Rimla Akhtar: On overturning FIFA's hijab ban

Why did you start to play football in the first place?

So, I grew up in North London, in Edgware, and I was born in a home on a street where we were the first non-white family to move in, and I think I saw the impact of that from a very young age, you know not knowing really what people were saying, or what they wanted to get across to me, but certainly the sense of not belonging and not feeling welcome in the environment that we were in. 

So, I grew up with a sort of instability in that sense, although stability was provided by my family and two members of my family in particular were my brothers, my older brothers, and being the only girl, the youngest of three, it was just sort of the case of either I would join them or be left out, and my mother encouraged me to join them and that meant playing football, playing cricket or whatever other sport it was that they were playing, I just joined with them, and like I say my mother as a keen sports women herself encouraged that. 

So, that is really how I got into sport and I just loved everything. 

You say your mum was keen on sport, what was her background then?

So she back in Pakistan, where she is from, the city that she was in, well her family has got a very much army and sort of navy background, sorry army and RAF background in Pakistan, so the sense of being healthy and fit was always there, but her mother was a basketball player, not at a national level, but she played basketball, her father was a Hockey referee as well as a player, at the district level, and then so it has been in the blood I think for generations. 

She was sportsperson year after year at her school, and I remember going to Pakistan once actually during the summer holidays as South Asians tend to growing up, and we were there for about four weeks, and going into a particular room in my nans house, and all this stuff that was locked up in suitcases and I opened one of them up, and I found all these trophies, and I asked my nan who’s these were, and she said they are your mothers. 

So, I actually brought them back to London with us on that trip because I wanted to shine them, and sort of find a space to put them. So, she has been really into her sport from a very young age. 

And was she therefore encouraging of you, and as much as so as she was of your brothers playing sport?

Very much so, she I think to be honest she probably encouraged me more than my brothers in every sense, not just in the sporting sense. To be better, to be the best that I can be, she was sort of like the boys will do what they want to do, but I want to focus on you and you getting as far as your protentional can help you reach, and I am going to support that, and push you as much as possible. 

So, she has always been a driver along every aspect of my life, and my brothers have been extremely supportive of everything. I mean they are older brothers so they will take the mick out of me when they want to right? That is what older brothers do, but they are very, very supportive. 

Did you ever feel any frustrations in terms of the opportunities they had to play, because they went onto play football, at Barnet I believe? 

Yeah, they were scouted actually for Barnet, I think this was when Barnet were in, I think it was the second division, the old second division at the time I think it was. So, they were scouted for the academy, but yeah, I guess I didn’t really think of it back then because I was at school and I was really enjoying playing in my school teams, and so for me I was having fun. I was also quite studious, so I was finding that balance between studies and playing sports and for me, someone like me I didn’t really have any role models to say that someone like me could make a career in the sports field, it was only something that my brothers could potentially consider.

Even though to be honest, there weren’t, and there aren’t enough Asian role models in football, but they were scouted, my mum supported them as much as she could, but I guess those opportunities I didn’t really think about them at the time, but looking back at it, of course I would’ve loved to. 

I played county cricket, I played East of England Lacrosse, could have gotten further I believe if the opportunities were easier to access, and if there were more people that I could look to, and say yeah, I can do what she is doing, and I guess that is what I am trying to create now is that diversity of female role models, that any girl that is growing up can look up too, and say I can do what she is doing. 

And do you think things are different for young Pakistani girls in Britain today? So, growing up as you were in Edgware, do you think girls now would feel very differently about sport?

I think yes, one of the things that I always say is a lot of this depends, in my opinion, on the mother, and I feel that in my own life. So, I feel that, and actually when I was chairing at the Muslim Women in Sport Foundation, the women and girls that we worked with more often that not, we would find that those that understood and appreciated sport and had a  confidence when it came to sport, their mothers were into sport themselves they understood the benefits of sport for their children whether they are boys, or girls.

So, actually what we are seeing is a shift in attitude amongst mothers in my generation, and those coming after us towards sport and being fit and active, and healthy, and there are many individuals and organisations across the country that are helping to shift that attitude. I think that is then creating a space of it is great to be active, and it is important that you’re active. 

So, this Ramadan in 2020, our fasting month, my brother and I did an online campaign to get people from the Muslim community active, during Ramadan whilst they’re fasting, which is a tall order if you think about it! On top of that it is lockdown, on top of that it is really hard, but it was successful because people understand the importance of keeping fit and active, and even if they hadn’t done before, they had a community in which they could do it, and I think that is what’s really shifted the dial, it is the fact that the sports industry has learnt through individuals like myself and others across the country who are helping them understand, how do you work with these communities, how do you engage with them in a way that works for them. 

So, that has helped, but I think the barriers still lie in terms of the pathways to the elite level, I think there are many individuals we are seeing the come across sports media now, we are seeing more and more Muslim and Asian girls across sports media, we are starting to see a few more in the coaching space, but not so many able to make it up that pathway to the highest levels of actually being a performance athlete. 

That is something I think is partly due to that attitude of sport not being a career because we don’t have the role models there, the chicken and egg sort of situation, so can I really make a career of this? But mainly I think because the pathways aren’t inclusive enough, so the way that sports actually access their talents, and where they choose what pool of talent they go to, I think that is a massive issue that still needs to be dealt with, and therefore for me the elite performance pathway for me is still a massive issue. 

Absolutely, and I think I have felt that in the past when I have seen pictures of the Women world cup champions, whether it is cricket, or hockey or rugby, just from a visual perspective it just seems to be very much the same kind of women, same backgrounds coming through in the sports. 

Do you feel that is changing?

I certainly think that there are pockets of good efforts, and individuals who are in their own rights have just been awesome at getting themselves seen, and heard, and then included. So, I think of the likes of Dana Abdulkarim who was the first hijab wearing athlete to represent England, she played rounders for England and was fantastic to the extent where she then became Under 18’s coach I think it was, and re-wrote their entire coaching curriculum I believe. 

As well as pockets of individuals as I say across the coaching pathway etc, but we are not seeing a significant number I think that will really show that things are changing, I have gone across all sort of talent centres for different sports, across the UK, and I am still seeing the same people. A lot of the sports when it comes to the female side of things, are very white middle class, and that has to change, and that has to change in terms of where you are going to access the talent, and how easy you are making it for those girls actually come to sessions. 

So, I remember I played for Hert’s Cricket, when I was at school, because my school was in Hertfordshire and the issue for me was I live in North London, and I had to go all the way to the Northern edge of Hertfordshire, which was just too much for me and my mother consistently be doing on top of everything else, so how accessible are your pathways in that sense even. All these kinds of things still need to be looked at I think to a much greater degree, and that requires investment, more investment into the women’s sport space. 

I think the old sort of stereotypes, around are women for Asian, Black, Muslim, whatever identity group you want to look at, are those women able to be athletes, I think that question has been easily batted out, I think people have really got to get over that because it is just not true, and we can look internationally for that. If you look at the Indian Women’s Cricket team for example, there you go, in terms of how amazing they are, the Pakistani team is not far behind, we see all these Arab athletes that are there, African athletes that are there, and you know just starting to get involved that are new sports as well, whether it is black girls surfing, or whether is Arab girls in Parkour, or whatever it is, it is very clear to see the talent is out there, it is just certainly in the UK, how do we access that talent, and how wide are we really going, and how deep and far are we doing in terms of accessing talent? 

I am going to take you back to your time, obviously you did very well at school, you did you well at University, and you ended up working at PWC in the city? How was that at the time as an experience for a woman and a woman of colour at the time?

Yeah, it was a mixed experience in a sense that I loved working at PWC, I never felt that, I shouldn’t have to say this but I feel like I was lucky in that I didn’t have to experience any discrimination, I didn’t feel that my gender, or my ethnicity, or the fact that I where a hijab impacted in my ability to be seen, and my talent to be seen, and so I was promoted when I expected to be promoted, and you know my managers would work with me in a way that I expected them to, in a sense of really pushing me to keep improving, and improving and improving, which is what I love, what I love doing, I always love to develop and grow. So, I benefited from that environment, and the clients that I worked with were amazing as well. 

I would say that, the mixed piece is because I remember actually when I was at university I had a year out, I did a year out at Ernst and Young, and that was sort of my first exposure to life in the city as it were, and I remember a partner, a female partner, was asked to come and speak to the female graduates, because I joined with the graduates even though I wasn’t a graduate, I was there on a year out, you know she was asked to speak to us, and there were about five or six of us, about what her experience of getting into partner was like, and she was probably in her 50’s at this stage, and this was back in 2004 it would have been, and one thing that stick in my mind from what she said was, she said that she had to choose between becoming a partner, and having a family, and that broke my heart first of all, for her first and full most, but it didn’t set a good tone in terms of what we as women coming into that life in the city were then going to expect, and I guess things have changed massively since then, even in the time I was at PWC I saw things changing, in terms of women that were making it up the managerial ladder towards partner, and how PWC were looking to shift how they worked. I think they are a lot better now than they were even 15 years ago when I first started there. 

But, there is still so much more to done to make the assumptions that we make about life, and about how we optimise performance or optimise growth, or whatever growth means, we just need to look and check those assumptions to really think about, what does it really mean? And I think the fact that suddenly lockdown has been imposed on us, the fact that the Covid-19 situation is such that all of our assumptions are being challenged about what works, what is good, what are our values, why are we doing what we do, can we streamline, can we do things better, all of the those things are happening right now, and I think that’s only I hope we can use this as an opportunity to work towards a fairer better way of being, whether it is in the city, or whatever industry of life in general. 

Were you still playing sport when you were working there in the city?

Yeah, I was playing different sports at different levels. So, obviously I am sports crazy, so I am going to play everything and anything that I come across, I am always don’t knock it until you have tried it kind of thing, extremely competitive so probably if I am not good at something I will probably stop playing it knowing me. 

No, I have always enjoyed playing all sorts of sports, so always did that whilst I was at PWC, I actually delayed my induction to PWC because in 2005 we were going out to Iran to play in the Muslim Women’s Games, or the Women’s Islamic Games as they were then known, and so yeah sport did impact my life a little bit in that sense, and sort of fitting things around my work schedule, but other than that it was just playing for fun, and enjoying myself, and just enjoying what sport brings. 

You captained the British Muslim Women’s futsal team in 2005, what was that experience like to represent your country?

Oh goodness, it was just amazing. The first time we represented Britain was back in 2001, which was the first time Britain had been invited to these games, these games just for background they were essentially an Olympic style tournament, held in an all-female environment, so it sort of catered to the needs of absolutely every athlete, coach, participant in the tournament, indorsed by IOC, and held over in Iran, so it was just an amazing experience to put on a kit with the British flag, to be standing there with the national anthem going off, and just being really proud. 

Then in 2005, obviously being selected as captain was massive, but just stepping up into that role of being the leader, on and off the court as it were because it was a futsal court, obviously indoors, I actually got injured in the first match, I went over on my left ankle, as I was turning and I was out for the rest of the tournament. 

It was pretty awful on a personal note actually because I just didn’t get to play, and it was really difficult actually watching from the side lines, I now know what coaches go through, it is really difficult to watch from the side lines, and wanting to be there and supporting everyone on the court, but actually I learnt so much about how much you can lead from the side lines, and how important that is. 

Every experience I think is there for a reason, and it has given me, well certainly at the time it gave me a lot to learn and process. 

And, it was around that time that you became chair of the Muslim Women’s Sports Foundation, how did that come about?

So, it was actually when we came back from the games in 2005, so around sort of September/October, and just prior to the games we had got involved, myself and vice-captain Ayesha Abdeen, the two of us had got involved with supporting the Muslim Women Sport Foundation which is the organisation that was putting the team together. 

We got involved with just sort of helping and volunteering in the background, and I guess that was really that first exposure to the administration side of sport and what is takes to put a team together, and get a team out there, so we just felt as players we needed to give back as well because there were so many other volunteers that were doing things for us, that we wanted to do some more. 

So, when we came back from the games we continued that volunteering with them, and actually given all that experience I had of working at EY for a  year, then I had done a year of management at Imperial, and learnt so much through that process, that I felt that I could support them, the best way I could support them was to put together a strategy for the longer term, and so up until that point when I retuned form the games in 2005, it was very much an organisation that was purely focused on this British team, and whilst I was lovely be united with this group of sisters, having thought I was the only Muslim girl that was in football, or in sports, to suddenly come across all these girls that were also into it, it was an amazing feeling, yes, but there was a clearly this sense, and Ayesha and I shared this sense that more needed to be done, and we needed to build a foundation on which we could grow this group of Muslim women and girls that are in the sports space, and which ever way that wanted to be, whether that was a  player, elite pathway coach, referee, administrator, volunteer, fan, whatever it was we wanted to support that. 

So, that is where we came up with the strategy and it was just yeah I guess the guys that were in charge at the time were like this is great, how about you help deliver it, so yeah I took over as Chair Ayesha as vice-chair, and we just sort of ran with it, and thankfully through the enthusiasm and the dedication of everyone that supported us along the way, we were able to make is a successful initiative for us. 

Excellent, and how did your involvement with the Football Association begin? 

So, I obviously doing the work with the Muslim Women in Sport Foundation, in particularly with futsal we were in contact with Middlesex FA, our local county FA, and a Wonderful women there called Charlie Edwards who supported our Futsal team, and it was guess through her recommendation the FA when they were back in Soho Square, so quite a long time ago they were having their first ever sort of gathering for Women of ethnic minority communities with Kick it out, they had organised this day to bring women from ethnic minorities together who were in the game, and so the FA asked us to present our project as best practice, what we were doing at the foundation, and that is where it began really because I presented what we were doing, it began on a personal note, on a personal note that began my journey in terms of in the governance and leadership space of sport, but also from a foundation perspective the Muslim Women in Sport Foundation was able to access a large pot of funding thanks to that one presentation, because the people in the audience saw what we were doing and thought we have to fund you, it was really fantastic day for us. 

So, that was really where the journey began, I started to be asked to come and advise them on different groups, and in different situations, and that is where really fast forward to 2013, and the inclusion advisory board that was set up at the FA, and I went through the process and got selected for that and that is where is has come from really. 

And, when you became the first Muslim women on the FA council itself, how daunting was that at the time? Do you feel that you were ready to join the council? 

I think I didn’t think about the impact and the significance of that moment in  the sense that I’m the first Muslim or Asian woman on that council, there was a personal sense this is a little bit daunting because of everything I had heard about the council and the people on the council, I had heard that this was a space for white men in their 70’s and 80’s, and get sense of what it might look like or feel like based on I can say from my past experience as well growing up, and so in that sense a little bit daunting and you kind of fear for whether it’s a space that you can enter, but actually what ended up happening for me was, I did doubt initially because the processes that you get elected by your peers on the inclusion board to the council to represent them on the council, so I had to go through that process but I had to put myself forward, and really for me I doubted whether I was ready to go onto the council, not because of what I thought I would bring but because I was thinking about whether the council would be ready for me, if that makes sense? 

So, would I be included? Would they see me beyond this piece of cloth that I wear around my head? Would they see me beyond my age actually? All these kind of things, and it was one particular individual at the FA who is a friend, and I asked do you think I am ready, and she said yeah, why not, there was doubt in her mind at all, which then gave me the sense of yeah I can do this, so yeah there was a little bit of hesitation I’d say, but it is one of those moments where someone gives you a little kick to go just go for it anyway, and I am just really grateful to her to do that for me, and just for the opportunities I have had to create the change through that council. 

And I guess my two questions were, was the make up of the council as you anticipated? And did they listen to you and respect what you were saying?

100%, for question one, when I joined there was about 100 odd people on the council, and I was one of four women, two were from counties and one was on the board, and myself, and then there were three other people of colour, so Heather, myself, Paul Elliot who joined soon after, actually so he wasn’t even there when I joined, and another individual from the women’s game, so there was four, so really small percentages you are talking about there. 

And, the significant stat is always the one I say, I was probably less than half the average age of the council at the time, certainly the youngest member to have ever joined at the time, thankfully we have got younger members that have joined since, but yeah it was exactly what I expected in that sense. 

In terms of being listened to, and heard and accepted, I have definitely excepted into the fold, and actually I can point to a few individuals who are from that male white 70’s and 80’s background, of that description, who showed me the ropes as it were and helped to integrate me into the systems and the way they currently work, not that it meant that I would not want to change things because obviously I would, but certainly this is how things are done and getting use to that, and being heard in that sense, and helping actually to promote and push me behind the scenes as well, even though I have not been able to confirm it to the this day, I am pretty sure that one or two of them were really being voice when I wasn’t there, speaking in support of me, and actually things that I was suggesting to them to be done they were picking up on that. 

So, one of the things I can point to as an example was that soon after joining and then Paul Elliot joined soon after as a second representative from the inclusion board and council, we had this look at the governance structure of the FA, and looked at the fact that there was a national game board, and a professional game board, and there was a women’s football board, that sit under the main board where clearly there was a need to understand inclusion matters, and so we spoke to the then chairs of the those boards, and we said we would like to have representatives on there, we would like to get people onto there from the outside of the current circle, and they took it and they ran with it and they said yeah, lets do it, straight away support for that, and to look at where we were back then in 2014 when we joined the council, to where we are now where if you look at the council right now, the diversity of that council is just in stark contrast to when I first joined in terms of the number of women, you know there still need to be huge increase in terms of ethnic minorities on there, but there has been an increase which is great to see, young people coming on, not just because they are being place on like myself or Paul, or someone from the Youth Council, but because they are coming natural and organically through the processes, that has been great to see. 

All of this change is just good to see, there is a lot more to be done but we have been able to see that change, and I would hope that is largely down to the push that myself, Paul and everyone else that is now on that journey of inclusion and diversity with us is also pushing towards. 

And you have obviously sat on a number of different boards, and do now, what kind of board member are you would you say?

Oh, I think I take on different personalities depending on the situation to be honest. My style is very much authentic, speak the truth, speak my truth certainly, and just give my all in every situation, I demand excellence of myself and I try get and that excellence from others around me, and I guess the best way is, I always talk about personal leadership, and really leading by example, so someone for whom values is the core of everything, the purpose of why we are doing something, not just trying to grow for the sake of growing, but what are we trying to achieve, and at what cost actually might that be, those are the kind of questions I think I bring around a board table. 

You know, it’s for me I guess, for some people I could be challenging in some moments, and that doesn’t always help on a human level, but I try and do it with compassion and understanding, I’m persistent that is for sure, if I believe something is right, and certainly on the inclusion and diversity piece and getting equality of opportunity I will you know, constantly be challenging on that, but hopefully someone who is fair, I’m seen as fair, whether is it if people deserve praise, then the praise is always there, and if people deserve a bit of support to get things right, then that support is going to be there as well. 

And what would you say to young men and women considering board positions perhaps, but maybe lacking in confidence in their capabilities here and now?

I think if you can, ideally, finding mentors I think really helps. So, I had never had one mentor that I have gone to and said this person is my mentor, but I have always had people around me like that person that said to me you go for it, and sometimes you need those individuals to just get you through different moments in your life, whether it is going for a board position or otherwise. 

I think there is this idea of having your own personal boardroom, which is an idea that has been around for a while, and I would say think about that, think about who is going to be your champion, who is going to be your supporter, who is going to be your critic as well actually, someone who tells you what you could do better, and plays devil’s advocate when you need them too. 

Think about all these different roles, think about who is going to be the door opener for you, the connector, because in the end it is through those people that you’ll get the opportunities that will come to you, and I have definitely seen that in the various boardroom roles that I currently hold, as well as other bits of work that I have done, it’s always someone going Rimla I think I you would be perfect for this, do you want to join us, or could you help us with this. 

So, I would say keep doing that, the human connection is really important, and having your personal cheerleaders around you is really important as well. 

Excellent, I am going to take you back if I can a little bit, I would like to hear a little bit more about the hijab ban that was put in place in 2007, because I think as I have listened and read some of your interviews and podcasts, I guess I didn’t know as much about it as I thought I did, and I think it is really kind of important to look back at it and see. 

So, what was the story behind that? 

The hijab ban in 2007, wow it was special moment I will say that much, Sue. It was the most rushed through thing I have ever seen in my life in the sports industry, it was essential a young girl, I believe she was about 15 years old, was due to play football with her team in Canada, and she wears the hijab, and for some reason the referee said to her, you have to remove the hijab, for him he was saying it is a safety concern. She refused obviously to remove it, and so she was red carded, so the referee decided to send her off because she refused to remove her hijab. 

That obviously created this sort of up raw, and it went from being a local Canadian issue, to a national and then an international issue, and it just so happened that at the time of this, I think about a week after the incident or so, something like that, a very short time scale afterwards, there was a meeting of IFAB in Manchester, and IFAB is the body that is a part of FIFA, the international federation for football, and they set the laws of the game, and I think at that point in time there was no specific law which prevented the hijab from being warn, and however they decided this group of eight individuals, and you can imagine the demographic of those individuals, decided in their wisdom to say that the hijab wasn’t allowed on the pitch, on the field of play, but it wasn’t just the hijab actually it was actually any form of religious statement, or expression on the field of play and therefore hijab was determined as this religious expression, the turban would also be, the yarmulke, the Jewish cap that the men wear, that was also determined as a religious expression, so all of these would be banned. 

Clearly, the greatest impact would be on Muslim women because there are many money Muslim women playing football, than there are Sikh men with the turban, or that is how it came across at the time, and so yeah I still remember the statement coming out of Manchester that it had been banned, and again further uproar around this, and that is where I guess that kind of activism in a real sense began from a personal perspective, and also internationally starting to become connected with others around the world who were going to help us along the way. 

Long story short, it took us seven years, seven whole years to over turn that ban, it took us years of campaigning I remember writing as chair of the foundation to all of the home nations, because IFAB is made up of four people from FIFA, and then four other people who I made up from each of the home nations, so therefore it was very clear that at least one person from the home nations would’ve voted for this ban. 

I received a response obviously from the English FA, and I think it was the Scottish FA, I forget now, I received responses from two out of the four, who were very supportive of my position obviously, and particularly the English FA, and Sue Ravenlaw, who was then head of equality at the FIFA, and safeguarding who supported and pushed as much as she could internally with the English FA to do what we could to try and influence at the FIFA level. 

This issue was I think there is all sorts of politics at that level at FIFA in terms of secularism and religious expression in sport, and Prince Ali of Jordan, he got involved because obviously a lot of his players in Jordan, at Jordan FA would have been wearing a hijab, and eventually because he was obviously in the Executive Committee he was able to get a two year trial period, so they had to do a two year trial to prove that the hijab wasn’t a safety concern, and once we went through that process and the medical committee it all, that was when the ban was over turned. 

However, one thing that has always struck with me and I have been told not to touch it, because it might raise problems, problems might resurface, but I still struggle with that, and that is that they had to argue that the hijab wasn’t a religious garment, it was a cultural garment, and that to me is totally against what anyone outside of Muslim majority countries will say, because to someone like me it is very much a religious expression, it is an expression of me and how I choose to live my life from a religious aspect, and so there are things we are still not 100% okay with, but in the grander scheme of things you kind of have to go look, we can play football, and we can take that battle on when we need to take that battle on, and it is about timing. 

So, yeah it was a huge, huge struggle, but it’s untied people. The likes of Moya Dodd, and the pressure she put on from all the way in Australia, now I can call her a friend, Assmaah Helal who is in Australia, in Sydney, who also part of that with Moya, and the push from that side, and in Canada in Toronto a sports writer, was really pushing it from her perspective in terms of sports journalism, so it really united people around this cause. 

What was a shame was 2014, was when I was over turned, and in their wisdom FIBA the basketball equivalent of FIFA decided to bam the hijab in 2014, just after FIFA had overturned their ban, so yeah constant battles, I think it was at this point I just decided you know what we need to do a full scale revue of hijab bans, and clothing bans of all sports, and it’s something I have been working on for a while, but yeah it just unnecessary laws that are put in by people who don’t understand the impact of them to be honest. 

That is why leadership, and diversity in leadership and governance is so, so important as well for things like that. 

Obviously we talked before the podcast, but an incredibly important week for equality and all that is happening in the US, I am sometimes struck, and I was this week again, by the fact that the sports sector that I work in does feel dominated by white middle class women, in many of the networks, that I circulate in. Do you feel the same?

Do I feel that the female sports space is dominated by white women? 

Yeah? 

Yeah, 100%. I don’t think anybody can argue with that to be honest, and I think you about it earlier on in terms of the sports teams, so even if you look at it from a playing perspective very much dominated by white women, and you have got to look at that and go there is something not quite right here.

We need to stop making excuses for that, as I sort of talked about earlier on, we have really got to think about why that is, and what we have got to change and I think governance is one aspect of it, the idea that you get diversity and decision making spaces is really, really important, but we also need people if they are from the white community, they need to educate themselves around what are their own biases, and are they actually looking as wide, and as deep, and as far as they can when it comes to their area, and the area that they look after? 

This isn’t about just having a take over of people that aren’t from the white community, this is about everyone working together, to ensure that there is sufficient representation and that also the decision making is done with everyone in mind, and I think if you look at boardrooms, whether you look at players dressing rooms, or whether you look at coaching, all of these aspects, and in some sports it is the fan base as well, you can clearly see that is not a safe space for people of colour, but particularly women of colour, because you have to deal with the gendered racism as well as just the sexism, or if you are Muslim girl that wears a hijab and is visibly Muslim, dealing with that aspect of it, particularly the heightened islamophobia we deal with now days, think of it as in addition to that, with current events particularly in America now, think of being a black visibly Muslim women, and what that means, and all the different levels of your identity that you are so proud of, but those levels of the identity that are being used almost against you. 

So, yeah I think in all of my time in the sport industry, it has been a very white women lead movement and I have called that out in a number of spaces, and you might be aware of some of those, and I have to say in most cases the reaction has been oh yeah, you are actually right about that and what can we do, there are some that kind of see me a challenger, and therefore just push it to the side almost, but I am more interested in where we can create change and working in spaces that are mutually collaborative to change that, and I am starting to see those changes now. 

I remember getting a group of women from ethnic minorities together, I think it was about five years ago now, and these were the issues that were being talked about from media rooms, walking into new rooms and knowing that you are the only person who looks like you, and what that feels like, dealing with micro aggressions, like I say gendered racism, just sexist comments, or homophobic comments, all these kind of things, walking into a space and not knowing how to tackle that, how to deal with it, knowing that if you speak out actually does that mean your career is going to be at stake here, you know the repercussions of dealing with that. I think John Braeger spoke recently at a rally in London, and he said look I don’t know if I am going to have a career after this but bleep that, is basically what he said, but he is identifying a really real issues that black and Asian people face when we speak our truth whether it is in public or at work, and the fact that we have to think about this is not okay. 

Like I said earlier on I know I am seen as challenging by some, but I have learnt to expect that, that fact, because to me it says more about the people on the other side than it does about me, all I am working towards is equality of opportunity and respect for our communities, which is something I’ll never apologise for. 

So, it is about not having to do those things, I think whether you are white, black, Asian, we need to create an environment where the diversity is celebrated and difference is celebrated, and we can only I believe do that if we go outside our circles, and start to positively and proactively seek other opinions, and seek people from different backgrounds with different experiences and bring that together, I think it only just adds value to who we are as people, and whatever organisation it is we are working with. 

Can you tell me a little bit more about your work at the moment with Sport England and ‘get on board’ I think that kind of reinforces what you are commenting on there?

Yeah, so we took on a project with Sport England, which actually fell out of the meeting we had with women from ethnic minorities, because we didn’t want to just moan about all the issues that we are facing, we wanted to really think about what needs to be done, and a couple of key areas were education for the sport sector, in terms of what needs to be done from their side of things, but also mentoring and support, that sort of thing of knowing how to navigate your career, and knowing how to really make your way up, and smash through the multiple glass ceilings that you face as a women of colour, and when I presented that to Sport England, you know we had the code for sport governance, that came out a few years ago from Sport England and UK Sport which recognised, well it said you need 30% gender balance on your boards was the target that they set. 

But, I was disappointed that there wasn’t such targets, if you are going to set a target for gender, than as far as I am concerned you need to set a target across diversity, different strands of diversity, and so I was really disappointed particularly considering there is such a small number of ethnic minorities on sports boards even when the code was being put together, and even now, and so Sport England and I we spoke about the fact that this was disappointed, the fact that we needed to do something, and I know there was sort of this move from within to do something about it, let’s address the fact that we need more diversity full stop on our boards, and so that is where the programme that Perrett laver actually won the bid to deliver, they put this campaign together to produce a board ready list of diverse candidates for boards because it is one of the things I am sure Sue you have heard as well, when people say that they want more diversity on the board, if you challenge them and say they should have more diversity on your board, they will turn round and say they don’t know where these people are, we cant find them, can you help us and all that kind of stuff. 

We just sort of needed to call their bluff, and just say look here is a list of over 100, take your pick, so that is what we decided to do Perrett Laver like say lead that, and a consortium of partners, and we were tasked by Sport England really too focus on women from ethnic minorities, specifically based on all of that stuff around mentoring and support and guidance, it is not to say that there was anything wrong with the women, the women were absolutely fine, but it was about navigating the industry which can be hard, especially when you are on your own. 

So, that is where it came from, we  had 12 women on the programme who were from different industries, from the arts, sport people included in that, but from arts, education sectors and they just did fantastic and over half are on boards, or are ambassadors of boards and another quarter are sort of on hold because of COVID, but hopefully they’ll be on boards very soon as well. 

You have recently joined the board of RFL, and they were one of my clients actually many years ago, what lovely people lovely sport, lovely community, I have almost answered my own question there, so why did you choose to join that board?

You just said it didn’t you, just then. I was 100% honest to them in my interview, and I will be the same here that I have heard of Super League I have seen it on sky, but I’m not a rugby league person I am from the south, I am from London, and Rugby League is definitely not in London, I had grown up watching Union, which was probably not the best thing to say in an interview for Rugby League, but it was the honest truth. 

What happened was before applying, the more I spoke to people in the Rugby League space whether here in the UK, or abroad the more I just realised that the values of this sport are so aligned to who I am, and what I am about, and when I talk about values I talk about respect, I talk about integrity, I talk about community, I think about inclusion, I think about just being a really real sport, and not just in a touchy feely kind of way, but just practically in terms of what they are about purpose wise, the difference they make to the lives of the people that they engage with, and even the sport the itself is a proper sport, I mean there is like I’m not going to make comparisons to Union but it is a proper sport, so you know just so many good things, and I just thought this is an opportunity I don’t want to lose out on, and I am just really grateful that they selected me to join their board. 

Look they will be the first also to recognise that they are a very inclusive sport, but there are areas that they have to develop in as well and that is something that I can support them with and I am doing currently, so really enjoying the journey thus far but they are just a great bunch of people, who this means more to them. 

It is fantastic that the World Cup is so inclusive in terms of women’s, men’s, the wheelchair games all taken place too, it is great to see that as a sport as well…

Yeah, which other sport can boast that? Just goes to show what they are about. 

And, finally looking back across your career for other that I guess are aspiring to be where you are in the future, what do you think are the biggest challenges you have faced in your career?

I would say, and I think this is partly because of my character I guess, I tend to look inward a lot and I am my biggest critic, so I really don’t need other people to criticise me, but I do get that sometime as well which is fine. 

I am my biggest critic, and often at times that can translate to now always going for positions, not pushing myself as far as I would like to, as I would hope to more than anything else, and so I think in terms of challenges they have always been on a personal level, so my attitude is very much that the systemic discrimination structures of inequality exists, I know that they exist, but I want to focus on what I can do. 

So, it is that thing of personal leadership, what can I do to navigate around them, it is something I shouldn’t have to do but I will do it to in order in then I guess to try and dismantle some of those structures as much as possible with friends and colleagues who can help me do that, so I guess in terms of challenges it is personal challenges in terms of not doubting myself and what I am able to do, not being distracted by the noise and the clutter that is out there, and just being focused on what the end goal is. 

I guess I would say that you know whoever you are, whatever you do in the industry, or in life in general just be clear on what your purpose is, what you’re about, what your values are, and as long as you stay true to those the challenges that you face will be easier to face with that clarity of thoughts, that clarity of vision. So, for me challenges aren’t challenges, they are just an opportunity for me to work through and come out the other side even better.