The President As Top Diplomat with Kevin Karuga S02 E02

We connect governance, diplomacy, and everyday life by asking why leadership credibility can attract investment or chase it away. We also challenge the cycle of tribal loyalty and vote buying, and map out what citizens can do to demand integrity and real accountability. 
• comparing governance structures and what public participation looks like in practice 
• explaining why the president acts as the country’s top diplomat 
• linking corruption, cartels, and national reputation to foreign investment decisions 
• reflecting on Gen Z protests and why voters forget lessons at election time 
• calling for issue-based elections instead of personality politics and cash handouts 
• questioning how democracy can be distorted by propaganda and weak candidate selection 
• arguing for young candidates plus technocrats and long-term national planning 
• starting integrity at home and rejecting the celebration of unexplained wealth 
• using practical accountability tools like voting, monitoring, and recall provisions 
You can check us out on all social media platforms. 
You can also find us across all podcast channels. 
Simply search for Impactmasters. 
Link us from my follow and share www.impactmasters.io. 

Transcript

Welcome To Impact Masters

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Impact Masters Podcast, in collaboration with African Talking Retold Podcast, where every conversation sparks new insights. Join us as we delve into the stories of extraordinary individuals who are shaping our world. Movers and shakers in tech, policymakers, entrepreneurs, entertainers, and all of those whose stories are worth telling. Get ready to be inspired, challenged, and transformed. Welcome and let's embark on this journey of discovery together. Impactmasters podcast. You can check us out on all social media platforms. You can also find us across all podcast channels. Simply search for Impactmasters. Link us from my follow and share www.impactmasters.io. Here's your host, Michael Kamandi.

Comparing Governance Models Up Close

SPEAKER_02 0:59

There's Numbakumi actually there works effectively. Even you cannot rent a house there without the approval of the neighbors. Yes. Did you like point out those kind of models?

SPEAKER_01 1:09

We did, and of course, that that also came up very much in our discussions from the you know from our classes. Yes. Because we wanted to understand the diff the different governance structures. Of course, you see you see they are autocratic, they are les a faits, you know, they are democratic. So we pointed all those. Yes. And where people are deeply involved in what is happening. Okay. You know, in governance. And it's very interesting. And the day I become a diplomat, because I know I will become a diplomat, either I'll become top diplomat, and you know the president is the top diplomat. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

Oh, the president is always the top diplomat.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

He's a top diplomat because you've heard even uh how how how how much he he travels. But but but but but but generally, in any country, yes, the number one diplomat is the president.

Why The President Is Top Diplomat

SPEAKER_02 2:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Okay? Because the president needs to be able to, and for good reason, even when when when our own president is is traveling, we want to believe he is going out there to ensure that he's talking well about the country, he's bringing investments in the country. And of course, they do that. You've seen uh across the board from the days of Kenyatta, of course, Kenyatta did not travel much. Kenyatta one. Yes. In fact, uh he sent uh President Moy, then the his vice president, a lot of to all these OAU functions. President Moy also was not known to travel a lot, but he did a bit one there. But of course, during his uh that was a time when uh there was a lot of turbulence here and there with IMF, whatnot. Kibaki, President Kibaki as well, uh did a bit of travel, and you see, yeah, with all these things, he was able to bring infrastructure. President Kenyatta as well was able. So you're a top diplomat. When you're president, you're the top diplomat. And you're the one who represents your country well. So that is why when we have sometimes when a country has a president that is that has been seen in negative light, yes, it already affects the diplomacy of that country. You you you realize that uh in countries that uh are considered failed states or pariah states, the presidents are looked at in very bad light.

Reputation, Investment, And Cartels

SPEAKER_01 3:20

And as a result of that kind of publicity, people shy away from even visiting from visiting and even from even bringing in investments. Yes, because your investment is as good as the governance structure on the ground. Yes, you've had even investors running away because they have been asked for kickbacks, not only in the in Kenya, but across Africa. Yes, and those are the things that we may need to change, re-evaluate, and change because I mean you have to be as a top diplomat be able to clean up. But you've had uh cartels, uh, it's very difficult to clean up cartels.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

Cartels fight back, yes, yes, yes, and they fight hard, but I mean uh at the end of the day, it's it's and this is where I stand, and I think Gen Z can relate that sometimes we create our own problems, yeah. And and if we're really honest about you know cleaning up things, we could clean them up within a year. Yeah, if we're really honest, we want to clean them up. Yeah, because even the current government, most of the opposition they are facing is whereby they are saying one thing, but what is happening is totally the opposite. And you know, now it's not like the days of Moy and Kenyatas and Kibaki. People can actually communicate within instants, seconds, and everything, everyone knows what is going on. People can actually source this information through digital means. People like a Danny project you hear is someone in France who share the papers and the agreement. So it's it's a world where we need to know that people are more knowledgeable. The technology is really you know there. It's ahead of most of these people. And it's no longer where you think that if if maybe deals benefit you alone, the the world will progress or the country you are in will progress. You need to accommodate public participation, public benefit, and the interest of the people. Yeah, sometimes even some of these investments they're not worth it if at all the burden the wanain chi will depend on. So I'm disappointed.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

Yeah, I'm disappointed uh a lot a lot in in weakenions because we we we seem to forget very easily.

Gen Z Protests And Tribal Loyalty

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Yes. And when we had the Gen Z protests recently, yes, I remember I went for Mandamano myself before people started looting. Yes, and uh in fact that day when people were getting into parliament, we were out in Mandamano with some of our colleagues. Interesting, yeah, and it was very peaceful Mandamano, and I you could tell and you could see young people ensuring, you know, going out to participate. Yes, but then when election time comes, people completely forget. People go back into their cocoons, into their tribal cocoons, and say who mutu, mutu, you've had like now we have mutua murima, and it is fine, whatever you do, yes, usiguze murima. Usiguze murima. But you see, yes, when you think about it, even if you have your person there, who as president, as member of parliament, you don't benefit directly, as you know, me as Karuga, I will not benefit directly because a person from my my kinsman is president. So we need to go and ensure that we are able to elect leaders who are going to bring my endeleo, who are going to ensure that we move the country forward. Yes, and all the crop of all the crop of politicians we have now. We need to ensure that we we we we we clear them away. Because if we don't, it is a good thing.

Rotating Politicians And Money Elections

SPEAKER_01 7:05

If you look at uh what what is happening today, yes, you remember Pentagon? Yes, Pentagon was against uh who that time or uh a banana it was uh against the banana. Banana movement, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

So it's like orange against banana movement because of the constitution you know movement whereby there was a referendum call for new constitution, yeah, but the other side was saying okay, we need also need a new constitution, but there's some clauses that should not be in this new constitution. But you see, all these people have been together.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Yes, when you look at just changed the different parties, prime cabinet cabinet secretary, uh Honorable Musalia is in the government now, is in government, they used to be with the with Baba, they used to be with uh Calonzo, yes, all of them, and these other speakers of the Bunge, scoreangula, Wetangula, all of they just rotate.

SPEAKER_02 7:55

There's William Ruto, that was the Pentagon, actually.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

But if we if we actually go to this coming election, issue-based, and we say okay. So everyone goes home in actuality, everyone goes home. We go issue-based. I was heavily involved in the last election, and I was sad because elections just revolve around money and revolve around personalities. You come give people a thousand shillings, five hundred shillings. That's it. These people will say when they go to boonge, when they go to offices, we bought your votes. Yes. So it is our time to eat. Yes. So if we can take this time and say, okay, we are going to go and elect a fresh pair of hands that you can hold accountable. And if we put you in office, we are not putting you because you have the money, or because people just get into these offices sometimes to go and just cut the investments and cut deals, recoup the investment, keep us impoverished, and then we will never continue moving. So we we are in the same cycle day and day. We will do that podcast again on the political situation.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

But it's man, it's very important that we talk about this, even if it's briefly. Um these were, by the way, I look at the both sides of the coin. And even this you can refer to the coiners of democracy as it is, who are going to the election in November in 2024.

Democracy, Propaganda, And Fact Checking

SPEAKER_04 9:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

And the Democrats, ironically, did not even uh go for primaries for their uh you know candidates. Yeah, yeah. Which begs the question of like if these guys are the coiners of democracy, is democracy even right the way it is? Is it even set to really help you know the common person? Also, when you look at the social media, because now it's public, when things when the debate happens there, you can see it in real time, you can see the feedback, you can see people actually fact-checking, like where you know Kamala was saying, you know, they have cleared all the military from different war zones around the world. And then the military himself in those war zones fact-checked in the real time. So the question then comes to is if even if you elect the whoever you elect, are you really electing that person or are you electing them for other people's interests? But beside that point, I feel like we need also to fact-check because propaganda is another tool that is being used in different democratic elections, yeah, and hence people make wrong decisions. And I think there's something that came out of Gen Z, and that's why now we mentioned people like Morara and many others, where people are doing civic education. Because you see, some most of the time, majority of people vote are not in the cities where the information is circulating in the real time. Yeah, actually, there are people who, if you ask about the Occupy movement, they don't they're not aware. They were saying those are, you know, the Vijana Waleo who are trying to disrupt the governance. You know that those people believe that once someone is elected, yes, which is supposed to be the case anyway, you need to give them a chance to rule because at the end of the day, majority spoke and minority were listened to as it is it goes.

SPEAKER_04 11:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:07

So, how do you ensure that everyone is well educated civically? The young people encourage the importance of getting, you know, the elector's card and they show up that day to vote. But besides that, because it's at the end of the day, if you are presented with two rotten apples, yeah, whichever you choose, you are damned. Yeah, how do you ensure that actually is the case?

SPEAKER_01 11:31

I think for me, from where I sit is that number one, we need to, as you said, fact check and see who are the leaders that are when you you you said we are opposed with two rotten

Getting Better Candidates On The Ballot

SPEAKER_01 11:44

apples. Yes, young people have shied away from presenting themselves to the electorate. Of course, because they know it's going to be a contest on money and fame, who has what. So the first step is first of all, can we have young people who submit themselves to the electorate? And first of all, I would expect someone like Morana Kebasu to be on the ballot in the next election because we have seen what he's able to do. But again, I'm also disappointed while it is possible for young people to bring themselves to uh to the electorate. Do you remember the young people that of yester years that presented themselves to the electorate?

SPEAKER_02 12:27

One of them is known as Kimani Chung. Now Rafael Tuju, them days.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

At the end of the day, all these people are why I have to be.

SPEAKER_02 12:45

I don't know why he is a Lady anymore.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

You see, you've had even uh recently we've had uh what is the name of uh the the fellow from Mumia's Salassia Peter Salassia. I like the guy, but the the Peter Salassia who was elected is all the same or Toto. Yeah, who was elected?

SPEAKER_02 13:02

So, what is the problem? Because that's why I say at the end of the day, yes, election is good, democracy is good from the sound of it, but in reality, yeah, the way it is coined and the way it is shaped and the way it's structured, yeah, it has evidently shown that it doesn't deliver the desired result of the common person who has no ability to, because you see, we cannot all be leaders, yes, and sometimes, and and this is something I I I've come to believe over time uh because if you're elected as president or the uh top diplomat, it's also good to engage technocrats who have no interest in politics to shape the narrative or to create the vision even beyond your tenor. Yes, and what this actually does, it is sobers up the programs and the initiatives and even the expenditure throughout the course of your tenor and beyond your tenor. Yes. And I can use Vision 2030 and all other visions that are being created in the world. Some of them actually people have are against them and they don't see the value or they look like they favor certain maybe Western world and all. But that's debatable. Yes, because you see, post your 10 years, which most of the time you might not make the desirable change, yeah, then you want the person who comes in, they have an uh a structure they can be able to fit in and implement. And and today, if those structures are not set in 2002, today we'll not be enjoying the you know the infrastructure we have, may not be enjoying the free education that we know most of us are beneficiaries, we might not have been enjoying the good hospitals that we have as much as you know the pre the post the government that came afterwards, yeah, actually messed up the whole plan. But as a you will be known one day you'll become a top diplomat. Yes. What would be your plan?

Teaching Integrity And Naming The Rot

SPEAKER_01 15:00

So I was explaining that the first thing is that we need to young people to give themselves to the electorate, yes, but it does not start there, it starts with our children. Are we able to inculcate values of integrity right from when we are bringing them up? Because we have and we have an opportunity to start from afresh. Yes, because there is a generation of young people who have seen young people who have seen people who attender preneurs become overnight celebrities, people they you know they have they have had so much money. I was reading a post by Pauline Joroge, you know, Pauline Joroge, and Pauline Jorogue was saying that she said that the people that our young people are looking up to are people who have sprang into unexplained wealth, unexplained riches with very little education. So if we would start from at our home, we teach our children the values of integrity, the values of ensuring that you can be a good steward to resources that are put to you. Yes, that's it. Step number one, and that is goes uh along within the education's uh education system. And then we ensure that once we have elected leaders who are visionary, like now, for example, someone like uh Okiya Umtata. Yes, we have seen how he has been consistent with fighting for the uh for the plight of the people of this country. But how long did it take for him to become even a senator? Okay, people always sabotaged. Of course, now he's senate, he's he's a senator, but he has not stopped it. We would need people like those who are luminaries, people who you are able to see. Oh, these are guys who, when given an opportunity, they can serve, they can serve and they they ensure integrity. I cannot speak uh about the integrity, for example, of uh someone like uh Matiangi, but I know during his tenure or the late Prophet Amagoha, you could tell us there was a change. Or Michuki.

SPEAKER_02 17:06

You know that those uh outstanding people who actually those were outstanding people, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

But of course, these people are hindered by number one, the cartels and the greed in government. And the reason why the people that we are mentioning get into government and they are not able to do much, they find themselves in what Miguna Biguna calls a cal de sack. You cannot move forward, you cannot move back because you are surrounded by highness, and everybody wants their cut. Yes, from the member of parliament to the contractor to the senator to the governor, yes, it becomes it becomes a rotten society. Yes. But then we also need to learn from what has happened now. You had the the shameful thing that happened on Finland. The Finland scholarships in uh was in Gishu. Yes, and uh one lady from Maya Alma Mata, I think uh her name is Masita Roos. I saw her on TV when she was uh grilling uh the the you know the governor then and the senator asking one and only Mandago Yes asking them have you ever do you know any any any depress antidepressants? Yeah, all your children are out there in good schools, yes, abroad, yes, but for us, our money has gone. How is it that we have gotten to that point where our leaders now not only fail to give us proper leadership, yes, but are stealing from us, yes, even the smallest we have. So if we learn to jituna mask and say, hey, 2027 and the other coming years, we are not going to be, you know, we're not we're not going to be fooled again. We are going to ensure we go and elect leaders who have the best interest. Yes. And anybody who has been known to loot, and you first of all don't elect such person. Anybody who has a negative record, I don't understand why we still have people who are money laundering and they are known.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

Yes. And drug dealers.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

And drug dealers, they are known, but we give them. Yeah. When someone comes to touch, yes, Mutia Murima. And a very simple case, as uh I say in passing, you remember when uh these I told you I was heavily involved in the last election. Yes. And you remember it was the former prime minister, Baba Raila Umolodinga, against uh President William Luto. And you remember President Uhuru was backing Baba, yes, and of course, they had a fallout with the the deputy president at that time. And the the famous person from the Murima, who uh our own very our own uh regarding Gashagua, even during the day of the swearing in at Kasarandi, embarrassed President Kenyatta in front of foreign dignitaries, spoke threatening messages, yes, spoke very, you know, he's a truthful man, but he spoke in a way that uh you know was very disparaging to President Kenyatta.

SPEAKER_02 20:00

But now look, he's now facing the same music.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

Everybody now in the mountain, yes, there uh I heard there were 48 members of parliament that uh signed a petition to say, oh, this person from the Murima, we don't want him, we want another one. Uh Professor Kentiki is going to be the one we are going to talk to. Uh huh. You know, yes, he's facing the same fate that faced uh President Kenyatta. Yes, so these things what goes around is it that comes around that comes around.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

But I think uh, you know, also when you think about our Ebo his excellency Uru Kenyatta, I feel like also we are cheated. Because you see, this chief said for 10 years straight. Yes, this is my you know what I think about the way the way leadership is set right now, the president and the deputy president. Yes, it's like a husband and a wife. Yes. If you tell me this is my wife, yes, I know this is the right person, yes, regardless of their weakness. Yes, and he said that twice. Yes, and they until maybe he said twice and he was in first year, second year, that's when we started seeing now the the the the the the the the the the the show that we saw between the deputy president and president. So for me, I feel also it did not do us justice. Number one, number two, it the argument was not honest, and also if for sure he knew what was the problem with this chief, he could have said it bluntly because people were asking, what is the problem with your deputy? You see, even the people of Murima were asking, tell us Kinagawbaga, yes, this is the problem, but he can't, you know. Let me blame around,

Interests Shift And Alliances Break

SPEAKER_02 21:41

let me tell you.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Yes, and I'll start by saying that uh in this country and all over the world, there are no permanent friends or permanent enemies in uh in politics, only interests is interests that shift, yes, and the president then and the president. Now the only thing that they could not afford, they could not afford to say anything at that time, especially during his first term, is because again I'll bollow Meguna Meguna's word, he was in the call destack because if he dropped Deputy President Ruto at that time, people from the rift valley would come ban guns blazing. Yes. So he was he he was his hands were tied. Yes. So he could not start saying anything. And remember, they also had that other issue of ICC together.

SPEAKER_02 22:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

So nobody would want to say too much. President Kenyatta only started speaking, the rift became apparent in his second term when he knew that I have already crossed the Rubicon. So I cannot go back. Whether you elect me again, you I mean, I am not asking for another term.

SPEAKER_04 22:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

So I am going to go guns blazing. And that is when you remember a lot of responsibilities that were for the deputy president were assigned to people like uh Dr. Matiangi. Yes. And in fact, he he was cut because he was campaigning all over the place, you remember. Even though Tim Tanga Tang and whatnot. Yes, Tim Tang. And you see, now I had President Luto telling uh now, please, Punguza Jyotoya 2027. That was the same person who was doing the same two years ago.

SPEAKER_02 23:22

We are joking. You see, let me tell you something, and and this is very serious because you see here, and and I think I don't know why people don't see this. We are we're just playing with fire, yeah. And fire here means we can lose everything, all the you know, the steps you have made towards big forward. Because you see, people like us are getting old, yeah. Even the Gen Z, maybe by the time 2027 and 2032 is coming in, yes, they also hold. Yes, or maybe they they are not the same age. That's what I mean. And guess what? The newer generation are not taking it. Yeah, and it's crazy, guys. So we need to sober up and create, be fair, because at the end of the day, everyone wants a good life, yeah, decent life, and they are not saying give me. There's no one actually who has ever expected government to give them housing. Of course, I know there are some countries where you're you're given housing, you're given food food stamp. At least in Africa, we have a great land. We're just asking for a platform to be able to do our farming, not be over taxed on the fertilizers and whatnot, be charged fairly. Yeah, where we agree. And I think what your your this is should be implemented fully, whereby there's proper public participation. Yes, because we don't expect someone in central to pay X, someone in Northeastern to pay X, and then they get Y, all of them, yeah, but they did not pay the same X. Yeah, it is unfair because that person will feel like it's being stolen away from me. So there are so many issues that need to be addressed. Education, where people at least expecting to get educated, offer their service across the world, yeah. You are destroying that. You are you are you are you are coming and saying anyone who needs the loans, they need to have I don't know which certificate, I don't know, apply this way, that way, and then by the time you do all these processes, the school that are started. Someone misses a whole year. Yes, already that missed year does not, they will never recover from it. It's a wasted year in their life.

SPEAKER_04 25:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

So if you put all these things, guess what? Even 2027 looks like it's far away. So as a leader, when you get there, there's so many issues to be addressed, policy-wise, structure-wise, and political.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

Yeah, and just in summary, to what you have asked is how we are going to be able to at least change

Register, Vote, Recall, Stay Engaged

SPEAKER_01 25:41

that. I have said, number one, we are going to ensure that we start from our local village, our homes, to educate our kids on the importance of integrity and whatnot, good governance. Yes. Number two, we need to, the young people who are the majority, need to get involved. Yes. And not only become keyboard warriors, but get involved by register to vote and actually go and vote and ensure that you understand, you know your leaders. And then after you have voted, can you keep your leaders accountable? Yes. What we saw during the Genesis protests. Because you see, the the the thing was uh withdrawn. Yes. The the finance bill was withdrawn. So ensure that you keep this. And in the constitution, we even have clauses for recall. You are recalling these people who you sent to Bunge. Yes. You are able to recall them from uh your MCA level. So once you have done that, and then just keep yourself abreast with what is going on. Don't be on the periphery saying there are people who are going to fight for us, Boniface Mwangi is going to fight for us, Morala Kibasu is going to go for us. And I've seen people now on Twitter, on TikTok, people are going to check, getting involved with what he's doing. And can you sound the alarm? When people have become dishonest, when there is, you see, what has been happening to Adani, when uh we have leaders who are coming to to flount on us and say, you know, my watch is very expensive, you know, my shoe I bought, how much? I mean, those are not the kind of people that the kind of leaders that we would want. And then encourage civic education amongst ourselves, and let us also educate our own parents and parents' parents to ensure that as we go, and vernacular stations have done a very good job these days. There is a lot of education. I told you my grandmother listens to Inoro day in and day out, and she can describe their done deal today eloquently and tell you what their done deal is. She can describe to you what uh the finance bill was and the steps that have been taken. Yes. So I think we just need to continually engage that. And finally, during elections, can we reduce on electing people based on how much money they they bring? In fact, people used to say kura, kula kafulani, kura mutuflani. But then we need to ensure that our we are not influenced, we are not bothered by eating. By eating.

SPEAKER_02 28:07

But we're not saying that to an angry person is very hard.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

Yeah, but see, that person, uh my question to those people is because we gave them 500 in 2022. Yes, how long did that 500 last? Because people have very sweet mouths. You remember we were told, you remember? I mean that's blatant. Na free Wi-Fi.