Ebony Rainford-Brent: The story of a cricketing trailblazer

SA:       Hello and welcome to The Gamechangers, the podcast where you’ll hear from extraordinary  trailblazing women in sport. I’m Sue Anstiss, a Founding Trustee of the Women’s Sport Trust Charity and the Founder of Fearless Women, a company with a powerful ambition to drive positive change for women’s sport. 

I’m delighted to say that this series of The Gamechangers is supported by Sport England who have done so much to tackle the inequalities women face across all areas of sport. From the wonderful This Girl Can campaign, an initiative that helps shape school sport for girls to schemes that encourage more female volunteers in the workforce, support female coaches and officials and ensure more women from all backgrounds take leadership positions on the boards of our sports organisations.

My guest today is the extraordinary Ebony Rainford-Brent, the former England cricketer, World Cup winner, sports broadcaster at the BBC and Sky, Director of Women’s Cricket at Surrey, motivational speaker and a podcast host.  Is there no end to this woman’s talents? I started the interview by asking Ebony if she could remember the first time she had hit a cricket ball?

ERB:     It was quite powerful for me because I was about 9/10 years old, I was at primary school and I love football, so I knew nothing about cricket.  I thought cricket was a weird sport and I remember they said this guy called Tony Moody, was coming in, he was Jamaican kind of heritage guy, would teach cricket.  I remember being like, Cricket? That’s a bit weird, like what is that?  And I was resistant, I remember being, Nah, I don’t fancy it.  

One of my teachers was like, look just give it a go, it’s something different, you love football, maybe try it and I remember so clearly like the first moment I hit the ball.  It was like a plastic bat, we were on a concrete playing field and the orange ball flew out of the cage and I was like, wow,  wow!  I was just hooked, I was hooked!  So that was it really.  Once I hit my first ball and I was running around with all the boys in the playground, that was it.  I was in. I loved it.

SA:       And what do you think it was about it then?  The sensation of hitting, but what else was it about the game as you started to play that you loved?

ERB:     Yeah, so we played street cricket for a long time, so it was very different to your sort of traditional game, so it was so fast paced.  But I think what was different is there were so many strategic things.  I remember being like, right if I want a wicket, I need to work this guy out. And it’s different to football or basketball.  Yes, there’s strategy but you’re moving and you’ve got players.  I think with cricket I was able to go, right, how do I want to get his kid out?  Or where do I want to hit this ball?

And I think it was just the ability to, within a game, have my own individual sort of strategy.  So then you’re thinking constantly, right, what if I do this?  What if I try and spin it?  What if I bowl it faster?  I just found that I loved the thinking process behind it.  It’s a very strategic game and you could pick that up even in street cricket very quickly.

SA:       That’s really interesting.  I’ve never thought of it from that side before. Never played cricket, that’s probably why, isn’t it?

ERB:     We’ll get you there!  

SA:       You mentioned other sports as well and you’ve obviously mentioned there basketball, but athletics and netball.  So did you play lots of sports at school?

[0:03:21]

ERB:     Yeah, secondary school in particular, I played netball, I played basketball, like English schools’ level.  I played athletics, English schools’ standard.  Squash.  I played loads of sports. Netball.  I think the difference actually is one difference was, I remember  there was a chance I could have possibly tried to creep into England basketball, England cricket as a teenager but there was a lady called Jenny W? [0:03:43] who became like my mentor and she had her mind set on making me a cricketer.  She just did everything.  She got me scholarships.  She’d drive me up to training all around the country.  She was just amazing, so it was kind of her passion for keeping me hooked in the game that was the driver. 

Like I loved being around her so much and she was just so supportive and I think ‘cos it was financially tricky as well for mum, that extra help towards the cricket kind of made it, oh alright there’s someone investing in me and you know, why not?  And so even though I had a lot of other sports I possibly could have kicked on with a lot of those, it was cricket that ended up being the winner, I guess.

SA:       Can you remember at what point you knew you were really good, and you had great potential?

ERB:     Yeah, that’s a good question.  I would say, I remember the first time I got an England Junior letter.  So I was 14 and I remember I got this letter which said you’ve been selected to join England Junior training and it was addressed to Ebony Jewel Rainford-Brent. And I went to my mum and I was like, Mum they’ve got the wrong person, ‘cos I didn’t think I was that good and she was like, Well Ebony, I don’t think there’s any other Ebony Jewel Rainford-Brents out there! 

And so I would say even like playing in England teams in my junior years, I didn’t really know I was good. I don’t know if I ever had that as a sort of a thought process.  What I would say is I most probably dedicated myself later to it after injuries because I was just so passionate about trying but I don’t think I ever had that thought-process like, I am good at this, this is something I could thrive in ‘til much later, even maybe even into my early 20s. It just wasn’t really a thought process for me.

SA:       Just enjoying it. And you grew up in Brixton and family life growing up was difficult. Are you okay to talk about your brother and what happened there?

ERB:     Yeah, definitely, without going into too much detail but I can give you a sort of snapshot.  So we grew up in Herne Hill way, Brixton and I think it was those days was the early days of knife crime so now I think it’s maybe much more common, but then it was difficult.  I was about 5 years old and he was 16 at the time and it was someone he knew through school and growing up.  And it was just an argument between them.  I think my understanding is it was over a girl that they were both interested in.

And the guy plotted, planned, yeah and stabbed him a number of times and it’s something that maybe I’ve processed now as an adult.  I think it’s taken me a long time to process, but it’s the sort of thing that happens within poorer communities. I think if people understand the sort of dynamics of what does happen and why it happens, it makes more sense when you’re in it.  But it’s something that rocked us, it rocked me emotionally for, I think, years. 

[0:06:31]

I think sport was actually my release.  It hit our family hard.  I would say it’s taken us till now, I would say, and that’s a long time later from 5 years old to kind of recover and process losing someone in such a tragic manner and so young.  I know it might not relate directly to a lot of people’s experiences, but I think we’ve all had like a sudden loss  sometimes and a  sudden loss in a shocking way is just really hard to deal with.  So yeah it was a sad thing for our  family and something that I really feel for families who are going through that now because I don’t think you can get over those sorts of experiences at all.

SA:       And family wise, you’ve got two brothers and are you still close to as a family unit now coming up?

ERB:     Yeah, kind of.  One brother’s been inside for a long time.  We haven’t really had much contact, I’m not sure what he’s up to now but we’re estranged, as such.  And then another brother I’m really close with, yeah, Dom. So we speak most days and he’s been most probably one of the - even though we argue, I don’t know about you guys, we have that that sort of fiery sort of relationship - but he’s also been  one of my biggest supports, buying me spikes when I needed it as a kid, through to helping me get my first flat.  He’s that sort of practical brother who just gets stuff done for you.  So, yeah, I’ve been really lucky to have him in my life.

SA:       And cricket is such a white middle-class sport in huge contrast really to a multi-cultural city really – where you grew up in Brixton.  Did you feel like you belonged? You talked about street cricket initially but as you moved into the more traditional format did you feel like  you belonged in the cricket world?

ERB:     No, definitely not and I mean I’ve spoken more recently about my experiences. I never really felt like I belonged.  It was such a different world and I think the values, the experiences. My friends at home were everything.  White, black, Asian, very diverse and you never really had to think about your colour.  I never thought about my colour in my home world, because everyone just understood everyone just by the nature of being in such a multi-cultural environment and then cricket is very different.  

It’s a higher socio-economic class traditionally. It’s white and I was the only black girl who  was the first black women to play for England so you just kind of went through and I think I’ve spoken about, there’s been a mixture of experiences which I  won’t go into too much ‘cos I feel like I’ve exhausted myself recently talking about BLM. But yeah I’ve had my racist experiences which were difficult which makes you feel more isolated and alone.  And I maybe didn’t have the confidence in those days to speak up or challenge and things like that so it was always a  – how would you describe it? It was just always something that you felt like you felt it and it was a lonely feeling of just not being quite being a part. 

But I did stay with the game.  I loved the game, I’m grateful now that I’m doing a lot of projects which is trying to look at making the game more diverse because I think we need to make the game reach out.  More like football does, netball does, basketball does, athletics, even rugby, which was an elitist sport like cricket, has started to shift more.  So I want cricket to be one of those sports ‘cos I know what it feels like to realise there’s a lack of difference in our game.

SA:       

[0:09:45]

SA:       And why do you think more girls haven’t come through the path in the way that you did? So obviously they came into your school, they inspired you and you started playing.  So why were there not more Ebonies that followed around your time do you think?

ERB:     So mine was complete potluck so the lady I spoke about, Jenny, she spotted me when I was about ten by chance at the sort of competition, whereas they had to have a girl, so I think I got roped in to be the, Come on, there’s a girl, get her in! And she saw me at this, I remember her going to my mum and doing all the sort of selling. Come on, let’s get her in, she got to me into Surrey etc.  If you look at the pathways which I’m starting to do a lot more work looking at, it’s not connected from inner city to our traditional game.  It’s not at all. 

All the kids playing street projects, there aren’t talent ID processes, there aren’t academies which will help those kids move from soft ball to hard ball.  There’s not enough investment.  There’s investment in grassroots programmes in those areas but the pathway is not linked up and so for me, Jenny did all that.  She did the hard yards but I know from coaching, I’ve been into, I remember going into Loughborough junction, Myatt’s Fields Estate which is just down the road from where I grew up, and I would say the most talented girl I’ve ever seen in my entire life, had never played before, I asked her to pick up and do this throw.

She threw down the stumps like quick.  She was quick.  So I moved the stumps and I kept moving it back and back and back.  And challenges and go on. And she was hitting down one stump every single time.  She had never played before and I remember speaking to her mum, her mum had a number of kids, was working 2 or 3 jobs and I said, Look, I want to get her involved and the challenge was the times of the training.  The location was in Guilford which is miles away, and we tried.  I remember us trying to make it happen but without someone who could physically get the girls to the training,  it was just too much for a mum with all these other challenges. 

And so I think that’s the problem with our game is that, whereas football is much more you can play within your community and get better and those opportunities are on your doorstep,  cricket is more based around the traditional club. So I’m doing a lot of work, hopefully you’ll hear in the next 6 months or so some projects that I’m working on because I feel that we can really beak down those barriers if we invest in them.

SA:       Excellent.  You see those incredible teams from India and Pakistan and yet in the UK in the South Asian communities we’re just not seeing those girls coming through at all. 

ERB:     Yeah, massively. I’m going to stay optimistic and say it’s the potential of growth is ridiculous, it just now needs the investment and the willing.  And I think there is investment around the South Asian community but then the other bit, the willingness to want – I don’t know if you’ve heard, we’ve started an Ace Academy at Surrey.

SA:       Yes.

ERB:     Which stands for African Caribbean Engagement Programme.  And we’ve gone out looking for diverse talent, we’re looking for it, and we’re developing it and I think you’ve just got to go looking for the talent and help them progress through.

[0:12:43]

SA:       Good luck, we look forward to hearing a bit more of that in the months ahead as well.  To get back to your playing, you suffered a big career upset at 19 when you were on that pathway.  Can you tell us a little bit about what happened there?

ERB:     Yeah, my back, oh man!  I would say it was one of the tougher experiences of my life really.  I went to an England trials kind of, it wasn’t official trials, but I got called up to join the full England side.  I remember being like, So, this is my time to impress! I’m going to bowl fast. I was a bowler in those days.  I’m going to run in, I’m going to do everything, charge in.  And I turned up and I bowled like a couple of balls and I thought, Oh my back feels a bit weird. But you think, just suck it up, suck it up and I bowled a couple more and I was like, Oh there’s something off. 

And I found a way to just excuse myself.  And I remember getting back in my Ford Fiesta, one of my favourite ever cars actually, that old school Ford Fiesta, bombed it back down the motorway.  I was living with my boyfriend at the time, I got in and I remember saying, Oh my back’s a bit dodgy and I bent back down to pick up the remote and I just collapsed and I never really walked properly from that point.  It turns out that I was past defect in the spine, two prolapsed discs. There was all those problems that I suppose I knew there was back problems but they had never quite been diagnosed even when I saw physios etc.

Because of the stage, we weren’t fully professional at that stage so there weren’t, how do you describe it, there weren’t …

SA:       Sport Science support 

ERB:     We went through the slow NHS. They did MRI scans.  I remember the doctor telling me that I might never play sport again and the amount of damage, that I needed to be concerned about all sorts of things.  You know when it’s just the panic of the moment, I just was like, I’m going to lose sport.  I couldn’t sit up properly, so I had to leave university, I was studying Chemistry at UCL.  I left university for a year and pretty much just laid on my back for a year if I’m honest.  Like I tried a bit of treatment here.  Nothing was working.  I tried a physio, nothing was working, so I just kind of went into a dark place and I thought that was it.  I thought my life was over.  

My brother that I spoke about earlier, the one that we are like firecracker but supporters. I remember it was about a year in - I’d put on lots of weight, I was sitting in dark rooms - I was eating angel cake and watching Homes Under the Hammer in our basement flat.  And he called me one day and he just effed and blinded.  He was like, You’ve effing given up!  You’ve given up! You’re this, you’re that, sort it effing out! And I was, Yeah but Dom, the diagnosis and what the doctors said.  And he was like, F that, are you going to just accept that as your reality, or are you going to try something different?  

And I was, whatever.  And between that, and my mum had shoved all those motivational CDs from a guy called Tony Robbins.  So I started … he kind of barked me mentally and I started listening to these guru tapes.

SA:       Actually Tony Robbins swears a bit as well, doesn’t he?

ERB:     Yeah, he does, he doesn’t mind an F bomb or two does he? So I think it was the two things at that time.  My brother kind of shaking me up and then listening to the tapes and then I made goals and I was like, I want to come back and I want to play for England.  I want to get my master’s in chemistry and I wrote it up on the wall.  

[0:15:53]

And I kind of just stared at it for a few weeks, nothing really happened.  And then I decided to start thinking differently and I started looking for alternative types of treatment.  Acupuncture, chiropractors - all that sort of stuff - and I finally found after a number of tries a number for a chiropractor, who just the minute he saw me, he said, I can sort you out.  I know exactly what’s going on.  He adjusted me.  I started seeing him  three or four times a week.  And imagine going from not walking properly to like walking, and you’re like, Oh my God! 

So it was a process, it took three or four years.  I’d love to say it was an overnight thing.  He got me back to walking first year properly, then running and then by the time I was kind of ready to play sport, and my brother funded that as well, then the funding was available through some university initiatives and sports initiatives.  So that was it, I then got back.  It was tough, I have to say.  Mentally, to have a year pretty much laying on your back and just putting on weight and feeling hopeless is a dark place. But equally I mostly learned how to get out of a dark place and that’s a really good thing that I think is a powerful skill.

SA:       And as you were coming back, did you know that you would come back to cricket, was that your driving force to kind of get you back and recovered?

ERB:     Yeah, it was, the World Cup.  And my mum found the papers, ‘cos I used to write little goals down and I remember it was just thinking about I want to be part of that World Cup and it was four years away.  It was the one we ended up going on to win in, so it was about four years away from when I wrote it.  And it seemed like a bit of a pipe dream, but it was also just the what if?  The thought of, what if I could get back, what if? That was the thing that drove me, and I knew if I was able to get back to playing to an international standard, I would have got my body back to a reasonable amount of health.  So it was like a driver of like, can I work out and push myself? My back’s still not perfect, I have to do a lot of work on it but I’m still glad that I went through that process.

SA:       Absolutely. And when did you make your full debut for England?

ERB:     My full debit, so 2007 was my first debut, even though we got a cap for some stuff we played as juniors but that was my first proper debut, 2007, and the World Cup we won was 2009.

SA:       And you mentioned earlier that you were the first black woman to play for England.  So when did you realise you were kind of making history?  How did that feel at the time?

ERB:     Yeah, it was weird, it was weird.  Our media manager at the time, a lady called Imogen,  it was when we were in Trini and we were just out there and she just said, Ebony I don’t know if it’s me, but I think you might be the first black woman.  I was like, Nah! You know when you’re like, Nah!  It’s 2007 and I’m thinking I’m living in an environment which is all sorts of people. I was like, No, no, just check it. 

And then when she told me I was half embarrassed because I think they made a little announcement or sort of put it in the notes somewhere.  And I remember just feeling a little bit embarrassed ‘cos I kind of didn’t feel like, Oh this is amazing.

[0:18:47]

I felt like, why are there not more? I wanted there to be more, so I was a little bit embarrassed, like when people talked about it I was like, Mmm, yeah, I am.  And I didn’t embrace it.  I didn’t own it.  I think it’s only now as an adult that I’m like, Okay look, this is cool and it’s something I can leverage to say, Look, let’s bring more in.  But at that time playing, when you’re the only one as well, saying it in the team it wasn’t like everyone was saying, Oh that’s really cool.  It was just a bit like, Okay, why are they making a big thing? So it wasn’t a thing I embraced or a long time.  I felt a bit awkward.

SA:       Wasn’t celebrated by the media at the time?

ERB:     No we weren’t, and our media was kind of so limited then just to, Did they win?  Did they lose?  And that was it.  There was no extra narrative or attention at that stage. Sophia Dunkley who was the next player, a couple of years ago, so it’s been 11 years between me and her - so she’s not a regular in the team but she played a couple of matches -  that had a little bit more traction which was nice, just to see that progression because the stories are now out there and hopefully she can keep flying the flag.

SA:       And more, more to come!

ERB:     And more, a lot more, yeah.

SA:       Cricket doesn’t really have a particularly good reputation in terms of its male/female balance in the past.  But do you think Claire Connor’s appointment as President of the MCC is a sign that things are changing in the right direction there?

ERB:     Massively. I mean, her as an individual anyway has done so much for the game.  I’m thinking as soon as she came in, she got a chance to shine.  Contracts, which meant that girls could work part-time, then she got it to professionalism.  We see Lords. She’s done so much and I think if there was ever a space and anyone who watched the final of the Women’s World Cup in 2017 would have seen a packed stadium but the pavilion where the members were, was empty and you knew people were gagging for tickets.  There were people outside the ground and you’re just thinking, if that was a men’s World Cup final, it would have been absolutely rammed and it showed I guess to the world, who looked at the diversity of the crowd -  the families, the kids -  was so beautiful and then just to see that hole was kind of a reminder of  where that sort of side of the game is. 

And what’s good about Claire Connor’s appointment is she knows how to go into a board room or a tricky environment and make change.  She’s done that and I think MCC making that, I think that’s an important statement.  Not only she’s credible in her own right, nothing to do with gender, she’s credible in her own right but also that’s a point from them to show I think that they’re thinking forward.  They know they need change and she would be the person to do it.

SA:       Excellent.  Just to go back to 2009 you mentioned you were part of the winning team at the World Cup.  Did you go into that tournament thinking you could win?  Not you personally but as a team?

ERB:     As a unit. Yeah, we did.  You know what’s really interesting?  So when I made my debut, 2007, we lost every single game in that tournament except I think the last one when the results had been decided. And it was a really painful experience.  The excitement of, Oh my God, this is my first tournament and we saw ourselves as a team that could compete and we couldn’t.  It was a world series; Australia, New Zealand, India and us, who were meant to be the best four teams in the world and we were completely outplayed.

[0:22:02]

I just remember us being like, this is not good.  We are nowhere near where we need to be and we’ve got the World Cup in two years, we’ve got no chance.  Charlotte Edwards our Captain was like, Look guys, we need to scrap and change everything.  We had like a change of management. The players got shaken up.  There were a few F bombs at times in the changing rooms.  Everything you need to kind of  shake up the environment but what was so fascinating is how  the new lens of – well we’ve got pretty much 18 months to get our acts together - and we all worked out exactly what our role was.  

And my role was interesting because I was, at that stage, an opening batter ‘cos my bowling had kind of gone because of my back, so opening batter,  but also I knew I might not play every game so I knew my role was also to bring energy, if I was not playing, I have to bring energy to the field, to bringing on the drinks, to the supporting your team mates, so everyone got clear.  What is my role on the field?  What is my role off it?  What do we need to do to click?

And we just kind of started finding this flow and then we went on this unbeaten run up into the World Cup of nearly 20 games, where it just clicked.  So I think by that point turning up to the tournament, we thought, Do you know what?  We can do this.  We’ve worked out what we need to do.  We’ve got the management right. We’ve got the roles and responsibilities right.  And so we did believe it.  We went there with a real belief.  

I would say it’s one of the most surreal experiences for me, because I’ve been in work environments and team environments etc, but it was almost we got to the point that we were so clear, and everyone believed,  and everyone was 100% behind it, that there was no arrogance, but it was just like, it’s going to happen. It’s just going to happen. We’re just going to do what we’ve been doing and it’s going to work.  So by the time we hit the World Cup, I think we knew it and that whole year World Cup, World T20 and the Ashes, we just went on a run.  eE fell off a cliff a little bit after that but at least that year was incredible.  It was really incredible.  

SA:       Did you have psychologists working with you then in terms of mental attitude for the team as well?

ERB:     Yeah, in and out.  Now it’s much more of a staple thing in the teams.  That stage it was some players really embraced it.  Someone like Claire Taylor  - who is one of the greatest players that we’ve ever had in our women’s game globally but she was part of that team - she was someone who very much embraced it and she would seek it out.  Some of us young players we would do the occasional kind of group session a bit like, Meh, what is that? I mean I’ve now become an obsessive about sort of mindset and psychology but at that stage you could take it a little bit and not take it if you didn’t want to and some players really embraced it.  

But now, you see how it’s all evolved and it’s a very common thing that everyone embraces psychology now, but then it was a bit hit or miss.  I was a bit like, Meh, what is this?  And then when I saw us win and I saw Claire Taylor do everything she did and she gave me a book , The Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey and after I read that, then I was like, Oh wow, it’s like a whole other world and I think that just opened up the mindset for me.

[0:25:00]

SA:       And how did that win affect women’s cricket in the UK at the time?  So, back in 2007?

ERB:     It’s had so many impacts. I think before that, like I was saying, people might just report on a result or loss, like somewhere at the bottom of a website in a page.  After that, it was the first time, I remember we made front pages on a couple of big newspapers and it started to be talked about .  I think the men weren’t doing so well so then it became, not that we ever wanted to compete, but it came up, Oh well the women are doing alright.  What’s going on with the men?  And then that created a dialogue, should we invest more?  And what then from that moment happened was investment.  I think people realised  the country enjoyed the success of a female team.  

The team that could be very successful for a long time and it’s worth investing in it.  And so Claire Connor had not only a platform of who she was, but she had a platform of success to work with.  Individually it changed lives.  Me and Isa Guha who retired not long after that, all of a sudden, having a World Cup title was like, why don’t we get them on to commentate on a game or two?  Which has then turned into a whole career that’s forged pathways and it gives you credibility even if I wasn’t the best player in the world, people don’t mind hearing from a woman if you’ve won a World Cup.  

So it did change careers individually.  So I would say everything has kind of progressed and then the 2017 win at home I think was the complete flip point for real. Right, this is the next level in women’s sport.  I think that packed house at Lords summed up to a lot of people what the potential is for the women’s game.

SA:       Excellent.  And you mentioned there that not long after you retired.  So when did you know that your career was coming to an end?

ERB:     Yeah, there’s a bit of a funny story about this. Isa Guha has a lot to answer for! So what had happened is, a few things.  I was having a bit of a bad time in the team around sort of 2010.  I’d got injured, a really freak accident after stepping back on a ball, did something to my ankle, still went on tour but in pain and just not enjoying the team environment at that point.  I ended up coming back and having an operation and had about 6 months out of the game.

And it was the first time in my life I didn’t just care about cricket, I was like, Oh I’ve got friends. Oh I’ve got family. Oh I could go out and party.  And I started to think about, was the first time having six months off just doing normal stuff that I had a chance to think about the real world.  I started doing some work experience, I was working for a charity called Lords Taverners part-time.  And I guess I realised I could find fulfilment outside, like things that gave me the same amount.  So I started thinking about it for a while, but I wasn’t sure.  And I remember calling Isa.  

We skyped, she was in India and I was like, Mate I think I’m thinking about retiring and I gave her this whole chat.  She was like, No, no!  Stick with it, mate, stick with it! You’ve got to dig in another 5 years, you got this.  I want you to stay, I want to play with you.  So I was alright. So just dig in, Isa’s told you to dig in.  And then a week later she called me up and she was like, Mate, just so you know there’s an announcement coming out tomorrow. I’m done! 

[0:28:06]

I said, what? You’re out? I’m out, I’m out.  And so she announced her retirement and then I was like, right, if she’s gone, I’m gone! Right, I’m out!  So we retired within a week of each other. But it was coming, I think that happens with an athlete, you’re so single-minded for so much of your career and then a lot of people I’ve spoken to, there’s this moment where you’ve a kind of lens of you want to be doing other stuff.  And it’s the minute that your brain starts to kind of just disappear.  You’re in the nets and you’re not quite concentrating.  That never happened to me before and I just knew, I just knew it was time to go.  I think I realised I wanted to do other things.  And it was definitely the right moment for me.

SA:       And you started commentating.  So was that initially on women’s cricket and then across to men’s?

ERB:     Yeah, it was fun.  So when I retired, I didn’t have a plan, I didn’t have a focus and about a week or so later, I was on Streatham Common station and my phone rang, unknown number, and it was like Hi, I’m Adam ? from BBC, I heard you are interested in commentary and I was like, I don’t remember telling anyone that but ,Yeah I am, I am! And you know when you just blag it like, Yeah, I’ve always wanted to do it.  It’s the number one dream!

And yeah, I remember the plan was only for us to do a couple of women’s games that they were going to cover that summer, me and Isa both did it with two guys, Charles Dagnall and Kevin Howells.  And then I think they were so happy they thought actually those women are alright that they just put us straight in.  We did the Australia men’s ODIs that summer.  There was no announcement, which I like.  There wasn’t, Here comes the women, or anything like that, which I’ve seen in other parts of the world. It was just, we think you’re good enough, give it a go, no training and that was it.  

So I ended up sort of doing that and then within no time it was like men’s cricket took over.  I was doing like now 80% men’s cricket, 20 % women.  So I’ve been really fortunate to get the opportunity and then it just seemed to have just flown. I say, timing, you know when sometimes timing in life, we could have tried to make a career of it 10 years before and nothing would have happened but I think timing, people were ready for different voices.

SA:       And yet it’s interesting you say, instead of having no training, with your expertise you got there and away you went. 

ERB:     Yeah, I think there’s a few things.  I would say I haven’t really had much traditional training.  I think my first proper session was about a year ago and then I found out all the mistakes I’d been making for the last ten years.  And I am a kinaesthetic learner, I like to go in and just listen and feel anyway, but what I would say is there’s no doubt how much playing the game helps.  Not every commentator is a player but what I found is, even in a tricky moment where I’m not sure what to say, or I’m babbling for my words, you just say what you see, which gets you out of a hole for a little while.  

So that grounding in playing I think kind of gave us a little bit of breathing room because you could at least just understand what was happening in the game well enough or put yourself in that position.  You could say, Right, that batter at the crease. I know what they’re thinking.  They’re trying to work the ball between this, and that becomes … and then you calm down and you realise I need to improve my broadcasting and you start to listen to others.  

[0:31:16]

And their styles – I speak very quickly – I spend all my life trying to slow myself down which has always been my challenge but yeah, no training and I think it depends on different people and different personalities but I quite like just getting in and learning on the job.

SA:       And are you a different commentator now to where you were 10 years ago?  Have you listened back to what you did before?

ERB:     BBC, they did, there was a programme, and they pulled out my first ever piece of commentary and my voice sounded like, Hi!  I’m Ebony! I sounded like a Smurf or something. Yeah, so I think my voice has changed, it’s definitely a bit fuller and a bit deeper.  I can tell the different when I’m confident and when I’m not because when you’re confident you speak with a little bit more space.  You emphasise your words.  Whereas early days when you’re not sure, and I’ll still say that creeps in now when you’re starting a series or you haven’t commentated for a while. 

I speak too quickly and you just flow through and the difference is the depth in the voice.  It’s like, I’ll say things with a bit more authority and I structure my points a little bit better now than I did then.  But I still feel like there’s still a long way to do and TV as well now is another dimension with talkback and directors in your ears and looking at different cameras and all that.  There’s definitely loads more to keep learning.

SA:       I love learning.  It’s great to keep developing and learning more.  Female commentators and pundits face some pretty brutal backlash, especially in sports like football.  Have you faced much of that at all in cricket?

ERB:     Luckily the nature - I have, definitely have, I’ve had a number of comments around skin colour, around gender, no one cares, get off, whatever it is - but I would say it’s 95% love. And also I’ve learned to sort of step back from social media even though I’m active on it, emotionally not get connected so much.  So Alex Scott, for example, I know in football you read sometimes the tweets and you just think, but it’s a different beast - it’s more tribal, football  - and I think it attracts more hate on line, just generally.  And I would say that’s not even just to her as a female, you see it just through football.  

Whereas cricket, people do tweet badly but it’s just a slightly different style. If anything, people try and over-intellectualise.  This week, and this wasn’t on Twitter, but someone wrote a piece and their comment about me and Isa was that we used glottal stots, so we don’t pronounce our words the way they like.  And I was just like, you know, you can intellectualise the comment but it’s different to, I would say, football, you see some real raw, nasty stuff.  So I just do my best to ignore it.  I’m much better, sometimes I use filters, I don’t know if anyone else does, but Twitter you can sometimes filter just to see replies from people that you know, so if I’ve got a busy period and I just don’t want to be bothered by dodgy comments, then I just turn it off so you just don’t see it. 

SA:       That’s good to know, actually we should let some of our younger female athletes we’re working with at the moment talk about that. It’s wonderful to see so many women in cricket media now and I was lucky enough to interview Elly Oldroyd last week and I guess with her and then Alison and you mentioned Isa and you in terms of the coverage for the latest Test.  Do you feel things are moving significantly in the right direction for women these days in commentary?

[0:34:39]

ERB:     Yeah, massively, massively.  I think there was so much like, first of all, I think Ali I think was someone who, the producer who called us, I think Ali had spoken to them like a while back and said, Look when these girls retire, get them in.  The one thing I would say was I always knew seeing Alison and Elly before us in that space, even though I didn’t know them personally that well at the time but I had seen them, it was kind of like, Ah it’s okay ‘cos there’s a couple.  Them, me and Isa on the analysing side, they were more on the presenting side at that stage, but I already felt possibility ‘cos I could see it, you kind of need to see something before you believe it.  

Then you go forward to 2017 Word Cup and it was an all-women female team with high quality  broadcasters that are working in men’s and women’s cricket around the world.  Mel Jones from Australia, one of the greatest broadcasters, male or female, full-stop. Natalie Germanos from South Africa.  You know when you look around a team and you’re like wow, this is a milestone.  Not only are we an all-female team but we’re also a high-quality female team of women working across sport, just regardless of its gender and that kind of mentally sort of cemented to me how far the game has come.

I still think there’s a long way to go.  I’d love to see more written journalists, female journalists.  I think we’ve got some.  Telegraph, women’s sport doing some, but I’d love to see more.  The only thing I would say is  you still do walk into the media centre and I think the commentary box has improved but you still, when you look across the mass, the written journalists, there’s a long way to go still there.

SA:       Absolutely.  And would you like to do more outside of sport?  So in terms of other entertainment and other programmes – is media your passion now?

ERB:     Yeah, I really love media.  I think, I don’t know, I’m quite a bubbly person, I don’t know if I sound like it on a podcast today, but I genuinely am a bubbly person.  I love being around people and I love creative things.  I would love to move into other spaces.  I think recently I’ve just pitched a couple of documentaries which I link to sport and some social issues which, fingers crossed, I think they might get some traction. But then that to me is like an opening door of, 1, trying to help work together to get a programme together and then 2, if you do that, and you do sport, I love social issues and tackling challenges, then I’d love to do a documentary which maybe takes something a little bit further.  So I’d love to move into it.  I’m maybe less of a reality TV-ish.

SA:       You’re not going to be dancing this Christmas or anything ?

ERB:     Don’t get me wrong, you’ll maybe consider it but that’s not my natural kind of direction but I think I’d love to get into programmes and even actually behind the scenes a little bit on putting programme and programme ideas together as well. 

SA:       And aside from the media work, you’re obviously really active within the management of cricket as well.  So can you tell me a little bit more about your role at Surrey?

ERB:     Yeah, definitely.  So given a role, five or six years ago, Director of Women’s Cricket, it was really great for us, our county, that they just saw women’s cricket was growing but they wanted someone to come in and have a real focus.  So it was not only looking at the performance strand and how we can improve the performance – by the way, I’m just ging to say today, that our Surrey women have won two trophies already this summer, am just so excited, just have to give a shoutout to Hannah Jones the captain and everybody.

[0:37:51]

But one was to get the performance up but actually it was more to integrate women’s cricket within the club, because we have a commercial team, marketing team, finance etc and women’s cricket kind of sat over there on a shelf somewhere and I think the club wanted us to bring t in.  So it was a lot of getting to know everybody across the whole club and get them caring about women’s cricket.  And it took a few years, it took a couple of years just to get it on everybody’s lens but now my role is much more hands-off around the women’s game.  I sit on the bord so then you can push agendas. 

For example, this year with Covid we were able to talk about, we want women’s cricket to be the first back and we were the first game that Surrey played, male or female.  We streamed it under lights at the Oval. Can bring up agendas around diversity.  So that role has changed, it’s much more sort of stepped-back and strategic now whereas when I first started it was very much hands-on and trying to get everybody caring but now we’re looking at how can we leverage and grow the women’s game.  And I know we’re both interested about commercialising the game and I think there’s a lot more we can do there as a club so I’m focusing on some of those lenses now.  

SA:       And was elite coaching, that pathway, ever something you seriously considered?

ERB:     Yeah, good question.  I’ve done some badges and I started doing my level three, but I don’t have enough patience. I get so emotionally involved.  Whenever I sit on the bench, the players were just like, Ebony shut up, you’re just a bit too keen! I think coaching and that’s one thing you’ve got to know your strengths and weaknesses, right? I think coaching takes a certain level of patience, allowing someone to develop in their own space and sometimes that means you can’t fast track them, they’ve got to find their own way.  

And I get so frustrated ‘cos I just want to be like, Right just do this and do that, and I realise that that’s not quite the best coaching mentality.  I think I’m much better in a management role, but I think when I’ve got to coaching, I just almost went too far and got too emotionally involved and that’s not quite the skillset you need.  My best coaches have had this ability to kind of give you that little bit of insight when you need it but then step back and let you grow.  And I just struggled with that balance.  I was just always so – I can help somebody one-to-one with ideas – which I’ve done, I think you could try playing this shot or that shot but not so much day to day, it wasn’t quite my skillset.

SA:       And what’s the balance of your time, it’s different now in Covid, but in terms of your media work, you’re working with charities, you’re working with the club, you’re doing motivational speaking?

ERB:     How does it all work? The balance is non-existent.  I think it’s more of a lifestyle.  What I mean by that is when I started the Surrey stuff, I was already doing my media, so my media was my main focus.  So we knew that I was starting, so we said, Look, let’s try one day a week in the office, then with emails and stuff like that around.  Whereas now I would just say it’s a lifestyle.  I mostly talk every day – I was on the phone a moment ago – I’ve got projects to write.  It’s just a lifestyle.  I’ve never really been someone who clocks time and I think that’s a useful thing in the jobs that I do because my media is maybe on paper, 80% of my work but then I would say my Surrey stuff might be 30% and that’s going over … then you do a talk and then you deal with this. 

[0:41:04]

So I’ve had to learn to get my time managed better.  As you might know, I’ve got somebody  who looks after my diary actually which helps me structure my life. Like I’ve tried to put things in blocks so I can get time to think about things or time to work around travelling and schedules.  So, I would say, every job is mostly overdoing what it says on paper and it’s more of a lifestyle  than a job.  There’s no sort of Monday to Friday and then you switch off for two days.  I don’t think I’ve ever had that.  I’ll be on tour in New Zealand writing strategy documents for Surrey or something like that.  It’s that sort of lifestyle.

SA:       And you have your own podcast, The Art of Success, which I love, and it gave me lots of inspiration for mine, I was just starting this podcast too!  How much did you learn?  I’ve loved doing these podcasts but how much did you learn from talking to other people and some amazing guests you’ve had as well.

ERB:     Yeah, some amazing people.  Everyone’s been, like Alistair Campbell to Richard Osman who’s TV, an amazing producer from Endemol, athletes, all sorts.  I learned so much.  I think the first thing I learned about is like failure.  We all know it, and we know that you’ve got to be okay with failure and I was so scared even just to start doing it, but then every time I’d listen to someone, you can just hear the failure through their story about how they just kept going and going and testing.  And that was resilience really, just going despite fears or despite … and I think it kind of reinforced for me like, it’s part of life.

I also, the other thing which I did a little summary episode once, but strategy, I couldn’t believe how strategic thinking so many people were.  Alistair Campbell well he was a spin doctor as such, but he talked about how he viewed a lot of things and it opened my mind to strategy.  Richard Osman sitting down and talking to him and I realised how strategic thinking … athletes were talking about how they built their careers.  And it made me think about creating more space for planning and vision. 

Where do you want to go? What’s the next step?  What’s further than that? And I would say also, purpose.  Everybody seemed to have a purpose behind what they were working towards. So I learned loads from doing it and I would say actually just organising yourself and getting it done as I’m sure you know what it’s like and this technology is better than how I started doing it.  Was definitely  struggling and like, how do you get this done?  And then, Oh, sorry, I forgot to press record! I’m sure you’ve had those challenges, right?

SA:       Absolutely! You were planning to write a book at the time, is that still something in the pipeline?

ERB:     Yes, it’s in the pipeline, I just don’t know when. Amongst all the things.  I’ve got like a couple of loose chapters.  I need to give it to someone actually to kind of take the sections from the book with what they’ve done and kind of mirror it, I just haven’t organised myself, but maybe I just need to just get that back on the agenda.  It’s a to do, a definite to do, but when, ah, getting it done.

SA:       It brings me to your bucket list. I’ve heard about this amazing bucket list that you’ve got.  Has Covid slowed down your progress?

[0:44:11]

ERB:     Oh man yeah! I got one done just before, I flew into to London, going to Fiji island hopping was one of them and I got that done.  But I’ve been obsessed with my bucket list maybe six years.  I wrote out 83 things I think it is that I wanted to do. You know why I did it?  I was ending my cricket career and I was realising I haven’t been anywhere.  I’ve not even been to, well I’ve been to Paris but as a kid, but I hadn’t really been anywhere.  I hadn’t done anything. I hadn’t started learning anything and so I just put loads of things on there.  

Golf, I want to climb Mount Kilimanjaro. I just wrote a load of things I want to do.  I wanted to be in a flash mob which I’ve done which was just so much fun.  It gives me focus so that I’ve got a to do list that pops up once a month and just says right, what adventure are you planning? 

SA:       That’s a documentary in itself, isn’t it?  Follow Ebony’s bucket list! 

ERB:     Yeah, let’s do it. I’d love to, that’s a good idea, writing that one down! But I think it’s so important.  I think it is important, we should definitely all just make sure we carve out time to do just those one or two things that are on our dream list.

SA:       I love it.  So I heard that, play the drums, actually playing the drums is on my bucket list! My husband says, why don’t you just get started? Yeah, at some point in the future.  So I love that you’re doing that. How’s that going?

ERB:     I would say that the thing I’m learning in getting these things done is you’ve just got to be in your eye line, right?  You know working out, if I can’t see my workout kit or the weights or my bike which I use, I’m just not working out.  If it’s hard work, you’re just not doing it.  So I would say, get a little pad or kit and chuck it in your living room or somewhere, like mine is, mine’s right by my sofa. And you just walk past it so then every now and then you’re like, I might just jump on. So … it’s so much fun and I go down to proper drum studios, I’ve got  all the proper gear and play, maybe every couple of weeks just a stress relief of hitting things as loud as possible.  It’s the best fun.

SA:       And have you shared your bucket list anywhere?  

ERB:     It’s on my website, yeah. It is actually.

SA:       Sorry, I should say that, shouldn’t I then?

ERB:     It’s on a few tabs in and yeah I think I’ve crossed off, I might need to do an update, but I’ve crossed off quite a few, so I’ve maybe done about 20 or so. So yeah, if anyone’s interested, go and check it out. Someone actually, I’d wanted to have breakfast in The Shard, and someone saw it and just got in touch and was like, Oh I just looked at your bucket list, come along!  So if anyone can help me!

SA:       I’ll put that in the show notes as well. Inspiration or for suggestions. And so who are the people in your career you’ve most looked up to in your broad working life really? Who’s inspired you?

ERB:     That’s really good.  I’m actually really inspired at the moment, I mean it sounds a bit corny,  but my Chief Exec and Chairman at Surrey.  They are, how do I describe them?  They have pushed me to grow so learning. How do you manage your time better?  How do you think strategically better? What is so nice about working with them is how strong their values are. 

[0:47:13]

They’re very caring about people and progressing people and if you go to them about women’s cricket, it’s in their DNA to want it to be the best it can be.  They are so forward thinking and so I think I’m always around them whenever I work with them just soaking up how they go about business.  The club has been very successful historically and even from a commercial perspective, and I think I just listen and soak up from them how they go about business, how they go about building teams and just the values that they drive that with.

SA:       What are their names?

ERB:     Oh sorry, Richard Gould and Richard Thompson, so they’re our Chief Exec and Chairman so I’m constantly soaking up and learning from them.  I think I’m always motivated just generally.  Someone like Denise Lewis who I remember watching her as a kid when the heptathlon, and she’s become a friend now and I just 1, she’s just always got energy, she’s always, she looks younger than, looks 20, even though she’s got four kids, she’s maintained an amazing career. 

She’s always got something to say on important issues.  So someone like her I’m just always looking to as a – not only was I inspired as a kid – sometimes you meet your heroes and they’re just not what you think they are.  She was everything you thought, and I don’t know, she’s just got so much energy for life that I think, right, Denise you’re inspiring me, I’m on that, I’m on that wavelength. 

And then I would say I don’t know there are so many people who have inspired me throughout my journey , you know like I mentioned Jenny W? my one-to-one coach. People like that.  But I would say, people like I said, now it’s about the next level and what I’m trying to achieve strategically, and I think I’m soaking up from people like Richard and Richard about those sorts of things.

SA:       You’ve clearly had massive success, so just finally, what advice would you give to young women coming through and wanting to progress in the sport sector today?

ARB:     I would still say believe in yourself and maybe people – sounds so corny – but I’ve done a lot of work, I said I didn’t believe in psychology before – now I have a session every two weeks for myself as a growth thing. Because I think what I’ve realised the more I’ve unlocked belief in myself the more you put yourself forward for opportunities. The more when you get the opportunity you maximise it.  The more you grow in confidence and I think just because of history of the world, and biases and all those sorts of things, women we still have a little bit of work to do for ourself too, to do that. 

So I would say two things, I would say, 1, build your confidence and the other is, always work on a good environment.  I think you could be a really good smart person but if you’re in the wrong company or you’re in the wrong team or you’re in the wrong environment, it’s not going to work for you.  Everything that’s around you can double or triple your success. I could have had vision for women’s cricket but been at the wrong county and they didn’t value it and we wouldn’t have been able to make a difference. 

So two things, work on building yourself up and your confidence and that will always grow  and then the other is just get around really good people and good environments.

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