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Impact Masters Podcast
#52 Transforming Marine Economies: Dr. Mathew Egessa's Journey
Dive into the remarkable journey of Dr. Mthew Egessa, whose path from computer science to blue economy innovation demonstrates the transformative power of purpose-driven technology. Growing up in Western Kenya and navigating his way through the academic world, Mathew's story isn't just about personal achievement—it's a testament to how passion and persistence can create meaningful change in unexpected places.
This conversation explores how Mathew's formative experiences shaped his approach to innovation. From his days teaching in a resource-constrained village school to his time at the prestigious University of Nairobi School of Computing, each chapter of his life contributed to a unique perspective on technology's role in society. Particularly moving is his account of bringing drama and competitive opportunities to underserved students, witnessing firsthand how access and exposure can transform self-belief.
Mathew's work at the Technical University of Mombasa, where he now serves as chairperson of the Management Science Department and leads the Blue Economy Innovation Hub (BayHub), represents a fascinating intersection of academic research and practical innovation. His creation of Vua Solutions, a fintech platform helping small-scale fishers build financial resilience against seasonal income fluctuations, showcases the profound impact simple technologies can have on vulnerable communities.
What makes this episode particularly enlightening is Mathew's nuanced understanding of sustainable development. Rather than pursuing technological innovation or profit maximization alone, his work emphasizes environmental sustainability, financial inclusion, and community empowerment. As he explains the challenges and opportunities within Kenya's blue economy—from sustainable fishing practices to coastal tourism and environmental conservation—listeners gain valuable insights into how contextually appropriate solutions can address complex societal challenges.
Whether you're interested in technology, social entrepreneurship, or sustainable development, Mathew's thoughtful approach to bridging academic knowledge with real-world impact offers inspiration and practical wisdom. Listen now to discover how innovation with purpose can create ripples of positive change across communities.
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🎤 Guest: Dr. Mathew Egessa
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yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, it's another beautiful day. Welcome once again. This is africa's talking podcast, in collaboration with Impact Masters Podcasts, coming to you live and direct from Pwani. Yes, I'm your host, michael Kimathi, if you want MK. And today we have an amazing man Not only a man, but a doctor by professional. And one of the amazing thing about course, is that every time I'm here and meet interesting people, interesting places, africa's talking provides you SSD airtime, sms, data bundle, voice solution, api's for developers. Africa Stalking empowers business across Africa. You can find AfricaStalkingcom to access all these products. And today, once again, we're covering Africa Movers and Shakers in Tech and, in an amazing turn of events, we met this gentleman sometime back in 2014, back at the University of Nairobi. His story is very fascinating.
Speaker 2:Matthew Ogesa is a lecturer of business information systems with a research interest in social innovations in the blue economy domain. He's a chairperson of management science department at the Technical University of Mombasa. He also leads the Blue Economy domain. He's the chairperson of Management Science Department at the Technical University of Mombasa. He also leads the Blue Economy Innovation Hub, bay Hub. Based at the School of Business, the Bay Hub is a platform for multidisciplinary and participatory action research anchored on the principles of human-centered design and quadri-elixir approach to co-create solutions to real societal challenges as a result of learnings during community interaction. While at BayHub, he co-founded Vua Solutions.
Speaker 2:Vua Solutions is a fintech startup that seeks to strengthen the resilience of fishing communities and marine biodiversity in relation to climate change as an income-smoothing solution for small-scale fishers of fishing communities and marine biodiversity in relation to climate change Hazard and Income Smoothing Solution for small scale fishers. Ssfs Some new terminologies. Here I'm encountering Vue Solutions partners with off-takers who work in SSFs and facilitate tracking of payments, savings, stipend disbursement and loans. Use a bachelor's degree in computer science, a master's degree in business administration management information system and a doctor of philosophy degree in business information systems. How are you, matthew Aguesa?
Speaker 3:Fine, thank you, fine, thank you. It's good to be here.
Speaker 2:It's good to be here.
Speaker 2:And he's an alumni of the University of Nairobi and you know, for those who have been following me and some of the recordings, they might think I'm biased from my alma mater, but by coincidence I'll say I'll start with the guys who I know are movers and shakers. If you know the University of Nairobi, it's a quite diverse university and you know people joining the University of Nairobi from all over the world, not only in Kenya, but from all over the world and most of those people are doing some amazing, amazing projects, including the Karen Hospital. Right, if you know the Karen Hospital, some of the best doctors around, among as many other fields that in future we'll host. But how are you today?
Speaker 3:Fine, thank you, fine, thank you. It's good to have you.
Speaker 2:It's a pleasure. So that's just a profile that I've just read there, which I feel like this chief has given us like 0.0001 of who he is. But here at Impact Masters and Africa's Talking Podcast, you'll have to go all the way back because you believe a man's story can all be told without himself telling it. Please, where did it all start?
Speaker 3:Once again, thanks for having me here. Yeah, yeah. I am Matthew Egesa. Born and bred in Bungoma, which is in a former western province, and then did my primary there. Went to another town within Bungoma.
Speaker 2:What was the name of the town? Kimilili? Yes, I remember Kimilili from Kimilili.
Speaker 3:Sugar, sugar. No, no, it's Kimilili Friends School. Kamisinga, oh friends, because it's within Kimilili. Ah, okay so yeah, I was born in Bungoma a couple of years back. Yes, yes, in a family of is it seven? Eight? Because I have three brothers and three sisters. So my mom was a nurse, so I stayed in medical quarters in Bungoma.
Speaker 2:Okay, so they were doctors or nurse.
Speaker 3:My mom was a nurse. My dad stayed in medical quarters in Bungomo, so they were doctors or nurse.
Speaker 2:My mom was a nurse.
Speaker 3:My dad was a physiotherapist, but in most you'll find any man working. Whether you are a cleaner in a hospital or you're a telephone operator, people will be calling you doctor, but yeah.
Speaker 3:Even a janitor is a doctor, so long as you normally work in the hospital those days. I don't know if it's still the practice. So I went to Bungoma DEB where I did my primary from class one to six and then my mom retired, so that is when I shifted. I went to Kimilili it's called Kimilili RC Boys. I did my class seven and eight.
Speaker 2:How was that experience going to public school, studying there, and now that you're in the education field, comparing even now you have children and you see them go to cbc curriculum being a scholar and you know you also look at the both worlds. What is that experience for you when you just compare the two? And you know, because for me.
Speaker 3:I'll call it a very interesting experience and I don't know, maybe the families nowadays, quite a number of people those days, or quite a number of people who are we're calling them movers and shakers right now a good chunk of them went to public schools those days. Yes, yes, those days.
Speaker 3:And it was an interesting experience because, ideally, I guess it's what has shaped most of us into who we are. Because, at times, maybe right now. It should just also shift with the thing, because I look at the current caliber of students. Maybe not even primary and high school. I look at my students and I try to compare how it is we were as students and I see a huge gap the level of kujituma so to speak.
Speaker 3:I look at our days back at the university and now there seems to be some disconnect. Disconnect or some slight change, but public schools those days. It was an interesting experience. It brought quite a huge chunk of diversity so to speak and, yeah, it shaped.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I had, I could say, two experiences In primary. I went to two public schools, but one was in Bungoma. It was a bigger town at that time, but the shift between Bungoma and Kimilili, as I told you, I was in class 7 and 8. I now went to stay with my brother, who was a high school teacher. He's older than you, right? Yeah, way older. I'm the last one, you know, the last one in our, in our family. So my mom retired when I was in class six.
Speaker 2:Wow, so that so you're like your brother becomes your parent. Your parent, yes, so our.
Speaker 3:at that time there was a decision either I should go to a boarding school. At that time there was a decision Either I should go to a boarding school. But my brother was like no, let him just come to. I think he's gifted academically, even if so, the school compared to whatever Mungoma DB and Kimilili RC. At that time it seemed to be like you're going, it's kind of a downgrade. But my brother was really optimistic and he's one of the people who who really shaped who it is I am. So I went to now the Kimili RC, both of them public schools, but this is in a smaller town and there was a disconnect. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:So you move now to a school where it's now you've become like kind of king, quote, unquote, because in in a way you're at that time you're a lot gifted, so to speak. So it's in a school where it could be a privilege for people to put on, maybe shoes not maybe there is some small minority who maybe don't come to school.
Speaker 3:Now, I had a with shoes, so to speak. I had a deskmate in high school who used to make fun of me. You know he came from a school where it was punishable to now come to school with shoes. Oh, okay, fine, it was a joke, that really wasn't the case. But now he used to make a joke that you know you came from a school where it was now punishable to come with because you may make others feel out of place, so please don't come with shoes. But that really wasn't the case.
Speaker 2:But I think those things happen in some places, just to get people into uniform and stuff. And it's because some of the teachers or, you know, the school manager feels like you know, everyone should feel equal and you know why should you come with the?
Speaker 3:shoes.
Speaker 2:I remember about it, even me, you know. I moved from town to a village and I was so surprised that people go barefooted. I found it really interesting for me, so I stopped wearing shoes to school, uh. But also I realized there's a challenge because you know the stones and everything else um the thorns, so you have to deal with all these things, and alsoigas was a part of that problem. Yeah, so you've taken me back a bit. Yeah, so you finished the primary school. You performed really well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank God it was. I did quite. It was the first year. It was the first year that we had the five subs 500, yeah, yeah, so we were the first lot that we had, the five sub-teams 500, yeah, yeah, so we were the first lot of the team that had 500 marks. And the other bit, as I was saying, within the other school, you know, you come, I was almost in all co-curricular activities except football. Oh, wow.
Speaker 3:At least for that new school because we were in gymnastics, drama music festival and at that time you were also quite performing well in school. So those days you were having badges. Best students in a particular subject. Best students in a particular subject. So, at a point you're almost wearing all the seven badges at a particular point. So I really also didn't used to feel really good about that, because at times it's. At times I don't like the spotlight, so it's, but maybe it could work in the negative sense that it could make you almost.
Speaker 2:Single doubts, yeah or lacks in particular subjects work in the negative sense that it could make you almost a single doubts.
Speaker 3:Yeah, or or or or lacks in particular subjects, but I thank god I did pretty well. Yeah, though at that time I really wanted to go to stare boys, okay, but that time I got 419 marks and somehow I couldn't make the cut because that time the students I think either the last one from Bungoma that time was selected with 420.
Speaker 2:So you missed by one mark.
Speaker 3:So to speak. That is what I yeah, picking very few students. But in hindsight, looking at how everything panned out, I think things are just meant to happen the way they did.
Speaker 2:So where did you go?
Speaker 3:I went to French school Kamsinga.
Speaker 2:Now you're the last guest from France.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you talk to the Nandas and whatever.
Speaker 2:It's not out, but yeah.
Speaker 3:So it was a great school. It was within the same vicinity. I was walking now from home to high school.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, come to think about it, so you were Nanda's neighbor, literally.
Speaker 3:Not necessarily so for Nanda he came from. He's from Webue, close to Webue, so, which is a couple of kilometers away, but where my brother was. My brother was teaching at Moi Girls, kamsinga. Yeah. And then there is Friends School Kamsinga.
Speaker 2:They're neighboring yeah they're neighboring.
Speaker 3:One is a girls school another one is a boys school, but during holidays so even before I joined, while I was in class 7 and 8, I used to go there watch games. So it was so familiar to you it was very familiar to me by the time I was getting there. I kind of know all the a good chunk of the teachers and then my brother being a teacher, the place he was staying him was my girls come singer.
Speaker 3:There were two friends could come singer teachers there and then there was a gentleman from chesamisi, so that experience made me almost I was really young. But I'm staying with kind of bachelors who are from uni at that time, maybe three, four years from uni all of them. So it maybe matured slightly early because they're the people I was hanging out with, so it made me but it was a great experience.
Speaker 3:Even before I joined I was going to Friends school, kamsinga, the games and whatever, and I guess that's why I wanted maybe to go to Saray, which was slightly farther away, but even with the environment around, Kamsinga really molded us. It was a good chunk of even the very close friends I have from now are people we were with in high school.
Speaker 2:Very nice close friends I have from now. Are people we were with in high school very nice? Yes, this begs me to ask, like why does the girls they become singer? Girls does not perform as good as friends I, there could be a number of factors.
Speaker 3:yeah, how I look at it, at times passing in the kenyan sense needs some particular culture. And then also I'll call it the entry behavior, because you know some people normally say why does Alliance pass? So much compared to another school. But if the last person who was chosen to like, maybe Staray, the last one from Mungoma, was at 420. And then Kamsinga picked also some cream de la cream of western at that time, comparing to the other people who were picked to go to this other school.
Speaker 3:So the entry behaviour is slightly fine, it's one of the things that determines a lot. But other than that, there is also the culture of the space, the way maybe, like at your end, you go to Uchiromo. But other than that, there is also the culture of the space, the way maybe, like at your end, you go to Uchiromo. Just by being there, you're meeting some creme de la creme of particular places.
Speaker 3:And the confidence and all that because passing a time it's more of just believing in yourself and that outlook. So that is something that I think could be a contributing one of the contributing factors, because with time a good chunk passed. Even nowadays they pass, but within Kamsinga there was a culture that made you really believe in yourself. Or nothing. There was a cliche that like just by being here you're kind of assured of getting a B plus or a B On the lower side.
Speaker 3:So if you get anything above that, at least you've tried, that is your effort, and if you get anything lower than that, you've also really struggled to get that. It was an informal thing, like people you know know in the believing yourself. It's kind of like a factory. Yeah, you'll give in some raw material, a product will come out of it, and that product should, because the way you've just been conditioned yeah you're doing exams, the cuts, almost every other day so in in a week Monday, wednesday, friday you're doing exams.
Speaker 2:It's like exercise. Yeah, it's a mental exercise.
Speaker 3:And you'll know the outlook to exams won't be like. It's making you panic. You'll even go for exams without reading for them and you'll actually because like I was in the drama club. Yeah. The chair drama club and the training that you're doing. You're coming from Funky and on a Sunday and Monday in the morning.
Speaker 2:No the.
Speaker 3:Sunday at night you're having even a paper, Because even some day when you're, let's say, opening on opening day, the night when you get back to school you're having a paper and like the way the cuts were, I'm told, in other schools maybe the karts, it was just whatever it is, you'd learnt that term or something like that. Yeah.
Speaker 3:But in Kamsinga you start karts. After the first term you go for half-term break and when you come back you start karts. Yes, opening karts Opening karts. There's even some weird games around those opening karts, but after that you'll do k cuts your entire high school life till form four, because every other week you're having cuts.
Speaker 3:But the cut at form three, it's everything from form one. Every other time it's everything from form one. So it's ideally just you're made to, you're conditioned to to do exams, and so it doesn't like surprise you or something new so? I think that was one thing that and then there was some bit about discipline that guys had to have. So those are the things I think maybe made a difference between, as you say, maybe my girls come single could be the culture thing and maybe the entry behavior.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, given your first day at France, kamsinga, did you meet Haimba?
Speaker 3:So that time, as I told you, having been from within, I understood Kamsinga, I think, way better than the few people who were getting here, so I had. I didn't meet him because he had left like two years. Oh, okay, two years prior, cause I think he left in 99. Okay, but I was joining in 2002.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, so, so okay.
Speaker 3:So I didn't meet him.
Speaker 2:but you found his legacy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the legacy He'd preconditioned the system in a way that it was just to take. But, as you mentioned, maybe coming closer from there, I knew even which game to play, because we used to go play hockey when I was even still in primary. I'd go play hockey with guys, because quite a number of guys from Kimilili are really good with hockey, because in the school I was in, there is a school called Kimi Lili Boys. They used to play hockey on our pitch, the primary school pitch.
Speaker 3:So when I get to Kamsinga in as much as I was really good in drama the first year I went to play hockey- oh nice and I even went to go to Nationals, and by that when first year, fomo 1s are still teaming and all that I knew defending champions even if you fail at Zonals, you'll still have to go to Nationals to defend your beat. And the previous year they had won Nationals. So I knew if you're among the first FOMO 1s, somehow you'll make it to the national team. I wasn't the very best hockey player. I knew there were really good guys in FOMO 1, but that year they couldn't go to nationals. And I knew drama. The previous year they hadn't won the nationals. So if I needed a national ticket, this was it. Ah nice.
Speaker 2:And that's how we went. In form one, we went all the way to nationals, to nationals for hockey, but after that we used to have in-house drama.
Speaker 3:I was really good, so I was the best actor in drama, and now the teacher of drama sent me to drama and you had to be there.
Speaker 2:So, that's how I switched now, from two till the very end I was in drama and did you guys go to nationals?
Speaker 3:yeah, so from, yeah, so from second year till fourth year it was also national from from one to four, any national event, may it be okay, you are supposed to so at least.
Speaker 2:Yeah, four four, four, four, four months.
Speaker 3:So it just shifted now, so at least for For more.
Speaker 2:So it just shifted now. Fully to Drama and drama is interesting Because man I loved drama and for me it was a bit selfish. As a man, I wanted to see nice ladies and you know, the only place you can see nice ladies Is either music festival or drama. And yeah, I have my tales to tell we didn't go out to nationals but I have my taste if you're in high school, please, and the drama festivals is one of the things you can do by all means or music festival.
Speaker 2:Yes, If you're athletic I wasn't that athletic. As you can see, I wasn't that athletic Go for football, hockey or basketball. Basketball is not big. When it comes to athletics in Kenya, maybe running is big, football is big, hockey is big.
Speaker 3:Rugby is big, it depends. I also know quite a number of guys from high school who are doing quite up to nationals up to nationals, even some now getting a scholarship to go play basketball in the states or even nowadays KPA that guy is playing for even the basketball league in Kenya and even a good chunk went now to Strathmore.
Speaker 2:Oh nice.
Speaker 3:Because Strathmore was picking a good of the talent from the high school games and things like that. So for, like basketball rugby, they did quite a good scholarship for them.
Speaker 2:Maybe I spent so much time in the village secondary school that we associated basketball with. You know cool kids, it was even getting a jersey, nice shoes. It was really crazy. Even nice speech Crazy, until I joined another school, but that sounds interesting. So you're in Form 1 here. You know everyone, you feel familiar. You are going to nationals. You didn't really diverge from the economics, like you did not really lose focus. And this question actually I asked several times, because there are so many things you have done, matthew, which are very interesting.
Speaker 3:You asked that question and then it took me back to some FOMOAN. I don't know whether Pierre Nanda gave you the same, but it's a funny thing. From one term, one, as I told you, for us we started cuts from after first half term break. So you go for a couple of weeks, go for half term break. But when you come back.
Speaker 3:It is exam and, like for maths, it'll be your case CPE, but but without, without, without answer without ABCD. So it's you show your workings and whatever, and then from there you keep other than number lines.
Speaker 2:And I know actually because I also joined high school the same same time. Actually, interestingly, or I finished my KCP, Maybe I finished my KCP in 2002.
Speaker 3:You joined fromAN in 2002, right? Yes, so.
Speaker 2:I cleared, so maybe I joined in 2002. Now even I'm confused, but you joined FOMOAN two weeks later, or even one week. You go for midterm, so it's not like you're studying anything much, it's just you've joined you've settled in.
Speaker 3:It was just number lines, formats or just some definitions and things like that.
Speaker 2:Then you come and do an exam, that is, you have to write your answers, contemplate what those answers are. So what if you flop? Even if you flop it's when you're just starting. You've already joined the Kamusinga.
Speaker 3:So for us, I was position one that first time form one.
Speaker 3:But after that, till the very end, I was still a child Because there wasn't much. So it was just like for months you're for sure you know you're going to do your classes. Eight paper that you did, yes. The other beats they're just either some definitions here, some things there, so even replicating it's, it is just that. But now, after that it got crazy. And then for me some bit of turning point. So I was like either from position 1 I went to like 7 fine, I still kept around top 10 top 20.
Speaker 3:But now when I, after form one, I joined drama but drama is quite heavy for us, because there is a lot of now, the cramming, the scripts and whatever, and then trainings, you do till late. So, when guys go to sleep is when you go train till about either midnight or 11. So when guys go to sleep is when you go train till about either midnight or 11.
Speaker 3:And then in the morning you'll also over lunch hour break. You do some training before too. So mostly at times in class the fatigue or whatever you could yourself dosing or things like that.
Speaker 3:And then let's say you've gone for a funky and you come back you need to do the paper. So I dropped quite a bit the fast, the balancing and all, and then over Christmas holidays I'd lost all my books of one. So while traveling, my home is in Busia, so I was born and bred in Bungoma, went to school in Friends School, kamsinga, but my parents, our home, is in Busia, a place called Mundika.
Speaker 2:So schooling only in these, these other places because where your parents used to work.
Speaker 3:Yes, before mom retired. So after retiring she went back home. So, over holidays I could stay some bit with my brother and then go to Busia. So that time you have all your files, your notebooks and things like that, because you have to revise and what. But now, on my travel to Busia, in the swap between vehicles I lost the box that was holding all my Form 1 books, so by Form 2, I had to start now afresh in a way. So you're coming to exams.
Speaker 2:That must be traumatizing.
Speaker 3:So I had two reasons why I failed. But now to your dad to say why I couldn't say it was drama, that was that made me go back. So I was like you remember the books. I lost all the books I had to.
Speaker 2:I had to, but deep down, you know for sure deep down?
Speaker 3:for sure not like I would say. Drama was course, but at that time I hadn't gotten the balance.
Speaker 2:But after that, at least I got the hang of it. It was natural.
Speaker 3:Which part do you like acting in this drama? For me, I think there is a prof and I think also Prof Nanda talked about him Right now he's Dr Chetambe and I think also Prof Nanda talked about him Right now he's Dr Chetambe. He's a really great writer and he used to write narratives. He's really humorous and the way he composes his pieces.
Speaker 3:But I think he knew I had some gift in portraying two sides of emotions, so he could put me away a script that has a really either. It has both dimensions, a very happy side and a very sad side at the same time. So like while acting, if it's stage, you look at people with emotions in the crying bit, you could see some people shed tears on the other side and you're like those beats were quite captivating for me at least mostly on emotion side.
Speaker 3:If you could walk with emotion walk around emotions with people you know.
Speaker 2:I used to be a playwright story for another day.
Speaker 3:So I actually I get the picture.
Speaker 2:So even for solo verses so Because he gave me, I did lots of solo verses and his solo verses had those dimensions but we were also big on narratives, but now I was more of the support.
Speaker 3:There were guys who were just dancing. We had really great narrators. We were just giving them backup on the dancing beat.
Speaker 2:Man, that sounds like really really fun yeah yeah, and and why you never thought to make sense. Uh, maybe I want to do literature and sweet really far. And uh, you said, okay, I like zeros and ones more. What, what actually like when we're joining friends. I do made up your mind like you know what I'm doing this, just to like the way you do our B, like something you really want to pursue at the end, something you feel like you can do it confidently. But deep down, you know, maybe I'll do computer science at some point, or engineering, or electrical engineering or something.
Speaker 3:So for me, having stayed in medical quarters, and then my mom is a nurse or whatever. I was geared towards doing medicine, so I knew.
Speaker 3:I wanted to be a medical doctor and that is what I wanted. But in hindsight, I think I had some other reasons why I wanted to do medicine. So it was like, you see, most people would ask I want to help people. You know why I wanted to do meds. So it was like, you see, like most people would ask I want to help people, you know I want to do that and you have that in you, matthew.
Speaker 2:Still, whatever you do, you have that, and that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 3:In the fullness of things. I'm still doing exactly whatever, because maybe at a later time in the podcast I'd come to that. But initially I wanted to do medicine. I joined French school and even till the time we were to complete, we were like I'm to do medicine, but I enjoy acting. I enjoy acting. I enjoy dancing, so I'm in the arts space, the creative arts and whatever, but even the literature. As you're saying, the literature, maths, came naturally to me, so for me.
Speaker 3:I didn't struggle with maths and even I really got good great teachers of mathematics. There is a Mr Soita in French school. He was really good.
Speaker 3:He would even sleep in class. But you now feel guilty of now sleeping in class in a maths class. And so it came naturally to me, so I would be geared towards a different side. But I also did computer studies in school, in high school, so it was my other bit that I also loved doing. So there were great teachers. There is a Dr Batoya now. He also transitioned into, did his PhD, but he was a great computer studies teacher so.
Speaker 3:I wanted to do medicine, but these other things, the art and whatever it's what I just I loved. It's funny, I loved the other side of French school more than the studies came naturally, but I enjoyed being on stage. Yeah, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:And also I've seen this even in most national schools that you know.
Speaker 2:Each national school is a champion in different extracurricular activities and this is something actually that I've come to understand, because for me, actually I chose. You know, the only thing I would be interested in is drama, just drama, because it's not something that is involving, it's not extracurricular. And also I saw the longevity. Even if all goes haywire, there's nothing much I can. If I'm a runner, maybe I would go and win some marathon, but anything else looked even today.
Speaker 2:You can't be a footballer. You're confidently thinking you'll play for I don't know what you have like 2-3 guys who have gone to Arabian League and you know there's no potential. But one thing that I've seen in the national schools is that there's something extra beyond education, and so for even if you're in high school, primary, it's better to be all way rounded. It helps a lot. So, since you used to go to this drama, uh, did you meet these fine, fine girls? Fine, you know fine, fine babes? Or for you, you just went there, acted, went back to school, or for you, you just went there acted went back to school.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we met, we met. It was a great socializing event, so to speak.
Speaker 2:Nothing more.
Speaker 3:Nothing more.
Speaker 2:No letters afterwards, no girlfriends.
Speaker 3:Definitely letters were there. I remember some time receiving a really hot slap from Mr Chetabu, oh, okay.
Speaker 2:I thought it's fine babe. No, no, no.
Speaker 3:Because, like in drama friend school, I told you I was an official by fourth form, I was the chairman, I was also a secretary, like that for the drama club. So there was a school called St Bridget's Kiminini, so it was kind of a girl's school for the drama, for us because before we started the festivals, we used to go there stage our plays there.
Speaker 3:So mostly it's maybe a Sunday that we go, but now it's not the festivals yet. But now you've taken boys to St Bridget, of course, so after the play and whatever. So let guys, just because they could sit down, socialize a bit and whatever. But on that particular day, the time for the socializing now for people, for me, I was fending for my team.
Speaker 3:I'm the chairman. But I'm like, I see the time they're like you have to go back to school because we're having an exam, oh, okay. Yeah, we have to go back to school because we're having an exam.
Speaker 3:Oh, okay, yeah, we have to go back the same night Because it's not in the evening. It used to be an afternoon show, so we did the afternoon show and after that now you stay in the hall. But now I was among the last people to get to the bus because other people could get victimized, so I was like, if another person gets last, I was like I stayed slightly behind as a leader, as a leader to take care. Like the captain, everyone gets on board before you become the last, so at that time I doubt if because I didn't take really personally or whatever.
Speaker 3:So I received a really hot slap from the patron, got to the bus Immediately. I felt really bad. We were going but now to do that day. I remember we had a maths paper and I knew I could we could ask we could ask it. Yeah, went back, but Went back. But I think he apologised Because after the paper we were now to do A post-mortem of that day. So in the meeting that we were having I was like, no, it was just. But everything now went well.
Speaker 2:It's not like I could not make it in time.
Speaker 3:As a leader. Because, what would the point be? These are boys and you've taken them.
Speaker 2:That's what actually excites them. That was kind of the point be. These are boys and you've taken them to a girl's.
Speaker 3:That's what actually excites them. Yes, that was kind of the point After the thing give them some bit of time, in a way. But I would also feel the other side, because yeah, time and discipline.
Speaker 2:Maybe we were frustrating him. So yeah, you could look at both sides and it's the heat of the moment. Yeah, it was the heat of the moment. Yeah, you could look at what side at the heat of the moment.
Speaker 3:but he may not even really remember this, but for me it was an experience a nice one.
Speaker 2:It's because me and I enjoyed going for these things, thank you, yeah, because we are even at the nationals.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I have a. It's like, if at all, it's a person who was like getting way more fly ladies or whatever music festival could have more than festivals, because in drama all of you are competing on the same thing, but in the music festivals there are way low, more many categories of different different things. But yeah, that makes the variety. You'll have lots more schools participating in this other than drama, because in drama it could be. Yeah, quite a few, especially at the local level. But in moving to nationals it's normally a whole variety of the country.
Speaker 2:Status girls, alliance girls I don't know, alliance girls were good at what?
Speaker 3:Even plays. At some point they participated really well, I think they participated.
Speaker 2:I never went to Nationals but there are a couple of schools that went there and when you meet at Provincial, and stuff you could always say ah, you know, state tour guys, it was state tour guys. Yeah, and they had some fly fly cheeks and all that. Yeah, man, patch was also well-known because of the rugby and and all that. Yeah man, yeah, anyways, and Patch, patch was also well-known because of the rugby and stuff like that, Also drama.
Speaker 3:At some point they had some plays.
Speaker 2:We had some ex-Patch students at the school. I was, I was in international school, though. So it was one of those schools, and at first, actually, I was in mixed school and then went to boys, to boys school. That's when I realized why it's exciting to go to these events, because you see, in a mixed school you are seeing these ladies everyday. You are all boarders, so it's nothing big deal, but when you go to boys school you stay there for one time. You're like man, what's happening next?
Speaker 2:are we going to the scout in Nyeri? There needs to be some focus, so it sounds fascinating. So for you, favorite subject was always math, because it came naturally.
Speaker 3:Yeah, math came naturally. Yeah, Also computer studies.
Speaker 2:Ah because it was basically. It makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was in as much as I played maybe some bits of computer games here and there before joining, because when I came to Friends School to stay with my brother he had friends who was running?
Speaker 3:a supermarket in Kimilili in the evenings. It was one of his friends. He had this old desktop at that time we were doing quite a bit of gaming. It fascinated me, and now when I joined French school, I knew I wanted to go. In French school there were particular classes that could have the computing option. So I was like, even if I would be taken to another one, I would try to force myself into a class that takes computer studies.
Speaker 2:Which classes are these?
Speaker 3:We had now XYZ at that time, so it was W and Z that could do computer studies. Is that for?
Speaker 2:top students.
Speaker 3:Not necessarily. It's like a way of just balancing the mega resources in computing. So within those two classes you could choose to do computers, not others, but even the people choosing. I really can't remember the cut of sort of criteria at that point, but at least it was fixated to two of the classes.
Speaker 3:But for me, I was lucky to have gotten to class Z, but, as I was saying, since I knew how, the system works even if I wouldn't have gone to that class, I would have tried figuring out a way of going to the computing it looks like computer studies for you was crazy man Because Nanda said he had to cry his way out.
Speaker 2:Man, If I'm not doing these computer studies, Maybe for him.
Speaker 3:I think for him it was a different. Yeah, either, we had different drives, but I'm glad he also did For you.
Speaker 2:It's just, the world is better because Nanda did it yeah sure, yeah, so you persuade through.
Speaker 3:Fourth form yeah, till fourth form.
Speaker 3:And you also ace it again. Yes, at least for our school, as I tell you the teacher of computer studies, there was a way you know quite a number of people there, those days maybe the schools are round and things like that it's like, oh you know, these guys were getting either leakage or something like that. Just to demystify that, as I was saying, if at all, you're having creme de la creme of a particular thing and then you've been conditioned to like, you've revised all the papers of computing since they started coming, and those are the questions that come in, these cuts that you're doing almost, because you see, as I was saying, in Form 3, you're doing everything from form one, but in form four, every cut and you're not given time to breathe.
Speaker 3:Even at midnight they could bring the paper you'd breathe, but it's much struggle in a way. So it's kind of conditioned. But still at that time I wanted to do medicine. In as much as I'm doing this I know I'll be good in Bio chem and what I still wanted to go to that is, by the time you're sitting for KCSE. By the way, there is a friend called Marvin Olayo. He's an engineer At KQ right now. So you know those auto books that you sign After High school.
Speaker 3:So I was like right now so you know those auto books that you sign after high school sounds like let's meet at Chiromo doing. Mbchb. We still joke till now. He's a great engineer heading some division in.
Speaker 2:KQ. You're here doctor training more engineers.
Speaker 3:So still at that point we wanted to do by the time you were doing KCSE yeah. I knew we were going to Uchiromu.
Speaker 2:Wait a minute, you get your A. Yeah, I got my A. What changes or job happens, so that so job happens. And you don't have options here.
Speaker 3:So at this point in time, so after high school I go back home to Busia, but I was pained. I went to teach after high school, but maybe before the teaching, maybe story I got the air. But now, in terms of reading, she told us please read, read any book, just read, read English.
Speaker 2:And all that Keep reading Read. After reading, read more.
Speaker 3:Pick any newspaper, it'll open your mind and all that, yes. So what I was doing I remember it was literature- yeah. You know we were doing our exams from the hall. You know the way we were working. It was like you do a particular paper, you can almost tell how you're faring on, even as you're doing. You can almost tell you know you're looking at the bed very city where you're doing KCSE. It's like, yeah, I'm almost, I'm getting there or something.
Speaker 3:And then this literature comes, the day we used to do literature. It was chemistry paper one, chemistry paper two and literature in the afternoon. So in the morning you hit your paper one, paper two. The confidence levels are good. We're going to ask this when the afternoon comes, it used to be a really packed day for even guys in high school.
Speaker 3:They could know that day. Man, I'm looking at the paper before I start even answering and I'm like yeah, Because you've already done paper, the two papers for English, it's only remaining literature. Once it gets, you could tell how it is overall you're doing. But this time I knew it's at this point that I knew.
Speaker 2:It's not going to be that easy and you know medicine you can miss, actually with 0.5.
Speaker 3:It was such things. I was looking at this. You know the index. I was in like 7. Because it's at the stage of the hall, so it's quite big. The afternoon's quite big, just at the front the afternoon yeah, the afternoon is quite hot.
Speaker 2:Were you arranged by column or rows?
Speaker 3:It's columns, though it's columns. So index one, two, three, four like that, Till the very back and then like that, so you're quite.
Speaker 2:I can only feel for the last guy because, man, you're all the way back.
Speaker 3:But at least the back. You're not closer to the roof in a way, because at the front you're on the stage, so it's way closer to the roof in a way. I was looking at the roof. You know I'm trying to. How is this? That is when you remember the lecturer telling you please read and read and keep reading, so you are not an avid reader generally generally I could, but it's not like I gave it my really all so I got a B plus in English.
Speaker 2:So I got a B plus in English, that messed the whole.
Speaker 3:So I got a B plus in English and I was like I've gotten an A. It was an A of 81 points. Yeah, I knew somehow you could, but for UON at that time it was either UON or Moi that were given. But for me I knew I was just to go. I wanted to go to UON.
Speaker 1:I knew I was just to go. I wanted to go to UN.
Speaker 3:So I counted my losses.
Speaker 2:Even before the jab happens, you knew. So you see.
Speaker 3:I had to go rework my choices Because that time there were revisions. But now I had to go You're going to the provincial head to do the revision for that. So I went and now looked at my options. I knew this was my other I wanted I was good in computing and whatever. In as much as there were only 30 people that chiroma would pick at least this one, I would ask it. So I went and revised my yeah to computer science as the first choice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the letter came.
Speaker 3:the offer letter came for computer science, Because yeah, and a funny thing my dad, my late dad, now he couldn't you know for him. He also, I think, either the pride of parents and whatever he knew, his, his son, got an A and you're saying he can't go take medicine he was like I'm going to take a hunger strike or I don't know. I'm going to, I'm going to walk to work, to Nairobi, to the Ministry of Health, and they demand why my son hasn't gotten to med.
Speaker 2:But I was trying to explain to him ah, he's good, yeah, and being the lastborn, of course it's more love.
Speaker 3:I just wish maybe you'd be alive to see how much you've done man, it's a different, but no love lost, so to speak. It was quite some experience. But in hindsight, as I was saying partly I wanted to do med. A good chunk was to help elevate pain. That is quite there. But the other bit, at that time it was kind of a sure bet for job Because, unlike any other courses? After going for internship. The government was blessing you, so medicine and pharmacy had some sort of direct placement then.
Speaker 3:Most of this other engineering, you had to be the best at your bit. There was a way to slightly. It wasn't a sure bet, so to speak. But med and pharmacy so for me, in hindsight, it was this was the reason Not really saying the helping. The helping is an actual thing. At least there's sustainability, At least you won't struggle so much Because I'm a guy.
Speaker 3:even till now I may not call myself an entrepreneur, so to speak. I need some sort of safety at a personal level for you to think about now these other things, At least the basic minimum, could be there to sustain before you're thinking. And like the guys who are purely entrepreneurial, they risk appetite or they're not risk averse.
Speaker 2:And what would you attribute this safety-ness to? Is it like your Upbringing? Is it you know you're the last born?
Speaker 3:Fine for me, the last born Quite. A number of people may not Associate me maybe with last born, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Until now, I never knew you were last born.
Speaker 3:Not many people maybe normally attribute that. So for me, my whole life, the last born thing, at least even in our family I normally just hear stories of, I don't know how other last born cells were. And I guess it's quite different. I don't know whether it's their bringing or it's just maybe looking back. I don't know whether it's just a personal trait in you that either playing safe, getting just some safe thing before. Yeah, you could be teaching guys entrepreneurship, but I could be a good employee, I guess or do this and this it doesn't come naturally, maybe the way maths came naturally to me.
Speaker 3:For other people either, entrepreneurship comes really naturally to them, but for me at least it's something I work towards. So the safety bit at least, and I guess that is how maybe I'm a lecturer or I went into academia or I. Looking back, I could attribute it. There could be either some bit of this and then now try to help the world in a way yeah, interesting, I was almost telling you.
Speaker 2:you calculated your way in life being a mathematician. You read all the proportions the probabilities.
Speaker 2:You found out that, ah, man, I need like a 7% of, assured that I can't miss. The rent means of transport is there and now I can now pursue. These are 3%. Can I try entrepreneurship? But you know, looking at what you are doing and we'll get there. It's more than that. So you come to the school of computing, one and the only, and actually it has been the only, it was the only for some time until you know, with the more chartered universities, private and otherwise, and by then I think it was the most of, okay, the only one. Actually there was one in Moi, maybe, I'm not sure, but it was one of the outstanding. I would say computer science, no, it used to take only 30.
Speaker 3:Yeah, 30 students, that's it.
Speaker 2:So you get there, you meet the who is who you know, guys, for those who don't know, if you join this right now it might not be true, but when you used to join these high demand courses, you think you are smart and then you meet now the smart ones. When you used to join these high demand courses, you think you are smart and then you meet now the smart ones.
Speaker 2:You're like, okay, what has happened? And then there are people who are not so smart in high school they get to invest, even in primary school. They get to the high school and it's like now they get serious. You're like, ah, because I know the high school I was in's. Like now they get serious. Yeah, you're like, ah, because I know the high school I was in, that I joined in form three. There was this guy and I used to hear his stories. He was, I think, second last in form one until, I think term two, mm-hmm, term three he is number two. Term one, form two he is number two. Tom 1 from 2 is number one. Shock of the day you know from, and it was like 100 students plus and guys thought that maybe this guy is lucky. Guess what, no one beats this guy until 4-4. He's now a pharmacist and I think one of these fine day I'll get him there and he'll give us a secret.
Speaker 2:Because for me I actually never struggled for any subject and he was a guy who would find in all the things that you think are wrong in high school.
Speaker 2:So you come to Chiromo, you meet guys from Sarai, the guys who actually don't go to Stanford or MIT or Princeton. They go to the University of Nairobi. Now you can tell how smart these guys are. And then Chiromo had this thing where the lecturers were from Yale. Rest in peace, professor Odongo Kelo, you know. We have people like Dr Nganga from the University of Helsinki, and the list goes on. There is Moema from Oxford University still there, professor Moema and the list actually is quite. The caliber is amazing. You get there. There are smart lecturers and there are smart kids who have come to be Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates. You know, when you go to the computer science, I think at the back of your mind, that's when you realize oh man, this is what I want to be For you. How was it like?
Speaker 3:because now, of course, for you the shocker was just before you joined the university, because for me, maybe, if we could just slightly before, just before the university, I think there is a period that also shaped a good chunk of of of who I am in a way yes the choice is now. I took afterwards, yeah, at french school kamsinga. It was a provincial school. Then yeah, so provincial schools, are these quarters the way national schools would pick a majority, 75 percent from its province and then the rest of the country would get oh diversity.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah, provincial school would pick also much from the district where it was placed and then a few from the others. Yeah, so my home county is Busia County. Yeah. So at that time it was a Busia district. Yeah.
Speaker 3:We have amazing people, very brilliant people in all forms whether it's in academics or in co-curricular. So it used to really pain me At French school, top 10, there are quite a number of guys from Busia In basketball, great guys from Busia Hockey, but now you go back home like the whole Busia district, just French school, kamsinga or even just Kibabi. One school in Bungoma county has taken more people to the university than the whole district. So that thing, it meant something.
Speaker 2:So there were very few high schools within Busia at that time right now is there a school that we high schools within Busia At that time. Right now is there a school that we can attribute to Busia.
Speaker 3:Quite a number. Even that time. There was one called Butula. It was the one that was now performing. There was a guy called Maseno.
Speaker 2:Maybe you may have known him from.
Speaker 3:In SEI. He was coming from Butula.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know Maseno. Maseno, I think, was in the same class with Nanda. Yeah, he was in the same class with Nanda.
Speaker 3:So in Busia there were fewer guys in high school. And then, as I told you, for me passing was more of a culture thing, but something that happened between, I think, either 2003 and 2005 or 2006, 2007,. Quite a number of the primary schools used to start a high school within it, so they donate one class to be a high school school. So the transition rate from primary to high school in busia was really low. So I went to a school, just a village school in my village, called budokomi. I was a senior master in that school straight from high school.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so the school, the principal is the primary principal, the deputy is a person who had done a degree, not teaching a degree in biology. Most of us are just straight from high school. But to come to kind of give back, so at that time they had gone up to form three, so they had started. But it has grown to form three At that time, so straight. I did my KCSE in November, in January. I'm a teacher but you're a senior master in that school, so you can imagine the school.
Speaker 3:It doesn't have resources. You're teaching almost all subjects, even those that I dropped in Form 2.
Speaker 2:Theory, business studies. I dropped in Form 2. You're also going and learning and teaching.
Speaker 3:You're teaching them and all that and you know you're teaching chemistry, you're just telling. Just know, there is a test tube. It's drawn like this when this leaves, it will turn blue, black, and so.
Speaker 2:Just the basics.
Speaker 3:So you can imagine and that is where now the education system You're expecting that person To also sit the same KCSE.
Speaker 2:With a person, exams everything.
Speaker 3:Yeah, from Kamsinga, and you're expecting them To pass at the same rate. Definitely so, doing exams every day? Yeah, from Kamsinga, and you're expecting them to pass at the same rate. Definitely so we are judging a fish on how to climb I don't know a tree or something like that. But for me there were a good chunk of energetic young men who gave it now their all.
Speaker 3:We taught these students and a good chunk of them. You know there is a person who went now to the university, straight to the university. Those days it was B+ for job, right now C+. You know I see people getting the C+ and they're like. I know a person who in that humble beginning so less resources, they could still manage the B+ and go to uni. So it was my most fulfilling time.
Speaker 3:Even till now the two years that I spent before joining uni teaching. Because you're teaching almost every subject At eight. You go back to the house riding bikes, work back home At eight. You're just so exhausted. You're just after dinner.
Speaker 4:You're like you're sitting on the Just switch off and you're gone.
Speaker 3:You you're like you're sitting on the and you just switch off and you're gone. You're sleeping. You didn't like feel yourself. But I look at the people who now came out of that time and even now them I I was now scripting for them drama because the first year I couldn't do drama. I went to a different school, but they did you know music festival is cheap?
Speaker 3:yes, set piece poems. But now they could go till provincial schools. You could see the esteem, just the self-esteem, because there are now these big schools in that they have buses and all they realize, and then and then. So you see, even in funkies there are particular schools, who, who normally fear it's like maybe in other schools, you're coming from a village school and you really don't believe in yourself. You know there is a French school, come single or no, alliance or whatever.
Speaker 3:You don't really believe in yourself. But that year, when they beat now these provincial schools from Busia that have buses and whatever, it was the first time they hired a van to take them to a different school. Wow, what it made them feel. You know even the whole village it's like guys are you know they're moving from their village to another county for provincials. It really gave them their psyche. The second year I wrote a verse and a narrative, but now, because I'm the one who really even painted the backdrops- I I did all that and the setting was a school so we didn't really need costume or whatever.
Speaker 3:So their uniforms in drama was also part of the the thing. So to make it cheap, they also went now to provincials and that time the provincials were in Friends School, kamsinga, wow. So you see it was like a motivation the way guys like Friends School were going to Alliance for the cross, yeah, but for this, what it just did to them moving from there to Friends School Kamsinga, trying to see that coming back After that, just the psyche and the belief in themselves way out of this world it has really grown right now with support.
Speaker 3:Even now the number of schools now in Busia that started in that way the transition rate now increased. Yeah, I'm glad I think the fulfillment from that at some point it now drew me towards academia in a way.
Speaker 2:So even by doing computing one way or another. It would either come back to Because you could see the impact that.
Speaker 3:Yes, at least at a personal level, I felt fulfilled. I've never been fulfilled, like those two years that I did at Budokomi. It had a huge impact, so I came to your end chiromo be the computer science, as you're saying, you're meeting this amazing amazing and very smart guys. Yeah, class, you could. You could tell guys, even, even guys from the very villages and whatever they're doing. Amazing, the meeting, getting a computer for the first time there and he beats you hands down.
Speaker 2:Me. I got it in second year. My classmate can speak for themselves. Second year, kaka, second semester. But you come to computing and this is maybe something that people don't really share a lot. Even I think I forgot to ask Nanda. Tell them this experience of the first semester. You are taught what you know your entire, is it 12 years Within a month, and then discreet mother is introduced to you. And it's tested you For you. Who was Abung Still there Teaching electrical engineering, all the engineering. They learn their discrete from Abung. We did our.
Speaker 2:Africa Stocking Summit last year at the University of Nairobi and I checked around. We had this conversation with some engineering students and I asked them who is teaching you this script? Abungu, prof Abungu. Yes, and this guy teaches using notes. Yes, and he tells you that this is one discrete math book, that is at. Chiromo Library.
Speaker 2:Last time I checked it's at Chiromo Library. It's one. You just go and borrow it for one day, be kind enough to bring back, but pay more attention to page this. You go there, you'll find the book, yes, but you'll not find the page. I don't know if that was your experience.
Speaker 3:At least they're quite a bit for me, for me discrete, as I told you, maths was quite, quite quite straightforward for me, so discrete wasn't much of a problem. Calculus he was the same who taught calculus and discrete.
Speaker 2:Now we were taught by another guy.
Speaker 3:This is also another fascinating guy, Fascinating okay.
Speaker 2:I can't remember his name he fascinating guy. I can't remember his name, he was a doctor, brown looking guy With suits and whatever. But this guy was fascinating man, he didn't carry a book. You could do the differentiation You're like dude, where is all this knowledge coming from? You know there's someone who can learn from and you're like man. These are all different levels of knowledge. But go ahead.
Speaker 3:For me the discrete. It's funny. All of it is maths, but I think I'm the logical guy because for me.
Speaker 3:Maybe this other calculus wasn't much of the logical, and it's funny. I normally used to wonder. I could almost tell I would get the A in discrete and not in calculus. I needed to work quite a bit on the calculus, but the grades were the other way around. Whatever it is, I was like I wanted to meet a bungu and ask him since you're not taking the both of them, did you switch the two? Or because for this great was quite straightforward to me compared to this.
Speaker 2:This is how it makes it look, but it's not the reason. I knew why it's not it's not straightforward uh, I, I, I, I did more like I went to youtube and and checked out this mother from MIT and Stanford videos.
Speaker 3:You know they put those videos.
Speaker 2:I'm like man. This dude is making very complex things look simple.
Speaker 3:But they're not. They're not simple Because this dude will explain one theory, because this is about understanding how computers work and how they come up with these things faster. Right.
Speaker 2:And then I see you know how the MIT do the math. And then they pull the board like three, four boards, one theory and Dabunga is here with his notes. Nothing much. This is what your cut will be, Because he could give you like two questions accounting for like 30%. So Calculus was the one that you failed, you passed and the other one you failed.
Speaker 3:I failed, Not failed because it was an A and a B.
Speaker 3:So I could think not failing. But I was just like the two grades could be switched. I felt this other one I worked quite hard at it to get that but this other one, it was even from the cards and whatever, because I got I don't know a 28 in discrete out of the 30 or something. So I was like and the exams, so yeah, but the interesting people, the interesting people, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in in in ICI now it's a department.
Speaker 2:I don't know why they suppose it's a real minor school. I feel like it could grow more. Actually even they should. But anyway, as the smart people look at things, I was even to have some podcast, maybe.
Speaker 2:I should and try to you know, exchange knowledge and try to expound on modern knowledge-based society, which is actually one of the causes of computing and the impact it has on the kind of solution we want to see, because you're living in a digital world, sure, and I feel that school actually could grow enormous, like every department in every school actually should have a computing element in it. And the school of computing actually should lead that.
Speaker 3:By the way, it could be that, but I think the strategy that your N had for me it is it was, you know, like other universities at that time it was the only computing-related course. It was the only computing-related course, but one computer science. It's not like there is software engineering, I don't know. You know, like KU or J-Quad they could have electronics and computer engineering. I don't know software engineering.
Speaker 2:Mixing math.
Speaker 3:Mixing quite a bit For your end. At undergrad we only had computer science. That's it. At year two you would get a diploma. If you want to live, please, by all means yes. So that was another good thing that.
Speaker 2:I think Going deep.
Speaker 3:Yes, it was a thing that you see the people like currently you find somebody struggle and that year two, maybe because of one reason or another, you couldn't proceed. You could get, you could at least have a fallback of the diploma or something. But also, at year four, get your degree. But for me, at master's level they have quite a number of programs. They were even doing entry exams because now it had attracted a lot more than they could. But now you'll find other universities. You're trying to either water down the computer science into different versions and things like that to attract different people.
Speaker 3:So maybe it was a strategy for your end or something like that, but I hear you.
Speaker 2:But actually I share in the sentiment because I I'm a believer of going deeper and and you know, uh, and and because there's so much, sure, but also I'm looking at the modern world day education right and and the impact of this different education. All I'm saying is that and I think we can have this conversation with all the professors there- at some point because there's more discussion there Sure sure.
Speaker 2:Is that computing as it is at the University of Nairobi, it's worth to be looked at. Even these other universities actually can learn one or two things. Sure, not only that, but even other departments.
Speaker 3:Oh, within the university.
Speaker 2:Yes, because you look at even the guys who come out of that, even if they are few graduates and do like upper class and stuff. There's something I feel like if other guys actually could and the School of Computing could offer that as something that they say, okay, this is what you are offering for, I don't know, for pay or for something, but now it could actually even change the dynamics of how we look at things, or open an industry, because even the projects that actually people do at a graduate level, master's level, top notch, so that's that.
Speaker 2:But of course, you know, within a school there are so many handles, as I know I'm not super short but we'll get there there are so many handles and and of course you don't just come up with it however innovative they are they have, yeah, they send it the senators to sit down and say you know, this is it, we agree, let's go. So you join first year, your experience is good and you meet smart guys. Do you really catch up in terms of performance and, you know, keep track until the end, or how was it for you?
Speaker 3:At least in terms of performance. I thank God. I had an amazing time. I had great friendships. As you're saying, really amazing and smart people shout out to all the guys class of 2011 who? Graduated 2011. Great guys doing amazing stuff.
Speaker 2:Guys could, could do movers and shakers all over the world even right now. Yeah, all over the world so to speak at least for me.
Speaker 3:I thank God I really maybe didn't really drift quite much. And then, thanks to even projects that were there pushed by the faculty yeah, prof, prof ogasha, nowadays prof, all raw, they're quite a number. There was no cure research lab, so quite an up beat of the projects that were there, who were fortunate enough to be part of groups that at least Could give some side gigs. So that one was even a structured side gig for the project. So there was a project by Nokia Research.
Speaker 3:Lab and a number of Now. At second year we did one of the groups but a number of second years, third years on that building a particular pilot or proof of concept. So even from Nokia there were quite a number of projects that now students are doing and it was actually just payment from it In school at that time. It was quite something.
Speaker 3:And also just the experience in working in teams and building building building solutions at that particular time and then quite a number went to, because at that time is when Facebook was also the accounts, a good chunk went to Stanford. There was some bit of exchange. At that time a number Google was taking some interns, at that Google Africa. At that time A number Google was taking some interns at that, google Africa at that time. So it was quite some good experience and you could see what the value that maybe the school was providing, or quite a number of faculty had.
Speaker 2:Those projects and things like that. And I don't know, did you meet? Now he's a.
Speaker 3:Dr Royu Royu, yes.
Speaker 2:He taught you HCI.
Speaker 3:Mostly there was system analysis and design and also, yeah, he was mostly teaching.
Speaker 2:What was your experience? Because I have very funny experiences.
Speaker 3:I would love to hear yours.
Speaker 2:Royu is a monotone guy.
Speaker 1:He speaks in some decibels that don't increase or reduce. Rio is a monotone guy.
Speaker 2:He speaks in some decibels that don't increase or reduce. So, man, I could not make it 10 minutes into it it is it sounded like lullaby. It means I'm like feeling so dizzy so I had to. How I hacked that course? I had to go. And I hacked that course is I had to go and do my own personal reading and research and all that. But man, that guy could speak. In a way I was remembering. The reason why I remember him specifically is because the other day I was I don't know who.
Speaker 2:I was talking to, oh, no, the event we had at the Sote Hub. Yeah, for some reason, while presenting, I remembered him, and what I was trying to put across is that, regardless of the knowledge you get, please find a way of getting more, if really it's something for us Because, you see, hci CDs are very important, especially in the modern day technology, because if you build something and it's not usable, it's not palatable, it's not something that someone could really own then, you have missed the point.
Speaker 2:And here we have a lecturer who is super smart, but delivery.
Speaker 1:Man, I know you're a lecturer and you do get those lecturers.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think for me, at a personal level, I think this is what I consider myself, I think I'm a very considerate person, either quite slow to because this may not be anger slow to, I'm quite not be anger slow to. I accommodate, I'm quite patient, yeah. And. I think either the teaching, teaching experience at Budokomi gave a bit of that to me, yeah, even when we were disagreeing with people, I could be quite either accommodative or patient to try hear you.
Speaker 2:whatever Reasoning, yeah, and then I yeah reasoning yeah.
Speaker 3:And then I guess I don't know if there was any connection then. But much later, whatever he did in his PhD and whatever it is I did, there are particular theories that now he even during my PhD I went to him, he gave me, he was kind enough to give me his PhD. We were working on the same theory man.
Speaker 2:I need to meet him once more and tell him it was good.
Speaker 3:but I would wish it would be maybe this way or that way.
Speaker 2:I feel you so.
Speaker 2:For you you didn't feel like it was maybe, maybe my personality, maybe, maybe I'm the one who processed how he presented this in a monotone maybe, and actually it's good because you, maybe I'm the one who processed how he presented this in a monotone. Maybe, actually it's good, because nowadays I'm going back there to visit and also introduce some of the community aspect as well as talk about the knowledge and stuff with the student. If I bump to him or any other person because I and it's the way life is you'll meet people who you find them certain way. By that time you might not be able to tell them or give them feedback.
Speaker 3:Feedback is good, it's good maybe there could be another MK there at the moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I didn't do that bad but.
Speaker 3:I could do more.
Speaker 2:I see. So yeah, I mean there are a couple of lecturers. How did you find Okelo by the professor the late?
Speaker 3:That was interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, assembly language.
Speaker 3:Prof. Was you know those people who are? You see you're calling smart people and he had for me either. He was also very soft-spoken, but the delivery there are lots of technical stuff that he's delivering.
Speaker 2:That needs more investigation and internalizing.
Speaker 3:A lot of thought processes.
Speaker 2:For him. He really used books and slides. Slides. He could send them find time to read them. But when he comes there he breaks down assembly language like it's a one, two, three, four kind of stuff. Yeah, man, uon big up, sei man, it's a one, two, three, four kind of stuff. Yeah, I mean the UON big up SEI man. It's crazy, it's really good. Um, so what are some interesting aspects towards your the end of the, or even what did you build a second year for second year project?
Speaker 3:so for second year, funny enough, we it was a collab. You know that time time it was meant to be a solo project, but at that time we did two people one project. So there is Eric Ngei.
Speaker 2:Hello Ngei.
Speaker 3:He was my roommate in first year and then in second year. There there was a project we were calling it. Was it ivr? Yes, it was an ivr. So that time the technology wasn't really much there like it is right now.
Speaker 3:So, like the, the, the voice about the virtual reality, or voice no, no it was a voice you're recording, like the press one, two, so it's interactive voice response, whatever you'll call safari com, and press one for this and then two for that. At that time it wasn't because that was 2009, it wasn't that much there. So we build a solution for a doctor and it had now the IVR component so the patients could, so I was working on the IVR component so the patients could.
Speaker 3:So I was working on the IVR side and then he worked on the doctor's system because, it had. Dr Oro was a supervisor, a prof now. So, there were those two components and, by the way, that time it was the most innovative. At that time they used to call it Science Fest, or something we used to have a Newcomps could organize all the projects, the last year, the last year, the last year, and then you demonstrate, and then there used to be a dinner after that. So at second year we were invited.
Speaker 3:We were invited to the fourth year's dinner. At that time it was Intercon, I think. Yeah, songei, big Up. So that was what it is we did at second year. At fourth year Dr Nganga was my supervisor I did an application for fish farmers. So I think this fishing thing, looking back, things started Because, coming from Busia- fish is a staple food, and that time they used to call it economic stimulus program.
Speaker 3:So the government had pumped quite a bit of money to fish farmers within Busia. So I was working with the fisheries officer in Busia. So at that time I think very technology moves, that time mobile, you had to code a mobi, dot mobi, and then there was a, the actual web, and then now Google Maps. At that time, so it was also you could either some recommender algorithm for gets maps where, if at all, you are trader and and and and and a fish farmer when the thing.
Speaker 3:so that is what the application for I did in Fothia.
Speaker 2:Interesting man. Like you did some amazing, you know, when you talked about IVR. Now Africa's Talking Voice came into mind, man, Because you see now much come to think about it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, now their technologies are actually doing that, but at that time, because it was on linux, yeah, we built quite a number of either some open source stuff, that we're trying to reconfigure to and then record it. So at that time, yeah, at that time, record record, get some people to do the voice records and then now, if at all they press a particular beat, it goes to another end. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Man, and did it cross your mind that you can pursue these projects later on and build something of value out of them?
Speaker 3:It may or may not have the bit that I told you. For me, maybe, entrepreneurship doesn't come as a first, it's not. Another person could look at it in many other different ways and really push and persuade him. Maybe that fee, because we called it to ganesha. It was like at that time maybe before this, the e-commerce and linking either farmers and traders or things like that. Yeah, because that time it was quite a bit. Had we pursued it maybe as a as a startup then and had that uh, push to to take it less, as I think you would have done.
Speaker 3:So it may have occurred, but maybe I didn't have it in me to or either the ecosystem or pushing it in that, along that direction, then yeah, and in both your projects you passed really well.
Speaker 2:You got the maximum you could because they account for like four units because one was like I don't even, it was quite a lot.
Speaker 3:The second year, one was two, this other one was about either six or something like that no I think, yeah, at that time. The curriculum, I guess it was about either six or so I think so okay.
Speaker 2:Now I don't think they do, for they used to when by the time I was doing that, it was 4-4.
Speaker 3:For us second year it was like 2. This other one was a lot more.
Speaker 2:I'm a more practical guy.
Speaker 3:But a funny thing is I don't know whether for you also the experience during presentation at the final. The things just during the presentation there is a particular beat the, the, the, the beat that just you. You've stayed overnight doing a particular thing and you break yeah, you just break the code in a way and that's where, yeah, it was working. Even even I.
Speaker 2:I demonstrated yesterday supervisor yeah and then the supervisor doesn't want to be on your side to look like you know what.
Speaker 3:I don't know if you had any of such experience.
Speaker 2:I did, I did, but I found out. You know, for me, packaging things is not the biggest challenge in my life. Like you, could give me anything and I could package it to be palatable, because I also realize people don't care about the tech so much they people don't care about the tech. So much the practicality of it the care of the solution or the impact. So if you really package that really well and even if you demonstrate the practicality of it up to 70%, it's still good.
Speaker 3:How I wish that message should go to very many engineers. I don't know if they get it because quite a number of the engineers are fascinated with the tech and maybe that's where they're, either computer science or whatever it's like. Oh man, I stayed hours of code and all that. You see, this is what. But at least on the ground for the layman, or whoever it's what that enabled him to do yeah. The features that they'll be interested in may not be the one that you spent months and years to.
Speaker 2:So that is a message you should take to more and more, and this reminds me there's another course, I think it's called. Oop. I remember taught by Pauline. I think Pauline was your classmate or something she was about either two or three years ahead. Yeah, she taught us some OOP and there's this project she said we make, and then I used to do a lot of things outside school and, because you know, I didn't stay at the school, so I went and got an open source project.
Speaker 3:It was a chat Then chat was not big deal Even message.
Speaker 2:Facebook message was broken, which was the initial chat. Whatsapp was not really up there and, given it's an open source, you have the open source code. So I tweaked it Because, at the end of the day, we needed a project to present. And when I presented it it was too good to be true to her, she was like where did you get this one?
Speaker 4:I said it's open source, not like I built it from scratch because building message like you know, it's chat message.
Speaker 2:It's quite complex for three months or four months. One person and I think she wasn't satisfied with that for some reason, but ideally for me, me I was like, wow, maybe I'm ahead of my time. And then eventually actually open source became big to an extent that open data said every government should adopt to open source and open data. Right, I know, of course, open data is all the same as open source, but of course, getting something that actually works and adopting it to serve the purpose is something that people know a lot and they want to reinvent the wheel every time and I can assure you all the tech that you see, everything that you see, including mobile phones. They don't start with those specific guys.
Speaker 3:It's eventual growth and additions.
Speaker 2:I thought I should say that. It's very, very important. Sure, so you, you hiss it again, you get your your. Yeah, oui, Get your second up or you get your first class.
Speaker 3:I got the second up. Ah, that's amazing man Getting second up. Or get your first class. It was a second up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's amazing man getting second up at school of community. You can count the guys who get it. There's something actually. I wanted to talk about the sei guys. So this time I was crossing uh tanzanian border for the first time at holo holo. I think it was tanga and I think I wasn't vaccinated for the yellow is it called yellow fever, the yellow card that you're given for 10 years and I had someone also, but they were not qualified to be vaccinated.
Speaker 2:And this guy who I go to, he says you look young, where are you from? He tried to know me. I'm just graduated from the university of Nairobi doing computer science. Oh, you did computer science when? Chiromo, yeah, chiromo, chiromo. You know Dr Moturi? Oh, no, no, christopher Moturi, yeah. He's still there, yeah.
Speaker 2:Ah man, we became very good friends. Like man, I was from there, I worked for the immigration and whatever, and I'm posted here because of biometrics and all that kind of stuff. And it shows me. And then there's this other guy that actually Christophe Moturi introduced me to from Microsoft, so he was, I think, a Kenyan-Indian, Kenyan of Indian descent. And he schooled at School of Computing some time back and he went to live in San Francisco or someplace.
Speaker 2:I think Seattle or something so he used to be a partner, a Microsoft partner or something, so he used to work with Microsoft and the guys who, when you know Windows OS is broken, you see those patches. You have to download this much and then once you install.
Speaker 2:It works. So they do. And funny thing, I remember about this guy that I wish I meet him again and do a podcast. Then I so he had written codes, so there's a way his body had conformed to that so he didn't have some hair, some part of his hair, and then here he had carved. But he was a really good engineer, just to say the least. And when I check out now that at least I interact with so many people, school of Computing has really represented very many talented guys across the world.
Speaker 2:And this brings me to after. You are a computer science. You decided to go and do masters or Masters came slightly later.
Speaker 3:By the way, I wanted to do masters. As I told you, since I was in, I wanted to go the academia route. We could get into the graduate trainee program. Yes, by that time I didn't get a first class. It would either be because at that time I think it's a conversation I had also with Christopher Mturi, who was the deputy director then yeah, but that year the school didn't offer a graduate assistant role our year.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because the following year I think Nanda and those other gentlemen wait, what's his name? The two joined as graduate assistants because it was like you join and then you could be seen in a chukka tour before Selena there was one. Selena was from a different to a university.
Speaker 2:But those not good.
Speaker 3:Not good a legal good. I.
Speaker 2:Oh good, europe, yes, yes so he came, went for.
Speaker 3:So it was. That was the path I would want to take, but you see it was either a first class or the, the, the uni offering that, but at that year they hadn't offered that, so at that time I did a gig on web applications in sync, in sync, media I in sync uh in sync, media in sync solutions solutions limited and then, while at that we're building the in sync was building the website for the judiciary.
Speaker 3:I see how now you're the path turned into judiciary now. But you see, I was at in sync doing web applications for them and then, through Professor Waemwa, they wanted sort of attachees or interns at the judiciary. So that is how there was Helen Nyamwiru and there was some Omolo who the three of us went to the judiciary. So there was an email, so you were in the class of Omolo.
Speaker 2:I was in the class of Ny went to the judiciary so there was an email. So you're in the class of Omolo.
Speaker 3:I was in the class with Nyamu, omolo was with Nanda, so Omolo was a class behind, and then I was with Helen.
Speaker 2:The reason why I asked you what you got at Yonini is because I know Omolo got first class Okay and he's with the judiciary. Also, eric Ngei got ngay got gay got a fast first class right yes uh, but him.
Speaker 3:I think he went either to ernest amaki, honest. Yeah, yeah, it's an astonian either he was at pwc or honest before moving to this other yeah, kcb.
Speaker 2:Right now he's in kcb should be the last hx. Yeah, yeah and and and to some extent I feel like government gets all the best minds, but when it comes to seeing that Because you see like at the point you know government or even fine government or universities, there is a particular structure and the things are done.
Speaker 3:And changing that is where the that's why it's normally quite rough, or you'll figure a way of navigating that space Because why I say maybe quite a number of adults looking back they connect At NSYNC. We were doing just the judiciary some bit of it.
Speaker 3:But now there is this professor. He's called Professor Joel Ngugi. He's now a high court, not a high court, he's a court of appeal judge. There is a new dispensation in the judiciary. Dr william is now the chief justice and then this professor applies. He was a professor in university, I think, of washington. He moves supplies to be a judge in kenya. So that is a story you know later yeah so he comes.
Speaker 3:He's in machacos. He wonders what is happening with the judiciary, the culture and everything. So he sends an email to professor from among the school. You could give us a bunch of guys who could help us yeah, yeah, that is how yeah, that is how dr. Dr Nganga, who is in our class, shares the info, and I think so. I reply to the email and then YM also forwards the same. And then the professor asked me are you available to come to Machakos on so-and-so? You can just come and see exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 3:So that's how I go to Machakos. These other ones went to the judiciary in. Nairobi yeah.
Speaker 3:So I sit down with him, and that is another changing moment, the talk with this guy from Washington, this guy His thinking is quite different, right? Not only just thinking they're good people who mean well for this country. I'm thinking there are good people who mean well for this country and, despite the way the structures are or whatever, we could really blame the government or whatever. But there are really good people who mean well in government and would want to make the best out of it.
Speaker 3:They're among the people or a team that I. This is my view of things. I could be wrong but, it's a team that Dr William Mutunga used to transform the judiciary Because there were think tanks coming up with, there was a strategic, so they used to call it a judiciary transformation framework. They built a framework to help the judiciary. At that time, judiciary almost had I don't know only a few ICT officers in the whole country and for him the way it was working.
Speaker 3:Why not just have a simple database that could help digitize these processes and whatever? So there were things about, I don't know, lost files. The processes within the space were not remuneration for them, so there was lots of corruption and things like that at that point in time. So it was like I'm here in Machakos. This is how the judiciary works. You can imagine a person coming from Ikuda. I think he mentioned that name.
Speaker 3:There's a place, one farthest corner of, I think, kitwi County. They have to come to Machako's just to ask where is my file, at what point, what is the status? But there is only maybe one that comes all the way to Machako. So if the status of the case it's just to look at the file, but now you come, the people at the registry tracing just that file or whatever.
Speaker 3:So, just the inefficiencies of that, but they did lots of stuff in even just transforming the remuneration of staff as the judiciary and even the how should I put it? The mindset, because initially it was like judges were being feared. It's like on a, you're in a hallway, a judge is appearing from the other side, people vanish. Maybe there are people along the corridors, yeah, but you could just find people vanishing along. So there were more.
Speaker 3:So they had that culture of only judges were going for these workshops and things like that but, during that judiciary transformation, it was everybody, from the security guards, the cleaners, plus the judges you enter mingle. So for me, the humanness of looking at just people you're working with, irrespective of their stature, so the judges or the lower cadre, just treating them well and treating them as human. So that is another thing that shaped quite a bit and the work ethic that the guy had and he's a really brilliant mind. So within the you look at the judgments that he's written within the, so he's moved.
Speaker 3:He was heading that judiciary transformation unit within the judiciary. I'm glad he's now a court of appeal judge. I'm hoping in my lifetime at some point he becomes the chief justice of the judiciary of Kenya. Who's?
Speaker 2:professor.
Speaker 3:Joel Ngugi.
Speaker 2:I think I've heard his name a couple of times In the corridors of justice. That's how they speak In the corridors of justice's how they speak.
Speaker 3:The corridors of justice yeah, let me not be slightly controversial, because because he was, but this is, this is. This is a personal, my personal experience, my personal experience with him because he was among the least, because at some point some people had qualified to be court of appeal judges, but for a long time they weren't taken to. I think when this regime came, they're the ones who streamlined the whole process.
Speaker 3:The former president had not assented to it. It brought a push and show of all. They didn't appoint a number of people to be court of appeal judges, but I'm glad they now are. But, I'm sure they're doing amazing things for this country Very nice.
Speaker 2:Yes, and you served there for over three years.
Speaker 3:Yes, because I joined at around 2015. 2012. And then in 2015,. That is now how I got back to the judiciary, to SCI. Yeah, Because, yeah, at that point I'd done.
Speaker 4:I started doing my master's while at the judiciary, yeah, while at the judiciary, yeah.
Speaker 3:And I don't know whether let me call it politics, some bit of politics within, because at that time there was quite some. The chief justice, it was all over the news and there was a fight between the chief justice, and so there was quite a bit of and who were found were either we'll call it collateral damage, stray bullets. Friendly fire it collateral damage, stray bullets. Friendly fire or collateral? Damage the guys who are closing all the loopholes it was a really great moment for me, like maybe looking at the way startups work or whatever when you're getting founders.
Speaker 3:In my view, even if you're getting maybe an engineer or something, it would be good to get somebody who's quite immersed himself within the space that domain space yeah and for me, that is what judiciary was. New to me at that time.
Speaker 3:But I learned quite a lot and I could get pain points, pain points for, for, for, and even when I joined C4D much later, there was a time during either the second innovation week or something like that, I now managed to get into some justice fellowship and it was from the ideas and the learnings and the pain points within judiciary.
Speaker 2:So where is this fellowship course from?
Speaker 3:It's called Hill Innovating Justice, so they normally run yearly summit or event. Yeah, they have a summit, so they run a cohort of entrepreneurs within the justice, innovating within the justice space so at some point there was some bit of entrepreneurship and they were calling it family justice or something yeah yeah, so that is how much later, looking back, you're like, had I not been in this space I wouldn't have known. Oh, this problem intricacies of justice within the justice space.
Speaker 2:This problem intricacies of justice within the justice space yeah, but uh, not quite a bit, and it was an interesting time. So you came back to c4d lab, computing for development lab. You will find me there as uh and you come as lead. Actually, when you were coming in, I was just actually leaving.
Speaker 3:So you see the, the stories, the, the, the. The time I looked at the story with Nanda and whatever I was like, so I was coming to replace Nanda At that point. Nanda is jacking and they needed somebody to either. Either there was a project that Profuema had, but it was trying to fix this number of things, and that is how I also I'll find.
Speaker 2:Nanda to tell the other story, because in that podcast he was a bit diplomatic and even me. Actually I was on my way out. Uh, maybe so many people didn't know I was serving there as a volunteer. I did a lot of things actually, uh, as you had, you know, sharing with nanda. Um, yeah, and that's the day that's actually the year we were we did our first, first innovation because that that that is now how it is.
Speaker 3:We met and you really did an amazing job. By the way, come to think about it and cause the back story a bit of the back story. I got it from the podcast, but the meetings- the meetings and you're our secretary doing. I go through my emails and I still take the we're part of the team together.
Speaker 2:I mean, my email was shut off because I left, but of course there are some of the emails that are my personal email.
Speaker 3:For me, most of it were the personal emails.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it was crazy, man, like if that was the energy until today and everyone could enjoy the results of what we did. But I'm happy that Innovation Week has become a thing in all the counties, so you see, for me you know the way you could.
Speaker 3:Not many people may give you the accolades, not many people, but you go home, sleeping, sleeping, nice. You're getting fulfilled because there is something. It may not be attributed to you, no one may not really care, but for us who are down that route together, talking about bringing Soul Singer, I remember that time bringing it was Paul, I don't know if it was Paul Harris so quite a number of guys and the amazing work that he's doing, because it's an almost how should I put it?
Speaker 3:maybe the term has just skipped my mind but I'll get back to it but looking at what, it reminds me of the judiciary. So developing at that time, the structures are not there, very few people. I'll get back to it. But looking at what, oh, it reminds me of the judiciary so developing at that time. The structures are not there, very few people, because even graduates with computer-related bits within the judiciary now were quite few at that time.
Speaker 3:I'm glad right now that transformation document. They employed a huge chunk. They now focused on even application developers. So the need and you now see there is electronic filing and whatever right now and people are using it.
Speaker 2:Now the e-cities yes you like, lit some fire that now at least you contributed in the whole, and you know what actually that tells me when I think about all this, because everyone I talk to there's always this analogy that things can be done, things actually could get done and things actually could be fixed. I don't know, it's just like by design, but sometimes you can't do too much up to a certain level. You're like, you know you are limited at this point. I don't know it's just like by design, but sometimes you can't do too much Up to a certain level. You know you are limited at this point. And even using C4D scenario, when I look at it it's like the most successful startups that we have hosted was just that year I was there, or two years. I was there One year and six seven months.
Speaker 2:And even today they are part of the ecosystem.
Speaker 2:We have talked to some of them and you can go and watch how they shared and what they're doing and how many people they have been able to employ, because for me, I feel Africa as a whole we're not Kenya we need more entrepreneurs or we need more businesses that actually are growing, thriving, profitable, scaling, and that's why I was ready to go and help figure out how do we do that.
Speaker 2:And sometimes it's really hard because even and big up, by the way to people like Dr Omwansa, professor Wayema brilliant mind, no doubt, and even articulating issues, getting things moving, and these guys actually were a bit upfront with what is happening and they knew how to navigate the structures. But even for them, given where they are in life and all that, I can understand why they cannot go up to a certain level. And you see, when you are, you are really self-driven and focused, you really want things done, things done, and you are ready to go all the way right. And I wish still. I feel like there is a lot that needs to be done, no doubt, and even you know, generation after generation, we need to do more.
Speaker 2:And the reason is very simple the world is changing and the way things are happening. We're always 10 to 15 years behind technology-wise, regardless of what we think Kenya is. Imagine now other countries like Malawi, benin, togo, swazil, switzerland, which is now a swatini you're like man.
Speaker 2:If we feel that and we're here and everyone is looking at kenya like what? Kenya is weird, then there's more that needs to be done and and, and maybe some of these guys will need whatever you said lighting that spark. So I leave you there at C4D, of course, and you are leading events, you know, and how was that experience for you?
Speaker 3:or also, you were doing the masters, so it was easier for you, because for me I had already, by the time I was joining, I had already completed my masters so by the time I was joining, I'd already completed my master's. So by the time I was joining I was already done with my master's. But the way the uni structure is, you see, now I was employed to be a programmer, senior ICT senior programmer.
Speaker 2:within the Change, the look and feel.
Speaker 3:Within ICT. So I was like on this other side on quote unquote secondment to C4D so. I'm reporting to the school, because it was the school that was doing it.
Speaker 2:School of Physical Science.
Speaker 3:No, the School of Computing.
Speaker 2:School of Computing.
Speaker 3:So Professor Odongo was the one who was signing, so I'm employed the same way, like maybe Nanda. Nanda is a graduate assistant, but working this other side of C4D, because C4D was anchored within the school, so I was also a senior programmer but, now working on this other side. But now, as I told you, for me it was partly learning a lot, but I wanted to get into academia, so it was maybe some slightly easier route too.
Speaker 3:yeah, but now within the academic institutions you may find there could be some disconnect between academic staff and an academic staff. So you may find you're here working with other you're a senior programmer, but there is there is a maybe a graduate assistant or tutorial fellow. Either way your perks could be different, you could be doing way above whatever is on that. But whatever it is you're getting, isn't that? It's not convincing. So I was like at that time is when there was a Garissa University attack. So I was like I would apply to any university in Kenya except just Garissa. At that time I wanted to transition into, but at that time I started now my PhD.
Speaker 2:Okay, yes, still at the university or somewhere else.
Speaker 3:So at that time my thought process was the PhD was quite an expensive venture in my view. At that time you have to do it by research. So I was like if at all I get funding to do that, I'll do it there. Because it would be more than a mil. Oh, PhD costs that much. It would be at SEI.
Speaker 2:So if at all somebody would pay that well, and good, and I know guys spent 10 years doing that PhD.
Speaker 3:Well and good. But if not, since it's still by research, I could still do it.
Speaker 2:So when you do it by research means that the research funds they owe.
Speaker 3:Not necessarily because by research for coursework it's like you'll go to class and then maybe for some semesters or something like that, and then you come do the actual research. But by research alone you actually don't go to class. So you'll be either defending the proposal you're reading, you're working with your supervisors on a particular topic. So you see by that, whether you're doing it this or that side, it'll still be the same research so to speak, in a different place maybe it'll be slightly less.
Speaker 3:In another place it'll be more. So that was my only bit. So I enrolled in Jaramogi, but they're really having great faculty. There is Professor Rodrigues.
Speaker 2:Is there one who went to start computing there? I guess?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so he went the other side. That's the one guy.
Speaker 2:I didn't find there. Actually, when I was joining, I saw his office. For me actually. I visited the school and then joined. So I saw Professor Rodrigues I think he was in sabbatical, he was next to Christopher Moturi's office.
Speaker 3:Yes, At least you remember those offices. It's interesting, so for me it would be. I'm actually working there but, for me because I was the one coughing out my tuition. I wouldn't cough the one minute. But in a different place I could do it. So because I needed I knew I needed the PhD, I did it, got a place with great faculty and I'm grateful to God.
Speaker 2:How long did it take you to do the PhD?
Speaker 3:I registered in 2015. Because now for this it'll be. I registered in 2015,. I graduated 2020. Yeah. But now it wasn't because I now came this other side. There was some bit of gap, so it was like, if at all it was full-time, I would have taken about three years.
Speaker 2:Less time, yeah, less time, but but I know guys actually take a long time. It could depend. There are some commitments here or there.
Speaker 3:So there are lots commitments here or there, so there are lots of dynamics by there within the academy, and then you are grown up, you have a family. Yeah, so there are at some point like 2015. After that it was like yeah, it's supposed, I'm planning for a wedding the following year.
Speaker 2:So there are particular. Almost the same time you planned for a wedding, almost the same time you planned for yes, yes, yes, I remember, I remember it was, but C4D was also.
Speaker 3:I really learnt a lot and what an a hub or an incubation hub could do within a learning institution. So for me it was a, a great model and that is the drive, or the visioning that I came with. This other side, yeah, because at least either for you, ananda, you're big on the community and you could, it comes easy for you and you could patch up these other things. There are those. There are definitely problems within the academic structure, so to speak, navigating it and all, and it's the same challenges. Maybe I'm facing this other side, but at least as long as there is progress, for me that is, even if it's just time navigate.
Speaker 2:No, I mean one thing I learned from the university, and I think I shared even when we had this chat with Nanda, is that any project can be done at the university. It's just that there are those, I think, more gatekeepers or guys who are a bit experienced with the structure and you'll never see them a lot. They know when they should show up and when they show up, the show stops.
Speaker 3:And the only way we were able to navigate most of these things is through Professor Oema and for Dr Mwansa.
Speaker 2:Also used Professor Oema acumen in relation with Professor.
Speaker 3:Mwansa.
Speaker 2:That's the only way we were able to navigate. Come up with a strategy, invite the DGs, get things moving. Innovation Week and one thing I'm thankful about is when I hear 47 counties of this country are exploring that model and when even Dr Mwansa, through Kenya, do the Innovation Week.
Speaker 3:I see guys all over Africa coming for that and I feel okay, oh it's not lost, because for me and how I normally look at it, in as much as maybe the structures here could not maybe work or not work per se, but either they are taking they are slower than you would want, or the impact may not be as great, or it may not be taking the approach that you would wish.
Speaker 3:I'm grateful he is now at a higher pedestal, so to speak, and they're now doing quite a lot in just sparking that, and he's the great guy in either convening and navigating the spaces because he could be gifted in that and for me, the period that he's served as the ceo kenya, there's quite, there's quite a lot of activity and progress and building that ecosystem in a way. So, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm more hopeful I'm more hopeful in, in the, in the ecosystem and yeah yeah, I think it's better days to come for sure, for sure.
Speaker 2:So you serve there at C4D Lab, but of course as the lead programmer for the university for a couple of years and apply for your PhD. But on the side, I think there are like three startups that you add and I don't know what they do but you can tell us. There's Muetu Solutions, which has been running since 2008, and then there is formalia limited, which is started running 2016. Well at the university what is like consulting for?
Speaker 3:software. So for the mw2, mw2, mw2 technologies, it was software. So much of either the gigs you'd get, on whether it's development or application or building, because at some point I built some fee management system for a school and things like that. So for that one it has been either the Mwetu solutions because starting second year, because it was around 2008. After first year year.
Speaker 3:So most of the website, web application, software gigs it was mostly as muay to technologies yeah, and then, as I was talking about the family, it was, there was no doubt family justice yeah solution yeah it was just an sms platform and thanks to the Africa's Talking, because in both of them the Vua and even we're doing quite a bit on the Africa's Talking and for me, even the innovations it's mostly the very simple things.
Speaker 3:I mostly even don't go for maybe much of the web apps and whatever it's, just solutions to exactly whatever it is and in our resources sms for me works. You'll find most of my solutions are mostly 2g's just solutions yes, as a mess first or things like that, to get things done, because the challenge at that time for the judiciary having spent time the other side. So come 2016, there is this open call for Hill Justice. Yeah, it's a Dutch based organization, but they have an incubation in Nairobi they've been supporting quite a number of startups within the Justice space.
Speaker 3:Yeah so, family Justice, our own personal experiences. My dad passed on in 26 2006. Yeah. But the process of getting it's called succession, the succession process, has to go through the court. Yeah. So a person passes on, even if you have a will or something like that, all the members in the family you have to go to court, stand before a judge and say we've agreed to share this in this manner.
Speaker 3:Ah, yes, so it's a simple process, but not many people this manner. Yes, so it's a simple process, but not many people know that. Yeah, so that time lots of brokers or even today, I think lots of brokers are in the system. Ah, will, it's a very difficult thing, we will do it for you, but now I'm here in, maybe I'm here in Mombasa, yeah, but it has to be in the high court where that property is mostly so like for me.
Speaker 3:I come from Busia. My dad passes on any property or something. We'll need to file that succession case and go to Busia in person. Had I been having maybe a relation in the States or something those days, they had to come in person, maybe right now with Zoom and whatever. But all of you have to be in before a judge in the same room.
Speaker 3:And he's asking each of you. So those days when the judge let's say there is the notice of court not sitting. So I've spent time, taken leave, traveled all the way to Busia, Traveled all the way to Busia and you find the judge is not there so you see the time, resources and all that so that was purely what Fama Leah was doing.
Speaker 3:It was to help keep track of just court cases in just SMS. In case a judge is not sitting, an SMS is sent to all the people tagged on that case they'll get, and then you see for the status of the case. It's a very short thing. It's like this case came for mention. Maybe today, the next hearing date, is this, only that knowing such things or but, you have to appear so that is on the appearing, is that?
Speaker 3:But another thing maybe if you're interested in a particular case but you don't know what happened, maybe your lawyer has gone to court, but you yourself you're interested in that case, but you have to get it from the lawyer. So it was like you can get that information. At least you could text, send a short code, sms and then get the status of that case just via SMS. That was purely what Famalia was trying to do we ran the pilot in Kiambu.
Speaker 3:But for the business model, for me it was more like the spark. It is the government that is meant to be doing this thing for its citizens. I see I'm actually doing it. So we were partnering, so by me developed a case management system that at that time was working within the Kiambu law courts. It's managing the internal court processes but litigants can still access the thing. So that was how it was working. But now you see, from a business model, kind of thing we wouldn't we are doing when the government wants now to do that thing, it's their mandate. So for me it was more of like the spark for it.
Speaker 2:Yes, it can be done so right now.
Speaker 3:I'm happy the government actually is doing the electronic thing. So for me, for Famalia, that is how we got the HEAL. Innovation Fellowship you win the fellowship. Yes, so we went to the Netherlands did the, so they supported the initial bit of that.
Speaker 2:Very nice and then you, of course, you defend your PhD for the defense.
Speaker 3:That came much later because now I switched. So, as I was telling you as much as I was this other side, I wanted to get into academia. So the 2016, I applied for a tutorial fellow's job in Technical University of Mombasa. Thank God, I get it still doing this hill thing?
Speaker 2:yes, so I came, thank God, I get it. Oh okay, still doing this hill thing?
Speaker 3:yes, oh nice so I came the initial bit, because now the hill ran from that around 2016 to 2017 okay so I was doing it from. So I came at least I was teaching a number of days, so I was doing it in Machakos and Kiambu. So some days of the week I come to Machakos Kiambu. So some days of the week I come to Machako's Kiambu. But much of it is just the court people who are actually working on the beat.
Speaker 2:Interesting, because that's when I didn't hear much about you. Even online it was not that much, but you know. So it ends up becoming where now you become, starting your journey as a teacher.
Speaker 3:Or a lecturer, but I normally introduce myself at times just as a teacher. I don't know, it could be a terminology thing. It could be a terminology thing.
Speaker 2:But it's the same. You know, I try to tell people who are lecturers that the biggest career that you can have, that is even blessed, is being a teacher. It's a noble profession, and even everyone at some point they are teachers.
Speaker 2:And even this went all the way to Jesus Christ, experiencing this world. So, as a lecturer, that's where your journey started, as a tutorial fellow, and you've done good for yourself, man. I look at you and I'm like how did you get to do all this? How has that experience been? Do you miss some fascinating kids that actually even don't know they're really smart? And you look at them, you're like what, man, if you know what you can do with what, how smart you are sure, sure, sure, sure, there is, there is, there is.
Speaker 3:There are a lot of fascinating things yeah but, as I was saying, I think I could be wrong. Looking back, you see, you're nostalgic or we are nostalgic about SEI and the way things ran there. And then you come, or maybe I'm working, maybe even at the C4D, and then I come to the Technical University of Mombasa. All these public universities have different dynamics. They're big universities, like you could be in Chiromo, but even you don't know the principal. There are all these schools, but there are places where you could walk to the whole university could be closer together.
Speaker 3:So there are both advantages and disadvantages. Had I been, maybe in SEI I may not be the chair of department so to speak, but like I'm the professor okay, Lord, go home, SEI wherever it is.
Speaker 4:I am right now, so I'm a chair of department, so it's a different dynamic, so to speak.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but an interesting thing, quite a number of like. My co-founder in the Vua Solutions is my former student. Oh. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 3:So this side I came. I teach BBIT, bachelor of Business and IT. Information Technology Technology yeah. Though within our university it's best at the school of business. Yeah, so I'm a resident sort of computing lecturer within the school of business yeah but it goes also the blend. I did an mba and also the phds in business information system, so there is that mix, but there is something having created a culture. You see the way I was talking about. Maybe I'm single or something yeah the people who join after a particular time yeah the people who join in after a particular time.
Speaker 3:They, they if they find a particular culture already. You get to first year and then you look at the projects that people in fourth year have done. You're like, wow, I can. It motivates you to do more.
Speaker 3:It motivates you to do more, it sparks some curiosity in you to see. But if you're the trailblazers or they aren't charting the path, you may be timid at first. To you're not, not. There is that imposter syndrome in a way. Or you're not sure about yourself, you're not sure of your capabilities or something like that. But if at all you find a community, yeah ah.
Speaker 2:MK was here.
Speaker 3:MK was here. Oh, these guys. Ah, ngei is here. Oh, I don't know there is Derek. Oh, I don't know there is Derek. Oh, I don't know there is. They're doing amazing things. So you're like, by the time you're joining, you know these are the capabilities and I could even surpass. Yes, but now when you're the first one trying to chat, only outliers would be the ones, so a good majority. So that is the culture we are trying to we are yeah we are trying to.
Speaker 3:We are trying to build, and now with support for, like, when you're having events and encouraging more of these students to join that bit of the community. It's in the community that you learn quite a bit of these things or even maybe the programming in class. It's not. You're just taught the very fundamentals of stuff, but now much of these other things you learn it either from the community or from your peers, Because it's hey how did you do this? The peer learning is a lot more impactful and practical.
Speaker 2:It's different from how you don't learn it to pass, you just learn it because you're curious To know the skill and all that. So it's a different mode. Learn it to pass. You just learn it because you're curious. Yeah, to know the skill and all that yeah.
Speaker 3:So it's a different mode, so to speak.
Speaker 2:So how does this Bay Hub, which is Blue Economy Innovations Hub, start? Because last time now we touched base and I don't know even how I knew you were in Tumai. I'm not sure I don't know. Did I? I can't remember well? I'm not sure I don't know, did I?
Speaker 3:I can't remember well, but you are in Mombasa, or even I don't know how we meet. I can't remember well.
Speaker 2:But you're telling me, there is this business innovation hub, which is Bay Hub, economy innovation that you are running at the Technical University of Mombasa. Me, I'm thinking, maybe you are running that Kumbay on the other side you're also a lecturer not only a lecturer, but now, when I meet you, maybe a few months or it's a few months afterwards you are like head of department yes, but I've been here for quite a while since 2016, september so after C4D.
Speaker 3:I just came to teach but from C4D. I've seen what C4D can do in a higher learning institution. Yes, and then for me it's that community, a conducive space for co-creation of solutions. We have C4D. There is the IB's iLab. You'll find either Chandaria Innovation Center within. Ku.
Speaker 3:They could, they have, I think, D-Hub or something like that. You go to universities abroad, the MIT's. There is the D-School. More than one innovation hub iLab In SA all these vids it is there is the D school More than one innovation hub. Yes, in SA, all these VITS, uct, all of them have hubs, labs, whatever it is you may call them, but it's a platform for co-creating solutions in the space. So I come to TUM and I'm like I should, from the C4D experience.
Speaker 3:We should just set up a place where you could create this stuff, shock on me. I think it's the same thing as the other side. So the politics within, whether universities or whatever, at times it's sad, but at times there are particular places. As you're saying, you're having these great ideas, but if it's not pushed by either a doctor, or a professor it doesn't make sense.
Speaker 3:It's so it could be the same same idea, but by whoever. So part of even the, the doctorate or whatever. So I was doing it, but I would have started even it way earlier. But because you're not a doc, or something, because now it's until 2020, when I was, I was a doctor. It was easier to try. But even at that point there are lots of internal politics. Just getting a room, it's different or whatever. So at that point even started it like a virtual, because ideally it's not a space, yeah.
Speaker 3:It's bringing what I was calling the quadrihealics, it's just not academia. So bring together academia, bring together private sector, the actual users and even government in the space, civil society, to co-create solutions. The solution could have, could be more impactful. So that is the thesis that we are having. So what would make the hub different from C4D, from?
Speaker 2:what is the? Difference for us.
Speaker 3:So at that point the university, technical university of Mombasa, on one end it touches the sea on one end.
Speaker 3:So blue economy was a perfect fit for us. Yeah, so we we didn't call it maybe a lab or an incubation center, very specifically, because an incubation I don't have the resources to at that point to incubate or to, but I was just. I needed a platform where we are co-creating this. And then I'm coming from a computing background, so blue economy seemed it's a different. But I look back, I'm more in the fisheries. I had some love for fish and even the project that I did in undergrad was on a fish farming or something like that.
Speaker 3:So out of it. There is a great. So there are lots of great researchers in tomb there's a doctor called dr cosmos munga. He's in the fisheries and marine. He's a really specialist in that but packaging that within the fisheries and marine ecosystem. He's revered so I was like anything so peak strategic uh leads in these other thematic areas within the blue economy yeah so in fisheries there is a lead in maritime transport in the coastal tourism. Wow in environment. And then we, we can we co-create, yes so along those conversations, is where support now?
Speaker 3:because at the initial stage support either startups that are in this specific space yeah so, like the kuzafriza, you'll be having maybe the podcast with deno, yeah, so there are quite a number of startups within the blue economy. So there is a guy called Morganics. They're doing seaweed and creating fertilizer out of it. So that was the drive. And, being within an academic institution, there are quite a number of hubs that are there, so, like the Sote or the Swahili Box.
Speaker 2:Close the Gap.
Speaker 3:What was paining me is most of them. It's our students who go to those apps.
Speaker 3:But it's only the outliers, the guys who will push themselves to go there. What if we're having something within where now more people it's a space within that a lot more people could the way I was telling you, a spark, you'll see something after 40 years that it could ignite something within you. That has been the goal. It's not been an easy journey, even maybe internally for some quarters or something like that, getting space or something like that we could partner with. We ran some Solid West hackathon, but now in partnership with Close the Gap at that time or now with Sote in the Blue Economy investment summits and things like that. So lots of collaborations and partnership with other ecosystem players to just take it ahead. So, like the Vua solution, it's a startup, so I was creating. It's a startup, so I was creating it as a platform where now other people you could plug into this platform and figure out how it could be of benefit to you and impactful to the society.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, and the interesting part, matthew, is that Vua economy is a sleeping giant. When you think about it for a minute, I think we heard off the camera and off the recording conversation on how big this could be and none of us actually could wrap around why people are not exploring all these opportunities, and maybe guys can tell us under the comments. For me it was just a break and mortar kind of business. If I think about Dar es Salaam or Tanzania, people want to go to the island and I'm sure even here in Kenya we have some islands. I know people who travel to Lamu just to wind down and have a good time, and I know also places like Miami where they do cruise ship business, rights entertainment, or even in a smaller scale they do cruise ship business where it's entertainment, or even in a smaller scale they do ocean parties, some nice, I don't know boats where you go just have some packages, and these are actually just to stimulate the economy, because in that there are people who are serving the drinks, there are DJs there, there are people who may be serving some you know ghost cuisine. In that economy you can find a lot of things happening. All Mombasa is known for is during December or Easter holiday, people come here, go to the beach and that's it. Maybe I'm just ignorant.
Speaker 2:And when it comes to exploring the ocean and the fishery and all these days, so much, what for you? Is it something that actually gets you starting Vua at this point, whereby now you are adding value, addition, export? And one example is how people fish tuna and package it, and even we are looking at how do you package it and add value. If you sell tuna here, you'll sell at X. If you sell it far away from here, just add some few value and preserve it, you add 10 X. If you take it to Nairobi, maybe 100 or 200 X. Why is it so difficult to navigate these waters?
Speaker 2:I know Kusa Freezer is doing an amazing job in. How do you preserve? How do you bring it to the dry land? How do you preserve it after you don't sell everything in the evening? How do you do your fishing? And then maybe for the week you don't have to go to the ocean every single day. How do you serve it fresh? So there are it's white and black. There's a lot of opportunities that could be explored. What is the biggest challenge in this marine economy?
Speaker 3:As you rightfully started, blue economy. For me it has been there. It's a buzzword for now and there is quite some bit of focus towards it, but since the days of our great grandfathers, just taking advantage sustainably of any water resources would be termed blue economy. So, whether the fishing, the maritime transport, the shipping, the port that is here and all the tread and all that is handled by the maritime shipping, and then there is the coastal marine conservation, the mangroves, carbon how is the carbon created? Because the blue carbon would be. It is removing lots and lots of CO2 compared to even terrestrial, terrestrial forests and things like that.
Speaker 3:So the opportunities are immense, so to speak, and there's been a lot of focus. So government like there are quite a number of projects and programs that have been running, whether by development partners, government itself. There is a world bank project called cancer that is meant to stimulate that. Yeah, so lots of partners, whether it's venture builders yeah like even for vuor.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was part of a fellowship by bfa global. Oh, shout out to them. So they picked 30 fellows from all across Africa and you are to partner amongst yourselves and come up with new ventures within the blue economy space, but doing that so they have a climate smart aspect to it.
Speaker 3:So, whether it will be a solution within the tourism environment or fisheries- but, I was more inclined to fishermen and fisheries, but other than whatever it is, our project maybe is working on. There is lots of opportunities and we just can't do enough of it. Looking at it, maybe as a systems approach to it, there's a startup that we are partnering with. It's called Kumbatia Seafood. They get tuna from an island called Kiwayu, but right now they've expanded to almost all the islands in Lamu. So, whether Amu, Kiwayu, kiunga, faza, pate, they're getting fish from there and they're giving a premium to the fishermen.
Speaker 3:But for them they've moved a notch Because the quality, even if you want to take it either to now Nairobi or for exports right now they're getting into the export market the quality has to be top notch, so it's sushi grade for that. So they have to empower the infrastructure, they have to empower their fishers with ice. They go with ice while fishing on their expeditions. They'll have to train them. So there are lots of training on how they got the fish, how they bleed and all that. And then now moving that, because now they transport even just using buses, but now the ice and all that to me, how it's packaged to the other side. So that could be one aspect.
Speaker 3:And then the mindset, especially of, because we could be looking at at this point, I'm looking at some disconnect, so to speak yeah there is a way a vc looks at, uh, at the startups, yeah, and then there is a way so like, maybe for vuor we could be more from an impact perspective, because we're only working with around 40 fishers, so much of the impact on them because they're serving our platform. We're partnering with Kumbatia, as Kumbatia pays these fishers automatically a particular percentage either 10, 20 is served for them Because fishing is a seasonal thing. So about six or less months of bumper harvest and some other ones nothing.
Speaker 3:And there are lots more of chamas. And all that for women, but now men, not necessarily. So for us it was more geared towards them, but not those fishers who fish sustainably. So, like for tuna fishing, it's only you're catching one at a time, but now the fishing reels are quite expensive. We'd get one for 80k or more. So like even in our pilot part of whatever it is we did, it's give credit to this, but out of their savings. So they serve. So the discipline to serve is not there and shout out to Chura and Chooms. I told some the time I saw that there are lots of these either loan apps and more of a loaning than the saving culture.
Speaker 2:So Chooms is more of saving than just loans.
Speaker 3:They don't even do loans. I doubt, I doubt if they're doing loans so it's more of saving and either getting returns from your savings, so it'll be better returns than the bank Because it's more of a money market.
Speaker 3:So they're partnering with a money market fund where at least you're getting some interest out of your savings, yeah, so for encouraging just that culture, not just yes it's a game changer, so it was almost the same bit about these guys you could serve, but now the discipline to serve is where either the fishers are not having. So that is the point that we're coming with as well, because so far there is a lot of impact that it has created on this, because you'll find in a day they could spend more than 5K on fuel. But if they just don't have that fuel it's a problem. But the guy has saved over 20K, so it'll be nice to give him part of the money, but he'll just repay it, so to speak.
Speaker 2:You mentioned that it's six months of harvesting. Let me call it that way for fishers and six months of seasonal, you can't do much. Is this castigated by the tooling? Is it castigated by the weather?
Speaker 3:It's mostly weather, because the sea is rough, is it? Castigated by the weather. What is the challenge? It's mostly weather. It's mostly weather Because the sea is rough. So in Swahili they say there is kusi and kaskazi.
Speaker 3:Or the scientific ones they call them, I don't know some monsoon winds, so I don't know southwest or north monsoon winds. So like right now between either November and around, so let's say, September, but the peak could come from either November, December into around March. April would be. The seas are calmer so they could go deeper into the sea, but after that the seas become rough, so much of the fishing they'll just do either foot fishing or in the near shore waters, so there could be more on the other side that they could get.
Speaker 3:So it'll be different species that they get. But even if they get, the seas are rough and there are quite a number of even seasonal fishers. During those low months they don't even go for fishing. But you see, you still have needs that you'll need the financial life keep moving. So whether you're taking kids to school or healthcare needs or things like that, yeah, it's still so, so.
Speaker 2:So if I had a startup and and I could provide maybe the tooling, which means maybe better boats, but, you know, even educate them on um. Okay, I cannot talk about over fishing here because at the end of the day, when I look at it, it's still small fishing, under fishing, rather yeah, it is it could actually change the dynamics because that means you could go a bit further into the sea where you know it is allowed and you could still do fishing. Maybe cut that into instead of six months it becomes nine months, maybe three months of no fishing, according to experience and how. Maybe you understand, because you have more info and understanding of the landscape more than I do. Do you think that would really fly?
Speaker 3:Maybe partly because the other thing, a mindset, or let's say, the fishery, is this side. Yeah, you'll find the fisheries in inland maybe, like Victoria, is quite more advanced, or they're looking at it more from the business, from the business sense and all that. I don't know. Maybe the hunch that I'll have. There are also quite a number of Wanitoa Pemba, either from TZ or whatever.
Speaker 3:I don't know if it's the skill of fishing, that they have a better skill so they could come here and even they fish from this. They come fishing our waters, quite a number of, even the, the people owning boats they could employ, um, to come do fishing for them. But now they remember they'll receive the cash, just keep it. But within that fishing season the guy could go home with, even over in terms of in the region of millions. Yes, so I don't know whether it's a mindset thing, a training thing, a skills thing for some of them. So it's. There are lots of dynamics to it, so there are those who are actually doing it as a business aggressively and in a particular way.
Speaker 3:But you know today, but there is lots of potential, and then you'll find the industrial fishing will definitely be way more, more, more, more. How should I put it? It would bring in definitely more progress.
Speaker 2:So of course, definitely, it sounds like even there is some mindset education shift that needs to happen. But of course, for Wapemba and Zanzibar you know they are in Ireland and I think for the generation and generation that could be the only source of living that they have been used to. So it's generational, which I call apprenticeship.
Speaker 2:I'm not a believer of mentorship, as I keep saying and the reason is that when you learn something by seeing how it's done, you internalize it more and you can actually innovate around it. So, Matthew, what is the next thing? I don't want to ask you about the ring on the finger. But uh, how is family? How is the family?
Speaker 3:we, thank we, thank we, thank god, thank god we're doing great. That's true. You told me off the mic some time back, but uh, you told me off the mic some time back, but let's leave it for now, I'm curious.
Speaker 2:How you're waiting and how you promise. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 3:I think I get it. It's life, it's life.
Speaker 2:It's life.
Speaker 3:I'm really grateful. Yeah, yeah. Mar wife has been a great support sister. The same frequency of stupidity, that's how I call it. The same frequency of crazy, or the same frequency of madness because you have done amazing, amazing stuff we met after, but Medicine or business.
Speaker 2:No, no, I was doing microbiology, chiromo still yeah, yeah, microbiology, there's semiconductor Microbiome, oh nice.
Speaker 3:Biotechnology, though we started dating way after campus. But yeah, it has been a great support system.
Speaker 2:Guys, you're here, you go to the university.
Speaker 3:So you get a couple of degrees and look around.
Speaker 2:you know it might come in handy Even. I don't know, if yeah, a couple of guys I can mention here but let me not mention we're not mentioning, but you know, I know some of them who have gotten their wives there.
Speaker 2:Including the doctor himself, Dr Mwansa. But yeah, it's a good thing and that's how life is supposed to be. And I think, shout out to all the women who stand by their men. And I know, you know, relationship, marriage is not really easy per se and to some maybe it's easy, but of course it has its own challenges. You have self-doubt and you have a partner who actually tells you man, you know you'll get this PhD, even if it's after five years. When you get it it will change and actually it can contribute more. You don't get frustration when you want to start a hub and that alone actually can actually give you some strength. If you have children, there's someone actually who gives them motherly love and support. And even for the ladies on the other side, having a husband is a good thing, because life sometimes can be a bit chaotic to some extent. So shout out men and I thought I should say that for all the married men Sometimes you know you don't celebrate married men, it's always about, you know.
Speaker 2:Mother's Day, Girl Child Day, Women International.
Speaker 3:Women's Day.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So everyone who is stuck with the relationship shout out to you and keep at it. Family is a very important thing. So what's next for uh, hub, bay, hub. What's next for voa? Uh, and what's next for tomb? Technical university of mombasa.
Speaker 3:Now that you're the hod, uh, for me it's taking taking a step at a time. Definitely, the things would love to happen, maybe a lot faster, but within government, so to speak, it's a change within. I call myself an entrepreneur. The guys would want to be an entrepreneur within the government institutions within.
Speaker 3:The systems, because quite a number of people are like why wouldn't this be? You know the challenges with uni or whatever, so you could just start it at the side and you do a lot more at the side. But for me it is what it is. It can impact if it's within if it's within the uni. So I'm looking to more solutions, especially for, and collaborations within within, within the bay hub.
Speaker 3:Yes, to create a lot more impact to changing lives in the society, especially within this coastal space where we are. So that could be for Bay Hub and even, by extension, Technical University of Mombasa, impacting more lives For Vua. We're looking into partnerships and changing lives of just those small scale fishers. Yeah, there is a bit about looking at. You know, there is a way it may not be making the return on investment.
Speaker 3:If you're looking at it from the business case and scaling and all that. Why not concentrate on now the deep sea fishing, which could be a lot more maybe profitable, though it's quite more. You need more to to invest in, and but for me, I'm normally drawn to more of the impact of like the social economics and inclusion yeah, financial inclusion for those who are. So that is for me. It's more. I'm more driven at a personal level to to search I don't know, maybe it's through either my upbringing or but we have different ways of looking at things but at least providing more inclusion to for me the small-scale blue economy players.
Speaker 3:So, like Favua, will be getting into other players within the blue economy space but, focusing on the small scale ones.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes.
Speaker 3:Ah, interesting.
Speaker 2:So, dr Ari, yes, please talk to our viewers. If you want, you can request them to subscribe and give them the parting shot. Wow, you can look at that.
Speaker 3:Please subscribe to the called impact masters. Yeah, masters podcast, podcast, masters media media.
Speaker 2:Please subscribe to to to called Impact Masters. Impact Masters Podcast, impact Masters Media.
Speaker 3:Please subscribe to their podcasts. My parting shot try be the change that you want. All of us could give quite a bit, but let hope be the last that you could lose. You could lose every other thing, but don't lose hope Just be the change that you can be or you want to be. I think I could leave it at that Subscribe to their podcast and they're doing lots of amazing stuff.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. An amazing, amazing, amazing stuff. Thank you so much. Yes, an amazing, amazing, amazing stuff.
Speaker 2:So I've made it our cultural habits to conclude with african proverb, or proverb from africa teeth, or a proverb from Africa Teeth do not see poverty. And this proverb talks a lot about what is happening in Africa in different levels, especially the high levels that people keep eating Even where they are not supposed to be eating. So, even when circumstances are dire, people still manage to find something to smile about. That's the other side of the people, who's whatever is eaten should do more to them. And the reason why this proverb I find it really interesting for this conversation is that I believe Africa should not be where it is, but I also believe it's a collective, intentional, consistent action that will get us to where we are. And, by the way, I sound like the guy who is saying we are, and, by the way, I might sound like we are not. You know the guy who is saying we are so badly off, but the truth is me and you might not consider ourselves badly off, but the majority don't know even what they will hit this evening. So with that, I find that, whatever you are, if you ever listen to this. You have a responsibility. That one of those things that you do every day. Or even if you are a doctor, you are a professor, you are a lecturer, you are a farmer, you are contributing in that small deed that you do and through that collective action, we'll get there where we're supposed to be. If you're a leader, stop eating too much. Start seeing the poverty, because the enemy is always the poverty.
Speaker 2:Without further ado, this was Michael Kemadi, if you want MK, and it was Africa's Talking Podcast in collaboration with Impact Masters Podcasts. You can find Africa'salking APIs communication APIs on africastalkingcom, and Africa Stalking empowers business to grow and developers to build through the APIs. Sms solutions when you talk about OTP that you receive when you do transaction that is Africa Stalking solution. Voice APIs that you can create customer care or contact center, like our friend here who tried in 2010, 2009, to do IVR. Africa Stalking then wasn't a thing, but you can see the potential that we have. So we provide 2G solutions across 54 countries in Africa and we're registered in over 20 markets in Africa. Check out africastalkingcom stalkingcom. If you like podcasts, just check us out on Spotify, iheart, amazon Music, google Podcasts, apple Podcasts or any other podcast that is your favorite across the world. Until next time, have a blessed day, evening, morning, wherever you are.
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