Stacey Copeland: Challenging society's view of femininity

So, my very first memories of playing football were at school, in the playground, at any time that I could. 

To be honest I didn’t realise, there wasn’t really a girl or boy thing to me then, you were just all friends. I was the only girl as it happens, but it really didn’t occur to me that much, I just loved playing football. 

That was my first memories of being involved, my first memories of actually playing football was on the school team. We had this awful green kit, this really horrible green kit, with a thick white collar, but we just loved it. I had my first pair of football boots, and I remember putting my little shin pads on, and just the whole thing is really vivid. Just getting on the pitch, and the whistle blowing for that first game, it was just amazing. 

Sadly, what actually happened is parent and coach on that other team obviously realised that there was a girl, and shouted across the pitch insisted that I be made to leave. That was the first time, that I realised I was a girl and it was a thing, as in a problem. 

How old were you then?

I was seven or eight. 

What was it about the sport that you loved do you think, that made you want to play football rather than other sports?

I really don’t know, because there are not really many people in my family, I mean boxing there is an obvious connection, but not with football. So, I honestly do not know. 

I did have girls which were friends, but they were doing like hopscotch, which lacked appeal to me, they were doing a thing with elastic bands, even less so, and having weddings which I definitely wasn’t interested in. 

So, I don’t know, I really don’t know what it was. I just loved everything about it, I loved watching it, playing it, being with my friends, just the whole thing, everything it entailed me. 

How did boxing become a part of your life?

My Dad was a boxer, and my grandad was a boxer, and was running our gym by the time I came along, so it was very much part of my family and me and my dad when I visited him on the weekends would always be watching Rocky, which I thought was real, I thought it was a true story as you do when you’re a kid. 

I was a big Rocky fan, and I thought he was a real boxer, and yeah it just started with that really, me and my dad watching the old fighters Mohammed Ali and Sugar Ray, and messing around in the front room, sort of getting the gloves on, messing about and stuff.

So, that is really how it started, and then they took me to the gym, which I just absolutely loved, from the first time I went in. From everything, from the environment, the atmosphere, the hard work everyone put in, the characters that filled the gym, I just loved it. 

My Dad was a boxer, I never had the draw to box, or wouldn’t even have contemplated it, so it is interesting that it felt so natural to you at that young age?

Absolutely, and back then boxing wasn’t really a thing for fitness, you either went to the gym to be a boxer, or you didn’t go in the gym. I knew, if I was going in there, I was going to compete, and that is what I assumed would happen, and then it didn’t quite work out like that for a long time. 

It does feel like you fell in love with two sports, where you couldn’t sort of compete as a girl, so how did that make you feel at the time as a young woman? 

I think that first instance of being made to leave pitch in football had more of a confusing impact, because I was so young, I couldn’t articulate how it felt being made to leave the pitch. Obviously, looking back I know I felt humiliated and ashamed really, but I didn’t know what those words meant at the age. I just felt bad, and I felt like there was something wrong with me. 

So, of course I went home and I asked my mum to cut my hair short so that I could pretend to be a boy and play in the team, and I didn’t think much of it until all the kids started to say ‘why do you want to be a boy’, and I never wanted to be a boy, I just wanted to play football, and at the time that was the only way. So, that started to become an issue.

Then in boxing, I got to the age of eleven when you can usually start boxing. There was a small group of us that always did everything together, obviously they were lads, because I was the only girl in the gym. We had done this golden glove thing, which is where you demonstrate the basics of boxing, and you get a certificate, and a little medal, and I did the whole course, but then wasn’t allowed to go for the medal and the certificate. I was like why, they said oh girls can’t do it. 

It was weird to me, because none of my family kind of put restrictions on me, I didn’t put any on myself, and I was a bit like so what is going on here. It started to enter my consciousness, and then when I got into secondary school, and I was doing the boxing and the football, that is when other name calling came in, like shim, female boy, it was as if people thought, if I wanted to do so called boys sports, I must therefore want to be a boy, and I didn’t. 

It took me a while to be conscience of it, and then when I was, I really internalised it, and I felt like there was something wrong with me, and that lasted, I have to say, for a very, very long time. 

Was that boys and girls? 

Yes, absolutely, I think it was equally difficult for people to understand where to quite place me. Teachers seem to find it quite difficult, if I ever misbehaved, which I did, I was a very, very hyperactive energetic kid, so I got in trouble a lot, and quite frequently they would question my sexuality. 

So interestingly, the kids didn’t, they assumed I must want to be a boy, but with teachers they would say oh confusion about your sexuality, maybe this is what is causing these, and I’d be like I don’t know what you’re talking about.

It was interesting I couldn’t just be a girl who liked those sports, I must be something else, which is the default setting of course. 

You are clearly such an amazing athlete, so did it not come to point where you thought, oh I can play netball or hockey, or athletics, or other sports, where you ever tempted by those?

I did other sports at school, obviously as part of the PE curriculum, but just nothing gripped me like football and boxing did. I guess something it is like the people you love, who knows why, sometimes you ask yourself why do I love them! But yeah, I just loved both of those sports. 

When did you realise a really talented footballer? 

The turning point was when I was around about 14/15, my first girls’ team was Stockport County, because by then the FA, by 93, the FA had got involved in womens football. This is why, I think it is great to have mixed sports, but sometimes for girls it can be so valuable to have that session with other girls, because I remember turning up to that first training session, and thinking wow there is not just me, because here was all these little girls just like me, talking about the latest predator football boots, and shin pads, and this player, and that player, and the all had their little kits on, and I was like oh my god, here is my tribe. 

It was a wonderful feeling, to see other girls like me. So, I stayed with Stockport County, until I went to the first team at like 14 years old, and I got player of the year in my first year in senior football, and my coach wrote a letter to school. He knew I was having loads of difficulties at school, because it made me angry all the time, and I just got picked on constantly. He wrote a letter saying what talent I’ve got, what I have brought to the team, what a great team player I had been, and this, that, and the other, and that he wouldn’t be surprised if I would get an England call up within the next few years. 

They read it out in assembly, it was like a hush over everyone, like oh she is actually good at football, like regardless. I was thinking the same thing, at the same time, I was like oh this isn’t just a thing that makes me a freak, I could actually do something here. 

How great that he did that, that is fantastic that he did that, isn’t it? 

Yeah, I actually went back to visit kids at his school, he works in a school now and I went back a couple of years ago which was lovely. 

That really started some cogs turning in my head, of like right this could actually be something and then a scout from the US came to one of our games, and spoke to my coach after the game and said we really want to keep an eye on her. These things being said by other people, then started to make me think wow I could actually have some opportunities and some real possibilities in sport. 

When did you get your first England call up, how old were you then?

The first one, was for the England Under 18’s, which Hope Powell, oversaw all of the teams at the time, they didn’t have separate coaches. I went to Moss Farm, for trial, and it just went great for me, I got two assists and I scored three goals across the games. Then a few weeks later we got our letters, and I was the only one out of the six that didn’t get picked, and I was like 16, to say I was devastated, is quite an understatement. 

My coach rang up for feedback, and said you know I was there, she just played great, what is going on, and they said oh she came out of position too much, she wasn’t disciplined enough in staying in position. I was just absolutely heartbroken, and all it did really was make me more determined. 

So, after that I read loads of stuff on staying in position, and what position I should be in, and tucking in, and doing this, and doing that, and then really upped my training, and I thought right I need to be in the Premier League, and that is when I made the decision to move. 

So, ultimately it was a good thing, and then the actual call-up came when I was 17, and then I went off to the European Championships which, I mean what a phenomenal team we had.  I mean many of the name which are well known, Casey Stoney was in that team, Rachel Unitt, Farah Williams, Amanda Barr, exceptional players and people. 

I spoke to Casey on the podcast, and her story is quite similar, in terms of not getting selected that then drove her to having the most extortionary fitness, to show everyone what she could do. So, a similar pathway there, and a great message for young people to know that at first if you don’t get that selection, to work hard? 

This is something that I have had to learn over a long career of sport, certain lessons it teaches you. One of them, is to really try and not have all of your self-worth wrapped up in your sport, and it is a tough lesson to learn, and you kind of have to keep going back to it. But, if not then times like that when you don’t get selected, it can feel like you have failed and you are a failure. 

My whole world felt like it had ended. It has happened again, and again, and I have had to keep going back to that thing, it is just something that I do, and I love, it is not everything I am. I am not a failure if something doesn’t work out in sport. 

It is a good lesson to learn early on, but its tough because, you don’t have the phycology to figure it out. I think if you learn more about sports phycology that is really helpful, and I wish I had of known a bit more about sport phycology when I first went to England because I think it would have really helped me. 

Now looking back, I can see loads of the self-talk wasn’t helpful, loads of the negative thoughts that I let in weren’t helpful, but I didn’t know that at the time, I was 17. 

In terms of people’s perception of the womens game at the time, tell us about the reaction of your work place, when you went in, when you got that call up?

I worked in a factory type, warehouse thing at the time, and when I got that first letter, I meant that was wow. I mean, it has the three lions on it, I guess they get an email now, but back then you got a letter, and it said we are delighted to tell you, and that is all I read, and then I was bouncing up and down, and I thought I better read the rest of it. I read it, and I kept reading it over and over again to make sure It was right. 

So, I took this into my boss because I needed the week off to play at the European Championships, and there were no holidays left on the rota, so I went to see him and I said right I need a week off but there is no availability. He said, oh what for, so I kind of pass him this later, and I’m stood there, well probably floating really, bursting with excitement. He takes a minute, and he doesn’t really say anything, and then he says hmm so you want me to give you a week off to play for a womens football team, in exactly that tone. So I said well, it is the England Womens football team, and he made all these jokes, these innuendos, and I just kind of stood there and I said look it really means a lot to me, can I just take it as unpaid, to which he agreed. 

I walked out of that office, feeling really small, really silly to be honest, for thinking it was such a big deal to play for the England Womens Football team, not the England football team. I didn’t tell any of my colleagues, I didn’t tell anyone else, and it actually impacted me when I was stood there for the anthem, I remember thinking well it is not the proper England football team, nobody thinks it is the same, and I shouldn’t have let that happen, but then again I was influenced by things that other people were saying. 

Now, when I look back on that I know we cant change every person like that sat behind that desk, men and women, in some cases, but I see my job as trying to make sure that any, particularly young person, that comes out of any interaction like that, that they don’t leave that interaction feeling small like I did, and that they can still feel proud of who they are despite the attitudes of others, but I didn’t know that at the time, and it very much impacted me. 

When we see those amazing celebrations when the Lionesses found out they were playing, that is really reassuring thing isn’t it, how that has changed across that decade, in terms of the call up and people realising it is as valid as the men’s team? 

Absolutely, I’d have to say the last couple of world cups I have felt very emotional watching them. I remember the one in Canada, I remember sitting at I think it was my mums house, watching the game in the front room. There was a moment towards the end when the commentators were talking and Sue Smith was part of it, who I played with at Tranmere, who was my room-mate, just a phenomenal player and a wonderful human being. 

And a great commentator… 

She is, she is excellent, and I was thinking wow, and she was talking a little about what it was like before and what it is like now. I just thought back to what it was like then, and I don’t know it was just like a rush all at once of all those memories, being with Sue Smith in those teams, and everything we tried to do, and people mocking us, and now looking at where they were, and the last world cup was the same, and thinking of that situation with my manager, and now all these massive corporations falling over themselves to support the team, and it just makes me very, very emotional. I just think, wow, this is all of our journeys. 

The girls on the pitch at that one time, it is there moment of course, but all of us are part of that, because we all believed it was possible. 

You obviously had a great time playing in the UK, playing at Doncaster Bells, trial blazing team in England, and then you went out to the US, a bit later perhaps, you didn’t go when you were initially scouted, but at 22 you went out there. So, can you tell us a little bit about that? 

Yeah, so I loved being at Donny Bells, I absolutely loved every second, wearing that shirt with great pride, and part of team. To be honest, it was a change in my personal life because we had just a year before that, had a family tragedy, which resulted in a nine-month court trial, the whole thing was just horrendous. 

I ended up not being able to live in my house where I lived with my boyfriend at the time, I was staying in my car, looking back, I mean I don’t know how I did it. Sometimes I would drive Doncaster, sleep over night in my car, get up and get on a bus to Arsenal, and It was just what I did at the time, and after the trial, it was just such a devastating time, I knew I needed a brand new start in my life. 

So, I thought right sport is the gift that I have been given, let’s see if I can use it. So, I stated contacting some of the schools over there, and I thought I would be too old, but as it turns out, I was for Division One, but not for Division Two. I started getting these offers, and I thought right let’s go. 

I remember that morning, I had £200 in my pocket, and one suitcase full of football stuff and I thought what am I doing, what am I doing? Honestly, the fear, I was absolutely petrified, I was just thinking I didn’t know anybody, I didn’t know what I was going into, I had nothing to come back to if it didn’t work out, and I thought really what am I doing. 

My Dad got to the door, and I was like Dad what am I doing? And, he was like it is going to be fine, get in the car, and obviously we went and me and him had a massively emotional goodbye at the airport, and it was awful, and off I went and it was a life changing phenomenal experience for me, not just as a player, who then developed into a leader, but as a human being. 

Where did you go, and what did you study?

 I started off in South Carolina, and then transferred to a team in Austin in Texas, which is a fantastic city, and much more what I’m use to, South Carolina was a big cultural shift for me. I moved there, and their university had been founded by The Holy Cross Fathers, and I’m not religious at all, but I really brought into that servitude for others, because I was big on that anyway, sort of having a positive impact, and using sport for good. 

I loved it, I loved the atmosphere and the environment, so I ended up being over there for 5 years, and I studied sociology. Turns out, I quite like education!

How was womens football viewed at the time when you were there? Was it very different to what you had experienced in England? 

Yeah, because I actually saw less of an issue with it. I think, because it is not their national sport, like ice hockey, baseball, basketball and American football, it’s viewed upon differently for men, that is the key thing. 

So, quite often the question is how is it viewed differently for women, I think it was because it was viewed differently for men, that makes it different for women if that makes sense. So, I found it quite equal, and of course the big impact was Title IX, and when I learnt about that, and that happened in 1972, all those men and women that fort for the right for women sport to have equal funding in institutions in America, I mean that had a massive impact on me, because I thought wow, all of those men and women, who have fort for the right for me to benefit from this opportunity now, I don’t know them, they don’t know me, but they fort for that, I have got that opportunity, and that wasn’t lost on me. I thought I need to make the most of this opportunity for what they did, and I also need to make sure I am doing as much as I can for the next generation, just like those who have done before me. 

Without the likes of Jane Couch, and her solicitors, I wouldn’t have been able to box, without Title IX I wouldn’t have been able to go the America and play football, and I think there is all these people that have made things possible for us, I’ve just felt compelled to try and do my bit for the next generation in the same way. 

You had a nasty injury in your senior year there, so how did that effect you perhaps more than other injuries in the past? 

Massively, collectively I have had 12 broken bones, eight surgeries. Mostly due to sport, but one due to a ball pool, that I shouldn’t have jumped in, and one falling down the stairs because I was trying to do the crane out of karate kid on the top banister when I was 10. Not recommended. 

But, mostly the rest of them have been through sport, but that last one you’re quite right, was very, very different. I think for a few reasons, it was my senior year, which is prestigious over there, it is a big thing to get to your senior year. We had a fantastic team, atmosphere, team chemistry, I was at my happiest that I had ever been in my life, and the transition from what I had just been through when I got to America, and where I was as a human being to then, thriving in life was a huge step. 

So, everything felt great, we had a brilliant first four games in the season. Then came this tackle, and I broke my tibia, so the bone on the outside of my shin, which I knew it was painful at the time, but I didn’t know it was broken, so I kept running about on it for the next few days, feeling really rather sick with agony, and then we had the scan and I was like oh right that is why because it is broken. 

So, I wore a boot for the whole season, and then I got back for the last four games somehow, and I scored the penalty that put us through to the Sweet Sixteen National Championships, and of we went to California, again just an absolute dream, fairy-tale coming true for a working class kid from Manchester, to be flying to California to play in a US Championship, it was incredible. 

At the end of the game, I hit the post with about, I think it was 34 seconds left to go on the clock, or something like that, then we went to penalty’s and my penalty got saved, and then they score theirs, which put them straight through. I felt bizarrely, really betrayed by the sport that I had loved, and given everything to all my life. 

I never, ever felt the same again, it was like a had been madly in loved in a marriage, and then walked in and it had cheated on me. Really bizarre, but that is exactly how it felt, and I felt completely cheated and betrayed by the thing that I loved most in my life, and I couldn’t believe football had done that to me, it just felt to un-fair to frame in any other perspective, and I didn’t to be honest get over it. I still played, I finished my spring season in America, and I still went to Sweden to play because I had already committed to that, and my best friend from America was going with me, so we went together. 

Still had a brilliant experience, still loved playing, but it was not the same at all. I think I would have carried on playing football, if I didn’t have any other options, but boxing has always been something I really wanted to do, and honestly within days, I started thinking the only way I can go forward is to know that there is something else after, and it can’t be football, I just felt different forever. 

Did you consider staying in the US, and boxing in the US?

There was two key things for me, one if was going to box, and really wanted my Dad to be my coach, and the second thing is, my first niece had just been born,  and I just felt that I had never known a love like that, ever, and I wanted to be here to be part of her life. 

Those are the two big reasons that I came home, and I’m glad I did. 

How did your family react to your decision to come back and to box again?

Well, I came back for a very short time, and then went over to Sweden, and finished my playing career there, then I went travelling around Europe for a bit, just for a couple of weeks with my American friend, and then she went back, and I met up with my Dad in Café Rouge in Deansgate in Manchester, and we had these in depth chats that we always have, and he said what an amazing experience, and this that and the other, so guess you’ll be getting ready to settle down now, and I said settle down, what are you talking about? And he said well you know, and I said no dad, no and he said so what is your plan then, and I said I’m going to box, and he went what? And I said I’m going to box, a couple of years ago when I was home for the summer from America, I was to watch in Manchester, The Womens National Finals, it was like the quarter finals or whatever, and I loved, and I think I can be as good as them, I think I can do it, I’m not too old yet, I need to do it now, but I can do it, I never lost that hunger and desire, and now I have got the chance, to go for it and finally be a boxer. 

He just didn’t say much at all, and then he rang me a couple of days later, and said right I’ve been having a thing about it, and if you want to box, then alright, and I said Dad, I wasn’t asking, I was telling you, that’s what I am going to do, daughters like me they tell their dads what is happening. 

He was like right I want to be your coach if that is alright, and I want to try and make you the best you can be, and lets go on the journey together, and we did, and what a fabulous journey we had as dad and daughter. What wonderful memories we will have forever, thankfully. 

What do you think that’s made that relationship with your dad, and him being your coach work so well?

Do you know, it is difficult, because there are so many boxers predominantly males with their fathers, and it just doesn’t work at all, it really doesn’t. But, for us, it did, I mean we have always had a really, really, close relationship anyway, even though my parents were divorced before I was one, because my Dad had got a really serious eye injury which stopped his career right in its tracks, when he had just turned professional, and I was born around about that time, and I was actually born in London for that reason, because he went there to be pro, so by the time they got back I think it had just destroyed their marriage, they were both really young, and couldn’t cope with that sort of thing. 

I only saw him at the weekends, but he still had an enormous impact on my life, and he never stopped. He made sure he came to see me every single weekend, and never let me down, he was a fantastic dad. We had a really close relationship, so I think that helped, but I respected him as a coach, we have got a very similar style, I like his coaching style, I like his boxing style, and it just really worked for us.

We saw every minute in the gym together as an absolute privilege, that we never thought we would have because it wasn’t legal when I was a kid obviously. You know we got to travel around together, we got to win the national title together, which that was a really special one because we were the first father and daughter to both win a senior ABA National Title, so that was a really special moment for us. 

I guess the answer to your question is, at heart we are friends, we are very, very close friends, so I think that is where it worked, and I trusted him. I absolutely trusted him, which in any sport is important but in boxing it is very, very important, and I really trusted him. 

He was my coach throughout my whole amateur career, other than when I was with obviously the national team. 

How did that feel, your first amateur fight, having waited two decades, and told it wasn’t legal? How did that finally feel? 

Oh, wow. It felt great, until about two weeks before it and then the nerves kicked in. It was horrendous, I have never known nerves like it. Oh, my goodness me, it was awful. It was like electricity going through every vein in my body that is the only way I can describe it. The nerves were unbelievable. 

The fear of what, the fear of clearly getting punched in the face, but the fear of what was it do you think? 

No, not really you know, it is not really that. I think it’s just your natural instinct, your natural adrenaline, it is obviously your brains job to protect you from danger, whatever that danger might be. 

People can get just as nervous, I mean I do a lot of public speaking, and people describe to me how they felt when they’ve had to do public speaking, and it is no different to when I’ve boxed. So, it is not the physical fear, I think it is the fear you could get humiliated, you could lose, you could not as be as good as you wanted to be, there is loads of thing I guess that you fear, and it is your brains job to say right there is a risk ahead, don’t do it. 

It was odd because I had never come across that before, I hadn’t had that in football. Only for penalty’s but you only have that for five seconds as you take the walk up, so it is not weeks in advance. 

In football, all I wanted to do was play, and I couldn’t wait for the game, whereas with boxing for the first few fights I’d be really looking forward to it, and then it would come to the week of the fight and I wouldn’t want to do it, but I knew I did if that makes sense. But, of course, I learnt that was my brains way of trying to protect me, and I had to override that and say, I know you’re doing your job, but you’re not really helping me right now, I’ve got this job to go and do, this is what I have trained for, this is who I want to be. I asked for this personal challenge, and I guess it is like anyone people who endeavour to do these huge cycling across Europe, or whatever it might be, when they reach those real challenges, when they are exhausted, they’re aching, they are sore, that is when they say, the same things to themselves, you asked for this challenge, you’ve got to find a way through it, but nerves were incredible. 

Funnily enough, on the day I woke up and I just switched in my mind. I said right, you have waited all your life to do this, are you actually going to let it pass you by in a flurry of nerves, and not even remember it? Embrace it, get on with it, this is what you wanted, so get out there and get it done, and I did. 

It was still horrible, I did the first round, and I got back to the corner, and I was like dad oh my god, and he was like I know, you’re going to be fine, you’ll get through it. It was only three, two-minute rounds, but it was the longest six minutes of my entire life, but yeah, just a great feeling. 

It helped that I won I think, that spurred me on a bit, and that was it then, I went from there and it was just great to have my dad and my grandad in my corner as well. 

Why did you choose to become professional? 

So, that came about because in 2014 I went to the European Championships, and I won a silver medal there. For a start to be there, with that medal round my neck, watching my countries flag be raised, having been band from the sport as a kid was just unbelievable, then to find out that I wouldn’t be able to go and even try and qualify for the Olympics, that I couldn’t go to the Commonwealth Games or the European Games because they didn’t have equal weight categories from women, was devastating, really devastating. 

To not even have the chance to go to those prestigious tournaments, and that is just because of gender and that isn’t right. 

So, I kind of set my sights on the next World Championships and European, which were every 2 years for women, every year for men, so by the time that came around, I had spent the whole two years, just building up to that. So I’d had a brilliant 2015, won the national title, the multi-nations tournament, everything, and I was three months out from the European’s and I had a routine knee injury, like a meniscus tear, so you should be back four to six weeks after surgery, so I expected to still be back, it was going to be tight, but I knew I could do it to get back for the European’s, and then unfortunately they made a mistake in the surgery and I woke up with a secondary degree chemical burn, all over one of my legs which was just horrendous. 

I knew straight away when I woke up, because it was horrific pain. I don’t know if you have ever had a burn, but it is awful, not like any breaks or anything else I’ve had, and they kind of just said it is just a graze, go home, and it just got worse and worse. It blistered, it got infected, I was rushed off to hospital, I had to go to the burns unit, so I was very, very quickly in quite serious trouble with the muscle, the leg, it was really bad, so it was actually about six months before I could do any training because of the risk of infection. I had to have dressings on it constantly, I couldn’t walk. 

A few months after that, I started thinking, I don’t think I’m going to be able to box again. I mean I was 34 by then, and I thought how am I going to get back from this, I just couldn’t see it. As I started to think about coming back, I thought I don’t want to go for the European’s and the Worlds again, it wasn’t giving me that tingle that you need, that excitement, I thought the national championships, it is probably going to be the same people that I boxed last time, but then when I started thinking about turning professional, it was that equal. Every morning when I woke up, half excitement, half fear, and that is what I need. I need that fear and excitement mix, and amateur boxing wasn’t giving me that anymore, and pro was and I thought, that’s why I need to do it. 

So, again, as has often been the case, you don’t know why these things are happening at the time, you just have to believe there will be something positive at the end, and I think that ultimately was the positive outcome that I chose to turn pro. 

And, are you still boxing now and training now?

Yeah, I am. Professional boxing has been a definite tough road, as it is for men and women, it is a very weird business, it is a very, very strange sport at the professional level. 

I went to get my licence which is an interesting experience, because you are generally in front of a panel of men, and every letter I got from the boxing board was addressed to Mr Copeland. So, when I went for the interview, first of all they said so has got any questions, and I said yeah, can you please address me as Miss, because Mr Copeland retired a very long time ago, and they were like oh right we didn’t realise, and they asked a question at the end of it, and they said so you’re 34 years old why now? So I said well I can wait till I’m 35 if you want, but it seems a bit silly, and they were really wanting to get into why I have not done this earlier, and nobody really said anything, and I was like right well this is why I have had to wait so long then. 

So that was that, and we had all sorts of problems at the fights, security guards not letting me up into the changing rooms, I was like I’m a boxer, and they were like oh come on love, and I was like no, I am a boxer. Then we had, you would have to warm up in the toilets because we have no changing room for you, you can’t warm up with the men. It is not like everyone is walking round with no clothes on, you’re just warming up, like anybody else. 

Anyway, there were a few problems, but then we got to the point where there was talk of this commonwealth title fight in Zimbabwe, do we arranged an eight round fight before that so I could get some rounds in, and that fight cost a lot of money, because you know to get a fighter to go eight rounds, to come over from a foreign country, costs a lot, you’ve got flights, hotel, their purse fee, so a lot of that was my own money,  and on the night of the fight, ten minutes before we were due to walk out, the whole show was cancelled because sadly there has been a stabbing in the lobby. Which as just horrendous, it should never happen at any event, and I thought what is doing on here, this is going to ruin everything. So that was another moment where everything seems to stop, and you are like no, no this is not how it was meant to play. Then three days later, I got the phone call about Zimbabwe, so again it went from a real low, to just this real high of getting this opportunity to go there and going to Zimbabwe was just up there with my pro debut. 

My pro debut was so special, because I never thought I’d get that moment as a kid, like I said I use to cut a slice of a cucumber and make my own little gum shield and be running around the house saying ‘I’m going to be a world champion’, but it wasn’t even legal for us to box then, and yet there I was making my actual professional debut and they key to that was controlling my emotions, because all of my friends and family were there, it was in my home city of Manchester, Manchester bomb attack had been just three weeks before, and as part of my ring walk song I had the Tony Walsh poem this is the place, so it was just a hugely emotional occasion, and a dream come true, something I thought would never happen. 

But, Zimbabwe was right up there with that because I mean going to Zimbabwe was just phenomenal, I had always wanted to go the Africa anyway. We visited loads of schools whilst we were there, it was just phenomenal, and on the night, it was without a doubt the toughest fight I had ever had. I mean she was real unit; she really was a tough, tough opponent. Of course, we won, I became the first women to win the commonwealth title which a lot of that was luck of the timing, but very grateful to have done it. 

It was a massive relief I think at the time, and I cried my eyes out, but it was a big thing there, over one hundred million people watched It because it was on for free, and no British person of any gender had boxed in Zimbabwe for 36 years before that, so it was a big thing, and it was live streamed back home, so everyone watched it, and of course the thing about that was, It was a massive high, but then I didn’t get a belt which was a huge low I have to say. 

Can you tell us about, can you just explain why? 

Yeah, of course. I had boxed on the Friday night, I got back Monday morning, I was back at work because I was working at the school full time then, I rand the head of the commonwealth boxing council when I got back from school that afternoon on the Monday, and I said it was a fantastic experience, it was wonderful, but obviously I didn’t get a belt, I want to know what’s happened. 

Saw I actually knew on the Wednesday before the fight, that there wouldn’t be belt, and the promoters were trying to get one from somewhere, so we weren’t sure up until last minute if there would be one or not. I thought, I’ve just got to get on with it and win the title, and he said oh I can explain  what has happened, the manufacturers of the replica belt have ceased production, so I said okay, what has that got to do with me, and he said well we have replica belts for women, and real belts for men, really mater of fact. So, I said wow, why is that? He said oh well there is more money in men’s boxing, I said I know but surely if it meant not having the belt, I should have been given the option of having it, even if it meant buying it with my own money, because I’m never going to get that moment back. 

I thought the worst moment would be straight after in the ring, because not having that belt, for me and my coach to have that moment, that’s the whole point. We are never going to have those memories now, and that moment. 

I thought that would be the worst thing, and it wasn’t. It was actually coming home, because everyone was so excited to see this belt, and I just didn’t have the heart to tell them that there wasn’t a belt, because I didn’t want to put a dampener on things, but they had all come to surprise me and my coach at the airport, and it was absolutely horrible to get there and not have that belt to share with them. It was really, really horrible. 

One, because I really wanted to share it with them, but two because I knew that was just because of my gender, that it wouldn’t have happened to a male competitor, and it just felt so unfair again, that why should you have to feel that not as good as the other, the inferior, again, and again? 

So, I explained this to him, I said there is nothing we can do about that now. How quickly can I have a real belt, so he said well you can have one within a couple of weeks, but they’re quite expensive so unless you’ve got a sugar daddy, you probably wont be able to have one, and I said I beg your pardon, and he said well you know someone to buy it for you, and I said yes I know what I means, but why on earth have you said that to me, well I didn’t mean it in that way, and I said well what way did you mean, I said I have worked throughout my entire sports career, I have had to, and I’m proud to have done so, I have done jobs that I believe have meaning, and make a difference in the world, and I’m  proud to have done that, fancy seeing that to me, I can’t believe it, I’m a professional athlete who has just been to make history and this bit of the conversation was a bit kind of awkward. I said right, it has been said now, but you know this can never happen to a future female champion, we need to do something to make sure there is a belt in the future. 

So, fair play they agreed to make a womens commonwealth title belt, which I got in the December, I got the first ever one in 2018, and now it is available. I am very impatient for changes, and I know you are, and every single person that comes on this podcast, that is precisely why we are here, we are trying change things. 

So, we are impatient for that, however, I do recognise we do have to allow space for that change to happen, I have changed in a lot of things that I think over the years, about women too, we are not exempt and immune to it, we are women that have been brought up being taught that women are not as good as, so you believe that, I believed that, until I challenged it and became more aware, and I was like no, women are fantastic at running, law, and everything else as well as just sport, I had to learn that as well, and that is why I want to share it particularly with young people. 

Are things changing in boxing to make things fairer for women in terms of categories and opportunities and things, is It moving fast enough for you?

It is not moving fast enough for me, but things are changing, and I know that with boxing in particular it is a sport that some people don’t like full stop, they don’t like anyone doing it. So that, is an extra layer of difficulty really because some people don’t like men or women doing it, and I understand that. I totally appreciate why people, don’t like watching it, don’t like seeing it, totally understand that. 

As for women doing it, in terms of sport, it challenges societies definition of femininity almost more than any other sport does. So, it is particularly a difficult one to move people’s perceptions on. However, what we do know about sport, whatever form, whatever type of sport it is, is that if we see women excelling, and women portrayed in a positive light and being positive role models, it effects every other aspect of society. I know that to be true. Boxing needn’t be any different. 

Actually, if the argument is about the physical aspect of it, we are actually far less powerful naturally, because women are, trained women that is, and trained men, not every woman and every man. If a man doesn’t train, they seem to think in some cases they would beat Serna Williams at tennis and stuff, and you’re like alright, okay. That is where they get a bit confused, but yeah physically we are not as damaging in the sport as men are, it tends to be more technical then the men’s game. 

So yeah, it is definitely getting better but for me it is part of the bigger discussion, that on the inspiration days we have had for pave the way, we have had female piolets that have come in and told us, that when they have done the announcements at the beginning, people have come in and refused to fly with them, and said I can’t be flown by a women, and that is how engrained it is in us that we are incapable of certain things, it is amazing, and that is something we all need to work hard to change. 

Can you tell us a bit about pave the ways?

Absolutely yeah, so when I turned professional, I didn’t have a natural boxing nickname, because they tend to be like the hitman, the assassin, the cobra, the whatever, and my nickname is SpongeBob SquarePants. This is because every time I have been injured and put weight on, I have turned into a square shaped human being, I literally am square when I put weight on. 

So, my friends lovingly call me SpongeBob, so that wasn’t a great nickname for a boxer, so I decided to go with something that I stood for, and meant something to me, and that was pave the way. Predominantly at the beginning it was about paving the way for others girls and women in my sport, and in other sports. 

So, after my debut it was womens sports week, do you remember it was a thing they use to do for one week of the year, when everyone use to shout about womens sport, and forget it for the other 51 weeks. It was actually the last womens sport week that they did, and I had done loads of other people’s projects for it, and I wanted to do my own. So, we made pave the way, a one-week project where I visited loads of schools, community groups, we did a photography expedition of women who work in sport, because I think athletes are a lot more visible now, but women who work in sport, you never hear of them, people don’t know. 

I wanted young girls to know that if you’ve got a love for sport, but maybe not competitive, or it is not a sport that can be a livelihood, any skill or interests you’ve got can apply, it can be a career in sport. So, that is now on permanent display at the national cycling centre. 

That was it really, we just did it for a week, and suddenly this hashtag seemed to catch on and people were saying pave the way, my daughter or son has done this ‘pave the way’, and I thought maybe we need to do a bit more with this. 

So I had it on my kit anyway, and it has changed in two ways over the last few years, one is that through all the public speaking that I have done it has become quite apparent to me that my experience in sport is not exclusive to women in sport, it is women in law, women in tech, women in construction, you name it , that come to me after these talks and say that is exactly my story. So, I thought it ought not to just be about sport then, it needs to be about other industries, and then as times gone on, I have loads of parents contact me saying they have got sons who do things like singing or ballet or whatever and they have been picked on that much because it challenges masculinity, that they have actually given up, I think that is just dreadful. 

For me, that moment when I was asked to leave the pitch, could have been the moment when I said right this isn’t for me, and imagine my life with out sport. I wouldn’t have gone to America, or Sweden or Brazil to play, you take away sport from my life, its unthinkable. So, the fact that these things, these passions, are being taken away from these children, at an early age, it is not good enough, and I can’t settle that. 

So pave the way has become about more than sport, all industries and aspects of life really, and about both genders, because really gender isn’t the problem is it, it is masculinity and femininity things that we put alongside gender that is the problem, and it is as much a stigma for boys, as girls in some cases. 

We applied for charity status nine months ago, and we just got it six weeks ago which was a massive milestone for us, so we are getting to work now. It is not the ideal time to start anything really in a pandemic, but good things come out or a crisis sometimes and that’s the way we are looking at it. 

Talking about I guess gender and perception, I know as a straight woman, you have been an amazing advocate for the LGBT community and causes, does it still concern you that people assume you’re a lesbian because you box, you play football etc?

It concerns me because when I was younger, I didn’t understand much about sexuality when I was a teenager, I wasn’t even thinking about it, I just wanted to play football and box and just be a kid. 

When these things started to come up, particularly from adults, like I say it was predominately from the adults, rather than the kids. It was confusing to me, and I thought well the kids are saying do I want to be a boy, what am I? Is it me? I just thought that I was happy being a girl playing these sports, and I thought am I something that I don’t think I am? Do I want to be a boy? It was really, really confusing, because these are messages, I was getting all the time. 

So, it doesn’t bother me now, personally, but it annoys me because I remember that young girl that I was, and all of those other young girls are facing that, as do boys. You know they get questioned about their sexuality, for doing something that questions masculinity, and it can be really confusing as a youngster. 

For example, I remember, sexuality wasn’t discussed in the Under 14’s team, kids weren’t even aware of it, I work in a school one day a week now, and they know about transgender, they know about gender fluid, they are really informed, back then we weren’t. But, when I went into the first team, there were loads of openly gay women, and I was like right, people are calling me names and saying I’m like them, so is there something wrong with them or is there something wrong with me? There was all this stuff to work out, hopefully kids now don’t have that because we are so much more informed about the LGBT community which is fantastic, and that is why it annoys me because the stigma that goes with these things, that there shouldn’t be anyway obviously, be we still have an element of it, and it can be an extra layer of confusion for young people. 

That was exactly the same experience for my friends, who were gay. I wasn’t as it happens, but they were trying to figure things out at the time as well, am I gay, am I not, they were going through  that, and getting the same  messages, that, one, it wasn’t okay to be gay, and two, if you’re a women in sport what does that mean. It just confuses the whole thing, and it is happened since, I got a phone call just last year, I was sat on a train with my mum going to London, and I got a phone call from somebody saying can you speak at this event, really, really lovely women, and no ill-intent meant by it but we had this whole conversation about sport, and women, and gender, and then she said can you come and speak at this event, and said yeah, I’ll happily speak, and she said I think it will be great because as a female athlete who is out and proud, it will be great to have you, and I said oh, wait a minute I’m not out and proud, and she said are you not proud, and I said no I’m not, not proud, I’m just not gay, I’ll happily come and speak as an advocate because that is really important, but I can’t speak authentically as a gay person, because I’m not, but I’ll happily be an advocate. She was like, oh and she went really quiet and then she said oh well lots of people think you’re gay, and I said oh do they, well my boyfriend doesn’t, who I happen to have a great relationship with and its bizarre. 

You spoke out very boldly, and very articulately around the whole demise of good girls, walk on girls, etc, which is 18 months ago now, and I can remember driving back from an event, and pulling the car over to listen to your hour on radio five, you were just so calm and articulate about it. Why did you feel so strongly at the time that you wanted to stand up and voice your opinions in that space?

Well, I felt strongly about ring side girls from the beginning because the only time I saw women in my sport, was dressed in very sexual outfits, with a piece of cardboard with a number on it, walking around a ring, and that bothered me, because it took as so long to get the right to box, and I know as a female boxer I’m not as excepted as the males, despite doing all the same training as them, dedicated my life to it, yet somebody who is there for sexual appeal is. 

There is something wrong with that picture for me. Plus, from going to a lot of boxing events in an age where we are trying to teach boys about respect for women, consent, all of that, rightly so, to them to what is a sport event, not a lap dancing club, not a gentlemen’s club, but sports event, where people are shouting extremely sexualised, crude and in my opinion quite vile things, and it is totally socially expectable, and really those boys are watching those male role models act like that in a sport environment, and to me that is not what sport is, at all. 

I wasn’t a fan of it, so I have never had ring card girls from the start of my career. I had kids who were into boxing, mascots, just like we have at Wimbledon, just like we have at football, and I think at Wimbledon we suddenly changed that and had court girls or net girls or whatever we would call them, we would be saying what is going on, if we had it at the Olympics or in football, just because it has always been that way in my sport, doesn’t mean it is right. 

It is exactly that question, challenge it change it thing, my approach with pave the way. Quite often, if you don’t question things, they stay the same, and they need to change. When all this came out about grid girls, it was all over the internet, and somebody tagged me in it, and said it is the same in boxing, but Stacey Copeland doesn’t have ring side girls, she has kids as mascots, and put a picture of me with some of my mascots. 

Then the BBC contacted me, and said would you be prepared to come on, and have a discussion about it tomorrow. I thought about it, and I said right I’ll do it, and that morning I felt as sick as I do having a fight, because I knew there would probably be a massive backlash, and there was, but it was worth it because I believe that I’m on the right side of history with this, and my hope is that when Ruby is older, she is already seeing images, the only women she see’s at the Tour de France, are stood either side of the male, giving him a peck on the cheek, you know there is one on each side giving him a peck on the check, and they hold that leg up at the back, and stand like this and that is it, that is the representation that she has got of women at the Tour de France because we have still able to do the Tour de France as women. 

In darts, in boxing, in all of these sports, she is only seeing women in that role, and I want her to grow up not seeing that, and I want her to look back on these things, and say auntie Stacey, did they use to be women who use to walk around a boxing ring in a bikini, with cardboard, and a number, and I can go, yes isn’t that odd. 

That is the kind of conversation I want, I don’t want it to be yeah, we are still trying to get rid of it. So, I went on BBC breakfast, there was loads of positive I have to say, but there was a lot of negatives. 

There were those sad things that people say, I got called dike more time than I care to remember, jealous of attractive women, and this is interesting thing, I wasn’t putting myself up there saying, who doesn’t want to see this, I wasn’t not saying give me marks out of ten for how I look, yet that is how it became. Me vs them, in attractiveness, then I got the usual womens sport is rubbish anyway, the whole array of spectrum of nastiness, which if you’re not use to it is quite hard for about 48 hours, I could see how it effects peoples mental health so severely, because the onslaught of it, it is like a tsunami coming over you constantly, and it is people that don’t even know you, and you do have to talk to the people your trust and know, who can put it back into perspective, I wont name who just in case they don’t want me to, but someone from the Womens Sports Trust, messaged me on twitter and said you’re doing great, keep going, don’t let it bother you, and that message gave me such a lift, I cant begin to tell you, because sometimes you do need your people so to speak, who are on the same page, just to remind you, we agree, we are with you, it really, really helps. 

It was huge. Especially when it is people on the Womens Sports Trust, because all of you who are trustees or involved in anyway are people, we all look up too. That was all I needed to give me the strength to face a thousand bad comments. 

Speculating that Covid-19 could have a huge negative impact on womens sports, and all the progress we have made, what do you say to that?

Not if we have got anything to do with it, Sue, all of us! I think that I’m really getting annoyed with this to be honest, and we have been talking about this with the unlocked group, because obviously the unlocked campaign is a lot of very passionate athletes and activators, and we are looking at what we can do at the minute, because this is the weird thing sometimes about singling something out by gender alone, we know there is loads of men’s non-league teams, in every level of football, who are really under threat, loads of them went under way before Covid-19 happened, yet we don’t say hmm men’s football is at risk. What we mean is, some of men’s football. 

If we look at womens sport, who and what are they talking about, I think Serena Williams will be alright after all this. She won’t be struggling, so who are you talking about, like be more specific than the whole of womens sport, that is what annoying. When you’re lumped into this whole thing, and I think like with anything, if you say it over, and over, again, it becomes almost a fact, that is part of the problem almost with social media isn’t it. When it comes to really important stuff, people can just say thing again, and again and people believe it. 

Why does womens sport need to disappear? Why are we not talking about this being an opportunity for womens sport? If we are not fully relying now on gate tickets, because that is a fair argument about equal pay, if it is on the Olympic funded programme, that should absolutely be the same, for male and female athletes, no question about it, but for things that are of revenue, merchandise, ticket sales, whatever, there is going to be a difference because you can’t compare 80,000 men’s gates fees, to the 2 or 3,000 that might be at the womens. That just doesn’t make sense. 

Now that, that is not an issue, well what a great opportunity for us. We have got the BBC, 50% of their licence payer are women, why not serve that community then, whilst it is not costing you loads, to get womens sport on board, what is stopping you, what are we waiting for here? Let’s be promoting and sharing, and like you say, it doesn’t make sense to me why the channels aren’t just full of womens sport at the moment, whilst they have got all this footage that costs next to nothing to broadcast, let’s get it all on, why are we not doing that? Why are we not seizing this moment, and thinking right there’s a crisis, but we know great things can come from a crisis, so let’s seize the moment and make something great happen. 

If people in 1972 had said, oh we are never going to get this Title IX past, it’s too hard, it is too difficult,  I would never have got the opportunities, neither would thousands of other women, and that is why I know right now, the likes of you, and I, and everyone that has got some platform, and they are all different roles that we have got, but we have all got to do something to make sure we don’t let this tide overwhelm us, and we say no, that next generation is depending on us to make sure. 

Even if you can’t do it for yourself, you have got to find it within you to find a way for that next lot of young hopefuls coming through, who for them sport is going to be an amazing thing in their lives just as it has been for us. 

When you’re out there talking to young people, if you had to just summarise, what are a couple of the core messages you want to get across to them when you’re talking? 

Obviously, your general stuff, about sport, what is can do for you, what a fantastic thing it is in your life, as with any passion, but predominantly it is around my lived experience, which is gender, and my whole belief for pave the way is that gender should never be a barrier to human potential. 

I tell kids, there shouldn’t be stuff for boys, and stuff for girls, if you’re good at something, if you love it, if you’re passionate about it, you should be able to pursue it with your whole self, and that is the key message I try and get across. 

An interesting question I have started to ask when I go into schools, is if they have heard of the world ‘Tom boy’.  I’ll say, I’ve represented my country in sports, quite often people describe me with this one word, and I put the word up, and I say who has heard of this word, and you know what is really interesting, they are always seated from reception to the back, so the little one are at the front, then you get year one, year two, and then they get bigger and bigger as they go to the back, everybody at the back puts their hand up, and as you get closer to the front, there is fewer and fewer, which tells us a couple of things, one it’s a word that we acquire as we get older, it isn’t necessary for little kids, and it tells me there is a way of culturally phasing that word out, because they learnt it somewhere from reception to year six. But, it shows there must be a way that we can get rid of that word, and that girls will just do what they do, and boys will just do what they do. 

So, that is the message that I just try and get through to schools, and ultimately one of the things that really helps me, is that I’m very, very strong, and passionate about my ‘why’, and this get used a lot on memes and Instagram and whatever, if you just doing it try and build a brand it doesn’t have the same impact, but if it really is in your heart and soul like it is for me, it makes a difference in everything you do. 

For me, the key things, obviously there is a personal thing, like reaching my personal challenges in sport, but beyond that it is influencing change, so getting that message out to as many young people as possible, being the role model that I never had growing up is important, and making a positive difference. 

I’m blessed to have a love for sport, which is one of the most powerful things on earth for making a difference, and I’ll absolutely use it in every way that I can to make a positive difference whatever that may be, a bit like we have that carbon footprint, I think we have a human footprint too of the impact we have on others, and I want mine to have been a positive human footprint, and ultimately be able to go back to that little girl that I was, and tell her do you know eventually you will be proud of who you’ve become, because I wasn’t back then, I didn’t know how to feel proud of who I was, because of the messages I was getting, and I want her to know you will be someone you can be proud of, and I want her to know I have done everything I can to make things better. Ultimately, everything I say and do in primary schools, and everywhere else is because of that ‘why’, to try and make things better going forward.