan, seek a guarantor, digitally. So if I want Mike to guarantee me, I just search him from my phone book. Mike receives an SMS and in that SMS we created what we call an e-signature or an e-form. So the same circle form that you're signing today is the same form that you'll get. So that SMS has a link and that link, when you click on it, opens the same loan application form, only that now you don't need to fill anything. All you need to do is just to encrypt all your signature. And once you sign, you can be in Mombasa, I can be in Eldoret, I can be in whatever and whatever, and I'm good to go and I do my signatures and I'm done so.
Speaker 2:And we started selling that particular product to the big circles out there and we managed to get some. But, as I told you, that was one of the biggest lessons that we learned that circles don't move with anxiety that fast. You know there's no circle, you go and they're like that's a bad product, this is a wow, this is best.
Speaker 1:It will save us a lot of hours.
Speaker 2:Save us a lot. But you now moving from that story to closing the deal it might take.
Speaker 1:How long has it been? Eight months, eight months, eight months to a year. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So it is one of the biggest learnings that we learned. And anyway, to date, we still have a couple of circles. We've done very serious partnerships with a lot of co-banking providers and we are launching to more and more circles. Very nice, there's a circle in Gong Road. They are called Wanahanga Circle. This is the circle for the meteorological department. I remember this is a very good client of ours because we started very small with that technology. Today they are not doing any paper anymore. Oh nice, so all loan applications are digitally done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you remind me when I was still at the university with Banta, when we were looking for more projects we went to Meteorological Center and said you know, guys, we had visited Netherlands and we saw one of the biggest solutions that you could provide is weather, and it was very important for the farmers because, you see, now you can tell if it will rain. Should I plow my land using tractors? Should I add some fertilizer? See, that information is very, very important. So he said look for us, we may not go. We don't know any one organization for the farmers. Neighboring is a meteorological center, a quarter actually. So why don't we go and actually help them digitize and come up with a weather app that is just Kenya? Yeah, oh, my goodness, the old guys there, I don't know if they're still old. He was so excited and they said this is Actually something you have been looking for, but there's a meeting coming up where we'll go and discuss these issues.
Speaker 1:It will be one of our agenda and after that meeting we'll get in touch with you. Guys, Do you have your CVs with you? Do you have your business cards? Please leave them with our secretary at the door. We'll call you Guess what. Several months down the line, you saw the tender getting floated with the specifics of what we pitched yes, and the rest is history. So, guys, the guys who are in charge of this, you know department and organizations.
Speaker 1:And I'm happy to hear that you guys actually are helping them digitize the circle. Yeah, it's one win story that I think let's be more accommodativeize the circle. It's one win story that I think let's be more accommodative of the innovation. It will create more jobs.
Speaker 1:Because, I also realized that project was given to one of the relatives, never materialized really well because they didn't really own it. But you see, when Tom or someone, or Kamau or Njoroge creates a solution, they can actually create an employment that actually employs not only your cousin, not only your nephew, not only your brother or your sister, but it can create more opportunity for everyone. Correct, fairly Correct. So that's something I thought I should share along the way. Right, so that's something I thought I should share.
Speaker 1:But, tom, when it comes to circles and you know, digitizing the processes, data handling and all that, you know, there's a lot about data protection and all that, yeah, and I know for sure, when you're handling loans and you know people from the circle, there's a lot of data flowing around, correct. How are you guys managing that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so one is you have to comply to the Kenya Data Protection Laws, kenya Data Protection Act, which we've already done that as a data processor and as a data controller, but the actual controller is actually the circle. So the thing is, at the end of the day, I love a philosophy that Google has, and that philosophy says that don't be evil.
Speaker 1:I think they took that philosophy back some few years ago, but it's a good philosophy.
Speaker 2:So at the end of the day, the point is you. You know all these circles and trust you with their information. So at the end of the day, you have to make sure that you're integral enough to ensure that you can get rich quickly. You can deposit 5 million in your account, no one will notice, but the reality is, at some point someone will see. And you know, a good name is better than a good check.
Speaker 1:Even the Bible says something about a good name. The Christians and the people who read the Bible and internalize it, they know what a good name is. They say it's better than a fine wine or something, but it's in the Bible somewhere. So this is something, actually, that has been there for a long, long time, and it's wisdom that you can share.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but anyway, at the end of the day, you know, the biggest risk is the biggest risk to any of these opportunities or threats is actually your employees.
Speaker 1:I asked you the guys who join you now they don't really even understand. Some guys join and as the team grows, sometimes there's some oversight, yes, and they don't know why you're doing this For you. You're just trying to solve a problem that exists and actually that the customer sees the ball you need Correct. Someone would be coming for the check. They're like you know what? I'm broke this month.
Speaker 2:And you see. So one of the things that we try and do, of course, you have to make sure that you identify all your threats and mitigate those threats and if you've seen, a lot of circles are hacked by the way and no one sees and most of the time, yeah, 90 of the time it is a developer that used to work for organization x. Yes, and they knew someone at that circle. And then they leave the deal.
Speaker 2:They do the deal there and say, ah, we can, for every 10 000 that is withdrawn, let's put 100 shillings, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then, because it's small, small monies, yeah it was to a lot of by the time the circle is realizing they have lost 15 million and by the time they investigate. So at the end of the day, you have to put in a lot of these measures, Like for us. What we do is the way we are integrating with Safari or this busman requires you to have certain keys, and so what we do for us is those keys are encrypted, so no one, including us, the founders, know what the key is. So it is a circle that knows that this is the password that they put At the database level. It's just an encrypted key. So at the point of transacting, that's when it is decrypted and sent. I've talked too much Dragoon, but the idea is you just make sure that the system is secure.
Speaker 2:The system is secure. You cannot be 100%, but those measures that you put make sure that they are safe and secure. And anyway, let me tell you where you are Handling money, you will see the craziest of people. Money is tempting, money is very tempting. Forget even us as a service provider, even the officials of the circle. Someone is a treasurer there, someone is whatever Chairman, chairman and the kind of deeds that they do. Your left one ring what? Or you know someone registers, like a phone number. That phone number takes a loan. So you see, at the end of the day, you have to just put in a lot of controls, controls, controls. And we've learned, you know, experience teaches you.
Speaker 1:Have you paid the money that you didn't lose yourself to these guys?
Speaker 2:Have we paid money?
Speaker 1:Like someone you know did these guys have you paid money. Like someone you know did some monkey business. And then, of course, they said you know, presta is the system that is handling this money. You have to pay this money.
Speaker 2:No, no, no. But you see, at the end of the day there is investigation that has to happen.
Speaker 2:And now when we realize that someone had too much rights so he put in his sister, his brother, his cousin and all of them took money. So when you realize such kind of it was genuine because he was an official of the circle. But now what you put in is a lot of measures. Now, even if you are an official, you have to have a maker and a checker so that you can't have a maker and a checker, so that you can't have too much power by yourself. So, yes, there are a lot of learnings. You have to work with the client. At the end of the day, customer obsession, as Jeff Bezos says, you have to be very obsessed with what the customer is facing at that particular point. Don't solve what you think. And anyway, any tech company who has learned this the hard way they think that they know.
Speaker 1:You don't know.
Speaker 2:You keep learning you don't know, go see what your customer is facing, and once you see what your customer is facing, and once you see what your customer is facing, now invest in those particular areas and anyway it's a learning jump.
Speaker 1:So this actually leads me to ask something have you guys ever used this data to make financial decisions for either the customer or the circles?
Speaker 2:now that you have access to all this data, yeah, so what we do is we're able to advise the circle. For example, like our circle clients, we have microfinance clients, so we're able to tell them on certain trends, we're able to advise them on which products actually are going. Yeah, why don't create a seven-day product or don't create a one-month product? Well, your client only needs a one-month or, sorry, a seven-days loan, and some products come from a lot of experience. So you'll find that you have a circle that has some business and business people. All they are looking for is money today and then they sort it at the end of the day.
Speaker 2:So money today, and then they sort it at the end of the day. So money in the morning, sort it at the end of the day, but you find the organization. Since they don't have data, they have created products that don't really work for them. So once you have yes, we normally advise our clients from the data that we've learned, or the data that we've seen from the system. We now use it to advise the client. Who are your best performing clients? Give them discounts, it's like those.
Speaker 1:So in these discussions, has it ever benefited the end user, which is now, or is it always, your client? But the person who actually is the end user, who is the customer of your customer, never gets to benefit, even how his data is used.
Speaker 2:Actually, at the end of the day, the customer or the member of the circle is actually the person you're solving the problem, for the circle is just a partner to help you solve that particular problem, because at the end of the day, for example, if you are to create a product, that product has to serve that particular customer. So even for our e-learning platform, we have gone through a lot of iterations just by listening to the customer, because initially we started with a USSD process Someone applies. But when you listen to the customer we realize that they want a very smooth process and anyway, at the end of the day, to answer your question is, at the end of the day, you have to position the product to serve the customer.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's very interesting because my next question will be around the platform itself. Has it ever been hacked?
Speaker 2:So, you see, hacking is a very big word. So you see, hacking is a very big word and a lot of even the circles don't really understand what hacking is. You know, hacking is meaning that you've intruded the system and diverted money here and there. If you look at how we are doing our security, we host with the best technology providers or cloud service providers that have put in resources and security measures to make sure that the platform is safe. So we will not say that we've really been hacked.
Speaker 2:What we've experienced before is people misusing their rights. Okay, I see, people problem, it's a, it's a personal problem, it's a personal problem. But, all in all, uh, we have a team that continuously ensures that our systems are safe. Yeah, so they we. At the end of the day, it's called a resilient being cyber resilient. Yeah, that you are continuously identifying threats, yeah, and mitigating those particular threats. It's called resilient being cyber resilient that you are continuously identifying threats and mitigating those particular threats. And, as I told you, anytime you handle money and, for example, I can say, like last year, we did disbursement, loan disbursement of close to 2 billion Among all the lenders combined. Yes, so you see, it's very easy to miss 20 million.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because it's a lot of transactions people applying loan, paying applying loan so you have to be very keen in terms of security measures, true, true?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so Tob. Yes, there's a time we started some hospitality business. I don't know if it's you or your partner, but I saw it actually and actually Marky created it very aggressively. Yes, Tell me about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so anyway. So my wife, yeah, happens to love hospitality. Okay, okay, yeah, so, and so I remember us visiting the coast region at some point. Then we were like, how much money are we paying these guys? So we started our own the B&Bs and we did a couple of them and to date we still own and run a couple of B&Bs. And we did a couple of them and to date we still own a couple of BNBs, own and run a couple of BNBs business. So I'll say it is another side of business that I am invested in, but mainly run by your partner, my partner, because you saw it somewhere.
Speaker 1:Yes, you actually pushed it in a couple of your platforms and it happened to my friends.
Speaker 2:I remember pushing to a couple of friends I like this.
Speaker 1:I thought even about it, by the way, and also I invested in this platform.
Speaker 2:I like it because it is disrupting the traditional hotel business, Because you realize that most of the people, when you travel, most of the time you want to get the same home experience that you had back when you come from. So it's another business idea, business opportunity that we tried and yeah it's still going to the date. I think we have a couple of them running.
Speaker 1:Do you think if someone does the same experience in Africa they are up, not?
Speaker 2:there.
Speaker 1:Do you think it will be different in terms of how they look, feel?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you realize that even now that I am in that space, you'll find that most of the business you'll get is actually by referral. Yes, yes. So unlike the West, where people don't talk, they're not so social, they're not so social In Africa it is. I know, mike I don't know how to translate that I have a house in Meru, so the BNB style is such that you have to go to BNB, find a house there and then search. But here we want to recommend to get referrals here. So, yes, there's a big opportunity in that space. And you've seen the threats that have happened this year when people are being hacked. And you realize, yes, the referral process works very well, but it still lacks the authenticity of trusting who is, you know, like right now you just get a phone call.
Speaker 1:Hey, I'm on a mic.
Speaker 2:You know and you don't even know who that person is. So at the end of the day, there's an opportunity, especially for anyone who wants to get into that space to do things like verification. Yeah that by the time I'm coming I have a profile that has been scored and said that this guy one is good, has been referred by one, two, three Basically mimic how we do things in Africa, not how we do things the BNB style or the bookingscom style.
Speaker 1:And even this goes to dating, now that you know life is becoming busy. Yes, yeah, there's a friend of mine who is building something, but when he launches, you'll see it. The dating space. Yeah, okay, so he started off Tinder. Yeah, I like his. I've seen the background of the solution and I like it. Actually, if it gets to launch, it will be a game changer.
Speaker 2:I think there's a lot of opportunities in Africa. Yeah a lot.
Speaker 1:A lot.
Speaker 2:Even like, for example, our products. We've gotten a lot of inquiries beyond Kenya, so we are currently doing implementation in Zambia oh nice, yes, and also in Botswana. There's also Asako in Botswana. Okay so have you launched there or just trying to do the business? No, we are doing the implementation, we're doing implementation.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you're just based in.
Speaker 2:Kenya for now. Yeah, we're based in Kenya. It's basically a client that got SOAS online acquired, so why not? Why not? So right now we are doing integration with a bank in Zambia. So the thing is, I remember one of the big guys telling me stop thinking too small. As Kenyan entrepreneurs, we think too small instead of asking ourselves what is the addressable market, what is the addressable market in? Forget Kenya. What is the addressable market in the world?
Speaker 1:Even in the world. In the world, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I've seen India building starting to compete with the US. Yes, yes, and they are doing very, very amazing products at half the cost, for sure. Like we are partners with a company called Zoho. Yeah, I know Zoho. Yeah, so Zoho is an Indian-based company. We started called Zoho. Yeah, I know Zoho. Yeah, so Zoho is an Indian-based company. We started using Zoho during this journey of entrepreneurship. At some point we wanted an invoicing solution and as I was Googling, I found Zoho, and from there I found I wanted a very cheap accounting. You know that time you're running a startup, yeah, you want something affordable. You want something that is free.
Speaker 1:Not even affordable.
Speaker 2:By the time you start making money, you are paid, and Zoho walked the journey with us and at some point we thought, yeah, we can also run this. We can also consult this, as we can also consult to companies that need this kind of solutions, like, for example, the Saco clients that take our product for loan management. They still need an email, they still need an office solution, they still need a CRM, for example, they still need a help desk solution. So that's where we decided we signed a partnership agreement with Zorro and told them that we can help you push this thing amongst our clients.
Speaker 1:Oh, so it's more of a partnership.
Speaker 2:Yes, a partnership agreement, and we sell, we augment Presta together with all these products, because we want our clients to know us as a solution provider, a person who solves my problems, one-stop shop, a one-stop shop to solve my problems. So and we've done that for a couple of years and we still are as a partner, until even they came by the time we were signing partnerships, they were not in Kenya.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, now they've set up shop in Westland and now we are even making the sales process very easy and straightforward now that you are talking about collaboration, you use a lot of Africa Stalking APIs, which one do you use.
Speaker 2:Please tell us about them so remember, africa Stalking is an interesting journey because I started using Africa Stalking in a school project and at that time we wanted to build a product that can send SMS. Do you remember when you were doing projects? So one of the requirements of my project was to send SMS. So I googled. I found Africa Stalking. Then we started using Africa Stalking and we started using Africa is Talking, and we've continuously since 2010. Yes, yeah, since 2012. I know 2012 thereabouts. We've continuously used Africa is Talking.
Speaker 2:We started with SMS, went to voice for because we run a call center where people call us, that is actually using Africa Stalking APIs Nice. Now we went to USSD. Now we started with shared USSD. Now you have dedicated. Now we have dedicated USSD Very nice. So Africa Stalking has been a good partner. Even one thing I've liked is, over time, they have really stabilized. You know there's a lady called Mary Claire, mc. Mary Claire, you call her MC. I knew her a couple of years ago and she takes my phone at Sunday, on Sunday. That tells you how much dedication she has. Shout out to Mary Claire. Shout out to her. Yeah, she's a very good.
Speaker 1:I don't know what she does right now A big customer experience yeah.
Speaker 2:But she's very good and anyway, we've collaborated with Africa Stocking. Now we are going to Malawi. We still propose to the client to use Africa Stocking APIs. So, africa, anyway, as you rightly said, you have to collaborate. Yeah, you find a problem. Africa Stocking solves it, don't reinvent it. Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1:So actually yeah, this was actually off the mic where I was having a side chat like how African companies need to rethink in terms of how do you work together, because at the end of the day, you know you don't have all the time and resources to do everything.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And even if you did everything, you would not do it as perfect as you know someone who does their day to day day to day.
Speaker 1:So collaboration is the key and the beauty of Africa's Talking, as you have heard, is that if you are scaling throughout Africa, it's a good partner. And, of course, actually since last year, we are more focused on our customers and how can they scale? What do they need? Also introducing them to some of our clients, because you see, serving Africa-wide, you get different clients who have different needs, but some of your other customers actually provide those needs. A good example is payment. We used to offer payments and we eventually stopped, but now we recommend some of our payment customers to the people who are looking for payment solutions, and this is good we have been working telecos across Africa payment customer to the people who are looking for payment solution.
Speaker 1:Yes, and this is good. We have been working in telcos across Africa doing some ABUs with them, so in that collaboration I actually find a lot of growth in it both ways, for both someone who is giving a gig and the gig that we're giving them. So it's a way to go. It's the future Before we leave the gig that we're giving them. So it's a way to go. It's a future Before we leave the dating that I mentioned.
Speaker 1:I had a question around it how has been your dating life as a tech bro? You know you're the guy who could get into the. I remember during our school days get into your house at 6. You leave there at 7.30 going to class. Yeah, when we have a Harley class, when we have a, get into your house at 6. You leave there at 7 that you go into class. When you have a early class you'll see you at 11. How has it been your dating? Because now I know you're married, you have a family. How was that journey?
Speaker 2:so you want the dating side, the dating side of the story. Yes, yes you know, most tech bros are suffering, and then it's very hard to find of the story yes, yes, no, it almost takes bros a suffering, yeah, yeah. And then it's very hard to find a spouse that actually understand their your entrepreneurship journey. They don't understand why you should not get a job.
Speaker 1:And leave the house at eight and come back at seven.
Speaker 2:No seven.
Speaker 1:What do you mean? Midnight, midnight, drunk A bit drunk.
Speaker 2:No, at times it's work Okay, at times it's work. At times we, you know, sometimes we have a client that has to be delivered, so we'll sleep in the office, okay, transnight, transnight by the time we're leaving, that's done. Okay, transnight, transnight by the time we are leaving, that's done. So the dating journey has been. You have to, you know, find so many people by the time you settle to one, but yeah, so you have to. I will say that my journey has been good. I have a very supportive partner. We do a lot of businesses together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're spoken like a married man, but Rick on the other side you know, in any good thing in that iceberg you don't see what is under.
Speaker 1:Me. Even I was not interested in marriage. Marriage has its own story. We'll talk maybe 10 years later. I wanted maybe before, because you see there's that journey where now you're saying you're looking for different partners Correct, this doesn't work. This one wants this that you can provide, or maybe they want this kind of person. You are not that person. So how was that? Because you see, there's so many, as I said, guys who want to pursue even engineering. In general, it's time consuming. Sometimes you need some focus. Sometimes you know there is something you need to work on you don't need, you don't have much time on your hands. So I don't know, for you was it easy. Maybe you met 2-3 people. The 4th one was the right one.
Speaker 2:It was difficult it was difficult because you have to you have to kiss so many frogs, as they say, before you actually find the right frog. Yes, so you still find the frog and at the end of the day there is no. You realize that you leave this one for this one. The mistake you found here, you find another one here, so at the end of the day, dating has its own experience.
Speaker 2:So my advice would be you have to make a decision. At the end of the day. There is no perfect person, you just have to take it. And there's no perfect person, you just have to take it and you have to take it and you have to take it. You have to take it as you go. I don't know what your experience is.
Speaker 1:Mine. I'll share one day. I'll share one day. But it was. I mean it is, I'll not say more or less the same, but it was a bit because, for me, I set out my mind long time ago on what I want, how I want it, and Did you find it, of course? Of course, after how many tries? Anything that you are you're looking for, you'll find it. After how many tries? Just two or three?
Speaker 2:Yeah, two or three. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But of course there are those who just say, okay, this is not it. Yeah even before it starts, you're like okay If I give, like the Gen Z's are saying nowadays.
Speaker 1:So, please, as we come to close, what is your parting? Shots for the guys who are, you know, starting up, you know, starting their day? Shots for the guys who are starting their day, because there are guys who maybe just registered a company a few minutes ago and they're like you know, I'm going to make billions, I'm going to make billions. So what do you have to say to that person?
Speaker 2:So my parting shot is there is a lot of opportunities in this country. One of the things that you need to explore or you need to do is to diversify, or basically diversify your networks. At the end of the day, it's not only about products. Even if you have the best product in the world, it has to be sold to someone, and that element of selling you have to figure out how to do it. So my parting shot to you is grow your networks and expand. That is how you expand your business.
Speaker 1:Very nice, very nice. And maybe talk to us, listen to us for subscription, like and whatever. Yeah, directly to them, please. And maybe talk to us, listen to us for subscription, like and whatever, and you know, yeah, directly to them, please. And they also talk a bit about Presta for those who don't know about Presta. Yeah, yes.
Speaker 2:So at Presta, we are revolutionizing the lending space. We want to disrupt this how lending is done in this market, and that is exactly what we do. We work with a lot of microfinance. We work with a lot of circles. That is our core business. I'm glad to be part of this webinar and I will encourage you to subscribe and hit that like button. Podcast. Thank you so much, tom. I will encourage you to subscribe and hit that like button Podcast Podcast.
Speaker 1:Podcast. Thank you so much, tom, and we're really honored for you to grace this podcast. We're trying to tell authentic African stories. You have just started and we are growing as a big world, and thank you for everyone who have found our stories really educative. You have shared a cup of wisdom and you have seen it good to subscribe. We really appreciate um, even some of them commenting, uh, giving feedback, recommending tools.
Speaker 1:I remember when we started with one mic uh, my, my, my, my producer, videographer, photographer, everything is behind this camera. And here we are today and I love it. But we made it our habit to close with African proverb, and we borrowed this from Spice FM, where we have Mdu, and these are the guys who I like listening to. It's a sober conversation most of the time, and today's proverb will come from Swahili Tumia uli cho uli, tumia cho kale. What this proverb means in English is that use what you have put together or hand in early days, so early days could be today for you. So whatever you learn today is an investment to your future. So for this and many more episodes, subscribe to our YouTube channel. Also, we are in all podcasts across the spectrum, that is, apple Podcasts, spotify Podcasts, google Podcasts, amazon Music, hi-hat Radio and many other podcasts. Whichever is your favorite, please tune in and show some love. Until next time, I'm Michael Kimathi and this is Couch to See of Africa's Talking in collaboration with the Buckmasters. See you.
