Maggie Alphonsi: The importance of being curious and constantly learning
SA: Hello and welcome to The Gamechangers Podcast where you’ll be hearing from trailblazing, fearless women in sport. I’m Sue Anstiss and in this episode it’s rugby legend, Maggie Alphonsi MBE. Few players in recent times have had such an impact on the world stage as this England flanker and World Cup winner. Now retired from the game, Maggie talks so passionately about her playing career and her future leadership aspirations.
Rugby’s now one of the fastest growing sports for women in the UK but that wasn’t the case when Maggie started playing. I began by asking her if she could remember the first time she had picked up a rugby ball.
MA: Yes, I can remember. So I picked up the rugby ball officially around when I was around 13/14 years old down at my local ruby club, Saracens. But I guess the reason why it all came about was because my behaviour at school was really bad. My PE teacher at the time, a lady called Lisa Burgess who was the captain of the Welsh women’s rugby side suggested I go to my local rugby club because my behaviour was so bad and pick up this sport, because it might turn me around, change me to a better person. And I listened to her. I went to my local club, so when I picked up that rugby ball for the first time, I was quite baffled by it, because I came from North London, rugby at the time wasn’t very popular. Football was pretty much the dominant sport so this ball, full-stop, was quite novel to me.
The way it looked and how it moved and why would anyone want to pass it backwards? And at school we didn’t play rugby. Rugby was for the boys but the boys still didn’t really like rugby because again football was the main sport. So rugby I was really unaware of. So I go to my local rugby club, pick up the ball, make a pass, make a tackle. I fell in love with it. It was a sport that really did fit my characteristics. I was big, I was strong and I sort of had really aggressive behaviour back then and it really worked. Also it helped to control my attitude and my behaviour because I was surrounded by other people who were equally wanting to be quite physical and be quite strong, but also very respectful. So, yeah I found a sport that I guess suited my nature.
SA: I remember Lisa Burgess myself, Bird, from Loughborough many, many years ago but fantastic to hear that a teacher make such a difference to you at that key point in your life there as well.
MA: Yes, she was significant. I talk about her mainly because she was the one who sort of directed me to the rugby and then there was another individual called Miss Walker, at the time, and she pretty much managed to maintain my, I guess my leadership behaviour. Because she gave me that direction on how to be responsible for my actions and I guess knowing where I want to go in my career. So both those two teachers had a significant impact in my life. But I guess Lisa Burgess, ‘Bird’, directed me down that rugby path.
SA: And what was the set-up like at Saracens at the time?
MA: Yeah, so very thankfully at Saracens, they had a girls section which not a lot of rugby clubs did. Not a lot of rugby clubs had women sections. So to go to Saracens and know that they had a first team and a second team women’s team, and they had, it wasn’t an under-16s or under-18s team, it was basically just a girls’ set up. And our coach at the time, Katy Ball, a fantastic individual, who also did a bit of rowing and went to the Olympics – I can’t remember what year it was – in her spare time. She was basically our coach at the time and it was great. We had about 12 girls playing and we weren’t all experts at the sport but we were just gradually learning through Katy Ball and I think going down to the club, seeing these girls who are quite similar to me and from real diverse backgrounds, really appealed to me and they made me feel incredibly welcomed. And also I saw women, I saw the girls – we trained on an earlier time to the women – so when we finished training I’d see the women after and I’d think, wow, that’s my, I’m hoping that I’ll one day be like that and I would see Bird every now and then come to training. So it was nice to be part of a club where I could be around peers who were similar to me but then also see the individuals that I hoped to aspire to be like.
[0:04:26]
SA: I was going to ask you about role models. We talk a lot about role models – I know my daughters still talk about meeting you at the Women’s Sport Trust Awards those years ago, so you’ve obviously inspired many girls. Did you have role models at that time?
MA: So I guess growing up I probably would say the role model that I sort of looked at was Denise Lewis. Back in 2000 when she won the Gold Medal at the Sydney Games. It was great to see someone I guess again looked and came from a similar background to me. I know she’s Wolverhampton or Birmingham based, that’s where she sort of originated from and myself as well, I came from North London in Edmonton in quite a challenging background. But to see someone of her I guess, level, go that far from where she came from and then be a profile for many other women, women of colour in particular, I looked up to her significantly and I still do to this day.
SA: Does she know that, have you told her? She might know now if she hears this.
MA: I haven’t actually. I haven’t told her. What’s funny is that every now and again I get mistaken for her so it’s quite a nice thing to know that someone out there thinks that I look like her. But I haven’t told her. I just think it’s nice to know that there’s someone out there who is still paving the way. She paved the way for a lot of female athletes. We talk about the likes of Jessica Ennis Hill being brilliant at what she does. Katherine Grainger as well, but I genuinely believe Denise Lewis was the starting female role model for us, because she, I think at the time was the only female Brit to win a gold medal in 2000, in athletics.
So I just think she’s someone who sort of set the mould for many female athletes and now many of us look up to her.
SA: You’ll then be the role models in the future. How does that feel to you knowing that you are a role model in inspiring women and girls?
MA: Probably similar to Denise Lewis, you don’t think that you are doing it. You don’t set out to be a role model. If anything you just set out to be the best that you can be, the best version of you and hope that others will follow your footpath. And that’s what I do. I go out, I played my rugby and I’ve played it to the best of my capability and not let anyone stop me regardless of what their perceptions may be. So being a female wasn’t going to let that stop me, being from an ethnic minority I wasn’t going to let that stop me, or come from a low social economic background, I wasn’t going to let that stop me.
And I think what’s great is that I’ve been successful on that main stage and now people from that sort of background who maybe have similar starting points to me are now thinking, do you know what? I can totally do that. And if anything, I can exceed what she’s achieved and that for me is brilliant. And now when I do media stuff, again I keep thinking the same thing I apply that same principle as I was as an athlete, is I’m not going to let anyone stop me regardless of perceptions that people have of me and hopefully trough you just doing what you do it leads others to follow you.
[0:07:26]
SA: It sounds like you were super-committed in terms of playing and training as your career then developed. At what point do you think you recognised you had real potential to go on and play on a larger stage?
MA: It’s funny, even when I look back now and think it was that imposter syndrome. I never thought at any stage I was going to be successful and make it to play for England. I just played my sport, I absolutely loved it. I enjoyed the fact that I was good at tackling and that I was able to work with other team members and help them look good as well. So I loved that feeling. So I never really understood or expected that I would make it to be very successful but when I finally got there I started to really believe it. It’s that fake it till you make it sort of feeling where, okay, I might get there, I might get there. Okay, I’ve finally got there, now I’ve got to finally believe that I am an incredibly good athlete and I guess not until I retired did I really stop and look back and think, yeah, I was alright, I wasn’t too bad.
SA: That first England Cap, at what point did you think, not I’ve made it but you could take a moment to recognise …?
MA: So my first England Cap was way back in 2003 and I was out in Canada and I scored my first try for England against USA, it feels so long ago. And that year was an incredible year because the men had won the men’s Rugby World Cup. So to get my first cap, it felt like that year was an amazing year. Not because of the men’s World Cup but because of me obviously! So even to this day, scoring that try, having that experience, I still felt almost like a naïve rugby player, ‘cos I was surrounded by some …
SA: How old were you when you got your first cap?
MA: I was 19-years old and I was surrounded by some fantastic legends. For me at the time, a lady called Paula George, Karen Andrews, Claire Frost, Helen Clayton – some brilliant, fantastic role models for me in the world of rugby, I got to play alongside them. So I didn’t feel like I had to worry but I did feel like I was the young one in the group. But it was an amazing experience and one I really do treasure.
SA: Jumping forward then to that extraordinary World Cup win in 2014. Obviously there had been three World Cups before that where you lost in the semi-finals which must have been hugely painful for the team. How many of those had you played in previously?
MA: Thanks to you for reminding me of that! Yeah, so I played in two of the World Cups beforehand so in 2006 out in Canada, again Silver and then 2010 in England at the Harlequin Stoop, and we got Silver there. So yeah I played in two of those World Cups and each and every single one of them were quite painful to experience but drove me on for another four years.
SA: How do you do all that? As a team and as an individual, ‘cos I guess that is seen as the pinnacle, the Six Nations or the World Cup, but how did you deal with that in the intervening years?
[0:10:31]
MA: In 2006 I guess I was the young one in the team, I was 22 years old and that was my first rugby World Cup. I truly believed that we were capable of winning that World Cup, I still believe that we were capable of winning that World Cup. And so when we lost it, I think I just felt quite angry, not at my team, I just felt angry, the fact that I knew that we had it in our grasp and we probably weren’t able to get over the line. So, if anything, what it did do was for me as an individual I guess, it made me more driven and more focused. And also at that time, my team had quite a lot of experienced players, so post that World Cup in 2006, a lot of the team retired. So, if anything, I became one of the senior players going into 2010.
So it was painful to experience that loss in 2006 but it was a very good learning experience for myself as an individual and for some of those younger players in the team. 2010 I think was probably was the most painful of all the experiences because I guess it was another four years. There was a lot of build-up around women’s rugby.
SA: You were at home.
MA: At home yeah, and we had a good crowd, so back then actually that was probably a record crowd for women’s rugby in England. I think we had just under 14,000 people coming to watch that game. Again, it was against New Zealand so one of the biggest nations, the score was 10-all I think until the final like five minutes and then we lost it by three points.
So, again I look at that game as, Oh God we had it in our grasp and we let it go and so after that final, it wasn’t necessarily anger, it was almost now revenge. So I think, and what was great, that team we pretty much stayed together. So only a couple or three players retired but that team was able to go on a journey for another four years which is what I think allowed us to win it in 2014.
SA: What do you think was different in 2014 that made that happen?
MA: It was that emotional connection I’ve forgotten the person’s name but they talk a lot about the WHY?
SA: Steven Sinek, I just gave the book to someone this afternoon, got a stash in my office that I give out!
MA: It is a fantastic theory. Yeah, understanding the why? So it’s understanding the team why but more importantly it’s about understanding each and every individual’s why. Why do you want to win a World Cup? Why do you want to play for England? And I think I, as an individual, learned more about the people in my team. I had this emotional connection that was all about wanting to win a World Cup for them and not really about winning it for yourself as an individual.
SA: Was there a psychologist or someone that worked with you on that in the intervening time?
MA: Yeah, there was a psychologist who came on board and she sort of, I think we had it already, we just needed someone just to being it out so she was quite significant going into the last week of the tournament, because we started to bring that the forefront. And I just think, not until you know your actual reasons why you’re there, and everyone else’s reasons why they’re there, do you start to go, Okay, that’s why I want to win the World Cup. It’s not about your own profile. It’s not about making lots of money. It’s not about that.
SA: And suddenly you’ve got 15 different reasons … yours and other reasons too.
MA: It’s for the people you actually are considering to be your family and that you’re instilling your future in. So that was huge for us, that was absolutely probably the main reason why we won it, understanding the why, having that psychologist come in to sort of steer us in that right direction and then realising it was about a team, was a team focus, not an individual focus.
[0:14:07]
SA: And so winning, amazing. As you sit here now today, five years on, can you remember how you felt at the time?
MA: Seems so long ago if I’m honest. I felt younger that’s what I felt. Well, basically what I felt personally was relief. Because I guess to be part of a team over that 12-year period and lose two World Cup finals was quite tiresome.
SA: And I guess knowing that people were going to retire as well, that’s the extra pressure.
MA: That’s exactly the case. It was almost like we had to win this. Losing wasn’t an option because I knew if we had lost that final, it starts again, those who are Olympic athletes know what it’s like, you start again and it’s quite hard work and especially a lot of the experienced players would have stepped away, lots of young players and if I’m honest, a cycle of winning a World Cup takes about eight years I’d say, 8-12years.
We saw that with our England’s women’s team, they lost the World Cup in 2017 and I genuinely think they’ll go on to be successful in the next World Cup because it takes time to build a team, you can’t just do it in four years. I personally believe anyway. So I think winning that World Cup in 2014 was the right time and our team was very close but yet it was relief, rather than just celebration. Yeah it was like actually, we’ve finally done it and that’s so good.
And even after the final, the last thing I was thinking about was getting incredibly drunk. It was actually all about there’s some good key people in my life who are out there, out in France with us, and I just wanted to say thank you to them, and thank you to my team mates and then get to bed! That was basically it, the job was done.
SA: And do you think if you hadn’t won, would you have continued on to play for another cycle do you think?
MA: I would like to have. I think there’s two things that probably would have influenced my decision. So prior to that final anyway, I didn’t announce that I was going to retire but I remember collecting my shirt and I was crying anyway prior to that final and so I knew that I was going to step down, because once I’d finished a World Cup and we won it, I had to announce my retirement. So I guess the two things that were influencing my decision would have been, if we’d won it I would try to hang around but I knew that the best of my rugby days was pretty much over anyway, and I’m a big believer, it’s not about me, it’s about making sure that the next players come through and have that experience.
I was 30-years old and yeah, it wasn’t about me, there are some other younger players coming through. I look at Mia Packham in particular, players like that who actually, it’s about letting them have their moment.
SA: I hadn’t really thought about that side but I guess people that go on and play and play, but actually it’s about allowing others the space to come and have their time in the sunshine.
[0:17:04]
MA: Yeah, because prior to me, a lady called Helen Clayton, we call Rob, she was the dominant number seven before I got that shirt and then I remember when I retired, she said to me, ‘It’s the changing of the guards. It’s now for me to step away and for you to have your moment.’ And I really remember that very clearly. So that’s why when I stepped away, Mya Packham’s always going to be successful anyway, and there’s many other number sevens and back rows who are doing well but really, I’ve had my moment.
SA: It’s on your terms as well isn’t it? You’re not going out through injury or being deselected. You’re in control. You said there were two things?
MA: Yeah sorry. Basically it would have been, changing of the guards, wanting to let others have the opportunity but also knowing what elite coaches are like, they’re thinking about the next cycle and actually, will I be a good player in four years’ time? I doubt it so I think the coaches at the time would have also enforced that decision on me. And I guess the third thing would have been is I had quite a bad knee problem anyway and I remember talking to the surgeon who worked on my knee and I remember him saying to me, you’ve got one more good year left in that knee, and that took me up to the World Cup.
So once the World Cup was over, I played for another year at club rugby, but I struggled because my knee wasn’t at its very best really. So I was really fortunate, the timing of the World Cup had come at the right time, in a sense that I could step away, I wasn’t getting any younger but my knee had enough in it to be the best that it could be.
SA: In terms of other sports, and your history and I know that you dabbled a bit in terms of some athletics and shot putt, had you played other sports, other team sports or anything else?
MA: So, football was a big thing for me, so I guess growing up in North London not too far from Tottenham, and Arsenal actually, you had to basically be interested in the round ball. So I absolutely loved football and I played it at playtime at school, with the boys, and all of the girls would play and I’d play for our school team. And I took up a little bit of it at my local club which was I think Enfield FC.
SA: So why rugby and not football do you think?
MA: I guess, deep down inside me I saw football as being a sport that everyone played it and I wanted something completely different.
SA: I think many of rugby players feel that, I guess as it gets more popular, that almost becomes more of a challenge. But I know my daughters like the fact that other people at school don’t play it.
MA: I saw it as a unique, novel thing which people were intrigued by. Where, if I said I played football, I think people would just be like, oh yeah, I play it as well or they’d have perceptions of me playing football or they’ll impose their opinions on me, which I really wasn’t interested in. Where rugby was so different, they’re like, wow, what’s that like? You must be hard, you’re a tough person to play that sport.
So I loved it and that’s what sort of drove me on. And even still to this day, the rugby game is getting popular within women and girls which is great and I think it’s unfortunately not where football is in terms of popularity and profile but it’s a sport that still is I think unique. It’s different, it brings interesting values and I think it instils confidence I think in people’s body images and also their attitude to life, I think. So rugby did that for me and I think what’s great is it’s doing that for many other younger girls and women.
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SA: And are you still involved at Saracens now?
MA: I was on their Saracens Women’s Board. I’ve now stepped away from it but I’m now an avid, passionate Saracens supporter. And that’s the thing, I probably wanted to step away from it, to just love it for what it’s worth and I’m so proud and pleased with what the women’s team has become now.
SA: I was going to ask you about that actually. How does it feel watching them from the side-lines now?
MA: Oh look I’m gutted I’m not part of that programme, that squad because of what they’re achieving, but what I’m really pleased about is that I was part of the process, like there’s been many women before me who were part of the process that helped our Saracens Women’s Team at the time be successful.
So, I look at the team with fond memories and I’m just incredibly proud of what the first team, the second team, has achieved and what the men’s team are achieving. I remember when they were back down at Bramley Road, amateur set-up, and now they’re flourishing, winning European Premierships. You name it. So as a club, I’m so lucky that my first club was Saracens.
SA: People do move to different clubs and clubs change, but you’ve been loyal and they’ve been loyal to you too.
MA: As people say if you cut me, I’d bleed red and black just because it’s been a club that has supported me.
SA: You’re wearing red and black today!
MA: I just really wanted to get that across. But it’s been a club that’s supported me as a family. I’ve had some challenging times throughout my life and what was nice is that they’ve always been there and I’d like to think that even now as a supporter and as one of the old girls, as we say, if any of the young girls are experiencing challenges, or need help in terms of career, there’s many of us old girls who have very good jobs who can help support them. So I like to think we have that club attitude.
SA: And the success of the team at the moment, what do you think they are doing that’s different?
MA: At first, I’d say Saracens and Harlequins are probably two of the strongest teams in the Premiership with regards to what they do off the pitch. So, I would say, one, they’ve got an incredibly good connection with their men’s set-up. So if I look at Saracens, their relationship with the men’s organisation is perfect. Nigel Ray is a huge supporter of the women’s section. They’ve also got in terms of PR, they’re aligned there, and also in coaching, so I think sometimes Alex Anderson does a bit of work with the women’s set-up. So that’s incredible to have that level of support. And the second thing I’d say what the Saracens women have created is almost that level of I think you mentioned it with regards to me, club loyalty. So you’ve got players who genuinely want to be there. They’re not just coming in because of the profile, ‘cos they’re winning and then they’re dipping out and finding another good club. You’ve got players who have been at that club for probably quite a while now or have been there since we weren’t winning.
And Sonia Green is a good example, she’s been there since the club started I’d imagine. But it’s great to have players like that who are just proper club players. Not all of them play for England, yet we have got a good amount of England players, but they were Saracens before they became England players. So, it’s great to see the fact that the club’s got a very good loyal set-up.
And I think the other thing I’d probably say is just we’ve got a professional set-up in the sense that we’ve got our Director of Women’s Rugby, Laura Eddie who’s amazing at what she does, and then we’ve got a really good coaching foundation. Previously we had Robert Kane who was our head coach, now, Alex Osprey’s become the head coach, but he’s supported by three or four other really good coaches. So it’s that professional set-up even though it’s still effectively amateur, they’ve got this, it looks like a professional programme which is what I think appeals to people.
SA: You’re now a spectator, watching from the side, going back to that transition of your no longer being an international rugby player, as a persona, how was that for you in terms of that transition in 2014 to life?
MA: Incredibly hard. I’ll be open and honest, it’s still hard now when you think about it. So I guess I retired in 2014 from international rugby. I was working for a big charity called The Youth Sport Trust and I was an Athlete Mentor Manager there ,so what was good was I had a full-time job already. But what was tough was realising that the identity of being an athlete was sort of removed from me and I became 100% a working person. And I guess I didn’t really appreciate the challenges that would create.
SA: Had you been alerted to that before that happened?
MA: I knew of it really. Every athlete knows about it and it’s probably the biggest mistake. Always prepare yourself for life after. I even did my Master’s dissertation on The Life After Sport because it’s important to recognise that. Athletes know it’s coming, they don’t necessarily take ownership of it and I think that was the biggest thing for me. I probably wish I’d taken more ownership over that transitional period. By that, I mean, increasing my networks of key people in businesses and actually going out to meet them and identify opportunities that I could do to help build my skill level.
Doing qualifications is key, I think that’s always sort of part of developing your CV but I think to really make you stand out and be a little bit different it’s about building those relationships and that’s one thing I would say to people now, relationships are key. People don’t just hire you for what skills you have, people hire you because they like you and that’s what I do in my job now. When I’m hiring people, it’s actually, have I got that relationship with them? Would they work well in this team? Would they have a good relationship with other people in that team?
[0:26:25]
And people keep saying to me, it’s like a rowing boat. It’s about filling that rowing boat and making sure that they all work together to be successful. So, yeah, I think relationships are key. Building that network. So yes, sorry what I was trying to say is that I found it incredibly hard because the network that I did have, which was obviously coaches, performance psychologists and all of that, that had just gone. And I was on my own and I knew I was going to be on my own, but you don’t really realise how tough it’s going to be.
So I quickly built a new team. It was all about, I tried to find a new sport, so I tried to get back into athletics. I tried to identify a physio, I tried to identify a coach, I created my team, ‘Team Me’ I guess. But the reality was it just didn’t work. And over time I’ve now formulated a proper team that I feel works for me and the life that I live now. And it took a while to find the job that worked for me so I left the Youth Sport Trust, I went into media and I still do my media now.
But I realised that I can’t, and don’t want to, just live off media. I want to have one role that sort of gives me the stability and thankfully and through the relationships that I have with Vitality, I now am a director at the company. So that gives me that real level of stability and then the media almost supplements it and gives me a sporting focus. The work that I do with Vitality gives me a corporate, yeah, sense of purpose.
SA: And in terms of the media, you’re a Telegraph columnist now and being that first female sports pundit to comment on men’s rugby, how did that feel for you at the time? Did you feel you were breaking new ground there?
MA: Yeah, I have to admit I did feel like a weight on my shoulders when I first, God I was like, it was the first game, it was France v Rumania in the 2015 Men’s Rugby World Cup. And I just remember thinking, God I don’t want to make a mistake, that’s all it was. I know rugby, I know rugby inside out, but I just don’t want to make a mistake.
SA: It’s that extra pressure isn’t it? I was going to ask you abut Alex Scott. That actually females are doing an amazing job as pundits but so much more pressure on them because they’re females and people aren’t used to them. So you obviously felt that too, at the time?
MA: I did yeah, it was quite funny, look I didn’t make a big deal of it at the time, I didn’t write on twitter or anything like that, I was just doing this game and that was it basically. And it was so interesting the amount of comments I had post that. People just saw it as, that is very different, never seen a woman talk about rugby for a men’s World Cup.
SA: Was there negative?
MA: What I can remember was there were people were very unsure of it really because if I think about it, up to that point, there had not been any women. There had been women being reporters and had done an amazing job, like Gaby Logan, they’d always been there, but there had not been women in the position of saying your expertise on the sport. So for me to do it was quite ground-breaking and I was along Sean Fitzpatrick, former New Zealand Men’s Rugby Captain, so I’m in awe of these legends but what was great is that he was so relaxed and didn’t even see anything different.
He was like, we’re going to chat about rugby and that’s about it. So I felt incredibly relaxed and I absolutely loved the moment and did the rest of the World Cup and I was in the studio and pitch side all the way up until the men’s final. So there had never been, again a woman talking on the men’s game in that sense. So I absolutely love it and after that, and now, it’s part of what I do and I guess when I first started and probably similar to Alex Scott and many other women who are now breaking that barrier, when I first started I guess I got a lot of negative comments about being a woman, talking about men’s sport. And no one really criticised my content, it was more about just being a woman.
[0:30:30]
SA: We’ll criticise you for that because what you’re saying is really good.
MA: And actually now what’s good is I’d rather have a debate. Now I get people who would say, I agree or disagree. I’m like, that’s fine, I’d rather you agree or disagree with what I’m saying because then we can have a debate. You are talking about, I disagree that him or her ran that line, that’s fine, that’s a discussion and sport and anything we talk about like politics should be about a debate. But when you’re commenting and saying that I shouldn’t know something about the sport because of your gender, that’s when I find I’m like, what discussion or debate are we going to have there? Because this is pointless.
So now the comments are a bit more open and constructive and actually people are more positive and supportive. I don’t want people to support me just because I’m a woman, I want people to support me because actually what my content is correct.
SA: And I guess you should be proud, Nollie was at the weekend on Channel 4, almost setting that path for other women to go out and comment and be accepted in that way too.
MA: What’s great is that we’ve got, it’s just now growing. The only challenge that we have in the world of probably more media, is the fact that there’s less roles for women. So the challenge you have is there’s more women coming out and now finally getting opportunities and there’s less opportunities in terms of positions for all those people. If you look at men’s sport, there’s lots of men can get into various different roles where you find maybe on a sporting panel, there might be one woman.
SA: We can change that. We’re on a mission, aren’t we? We are half the population aren’t we, after all?
MA: We are and what’s great is there’s more of us out there so I am just really pleased that many of us are breaking the barrier, not just in rugby but in other sports like football, hockey, you name it, and cricket.
SA: Where do you see that going in the future? Do you feel more confident now to probably where you were when you first got that opportunity?
MA: Yeah, definitely, I see it growing. I see hopefully we’ll see more women, not just media roles as in in front of the camera but see more of them behind the camera - producers, directors, camera women. People don’t recognise that there’s not a lot of women out there holding the cameras as well and every time I see a couple, I think, yes, you keep going! We want more of you out there.
SA: It’s role modelling isn’t it? It’s what we talked about in sport, it’s actually the more that people see it and see it as a goal and something they could do in the future.
[0:32:57]
MA: Yeah, that’s what I hope to see in the future. So that’s my goal. I think my future goal is that I’ll probably step away from media in the future but be more of a leader in terms of my goal and my dream is to be, hopefully, the next Sally Munday. I want to be a CEO of a sporting organisation and a woman of colour in that position because obviously if I look at diversity, there’s not that much of that. And I want to be one of those women who are flying the flag and doing some amazing stuff and who knows, one day be the President or the CEO of the RFU, that would be absolutely amazing. Yeah, so that’s where my current aspirations and goals are. I look at Sue Day, for example, CFO for the RFU which is fantastic.
And I want to be in a position where I can be on that, who knows one day, exec team and be fronting that up. So yeah, so that’s what I’m currently working towards right now and media is great, because it allows you to understand the game from a different perspective but also maintain that profile.
SA: So in terms of, I guess the girls got their professional contracts this year, which is fantastic news. How did you feel about that looking back? Would you have liked that to have been a full-time professional athlete? Or actually would that have made the transition out of sport even harder, ‘cos you wouldn’t have had a career path running alongside?
MA: It’s such an interesting question because if I was in the sport now, I would say, yes I would love to have had a professional contract because I know what it was like to try and balance up one job and try and be the best that I could be in that professional job. And at the same time try and develop my skills and ability to be the best I can be as an athlete. So if I was still in the sport, I’d say, oh my God, I wish I had the professional contract.
Now I’m out of the sport, I’d probably say, I guess, it’s important to an extent that athletes are able to develop their career whilst being an athlete and I guess the challenge we have in having a professional contract is athletes unfortunately are unable to do that or maybe lose sight of that. So I guess I’ve always fought for professional contracts for the female athletes because it’s the right thing to do, if the men have got it, the women should have it.
I will never stop fighting for that and what’s great is that the women have got that, or the England women have got it, we still need across the world, other women to get it. I guess what I want though is to make sure that as part of their contracts and as part of their development, they are improving and building their career. Because if we look at the men’s set-up, a lot of them are getting professional contracts, younger and younger and younger.
And the women, at the moment, they’re getting it slightly a little bit later in their career but what’s going to happen is as women’s rugby gets more professional, you’ll start to see more women get contracts at a younger age and their career, or their education might not have developed at that time. So I think it’s really important that we are supporting our athletes who become professional to develop their career, to develop their skills and their abilities. So when they do transition out, because when they come out all of those women who have had professional careers, are going to have the same level of expertise and opportunities become less and less so.
SA: A fantastic point, so important for the future of sport.
MA: Yes and it’s also a duty of care. We need to be protecting our athletes so that when they do transition over, that we are giving them skills that they can fit into the reality of civilian life! Because civilian life looks at athletes different to someone who’s been in that position – let’s say, a HR Director – they’ve been in that position for what, 10/15 years? An athlete cannot just walk into that role unless they’ve got that expertise, so we need to be able to help support them to get those skills.
SA: Girls coming through, playing rugby now and so on, what advice would you give you somebody that’s where you were, you met Lisa Burgess, or a bit further on, what would be the couple of key points you might say to someone on their career path now, getting started?
[0:36:52]
MA: I would say, one, be curious. You do not know everything, so open your mind to learning. So, for me, when I was, I guess that youngster trying to get into the sport or developing in the sport, I tapped into the expertise and the knowledge of those senior players who were currently there. I tapped into the knowledge of the coaches. I would take ownership of my own development. I did not let the coaches dictate my learning. I would make contact with the coaches and say, right, I need to work on this, can you come and see me? In terms of my England coaches. I went and observed men’s and women’s teams and their coaching as well.
I would throw myself into environments that were a little bit uncomfortable. I say it all the time, it’s about being comfortable being uncomfortable. So I would stretch myself on a regular basis. So when I was on the pitch it was about being the best version of me. Not just being an okay player.
SA: Comfortable and knowing what you can do.
MA: And I still remember to this day my old England coach, Geoff Richards who was an Australian and a really good mindset he had, he was like, it’s not about being the best player in England, it’s about being the best player in the world. And that’s how I guess I approach my life today. It’s not about being a good leader in this country or a good leader in the company that you’re in, it’s about being the best leader, like how are you going to be the best leader?
So yeah, what I would say to a young person getting into sport is, be curious, learn from everyone, stretch yourself and challenge yourself on a regular basis. I would also say, set your goals, I think that’s very key. I live by that now. I always have goals and what I’m working towards and I call them ‘small wins.’ Make sure you have those little wins where you are like, awesome, I achieved that this week and you just feel good about yourself. So, have your medium, your long-term goals and have your small wins, where you can really feel great about yourself.
I would also say, two other things. Embrace failure. That’s massive. It’s okay to fail. You learn from it, it’s your best learning tool. And then I would say, also, celebrate success. So look back on all the things that you’ve done and really acknowledge them because sometimes I think we don’t think about …
SA: We’re so busy moving on to the next thing aren’t we?
MA: And I guess, one more thing, I’d probably say is identify your team You. So surround yourself with people who are going to help you be successful.
SA: I love that you said that earlier. I’d never thought of that as a concept almost.
MA: I think everyone’s got to have it, not just as an athlete or a young person, team You. People who basically want to invest in making you better. So that could be your parents, it could be a teacher, a member of staff, anyone who is basically willing to help you be successful.
SA: The podcast is called The Gamechangers, so extraordinary trailblazing women in sport. What do you feel your legacy will be, looking forward? You’ve mentioned this a little bit. Is it about your playing career or do you feel ... I feel I know the answer to this now, there’s lots more to come in the future?
[0:39:43]
MA: Yeah, I’m hoping it’s going to be the next chapter really. I think what’s quite interesting now, people don’t see me as a rugby player, they see me as an influential leader, which is what I want to be. I played rugby, I was really good at it, I tackled really hard, I think that’s what people generally think of me when they think of my sport and that’s awesome. But now I need to start paving the way for another impact on the world and I like to think that is being that leader who is creating change to an extent but also having the impact on other people’s lives.
I want to make sure that I can hopefully help others and them be successful. Them exceed what I’ve achieved, and I’m not just saying for women and girls, I mean boys and men. One of the young people who still stays strong to me in my life is a guy called Wayne Istral. I had an impact on him when I was a mentor working for the Youth Sport Trust and now he goes out and delivers talks about the change in his life and he’s impacting many others.
SA: It’s that ripple effect if you’ve impacted one …
MA: Exactly, and that’s what I want life to be, I want people to exceed me, I want people to achieve more than what I’ve achieved because they were inspired by what I did. So rugby was a great part of my life, it’s a chapter that I sort of have to close because otherwise you keep looking back, you know. And now I’m thinking about my next path and I’m currently studying. I’m doing an MBA - it’s basically called an MBA for CEOs in sporting organisations so it’s around leadership.
SA: Where is that?
MA: It’s at the University of Salford. So I am hoping to complete that and that’s building, again, my skills and my repertoire of tools I guess to be able to fit in to a position hopefully in the future.
SA: What a truly inspiring human being Maggie is. So passionate about her sport. Generous with her advice and time and astute about the impact she could make in the future. There’s no question that she will be a hugely influential leader.