Rachel Pavlou: Ensuring women's football is truly a sport 'For All'
Sue Anstiss
Hello and welcome to The Game Changers. I'm Sue Anstiss and this is the podcast where you'll hear from trailblazing women in sport. What can we learn from their journeys as we explore some of the key issues around equality in sport and beyond?
I'd like to start with a big thank you to our partners Sport England, who support the Game Changers Podcast through a National Lottery Award.
My guest today was described as the most selfless person in women's football by former England coach and a previous guest on this podcast, Hope Powell. While I asked on social media for suggestions for future guests on the Game Changers, this unsung hero of women's football receive the most recommendations from people.
Rachel Pavlou has over 30 years of sports development experience specializing in the development of women's football at the FA for almost 25.
Rachel is currently the FA Women's Development Manager specializing in diversity and inclusion. Her main areas of responsibility are to develop football opportunities for females in underrepresented communities.
She's also a designated expert in women's football development at FIFA and a trustee at the Aston Villa FC Foundation. Rachel's been a key member in the implementation of the Barclays FA Women's Super League and has managed participation and talent development programs along with heading up research into mixed football and initiating the Kickoff Your Career campaign.
Rachel continues to be an integral part of the FA’s work through her experience working both at the domestic and international level of the women's game.
Rachel, I often reflect on defining moments in these podcasts, a time in our lives when things change forever. And for you, that defining moment in football came very early. So can you tell us about your experience of a game as a young girl?
Rachel Pavlou
I absolutely loved football when I was younger. I played with the boys in the playground. I played with my brother and, and the three boys next door, the neighbors all the time, and got the opportunity to try out for the school team. Got on the pitch, played my game, got off the pitch on the board, Rachel Pavlou you're on, you're on there, We want you to play for the team. And literally before the day was out, I saw my mom and dad walking up to the school and I, they lived in, we lived in the road of the school and I was like, What's going on? They walked into the headmaster's office. I was like, Oh my goodness, You know, is he gonna talk about how brilliant I was at football, you know, this is just brilliant, he’d never asked to come bring my parents up before and he said to my parents, over my dead body, Will a girl ever play football for my school? Can you please encourage her to go and play girl sports? Obviously my parents told me that and I just couldn't believe it and I still can't believe it. Although speaking to lots of women of my age, it happened to so many of us. Yes, so it defined me because it defined me in the way that I couldn't believe that my gender was going to have an effect on the rest of my life. I couldn't believe that my brother who didn't like football that much was gonna have lots of opportunities and I wasn't it meant that actually I ended up playing at the sports, which I do not regret because I love my tennis and hockey life and all that happened, but there was always that sadness inside me that I couldn't play the sport that I loved more than anything.
Sue Anstiss
And do you think there might be head teachers today that would still have views of that kind or is that very much a historical feeling? I mean, it's so strong to say over my dead body will she play for the boys team?
Rachel Pavlou
Well, it was in the 1970s, so don't forget that we hadn't long come out of the ban. I have to believe that, uh, that the majority of, head teachers, school teachers, you know, all the, all the work that we are doing on equal access absolutely appreciate that girls should have opportunities to do all kinds of sports. And the only stumbling block for a lot of them will be resources and, and pitches and staff to be able to achieve that. And that's obviously what we are trying to do at the FA to support them with our partnership with Barclays. So, I get that, there's probably difficulties but I don't think there's probably that level of, um, beliefs that there were certainly when I was, when I was growing up.
Sue Anstiss(
It's interesting, isn't it, and I think I explore this too, is, in my, my own mind is actually without feeling like you be, can completely understand where men like that were coming from. But that was what society had told them, what they believed. They were almost protecting girls because they were worried about our ability to play sport or that kind. I wonder from a football perspective, what was it that you loved at the time? And, and I, it's great that you got on to play hockey and tennis and so on, but what was it specifically about football that drew you to the game,
Rachel Pavlou (06:58):
I suppose because it was so easy to play, wasn't it? this is lovely to think this, but I grew up where it used to go through the fence at the bottom of my garden and I was on a football pitch. We had Moore Green football club at the back of our garden and although we weren't supposed to go up there cause it was private property, they weren't there all the time. So me and my brother and the neighbors next door, we were up there all the time playing football 3 V 2 all the time you just needed the ball that used to come over the fence from the football club that we used to take <laugh>. I remember, I've gotta tell you this cause it's really funny , obviously it was called Jif. It wasn't Cif at the time. And I spent this one day getting rid of moore green football club off the ball and writing Pav all over it. And you can still see MGFC for the rest of the time that I had that ball, but it was so special to me because it was the best caser I'd ever seen in my life. And so I just loved the fact that we were outside, we were having fun. No one told us what we had to do. And my dad was amazing, he built a slabbed area at the top of the garden for the neighbors and my brother and I to play on when it was wet, when we couldn't go up to the fields. we played headers and volleys and keepy uppies on there and we, we'd spend hours, swapping panini sticker book.
I remember Argentina 78 and Spain 82 because I was filling those books and then I was going to villa matches as a fan. Um, and, and that stayed with me. I still go, I'm a season ticket holder. So it, it was just such a part of my life and I think back and I think wow, I was still playing, I was still having fun doing it, but I was told you can't play competitively. That's the end of it. And I just, I just believed it. And I didn't actually play competitively until I was in my early twenties. And after I'd left my university, cause I actually found that in my first job there was Aston Villa's women's team training in, in where I was working. And I was like, who are these women? And when I found out is Aston Villa's women's team, I was like, Oh my goodness, can I come and play please? I've always wanted to. So, you know, waiting to your twenties to play your first competitive football match, you can imagine how happy I was, but also so sad that I'd missed out on all those years of, of being able to, to learn the sport and be part of it.
Sue Anstiss
Yeah. That it is so sad, isn't it? That whole what if, might have been different, you know, and you don't strike me as the kind type of person that looks back in a negative sense, but actually what might have been if you had had that access to, I love that you've already told us, you’d be tresspassing and stealing balls. That's fabulous. I like that.
Rachel Pavlou
Please can we be careful with the word steal. Can we say that
Sue Anstiss
Acquiring!
Rachel Pavlou
I acquired it! Because it came over the fence and we he used to do this thing you know, ‘losers weepers’. Do you know what I mean?
Sue Anstiss
<laugh>? Absolutely, absolutely. And it was put to very good use. I'm sure it was more utilised by you two. You obviously love playing and I, you can feel that passion from you, but did you always want to work in sport? Was that an option you considered even as a young person?
Rachel Pavlou
Yeah, absolutely. I knew as I got to secondary school and I met my PE teacher who is just my role model and the most wonderful person, I wanted to be her and all the way through secondary school, that was what I was gonna do. I was gonna be a PE teacher. And then when I got to the point where I was applying for, my colleges and polys and unis, et cetera, the neighbor next door who was the father of these three boys I spent my whole life playing football with, he actually said to me, Did you know that you could do three years of a sports course and a year's PGC and you don't have to do completely four years of a =PE course? He said, And that might give you other options. He said, But they've only just started.
He said, So you've got to take a little bit of a punt on this. So me being someone who's always likes to do things right, and I went to go and see the sports courses and I went to see the PE colleges and I fell in love with IM Marsh for PE and I fell in love with Sheffield City Polytechnic for recreation management and I had to make a choice. And in the end I knew that, well I got nothing to lose. I did three years and one year it was still four years and I could still be a PE teacher, so why not go and try this? So I had the most wonderful three years at Sheffield City Polytechnic. And interestingly, three of our lecturers were Katie Donovan, Celia Breckenridge, and Nicky Fuller. Oh. And at the time I didn't know who they were cause I was 18 years old.
But looking back, you know, they were people who worked in sports as, as women successfully. And so for me, going on that course, I was surrounded by women who told us that working in the sports industry was normal. And that was amazing for me because I'd, I'd kind of always thought, Well, I'm not sure whether this is gonna be something for me and I'm gonna be able to get in here. But it was a fantastic course. I thoroughly enjoyed it. And actually I didn't do my fourth year and I ended up going to sports development and it was the best thing I ever did.
Sue Anstiss
We are quite similar here ‘cause my fantastic PE teacher Miss Bamber, what was your PE teacher's name by the way, let’s give her a shout out?
Rachel Pavlou
Miss Cooney.
Sue Anstiss
Miss Cooney, fabulous. but almost that inspired me to wanna go and teach PE. And so at what moment, cause obviously I similarly studied, there was a time when I thought, actually I don't want to teach anymore. So do you remember, is there a seminal moment or at some point just being surrounded by those women that you decided actually there was an opportunity for you that wasn't as a PE teacher, do you think?
Rachel Pavlou
Well, I think it was actually several things that happened. Firstly, I left university in debt as a lot of people did. I also desperately wanted to have my own rented accommodation. I didn't wanna come out of university of being there three years and not, um, being in my own space and, and, and doing my own thing. Even though my parents are just wonderful. And everybody were like, Why wouldn't you wanna live with your parents? They're brilliant and they are. But I wanted all of that and, and I think therefore I, I realised that oh, I could get a job and, and have everything I want. And actually if I did all my coaching courses, I could teach young people in my own time, doing all the sports that I love and I wouldn't have to do the sports. I didn't, cause I hated dance and gym and I still hate dance and gym so I knew there would be sports that I just wouldn't want to teach and I always wanted to be able to give my very best and I thought, well, I'm not gonna be very good at them. And then there was obviously you had to do the subject, like the academic subjects. I wasn't too keen on that either. So I was saying to myself, I've got this great best of both worlds here. Go and do your coaching courses, do the sports you like of an evening and a weekend and then do the job with sports development. And I think that's actually how it came to it all.
Sue Anstiss
And, and where were you doing sports development? Is that when you were at, Solihull College? Is that how you started out?
Rachel Pavlou
I actually, my first job was for 18 months at the National Indoor Arena in Birmingham had just opened and it had a community sports hall and it, it wanted, it had six jobs advertised, as community sports officers and about something ridiculous, like 12,000 people for these jobs. And I got one of them along with another girl who happened to also be at Sheffield City Polytechnic on RecMan a year above me. What's the chances of that? And I had a fantastic introduction to what sports development was like by working in sports center. And quickly, there was a role that went up, working at Solihull College as a student liaison officer for sport. And luckily one of my mom and dad's friends passed this on to me and said, This would be perfect for you.
And I loved working with 16 to 19 year olds, cause I wasn't much older than that and I loved that age group. So I took the job and luckily, it developed into a full-time sports development officer's job. And the principal there, Colin Flynn, absolutely supported everything I wanted to do to, to make that college the best it could be in women's sport. I walked in the door with only a netball team and I walked out the door with every single sport that British colleges offered at the national championships. And we had girls enter every single competition and every single sports team because I wanted everybody to be able to have the opportunities to play the sport that they wanted. And it was a fantastic introduction to sports development for sure. And it gave me the, all the tools I needed to eventually get the job at the, at the FA
Sue Anstiss
Fantastic. And it was at that time when you were sports development officer at Solihull College that you attended your UEFA B license with Hope Powell I believe. How was that experience for you?
Rachel Pavlou
Oh wow. Can you imagine walked in, there's Hope Powell, there's Sian Williams and Rachel Pavlou’s there. What is all that about? I was really lucky cause in a very short space of time I got to do my junior team managers course, my prelim and my UEFA B all female only, which at that time was unheard of. And the guy who took my managers and prelim was a guy called Tom Stack and he absolutely encouraged me to volunteer in women's football and asked me to become the Birmingham County FA volunteer. He induced me to Donna McKiver and Kelly Simmons at the FA and said, this girl, you've gotta get her involved in volunteering. Which, which I did. And that gave me that position on that UEFA B course because I was doing everything. I was coaching my students, I was coaching, a women's team in the Midlands Combinations division.
You know, I was absolutely involved in a, everything in women's football, but my college allowed me to do so much of it in my, in their time as well because I was helping developing students, I was helping the local schools, I was doing all sorts of things. So I turned upon this UEFA B course feeling the fraud because obviously Hope. And Sian just was like, Oh my goodness, the tutors was Ted Copeland, who was England manager and Graham Keely his assistant. And I was like, this is just absolutely off its head. And for a whole week I absolutely loved it. You know, it was just an, a wonderful experience of being with different women all from different backgrounds, all having different stories to tell about their journeys. And we all just really bonded and it was really, really special. Uh, and I am a massive advocate of female only courses for women who want that and I always will be because I know that those three courses were the best thing that I could ever do.
Sue Anstiss
How old were you then?
Rachel Pavlou
, so it was 1998, so I was, 28.
Sue Anstiss
And was elite coaching a pathway that you considered seriously? So you were obviously doing huge amounts in the community and in the college too, but did you look at the likes of Hope and others and think, actually there's an opportunity I I'd like to take that more seriously in terms of, uh, the elite level.
Rachel Pavlou
Well, Let me tell you a little the story cause it's, I think it's funny. Hope doesn't think it's funny at all. But we went on this UEFA B course and at the end of the course, we both got a letter and Hope's letter said, congratulations, you'll be starting in June, 1998 at the football association as the head coach of England women. And I got the letter, it said, Congratulations, you'll be starting at the FA in 19, in June, 1998, eight as the regional director of women's football in the Northwest and the West Midlands. And I always used to say to her that the letters got mixed up because I was by far the better coach that week. And the only reason she got that job was because she was an ex-player. And I tell that story all the time, and she always rolls her eyes and she always goes, you know, what are you on?
Um, but I'll be really honest about that course I did think I held my own, I did think I did really well on the course, but I was so intimidated by the fact that I hadn't had the lived experience of playing football. and I also knew that if I'd gone on a male course, I would've felt even more intimidated. So I felt intimidated with the women, let alone the men. So I was really quite angry about the fact that I hadn't got all of that knowledge and experience that all those other people would've had to take those elite teams. But luckily it, it was such a short lived anger because by getting the job at the FA as regional director, it was 24 /7 working on that job. And I had to make a decision very quickly because I don't do anything if I can't give it a hundred percent. I had to give up my coaching. Um, and actually I don't regret it because I've been able to help more people by going into sports development than I ever could have done as a coach. And although it, it would've been lovely to think about doing it to it a higher level. My passion is, is grassroots and my passion is supporting everybody to be able to get involved in the game. And it was the right decision for sure.
Sue Anstiss
And the FA’s obviously come a long way since you joined back in 98, and it's lovely to hear you calling out and celebrating those men, the male allies that have kinda helped you on that route. But, can you take us back there and tell us a little bit about the attitude to the women's game, in 98 at the FA and and in men's football generally?
Rachel Pavlou
Yeah, I can only tell you how I felt because that is me. And I felt that all the time. I was getting men coming up to me and saying that I and my colleagues were taking money out of the men's game to, to prop up the girls' game and what, you know, what, what a waste of money. And it was really hard to hear that constantly. It wasn't as if it was one person that was not very nice. There was little undertones of that all the time, and especially you should be grateful for the money that you've got. So it was really frustrating at the beginning. But what was amazing was two things. One, I had a group of colleagues around me where we just supported each other and they were, you know, Kelly, Donna mackive, Lucy Wellings, Ros Potts, Julie Lewis, Tessa Haywood, Hope Powell.
We were all full time for the first time at the FA a group of us. And we really looked after each other and we were really supported each other and therefore we felt really strong and because actually we were all pretty good strategic thinkers, we came up with plans that others could not help but look at and say, Do you know what, they're actually doing a really good job with the funding that they've got. And it inspired us to get money from outside of the fa So we did at those beginnings of our development years, get a lot of money from Sport England who were really helping us. And I think we changed hearts and minds because we were trying so hard. We were working strategically, we were going to other funders. We weren't always relying on FA money and we did change, we did change people's opinions.
And isn't it ironic that every one of those women that I've just talked about, including Sue Hoff, who was the first female coordinator at the FA, nearly all of us are still at the FA or were working in women's football still. So I think that that has, you know, that shows the bonds that we, we had between us and how we looked after, um, our, all of our health as well as obviously supporting us on all the programs that we had to do, et cetera. But it was a, it was a really special time. And those, and those women will always be very special in my life for, for what we've achieved together.
Sue Anstiss
And it shows how brilliant those women are as well too, in terms of all that was achieved. I really like your reflecting on, uh, assessing funding from other places too. And I think I see that a bit now with the commercial investment and sponsorship of people coming in that, that aren't already in the men's game. I think that's a really important, component too, isn't it? And it is clearly it's taken its time. But looking back at that time, did you ever anticipate things could change in the way they have and be where they are now?
Rachel Pavlou
We dreamed it,we were driven to achieve it, but did we ever think it would all happen to where we are today? I think I have to be honest and say, I just didn't think we'd ever be able to be where we are today. I mean, the amount of people that are employed to work in women's football, not just in the FA but in all of the football bodies, in the clubs, in the community programs. It's just amazing. You know, we were, we were a handful of women that were paid and think back just before us, there was the women's FA that were all volunteers that were amazing. You know, the fact that people have a career in women's football now on both on the pitch and off the pitch and around it, it's just unbelievable. And that's possibly out of everything that we've ever achieved, that's the thing I'm so excited about because if I could have dreamed as a young girl knowing that not only could I play, but I could officiate, I could volunteer, I could coach, but actually I could get a paid salary to, to work in development, or any of the jobs that we have, physio, doctor, you know, I just wouldn't have ever believed it. So to see where we are today, the success on the pitch, but for me more importantly, the success off the pitch has just been amazing. And I, I have to pinch myself, I still pinch myself that we won in the summer. You know, I still sometimes wake up and go, Oh, did we win <laugh>? And then I come into my office and obviously I've people who know me now, I've got lots of memorandum in my office and I, it just reminds me, yes, I've of course we've won. Cause look at all what I've got in here <laugh>,
Sue Anstiss(23:31):
I love that. You've obviously highlighted those amazing women that have been part of that whole journey within the fa but how much did Sue Campbell's arrival also impact that seismic shift that we've seen, especially in the last five years?
Rachel Pavlou
Ah! Sue just took women's football to the next level. You know, abs I will always credit her the taking to the next level because she came in with such gravitas and, and, and respect that everything she said people listened to, and she had so many contacts in, in commercial areas, in obviously in different sports. Everything she brought to the party was just amazing. And, you know, she came in to see everybody who worked in women's football cause there wasn't many of us. And, and talked to us about all the things that we'd always wanted to do over the years. She said to me, she said, What is the one thing that you've wanted to do more than anything else? And I said, I've always wanted to run mini soccer centers for young girls where they have their own little center and they don't have to play with boys between the ages of five to 11.
And she just said, just go and give it a go. I'll give you some money. Just go and give it a go. And to have that support from someone who I respected so much who I'd gone to sports development conferences all my life, just to hear her speak was so empowering and I felt so valued. And, and, and actually what I did with that was, was Wildcats. Um, and, and I was able to develop a Wildcats program because of her support and her help and belief in me that I knew what I was talking about and it's a lovely story because Wildcats actually, started in the 1990s when I was at Solihull college and I did a pilot because Kelly and, and Donna asked me if I would do a pilot on a mini soccer project. And I asked my principal if I could do it. He agreed. We went into schools with the students and did assemblies, we did girls football tournaments and then we gave every girl a flyer to say, Come every Sunday to solihull college you're gonna have some fun. And, and the first session we had over 30 girls turn up and it just got bigger and bigger. And this was in the 1990s and it worked perfectly. And I remember going into my changing room cause that's where my office was, it was a changing room and sending a fax to, to Kelly Simmons and Donna McKiver at Lancaster Gate to say that this mini soccer center is unbelievable and it's absolutely brilliant and it's working. Um, but sadly, like so many things that we really wanted to do at the FA we had to prioritize and we could never do the mini soccer concept. But the legacy of that was that Karen Carney was on there at the age of 10 and Sarah Westwood, who is now the Birmingham City General Manager, she was on there as well.
So some girls who were on that center have stayed in my life and it was a brilliant time. The students went on to do coaching courses and some of them are still involved in football to this day. Uh, we ended up having a club from it, Solihull Borough Girls was set up because I needed to walk away and join the FA So we wanted to make it sustainable and everything about that project stayed in my head for so many years, but we just didn't have the capacity to do it. And Sue saying, you know, what, what would you like to do? And being able to develop, the concept and, and it becoming as Wildcats, as I said, just just as something that's really personal to me. And it's really interesting cause people every week talk to me about Wildcats and have to be really careful not to talk about it because, you know, it's not about me, but I do feel so invested in a program that I wanted to happen for so long. And obviously the name Cats, being in a football program was always something I wanted to achieve. So I kind of did that as well, <laugh>.
Sue Anstiss
I love that. I love that. you were also involved in the development of the Women's Super League, over 10 years ago, and I think I've heard you say you kinda worked on it in your spare time <laugh>. Um, but, but how proud do you feel now to see it evolving and becoming the best league in the world?
Rachel Pavlou
Yeah, and I say that tongue in cheek because obviously the FA did of course give us time to do it, but we did have to work evenings and weekends to make it happen because it wasn't our full-time jobs. And there was a group of, of people, predominantly women in the association, you know, Hope Powell, Kelly Simmons, Mary Guest who worked in legal, Sally Horrocks who was a consultant, Zoe Wishman and Morag Taylor from the marketing team, Tessa Baker who works on the still on the WSL and I'm sure there was others that we were, we were a really tightknit group, and we worked ridiculously to, to make it happen. So again, invested in something that now has been so successful makes you really proud and it was a really hard, uh, project to, to encourage the clubs to go from what they had to where we were going to be because it meant that we had to leave some of the clubs behind at that time. And so there was a lot of sadness from some of the existing clubs who really wanted to do this. But, you know, we had to have them as sustainable entities because we knew what we were going to ask them was to become semi-pro. You know, I'd go a lot. I'd go and watch it, obviously watch it on the fa player and on the television. I love the Women's Highlight Show. You know, I, I'm, I'm a fan as well as someone who's worked on it and I can't, I can't say how proud I am to watch the level of football that's played every single week by those amazing players. Um, and to know that both Arsenal and Chelsea won this week in France, is massive because that's probably the biggest criticism we get is, well you've got a fantastic league, but you never win the Champions League and you haven't since 2007 with Arsenal when, when we all went to Umier and saw that amazing match. so that's possibly the biggest criticism of us and, and if that's gonna happen, you know, if our teams can compete in the Champions League and have the best league because of the competitiveness, the fact that I never know each week who's gonna beat somebody cause you think there's a possibility that someone's going to do that, you know, it's just, it is just brilliant.
Sue Anstiss
Fabulous. And I really like that you, uh, call out and name those women that have been involved in the past. I do think that's so important, isn't it? We get sometimes caught up with the here and now and the growth of, but actually it's really, really important that we recognize, the women. And I love that, you know, the women whose shoulders we stand upon now, but it is really important that it was a different, very different times and hard times too, in terms of getting us to where we are
Rachel Pavlou
And isn't it lovely that so many of them are still involved and, and you know, you take the marks of Patricia Gregory who without her, the women's FA wouldn't have been where it was. Patricia and I probably talk more than anybody else. I probably talked to her two times a week. We message each other nearly every day. There is always something that Patricia is pushing and wants to be recognised. you know, the, the women that were out there, the women that were the pioneers of, of the game and, and not just them, you know, we're talking about the Manchester Corinthians and the British Independents and the Dick Kerr ladies and Foden's, all those that were in the banned time and, and during the war time, I don't want anyone to ever forget the journey that women's football has been on because that's what's made us a football family.
And don't I just love that when the girls won in the summer, every one of them talked about the people that came before them, the players that came before them, the administrators, the development offices, the coaches, everyone felt they were part of it. And there was a moment when I, I didn't quite believe we'd won, but, and I sat there and I couldn't help thinking about everybody I'd ever worked with and all that they'd done for us. And we talked today about the male allies, all those male allies that put themselves out there when they were jeered and laughted at to get involved in women's football with us and take us on the journey that we've been today. So while I'm around, we are not gonna stop talking about the history and shouting out people's names because it's never about one person. It's about everybody working together. And that's what the strength of, of women's football has been, is we've had so many people doing that with us.
Sue Anstiss
Fantastic, clearly the Magnificent Euroes this summer put women in sport high on the agenda with incredible crowds and record viewing figures, but much was also happening behind the scenes in terms of the legacy of the tournament. I know you've been really involved there, so can you just give us a little summary of the work that went on there?
Rachel Pavlou
Oh, the legacy work was just absolutely fantastic. Every single host city had a legacy group and every single host city had a legacy plan. And that plan was to take our national women's football strategy and escalate it in their host city area. So from participation at every level of every age of a woman and girl all the way into coaching and officiating into talents, every aspect of women's football in that strategy was escalated in those host cities. And what was so special was that every one of those groups had all of the key partners in that city, whether it was the, the councils, the football clubs, and not just the football clubs that were hosting the matches, the football clubs that had foundations and community programs around that. The county FAs, the education partners, you know, you name it, those host cities got together.
And even though we were all sad that we had to postpone the event for one year, it was actually the best thing that could ever happen for the legacy part of the program because it meant that we had more time to, deliver all of those amazing projects and programs that we, we did and I'm sure that a lot of people will have le have seen the UEFA and FA report that came out recently that just detailed the most amazing things that happened, the growth in participation, the growth in numbers of coaches, volunteers and referees, and how are those host cities are sharing their good practice now with everybody to say, when focused and when you can all work together collectively, look what can be achieved with the power of the game. and I loved the fact that I was involved in that and I was particularly involved because, um, Sport England kindly funded us to employ seven recreational officers for women's football.
They agreed with us that there was this untapped market of what we all call the missed generation of women. Those that just were not encouraged to play officiate, get involved in our game. And this was our chance to put in programs and support, in those host cities, with full-time officers who could go out and talk to women and have the focus to talk to women about what do you want from football? And what's been amazing about those seven officers and what they've achieved is by having the time to go and speak to people, they have really helped our diversity of the game because they've gone in and said, Right, what can we do to help you?
And we've got projects that are in mosques, uh, in temples, in churches. Uh, we've got projects that help women with dementia, with disabilities. LGBTQ plus community festivals, refugee and asylum seeker football projects because we've gone to the local people and said, we need to take football where women are, uh, which is a quote from Sarah Harney in Sheffield who absolutely advocates that we just go in and say, What do you want from us? And what can we do? And what we didn't expect to happen is how many of these women that got involved in the participation programs that we put on, whether it was walking, whether it was fives, whether it was soccercize, turning around to us and saying, Right, we are loving this. Can we now volunteer? Now, I wanted that to happen one day, but I didn't expect it to happen as quickly as it did.
And there's this influx of females that just said, Well, no one's ever told us that we could help. We've never felt that football was for us. We never felt that we were part of your community. But by going and talking to women and giving them the space to tell us what they wanted, where they wanted it, and us going to them, it's brought this new workforce that is just awesome. And Sport England have been so happy with this project that they've now funded these seven offices for a lot longer. And we are not just gonna go into the host cities, we're gonna go around into other cities, in those county football associations and do more
Sue Anstiss(37:19):
That's brilliant. kind of developing the future pathway, uh, within the sport too, isn't it? And it is. Fantastic. I was gonna ask you about the kind of diversity inclusion role that falls within your remit too. Clearly in the media there was a little bit of, not negativity, but with the Lionnesses is this summer and, and when you looked at the team, it was a mainly white team playing there, so not so many people from underrepresented communities. How do you feel the work that's now happening in terms of that outreach and community can feed up and, and make, um, our national team more diverse in the future too?
Rachel Pavlou
It was obviously talks about a lot of the summer, quite rightly and for those that know about our strategic plan that we wrote in 2020, we called it out then that we needed to do more. And we weren't happy with the, with the diversity of all of our game. You know, I wear a badge that says football for all, you know, and, and we needed to make sure that we did more. And I'm really excited by what's happening at this moment in time because we now have more talent centers than we've ever had before, which are reaching areas of the country that we haven't been able to get to before because of support from the Premier League and their funding
And our, talent centers have done an amazing job of trying to be more professional, extend from one night a week to three, go into better facilities. But by making that professionalization, it's meant that a lot of parents and girls have lost the accessibility to those centers. So this new project with the Premier League has meant we've been able to open loads more opportunities for girls to be able to attend, particularly in high populated areas. At the same time, we have, started to Discover my Talent, which is a referral service, which basically means that any girl does not have to leave where she is. So if she loves playing in the cages behind her house, if she loves playing with the boys in the projects that she's on, we don't necessarily have to ask her to leave.
We are asking her parents or her community coach or her friends to go onto the England website, uh, look at the, attributes of an England player and say, I'm gonna refer that girl to you and we are gonna look at them and listen to them. And interestingly, just one year of Discover my Talent, over 1600 girls came to us that we didn't even know anything about. Wow. And already 200, over 200 of them are in talent centres because they've been able to access something locally. So the Discover my Talent, the new talent centers that are in so many more places, coupled with two more important points. One, the work that we're doing in grassroots football to ensure that every young girl wherever they live, have an opportunity to be involved in Wildcats and other projects that we do with working with the English Football League trust to go into inner city areas with Wildcats. We're working with the, uh, football Beyond Borders to make sure that we go and work with, with girls from both black and Asian communities in, in developing the game. We've got massive examples. And then the third big thing is how we're developing coaches and leaders from communities who have lived experiences of young girls and that those girls look up to and they recognize in themselves and we say see it to believe it. You know, we are investing in those women to become part of our future workforce. And we've got a fantastic amount of regional coach development managers that are specifically employed to support women and, people from diverse and inclusive backgrounds. And we are getting double support because those guys are going in, they're running female only courses, networking opportunities, mentoring programs, giving out bursaries. And we're seeing an increase in, in women from all communities, who have probably historically felt that they weren't involved in the game having those opportunities.
And if anybody goes on the England football website and looks at the boot room, there are some awesome case studies of women from all communities talking about how this first opportunity to feel that we are coming to them, we're asking for their support and being involved is giving them the confidence to get involved in the game in their local communities. So some brilliant work, but please let me make it really clear. We have so much more to do, but I'm, I'm proud that it's not just the FA it's the PFA, it's the premier league, it's the ELT, the English football league trust, football foundation. It's, it's all the equity partners in sport, people are all stepping up the county FAs, the community programs I can go on, but everyone is stepping up because we all appreciate and understand absolutely a hundred percent that this is a priority.
Sue Anstiss
That's fantastic. And I love the sound of that initiative that you are doing. So a little bit like the, I know Olympics in the past and Paralympics have had the Girls go Gold and the, you know, almost like find that talent. But that's amazing, isn't it? Is that, and how those numbers are extraordinary that it gave me goosebumps the thought of all those girls playing out, but, you know, but now coming and having that opportunity to be showcased that they may never have had that is amazing. So how long has that been taking place?
Rachel Pavlou
Discover my Talent has been going for just over a year and all the emerging talent centers, the new ones have only been in place, a few months, but it's all happening, you know, it's all happening at the same time with from grassroots to talent to the coaching and volunteer workforce. We hope that all those pincer movements mean that, we can see some really, great, progress in ensuring that everyone feels this game is for them.
Sue Anstiss
Yeah, it's very, very exciting, isn't it? When I, we talk about the, the Youth Sport trust and the schools program that's happening and then into the Wildcats and these developments. . Fantastic to see it all the way through. For many young women in their communities, I guess their families too would prefer that they are coached by females. And you've alluded a little bit to that. So how important is it that we attract more female coaches and, and what's going on? You've kind of mentioned that, but if a woman wanted to go and get involved in coaching now, what advice would you give to her?
Rachel Pavlou
I would say to any female that wants to get involved in women's football, that we, we want you first of all, that we want to help you to do that. And the first point of call always is to go to either their county football association or their local football club that has a foundation or a community trust. And you'll find people there that wanted, signpost due to the best possible opportunity that's, that's that's available. And just within these last two weeks, I spent this week in Brighton and last week, I was on a, a teams called in Birmingham with, uh, community groups of coaches that our county FAs and regional managers are giving bespoke support to. And that's just in the last, last two weeks and what's amazing about going to those events and, and the one I went to this week in Sussex had 40 women there, they're all at different levels, whether they're grassroots, whether they're talented or whether they're elite. But what they have in common is they, they want that sisterhood of support and being able to talk to people about what it feels like to be a female. And because they're getting that support and they've got the WhatsApp group where they're all talking to each other on a regular basis, they are feeling empowered to be more and more involved in the game. And just by going to those in just the last two weeks of two of them, I really have a feel that across the country there's some really wonderful opportunities for women at this moment in time. So please talk to your county FA or your club, they'll tell you what is available at the moment. There is definitely, certainly bursaries. There are one-to-one mentoring because we have a mentoring volunteer workforce out there as well. We have community champions, you know, there is so much.
Sue Anstiss
It's fantastic. I love your energy and and passion for it too. You've clearly made a massive, massive impact in the growth of women's football. And I know you are often referred to as an unsung hero, but I'm sure you are very proud, you're so humble about all you've done, but it is really is quite extraordinary. Well, I guess is in closing, if you were to share a couple of pieces of advice to other sports looking to grow their women's games like rugby union, rugby league, cricket and so on, and I know we're all on this pathway together, but what learnings have you had, especially on the back of the Euros that you might share with other sports?
Rachel Pavlou
You know, it's really interesting you asked that question cause I think that those sports are doing brilliantly, and if you add hockey a netball to that as well, that that's just all fantastic, aren't they? Women's sport is just at the, team sport I'll say is just at the best time it's ever been. And my biggest advice to everybody has always been and always will be, let's continue to share with each other our knowledge, our experiences, and our good practice because that's something that we've always done and we've been advocated by Sport England to do that. Baroness Sue Campbell has come in after working in UK Sport to encourage us to do that. And we don't just do that with other sports. We also do that with other countries abroad. And I will never, ever forget when I first came into the national role a very long time ago, the first thing I got to do was speak to Germany, Sweden, Holland, and Norway about what they were doing because they were like our, you know, they were the ones that were beating us by ridiculous scores.
And I will never forget how open and honest and kind they all were with their knowledge and experiences to me. And it struck a chord. It was, oh wow, the women's football family and women's sport family are really happy to share and they really wanted us to do really well. And I promised everybody that if ever we got to a stage where we were doing well and we had things to share, that we would help other countries and other sports and, and all of my colleagues are in, are exactly the same view as I am. And, and they do that.
So the biggest advice is let's continue to drive for women and girls to have the best opportunities to be involved in, in every sport that we want them to. Because you and me both know, and, and so many of our listeners know that sport has been fundamental in our lives, not just in our careers, but in, in the times that we spend outside of our careers as well. It's the most important thing in my life, my journey in sport. And I want every single woman and girl to feel that they've had opportunities to do that. So let's continue to work brilliantly together to make that happen.
Sue Anstiss (48:31):
How fantastic to talk to Rachel and hear about all she's done for women's football over the decades. Her passion is infectious and I'm so excited to see what more the FA does in the future.
Head over to fearlesswomen.co.uk to find previous episodes where I've spoken to other Game Changers working in women's football, including Kelly Simmonds, Sue Campbell, Moya Dodd, Maggie Murphy, Hope Powell, Emma Hayes, and Ennie Aluko.
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