Hope Powell: On not letting your past define your future

I was brought up on an estate, and I just played it in the street, watched it on TV and then wanted to try and replicate what I saw on TV on the streets. I was a street kid, a street footballer, and my love came from that, just playing really, playing and watching it. 

And, do you think you were aware at that stage that there were no women competing at that level? 

I think so. I think the fact that everything you saw was always around men’s football, there were never any women players shown on TV, until I remember Channel 4  at the time I think it was QPR, the first ever viewing, and that was the only time I ever saw it on TV, but generally it was all centred around men’s football to be honest. 

As you mentioned, you were kind of strong playing as a young girl and think you and your school girlfriend, Jane, were banned from playing mixed football with the boys in your school team, because you were beating too many teams. So, how did that feel to you at the time as a young girl?

Well, I couldn’t really understand it at the time, it was just a case that we just wanted to play and we were good enough to get into the school team, but unfortunately the rules didn’t allow it. As a kid, you don’t quite understand why not. 

The fact that you just want to play, and you want to be part of the school team, it made no sense at the time, so it was a little bit disappointing. 

As you say it was kind of hard playing, did you ever feel like giving up at the time, when you had that kind of pressure? Did it make your stronger to keep playing?

I don know, to be honest I can’t remember that far back, it never crossed my mind to stop playing. I think I was quite sporty, and I was very good at most sports. The one that I particularly enjoyed was football, so even when I was stopped, I still went back on the estate and played, and continued to play until I was allowed to play organised football again. 

And that was around 1978, you played with Millwall Lionesses’, I think you were just 11 or 12, so how did it feel then be with so many amazing female footballers for the first time having played on the street in the past? 

Yeah, I think I was a little bit shocked actually that it was organised, my first thought was oh my god, there is so many girls that play, I thought it was brilliant. They were coached at the time, and there were cones, there were bibs, there were goals, it was proper, proper football. So, it was great, a great experience for me at that age. 

You mentioned playing on some pretty rubbish surfaces through that time. Do you think that kind of improved your skill level, the challenge? 

Yeah, it probably did actually. I played on concrete, on muddy pitches, on every kind of surface you can think of. So, it probably gave me a really good ground in terms of my technical ability, so it probably did me a favour in the long run. Probably not my body, but yeah!

You went onto get your first cap at just 16, which is pretty extraordinary. How do you think your experience then was different then then to the young Lionesses’ that are coming through today? 

It probably wouldn’t happen today, because there is obviously a clear pathway, which is great. It was quite daunting actually, being so young, but thankfully at the time I had Brenda, who also got called up, and some really good people that were there that looked after me, but it was quite intimidating, quite frightening I think, until obviously you get on the pitch and you feel at ease, and then I was really able to show what I could do. 

So, very different times now because of the clear pathway, and rightly so. There is an opportunity for players to grow and develop and have that education along the way, and probably have a long-lasting career if they are good enough. 

And the podcast is all about trail blazers, and also recognising all the incredible women behind the scenes making it happen. So, can you tell us a little bit about women like Linda Whitehead and Sue Prior, and the women that were behind the scenes then when you were growing up?

Yeah, unsung heroes really. I think they did a lot that other people probably want to do, couldn’t do, they kept clubs a float. Talking about Sue Prior she did so much off the pitch, the organisation, the washing of the kit, she wrote weekly bulletins for the players, she did fundraising, she did everything as I guess the sectary of the club at that time, without much help, you know one person doing everything and quite phenomenal actually. 

It is really pleasing to know that she is still involved in the game at Charlton, and obviously with England Linda Whitehead again, logistics, sponsorship, making sure all the girls were alright, and these  were real, real good people, and without those people the game probably wouldn’t be where it is today. I think a lot of credit, certainly for me, Sue Prior and Linda Whitehead, in terms of administration and sporting the girls, backroom staff that nobody sees. Those two are very prominent figures in the game I would say. 

You were called into the FA’s Lancaster Gate headquarters for a chat in 1998, and I think at the time you might have thought it might have been something around youth team coaching, but that wasn’t what they asked you. So, how did you feel? You were just 31, so how did that feel at the time? 

 Yeah, again it was a surprise, all very surreal. I think when they said about the England manager, I tried to really be cool, as I am, I guess, just my personality. Obviously, when I left, I was like oh my god, really. A real honour, but I wasn’t absolutely sure, I couldn’t understand it, I couldn’t make sense of it, having had no experience in terms of management before. 

I think I asked the right questions at the time, I asked them I need some days to think about it, and really it was the influence of my friends, and I think what really stuck in my mind I think was what Kelly Simmons said at the time. That really stuck in my mind, and then a really good friend of mine, well it was Brenda actually, said you have got to take it, otherwise there will be consequences. 

So, yeah you know I went for it, and I think the fact that I had little experience of management I just basically thought about what went before, what I liked what I didn’t like. I had really good mentor at the time as well, still is my mentor today, and it just helped me get through it to be honest.  

Did you have any idea do you think of the pressure and criticism that role would cause at as well? 

No, because the game wasn’t in the limelight as it is today, there was no pressure, the expectation wasn’t as great as it today. So, I didn’t even think about that, which was probably a good thing, it just allowed me try and concentrate and do the best I could do at the time. 

Because you were playing at the time, so did you consider the player/manager type role? 

Erm, no, too much, too big a job, too much, and obviously I had to detach myself from what were once team mates, and then become the manager of your friends actually, so yeah, I just had to king of and separate the two.

And I loved your comment that women got their first black manager, its first women manager, and it its first gay manager, so talk about being a game changer. Were you conscious that you were such a trail blazer at the time? or it is retrospectively you have looked back? 

Retrospectively, I think at the time you are so consumed about just trying to do a good job, I think my first thing was I can’t fail this, I cannot fail, and really drove me, because what was the expectations? Somebody unknow, yes, known as a player, never known as a manager, and I really thought at the time, and I asked the question, is it a token gesture?

I was really quite conscious or being a female, being black, is this all a bit of a PR stunt really. So, I was very conscious of working hard and failing was not an option, whatever success looked like at the time, clearly there were some targets, somethings that I wanted to do, somethings that I wanted to change, which I did, so the pressure of the job, it was never results drive, it was never about media attention, which did me a favour at the time. 

It was an enormous brief really, with no template to follow. It must have been very daunting in those early day? Did you find it was especially hard as a woman in that role at the FA at the time?

Erm, there wasn’t the resources and the support that there is today obviously. Although I must say that as I grew into the role, Howard Wilkinson, Robin Russell, they really all supported me, because I kept asking questions. I kept going back and what about this, what about this, what about this, and Howard in particular really embraced it in the end, and at the beginning he did say to me, look I don’t follow the womens game, I’m not familiar with it, but I’m here to help, and he was probably my biggest ally. He was fantastic to be fair. 

So, you know it was difficult, because it was all about the men’s game, it was as it is today, but not so much so. I think it allowed me to quietly behind the scenes make changes in my own way. 

And, you have said if you like to be liked, probably football management isn’t for you. Was that one of the hardest parts of the role?

What not being liked? 

Or the pressure from the people on the outside?

I think it is very easy watching the game, and making all these should’ve done this, I mean it happens today in the men’s game. People really, and I’m very, very sympathetic to all the managers that get criticised by people that really do not understand what goes on behind the scenes.

Sat on the sofas at home!

Yeah, which is the beauty of the game, but decisions aren’t made randomly, they are made based on the knowledge you have at the time, and you make certain decisions because of other things happening and going on. It is a tough role, and you have to really be hardened to it. 

If you want to be liked, and popular, and we have seen some great managers in men’s football go from hero to zero in a very, very quick space of time, so you have to be prepared for that in management, that you are not always going to be popular. 

The pathway for female players, as you mentioned earlier, from all the youth teams and so on, really transformed under your watch, and before you started there weren’t really any other squads, you just go thrown in at the deep end with senior players. How easy was it to make those changes?

It helped because of competition. So, UEFA and FIFA started to promote the youth competitions which gave me the ammunition I guess to go to the board, and go look this is happening, we need to get a team together, we need to obviously have trials, we need to do all things to ensure that we are prepared, so when EUFA do do it, so they did an Under 19 competition in first year, there was a group of players but we had to build on that, then there was the Under 17’s. 

I introduced an Under 15’s to feed the Under 17’s at the time, I then introduced Under 21 to feed the seniors so that there was a clear pathway, and back then we had two-year age bands. Now because the talent pool was a lot broader, they are going for single year ages bands which makes sense. 

So, yeah it was good to have that in place, to promote the best talent that we had and give them a chance really. 

You were the first women in the country I believe to receive your pro-licence qualification and there was speculation at the time that you might be the first women to coach a men’s professional team, did you get close at the time? 

I was offered, I won’t say who, I was offered a lower league job in the men’s game, which I refused. I did think about it, but I refused. I think the assumption was that working in the men’s game, was better than working for England. I just couldn’t, Like really? That is really poor assumption actually. 

My passion is the women’s game, I would obviously never say no, it is about opportunities and I have always said if an opportunity presented itself that I felt passionately about then like any other career choice, then I would look at it, but my passion really is the women’s game and I am thankful that I stayed in it, and I’m still lucky enough to be in it. 

You were very much the driving force behind the Womens Super League, how proud are you to see how that has evolved over the past decade? 

It wasn’t just me to be honest, there were a lot of people that were involved in that, I played a very, very small part. Yeah, I thought at the time, we wanted to try and create a league that would be better than any other. 

We really wanted the league, this is the only bit that I would say is a bit disappointing, but understandably so, we wanted to create a league where English players would be at the forefront of it, and be the best they can be within the league, and actually player, rather than going abroad and playing. Like we had a few players that went off to the states, we wanted to create a league that would attract home grown English talent, as it stands it has become so good that everybody from abroad wants to come and play in it. 

But, yeah I think it has attracted the best talent, so that is a compliment to the league, which is a detriment sometimes to English talent sitting on the bench, a bit unfortunate. I think what they have done in recent years, broadcast deals, live games, weekly live games, has been really tremendous. I think certainly the world cup boosted that in terms of attention around game. 

So, the Super League it is great, I think the challenges to make it as competitive at it can be, rather than being almost a split league, three leagues within a league, that is the danger, that is the bit, and being involved in it now form a club perspective you just see the divide, which I’m looking thinking right okay, we have to be careful here. 

It is starting to end up like the men’s game, where you have got the top, the ones that have got the most money, get the best players, and if you have got the best players, you have got the best chance of winning everything, whilst everybody else struggles around. It is challenging, I think there is some challenges coming that need to be managed. 

Looking back at your role, I guess you had an amazing role as England manager for so long, and you’ve commented that you knew in 2011/2013, that things weren’t going so well in some of the tournaments there. Did you alert people at the time? Did you think people perhaps didn’t listen to you there?

No, I think 2011 I thought we did well, I think 13 was probably, almost in the tournament I knew it was going to be bad tournament, I knew it was and you have this feeling and this sense. I was kind of making plans for the next stage, the kids coming through were probably at the point where they would then all be introduced, you know the kids that are playing now, were going to be at the forefront of my next sort of campaign, but sadly I didn’t get the chance to do that, but you have a feeling as a manager and a coach sometimes it becomes all too familiar for players, and I would have changed it, absolutely changed it, but you know it wasn’t my decision and it is what it is. 

It is great to see those younger players now come through, and are doing really well. 

Sadly, August 2013 you lost your role there at the FA, and obviously a lot of press and profile around that too. How did you deal with that loss at the time, on a personal level?

I can’t talk too much about the ins and outs of it because there were obviously gagging clauses and all of that. I openly will say, I’ll be forever disappointed I think I was treated quite badly, but I guess every manager would say that, it is not nice to lose your job. 

I think the biggest thing for me, it as everybody else around me who really took is badly, which probably helped me actually, because I ended up having to look after everybody else. I must give credit to the LMA who were absolutely fantastic, really supported me through it. 

But, to be honest it was not pleasant, but it really just made me look forward, that is past, I’m just going to look forward, and I think my mindset and how I very quickly decided that this would not define me, really helped me, and the fact that I had to end up looking after everybody else, really helped me as well. 

So, it was strange times, but I go through it, as everybody would get through it, not nice because it is quite public, but in all honesty I think I did a great job, I loved every minute, apart from the last 5 minutes and I am very thankful that I got the opportunity to manage my country. 

It must been pretty exhausting in your role, 15 years, back to back tournaments managing 5 teams, building the academy, helping to form that Super League, your constantly in the spot light as the face of the women’s game as the profile grew and also fighting those internal battles for funding and support. Do you like back now and think you were almost doing the job of three or four people, especially where they are now?

When I came away, I was really like I don’t know how I did that. I do know, because I was driven and so obsessed to help shift it on, really passionate and wanted some equality to a degree, and I think where I started is where I ended, by you know I don’t want to foul, I don’t want to foul myself and I don’t want to foul the women’s game, and that gave me a real drive, but absolutely I did a lot of work, which today there are more people that are doing the work, which is great, but it would have been great to have it back then.

That’s one of things where I will say I’ll be forever disappointed, because I was treated really badly, I did a lot. 

And, I think people do recognise that, certainly on the podcast a lot of the players so Kelly, and Casey, they talk a lot about you and impact you have had on their past, and obviously on what they are doing no too, so it is great to hear that. 

Do you think at the time, if there had of been other senior roles in womens football in the UK, some of these senior manager roles, you might have left on your own accord sooner? If there had been in the way that there is now in the WSL?

Probably, 2009 when we got to the final, I kind of really wanted to stop then, but it is so different now, it’s so different, but that was the time when I thought really I need to stop, but obviously you still have to pay a mortgage, and you still have to do those things that kind of sway you. 

2011 I loved that tournament, the world cup, so yeah, I was tired in the end. 

But looking back now, watching the Lionesses’ play last summer etc, do you have some sympathy for press’ attitude towards Phil Neville and the way he is now treated as England manager?

I was asked this question a couple of weeks ago when we weren’t on lockdown, what do you think about the SheBelieves Cup, and you know it is really difficult, it is unfair, because they are friendly tournaments. 

The friendly tournaments that I was involved in, allowed the players like Lucy Bronze, Jordan Nobbs, Steph Houghton, all of those players to get experience, that present them as they are today. So, let’s not focus on the friendly tournaments, let’s focus on the tournaments that matter, i.e. The World Cup that has just gone. Focus on the next tournament, and that is the downside of football, the press, I think have got to put it in context, they are friendly tournaments, they are friendly matches, make the judgement when it matters in my opinion. 

And, you went on you mentioned almost leaving that role and then looking forward and doing some amazing stuff, and you did some work with FIFA and UEFA on a global basis, can you tell us a little bit about what you did there? 

So, a lot of coach education, a lot of speaking at conferences, so just sharing a bit of my knowledge and imparting it with other coaches was brilliant, I loved it. Travelled for two years around the globe, all over, just sharing my knowledge and helping coaches develop, it was fantastic, a fantastic opportunity, and I am really thankful for FIFA and UEFA that give not just me, lots of other female coaches that can’t perhaps get the game full-time the opportunity to go and influence and help other coaches in developing countries, in developed countries, it was brilliant, I really enjoyed it, really loved it. So, yeah had a good time doing it, and it really gave me a chance to reflect, take time out, meet loads of different people, yeah it was good times, good times. 

Back to Brighton Hove Albion, it’s your third year now. So, people were surprised that you took a role at the time perhaps in WSL 2? 

Well you know, before I went to the PFA, as you probably know, so the whole coach education and then I really just thought you know I wanted to get back on the grass. 

I started to put the feelers out, I thought I think I am ready to come back on the grass, be part of the game, be part of a team. Brighton, because of the Chief Exec who I know very well from my time at the FA, I knew they had ambitions to be in WSL 1, met the club, good club, players that wanted do well, the club that wanted to do well, good choice, and good fit, good match for me so I was more than happy. 

I’m a bit of a builder, I like to build stuff rather than the other way round, so yeah it was perfect, it was ideal, and WSL 2, I just thought what a great experience. 

And you are enjoying your time there? You are building as you said? 

Fantastic club, fantastic people. I feel very honoured and lucky to be at a club that value the women’s game, and value people, so very happy. 

And a beautiful part of the world as well… 

Yes, and then I come back! But, yeah. 

Just finally, obviously you have achieved so much in your career, and had a massive impact on the women’s game. What is next in your career? Clearly you are well established at Brighton, but are there other ambitions you have within the game?

Yes, I would like to win the league, win the champions league, all those things. I want the club to grow, develop, I think my sort of next ambitions, hopefully within Brighton, is I’d like to come off the grass at some point and be the sort of technical director, something along that, but still be involved I  the game, love to stay at Brighton, I keep saying don’t fire me just yet. 

It is such a good club, I feel very lucky and very honoured to be there, so to stay within the club, but I don’t necessarily want to stay on the grass forever. The thing is when you are away from the grass, then you miss it, but yeah still be involved in it and I think the thing is have got a very, very good team and I want to help them as people develop. I’m very passionate about developing others, and helping others be the best they can be so, yeah.