Ugo Monye: On being a strong male ally for women's sport
Sue Anstiss:
Hello, and welcome to The Game Changers, the podcast where we hear from trailblazers in women's sport, I'd like to start with a huge thank you to our partners at Sport England, who are kindly supporting the next three series of The Game Changers through the National Lottery. I'm your host, Sue Anstiss and I'm switching things up a little bit with this interview and rather than talking to a trailblazing woman in sport, my guest today is a high-profile male ally. Ugo Monye is a former Harlequins, England, and British and Irish Lions rugby player, who's now more familiar to us as a sports broadcaster, podcaster and TV presenter.
He's a captain on BBC's Question of Sport and also took part in last year's Strictly Come Dancing. When not talking about rugby on TV shows and podcasts, Ugo is a chair of the RFU diversity and inclusion advisory group, and recently became a trustee of the Women's Sport Trust charity. Ugo, I know you’re passionate about ensuring rugby is a sport that's accessible for everyone. Why is that so important to you?
Ugo Monye:
Well, I think lots of it is based on my upbringing and actually having an opportunity to still be part of the game, but a step removed, like when I retired and currently do what I do, people say, what does that feel like? And I said, I've stepped away, but I haven't moved that far. And it's given me a far greater perspective on things. A bit of background working class family went to a state school and rugby really came part of my awareness when I went to private school. And you and I have chatted about this quite a lot. You know, the pathways to play for England is a well-trodden pathway and it starts at private school as it did for me, but only 7% of the population go to private school. And that's incredible for anyone that can provide that opportunity.
Ugo Monye:
I also tell people that when I played in the premiership I was probably considered one of the quickest on the international circuit, one of the quickest about, but in my state score, I wasn't the quickest in my year and my USP in rugby was being quick. And I'm like, no, I was just the lad that got the opportunity. So I can pat myself in the back and think about, I got to where I got because of this level of meritocracy in the game. But actually I was just one of the fortunate ones to get given an opportunity. So I would love the base level of opportunity to be spread as far and wide for so many different reasons, so many different reasons, which we probably don't have enough time to get into. But <laugh>, that's where, that's the genesis of the deep kind of unsettling feeling that I have about this.
Sue Anstiss:
And did you feel, I mean, you've mentioned there in terms of that history of rugby, very closely aligned to private school, to Oxbridge this kind of privileged white men in society. Did you feel like you belonged in rugby? Were you made to feel, was it a welcoming place for you?
Ugo Monye:
It was I mean the first reason I took on rugby 13 was to make friends and that philosophy didn't really change much even in my professional days, but I always felt that I was welcome. As to whether I belonged. I don't know, to be honest, I was always made to feel welcome and rugby's very good at welcoming people in, but it's not very good at stretching his arms out. And I guess I had to fit into the mold of rugby rather than rugby, accept absolutely anyone and everyone, because you look right through the academy systems and I'm going back a number of years now and it was a carbon copy of identical stories of, oh, what you went to private school. Oh, you went to the academy. I want you play for… Okay, cool. It's it looks a lot more different now. And I think it's more welcoming and understanding of the different backgrounds which people are coming from as illustrated by the Ellis Genger and a Kyle Sinkler just to mention a couple of names
Sue Anstiss:
I do love that analogy of being very welcoming, but not stretching its arms wide enough. I'll be using that at some point in the future. I think <laugh> but, uh, can you tell us a little bit about the RFUs diversity and inclusion advisory group, you chair and, and its ambitions in terms of making a sport more inclusive?
Ugo Monye:
Yeah. Diversity means a lot of things to a lot of different people, but essentially it gives us a bandwidth to be able to look at all the protected characteristics and, essentially fulfill the mission statement of what rugby is in this country. It is, you know celebrated as a game for all the sport for all, all different shapes and sizes, creeds, religions, and everything in between. we're there as an independent body to keep the RFU accountable. We take projects provided by the RFU, but we've also undertaken some of our own <laugh>, which we've also pushed back to the RFU and I guess there's been some case studies in the last year, whether it be, Exeter Chiefs and their rebranding. So that's in 20 seconds what we are there to do, but we're to ensure the kind of core values that sorry, if I'm taking a step back, I don't care what people wanna say they wanna be. I really don't. I just care about the actions people take towards doing it. So I want to ensure that the mission statement of the game is more than just PR, but they're actually meaningful words that lead to actions for it to be the very thing it says it wants to be
Sue Anstiss:
Excellent. Hear here. And I should say that I sit on that, uh, group with you to, while we're laughing about the ambition of that group. I didn't say that upfront <laugh> and I, I know how busy you are and how much in demand you are right now, but recently you became a, a trustee and the women's sport trust, and it was so many requests and on opportunities. Why was that specifically important to you?
Ugo Monye:
Well, I think for me there'd always been a fire within me to want to do something more in the women's game, but I think off the wake of George Floyd and his murder I spoke a lot about to, and it really triggered something in me. I know a lot of emotion and this unwanted relationship I have with racism. And the one thing I kept repeatedly saying is we need allies. You know, it's not just a black people problem. We need allies. If we really want to tackle this and wrestle it and fix it and get over it. And I found it interesting, this all took place during the pandemic and I've kept telling people, this is a pandemic called racism, which has been part of our society for centuries, and there still is no cure and we've managed to find a cure in inverted commas to COVID in record time because the joint forces people coming together, holding hands because they feel it's the best thing to do to help protect people and society.
If I'm trying to combat injustice, I can't just combat injustice for the things that matter to me. I need to look for beyond just the things that affect me. And I have two daughters, what's the world gonna look like for them growing up? How can I protect that? I need to be an ally and to use my voice and passion. And it has to be a passion. It can't just be a flag bearing exercise to try and combat and position myself to try and help and support.
Sue Anstiss:
I've referred to you as a, a male ally in women's sport. And I've seen personally how you quietly influence behind the scenes. And you've always been very prepared to listen and learn about the issues too. So you alluded a little bit to that kind of journey so far, but if you had to describe to other men, why you feel that gender inequality in sport matters so much, what, what would you say to kind of get them on board too
Ugo Monye:
Well, first of all, like sport doesn't have a gender. If we're talking globally about football, rugby, tennis, hockey, badminton, tiddlywinks, whatever, it just doesn't like, I'm passionate about rugby. I am passionate about the game and, and therefore I dedicate and position myself as trying to protect the whole game. And that includes men and women's rugby. That's what it is. I think people are inhibited to do things because often they don't want to be the first or they don't want any kind of backlash or to come across as sanctimonious or righteous or virtue signaling, which is a phrase I hate. But if you think it's the right thing to do and you're passionate about it, then do it, just be consistent in your actions. That's what I would suggest because I know that I had a privileged life as a rugby player and I had a reasonable career.
Ugo Monye:
I also am fully aware and accepting of the fact that if I was a female, I never would've achieved the things that I would've that I achieved in my career just because I was a woman. Period. It's just undisputed. It's just like case closed on that. And so in the same way, when I look at rugby now, and my focus is on the next generation, it should be the next generation for men and women to create opportunities. I think in elite sport, it's this weird timeline of events, or lifespan where you try and do everything you can do to position yourself, to be a professional. And then you get towards the end of your career. And I think very good professionals in the loosest terms, the best, in my eyes at least make themselves redundant because all you want to do whilst you are passing out the game is impart all that knowledge into the next generation and you make yourself redundant.
Ugo Monye:
In my last couple of years, I, all I wanted to do was help. Whoever was gonna take my jersey and fill my boots as equipped and best placed to be able to do that. You have to sacrifice yourself because at some point in your, it doesn't, it's actually just not about you. Like my career was cool. I won some medals. I'd scored some tries and played for England, but that was all me like that's, that's wicked. Like it's really cool, but it's all just me. Is that it? is that my relationship with rugby just to serve myself ? and it's fine if that's how people want to see it. It's only a, a small life stint. You sacrifice a lot for it, but is that it? Or is there more that I can do? Is, is there a way in which I can affect the game a bit better beyond, oh, well Ugo was good. He' scored tries and look, look how great he is I dunno, I look at people and I'm like, they were a great rugby player, but I'm six years retired. And before the age of 50 I'd have spent just as many years retired as I did as a professional, but is just my value as a person, just a good rugby player? I think it's more important to be a good person.
Sue Anstiss:
You mentioned that your two beautiful daughters, I call them beautiful. You just mentioned you had two daughters, but Phoenix and Ruby and obviously that whole being a dad of girls and, and changing your views on gender equality too, do you think you would be doing as much for women sport if you'd had two sons, do you think it would've come to you anyway that seeing that injustice and inequality?
Ugo Monye:
I think when it's closer to home, it's, it's, it gets more personal, doesn't it? I want Phoenix and Ruby to be anything they want to be. Do I strongly believe that is possible today? Yeah. Do I think they'll have, um, more barriers because of their gender than what I had? Yeah, absolutely. So I wanna break them down. I just wanna support them. I, I, I would never sit down with Phoenix and say, you know what, because you're a woman. I think you are gonna struggle in life because you know, the world is so skewed and made up to be a man's world and you are just gonna have to be a, you know, bystander in it and work double as hard. I will teach her that I think it's really important to work twice as hard, only because working twice as hard is a good commodity to have, not because you are a female ummm.
Sue Anstiss:
How would you feel about her playing rugby
Ugo Monye:
Based on how its today?
Sue Anstiss:
Yeah, the women's game now, right now.
Ugo Monye:
It's not good enough. It's actually just not good enough. The headline is the women's game is professional, but scratch is surface. And I dunno, you'd have to deconstruct the meaning of what professional is, what? That you get paid? Does that mean it's professional? Cause I spoke to and I reached out to a couple of female rugby players in the last season who had to crowdfund to pay for their own surgeries, international players, what? that's not very professional. But I was having this conversation yesterday and once upon a time, not that long ago when it was an amateur sport, women, rugby players were having to commit themselves wholly to rugby whilst maintain a job. And that's not conducive to being the best rugby player that you want to be. But in another sense, one of my biggest fears about professional sport is how players transition off the back of it.
They're almost better placed for the end of their career than they perhaps are now. It's not like the money they're being offered right now would do anything to set them up for later life. But they've all had to put to one side, a career, which has far greater longevity to be all they can. So this professionalism, who is it serving? Is it serving the game.
If I was a red rose who was offered a professional contract and it was sold to me that you are gonna be professional, I'd say, okay, cool. But if what was sold to me was this is the Dawn of professionalism. It's far from perfect, far from perfect, but we want to financially reward you for the hard work and how you're gonna inspire hundreds of thousands, if not millions, to want to get into the sport. And you girls are gonna be the first people to lay the foundation for, for what professionalism looks like. Do you want to be part of that journey?
Ugo Monye:
That for me is far more enticing and actually far more honest because when I speak to some of the women that play in the Allianz 15s, and they talk about how they'll have a three o'clock kickoff, but it actually starts at 10 past three because the ref is sprinting across the field from one match to get to another to then referee their game. How there's no TMO in place, which can have a, you know, I know in the men's game, there's Scouts and monitoring that's, um, works in symbiosis with TMOs to identify head challenges and all the rest of it. The level of playing fields are not good enough. Pitches aren't good enough. The money's not good enough. The medical system's not good enough, but the headline is we're number one in the world we’ve won back to back to back Grand slams and the women will break a record in their next match they play in the upcoming months of consecutive matches won, they go to the world cup later on this year as tournament favourites, record victories against New Zealand. It's great, but let's put context to all of it. It's not good enough. And I think there needs to a mental shift in the women's game of ‘I'm just grateful that we've got money’ it's of course, everyone's grateful that it's better than what it was, but at some point it's got to also be allied with ‘It's better, but we’ve still got a long way to go.’
Sue Anstiss:
I'm nodding. People can't say I'm nodding, vigorously with everything you say there. I guess the bits that will shift some of that, is attendances and funding and, and for the profile of a sport, and that is getting better you attend games, you’re within the stadium, do you feel the attitude of male fans to the women's game is changing and is that changing fast enough?
Ugo Monye:
Um, it's not changing fast enough. I guess in the same way, if I was to go to Twickenham, which I will do in a, in a few weeks, um, if I was to look at the percentage of men to female, it's so massively skewed and that would be the same for the women's game. You know, if it's 90% men at Twickenham and watching being the men's team to 10% women, that's just an arbitrary number, which I'm just plucking out the sky. It'd be the same. If I went to watch the red roses take on Italy in a few weeks
Sue Anstiss:
In terms of women, that percentage being women,
Ugo Monye:
Women to men, yeah. 90% women, 10% men. And I would like to see a, a greater balance of both. I think there needs to be an education piece around cause as an ignorant man that doesn't understand women's rugby. The first thing you do is just make a sheer comparison to the thing you know, that's just a natural instinct to have. It's not wrong. You're not a bad person for thinking it. If you've for the last 20 years, watch men's rugby. Now you've been offered women's rugby. Well, what, you know, they don't kick the ball as far and they're not as far, they're not skillful. They're not all these things. The women's game is so different to the men's game. It's like me trying to explain to someone who's been a 7s fan for all of his life, watch 15s, you would never compare 15s to the 7s.
They're just two separate entities. And I think we need to delineate the men's game from the women's game rather than competing. They are separate products for separate athletes and specimen and totally different hand batch stories. The men's team in the premiership or international commit their whole lives from morning to night to be a professional athlete, there will be certain female athletes that have had to do a full day's work and then arrive at training. So I'm sorry if the product that you see at the weekend, isn't as good as the men's because it's just not starting on the same level playing field. I think we need to celebrate our women more and you know, there's, there's lots of other things like you've already mentioned in terms of sponsorship. And I think I can only speak about what's happening at an international level and a slight domestic level. A lot of the sponsorship partners or historic sponsorship partners are spreading the money a bit evenly. Broadcasting's just not where you'd want it to be. It's not. And I work for a broadcasting channel.
Sue Anstiss:
Can I ask you a bit about that? Cause I, I was gonna come onto that and obviously it is brilliant we've seen more TV coverage and the coverage around the six nations and, and for this dedicated window this year, and also prem 15s, a little bit of, as you say, that whole no TMO, dodgy cameras, et cetera and the Autumn internationals. So, so some really good quality some and, and you did also mention didn't you those back stories and all the marketing that goes with that. So, uh, I think I know the answer to the question anyway, but are the broadcasters doing enough? And, and if not, what would you like to see change? And what part can you, there's loads of questions there? What part can you play? I guess we're coming back to this male ally role clearly you do have a voice in that space too.
Ugo Monye:
What I’ve learned in my job, it's often not what, you know, what you can say. <laugh> What you're willing to say that could get you in trouble, but at some…
Sue Anstiss:
Don't wanna get you in trouble. We just wanna create change don't we?
Ugo Monye:
But I'm also at a point where yeah, I can say things and I'm, I'm also, I am bothered, but not massively bothered as well. Like last year I massively campaigned to get more Allianz premiership 15s rugby on BT sport. I loved it. I thought we had a sense of duty to do it. I kind of hate these isolated incidents where, so we ran the premiership 15s final last year. It was brilliant. It was absolutely brilliant. You know, Harlequins won it. It was great. The story of Shauna Brown, her interview afterwards, I was in the studio, choked up, love Shauna. It was brilliant. And I think Emily Scout was involved in it. You know, we have production of meetings in the week and we said, you know when we come on air to lots of our views, this might be the first time they see it, but there'll be lots of people who flick on the TV and you know, this could be the norm.
We said, you know, and I think there was a point where we were gonna say, ‘it's great to have the Premiership 15s’ and Emily just said for lots of people, what if they turn on on, and we don't say anything. And they just think this is the norm, don't say anything. And I love that insight. And she was absolutely spot on. So we didn’t make a song and dance about it, but actually I wasn't comfortable with making a song and dance of it because we picked the ball up at the end of the season, having given no coverage and so what we’re to pat ourselves on the back that, Hey, look at us, we’re so great, for one game where I felt sorry for people like Ashley Wilmott, and other reporters and presenters, Eleanor Roper, who traveled up and down the country all season to cover it. And then weren't invited to the big dance.
Ugo Monye:
So I mean, that, that's kind of how I felt on the day, but it was great. It was a fantastic celebration. I wanted to do more. It's a bit like we get to international women's day you go into a gallery and it'll be an all female gallery. Every single person behind a camera is a female reporter, presenter, pundits, all female, and it’s either a stunt or it's something meaningful because where did they go the following week? They clearly put a good enough output. We celebrated all of it. So what happened if I got invited onto TV once a year, during black history month and said, Hey, can you come and talk about the, this? Yeah. Okay, cool. Oh, sorry. But you're kind of only relevant to us during, in October.
Ugo Monye:
Um, yeah, cause the rest of the year, we just fall back into our normal routine of things. Like I wouldn't, I just, I wouldn't go. I just, I just wouldn't do it. And I, so I do think we need to do more. Uh, I have paying for more, but there's, I guess at this stage, I'm not in a decision making role where I get to sign off a check. And there's a lot brighter people than me that have to balance the books but at some point someone's got to take a punt because I look at the men's league and every premiership club’s on average losing about 5 million pound a year, that doesn't seem like a viable business, but every single year you pump in another 5 million pound, which you will lose . The women's game is one of the fastest growing sports in the world.
Ugo Monye:
I'm hoping to be a part of the women's six nations going on. I was a part of it last year and it's a big part of why I wanted to work with the BBC because it felt attractive to me to work on the men's six nations as well as women's six nations.
Sue Anstiss:
I just want to chat you a little bit about that dilemma of the male sports broadcaster, which you slightly alluded to there. So obviously we want those high profile pundits and present to report women's sport. cause you bring huge credibility and you know, you like to attract those other male fans who say, or if Ugo’s reporting on it, it must be worth watching. But clearly I know you are concerned that when you then work on those games you take or you potentially take work away from those female broadcasters that you've said traveling up and down the country. So how do you balance and manage that in your approach?
Ugo Monye:
I struggled with it, struggled with it. There was various opportunities for me to work in a number of different roles actually last year and I wasn't comfortable doing some of them cause I just didn't think it was fair. There feels like an immense pressure for me, a far greater pressure for me when I work on the women's game. More so than the men's game. I remember it it's weird. I remember it last six nations. I think I did England against Italy at the Stoop and I called, Ellie Kildunne Ellie Kildoone. Slaughtered for it. Slaughtered for it. Look at him. He doesn't even know how to pronounce the eight player's name. I make those mistakes every single week in the men's game. I just do. Yeah, I just do.
It's not, you know, it's just, cause there's no way any human on the planet can speak for 80 minutes live and not make mistakes. Whether it's getting players names, wrong positions, wrong, whatever it is you just do, and I felt nervous when you know the match kicked off. You know, you question yourself, do I have enough depth of knowledge, which I think I do. In fact, I know I do. And already I'm doubting myself cause I follow the game or speak to, I speak to athletes and more so than anything, cause I'm a professional. If I pick up the mic. Yeah. Like I need to know what I'm talking about. But the level of scrutiny on me as a man working in the women's game and actually that whole week I felt it from people that was working on the production, in fact, um, like, oh look at him.
Like, and I, I, I just got spoken at the whole week, um, because I was stepping into someone else's world. But I guess people are adjusting. I, and I absolutely get where it's come from. Um, because there might be a, a feeling that where have you been? What have you, have you been doing? We've been doing this for ages. That's just that kind of biting point whilst it's still fairly new and people all are acclimatizing to men working on the women's game, women working on the men's game. But you look at tennis, If Navratilova over is commentating on the men's final. No one says a thing. Yeah or Claire Balding is presenting or Gabby Logan or Sue Barker or, oh no, one's saying, oh, by the way, it's D-jock -Ovic I mean like nothing said, because there's a history in that sport where it's okay for men to work on the women's game and women's work and the men's game are not there yet, but this is all I guess, pretty we're in its infancy of all of it.
Sue Anstiss:
Yeah. It's all quite raw. Isn't it. But, but I guess there is also that part that it's important to have you on board. That's the right part is we do want more men on board that bring that reputation and profile of thing too. So it's not a, there's no right or wrong is it? It's just working through it together. Isn't and obviously being an ally for others in sport, whether that's as you are male ally for women and girls, but also supporting LGBTQ and anti-racism, disability sport, it can sometimes be I find a bit of a scary place to be. And I know in the past I've been concerned. I might say the wrong thing or use the wrong language. That could cause offense when actually I'm trying to be more in inclusive. And I know in the past, like there's, I've had to discreetly message. If I haven't had to some journalists that have referred to women as the ladies and the girls and just suggest they might try and use the term women. And because it can be a little bit patronizing, almost belittling to those sports women, even though I know in reality, they're just trying to be polite, especially the older broadcasters and journalists. So you've talked about that remembering names and so on, but have you struggled at all? Do you struggle with finding the right language *hundred percent* talking about women's sport?
Ugo Monye:
I didn't know whether to call, the Red Roses have they've been branded the Red Roses or call them England women. And in fact, because England Rugby will always refer to 'em as Red Roses. They often refer to themselves as Red Roses. So I continuously did refer to 'em as Red Roses, but in the eyes of lots of people, that was a mistake. Ugo, don't be afraid to call them women. And I'm like, flipping heck if I called them women, well, you know, they’re called Red Roses. I'm just like that. It's a minefield, but it's fine cause you just put yourself out there. But I do think people need to be a bit more accepted and you know, the things which you speak about in terms of chatting to journalists and whatnot, I'd I commend you for it. And I, and I hope you continue to do it because with good people that you know, you know it comes from a good place.
Ugo Monye:
I think the fear of making mistakes and I think inhibits conversation, which inhibits change. And actually then I guess longer term inhibits people from doing and saying the right things. I make mistakes all the time. Do you want to correct someone or lambast someone to put them off from ever showing a level of support? Or is it to correct them so that they can be better next time? Every week I work on TV, the one thing I crave is feedback. I want my bosses to tell me, Ugo, you did X, Y, and Z ok, I wish you could do X, Y, and Z better. That's all I wanna know. So that I'm forever improving if you are having a conversation with me about terminologies in women's sport, I would love that. And I'd want that handled in the same position if there was a conversation about racism where I know that I'd position myself to be able to speak to you in a respectful, polite manner for all the right reasons.
Sue Anstiss:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think you are, that's just such a key point, isn't it? It's that the approach to which we are coming, ultimately we're all after the, the same goal to improve things, but it is a way in which we talk to people and listen too. We briefly alluded to football professional football earlier. Uh, but I, I feel it was a big issue around professional footballers men and there's many that's many issues we, we could go into, but in terms of supporting and being male allies for females within female football, that's definitely something I've witnessed a lack of across the recent years. It's a little bit the same in rugby too, I would say. So <affirmative> your thoughts really on professional male rugby players and whether they could do more, to be more vocal to support the female players in their, um, teams within their clubs.
Ugo Monye:
Yeah. I, I, I guess with lots of it, if you're not quite sure, then you need someone to set an example. So if I was at the club that I, I used to play for Harlequins, if the Harlequins men's team aren't celebrating their women on social media, putting up team sheets, time tables, this is where you can watch them. And that's the organisation. How do I expect a player's behavior to be able to trump the organisations? Like someone has to lead the way and I'd expect every club and some clubs are better than others. I think Bristol Bears do a really good job of it actually which I often see cause I don't follow every apprenticeship team's accounts.
I expect the organizations and the teams to really lead away, especially when almost every team in the Gallagher premiership has a female team support them. You want them to grow, you know, it's good for your team, for your brand, for your community, for the growth of rugby in your region, do it, I'd expect the teams to take the lead on it and encourage the players to, lean on it. Because in most cases, the men and women train at the same facility. So there is this crossover of people meeting, getting to know one another and understanding what's going on. I'd be disappointed if at Harlequins, for example, where they're both champions that they're both not supporting one another. I often see the women talk about great results and great last minute moments and congratulations and being selected for England. But I probably don't well, not probably, I don't see it the other way. <laugh>, you know, the men's sixth nation kicks off and they'll talk about that and if England win, they'll celebrate it, but why aren't the men doing it? Why I don't, I, I dunno the answers to those, to that question.
Sue Anstiss:
Yeah. I've seen some research to suggest men kinda worry that they may get some kind of backlash or be seen as weak or similar to women by advocating for them. That kind of macho piece of, uh, and I've definitely seen that around on the football side of actually I don't wanna be, you know how some men view women, if I then advocate and support what them I'm kind of seen in that way too. So I guess what would you say in terms of your role to change those perceptions and to if a young male player came to you to ask for advice as to how he could be a male ally and especially on social media, sharing those clips and celebrating and you know, what advice would you give there?
Ugo Monye:
Well, firstly, the statement or comment of a man being weak for support in the women's game or women are weaker than men. Like, you know, I've gotta be careful with, I, I'm not perfect. I'm not trying to sound self-righteous, but that, that mindset is, is, um, yeah, that I I'm uneasy with it, but it's, it's um, “fact” inverted commerce in so many people's minds. Um, yeah, I, I, I do start with that. Um, but that, that, that is just one of the topics in this gender imbalance that needs to be spoken about <laugh> it's kinda wild, but if a young player … first of all, I'd encourage 'em to go and watch a go, cause some of the ignorant comments you see online are ‘women's rugby is X’ derogatory. It would just be a derogatory term. Have you ever seen it? I often think there's this misplaced opinion about the game, which is prejudged or predetermined based on nothing for someone @misogynist idiot1234, online who made that comment. If I asked him why he felt that he wouldn't be able to coherently answer it. Oh, well, did you see the drop balls? It's just like, it's just nonsense. Challenge yourself to understand why you think that is that based because you don't think women are as good as men is that what it is?
Ugo Monye:
Where does it come from? But uh, I guess more focused on what you're talking about with, with, with young players, I'd go out support your team. Your team is Harlequins like my team is Harlequins, go and support your team. If you can get down and encourage and support or do the things for others, which you would want to be done for you at any point in your career. And in fact, the more profile, the more responsibility you have to be able to do that, go support your team because the more you get to know people, the more invested you are emotionally and attached to them. The more willing you are to celebrate them online, like players that I know I have personal relationships with. I probably shout the loudest about, I know them. I care for them. If Marcus Smith kicks the winning goal against Scotland, I'll be thrilled for him. Cause I know him personally, I will celebrate him. So develop those relationships within your club, cross border, cross border of the genders and do that and actually block out the noise of prehistoric opinion about what you should do and how you should behave and how it might be perceived. Be bold in your conviction to actually just go out and just do it. What is the worst that could happen? You sending a tweet to Zoe Harrison and she slots over another conversion from a touchline to win another grand slam. That's brilliant for the game, go out and support it.
Sue Anstiss:
And, and finally it did feel like the end of 2021 was ridiculously busy for you as a busy time, but what's coming up other than being a fantastic male ally for women's sport. But what else is coming up in the future for Ugo Monye.
Ugo Monye:
I've got, I've got a few exciting projects. I think. I'm always looking to challenge myself. I remember actually going back to strictly that was me really stepping out my comfort zone. <laugh> dressed as Moana wearing a wig and in amongst a number of things and dancing in front of 10 plus million people. That was all very, very different for me. But I do remember going to the final and Rose and Giovanni won it and they had, what is an iconic dance now where the music just stops and I've got goosebump just thinking about it. And I watched it live and I broke down crying in the audience, just I couldn't stop crying. And all the other pros and celebrities were looking at me and I was just, just crying away <laugh> and I remember chatting to Otie off the back of it.
Ugo Monye:
And I said, I came into this to have a bit of fun, to get a bit better and to challenge myself, I didn't realise dance could affect me in this way. I didn't know. In September, I didn't know, but I'm sat here in flood tears. It really moved me. And I guess what I kind of took away from it is, is that it's important to challenge yourself and try new things cause you never know how it might connect to you and that's what I'm looking to do. I spoke to Rose after the final. I went into a dressing room and I guess going back to diversity, um, I've never spent so much time with someone who had a hearing impairment and I'd had quite a number of drinks at this point, but managed to kind of put together a sentence.
Ugo Monye:
And I just said to her over the last couple of years, everyone's had a greater or a heightened sense of social awareness and injustice. But the hardest thing to do is to say to someone or to get someone, to get how it feels for you. Like I won't fully know what it's like to be a woman in the same way a woman wouldn't fully know what it's like to be a black man. It's impossible. You can lean upon stories and chat to people, the rest of it. But what she did in that moment, she invited me into her world with no invitation. I didn’t even have to knock on the door. She took me into her world and I got it. I got it. And I just said like, thank you for that. And it was just amazing. And all of those things and experiences have come from something that I was deeply uncomfortable doing.
Ugo Monye:
And so almost going back to what I was saying about men wanting to step out and support the women's game. If that feels deeply uncomfortable, it might do, but it also might affect and impact you in a way, which you could never have experienced or expected and the impact, what it might have for the people you are trying to support is just beyond belief. And yeah, so I'm challenging myself, testing myself, spinning quite a number of plates, but in all of it, trying to have fun that's kind of what I've done for the last 20 years and seeing how long I can blag it for!
Sue Anstiss:
Huge thanks to Ugo for taking the time to join me on The Game Changers. I see all the work he's doing behind the scenes to drive the profile and investment in women's sport. And I hope that his involvement will encourage other male allies to get on board to.
If you enjoy this podcast, do you visit Fearlesswomen.co.uk where you can find out more about all of my incredible guests from this and the previous eight series.
You can also listen to all the podcasts on the website and find out about the Women's Sport Collective a free network for all women working in sport. You can sign up for Changing the Game, our free weekly newsletter, which highlights the developments in global women's sport. And there's more about my new book Game On, the unstoppable rise of women's sport, also available in all good bookshops and online.
Thanks again to Sport England for backing The Game Changers through the National Lottery and to Sam Walker, who does a great job as our executive producer, along with Rory Auskerry on sound production and my brilliant colleague at Fearless Women, Kate Hannon. Do come and say hello on social media where you'll find me on Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook @SueAnstiss. The Game Changers, fearless women in sport.