#55 IMPACT MASTER: FINDING YOUR TECH PATH | JAPHETH OBALA

What does it take to go from coding on a phone during ferry rides to building developer tools at Microsoft? In this captivating conversation, Japheth Obala reveals his remarkable journey from Likoni, Mombasa to becoming the first engineer at Microsoft's Africa Development Center.

Japheth's story begins with a natural talent for mathematics and a dedicated teacher who became a father figure after losing his parent at age 10. His path takes an unexpected turn when security concerns prevent him from attending Garissa University—a decision that likely saved his life from a terrorist attack that would later claim 142 students.

The heart of this episode explores Japheth's obsessive self-teaching process, programming C on his Android phone during ferry commutes before he could afford a laptop. We witness how the Swahili Box tech community provided his first real coding opportunity, leading to the Andela Fellowship that connected him with global companies. Perhaps most fascinating is how a casual algorithm solution scribbled on a napkin during a dinner with Microsoft representatives launched his career at one of tech's giants.

Throughout our conversation, Japheth shares invaluable insights about building developer tools, the challenges of relocating internationally with a young family, and his philosophy on finding fulfillment in tech careers. His perspective on prioritizing craft over compensation offers a refreshing counterpoint to typical tech career narratives.

Whether you're a developer seeking inspiration, someone curious about Africa's tech ecosystem, or simply love stories of unconventional success, this episode delivers profound lessons about passion, opportunity, and the unexpected paths that shape our professional lives.

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Guest
Japheth Obala
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jobala/


Host
Michael Kimathi
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelkimathi/
X (Twitter): https://twitter.com/m_k_global

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Chapters

• 0:00 Meet Japheth Obala: From Mombasa to Microsoft
• 10:30 Early Years in Likoni and Educational Journey
• 25:42 Discovering Programming and Self-Teaching
• 42:54 Joining Swahili Box and First Coding Job
• 56:27 The Andela Fellowship Experience
• 1:10:24 Microsoft Career and Developer Tools
• 1:30:42 Building CLIs and Moving to London
• 1:42:52 Career Transitions and Returning to Kenya
• 1:51:28 Life Philosophy and Future Plans

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:04

yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Welcome once again at africa. Africa's talking podcasts, in collaboration with impact master podcasts, coming to live and direct from coastal Region of Kenya, mombasa. Mombasa is one of the cities among the five or six cities in Kenya and it's a good place to be anytime, any day. So Africa's Talking provides you developer APIs, that is, sms, ussd, data bundles, airtime. Africa Stocking empowers businesses across Africa building communication solutions think of marketing, otp solutions, call centers check out africastalkingcom. Impact Masters we are lighting impact, move us and shake us in tech across Africa. But as Impact Masters, we provide tech solutions, entertainment and with a keen eye to see what solutions do we build at scale while empowering other businesses that are building tech solutions across africa.

Speaker 1: 1:36

I'm your host, michael kemari. Call me nk ntai, and today we have an amazing guest, the man himself, the epitome, the guy who knows how to find his way out of tech. I've known this chief for quite some time now, about a few years, since 2006. Years or seven years, he has gone ahead and built a portfolio for himself, working for Andela because you are old enough to remember Andela Moving to Microsoft and proceeding to build something at Netify. But we'll cover all that, johnny. So I consider him a mover and a shaker and you know, today we share his story here, live and direct. His name is Japheth Obala Japheth. How are you? I'm good, how are you? Ah, good, good, I've been looking for you for a while now to do this.

Speaker 2: 2:50

Yeah, I guess the moving part is true for the movers and shakers. Yeah, shaking on, no, just the moving.

Speaker 1: 2:58

Yeah, you've been moving a lot and you are so swift at it. But the interesting thing is that your story is quite something. But even before we get to the tech part because I knew from the tech back in December which year were you then- how old do you mean? When we met or you had just dropped off university, yeah, 2016.

Speaker 2: 3:22

2016,.

Speaker 1: 3:23

yeah, so you were still in school or you were just dropped out.

Speaker 2: 3:27

When we met, I dropped out already.

Speaker 1: 3:30

Yeah, you can hear this. He's the guy when Mark or Elon or Bill Gates said you know, I dropped out of Harvard. He's also a son, that kind of story. But where did it all start? Where did Jafet Obala start? Where were you born? Be as specific as possible.

Speaker 2: 3:51

Right. Born and raised in Mombasa. Which part Likoni? Oh, you're from Likoni, I'm from Likoni, oh wow.

Speaker 1: 4:00

Looks like Likoni produces the best. Yeah, even yesterday we had a conversation with someone from Likoni, yeah, doing some amazing hardware stuff. I know you know the guy, dennis Okon. Yeah, I know Dennis. Yeah, amazing stuff. And before that, I think, yeah, a couple of guys also from Likoni doing some amazing stuff. Yeah, so you're born from Likoni, yeah, mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 4:21

So born and raised, essentially lived my whole life in Likoni, and then I went to primary school there. Which one is this? It's a school called the Nolinda Academy. Oh not the public one, right? Fortunately, I went to a private school, okay, and then I went to high school in Alidina Vistrum.

Speaker 1: 4:42

Ah, but I'm not a kaka. Yeah, you know, when I converse I like painting a picture of, like that journey, because, you see, right now we might see Jafet, who is a senior software engineer, but for guys who are starting up, even for the guys in the industry, it's good to know that the reason why this person thinks this way, the reason why they see they move swiftly, is because of this journey. And this is actually a border from how our billionaires and millionaires tell their story. They just run around like where did you get your breakthrough? When did you decide to become a business mongol? Or when did you get to a breakthrough? How, how, when, when, when did you decide become a business mongol or when did you do this? So we, we have like a couple of hours to do this, so don't rush through. I'm all right. Yes, yes. So primary school you go there for nursery or you went for um standard one, two plus eight uh so nursery went somewhere else.

Speaker 2: 5:43

Yeah, nursery went to A school called Consolato Primary school.

Speaker 1: 5:48

Still in.

Speaker 2: 5:48

Rizconi or yeah, yeah. So when I say Rizconi, like very specific part Called Mtongo, which is closer to the Kenya Navy base, which will be important Later in the series, it's well off actually.

Speaker 1: 6:00

It's like Much better than the main Rizconi Right no?

Speaker 2: 6:04

Not exactly, not exactly. Yeah, yeah, so that's where I was for eight years. I think I lived my best life in primary school. Okay, what was best about it? Yeah, so I don't know, it's just that I was. I remember being very happy in primary school. Yeah, yeah, I don't know, it's just that I was.

Speaker 1: 6:24

I remember being very happy in primary school. Yeah, I knew this kid was cheeky, playful or just, you know, reserved and just trying to get the best grades out of it. Always number one, you know.

Speaker 2: 6:35

A little bit of both actually. I'm by nature very cheeky. Actually, I have a lot of dad jokes, and I was also involved in a bit of sports. I had good relationships with teachers and friends, so I was generally very happy in primary school. Which sport? Football. In Kenya, there is only one sport really, if you ask me.

Speaker 1: 7:05

I talk to people who play hockey and they try to teach me what is hockey.

Speaker 2: 7:10

Well, I mean, there is football, and then there is other things, yeah, so sport by default is football.

Speaker 1: 7:16

Ah, okay, guys from Rift Valley might disagree. Like sport first is running and then, anything else, but even football. Football you run right. So you had a good relationship with your, your teachers oh, yeah, very, very much.

Speaker 2: 7:31

So, um, I was not really a teacher's first, but, uh, like there is this one teacher who was very close to uh, it's called mr riga and, um, what happened is I used to go to his house every time after classes to do maths. Oh, really, without tuition, without paying anybody, but it was tuition Without tuition fee?

Speaker 1: 7:57

Yeah, without tuition fee. Why, in particular you?

Speaker 2: 8:01

I don't know. I think what I remember is there was folks in the Upper class who were going To some fortuitous training, and then I just joined them. I said let me go and see what's happening. Then, after those guys left when they left, I was in class 7 at that time so I started going myself and then I just kept Going afterwards. So you found yourself driven. So I started going myself and then I just kept going afterwards.

Speaker 1: 8:27

So he found you self-driven, yeah, and it was impressive to him. And he also had tea every time I went there, so that helped so there was a motivation to go there for you, but did the teacher know that actually, one of the things that keeps you coming back is the tea?

Speaker 2: 8:44

Well, I was going there for the math, really, and then the tea was another advantage, hey, so we're still very good friends. I was actually at his place earlier this year, mm-hmm, so Just paying a visit, and yeah, I visited him a number of times, spent the night at his place, met his wife and kids, so we have a very good relationship. So that means it means a lot to you even after that. Yes, yeah, in fact, most people in primary school thought he was my father, because we were very close. What did your father think? Well, I lost my father when I was 10 years old, so he had passed on by that time. So he did, yeah, but my mother wasn't complaining, so she was happy with that ah, so it is very interesting.

Speaker 1: 9:30

Uh, did you go there because you feel like you needed some extra, you know, uh, tuition on math, or you just, you know, just wanted to grasp the concepts beyond just the class well, to be honest, I don't remember exactly why I started going, but maybe it's just the influence of the the other folks who are going there. Really.

Speaker 2: 9:53

But as a consequence I became very good at math From visiting.

Speaker 1: 9:56

Yeah, and that really impressed you. You loved math for that.

Speaker 2: 10:01

Yes, I did. I'm still a math nerd up to this point.

Speaker 1: 10:04

Oh right Is there any other subject of interest beyond math? Math for that, yes, I, I did. Uh, I'm still a math nerd up to this point. All right, right. Is there any other subject of interest beyond math?

Speaker 2: 10:09

um, I'll say philosophy philosophy, yeah, okay.

Speaker 1: 10:12

Okay, now I'm not surprised why you are. You're a software engineer. Yeah, because, uh, the math, rational and and philosophical way of how people perceive things, that's a good combination.

Speaker 2: 10:26

Yeah, although I must add that I only picked up philosophy like a year ago, accidentally. Actually, I tell this story to everyone who cares to ask. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 10:38

Why in particular philosophy?

Speaker 2: 10:42

Yeah. So I was going shopping with my wife when I was in London and then I came across a philosophical magazine on aesthetics, and it's the first time I read something that I felt like the author was trying to convince me in the way of thinking, because what the journal is is a bunch of experts, each one giving their own interpretation of the subject matter, and I found myself saying, yeah, I agree with that author and disagree with this other person. So that was so mind-blowing, having the same thing covered by different people. Then that's where I became very, very fascinated with philosophy. Yeah, and I've just been like in a rabbit hole since then Never come out, yeah, ah.

Speaker 1: 11:29

Yeah, philosophy is great. Man Like yeah, First time actually, I'm having a philosophical conversation with someone geared towards engineering and, yeah, some of the you know software engineering courses like in KU.

Speaker 1: 11:44

You know they are so far. You know software engineering courses like in KU. You know they also offered. You know the way you get communication and HIV aids. You know those extra courses that are not directly related to your course, but they offered philosophy course. I thought I would get that where I went to the investor but unfortunately I've been an avid you know reader and researcher of philosophy because I understand if you build something, you build for someone else beside you. So you have to understand how people perceive things, how people make decisions, how people you know see things and consume things. But anyway, we'll get deeper into that as we go.

Speaker 2: 12:24

I can just say something what philosophy has been for me has been like having a pair of glasses, like I've gotten to see things in a new perspective and sort of like appreciate things more than I think. Initially I was very indifferent to situations or things and now I have like a deeper understanding or a deeper appreciation, yeah, of, uh, of stuff.

Speaker 1: 12:48

Yeah yeah, oh, interesting, and okay, I'll ask this swally like kizushi later. Yeah, now that you say that, but if I, if I remember that I need to ask it, or if the commission leads them. So, after you finish, uh, uh, class eight, uh, how did you perform, man? Because going to the High school you mentioned earlier on Is not an easy peasy thing.

Speaker 2: 13:12

Yes, well, I didn't perform as good as expected I would perform, but it was not that bad. So I did well, though Not as good as I would have wanted.

Speaker 1: 13:25

What did you want? 500?

Speaker 2: 13:26

out of 500? We just say we thank God for Delaware. And then I was called to Aledina Vistrom. The only thing I knew about Aledina at that time Was that the former index one In our primary school we must have performed really well, though you're a bit, uh, you know, humbling, uh and modest with the results.

Speaker 1: 13:52

But you guys, if here the next one went to aldina you are, your guess is as good as mine, yeah, so so you also, like, you associated that with, like, the success of the secondary school.

Speaker 2: 14:08

Well, Alina is a good school.

Speaker 1: 14:10

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:11

So I was happy to go there. But I would say, compared to my experience with secondary school to primary school, I was way heavier in primary school than in secondary school. Why is that? I think In secondary school, with the onset of adolescence, adolescence and Not having Guidance, let me say yeah, someone Not having a male figure At that time Because my father had passed away, like when I was Way earlier. So I was mostly Very confused what do I do? And not knowing any better, is it mixed school? It's a boys' school.

Speaker 1: 14:49

It must have been very difficult for you.

Speaker 2: 14:51

Yeah, and it's a day school as well, so I used to cross the ferry every day for four years. Twice, every day for four years, yeah.

Speaker 1: 14:59

Because now Aldina is in the Mombasa mainland and you're coming from Brikoni.

Speaker 2: 15:03

Yeah, Okay, so that was quite interesting. Fun fact actually I never got an A in high school in maths. The only A I got was in KCSE.

Speaker 1: 15:17

So yeah, there's no tuition, there's no extra tuition, there's no one as friendly, no one to guide you. Did they have a counselling department?

Speaker 2: 15:26

Well, I was not a counselling case. I was just like distracted, let me put it that way, like I was not focusing on my studies. I was just like a rudderless ship, let me put it that way. So I think the messenger told me okay, you're not going to get an A in KCC, so I only got it to spite him. Then, after the KCC, I went to his office and told him yes, I got an A, so I can be petty. But yeah, that's what you did originally. Yeah, that's what I did. And what did he say? He said, yeah. He would say yeah, got an A. There's nothing else he could say.

Speaker 1: 16:01

Yeah, yeah. There's nothing else you could say yeah, yeah. So math has always been. You know the subject is so confident that you can figure it out even for yourself.

Speaker 2: 16:09

Yeah, like I've even done some self-studying after campus. Yeah, I've studied linear algebra and calculus and performed really well. This is just self-study, that isn't an assessment Just to get a better appreciation of the concepts, because you see, mathematics is like a language. It essentially describes things. The calculus describes the rights of change, stuff like that.

Speaker 1: 16:39

So just to get a better appreciation of what the formulas really mean, yeah, so I've done that as well it's an impressive way of putting it for a guy who just got an a and went to his high school to tell him you told me I'll fail in my math, but here's an a, yeah, yeah, it's easy, it's really. It should make it sound really easy and it's good, and breaking it down to parts that actually make sense to any person. Yeah, um, so what was your secret, man? Like, what was your secret with math specifically?

Speaker 2: 17:11

I have no secret really. It's more of like a natural disposition, like, say, a natural inclination towards something. Like you just find some things easier or more attractive, sort of like a pulling to something rather than having a secret recipe to share really. So, for anyone who is not good at math, I'm sorry, I don't have any advice.

Speaker 1: 17:32

Keep struggling, continue struggling. Yeah, what do you struggle with? Is it Swahili English In terms of Violet, or what did you used to struggle with?

Speaker 2: 17:44

It wasn't that interesting um, I think, well, I've not. I've not had a lot of struggles, but I think the thing that I've strived the most to be good at is, I'll say, communication.

Speaker 1: 18:06

Yeah, you're not like a guy who will always start a conversation and follow through.

Speaker 2: 18:15

For things that like. Once I get interested in something, I can be really chatty about it. But if I'm not interested, you'll probably find me very boring. I'll just sit without you this is a monologue and maybe ask questions to appear polite, not like that Interesting. So, learning to make the other person feel like they're being listened to. It's not like the communication I am the one speaking. It's more like the listening pattern. It's not like the communication I am the one speaking. It's more of like the listening pattern, helping the other person feel more listened to, because sometimes I tend to like want when we talk. Sometimes I'll leave the conversation feeling like I've said things I should have said, or rather feeling like I should have given the other person a big opportunity to speak. So that's, that's been the part that I struggled with yeah, so you overanalyze after communicating oh yeah, like I really I have to go and think about what I say.

Speaker 2: 19:17

I try, I try to be must be hard. Yeah, I mean, I try to not say too much. I try not to say not to not say too much. I try not to say not to not say too much. I'm going to try to do that in this podcast, but it's unlikely. It's different.

Speaker 1: 19:32

Yeah, like this is your story and the more people actually understand because I feel, man, you've done a lot of things that actually maybe you never thought were possible. You just say, okay, let me do it, let me try it, let me try it, and they happen. And you can imagine how many guys, not only in recording, but across the world or even across Africa, who are in that position where you were maybe a couple of years ago. Yeah, sure, so basically, this is the story. Right, you know the authentic story that's why we don't prepare so much in these conversations. The authentic story that's why we don't prepare so much in these conversations, yeah, yeah, so feel free, but I hear you, because even me, sometimes, I'll analyze after every conversation, and it's so hard.

Speaker 2: 20:11

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 20:12

Sometimes I feel like, ah, maybe I hurt someone by giving some useless example, yeah, or maybe I thought maybe guys need low level examples to really, you know, process things. I was like maybe I could have given this crazy scientific use case, yeah, but I also feel like I should have I will left another. So there is no right way to like package what you say. And then I find I I can totally, totally relate with that of analyzing. After you know and I've seen a couple of guys who really go through that I think it's not your fault, it's the way it is. And math makes it easier because math mostly are farts. It's like if zero is zero, one is one, so it's easier to relate to farts. So in high school you said you struggled with adolescence because there was no one to look up to. Did you date? Did you know someone to you know? Express yourself and try to see they will understand you from the opposite gender yeah, um, so maybe, like, maybe I should correct something.

Speaker 2: 21:16

It's not like I was struggling with adolescents, it's just that being an adolescent not having guidance, uh, it's like what to direct my energy? Yeah, so it was very. I was very distracted, like trying different things, not drugs, like now that you've said drugs, now I'm thinking about it so like going to playstation over indulging in that. So, regarding dating, I dated in my form 4, which is like the worst time to get into a relationship, but yeah yeah and uh.

Speaker 1: 21:51

Now that you said communication was hard, now I see the other part of like how do I even express myself? How do I present my me as obala, and will they even understand why I'm presenting myself these days? So also, was it a challenge for you. You know, like get butterflies.

Speaker 2: 22:08

I know I've never been there. No, I was there. Oh, you're the guy who just this is it.

Speaker 1: 22:13

Oh, nice, Nice, Then then. Then it's not like you can't communicate because you choose not.

Speaker 2: 22:21

Like I said, the communication part that I struggle with is like making the other person, like listening to the other person and not overshadowing the conversation. I don't have the problem with expressing myself. The problem is actually I over-express myself.

Speaker 1: 22:35

Oh, I see Languages English, swahili was.

Speaker 2: 22:40

English and Swahili yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:42

No, I mean, did you perform well?

Speaker 2: 22:44

Yeah, I did fairly good yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:47

Yeah okay, so you do your KCSE and you pass really well.

Speaker 2: 22:54

Yeah, did you get an A? No, I didn't get an A For the last. Yeah, there's somewhere there B, b, b plane. No, I got a B+.

Speaker 1: 23:06

B+, yeah, and then you get invited to the university which?

Speaker 2: 23:08

university did you apply to? It was actually called to Garissa University.

Speaker 1: 23:13

So you could be a guy who was already gone. Is that time or I?

Speaker 2: 23:16

remember telling you this story. So yeah, when the Garissa University attack happened, that was my court. I was supposed to be in that court. What yeah?

Speaker 1: 23:26

So you're the chosen one.

Speaker 2: 23:30

Well, I wouldn't say that we have just been lucky.

Speaker 1: 23:32

Yeah, no, there's no luck in the world man, you're where you are because you don't really believe in God, because God wants you to be there. Yeah, oh, for those who don't know, there was a terrorist attack in Garissa University. You know we might be saying this, assuming everyone knows, but there was some Garissa terrorist attack, garissa University, where I think a couple of students, 142 students lost their life and Japheth was supposed to be in that court. But what happened? Like you chose not to go there or choose another university, how did it go?

Speaker 2: 24:08

Well, once I got the calling letter and I showed it to my mother, my mother said you're not going to Garissa. Yeah, yeah because, you know, Garissa has always been unstable in terms of the Al-Shabaab and stuff like that.

Speaker 1: 24:19

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 24:19

So, so that's how I ended up being in.

Speaker 1: 24:21

TUM. So did you like go there and change through job?

Speaker 2: 24:26

Oh no, I did self-sponsored In TUM In TUM, yeah. So that's how you happened to be in TUM. That's how I happened to be in TUM. Which course were you called to do in Garissa? Business Management Jesus.

Speaker 1: 24:39

Christ and in TUM you applied for computer science.

Speaker 2: 24:45

Before I applied for computer science. You know that waiting period after yeah, as a gap year. I didn't really have a gap year.

Speaker 1: 24:52

We used to have two gaps.

Speaker 2: 24:54

During that period of time, when I left high school, I wanted to do architecture, but then I don't remember what exactly happened. But something happened. Are you a good?

Speaker 1: 25:05

artist in terms of drawing, or you used to think you're good.

Speaker 2: 25:11

You know also where do you draw, Because I did technical drawing in high school. Huh yeah, drawing and design. We call it drawing and design. So I did drawing and design for four years, so I was fairly okay.

Speaker 1: 25:23

Wait a minute. You know I've heard about Aldina which subject I offered them, because it's also private right it's public, it's a governance and they do design and drawing drawing and design.

Speaker 2: 25:34

Yeah so drawing and design is not artistic impression like drawing, it's a technical drawing. So like, for example, say, this microphone, the technical drawings before it's produced. So like, we'll do that, oh nice. Which other subjects were offered there? Like, for example, say, this microphone the technical drawings before it's produced.

Speaker 1: 25:48

So we'll do that. Oh nice, which other?

Speaker 2: 25:49

subjects were offered there. Because I've never heard that Literature, swahili English, just compulsory to do all the sciences, geography, religion.

Speaker 1: 26:03

No French, no German.

Speaker 2: 26:04

I know, I mean in German. Ah no, I mean in Mombasa. You want to do French? English is already a problem. French will be far-fetched. Yeah, so I think that's as much as I remember.

Speaker 1: 26:20

Were you examined on it through KCSE? Yeah, ah, and you really pass yeah, he did so that's why you even consider now with the math, of course, technically drawing that could be yeah, would be a good combination.

Speaker 2: 26:32

So you applied for that at two more, no so when I left high school I was going to do architecture like that's what I said, selected. Yeah, no, that's what I said I was going to do, like regardless of whether it comes or not, because I found a means of doing it. But then when I was waiting I don't remember I might have watched a movie and I thought it was really nice to be coding. And then I searched the internet. Then I came across computer science. So that's what it said I wanted to do instead. So by the time I'm going to TUM, I went there and asked to do computer science. But then they didn't have computer science. They had mathematics and computer science. So I said, okay, even better, that sounds interesting. So I enrolled in that.

Speaker 1: 27:22

Was it an easy process.

Speaker 2: 27:24

It was fairly easy, especially because of self-sufficiency. So you know I am bringing in more money. There wasn't a lot of objections, yeah yeah, because.

Speaker 1: 27:33

So private university actually brought a big boost. From self-sponsor until private universities I earned a lot and some of the colleges were tattered to be universities and then they became a bit cheaper there and all that and self-sponsored is not as great as it was but because also they used that money to pay more. You know, visiting lecturers in case maybe there are a couple of specialized lecturers teaching some other university, so it's very interesting. So you joined first year. Yeah, how was it? Now you're meeting some fine guys, some guys from all over the country, because, given that in primary school you went to Mombasa, high school, mombasa, and now here you're still in Mombasa, yes, but now there are other guys from all over the country Was it a new experience for you or it just you know?

Speaker 2: 28:29

No, it wasn't. Really. It wasn't much of a big deal to me. Yeah, Because even though I've lived in Mombasa, Mombasa is cosmopolitan, so you have everyone from everywhere really, so like having new people from all over Kenya wasn't much bigger of a deal. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 28:47

So we just got into class, yeah, started studying, yeah, and I don't know if Tung teaches you everything you know from high school in a few months For chemistry and physics, yes, yeah, and then now start seeing things that actually you go deeper into different sciences. How was that? Was it fascinating for you? So?

Speaker 2: 29:14

I wrote my first program in my first year. I wrote my first C program in my first year. And I became so obsessed with programming that I don't remember most of what happened in campus. I just remember Every time you're not in class you're writing code.

Speaker 2: 29:30

Yeah, I used to write code on the ferry Because I had an Android phone and then I downloaded a C compiler with the Android phone. So all my time in the ferry we're still using the ferry. The ferry takes about 30 minutes using the ferry. Yeah, the ferry takes about 30 minutes going and coming.

Speaker 1: 29:47

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 29:48

So he is so obsessed with the thing, yeah.

Speaker 1: 29:52

What was so?

Speaker 2: 29:52

interesting about the code. I don't know. Like I said, it's just a natural inclination. Yeah, I just was so fascinated by it, I just couldn't stop myself from doing it. It was more of like a possession, more than an obsession, I would say.

Speaker 1: 30:09

You never encountered some bugs that discouraged you.

Speaker 2: 30:12

The bugs were even more interesting. Oh, really, like, yeah, like, why is this happening? So like. So you have something to research, yeah, yeah so I did that my first year, then my second year I got my first laptop. So oh, the first year you didn't have a laptop and I was programming on the phone there and then, of course, I was showing off to everyone who was who cared to listen, like even the guys with the laptops were like what this guy has.

Speaker 2: 30:40

He's so amazing I remember showing off to a friend called Mahmood my for loop, and that way I was calculating 1 plus 1 with C. So it was all very fascinating. So in my second year I got my first laptop and then I decided I want to do Android. So that long holiday I spent that long holiday learning Java and Android. Nice yeah.

Speaker 1: 31:07

And which year was this? This is my second year. No, no, like which year?

Speaker 2: 31:12

So I joined in 2013. Could be 2014. Yeah, because usually I join the end of 2013. So semesters are September. A year runs from September to April, april. Yeah, so it should be 2014, 2015, 2015, uh, march, uh mean the long holiday for april thereabouts.

Speaker 1: 31:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah, because the reason why I'm asking is because you said android and the last time it was, I think, two or three years when I tried android before you joined university and it was super buggy for my last year.

Speaker 2: 31:47

Yeah, like the emulator then was unusable, the Android emulator was unusable at that point.

Speaker 1: 31:51

Yeah, and I checked it a few months ago. It's really like what is there is really amazing.

Speaker 1: 31:57

It is yeah, yeah, you can know, because this is what happened nationally. Maybe I should tell you what happened. So we went for this hackathon, which was 48 hours straight, hosted by Garage48, which is now Naibobi Garage and MPH48. So MPH was an investment vehicle for Garage48, which was a hub. And in this 48 hour I decided okay, let me install Android so that I can set up some Android app. And we're working like a team of five Every time. I don't know. I remember it was huge, like five GB or something. So when the internet dropped, I had to start from zero. There was no way I could start from where it dropped.

Speaker 1: 32:35

So I tried that until 3am. I said, okay, man, it's not worth it.

Speaker 2: 32:42

It's not worth it.

Speaker 1: 32:43

That's why I was like man I had to help, said, okay, man, it's not worth it, it's not worth it. That's why I was like man, I twirl with this. And then, when I checked it um a few, a few months ago, it was really easy, like you could. It's well packet and, unless you need plugins and extras, you can actually download that as you build. Yeah, which makes it interesting. Yeah, so for you, I'm sure you didn't get a Mac or a laptop with 8GB RAM by then. No, was that a challenge for you and how did you handle that?

Speaker 2: 33:14

The only problem I remember was the internet. The internet was still expensive. Yeah, very expensive, yeah very expensive. So I don't remember stressing about the performance of the Android Studio on my device, but I remember the emulator being unusable. It was really slow. I just remember always plugging a phone in to test your AI instead of using the emulator. So yeah, I remember saving half money to afford the internet, because it was like 60 gb for a thousand shillings by airtail. Wait, was it a thousand or four thousand? Could be four thousand.

Speaker 1: 33:55

Four thousand for six gb are the safari com discontinued the unlimited internet by then um, I don't remember, I was not using Safaricom, yeah. Now, then we're talking about this. Has Airtel always been good in Mombasa as opposed to Safaricom? Why Airtel specifically?

Speaker 2: 34:17

Because my mother is Airtel. Yeah, I remember Orange being pretty good because Orange had an unlimited uh package, but then they introduced the fair usage policy which carved at some point.

Speaker 1: 34:32

yeah, so that was a really stressful uh, made life very hard for me because, uh, I used to live on that internet yeah, no, I mean, when I came here for the workshops and accolades, I used to have a arrangement on them and it really saved the day because otherwise you don't depend on the provided wireless because things might overrun and spend time. So for you just internet was the issue.

Speaker 2: 34:58

I remember it being really expensive.

Speaker 1: 35:01

Were you able to save 4,000 for 6GB Consistently.

Speaker 2: 35:08

Well, thankfully, yeah, thankfully, yeah. How are?

Speaker 1: 35:13

you. Where did you get this money to save?

Speaker 2: 35:17

I was doing contracting for side projects for people who had projects at school.

Speaker 1: 35:23

Oh, they're the guy to go to, yeah, even the four years. Now I realize this dude who I just joined in the first year, or second, second year, and he can do my projects, you know, and then I can finalize on it or maybe do the whole of it, and then all I need is to present oh nice, how much did you charge for one project?

Speaker 2: 35:44

um, I don't remember exactly, but well, I think the one that is very clear to me was there's this guy who wanted to, was asked to build a calculator of sorts, and then I did for him for like 6 Gs or 8 Gs.

Speaker 1: 36:02

It's a lot of money, a lot of money in school, man, because even there you're not getting that liquid cash coming to you unless you have help.

Speaker 2: 36:11

Yeah, that's one thing. I never really used the help in campus. I tried signing up and then it was too stressful, so I said well, with this help form, that was a good decision because you paid ex. I tried signing up and then it was too stressful, so I said well with this help form.

Speaker 1: 36:22

So, yeah, that was a good decision Because you paid exorbitantly after you finished. Yeah, yeah, so that's how you were able to get the internet and start building now mobile solutions, yeah, specifically with Android and Java. Yeah, and I know Java sometimes can throw a lot of errors. Yeah, careful, how do sometimes can throw a lot of errors if you're not careful.

Speaker 1: 36:44

How do you manage to now say you know what I've been building C, now it's Java, now it's Android, and then combine the two, because now C it gives you perspective of how things are compiled. Yeah, on the back end.

Speaker 2: 36:59

Actually, when I did C, I never understood how C structs work, by the way, really, I understood most part of C except structs and pointers. At that time I couldn't conceptualize how they work. But I did Java because I wanted to do Android apps. So that's like I just got a Java Java because I wanted to do Android apps, okay. So that's like I just got a Java book. I didn't do video tutorials. I got a book and said I'm going to read it. That is copy. No, it was a soft copy, I said. I said I'm going to do to read this book cover to cover.

Speaker 1: 37:38

It's the worst idea.

Speaker 2: 37:39

It's very time-consuming. It's a technical book also, so what? And you know, the longer it is, the faster your motivation wins as well. Yeah, so I would recommend a tutorial you get started, and then a book for referencing.

Speaker 1: 37:54

And it becomes gradual. You build. You're just referring to this tutorial to check if you're on the right track.

Speaker 2: 38:00

Yeah, you're just referring to this tutorial to check if you're on the right track.

Speaker 1: 38:02

Yeah, so that's how I do it now but do you think, if you are a bit stable in your career and you're doing something, is it also good to go to a book and go deeper in it? Yeah, it's not like you're required to build a project with it. Is this you want to get deeper insight on the language so, like right now I'm building.

Speaker 2: 38:21

Is this what you want to get deeper insight on? On the language yeah, so like right now I'm building on my like, for my own curiosity, I'm building the TCP IP stock, which is like how the internet I don't understand what exactly happens when data is sent through the internet. So I'm building a TCP IP stock using Golang and to do that I'm going through the TCP Illustrator TCP IP stack using Golang, and to do that I'm going through the TCP Illustrator TCP IP Illustrator book, which is like three volumes of work.

Speaker 1: 38:52

So I still like and you were talking 400 and above pages.

Speaker 2: 38:54

Yeah, it's Technical Because basically what they do is they define the protocol Like that is a book that does the implementation as well the same series. But now I read the protocol and then I try to implement the protocol and then cross-reference my implementation with the one they provide in the book and see, like what I got right and what I didn't.

Speaker 1: 39:15

And this is specifically for Golang.

Speaker 2: 39:18

I'm doing it in Golang. I've learned it in another language. Yeah, but I'm doing it in Golan.

Speaker 1: 39:23

I've not done it in any other language, yeah, but I'm doing it in Golan. Interesting, it's very fascinating man like you're doing all these things. And the last there was a time we spoke, I think a couple of years back in the building OS. Oh, yeah, swahili. Swahili version.

Speaker 2: 39:35

So it was called the little OS. I call it little OS, little OS. I call it Lil OS, lil OS.

Speaker 1: 39:42

No, by the way, you didn't have that name. You just told me I'm building this thing. There are a couple of guys you're building it with. When version 1 is out, we'll see how can we Get even guys. It was open source right. Or it's still there, but version 1 never came out. No, it never came out. What happened, man? How did life happen?

Speaker 2: 40:04

It's because, when I was building it, I wanted to understand how the system works. And once I felt like, okay, I understood how it works and well, it's not going to be a serious product, I decided my time is better used somewhere else.

Speaker 1: 40:20

Because I talked to a couple of community members who are really and they're fascinated by it. One of them is Ken Ather. Actually, I roast him one of these fine days. He's really really good. He used to work at Africa Stocking Before when I joined Africa Stocking. Now he works with Moomoo System and some other company I'm not sure, but Moomoo System is some other company I'm not sure, but Moomoo System is one I'm sure. And when I talked about this in the community they were like wow, this point has the right direction. We would love to contribute. That is really fascinated by such projects. He's another guy who is a nerd man all the way. So for you to learn something, you build something alongside it.

Speaker 1: 41:05

It doesn't have to be complete, but just want to understand if I'm building it, how does it run? Does it cost you to buy extra hardware?

Speaker 2: 41:14

Only a few Raspberry Pis. Why Raspberry? Well, they're a very cheap one and I can get a lot of them.

Speaker 1: 41:21

And I can test all these analogies with them.

Speaker 2: 41:24

Yeah, so, especially if I want to build a distributed system, I have enough place to test all the algorithms.

Speaker 1: 41:33

Yeah, Because for us, by the way, we did for the hardware we had to couple up like three of us and then we'd set up everything during the day and then in the evening there's only tests everywhere, so we'd share a link somewhere and then we'd test. If things are, you can manipulate that machine while there. So, yeah, that's a good concept you brought by in terms of getting the Raspberry Pi. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So at what point did you decide to drop off university?

Speaker 2: 42:09

Yeah, so what happened is one time I was in class and I think the teacher was taking us through Java. By this time I've had like four months of reading Java. So as they say in Swahili, I'm good, or in Mombasa they would say I'm a killer, like I've really my Java's really good at that time. Yeah, so the teacher writes. You know, in Kenya they write the program by hand on the whiteboard. Yeah, and I told the teacher I just like sort of blurted it out that okay, sir, that's not going to work because there was a syntax error. But then he ignored me. You know, it's fine. So when folks are running the program it doesn't run.

Speaker 1: 42:55

It doesn't compile it doesn't compile, yeah.

Speaker 2: 42:58

So like at that point is when I knew I'm probably not going to finish my studies this is just you.

Speaker 2: 43:04

You are learning too slow than you can learn by yourself um, well, it's like the feeling was like a realization, more of like uh, more like an unintentional decision, you know. Like a realization, you sort of you don't really intend for the decision, but sort of just realize it at a deeper level, like, okay, maybe this is not the place. So I didn't really act on that realization, like I didn't sort of drop out immediately. So when I was in my I think, second year as well or must have been second year I saw Ahmed Mawi, yeah, and then I reached out to Ahmed Mawi where did you see him? He came to tomb talk about Swahili box. I think Swahili box, swahili box, it was a concept. Swahili box was a concept at that time.

Speaker 2: 44:01

Yeah, so I emailed Ahmed, actually sent him a Skype message when his ultimate problem was email. Then it was Skype. Yeah, it's a funny story because Ahmed never replied to my Skype message. After this day. Maybe I'd stalk using Skype. But shout out to one and we're good friends, him and Mari, yeah, we're very good friends. So he talks about Swahili Books and I think, yeah, this is a really good idea. So I volunteered for Swahili Books for like close to two years. So after that, well, he ignored my Skype message. Then he said okay, this is where we are so you went there physically, I went there.

Speaker 1: 44:48

That's how you met him and you're like I want to volunteer. I love the idea.

Speaker 2: 44:51

Yeah, I said okay, I'll be a volunteer yeah, how can? I help. Yeah, and I was just. I was just saying to be as useful as I can. Yeah, like anything and anything like, uh, I will do yeah, and what is this? Anything in any way you guys are here. You painted the whole, we scrubbed the walls, the wall, like. That is why, like, whatever happened to soil box is really painful to me.

Speaker 1: 45:12

Uh, uh, personally, yeah I paint, I scrubbed, no, let's. Let's put it the way it is.

Speaker 2: 45:18

The current soil reports the space that soil report is in yes, the way it is, the current Soiliport. The space that Soiliport is in yes, the building that is, it was in Tatters.

Speaker 2: 45:26

Yeah, it was like it was an abandoned building in essence. So when we went there, we had to renovate it and to do that like we actually scrapped the walls by handsome Ahmed, myself, ali, other folks Daniel Oteyano was there as well uh, a lot of folks, yeah. So when we were kicked out of this place, it was very, very painful, yeah feel like something is stolen from you there's a sentimental value to it and really what happened?

Speaker 1: 45:54

what do you like guys live?

Speaker 2: 45:56

or so. By that time I'd already left for andela when the situation happened, so like I don't have a lot of context exactly, but I know it is a very dicey issue, so that he can take over All sorts.

Speaker 1: 46:10

But yeah, very soon we're going to speak about this. You'll hear the Okay.

Speaker 2: 46:14

You'll have to bring in Amir to speak about it.

Speaker 1: 46:16

And then also bring the other side to speak about it so that we get the context. And and then also bring the other side to speak about it so that we get the context and maybe if people can drink tea, which I know is next to impossible. But this Swahili box situation, Swahili pot situation, for me, the reason I pay attention to it is because I believe it's an ecosystem. When there's so much going on that it's not fair to the participating party, it derails a lot of things that actually could grow that ecosystem.

Speaker 2: 46:51

Yeah, like every successful driver you know from Mombasa has gone through Swahili books, you see.

Speaker 1: 46:57

Now imagine if it was really there was no that chaotic takeover and misunderstanding and confusion and even hate, to say the least. How much could this?

Speaker 2: 47:11

it's been a huge destruction. Actually much to the service of the tech community in Mombasa. But to see guys like Daniel Otieno, wayne, I think of the GDG, the GDG folks. They're doing a good job trying to bring the community out. Props to them.

Speaker 1: 47:30

And I think I would love to see guys come back together and try to build, Not a must. You know whoever is willing and come with the lessons that have been learned, Because this ecosystem actually will be built to a proper. You know whoever is willing and come with the lessons that have been learned? Yeah, Because this ecosystem actually will be built to a proper, proper place, because there's so many people who are interested in actually helping but now they can't because of the, the, the bad blood. I would say yeah, yeah, so this happens. And do you build software there or just so what was that?

Speaker 2: 48:05

Swahili books Ahmed gave me my first real job. Well-paying job you mean Very difficult, not really paying by any means, just enough for me to afford my internet and remaining with a few shillings to get money. But he subcontracted me to work on an app, on an Android app. So that was my first real Android job. This is not now like school projects like this. There's consequences. There's consequences. Now it doesn't work, did that?

Speaker 1: 48:38

scare you. No, I was actually very excited. I was very excited, or? Very excited and this is gonna be used in the real world and I was very impressed, fortunately.

Speaker 2: 48:48

Yeah, I remember one message he sent me telling me I'm a rock star, so that really boosted my confidence and that's a quite a validation for me. Yeah, you know, yeah, I mean I respected, I mean I respect Adam, I looked up to him yeah. I still look up to him. Yeah, so then at Feli Buki I also met Ali, a very nice guy. I also met Mtabe, tanzania. Mtabe is yeah he's another guy.

Speaker 1: 49:14

I've been trying to no. No, he's another guy. I've gone to Tanzania twice yeah man, if you listen to this, mtabe but Tanzania twice. Yeah, man, if you listen to this, but the second time actually, he got into an accident and, yeah, it was unavoidable. So I totally understand, but we're going to get all these guys into this because this chief used to travel from Arusha. Yeah, can't spend maybe a week here trying to help guys understand Ruby?

Speaker 2: 49:34

So you see how, like TechT, tech Twitter sees cars now and they all want to be devs, as we saw, ntabi and all the devs, but the dude is good. You know, what Ntabi used to do is, after a session that Soylee works now like probably not eating the whole day, ntabi takes us to a restaurant and buys for us food. A good restaurant, a good restaurant. You see, like this is the life.

Speaker 1: 49:56

Do you know why we buy food for okay, for any event. I'm involved in really good food and good experience, even take guys out for a beer or two afterwards. It's the same thing. Because, you see, sometimes when you're doing something like programming, it's hard, it's not an easy one, especially when you're learning. It's because I try to paint this picture that if I actually put in the work it's actually even much better than that.

Speaker 2: 50:22

Yeah. So until then we were just doing programming out of passion, but we realized it would be successful, very successful, through Mtabio, like he showed us the life, yeah, so it was a big inspiration. It was also the guy who taught me how to use Vim. Oh nice, do you still use Vim? Yeah, I still use Vim. Oh nice, do you still use Vim? Yeah, I still use Vim.

Speaker 1: 50:43

Now I know two guys in Mombasa who use Vim.

Speaker 2: 50:46

Well, but I say it's not like you should use whatever you find helpful To me. I use it because it helps me stay in flow, because I get distracted easily by all the widgets in other editors, so I use it because by all the widgets in other editors. So I use it because it definitely stays in flow. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 51:06

You know, brian Mugueru.

Speaker 2: 51:08

Brian was my classmate in Congress. Yeah, he also uses Vim. I hope I'm the one who inspired him. I'm killing him, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 51:17

And so you build this Android app. You submit you're a Android app. You submit You're a rock star.

Speaker 2: 51:24

Then what? Yeah. So then Andela came. At that point Andela was daunting. I applied to Andela and then I was with a friend called Harrison Kamau. You may know him, I know Harrison. He's a member of the community. So Harrison and I met Actuallyison and I know each other very well. Okay, yeah, we met at Swahili Box.

Speaker 1: 51:48

Oh yeah, yeah, I remember him telling me he's from Mombasa and he has never even come for the Ruby workshop that I did some time back and I was like how come there's one guy who can be in the room and you not know? So when he told me that, I was like you must be in the room because you remembered everything, uh, so you guys were classmates, or so?

Speaker 2: 52:11

No, we met at Sailor Books. Okay, yes, so that's when Andela came.

Speaker 1: 52:15

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 52:15

Uh, we prepared together Mm together, and then the submissions and the interviews. Yes, and then we were once called for the Andela interviews, now in Nairobi. Yeah, that was my first time in Nairobi. We've never been in Nairobi in life, so when I left campus, I was also preparing for the exams. That is third year. Second year, fourth year, Third year second year.

Speaker 1: 52:43

Okay.

Speaker 2: 52:45

For the cuts, I think.

Speaker 1: 52:46

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 52:47

So I knew that it's not coming back. It's not coming back. I knew that I have to make it work Like I have to. It's not coming back. Do your mom know about this? Yeah, but we see also, salesforce is very expensive. Ah, your mom know about this, yeah, but we see also, sas fonside is very expensive.

Speaker 2: 53:05

Ah, so so it was a less expense for her. Yeah, so, and then I'd done some work for armand, so armand paid me, and then I was able to put fair together and uh, um, let's go to nairobi. Um, so, harrison and I, that was my first time in nairobi. I remember it being so cold. Yeah, like my nose was bleeding. Oh, was that serious. It was very cold at that time. Wow, nairobi is warmer these days?

Speaker 1: 53:35

no, maybe you have been used to it. Yeah, and we also have gone to the colder places.

Speaker 2: 53:38

Yeah, nairobi is nothing yeah, so that was my first time in Nairobi.

Speaker 1: 53:45

But then Nadella used to get people hostels right.

Speaker 2: 53:47

No, that was. After you get in, you get a hostel.

Speaker 1: 53:50

Did they assign you or just look for a house?

Speaker 2: 53:52

No. After you get in, after you pass the interview.

Speaker 1: 53:55

So you went for the interview. I went for the interview, not that you went and qualified, okay, that was later that came, that came later.

Speaker 2: 54:03

So I say that, um, a friend's friend, harrison's friends, okay, uh, house, we call you. He's called george. Uh, so george gave us his place. Uh, we crashed there for two weeks because and then the interviews are not one day, so, and then at the interview, that's where I met Nanda and Ndiga.

Speaker 1: 54:22

They were the one who were interviewing.

Speaker 2: 54:24

Yeah, nanda and Ndiga knew Ahmed, so the interview was a bit easy. If I knew, I'd passed through Ahmed then they know you were an agent. Yeah, they had worked with Ahmed. So thanks to that relationship, the interview like it was not a hard interview To get now to the is like the first first to first interview and then after that comes the two-week uh period. Yeah, did they do lit code?

Speaker 2: 54:49

and stuff no no, no, we were just asking questions like, uh, basic questions. Yeah, I remember you're given like a piece of paper and then there was a program. Then you asked to do what will this program, what foot or what, find a bug in this, something along those lines there, and then that happened. Then we're called. Both harrison and I were called now for the two-week uh boot camp.

Speaker 1: 55:11

Yes, it was called a boot camp for the two-week boot camp is it, was it? Was it that's kilimani jodo or something?

Speaker 2: 55:19

dojo, dojo, yeah, I keep, I keep twister, exactly, so those tweaks are very fascinating. Uh, because all through my project worked all through, except on demo day. Oh really, yeah, my project demo goes on on your side, not on my side. Yeah, but thankfully they usually ask you to demo before, like the facilitators ask you to demo to them before you demo to the whole, because you need to demo to the whole company during demo day. Yeah, so I demo to Nanda and it worked. So Nanda had to say networking. So when it didn't work, you know, actually I couldn't log in, so I couldn't demo anything. So it, when it didn't work, you know, actually I couldn't log in, so I couldn't demo anything, so it looked like, it's not your project.

Speaker 2: 56:05

Uh, well, no one saw the features, so I just said, like if this had worked, if the login had worked, then this is what would have happened. Okay, but it had. But it had worked. Uh, the previous day.

Speaker 1: 56:15

Uh, do you forget your email, your password? What happened?

Speaker 2: 56:22

Or the login module was broken. I suspect it was a caching issue, because after I passed my interviews, after I got in, I never bothered to investigate again.

Speaker 1: 56:29

Oh really, and you never got to present this to the whole company.

Speaker 2: 56:34

No, no, I didn't demo it, but I demoed it to Nanda the day before the big demo, so Nanda had seen it working.

Speaker 1: 56:42

Oh, okay, so it was like this actually worked.

Speaker 2: 56:44

Yeah, like you know, and also like all through the tweak period, you have to sort of give status updates about where you are on the project. So that was a very fun time. It was very stressful as well, and so why was this stressful? Because you had such a short period of time to do a lot of things, ah, okay okay.

Speaker 1: 57:06

Yeah, I thought it was because you're scared.

Speaker 2: 57:08

If I don't qualify, I'm going back to ah, no, like I, I, I knew I was, there was no going back. There's no going back. Yeah, either getting or getting. Only had two options. Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 1: 57:20

So you qualify. So there was just one extra interview and then that was it, the two week project Once you pass that.

Speaker 2: 57:31

In my court only four guys Got in out of 15. It was very competitive as well.

Speaker 1: 57:38

And Harrison Was one of them. Harrison was in the boot camp as well. Yeah, and Harrison was one of them.

Speaker 2: 57:43

Harrison was in the boot camp as well, but he didn't make it. Then he didn't join Andela. So he joined Andela much later. Yeah, much later, yeah.

Speaker 1: 57:52

So when you joined, how did you get a project to work on? Did you get assigned a company's project? How did it all work?

Speaker 2: 58:00

So, Andela, we call it the Andela Fellowship. It was a fellowship, to be honest. First, like I said, Andela was very life-changing. I actually considered wearing an Andela t-shirt. I said I need to get over myself, so you still have Andela t-shirts.

Speaker 2: 58:23

I do. Now that you talked about it, I still have the original Andela t-shirt and also my bands, my D-level bands. I'll talk about them. So Andela was a fellowship. It was a four-year program. So the first six months you get trained on a particular technology stock, yeah, and then you sort of consult for companies, um, across the world. So I joined andela, I got accommodation to andela, uh, and then I lived in. I lived in we used to joke. I used to live in kilimania for six years yeah, when Kilimani was Kilimani.

Speaker 1: 59:03

Nowadays Kilimani is coming, and something else.

Speaker 2: 59:06

Unfortunately. So I did my training in React and not JS, yeah, I don't know. So I did that for six months and then I sort of graduated, but that was now d0. So after d0 you go to d1 so they were measured by d.

Speaker 1: 59:28

What did this stand for?

Speaker 2: 59:29

this distance for, like the, the sort of seniority, okay, you start at d0 and then the highest level was d4. So you progressed, uh, through the levels based on feedback from the partner you're working with, and then you also had to take an assessment before you went to the next level. So I joined as id zero, or we started as id zero and then when you graduate the training, you become okay. So that was when you started a partner work does that mean, also what you're paid improves?

Speaker 2: 1:00:01

Oh, yeah, of course, if anything, that's the only level, that's the only measurement that matters. So yeah, I started working with a company called Fast Access in New York. That was my first time going to States. Oh, I see, for all the projects, for all the companies that we're working with, I think it was in the contract that you do a site visit. Okay, I see, for all the projects, for all the companies that we're working with, I think it was in the contract that you do a site visit at least once in a year. Okay, so I worked with First Access for a year, mm-hmm. And then I worked for what did you do with?

Speaker 1: 1:00:35

First Access.

Speaker 2: 1:00:35

So First, access was a credit scoring company that provided credit scoring for Was it? Cooperatives, noatives, really, a lot of these things like circles? Yeah, yeah, in new york, they're circles. No, no, this is, they're serving for the african market. But the company, okay, how does that work? Yes, so I was there for a year. We built the platform from scratch, essentially the backend, mobile web, the whole shebang. How many engineers were you on that project? We started as three, and all of them from Mandela, all of us from Mandela, yeah, and then two more joined, yeah, and then I left after a year. Okay, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:01:19

You left that project.

Speaker 2: 1:01:20

Yeah, I left that assignment sort of when I was assigned another and how?

Speaker 1: 1:01:24

how do you live? Do you complete your module and say okay, I need another module? How did this?

Speaker 2: 1:01:29

so like after a year, uh, depending on like the partner. So sometimes the partner, you know they run into financial stress, uh, or sometimes you might have a better fit project based on your career aspiration as well. Okay.

Speaker 1: 1:01:42

Or sometimes, and there's a review process where you say, okay, this was experience. Yeah, this is the report. Yeah, but also this is what I'm interested in. So, based on that, is it the manager or the guys who are getting the projects? Yeah, they will assign a new project to us. Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2: 1:02:00

So that happened and then I off-boarded for success and then I think I stayed. I worked on Nandela internal products for some time. I did Android again. I got to do Android again on Nandela internal products and then after that I joined another partner based in Canada. It was called Finhaven. They did crypto stuff. I don't exactly remember what that was about and then. So after that, microsoft happened or still through Andela?

Speaker 1: 1:02:38

no, like a migration. Yeah, Also before even Microsoft happened. I hear there are a couple of guys who are working for GitHub and Microsoft projects through OneDollar.

Speaker 2: 1:02:49

No, I didn't hear about that Microsoft, but I know GitHub, github yeah, but Microsoft I didn't hear. Okay.

Speaker 1: 1:02:56

Yeah, yeah, because I understand that's how they understood that the ecosystem is ready for engineering office. Yeah, yeah, and now that they won't get up, maybe I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you guys you like, but before, when you migrated, there was some issues, dandela, I don't know. They wanted to close or to cut it out. Well, that's after I'd left ah I left in 2018, at least 2018 and that means there was a huge migration.

Speaker 2: 1:03:26

It was just you leaving me so at that time what had happened is andela had started hiring aggressively. Okay, and you know, like at andela, just like for brotherhood, like everyone knew everyone and like those who someone lives, then it more like you guys were so close, you guys used to hang out yeah, quite a bit.

Speaker 1: 1:03:48

There's a part you just uh, we just didn't talk about. Yeah, uh, where I visited uh andela, right and I also. We left part that way. I came for a couple of workshops here just before we joined Mandela. How was that experience for you? Let's start with the workshops here in Mombasa through Swahili Box and other partners. How was that for you?

Speaker 2: 1:04:10

Very useful Because you see what workshops do, is they sort of give you another perspective about things. Example if I've only been using, say, I don't know asana, yeah, and I get to learn about jira, yeah, I get to see, I get to sort of compare the two. Yeah, in a normal day to day, unless something extraordinary happens like changing roles or changing jobs, I won't use jira, right, yeah, so there was that. And there was also the getting the insight from other folks, because people are very smart people in Kenya. So getting that insight so I've always appreciated that Not getting not living in my head too much, like getting to hear what other people are saying yeah, yeah, and then, dandela, come there and do what you said.

Speaker 1: 1:05:04

I'm still doing it. I went through this. It's still impact. So I do impact innovation. Yeah, yeah, I remember presenting that keynote at Africa's Talking Summit. But you know, twit for devs. It's the same keynote I did with you guys and I remember vividly. Same keynote I did with you guys and I remember vividly. Maybe I'll share the pictures with the editor to show that it was an interactive session where guys used to like, even beyond code, how do you really build for impact? Yes, because that's what matters, especially in Africa like building a solution that could scale number one, number two, that could touch on individuals who are using a solution, and scale number one, number two that could touch on individuals who are using a solution.

Speaker 2: 1:05:43

And you guys happen to collaborate and I don't know you remember that experience yeah, I think the most vivid part is I remember getting a shrug, oh, and then there wasn't any male shirts remaining, so I had to get a a blouse. I had to get a blouse for my girlfriend. Then now, if uh, so yeah oh, then the shoulder girlfriend.

Speaker 1: 1:06:03

Nice, but I'm not talking about that. It looks like you forgot this one, this one. Even nanda was there. There was another session I did separately, besides the atlassian one. Yeah, I might have forgotten.

Speaker 2: 1:06:13

Did you do it on the cafeteria?

Speaker 1: 1:06:16

no, there was a table just aligned. I think it's the cafeteria then there was a tv, so we used to present it's a cafeteria. And then there was a TV, so we used to present.

Speaker 2: 1:06:23

That might have been the boot camp rooms. The boot camp rooms those are the rooms where we used to do boot camps. If there was a TV, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:06:30

But it was outside. It was outside, outside, with the pictures and everything. If it's outside, it's a cafeteria yeah, you tell me which is it but it was just. Yeah. We had this chat and I said, oh, if we present this to these guys, I think there's so much they will gain. For me, it was because I also wanted to start Impact Hub Nairobi and all these induction meetings that we went to and I was fascinated by them, by the fact that there are people who don't dispute for money. Good for money. Yeah, they build social businesses.

Speaker 2: 1:07:03

It's not that they don't make money, but specifically, they are more geared to like yeah, I think the only person, the only other person that I know is really who really cares about impact, social impact. Yeah, I'm with my, yeah, I'm with my really cares about social impact.

Speaker 1: 1:07:15

Yeah yeah, and it's important actually, if you understand them, because for me, I used to know that I might. I want to change the way things are, but I wasn't so clear. How do you do it? Until now, that process of starting impact, I'm never worked, but the lessons I got there are game changer. And then I prepared these keynotes and then presented to you guys. Uh, hannah, masila was there, or I think you were there, and a couple of other guys. Nanda was there. When I look at the picture, you see who was there. I'll share the picture with you and maybe probably the editor to share that. So, and one thing also I noted about Andela that you were saying it was, you know, a guy. It was well-needed. You guys used to have pool. You used to have us PS, maybe two or I don't know, ps, what you used to play. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I was. When I visited you guys, because I went there, I was at two events there and I interacted with guys.

Speaker 2: 1:08:20

One of the things that I noted is that when do you guys get time to work when we're not playing pool? Because guys, there are guys who play pool throughout.

Speaker 2: 1:08:25

They're like, okay, maybe they're waiting for the evening. Yeah, most people used to work with companies in the US, so usually it's quite a bit of time difference there, so during the day folks will just be playing the pool and then people start working from five. Yeah, uh, most will work from midday. That's why, like it's like a lot of people around and it's from five until two am yes, then.

Speaker 2: 1:08:49

Uh, sometimes some folks used to live at andela, like there used to be accommodation, oh okay, but some folks used to be, uh, they, there was transport, like we robbed you at home so there was no pressure.

Speaker 1: 1:09:03

And then Andela opened a campus along Thika Road, but then had you left, or I was still there, but before yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:09:09

Well, yeah, then we go to Thika Road. Yeah, it was big news.

Speaker 1: 1:09:12

man, like I wanted to visit that campus. It was really good. Did that campus exist in reality? Because everything that happened afterwards well I don't really know. As you know it was, at least was it because the one that reached me I never got to present is that these guys have bought a couple of acres behind trm. Yeah, you want to build a whole campus. They did build. Yeah, they did they built. Okay, yeah, so, before you were saying something, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:09:40

So I was going to say I was on the part where the disintegration of the closed-knit society, or penalty rather. So what happened is Zandela started hiring rather rapidly and very huge numbers. It was of growth. You know the startup drug. All startups get high on growth. So courts became very large, from four people courts to 20 people courts, I think, from courts every now and then to courts every week.

Speaker 2: 1:10:10

So that closeness was no longer there. You could see some random guys Like you didn't feel like there was nothing special about Andela anymore. So what they say is that people is what is important. So people had opportunities but would stay because of what was out there. And also people didn't mind Andela taking a cut from their salaries Because what we know is this is necessary for the next court, for the next court to be able to join Andela. This needs to be done. So guys were, they were gladly let Andela say, like, take whatever percentage they were taking from the salary. No one had qualms with it. But at some point the vision changed and the mission changed. It became about growth and people started feeling short-changed. But you see, the mission initially I don't remember the words, but it made you feel like You're part of something bigger.

Speaker 2: 1:11:17

And you're okay sacrificing something for the next group yeah, bigger. And then you're okay sacrificing something for the next group, yeah, but when the mission changed, um, it made you feel, uh, disillusioned and how did it change?

Speaker 1: 1:11:29

what did it change to?

Speaker 2: 1:11:30

I don't. I don't remember the wordings, like it's been a while was it raising funds?

Speaker 1: 1:11:34

was it?

Speaker 2: 1:11:35

no, it became more business oriented than most people oriented, yeahipollone oriented, yeah, okay, that's the feeling that I remember getting, yeah, so, so there was very little reason to stay at Andela, yeah, although I must say like Andela's changed the lives of a lot of people.

Speaker 1: 1:11:54

And even the ecosystem, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:11:56

The ecosystem is where it is. To me, it's because of swahili books and andela. Yeah, yeah, I'll say so. Uh, so one day, after I've done my work, uh, folks from microsoft come to the office, say, oh yeah, we have a dinner traditional they come to andela office and they, they were guys yeah, they wanted to like see what andela is doing. They're sort of like scouting.

Speaker 1: 1:12:20

So did everyone get called for a meeting.

Speaker 2: 1:12:23

No see, they were just walking through and inviting people for the dinner. So I went to the dinner because I had nothing else to do Free food and drinks. Lately they know that it was actually a scouting event. It was not just a dinner, they were scouting for devs. Then there is this guy called Randa Randa Bosman. When I'm like a few glasses down like I'm already feeling a bit tipsy, he asked us like a sort of a simple algorithm question and then it turns out out of all those people because I know there those are standing table for networking events and there was only my program was working, because he asked us to write you have your laptop in a napkin, oh okay, so only mine was working. So that's how I got my first interview at Microsoft.

Speaker 1: 1:13:20

And the rest is history, as they say. So were you like the initial engineers who joined the Microsoft developer program?

Speaker 2: 1:13:32

I joined Microsoft ADC before ADC started, so that makes me the first engineer at Microsoft ADC Africa by accident.

Speaker 1: 1:13:41

Oh, oh nice, that's amazing. Uh oh, I didn't know that.

Speaker 1: 1:13:46

Uh well, you're very privileged to have this conversation. Thank you so much, man. Thank you so much. Yeah, no, and it shows. Uh, no, seriously, uh, it's very important because I I'm a guy who knows that in a couple of years, apple engineering will be in Africa and I'm a guy who believes that maybe in a couple of decades, africa will be shipping products, serious products, out there. Yeah, so that's how we are. But also, even before these guys came, I was the only guy who was building communities, develop a community consistently. I'm still doing so, not because I could not do something else, but it's because I see that if an opportunity comes and you're not ready, then it's a waste of data.

Speaker 2: 1:14:37

Well, there is a saying that I like, that is like victory loves preparation Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 1:14:41

Yeah, so that's great. Well, there is a saying that I like. That is like victory loves preparation. Absolutely, yeah, so, so, so that's, that's great. So you're doing a microsoft and still you're in andela or you just quit and oh yes, I I resigned from andela that evening or after you qualified? How many interviews did you do with microsoft?

Speaker 2: 1:14:55

uh, so I did, I remember it, it being four rounds.

Speaker 1: 1:15:01

Yeah, in a span of.

Speaker 2: 1:15:03

Two days.

Speaker 1: 1:15:04

Two days.

Speaker 2: 1:15:04

Yeah, because Microsoft is on Redmond so I had to do them like at midnight. Oh, okay, okay, if you're seeing under the internet, unfortunately, Under the internet was good. It was the best yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:15:16

So you used to stay in the office until late. Yeah, doing these interviews. Yeah so you used to stay in the office until late. Yeah, doing these interviews?

Speaker 2: 1:15:23

Yeah, but everyone else thinks you're working. I know that was past my working hours.

Speaker 1: 1:15:27

But you know, whoever leaves you there, these guys are very serious. Burning the midnight oil, but you are exiting. So how did the guys take that news? They're like, ah man, this is it. So that looks like you gave them one month notice.

Speaker 2: 1:15:43

Yes. So Joshua Moniki, the country director, is a very good friend of mine. So after I negotiated, did the initial negotiation with Microsoft, I actually took him to give him the contract to reform because he's a lawyer by profession. Well, if you review, it.

Speaker 2: 1:16:00

Yeah, yeah. So he has more exposure. As african, we say is the hotel does can see oil seated, young people can't see standing on a hill. Um, yeah, yeah. So I gave him the contract to review it and yeah, he said, yeah, you should go so for him it not, it didn't look. The money was good.

Speaker 1: 1:16:21

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:16:22

It was very good actually.

Speaker 1: 1:16:24

More than what you guys are offered right now.

Speaker 2: 1:16:27

Well, I don't know what guys are offered.

Speaker 1: 1:16:28

For you. You were hired in Seattle office, right.

Speaker 2: 1:16:32

I was reporting to Seattle. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:16:34

That means the contract must have been yeah, it was good. Yeah, it was good. Yeah, it was good, yeah, and yeah. Now I will start asking some controversial questions. So I hope you're ready. I will answer those which I can and I will be politically correct, because this is very important for the ecosystem to grow. So the word is you know, after you know, guys came in set up some offices here. There is, you know, word going around that guys get shortchanged and they're hired based on the economic status or value of that country as opposed to what their counterpart are paid doing the same job, or even for them, even if they're doing it much better, they still get underpaid. That is true, it happens. Yeah, it's still happening it?

Speaker 2: 1:17:20

That was true, it happens yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:17:22

It's still happening.

Speaker 2: 1:17:23

Yeah, it's happening. Yeah, for sure. Like you need to, I negotiate quite aggressive, yeah. So I think learning to negotiate is really important, because it's the only opportunity to have. All your subsequent salaries depend on your first salary.

Speaker 1: 1:17:42

True, true.

Speaker 2: 1:17:45

So negotiate as much as you can for your first salary.

Speaker 1: 1:17:48

Yeah, yeah. So when you joined I'll ask other questions as you go when you joined Microsoft, what did you get to work? Which team did you join, given that Microsoft has a portfolio of tools across the industry?

Speaker 2: 1:18:04

So when I joined Microsoft, I sort of stumbled onto my second passion, and that is building developer tools. I've been building developer tools since then, so that's for the last six, seven years.

Speaker 1: 1:18:19

I remember you telling me you built Python, open source for yourself.

Speaker 2: 1:18:23

So that's why, when you see, the projects that I work on are very not like web apps or stuff. They're very tooling oriented. So when I joined Microsoft, I joined a developer experience team for the Microsoft Graph API and the first thing, my first responsibility, was sort of migrating what's called a Graph Explorer from Angular to React. That was my first sort of thing that I did and by that time I'd even like contributed to the React developer tools.

Speaker 1: 1:18:57

On the side or.

Speaker 2: 1:18:58

Yeah, on the side, like while I was at Andela I did React mostly at Andela. Because I did react mostly at Andela, yeah, so I contributed to the open source too by Facebook itself, and then so it was, it was quite nice like, yeah, because I was able to sort of sort of set the standard in the team at that time. Yeah, and I did that Then. Now I moved to other projects after the migration from Angular to React.

Speaker 1: 1:19:33

So take me through this journey. So at say, microsoft or any legacy scaled solution and you get to build something that already exists or migrates. How do you undo, if something doesn't work, the first version, how is that process like?

Speaker 2: 1:20:01

So the trick is to build something that works first and then improve on it.

Speaker 1: 1:20:03

So they have like testing tools that ensure that by the time we're shipping these, it really works.

Speaker 2: 1:20:09

Oh, I see what you're asking for, like how do you ensure that we're shipping correct software? Yes. Production Production right, yeah. So at Microsoft there's a lot of dogfooding, where teams use their product internally. So then there is like deployment. So at Microsoft there's a lot of dogfooding, where teams use the product internally. So then there is like deployment rings First to internal users and to sort of beta users, for example a good example is the Insider program for VS Code or for Windows and then now to the general public. So there's a lot of checks and balances.

Speaker 1: 1:20:41

And the reason I'm asking is that I know Microsoft for shipping broken things. Which Microsoft that requires patches afterwards? Even today's Microsoft, how many times do we, even before you became a rock star, and stuff? How many times do you require patches for things to work? And even today there's some of the tools and I understand, because they have a wide range of tools and keep it I agree, like even for myself.

Speaker 2: 1:21:12

Uh, one thing I realized is that my interpretation of ship first, or like build something that works and I tell you it has changed was initially I thought it's okay to have bugs, like as you ship something, yeah, but that is not, or rather, normally our enterprise is not that way. It's that okay. You need to ship something that works at least stable enough no, not stable enough.

Speaker 2: 1:21:35

something that works completely like a small feature set, yeah, right, yeah. For example, say, perform a CRUD operation, you create, read, update, delete operations. You don't build the whole API, but then with bugs, with parts missing, you build a single endpoint, say one, two create, and then make sure that it works completely, and then you ship that. And then you build the second piece and then you ship that.

Speaker 1: 1:22:10

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:22:13

So instead of building small incomplete parts, yeah, you ship small complete parts.

Speaker 1: 1:22:17

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:22:18

It does not make sense?

Speaker 1: 1:22:19

No, it makes sense and actually there is a science around that. That's why I'm like all these years, microsoft and all the talent they have. But of course, I understand, you know, I never. I mean even Google, Facebook, everyone ships shit record. How come we don't see? Okay, now we see that with the Google suit. With the Google suit, you see, but with the Google itself, it's really hard to capture what is broken. But now with the Google suit, there are a couple of things that actually you can't really do and you feel like, okay, there could be a better work than that there. So, but the future is you can ship something that is really perfectly working.

Speaker 2: 1:23:03

Yeah. So the idea is to do honest work, like for you as a software engineer to put in the effort to try. Bugs might slick, might leak through, but at least try. Don't sort of like rush over the work and then Bugs will be obviously present in a software field.

Speaker 1: 1:23:23

Yeah, but also the point I'm looking at is that even now there are more tools to help you see where things are broken much faster as opposed to before, because before you needed a good piece of two eyes that could actually.

Speaker 2: 1:23:40

Yeah, and also, like I'll say, discipline as well. As a software engineer, you need to be disciplined.

Speaker 1: 1:23:48

So, chief, I'm also sure I'm still on that dev migration. You find this quite size of code, oh yeah, and you need to migrate.

Speaker 2: 1:24:01

It was actually very interesting because that project initially had been worked on by contractors. Oh okay, it was outsourced. Yeah yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:24:09

Very messy.

Speaker 2: 1:24:11

It was out of source. Yeah, very messy Like it was, it felt like everything was littered everywhere.

Speaker 1: 1:24:17

Yeah, Spaghetti code. Or these things are not working, really, yeah, spaghetti code.

Speaker 2: 1:24:23

It made like you had to understand four modules before you change one module.

Speaker 1: 1:24:29

It was that must be crazy, so that's why they made a decision to build it in-house.

Speaker 2: 1:24:36

So actually that was the version 3 of the same product actually.

Speaker 1: 1:24:43

Internally or even by request.

Speaker 2: 1:24:45

Of course, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:24:46

And still they felt like this is not it.

Speaker 2: 1:24:49

So the plan was to migrate it to Angular. I don't know Well, it was on Angular 2, and I think I don't remember which Angular version was out then. Is it 7? I don't know Like some really newer version of Angular.

Speaker 1: 1:25:03

So, one, it was updated. Two, the code was all over. Three, I'm sure it was not as efficient as possible.

Speaker 2: 1:25:12

Yes, and also now even upgrading it to the new Angular version, because there was a lot of syntax change between the two Angular versions. We might as well just do it in the like what was familiar then to most people. React was picking up so it would have been easier to hire more people who know React, so we decided to do a rewrite. In React, a migration is mostly essentially a rewrite, essentially if you are changing programming frameworks or languages.

Speaker 1: 1:25:41

You have to write everything.

Speaker 2: 1:25:43

You have to rewrite the thing.

Speaker 1: 1:25:45

And also, if it's not efficient, you have to factor that in Were you alone or a team of.

Speaker 2: 1:25:52

So I was working with a guy called Charles. Well, he was not the contractor responsible for it before. I think it was a source to somewhere else, but then, when I started working on it, I started working on it with a guy called Charles. Wait, no, I think I did most. I did most of like, the foundation work. First, I worked on it for a long time, yeah, and then charles joined me later on as a microsoft employee or he was a contractor then, but now he's a full-time employee at microsoft is he kenyan or yeah?

Speaker 2: 1:26:25

he's kenyan. Okay, yeah. So he joined me after the ADC. Well, he became an NFT after ADC. Okay, yes.

Speaker 1: 1:26:34

And that project went well, I'm sure, because even that's not a project that you told me you're working on. How did you exit from that project to another in the company? Do you not need to maintain it? Do you not need?

Speaker 2: 1:26:47

to. I think folks were happy with the work I did it was stable enough they said, the reward for good work is more work.

Speaker 1: 1:26:56

So that's what happened yeah and that's true most of the time.

Speaker 2: 1:27:01

Yes, so I moved on to the python sdk. Customers were starting to ask for a python sdk. Yeah, so I did that python s Python SDK for a long time, sort of did all the groundwork and the first few features. So after that then I got asked to do now. So I invited someone in the Python SDK who was coming through ADC. Yeah, now, ADC now had come into place, so our team had also grown, now around 10 folks the team. So I worked on the Python SDK and then I moved to Microsoft Graph CLI, the command line interface tool.

Speaker 1: 1:27:43

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:27:44

That was also very fascinating. That's one of the most fascinating things I've worked on.

Speaker 1: 1:27:49

While at Microsoft. While at Microsoft. Yeah, why is it fascinating for you?

Speaker 2: 1:27:54

Because of the extensibility model. So you see, the problem with the Microsoft Graph API is thousands of runpoints.

Speaker 1: 1:28:02

Hmm.

Speaker 2: 1:28:03

Yeah, so if you were to ship a CLI? First of all, you can't build CLI commands. You can't write a thousand CLI commands. Yeah, true.

Speaker 1: 1:28:10

Second, even if you can't write a thousand CLI commands?

Speaker 2: 1:28:11

Yeah, true. Second, even if you were to write a thousand CLI commands, you can't ship a thousand CLI commands because of the size. Yeah, yeah. So those are the technical challenges.

Speaker 1: 1:28:19

You have to figure it and there's a lot of math involved.

Speaker 2: 1:28:23

There's a lot of software engineering involved. So we had to find an extensibility model where the CLI ships with, say, 100 endpoints, yeah, and then users could extend the CLI on demand, say, I want to get the user's endpoint, for example, and then they will be able to sort of ask the CLI to get those endpoints, to sort of extend itself with those endpoints yeah. So I found those endpoints.

Speaker 1: 1:28:51

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:28:51

So I found that very interesting yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:28:53

Interesting. So which stack have you built it with?

Speaker 2: 1:28:56

That was in Python. Actually, from that experience, if anyone tells me to build a CLI in Python again, I'm telling him to get out of my face. I've never built it that difficult. Yeah, especially because you know for that work you need to ship the CLI with the Python interpreter, because you know the extensions were essentially Python modules and for the CLI to load the modules you needed the Python interpreter to load the modules with.

Speaker 1: 1:29:27

Yeah, another easy thing when you're shipping.

Speaker 2: 1:29:30

Yeah, especially if you know thing when you're shipping, yeah, especially if you know you have to ship for Linux to create the Debian packages. Deb packages that was really stressful. Yeah, and also the Wix files for Windows installer the Windows installer, like I would Intuition, that was my worst Enemy.

Speaker 1: 1:29:50

It was Very painful, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:29:53

Why does Windows never?

Speaker 1: 1:29:54

Work for Devs.

Speaker 2: 1:29:55

What do you mean? Windows is the best. They are Trying but you see With Windows. You see, I'm telling it's the Best because Of Windows Subsystem For Linux.

Speaker 1: 1:30:04

Yeah, until Lately, but Even, but. Even then it's still. It's always something that will break, and then you'll spend all your time there fixing it. Well, maybe because I work at Microsoft, I think Windows is quite and you see for you, I've seen the other side of this right. But when it comes to users especially I'm not talking about general users General users are perfect. You is perfect, you know, it's easy to use.

Speaker 2: 1:30:29

Let me ask you, let me put you on the spot what problems specifically have you met?

Speaker 1: 1:30:36

Specifically, unless this changed, because it's been over a decade.

Speaker 2: 1:30:41

Your writing is of detailed information, my friend, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:30:44

So I remember even trying to install Ruby, oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:30:50

Ruby. But that is not Windows' fault, that is Ruby's fault.

Speaker 1: 1:30:53

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:30:53

That's not Windows' fault, because Ruby is like. The developers made it thinking about Linux. Yeah, so getting it to work on Windows was stressful. Yeah, but that is Ruby's fault.

Speaker 1: 1:31:04

So you're saying there's a good, good job that is being done on the Windows.

Speaker 2: 1:31:08

Windows is quite impressive. Actually, I enjoy the time I spent on a Windows machine.

Speaker 1: 1:31:14

I'll take your word for it. Vs.

Speaker 2: 1:31:15

Code is actually quite good as well.

Speaker 1: 1:31:18

But to see VS Code, you can use it anywhere. It doesn't have to be Windows, but it's from Microsoft. No, I'm not saying that let's get the cat out of the bag. I'm not saying all the tools that come from Microsoft are bad. I'm just saying your experience as a dev on Windows machine. It does not match the user experience.

Speaker 2: 1:31:39

I mean, 10 years ago that could have been correct, but right now I think Things have changed. Yeah, the times I've spent on a Windows machine, I've enjoyed it.

Speaker 1: 1:31:50

Yeah. And yeah, and do you have to be on the latest version of Windows for everything to be fine? No, even 2007 Windows machine would serve me perfectly.

Speaker 2: 1:32:05

Windows machine or the Windows OS.

Speaker 1: 1:32:06

OS.

Speaker 2: 1:32:08

Yeah, it should work.

Speaker 1: 1:32:09

Yeah, but you know, You're making me to feel like I should go and test and next time we'll have this conversation. Yeah, you should.

Speaker 2: 1:32:16

Definitely yeah. Yeah, I think Microsoft right now have quite a good understanding of developer experience. Okay, they have sort of After acquiring GitHub and also the team, because Windows and Microsoft, they have a whole organization. A whole organization that is equivalent to maybe 500 people's startup.

Speaker 1: 1:32:35

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:32:37

Working on developer experience. Yeah, so they have a really good understanding of developer experience, wow. So I think they have sort of cracked the window.

Speaker 1: 1:32:47

I'll go and test that Windows. I don't have to be on the latest OS.

Speaker 2: 1:32:54

The software you use might need to be on the, because software usually build for the latest OS. Even then, I'll test it just for. Or you want a Windows license? Oh, you have some, I don't mind. I think I might have a few from my time at Microsoft, but I don't remember where I kept them.

Speaker 1: 1:33:11

Yeah, you can look for them and share. Do you still use Windows machine?

Speaker 2: 1:33:16

no, Right now, I mostly spend my time on a Mac.

Speaker 1: 1:33:19

On a Mac, yeah that says a lot, anyway, out of convenience.

Speaker 2: 1:33:25

That says a lot. It's because I'm on an iPhone, so I like to take my phone call every now and then.

Speaker 1: 1:33:32

Everything connects but nevertheless, you know, no love lost, no love found. It's just a matter of you know, just pure, independent of the relation from my interaction with Windows and DevWorks. So you start now building the SDK, the Python SDK, and you say it's the worst.

Speaker 2: 1:33:55

The CLI which comes first.

Speaker 1: 1:33:57

Python or.

Speaker 2: 1:33:58

The Python SDK comes first and then the CLI comes second, but it's still in Python.

Speaker 1: 1:34:03

So what would you say? It could actually work well, if it was built CLI is, I'll say, good.

Speaker 2: 1:34:08

And right now it's still on Python, I'll say go straight away, it was good.

Speaker 1: 1:34:11

Yeah, okay, and right now it's still on Python, right, but it works.

Speaker 2: 1:34:16

So what happened is after I left, I think before I left, we ran into a very significant technical challenge, and that was the CLI. Naming were auto, because you can't write a thousand CLI commands. You are also generating them, and the tool we used to auto-generate was owned by another team, so you have a lot of influence over the direction of that tool. So a strategic decision was made to build our own tool called Kyoto, which actually GitHub users started using to generate their own SDKs. Now they used that to generate their NET SDK, I think Okay. So because of that decision, we decided to sort of abandon the Python effort because it was a bad user experience. So the CLI exists now, but it is now in C Sharp, okay, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:35:13

So the C Sharp is much better than even Python.

Speaker 2: 1:35:16

Well, fun fact, I never wrote C Sharp at Microsoft. It would remind you a lot of C. Well, not exactly, maybe because I can't see clearly. And so when that happened, we were starting getting requests for Go SDK, and because I'd been playing around with Go on my own time, I moved to work on the Go SDK. Yeah. So now I initiated that effort, or became part of that effort early on working on the Go SDK, yeah, so is that the last product to work at Microsoft? Yes, working on the GoSDK.

Speaker 1: 1:35:51

So is that the last project you worked at Microsoft? Yes, that is it.

Speaker 2: 1:35:57

So not the last project actually. So around that time is when I moved to London While working for the GoSDK. While working on the GoSDK, I moved to London.

Speaker 1: 1:36:08

To be closer to the team.

Speaker 2: 1:36:10

No, my wife got a job in London and then we relocated as a family in London.

Speaker 1: 1:36:15

Your wife also works for Microsoft, no Another company. So you tell your manager you know the family is moving and I'd love to be close to it, so they find the office in London, or how? No, you have to apply.

Speaker 2: 1:36:32

We don't just change teams. It's like you have to apply. It's easy, of course, when you're inside than when you're outside, but you have to apply and go through the motions of an interview.

Speaker 1: 1:36:41

Okay, oh, you like yeah, you have to re-interview, or or together. Okay, yeah, so you join a whole new team I join a whole new team.

Speaker 2: 1:36:49

Uh, this team was in the Azure organization In Kenya. I was in the Microsoft 365 organization, okay, so I was in that team for a few months maybe two months and then I left Microsoft, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:37:08

Oh nice, Only two months.

Speaker 2: 1:37:10

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:37:11

What went?

Speaker 2: 1:37:14

It could be four months, but it's not a long-term recession.

Speaker 1: 1:37:18

What went well. So, because that's very important for guys who migrate and stuff. Well, there could be some few lessons that we learned.

Speaker 2: 1:37:29

So migration is one of the most difficult things I've done. Actually it was very stressful migrating, especially by that time my daughter was seven months old, so doing that with a young child was.

Speaker 1: 1:37:42

It was a lot of tension and it's a new country. It's a new country. New weather, exactly If you could go to Nairobi and not bleed. Then this other place is crazy. Yes, so those are some of the challenges that actually contributed to you to consider leaving Microsoft.

Speaker 2: 1:38:01

Was there challenges? Really, I just thought it was time to leave. Well, actually there was a challenge, but I can tell you off mic Okay, but no, no.

Speaker 1: 1:38:13

This is very important for anyone who works for a company that actually we need to move around the world. It's not as easy as it sounds.

Speaker 2: 1:38:18

It's fun, like you know it looks good, it looks good I mean white land I will go to seattle but also the.

Speaker 1: 1:38:25

The change, especially when you have a family, is not that easy. Yeah, and I think some companies have started actually recognizing that and they have a family. It's not that easy, yeah, and I think some companies have started actually recognizing that, and they have a support system around that.

Speaker 2: 1:38:36

Yeah, so shortly after I didn't stay at Microsoft for too long. After I moved to London Spent a short time and then I joined Netlify.

Speaker 1: 1:38:44

Yeah, Netlify is based in the US.

Speaker 2: 1:38:47

It's a US company that's remote yeah. So there, you started building, uh but that's where I started working on the build system. Yeah, well, you see, like you see, a general trend is that I've just been working on developer tool. Like I said, I've been very passionate about that since then guys who are listening to us.

Speaker 1: 1:39:02

These are the modest tech bros who you don't know about by the until these uh podcasts and I'll bring some of them because, uh, I feel like and these are just to say, oh, these guys are making million bucks and you know, not that hula baloo, and even if they're making it's the effort, for sure is that they have done some amazing work. That actually a you know, uh, and I feel like you guys are so modest. I know a couple of you. Like if you go through, you know, through their LinkedIn profile, if you don't know them personally, you might think nothing's happening, but a lot of things. But please share, oh, for sure, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:39:38

So about the Well? This discussion comes up ever so often on Twitter about a developer earning this much, another earning this much. It's good to make money, true, true, but what I think is more important is to do good work. Yes, I agree with you so like if, if I was starting in my career, I would advise someone to focus more on their craft than on their payslip.

Speaker 1: 1:40:01

Yes.

Speaker 2: 1:40:03

I'm not saying like, don't, like I just said before, I negotiate aggressively, but you've.

Speaker 1: 1:40:10

personally, I find more satisfaction from the work yes, the money just comes as a package to keep your life comfortable, but it's not like a big deal well, it's a big deal, the work is a bigger deal.

Speaker 2: 1:40:22

I'm not, I'm not underplaying the value of money yeah, but definitely let's.

Speaker 1: 1:40:28

Let's say the way it is. So if I come to you and I'm like there's this project you're building, but know that you know it's a startup and you see the value, you could actually get involved in it based on that especially if it's true.

Speaker 2: 1:40:41

Actually, right now I'm on a career break, so I decided to take time off after some time, and what I'm doing now is just dipping my toes in early stage startups. I'll give you a demo.

Speaker 1: 1:40:59

You've answered my question, but indirectly, but I hear you.

Speaker 2: 1:41:03

Yeah, so that's what I'm saying. From what I'm doing now. I'm not getting paid, Because even if the guy was to pay me, he probably wouldn't know it would be If you showed him your last paycheck, the conversion would end there. Exactly.

Speaker 1: 1:41:20

Now I'll ask another question, and I've seen this even before Microsoft.

Speaker 1: 1:41:27

everything came into play Whereby someone works for Google for five years and then eventually not that you know they're fired or anything. Or maybe their contract, you know, expires and they need to renew it, but they don't choose to renew it and they go and start doing music or doing some other things or be staff mostly. What was? Is this like they feel like they are more satisfied doing all these things? Or is this the personal choice to like take a break? What, what, what is this really process? Look like?

Speaker 2: 1:41:58

well, the part that the people most people don't, uh give a lot of attention to is the serving bit. Before you take like a career break, you need to have served for it. Oh, okay, because there is no source of income, you're only from like a savings. Yeah, yeah, and you have to have served for it.

Speaker 1: 1:42:10

Oh okay, because there is no source of income.

Speaker 2: 1:42:11

Yeah, you're only eating from liquor savings.

Speaker 1: 1:42:12

Yeah, yeah, and you have to have a plan around like what was what's that gonna look like if you're gonna come back. But I know a guy from uganda. Uh, maybe I should look for him when I'm there. Um, it's called elijah kitaka and he used to work for Google back in the day and he just just puts Google. And there's another guy who used to do Ruby. I think he's a American, I can't remember his name. He came to the community and said you know what? This is my last month at Google, uh, but I feel like I should not work for big tech anymore. I'm more interested in startup. I'm more interested in my other projects that are not even tech. Does big tech really take a huge toll on you? How is that?

Speaker 2: 1:42:57

Well, I've worked for Microsoft for 30 years.

Speaker 1: 1:42:59

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:43:03

So it depends on the person. It's an individual part, it's a case-by-case scenario, but you can have a very fulfilling life at Microsoft, at Google, at Facebook. So you know, it depends on what makes you tick. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:43:16

That makes a lot of sense, but I, okay, I'll look for this fox when I, yeah, when I get time. I think Elijah has some radio or something, if I remember. Yeah, very interesting fella, very interesting fella. Yeah, so you go to London for months, does it? And now you start working in Netlify. Am I saying it right, netlify? So what exactly is this? Building services?

Speaker 2: 1:43:44

So what Netlify does is it pioneered the idea of Jamstack? Jamstack is JavaScript, apis and Markdown. Essentially, before that, folks would love to build a WordPress. They love to bring up a WordPress instance and then maintain the WordPress backend, all that stuff right. The other thing is WordPress is quite slow. Or at least when Jamstack was sort of gaining steam, wordpress was quite slow. Or at least when Jamstaff was sort of gaining steam, wordpress was quite slow. Yeah, so Netlify pointed this whole idea of all you need is just Markdown and a set of APIs for you to cover a website on the internet. So what happens is when someone pushes their code to GitHub, netlify pulls that the code, builds, builds it and deploys it. So that is the build service. Now, that is the team where I was working. That's what we're doing, that's interesting.

Speaker 1: 1:44:40

Oh very much. It was like a new challenge. It was fun right.

Speaker 2: 1:44:44

Yes, also, the only downside was it was really easy to break people's workflow Because if you introduce a bug in the build it's like the backbone of the whole Netlify offering. So if you introduce a bug there the impact gets amplified really quickly. Or sometimes you could break, say, all Ruby builds Because there is a million other builds. You sort of don't notice that ruby builds are broken. So until someone treats or something, so has it ever happened? Oh yeah for sure A couple of times.

Speaker 1: 1:45:21

So was it like an insider joke? Guys, you have broken everyone.

Speaker 2: 1:45:25

Like a rite of passage.

Speaker 1: 1:45:29

Oh, so it was with you directly, or?

Speaker 2: 1:45:31

Oh yeah, like a broken production. Not the most fun of moments, but yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:45:37

Because you're like guys. Maybe you think I don't know what I'm doing. There's that self-doubt.

Speaker 2: 1:45:42

Oh yeah, we all have that Okay.

Speaker 1: 1:45:47

so how long do you work on that? How are you still working on it?

Speaker 2: 1:45:49

No, I was in Nellify for a year. I came back in Kenya last year in September. Okay, so I left Nellify when I came back to Kenya. I left for personal reasons, but also never really liked the UK, so I decided to come back home. And I decided, okay, since I'm coming back home, let me just take some time off. Okay okay.

Speaker 1: 1:46:13

So what is not good in London? You normally say Maisha.

Speaker 2: 1:46:18

London, qua grande London is a nice place, by the way. It's a nice place, it was just not for me.

Speaker 1: 1:46:29

You know, there's this joke that I used to share in high school when you want to sleep extra hours, when you're supposed to be sleeping, and we would surround our beds with curtains so that no one knows there's someone there and tuck it.

Speaker 1: 1:46:39

So when you look at it, it's very neat, but there's someone sleeping there and you don't move around. So when you get caught by maybe a prefect captain like Manze I was like Baisha Landon, maybe I prefer Captain Like Manze, I was like Maisha Landar. And then the parish. You know, this is the Maisha Landar.

Speaker 2: 1:46:57

Yeah Well, Landar is a good place.

Speaker 1: 1:46:58

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:47:02

Is it too expensive to live? You know it can be too expensive if you don't have a good job.

Speaker 1: 1:47:06

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:47:07

Well, thankfully, I mean.

Speaker 1: 1:47:15

I was okay, yeah, I was okay, yeah, yeah. So, uh, and is it a good place? To raise up a family, a young family? No, it's not yeah why that? There's okay, please paint the picture for me. I've never been okay.

Speaker 2: 1:47:24

I've just passed through idro, nothing much so, um, actually it might be a good place yeah, depends with a yeah, it depends with your with a number of things.

Speaker 2: 1:47:40

If your family there, it can be easier, but if it's just you, say, and your wife, or you and your husband, it can be difficult because, uh, child care is expensive. Even if you're earning a lot of money, childcare is expensive but it can really put a strain on your day-to-day life. And the other obvious thing is, of course, your value system. If you're more conservative, then probably not the best place. If you're more liberal, it could be an okay place. Yeah, I would say.

Speaker 1: 1:48:15

And there is every man for himself and God for us all. If you believe in God. Okay, so if you, that's even more interesting. If you don't believe in God, then that's why people go to therapy, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:48:31

You see, the strings are happy. You know why that's even more interesting. If you don't believe in God, then that's why people go to therapy.

Speaker 2: 1:48:34

The strings are happy. You know why therapy is not very common in Africa? It's because we go to church. We go there and sing and clap and laugh. When we come back home, we have released all the tension, so there is no build-up. This is my theory. Don't quote me on this. If you feel stressed, it would probably be a good idea to see a therapist. This is your personal opinion. It's why I've not gone to therapy. I go and sing, yeah, yeah, okay.

Speaker 1: 1:49:02

I tend to agree with you, but I also have another view about churches. Nowadays they look like personal businesses, most of them, and Catholics as well, also Catholic Okay, this aside, it looks like a Pope's business, but spirituality is very important. Let me say that If you really and I normally define with my guests three things that really are important Body, mind and soul and soul here can be your spirit If all those are stable enough, however, you keep them stable. It's very very important because life might push one.

Speaker 2: 1:49:42

So getting into philosophy actually made me appreciate the soul more than before I got into philosophy, because I would hear the word soul and it wouldn't mean anything, it would just be a good word.

Speaker 1: 1:49:57

I can understand you, and what I'm trying to say is that people should do more work in ensuring that they keep those three in balance and understand them clearly.

Speaker 2: 1:50:06

Yeah, I think everyone should at least read Apology by Plato. It's about Socrates defending himself when he was about to get judged for being an artist. Essentially, yeah, so everyone should read. It's a recommendation, a strongly recommended.

Speaker 1: 1:50:30

Yeah, and Plato works quite impressively, and a couple of others. The guy I talked about, Ken. He's a fan of some of those philosophers and it's really good. I even keep tabs on what he's reading and follow through. Yeah, so London doesn't work for you Well.

Speaker 2: 1:50:52

London works out, work for you. Well, london works out quite well actually, but I decided I didn't like it. So when things aligned, I decided to come back home.

Speaker 1: 1:51:02

Yeah, and you're back home and welcome back. You're like, how many months old? Three, four, six months, yeah, maybe six, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:51:11

You're enjoying, you know the weather is great. I mean, is it a better place to be than?

Speaker 1: 1:51:16

Mombasa yeah, you have your family close to you and even friends. Everything is familiar, yeah. So what next for Jafet?

Speaker 2: 1:51:29

That's a good question. So right now, uh, I might go back to employment. Okay, if things don't work out, okay, uh, but for the foreseeable future, I just see myself, uh, in startups, mm Early stage preferably. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:51:45

Yeah Well you're building end to end. Yes, uh, currently. So when I was uh coming back, when I said to come back, uh, joshua monique, who is a former country director of andela, uh calls me and tells me hey, jeff, I have this startup idea. Well, I have this startup. I was part of the idea initially, but before I went to london, yeah, and then that relocation made things difficult for me to be able to contribute to the startup. So when I decided to come back, he called me. He didn't know you were coming back. No, he didn't know I was coming back.

Speaker 2: 1:52:22

Just random Random. He asked me to come and help with the effort. So, that's what I'm doing right now, and maybe a few other things as well. Does he still?

Speaker 1: 1:52:33

work with Andel or he left no, he left Andel, interesting man. And then you know me from day zero. I'm now in support of entrepreneurship and building new solutions, new opportunities, because if you look at Africa at large, we need those to increase the employment, to increase the opportunities and create wealth, because right now there's a lot of scarcity whereby if someone offers you maybe you know just an otherwise deal, you just take it. But otherwise, if there were more deals, there could be more negotiation and you could make it, and then more people could have more resources to build. You know more solutions. So please follow the rule.

Speaker 1: 1:53:18

But of course, I understand, when you have a family, things can get a bit difficult and you really need to get something. Don't feel like you know, it's up to you, man. At the end of the day, it's what you make with what you have. So, jafet, when we started this both the mic, you know you gave us some interesting proverbs. I love them. We have made it a habit to always conclude using you know African proverbs and since you sound like you're familiar with the Soili one, anyone that comes off.

Speaker 2: 1:53:55

Oh yeah, oh yeah okay.

Speaker 1: 1:53:59

But after that we can encourage guys to subscribe, like, subscribe and share. This is a YouTube channel, sure.

Speaker 2: 1:54:10

The one we talked about when we started this podcast was uh Kufa Kwa Kiba, kufa Kwa Kiba. Rain In your Vivo yeah, it translates to dying of thirst in the ocean is laziness, uh, which is sort of like uh, an ironical, uh, sort of like a, a dodge more than a advice, really. Yeah so, but essentially it means that when you're in a place where there is a lot of resources and then you fail to do well, then it is out of pleasantness, okay yeah, you have another one off the charts um, not a proverb, but I will say a philosophy.

Speaker 2: 1:54:54

One will be socrates. Uh, know thyself. It's very useful to know you're because that all matters of toys hidden down because not only does it matter, it gives you, it helps you decide what is good for you, because if you don't know yourself, you don't know what is good for you. Yes, you don't have enough information to decide what's good for you.

Speaker 1: 1:55:24

Okay, okay, okay. Thank you so much, Jaffer.