Shelley Kerr: Why listening is an under rated skill

Shelley Kerr (0s):

Well, it's going back a long time. My first memories of football were probably about the age of three or four. So I'm the youngest in a family of four. I've got two older brothers and an older sister, so I'm the youngest. And then really in my local community, I was born in a little village in West Lothian in Scotland, called Broxburn. And so I started kicking a ball about, my two brothers, liked football, and that's where it all started. And really, you know, when I reflect back and I look back, I just loved the game from an early age. And I kicked the football every day of my life from as early as, you know, three, four years old.

Shelley Kerr (40s):

And it really just escalated from there, but I have to be honest, like I'm in the role that I'm in now I look back and reflect and how difficult it was for girls that played team sport back then. And because, you know, we miss out, and the pathways that we have now, and, and there were so many barriers but in saying that I think it shaped me into the person I am today because there was so many barriers and so many challenges, but my passion for football really developed at an early age.

Sue Anstiss (1m 13s):

What was it like at school? So did you play at school?

Shelley Kerr (1m 16s):

Yeah, I played Park Head Primary school, which is a primary school in West Calder. And then as I say, I kick the ball around every day, whether it was a in my local community or in the school playground. And thankfully my art teacher sporting me playing with the boys in the playground and I was the only girl that was playing. And then I think it was about primary five, so that 10 years old. And then he invited me to go for a trial for the school team. And it was just the best thing ever I have to be honest, because at that time I didn't think girls could play in football teams. So he invited me to try out for a trial and I was successful.

Shelley Kerr (1m 57s):

And I played them my primary team, four primary five, six, and seven. And I just loved it. Every, every game that we played, you know, I would be the sleepless nights because it was so looking forward and so excited to play with a team. So I've got a lot to thank my art teacher for at school Mr Wilkinson because he really sparked me on to, to keep motivated and keep playing,

Sue Anstiss (2m 21s):

But that didn't continue on into senior school. I hear. So what happened as you progressed through?

Shelley Kerr (2m 27s):

I mean, I played for the two or three years at primary school. And then when I went to secondary school, they wouldn't allow me to play with the boys. So they stopped you from playing with the boys that the rules thankfully are different now, where you can play up in Scotland anyway, it's up to 15, you can play in boys football. So that's really good. But when I was young, you couldn't. So I was asked to go on trial for our local team, my local team Polbeth United and East Calder Colts, but I wasn't allowed to play. So it was tough. I found myself as a 12, 13 year old and not being able to play a game that I loved. The one good thing was my parents wrote a letter to the PE staff.

Shelley Kerr (3m 9s):

And then at that time we had dancing classes. The girls have dancing classes when the boys went off to play football. So my PE teachers were brilliant. And then they allowed me to go and play and train the boys at PE. I just wasn't able to play in the team. So it was a little substitute, but it was tough. And then what I did do was I went and played women's football at 13 years old. That just wouldn't happen now, but that's what I had to do. So I joined the most local club to me at the time was a club called Edinburgh Dynamo. I went and played there at 13, so it was playing against women twice my age. And after to be honest, that I spent the first two years, I was a sub because I'm so small but never put me off.

Shelley Kerr (3m 57s):

I just want you to learn. And I felt that I would always get an opportunity, but I was very patient. And that's why now as a coach, when you know that sometimes players will see, you know, how can I get a game? And I'll see, well, I've been there two years, you know? So having that experience, you know, the good, bad and indifferent, I think helps you as a coach to understand and get a broader understand about what players come up against. No, but that was kinda my pathway, you know, so it was really, really tough at the early stages of my career.

Sue Anstiss (4m 27s):

And did you not consider going to play other sports when you were sat on that bench and carrying the bags for those couple of years? did you look at other sports?

Shelley Kerr (4m 36s):

I did. I played cross country. I liked athletics and I played for my school hockey team. So it was kind of a substitute for football because similar type rules, you know, and the only difference was you were hitting a ball with a hockey stick as opposed to kicking a football around. So I was captain of the school hockey team and I liked it, but it wasn't football. You know, I played a bit of volleyball and badminton did all sports, but nothing compares to the football in my view anyway.

Sue Anstiss (5m 10s):

And who inspired you at the time? Was there anyone you saw in terms of role models?

Shelley Kerr (5m 15s):

Do you know? That's a difficulty I think that sport had then, and certainly female sport, it wasn't visible, not like it is now. And I still think we've got a lot of work to do in terms of the visibility, female role models and female sport, now, but back then, increase that, you know, by a thousand times. I watched the athletics, you know, I looked at all the kind of female athletes. Tennis was probably the only visible sport. You know, you had Martina Navratilova, Chris Everett, at the time you had Billy Jean King. So, and I remembered even enough in athletics Zola Budd, but you know, it was very difficult to have role models.

Shelley Kerr (6m 2s):

There were mostly male because I liked football so Kenny Dalglish was obviously the most capped male, Scottish player. I really liked him as a footballer, but female role models it was, it tended to be from other sports. In Scotland I had two really good mentors who were senior players in the team I played with Margaret Wilson and Fiona Windchaser. I really looked up to them because they were senior players and they took me under their wing and they were fantastic. And they're still really good friends and mentors. And one of your previous guests on the podcast, Rose Reilly was a real, you know, hero of mine as well growing up. So, you know, it's one thing in my job now that I'm really proud that we have a group of players that are role models for the up and coming players coming through. Whereas when I was younger, I don't really have that as much.

Sue Anstiss (6m 53s):

Absolutely. And you obviously had a fantastic career as a player and was spotted by those people through school and then through the team. But when did you realise that you had some great potential to progress? Do you think, do the moment, was there a moment in time?

Shelley Kerr (7m 7s):

I think I've always, you know, personally and professionally, I've always been brought up with the values that you need to work hard and, you know, you can have a talent and many people do have a talent, but I think work ethic is so important and, you know, being disciplined and organized all those traits and characteristics that are important. I think that I was determined. I think, so take park talent for a moment. I was always determined to succeed and, you know, I was the type of person and I still am, and maybe this isn't the right way of doing things. But when someone says to you, you know, that will be tough or that will be a challenge for you, or you can't do that. It's almost like, okay, well, I'm going to try and do it.

Shelley Kerr (7m 50s):

But I guess I developed the core skills of football. And because I was the only female and I played with boys, I had got accepted with a group of boys that I played with. So that was a big confidence booster for me. I mean latterly, I was always in my village, people would always say that's the girl that plays football. So it was good for my confidence. And I think I did have the basic core skills. And then that just really escalated. Then I think just the combination of a little bit of talent with hard work. I think that that said I would never, you know, I would never cannot claim to be the most talented player.

Shelley Kerr (8m 30s):

Maybe that's my humble background. I don't know. But certainly what I did do is work very, very hard.

Sue Anstiss (8m 36s):

You joined Kilmarnock just as the Scottish women's premier league got started, I think in 2002, how did that time feel in Scotland for women's football?

Shelley Kerr (8m 47s):

Yeah. I mean, I played with a club before that, a couple of clubs before that. And, but I think when I moved to Kilmarnock, I think at the time the UEFA women's champion, wasn't the champions league then, but the UEFA for our championship, I think either 2001 or 2002 it started. So it was starting to get more profile. You know, football was evolving, not just in Scotland, but you know, elsewhere and Kilmarnock were the team that were the most successful Ayre United, had previously then Kilmarnock. And it was the coach at the time Jim Chapman. He had been in a professional men's game and he was trying to build a successful team. And he came to me, I was back in the international set up at this time.

Shelley Kerr (9m 30s):

And he said that I'd always remember having a conversation. And as a coach, it was music to my ears. He said, I want to develop you as a player. I think I can develop you further as a player. And I thought that for me at my time in my career was what I needed. A coach that was going to invest his time to try and meet me develop further. Cause I think even now, you know, players myself as a coach, as much as you have a skillset and qualifications, I never think you're the finished article. So for the coach to really invest his time and say I'm going to mmake you a better player, I thought, great. You know, that's for me. So it was a great time and I really enjoyed my time working with Jim. He was a fantastic coach and learnt heaps from him and not just as a player, but actually he was instrumental in getting me into coaching as well.

Sue Anstiss (10m 19s):

Excellent. I'll come on to that in a moment. And then you came down to play at Doncaster in 2005, I believe, was that a big decision to come down and come down, to come and play in England with your friends and family?

Shelley Kerr (10m 33s):

It was because I was in my thirties at the time. I probably thought at that time, you know, my daughter was younger then I probably thought that my time as a player was over because it wasn't a big stage then Doncaster Rover Bells weren’t a big team at the time. And they were facing a bit of a transition. I think when I went down they were near the bottom of the league, so I was tasked one of the players that was brought in to say look, you know, we want to try and maintain the status and be in the top division in England. And then I don't know, have to think twice, to be honest with you, I was playing at a national football level. I felt it would be a massive challenge. And when I got the phone call, I thought this is right for me.

Shelley Kerr (11m 16s):

And I have to say I had three seasons, down in England playing against some of the best players in Europe, not just in England, but in Europe. And it was fantastic. I loved my time there and I think the first season, I only signed for six games. It was the last six games of the season. And if my memory serves me, correct, I think we had to win two games to avoid relegation. So at the time the chairman and the manager said, look, come down, let's see at the end of the season where things are. And thankfully for me, we stayed up, I played a small part in that and I got offered a contract for the following season. So, you know, I absolutely loved my time at Doncaster to have fond memories there. The staff were brilliant. The club was fantastic. So it was good.

Sue Anstiss (12m 3s):

And looking back on, your international career, can you think back to the time you got your first cap and what was that experience like for you as a young player?

Shelley Kerr (12m 12s):

Well, in comparison to, you know, when I bring a player in now it's like night and day, I think I had to pay 50 pounds to play. It wasn’t to play, but it was to stay in the hotel and I can remember that it, we actually played England. We lost it three nil, Hope Powell played that day, a fantastic central midfield as well a real talent. And I came on and it was at Stark's Park Raith Rovers. And as a second half, second half substitution, about the last 15 minutes, but we lost, three nil, so that was my first cap against England, way back in 1989.

Sue Anstiss (12m 52s):

You had quite a time out to have your daughter away from the game. Was that intended at the time, to have so long away from football?

Shelley Kerr (13m 1s):

No, I don't think it was intended to have so long out, but it was the right thing for me personally at the time. You know, I worked full-time and in a high volume production environment and for a Japanese company. So I worked in a factory for 17 years. So it kind of makes me chuckle now when people say ah you're lucky to be in the position you're in, but I think a lot of people forget your journey and your own personal journey and all the things that you try and develop within yourself. So, but I was combining full-time employment as well as obviously having my daughter. And I just felt it was right to devote time to my family and my career without football.

Shelley Kerr (13m 43s):

So I, it was funny how I got back involved, I never lost my passion for it, but I played in a charity game at my work. And it was at that moment, I realised how much I missed it. And I went back and the coach that I mentioned previously, Margaret Wilson, she was still coaching with a team, I phoned her and I said, look, I'm thinking about coming back to football. And she says, come on down and just train with the team, just now. So I did, I was overweight. I was unfit. I was unhealthy. And I must admit when I went to the first training session, I thought, Oh, I really need to make a decision here and to leave or really focus and give it my all.

Shelley Kerr (14m 29s):

And as I mentioned previously, I'm an all or nothing person. So I done that and I spent the next kind a year getting myself really fit and back playing consistently, and back playing well. And I got some interest from the national team coach of the team who was Vera Pauw and then I got invited to a Scotland training day and then, yeah, I never looked back after that. I got back in the national side after eight, nine years old, which was quite incredible. I like to think so when you look at it I got my first cap in 1989 and my second one, I think in 2001,

Sue Anstiss (15m 10s):

That's amazing isn't it. Amazing story for people to know that there is the opportunity to come back and get back in shape after that time away.

Shelley Kerr (15m 20s):

Yeah. I mean, I think it's always that for me, the doors should never be closed for anything. And you know, people go through different experiences in life and even players now, you know, sometimes it's not for them at that particular team for many different reasons, but I think the door should always be open and my situation can prove that it can be done with the right mindset and the right commitment and dedication.

Sue Anstiss (15m 47s):

And how many caps did you go on to have?

Shelley Kerr (15m 50s):

So I've got 59 in total it's something that I'm really proud of because I think my last cap, I was 39 when I got my last cup. So I played international football till I was 39, which is a massive achievement and something I have to say probably a lot of thanks goes to a lot of other people because I mean, you know, my family looked after my daughter and all the times, I was away that was really tough. I had to factor in that a lot of milestones I missed out on time with my daughter to put into my career. And I think, now there's so much more support for mums in football and for players, if they want to have a family and come back, there's so many support mechanisms now.

Shelley Kerr (16m 30s):

So, but at the time for me, it was tough and I've a lot to be thankful for a close network of friends and family in particular.

Sue Anstiss (16m 40s):

That's good to hear, isn't it? Yeah. And so important it’s good to hear that it's changing now for the women that want to have families and keep playing in the future. You captained your clubs as well as your country. What do you feel makes a good captain?

Shelley Kerr (16m 54s):

I think communication skills, you know, leadership qualities. I think having the mindset that is more about the team than it is about you as an individual. And you're probably that buffer person from the manager and the coaching staff and the support staff to the team and from an early age about 18 or 19, I knew I wanted to be a coach. So some of my teammates would probably tell you that when I was playing at that, even at that young age, I was directing the traffic on the pitch. but I always say I might may not always have had the best, have always had the best games, but I could contribute in other ways with my communication skills.

Shelley Kerr (17m 36s):

But I do think it's honestly, it's trying to bond the team together, but, and I think that's done by your communication skills and your people skills and you know what I think all the best captains, you know, have those attributes. And I think it's so important to be like that, to get the best out of your team. And it's almost like you are a second manager or a second coach.

Sue Anstiss (18m 1s):

You mentioned an early love of coaching or desire for coaching, but you didn't see many female coaches at that top level. So looking back, what do you think inspired you to feel you could coach?

Shelley Kerr (18m 13s):

I think one of the skills that I did have as a player was my game awareness, I always thought I had good football intelligence. And that coupled with the fact that I liked to help people, because when you're a leader and you're a coach and a manager, it's your passion to help others. And it's the same as being a teacher at school or a lecturer at college or university. But I did love, and I was really interested in all the intricacies in football, the tactical element of the game. I think I'm open to learn and even now I'm still open to learn. And so I think all of those things bought another, another part was the fact that there wasn't so many female coaches and it was that way that I'm going to do something that maybe a lot of other people haven't done, not for that reason, but just because you know, my passion for football, my passion, to help people, you know, my passion to develop tactically and help others.

Sue Anstiss (19m 11s):

There is a pattern emerging here, give you a challenge and you'll go and overcome it. Can you tell us a little bit about your time at Arsenal again, was that quite a big decision to move down to London with your daughter as well?

Shelley Kerr (19m 27s):

It was, I think in particular, at the time I had a role with the Scottish FA so I was the under 19 national coach and I was responsible for the girls' and women's performance pathway. And I'd been in that role for, you know, five years. And I felt that for me to become better as a coach and a manager, I needed to work at the high end of club football. I had had previous player coach roles at clubs, but I feel it was the right thing for my development at that time, excuse me. And I think, you know, such a massive club Arsenal women's, you know, synonymous for women's football, not just the UK, but in Europe.

Shelley Kerr (20m 13s):

So I felt that it was the right team for me, and I didn't have to think about it very long. It was a great opportunity for me as an individual, the challenging part was uprooting my family and in particular my daughter, because she was going into fifth year at school. And in one sense, I want her to stay and finish her highers in Scotland, but she was adamant she wanted us to come with her Mum and she wanted to come and expedience London. She wanted to, and, you know, in reflection, I think it was the best thing for us, both because I learnt heaps about management, I learnt heaps about myself as an individual and my daughter experienced a different culture, a different environment.

Shelley Kerr (20m 53s):

So it was good for us, both. And I really enjoyed my time at Arsenal. There were many challenges that there is in all jobs and it's something that I'll learnt heaps from. I went from an environment where it was kind of amateur. Then I went at that time, Arsenal were semi-pro, the league hadn't went fully professional as yet. So there was that transitional time. And before WSL started down in England. So there was very many challenges, but it was, it's something that I'm ever grateful for because it gave me an opportunity to, again, get a bit of success.

Shelley Kerr (21m 33s):

You know, we won their FA cup back to back, we won the Community Shield Cup, the semifinals of Champions League, but also had to manage a different, different network of people, you know, players that were getting paid, players that we were trying to get training two or three times a week to full time. So it was really challenging, but very rewarding I have to say.

Sue Anstiss (21m 55s):

And you've mentioned your love of learning and education. So that is that the point that you then went back to education to do your masters?

Shelley Kerr (22m 4s):

It's something that I've always came from a practical background. I left school with no formal qualifications, left school, went right into work in a factory for 17 years. And I eventually left the factor as a manager, there was something that's always alluded me. And that was the academic side. And I think in sport is so important. So I'd went through all the coaching licenses, right up to the pro license, but always felt that in the high end of sport, you need to have a correlation between the practical and the theoretical side. So it was a conscious decision of mine to come back home from Arsenal. And at that point it was very clear.

Shelley Kerr (22m 45s):

I gonna spend the next couple of years go and develop myself academically because I've always felt that you need to always be proactive in your career. So even though I'm a head coach, now and a manager, what am I going to I need to think about after that, what am I going to do after it? So again, it's been proactive in your own development. So I had a, a few people, I knew up at Sterling University and then I inquired about a master's in sports management, I felt it was a course, that would really challenge me the most, so you learn about finance, about principles and sports management, research methodology, and so on event management, marketing.

Shelley Kerr (23m 27s):

So the modules in the course were just really exciting for me. And so I got a conditional offer based on my life experience. And I have to say, that has probably been out of football, the most challenging thing I've ever had to do. Going in, as my daughter put it, a very mature student and learn how to write academically and go through assessments, go through exams. At that time in my career and my life, It was, it was such a challenge and it was great, you know, being in a classroom environment again, learning and being open to learn and challenging the lecturers, challenging, you know, other students I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Shelley Kerr (24m 13s):

I have to be honest, but not just because at the end of it, you have this, the accolade of getting a master's degree it’s because I've been able to use the learnings from all the modules and put them into practice, in my current role. And you know, hopefully in the future that I can do, you know, similar in other environments. So it was, it was, again, a great experience and a great great learning opportunity for me

Sue Anstiss (24m 38s):

And something you'd recommend to other women or men and women in those coaching roles, do you think?

Shelley Kerr (24m 43s):

Men and women, you know, you, you go through the coaching education pathway. And again, when I think of my pathway, I didn't just do the adult pathway, I started off at childrens and worked my way through all the licenses. So the license level at children's, I've done the same with youth, and I've done the same with adults because you have to experience the life longevity of a player. So for me, that was really important, but I would think now that the market is saturated with very good coaches that are all qualified to, you know, up to pro license, C license. So how can you set yourself apart as with all your experiences? So I would really recommend, you know, coaches now to actually go down a different route, whether it's doing leadership courses, whether it's doing business courses, because there is a real correlation, in my opinion, between business and other environments and sports, or I learned heaps definitely. And I would thoroughly recommend it, but especially though Stirling University,

Sue Anstiss (25m 44s):

I was going to say, because Judy Murray talks so positively about Stirling University, sort of put it on the map. You obviously had a fantastic experience there in terms of the setup and the teaching?

Shelley Kerr (25m 55s):

Yeah. I mean it prides itself on sporting excellence, although it has got academics it has sport and scholarships that you can get access too. And Judy Murray is obviously as a pioneer in terms of tennis and being a real icon in Scotland for sports, but not just in Scotland, but all around the world, actually, but they have the tennis centre and golf, they have swimming. So they have produced some real talented athletes through the scholarship program that they have. And I have to say another part of when I was based at Stirling, obviously you might touch on this, but I coached the men's team there. I think what the environment there was so good because it was sharing of best practice.

So I was a football coach. I would speak to the tennis coach, Scotland Athletics is there, swimming. So it was sharing the knowledge and best practice and whatever with coaches outside of my own sport. And it was just such a vibrant sporting environment. And I have to be honest, the position I'm in now, if that hadn't of came up, I would probably have still been at Stirling University, because I loved my time there. 

Sue Anstiss

And how did you come to get that role? And there was quite a commotion about it when you were appointed at the time.

Shelley Kerr (27m 13s):

Yeah. I mean, it was, it was quite random actually, because I had applied to do the master's degree and then I was doing a bit of scouting and I felt that, so I wasn't in full-time employment at that time,I’d chosen to, you know, park it, maybe do some consultancy work. I felt that I had a skill set that could offer various football services to various different clubs and so on. But I was doing a scouting role and randomly I was networking with people at the games. And someone says to me, Oh, you’re going to Sterling Uni I've heard that they are looking for coach for the men's team, with the scholar athletes and you know, they play in the Lowland League which is the fifth tier in Scottish football.

Shelley Kerr (28m 0s):

And then I think the are going to advertise the post. So I started to think about it and I thought, hmm, that is really interesting working with a real good crop of players because the criteria was that they had to have been in an Academy. So they had to have been playing professional football for them to get obviously selected to come in to the scholarship program. So I thought, Oh, well, I'll see what happens here. So anyway, I put my CV in I just felt that at the time, I didn't even think about it being a big thing. If I'm being honest, I just saw a job I thought that I was qualified to do it and thought I'll put my CV in.

Shelley Kerr (28m 41s):

And if I can get an interview and get an opportunity to speak to people about what I can offer the position and the role, then I may have a little chance. So thankfully I was invited to an interview. And then you know it was a real surreal feeling because on the day of the interview, I was driving home and I got a call when I was driving home and I pulled over and it was one of the interview panel. And basically, how do you think it went? And I said, yeah, well, OK, you know, you never get the perfect interview. I don't think there's always things that you can do better, but they said we'd like to offer you the job.

Shelley Kerr (29m 22s):

And it was within 24 hours. So I asked the question, when can you start? And I said, well, now and then Rayleigh Gunter, who's still a mentor to this day, and their high-performance sports manager. And he says, well, can you come in tomorrow morning and meet the players? So I was in the following morning at seven o'clock to meet the players and I had literally no time to even think at all, my daughter knew my mum and dad, but I literally no time to tell the rest of family. And it was on an exclusive on BBC news and Scotland at six o'clock. And I'm getting a text message from my sister saying, so I couldn't even get time to tell my family.

Shelley Kerr (30m 7s):

And it had just went viral because of this appointment. I was a first woman and, and in one respect, I think it shouldn't have been like that because I was a person that, you know, regardless of gender had the skillset to do the job, the interview panel had faith in me that I could do the job. So why was it a big story? But it was, and, you know, in one sense it was great for the university because they had such a big profile. You know, there was such hype surrounding the appointment, but it was, it was absolutely unbelievable. And, you know, I remember the following day, once it had calmed down a little bit, the Director of Sport, who sadly is no longer with us, the late Pete Bilsborough, invited me into his office and I always remember this.

Shelley Kerr (30m 56s):

He said, chill, the university here in Stirling is all about developing people. And you're not any different, you've been employed because we think that you've got the skillset to do the job. And he said, we will do everything we can to support you and your role don’t worry so much about the outcome and the results think about the process and the results and the outcome will come. And I always remembered it because it gave me so much confidence going into that role as the first female. It was almost something that I didn't even think about after that. I just thought I've got an organization and an education establishment here that is going to support me regardless.

Shelley Kerr (31m 39s):

And that's given me because sometimes we all knew what the average tenure in football management, you know, it was fairly short. It's short. The short termism involved in football manager management is terrible, but I felt really supported from the day when I got that job. And, you know, it really, really helped me. You start to kind of develop a philosophy within the team environment and try and obviously develop the players in the program. So again, really good people around you is so important.

Sue Anstiss (32m 11s):

Do you think women taking similar roles today would experience the same that you did then? Do you think things have changed at all?

Shelley Kerr (32m 19s):

I think it's breaking the barriers, isn't it. I think there's very few women across the world globally that have those positions. And I have to say, I've been asked this question a lot, it has to be what that individual wants, not all female coaches, football coaches want to work in the men's game. So it has to be what you as an individual and what you aspire to be and what you aspire to do. But if my experience, you know, paves a way for others then fantastic, because it can be done. I actually think there's a lot of really, really good coaches out there. Both, you know, player individual management techniques are good.

Shelley Kerr (32m 60s):

Tactical knowledge is good. And I, and I think we could do it, you know, I definitely do, but it would need a brave chairman, a brave board of directors to make such an appointments at the high-end of male football.

Sue Anstiss (33m 12s):

And as you say, it's women wanting it too, isn't it, to put themselves in that spotlight at the moment?

Shelley Kerr (33m 18s):

Cause, I mean, I know even I worked in the fifth tier and you know, there was such a hype around it that, and it was almost in the back of my mind. I'm thinking if you don't get results, then people are going to say I told you. So I told you it wouldn't work. So that's why it was really important for me to hit the ground running. Thankfully the team at the time I took over, I think they would almost bottom of the league so the only way was up. So it was, it was quite a good impact, but, but, you know, joking aside we drew our first game. I think we won the second game and we went on our little bit of a run. So that got buy in from other coach, from others around me, from the players, you know, from, you know, people externally.

Shelley Kerr (34m 4s):

And I think that was so important. Had it went the other way, you know, when you don't get the results early on then who knows what would have happened. But certainly my three years, at Stirling the team to feel proud about, even now some of the cohort, the players that came through in my last year I've known, went into professional football, which I'm really proud. I'm really proud of it though.

Sue Anstiss (34m 29s):

That's fantastic to hear isn't it. And then you were approached for the national coach role, can you tell us a little bit about, that approach and that the position that you took there?

Shelley Kerr (34m 40s):

Yeah, I mean, as I said earlier, I was really happy in my role at Stirling. I just finished my degree I'd graduated. It was amazing feeling the team were doing well. I was developing the program. We started, an under twenties team and I was doing a bit of lecturing as well. So I was really enjoying it and, you know, the diverse situation of the job. And then obviously there was an announcement made that, you know, my predecessor, Anna Signeul, who was my coach as well. And you know, another mentor of mine was leaving and, you know, I got a phone call to say would you be interested? There will be a process. And it was a recruitment company that got in touch and, you know, I had to go through a rigorous process and I felt that, you know, it's your country, it's your national team, you know?

Shelley Kerr (35m 30s):

Yeah. I had to go through a process that I was interviewed for the position and, you know, tried to elaborate what I could bring to the role with all my experience season, you know, I was successful and, and getting that position and yeah, it's been an amazing journey again. And I think in what I would say is that it's, it's brilliant being a coach and a leader and a manager, but there's also a lot of challenges with the position. And, you know, you're responsible for the nation. It's different from a club experience, club football you get passionate supporters that are supporting that club. But when you are responsible for a national team, you've got the full weight of the country on your shoulders.

Shelley Kerr (36m 18s):

And you know, that comes with many challenges. But again, I'm not someone that will shirk away from a challenge. And you've got to, as a manager, always be ready to face the good, the bad, and then indifferent because you don't, nobody in life gets things right all the time. So it's been joyous. It's been, we've had some good times, we've had some great times and we've had some times, you know, together that things haven't gone well for us, but that is being a manager that is being a human being. And I wouldn't have it any other way.

Sue Anstiss (36m 52s):

And you must be incredibly proud of what you've achieved, to qualify for the world cup. Rose Reilly said that you gave her, her proudest moment in football when you quantifed were her words. So how does that feel when you look back at that time with those achievements?

Shelley Kerr (37m 8s):

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot was made when we qualified for the World Cup, but I think going through the campaign, we were the second seeds in pot two and that group and really on paper, you know, we probably at best should have reached the playoff. So we all wanted to achieve. Then I think, you know, a lot of people underestimate in terms of our achievement of getting to the World Cup. Again, it's not really, for me, it's not about the accuracy as that little girl, if we rewind, you know, 40 minutes of this interview and how important it was and how passionate I was as a three, four or five-year-old that there was no infrastructure in place for women's and girl's football in Scotland.

Shelley Kerr (37m 56s):

And before we went to the world cup, there was 18 and a half thousand at Hampden Park, our national stadium, to watch the national women's team before they got to the World Cup. For me that supersedes anything and you know, a lot of people would, you know, when results don't go your way you get criticized, every manager will. But for me, I always look at the bigger picture in terms of their achievement of putting girls and women's football in Scotland on the map. And now we've got from little boys to older mature gentleman talking about the Scottish women's national team.

Shelley Kerr (38m 37s):

And for me that's massive because I certainly never had that when I was a kid. So if I've played a small part in that, then you know, it will make me smile forever.

Sue Anstiss (38m 48s):

And you say, it's not about accolades, but obviously massive congratulations that you were awarded an MBE and you were able to go down and get it before COVID and lockdown, which is fantastic. So what did that mean, as much to you as, as the family as well?

Shelley Kerr (39m 3s):

Yeah, I mean, I think the award is an individual one, it's not really, because it's so many people that have been instrumental and helping me help football, because my award was for football services to football. And it's been a long, hard journey, but, you know, it was so special to see my mum at Buckingham Palace and my daughter as well. That was just the most amazing thing take everything else away you know, it's just such an amazing feeling and I'm sure many people that have done similar, it's all about other people, you know, and it was, it was such a special day just seeing my Mum's face.

Shelley Kerr (39m 48s):

It was, it was amazing. Absolutely amazing. But again, so many other people have, have been instrumental in that. And I don't really see it as my award. I see it for other people. I see it for the girls and the women's game.

Sue Anstiss (40m 4s):

I thought we'd just finished if we can with a little bit about coaching and again what do you see in terms of women coming into the sport in the future? What advice would you give to younger women that are looking to coach?

Shelley Kerr (40m 18s):

Be confident! I think confidence is everything. I say this all the time. Sometimes I do conferences and speak to businesses. And, and the first thing I see is like, look at the front row. So when you're a women and you walk in the room, go to the front, you know, make a stance, go to the front, make sure you're seen, make sure you're visible. And it's the same in coaching. If you have a passion for something, remember it's not going to be smooth, but challenge others the way that you would want to get challenged, be confident in your own ability. And I think we always talk about, you know, speaking out, but actually the best skill we can have is to listen.

Shelley Kerr (40m 57s):

I really do believe that you have, you know, ears here and you were born with ears to listen. You know, you know, whatever method you use communication is key. Be prepared to work hard, be prepared to face challenges. And I always think volunteer your services. You know, often we talk about there's not enough paid positions. My first coaching paid position was just recently, you know, a few years back. So you have to go through many different experiences I worked with a boys team under 11, even when I was at Spartan as a coach, it was unpaid position at Kilmarnock. So when I look at my journey, I call it my, my personal development plan.

Shelley Kerr (41m 42s):

So from that three year old all the way through, because everything shapes you in terms of your philosophy, as an individual personally and professionally. But I think lean on people mentors, have mentors, not just in sport, but outside sport, because they can sometimes give you that impartial viewpoint. So there's a whole host of things and that very, very kind of consistent one be open to learn. And you're never the finished article.