Negotiate Like a Dutchie with Melanie Imming (aka "Be a Little Punk")

In this episode, we’re diving into one of my favorite topics: the art of negotiation. And I couldn’t have asked for a better guest than Melanie Imming—a Dutch consultant known for turning complex ideas into compelling stories and challenging the status quo with clarity, warmth, and courage.

Melanie and I first met in Switzerland, where I led a negotiation workshop for Open Science Retreat. She later became a coaching client, wanting to bridge cultural gaps while negotiating with a U.S.-based business partner. 

What made coaching her especially meaningful for me was that Melanie is already that person in her community—the go-to negotiation mentor. She’s known for helping internationals “negotiate like a Dutchie” by stripping unnecessary politeness out of letters, CVs, and emails so the message lands with clarity and confidence.

We talk about 

• Embracing "Dutchiness"—or directness—as a negotiation strength.
• Why and how of approaching negotiation like a dance, not a battle -- especially in the deal-making context.
• And how to have the moxie (or "a little bit of punk") to negotiate not just for the deal on the table, but for the bigger context—the values, relationships, and future outcomes that really matter.

Featured in this episode: 

• Learn about Melanie's consultancy here: https://www.immingimpact.eu/
• Learn about IM Studios here: https://www.im-studio.eu/
• Learn about coaching with Jamie here: https://www.jamieleecoach.com/apply

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Connect with me

• Book a free hour-long consultation with me. You'll leave with your custom blueprint to confidence, and we'll ensure it's a slam-dunk fit for you before you commit to working with me 1:1. 
• Connect with me on LinkedIn 
• Email me at jamie@jamieleecoach.com 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to Risky Conversations. Why? Because everything worthwhile is on the other side of a risky conversation. My name is Jamie Lee. I'm an executive coach for smart women who don't like office politics, and I help them negotiate, advocate, lead, and thrive. Today we're diving into one of my favorite topics, the art of negotiation. And I could not have asked for a better guest than Melanie Imming, a Dutch consultant known for turning complex ideas into compelling stories and challenging the status quo with clarity, warmth, and heart. Melanie and I first met in Switzerland, where I was leading a negotiation workshop at the Open Science Retreat. She later became a coaching client because she wanted to bridge cultural gaps while negotiating with a US-based business partner. And that for me, as a first-generation immigrant to the United States, that was very meaningful. And what also made the coaching really meaningful for me is that Melanie is already that woman leader, that person in her community, the go-to negotiation mentor. She's known for helping internationals quote unquote negotiate like a duchy by stripping unnecessary politeness out of letters, CVs, and emails, so the message lands with clarity and confidence. In this episode, we talk about embracing quote unquote dutchiness or directness as a negotiation strength. And could we just pause here for a moment and acknowledge that smart, capable, outspoken women often get to, you know, often tend to hear feedback that they're too direct, as if that is something that is not good. But I want to turn that on its head and talk about how directness, or in Melanie's words, her Dutchiness, is a strength, a negotiation asset. We also explore what it means to approach negotiation like a dance, not a battle. We get into what it takes to have the moxie to negotiate not just the deal on the table, but the bigger picture, the context, the actual briefing, the values, the relationships, and the future outcomes that really matter. So I think this episode would be of interest to those to executive and leader women, women who are leaders who uh need to negotiate business deals as opposed to simply salary negotiation. But of course, we touch on that too. So let's get to it. And today I am really thrilled to have you know someone I consider both my colleague, but someone who's also been my client. Melanie Imming. Welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

Thank you so much for having me, Jamie. Great to be here.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Melanie is an independent consultant from the Netherlands. She has 15 plus years experience helping leading cultural and academic organizations develop their strategy around topics like open science and digital cultural heritage. And in fact, Melanie and I met at Open Science Research, no, I'm sorry, Open Science Retreat that happened earlier this year in April in Switzerland, beautiful Beatenburg, Switzerland. And we had a wonderful time there. And what Melly does is uh she has co-founded I Am Studio with longtime friend, with her longtime friend Mateis. And she did that in 2021. And in IM Studio, they translate difficult concepts to the greater public in a combination of strategic storytelling and visual language. And most of their time is spent on uh on I am studio work, and she says that's something they didn't expect when they started.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, I was thinking that I would just do a lot of my consultancy work and then on the side a bit of uh uh projects with uh with Mazai together because we're both really into you know how can visualizations help to tell a story. Uh but it turned out a success, so now a lot of my time goes to IM Studio as well. So that is great. Wonderful. Wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

And Melanie also helps grassroots community communities professionalize. She mentors young professionals and she helps them to test out new formats to make meetings and events more meaningful. And in fact, I learned that you had organized the 2024 open science retreat, and that was in the in the Netherlands.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

Yes, that's correct.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Yeah, yeah, and I heard that was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

It was very Yeah, yeah, it's always a lot of fun. You know, put 50 young academics together, um, let them create their own agenda, and it's awesome what you can do in a week. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Right. We we uh we I learned about the on-conference model at the open science retreat, and I think you know, just as you said, you know, the participants get to decide on the themes, the agenda, the outputs. I thought it was really democratic and engaging.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

Yes, it's turning the whole concept around. So it's not top-down, but it's bottom-up. And yeah, I I the energy is just so different from your normal academic conference that uh yeah, I liked it a lot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

And I had the privilege of coming in to Open Science Retreat this year and leading a negotiation workshop. And that's where Melanie and I met. And um I talked about negotiating in your career not as a battle, not as a confrontation, but more like a dance, right? And more like a partner dance where you have to show up kind of prepared to go with the rhythm, but also you have to have your own spine strong and upright and ready to engage and go with the flow, but also ready to direct and lead. So Melanie, um uh, I I invited Melanie onto the podcast because she has a topic that's really relevant to not just entrepreneurs, but I think leaders in general. Like when you engage in uh negotiation to engage in like a long-term project, right? You don't just take it at face value, you don't just say yes, and you know, I'll do everything that you asked me to do. You have to be willing to, again, almost like a dance, engage in that back and forth and propose some new ideas. So, Melody, maybe you can, you know, tell us a little bit more about your experience when you have had to engage in those negotiations as a consultant, as the CEO of your agency, and you had to propose something altogether new to make it work.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

Yeah, to be honest, this happens a lot, and maybe it's just because I always try to better things. I don't know. Uh, but very often people come to me and they have a certain question, whether it's in my consultancy business strategy or whether it's about branding or setting up something new in IM Studio, doesn't really matter. Very often, um I feel that if I would have just said yes, we would not have gotten the impact that we wanted. And the name of my my company is Iming Impact, so yeah, that's where my focus lies. Um so very often I try to sometimes even show to them that they have a different problem than they thought. Um, and the cool thing is that very often they actually listen. And uh this is also maybe because I'm the outside consultant, so people listen to you more in that role than if you're an employee, or I don't know, but um for me it has turned out that that is very often a really, really good approach because it ensures that when you actually start doing the work together, I always see this as like okay, we now have a new team, you know, together with the people who hire me, and we do this project and I deliver certain things. Um, so if you already from the start try to get to the best proposition possible, it's so much easier to work together, whoever the the other party is, that I almost always do so. Yeah, see certain things where I think, nah, slightly different, or maybe you should first look at text before you go into the visualizations. That happens a lot as well. You know, those kind of things. So for me, the project uh usually starts when people ask me and when we have the first negotiations about the actual assignment that I will do for them.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

So it's almost like instead of negotiating the terms, we negotiate the entire context in which the deal is being made. And I like how you emphasize it's like we're coming together, and you see them not just as negotiation counterparts, but as we're a team together, even before we sign the deal. Like I'm here to help you think through what would be the impact, what would be the result, the outcome, the ripple effect of what you're trying to achieve. Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Could you give us could you give us an example?

SPEAKER_00 9:53

Um, well, uh a few of the projects that I've done recently is helping universities explain with explaining what their open science uh uh program is about. In the Netherlands, we have uh universities that actually have a program like that, and there is some money also on the national level, so that is really, really cool. Uh, and then they ask me, Oh, yeah, you we need some branding, we want some visuals, and we want to ensure that our researchers are engaged. Uh, and then very often I tell them, Oh, you should go really back to the core of what your story is. You know, what is it that you actually want to explain? What is open science to you? And for me, that's always very value-based. Uh, but it differs a bit between the different universities. Certain universities are actually really about the value, some really combine it with um recognition and rewards uh within the university. So there are different flavors to choose from. So I go back to them very often. I propose to do a workshop first with a few stakeholders to really find out what the story is that they want to tell. And then I add quite a lot of text to it as well. Uh, and often they tell me in fans, yeah, we already, you know, we have a text, we already know what we want to say. And then it turns out that actually, you know, with the look, the the an outsider helping them, they start to realize that it's actually something different, that there is a layer underneath the things that they'd thought about before. And that's awesome. And um the cool thing about doing it together and also doing a workshop uh within the whole directory is that it becomes theirs, you know, there's ownership from their side as well. So maybe that that's very specific to the pro the project uh projects that I do, I don't know, but it yeah, for for me it was really an eye-opener, like hey, you know, I can actually propose to to change their briefing. That's really cool.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Right, completely change their briefing and help them see like a bigger possibility, a bigger impact. So for some people who are not acquainted with open science, right? Yeah, you know, some people might be wondering, is Melanie a scientist? Like, what is open science? And maybe we can you know give us a little bit more background, right? What is open science, and maybe you can tell us about how you know you um got involved in the open science community.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

I got involved because I was working at the National Library in the Netherlands, so um I don't really have a research background. I studied history, political science uh uh when I was at university, but that's it. But because for universities, open science is really important because it's an umbrella term, and one of the uh things underneath the umbrella is open access to uh scholarly communication, so to all kinds of research outputs. Um, and it it it used to be that libraries, uh university libraries had to pay a lot of money to publishers to be able to get their researchers to access that information, and that is now turnaround a bit, and we try one of the goals of open science is to try to open up this knowledge for everyone, no matter whether they are uh um working at a uh uh a rich university that can pay for these things, or even like citizens like me, for instance. I'm not affiliated with a university, but I do want to read uh read uh certain uh um uh articles. Uh and and and one of the things uh that I very often use as an example for what overall open science is is you know, access to data behind only the publications, is access to the publications for all, is really opening up knowledge. Is when you looked at the times back in COVID, all of a sudden all the uh publishers said, Oh, you know, everyone can can look at the articles for free, and people started to publish preprints that weren't uh peer-reviewed yet, and all of a sudden all the other academics could use it very, very quickly. And a lot of the developments uh were were all of a sudden accelerated because everything was opened up. So that is something we want to do on the broader scale, and yeah, it's really about equity as well. You know, everyone I I'm a historian by trading, so I feel that people from Africa should be able to read about their history and not just the people in Europe uh, you know, who have access to it uh because a university pays for it. That's for me, that's a no-brainer.

SPEAKER_01 14:55

So fascinating. I hadn't really thought about the impact of colonialism and how open science is a way as a almost a remedy to the colonialization of information and knowledge in our world. But um, so what I'm taking away from this is open science is like it's like a big mission. Yes, it's got a huge mission, right? And so again, going back to what we were talking about the at the top of this conversation, you and I work together um through something, you know, we don't have to go into details, but like in fact, you again you proposed a completely new briefing to this to this potential client, right? Because you're like uh there is a bigger game to be played, and that bigger game can be played even better, right? And so as a consultant now, of course, it is easier. People are more readily open to consultants' ideas because they're hiring you for your expertise, but maybe you can give us like a little bit more nuanced information, like what worked for you uh in terms of how to convey like what what do you think really worked for you in terms of communication strategy? Conveying, like, you know, this could be a better and bigger game that you play.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

That can be this can be a bit difficult. So sometimes it feels a bit like you're walking a tightrope. Um, and it also really depends on who the other uh party is. So very often people already know me from somewhere, and then it's easier because then they came because they saw something else that I did, there is more trust, but also sometimes it's people from different countries. Uh, I do quite a lot of international projects as well, or it's uh a company or institution that doesn't know me very well, and then it's more difficult, and then I always try to really pick up on all the signals that I get from people, and especially if it's international, very often it's it's via uh a Zoom call or whatever, so it's not in person, and then it's more difficult to pick up on on signals. So for me, the easy situation is when it's in the Netherlands and in person, because then I really sort of understand the vibe and I understand when I get some pushback, etc. So I was really trying to read the room as best as possible, but sometimes that's really really difficult. So that was one of the reasons why I really wanted to talk to you earlier uh when I asked for the coaching. Uh, because for instance, if you're you're dealing with an American um uh party, I'm not so aware of where the pushback is or whether they actually want me to do something different or whether they actually like my proposal because the way they respond is difficult. So I can't really read the signs as well. Um and for instance in Europe, it so depends. Even I mean, the Netherlands is a really, really small country, but go to Germany, which is across the border, and the situation is totally different. Belgium, completely other different story, UK, you know, again. So I always try to navigate this uh best way possible, and sometimes that can be hard, and sometimes you really have to explain a few times that something should be done differently, and then all of a sudden it feels like, oh, yeah, yeah, you know, and sometimes even it feels like it's their idea. So yeah, good for you. You came up with this, even though I I talked you into this three times already.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

That's that's when you know you're being like magical.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

Yes, yes, right. When they think it's their idea, yeah, yeah, yeah. But that means that you should not have too much pride, and yeah, you have to be a bit careful. And as you said, a dance, I I always say it's it's trying to have a real uh conversation, but actually, I liked your dance uh analogy better than mine because it is a bit of push back, a bit of way forward, you know, let them lead for a moment, blah blah blah. So yeah, really, really and take take your time. And if they don't have enough time to actually go through this, that is a bit of a red flag for me because that means that they won't have enough time during the the project itself as well, because the things that I do are are rather intense. So I also ask quite a lot of input from my clients. It's not just like, oh, we hire someone, here are the documents, do your thing. No, for me, the dance already starts before the actual ball.

SPEAKER_01 19:52

The dance starts way before the ball. I love that. That's so spot on because what you're saying is you're looking for green flags, red flags, also cue signals. You know, some of those are non-verbals, right? That's why you want to have those in-person meetings. You want to pick up both the verbal and non-verbal cues, visual cues, right? Because that all informs how you convey this message in a way that lands like, oh, it's almost it, it sounds so good to me. I almost want to make it my own idea, you know? Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Exactly. And and also you really have to have faith in your own judgment, and that is something that now, after seven, eight years, yeah, I sort of trust myself. But that was difficult, more difficult when I was younger, when I was just starting up. Uh so that is also something you you you you learn over over the years, because sometimes you you you ask them, like, I wouldn't it be a good idea if I actually help you with this and this and this, if I do more strategy, because I think that you first have to do, you know. Um, and sometimes there's no response, or you have a few questions and you just don't get a real response. And then you really have to trust yourself. Like, and I am not, it's not weird that I ask these questions. These are actually like the basic questions, but sometimes for all kinds of reasons, the other party just can't explain to you why they do certain things a certain way. I remember um two years ago I had this project, and I asked there was a program, and I asked for the document program documentation, and they slip simply did not have any program documentation. So they had this this thing, they had some activities, and they just said, Yeah, this is our program, but there was nothing underneath. So then at a certain point, you really start thinking, Am I the weird one here? Do I not understand? Is it a weird question? No, of course not. It's a basic question. Of course, you need to have documentation, but sometimes that is just not around. So that is also something that I really had to look. Learn that I had to trust myself on on these points. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Right. Learn and say, yeah, that definitely is a red flag. Without a doubt, right? Because I'm like, how can you do a project without project documentation? No programs. Wait, okay. And instead of, oh no, what if I'm wrong? You know, leaning in and asking even more questions. Or that could be the point on which you pivot your strategy and suggest an even bigger or something altogether different so that they can be set up for success. And I feel like you you're a delight to work with. And it, you know, I feel like my work was just to simply encourage you to trust even more. Yes. Your gut. Just trust. Yeah, that definitely is a red flag. That's a green flag, right? Yeah. Trust or judgment.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

Yeah, but that is also, I'm I'm 50 years old now, so very often people think that I that I, you know, do things uh easily, but that's not the case. And also when I started up my business, a lot of people now say, oh yeah, but for you it was easy. You know, very often young people ask me for advice when they want to to leave academia and and start their own business. And they often say, ah, for you it was easy. It was not easy. No, I struggle to set up my website and to come up with all the things that I was good at. Oh man, that was really, really difficult. Uh so don't really think that like the whole sort of road of other people, the career paths are logical because you don't see the forks in the road that these people encountered. So I did a lot of different things over the years. Um, so I sometimes struggle to make people understand that I yes, I do indeed have rather high-level uh uh strategy uh for international national projects, etc., or uh institutions, but I also do fun stickers that is difficult for people to understand, but yeah, really. So sometimes people think, oh, you're the sticker girl, right? So I'm like, I'm 50 years old, and people call me the sticker girl. Okay, well, um so that was that was difficult for me as well. So especially if you're younger, don't think that others that are now having fun in where they are weren't at a place where they didn't like their environment either, you know. So so yeah, that is also something that I always try to convey to others, and and still, I still have have have doubts sometimes, or or sometimes I say no to to certain assignments, and then I think, oh maybe I should have, you know, the that happens to all us all, but it's the way how you encounter this and how you keep on trying and laughing and and trying to find the right environment and the right people for you.

SPEAKER_01 24:59

Absolutely, and I could relate to everything that you said. I'm not yet 50, but uh you know, I'm hopefully ideally things go out, you know, things turn out well. I will be 50 and enjoying even more of the work I do. And people who are listening to this podcast, they could be anywhere, they could be in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, right? But you know, you noted in your bio that becoming your own boss in 2017 was liberating, and that you can choose the projects you think are most impactful, and you also get to dedicate 10% of your time to spend on unpaid but cool projects. And that just sounds like the dream for some people, you know. For some people who are like, I'm in this job, and oh my god, you know, office politics and the stress and my boss and feeling stuck and underrecognized, and like I'd love to be my own boss, I'd love to be working on cool projects, even if it doesn't pay me because I can't afford to.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Yeah, and that that is the and I I've been there. I mean, I I've I've been there in a job that I didn't really like, in a situation that I didn't really like, and it's if you are there, it's not a question of just all of a sudden. I mean, some people do it, they just decide to burn out their bridges and do something different. And I decided with a bit of help back then, uh, also from a coach, uh, to just take it one step at a time. Uh, you know, really try to always go five percent out of your comfort zone. Um, and I created little steps. So I first said, you know, internally within the institution that I that I was working um in, that I wanted to do something else, and they let me. That was really, really cool. And then from there I started to do other things, and so it took me a few years. I think in total, it took me about four years to really change the situation around. And then also my children, I have two daughters, uh, were were a bit older, so it was easier for me to to to say, hey, you know, I I will quit my job and I I will start my own company. But even then the people around me were like, Yeah, you should, you should. And I was like, Oh, should I? Should I? Which now in hindsight sounds so weird because I'm so happy now. Yeah. So yeah, it's it's it's it's it's difficult for us all, but sometimes you just have to do it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

Right. It's like everything that's worthwhile is on the other side of a risky conversation, and sometimes happy outcomes are on the other side of difficult or seemingly difficult journeys. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I I can also relate because uh when I decided to quit my tech job and become a full-time independent coach, it did also take me about four years to fully transition. And uh I am all I'm also pretty happy about that. So maybe you can tell us um you know, when you think about people who are thinking about going on that journey, maybe you know they're inside companies and they're they're thinking about becoming their own CEO, right? Like what what advice would you give to, you know, maybe if you even thought about like your younger self, yeah. What advice would you give to that person?

SPEAKER_00 28:20

Um I mean it so depends on your situation. I mean, I I was in a privileged situation where where I could change things, although a lot of people around me didn't. So yeah. Um what what I always say is you need only one job or one source of income. Uh, and for some people that can already be difficult to to to to get, of course, I know. But if you're if you notice yourself complaining a lot uh uh about your job or your uh work-life situation or whatever, really try to think you know what are the the little steps that I can take in order to change it slightly and go from there, because very often you don't know what is at the end of that transition at the beginning, but you can see like what are the steps that I can take within my span of control, and it might be a bit scary, etc. But let's just try the first step and then see, and then very often you see that people there are people willing to help you very often. Um, and also try to find the situation that fits you best, and that very often means that you should not listen too much to advice from other people, and that's difficult. So, for me, for instance, um work is all about creating value and it's not about making money so much. I mean, I have enough, I'm completely but you know, I could earn way more money in in another situation, but I I don't want to. I I want to go to to the open science retreat, and I I I I you know I want to work with younger people and help them, etc. That is my main driver. Um, so then you should not listen to all the people around you who maybe tell you that you need to earn a certain amount of money or you status, all these kinds of things. Yeah, we need a little punk. That's what I always say. I'm from I want that on a sticker. We need a little punk. You know, don't care so much about what others think is best for you. So when I started my second company, for instance, there were people that I really value, that I really respect, and they told me you should not do it because then people don't really see you as a consultant anymore, and they won't hire you for the more serious jobs, really, because you know, infographics and creating visual stories isn't serious for them. Okay, for me, it's it's really serious, but okay, okay, okay. So I didn't listen, I just went ahead and you know, let's just see. So that is yeah, and and that is sometimes difficult, but take it one step at a time. Don't listen to others if your gut tells you that is not something for you, because what other value in in their career might not be the thing that you value. This is really Dutch, I guess. I don't know, this is really European, maybe for people in America.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

No, no, it's not, you know, I'm I'm Korean, Korean American, and whenever I get on a call with a new client, I just tell them I'm gonna be direct and blunt. And 99% of the time, people are like, God, thank you. I need that, you know. And um, I think the title of this podcast is gonna be I need a little punk.

SPEAKER_00 31:49

Well, yeah, there you go. Another sticker, yeah. Yeah, no, um, but yeah, I'm I'm I'm I'm actually serious. Yeah, don't don't take yourself and your situation too seriously, even though you know it has to be possible, it depends on where where you are in life. Um, and and also um, yeah, if you if you as you always say, Jamie, if you really prepare and if you think about what your plan B could be, then you can be more straightforward in your negotiations. Um, so yeah, I mean we the Dutch are are very direct. Um I sometimes I really, especially for instance, with people from the UK, um, because we tend to hear different things than what they are saying, uh, because it's so different from how we work. I mean, you have these very, very interesting diagrams of how no negotiations are different in different uh countries. Um, and that is always something that I think about whenever I talk to people from from other cultures, um, like working cultures, uh uh uh also also within the Netherlands, it can be different depending on who you talk to. Um and now why did I want oh yeah, about about if you have a plan B, then you can be direct, and then you can propose, and then you can test whether they want to dance with you as well. So if you prepare, if you think of something else you could do, and plan B could also just be you know stay at where you are, it makes it easier to be daring and to really feel confident and be a confident partner, and that's for me is easier now that I'm that I'm older. When I was younger, it was rather difficult to be taken serious uh as a woman. Um, but yeah, you know, if if you feel like okay, I can just say no to this person on the other side of the table. Yeah, you feel so much more confident.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

Yes, yes. And so in negotiation studies, you know, in business schools, they call the plan B BATNA, best alternative to negotiated agreement. And you know, we also call it you're walking, you know, are you willing to walk away, right? And that gives you that leverage, and leverage leads to confidence. And I've been thinking about this topic because when you first approached me, you're like, I'm afraid I'm too Dutch. I'm like, what is this? Who says? You know, like Koreans can be also very direct. And I've been thinking about that because you know, as international people who have been exposed to different cultures as you and I have, and most of the people listening to this podcast have, because we're all now living in a global community, right? I I think you know that that that directness is something that you want to think through the filter of timing. I think different cultures have different timing for directness, right? In Korean culture, if you're like, you know, sort of you know each other, you know each other so well that you don't have to use this honorific in your language and you don't have to be so formal, like the directness starts coming right away. Right? People don't hold back. You know, they're like, Did you lose weight? You look like this, do that, da da da, right? Like there's they don't hold back, right? Um, and in some other cultures, you know, like take for example English, like the British English, right? There isn't this um very big distinction between formal and informal. It's usually the same language, you just have a different tone about it. So I think um I think that that can be why that timing of the directness can feel different. I don't know about I don't know, I don't know Dutch.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

Yeah, we are direct from the start, I guess. Although it's it still is a question of do we know each other? I mean, that's always a thing, right? That's always a thing. But maybe the reason why I'm so self-aware about this is because I've been in all these uh yeah European uh international research projects, and sometimes I felt a bit ashamed because some of my co-Dutch uh uh participants were like rude. And I could see because I knew how they what they wait, wait, wait, pause for a moment. Were they telling you that you were rude? No, I was I was feeling ashamed for um like for the bad yeah towards the other people, so you know, um I won't go into details, but they could be really, really rude. But I saw that they actually meant well because I know how to explain the jokes. It's very often when you when you know when people are joking, um, that it goes wrong. So I've been in so many situations where I thought, oh no, you can't say that to someone from Austria, or no, you can't say that from someone from Spain. You know, that's where this is coming from. So I try to not.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

It's so fascinating because the more specific you get on your cultural, like that experience within the culture, the more relatable it becomes. Like I know exactly what you're talking about when it comes to seeing other Korean people be so Korean to other people, and you're like wincing on the inside, you're like, oh, yes, that's defeating. Right. And so people who are Japanese, Chinese, you know, Finnish, um uh Scandinavian, uh South American, they probably have their own version of that. You're like, you know, you're being so whatever, and it's like this you know what it's like uh you know within your home country, and yes, totally understandable, totally understandable. But um, you know, we coached on the this thought, like, what if in fact my directness is an asset?

SPEAKER_00 38:10

Yeah, it's an act of service, it helps them do their jobs better. Yes, yes, yeah, and and it it really made me realize that it's it's it's all about respect. So I try to be respectful, and you can also be slightly meta about this. So one of the things that I think you you said to me in the very beginning is if if you immediately say something about the fact that you might be Dutch and that you might be direct, then the cult is out the air, you know, then it's then it's then it's all so, and that is true. I mean, it's it's all about respect, and then people can make mistakes, and I'm very I forgive people easily because I know how difficult it is. So, yeah, trust the other party to to forgive you as well, and otherwise it just won't work out, but uh yeah, it it can be difficult, it can be difficult.

SPEAKER_01 39:05

It can be difficult, but it's also doable.

SPEAKER_00 39:08

And what you're interesting and interesting, yes, right.

SPEAKER_01 39:13

Interesting and engaging and and um engaging, stimulating, you know, it's stimulating our brains. So the strategy that you just referred to is something I call calling out the pink elephant. Yeah, you know, just let's just call it out. I am different, I have an accent, right? I am from the Netherlands, I'm gonna be direct. Is that okay? And most of the time people are like, Yes, please, you know, we appreciate that. We don't want to waste our time, we want to get to the point, we want to make impact, we want to add value. Yeah, yes, yeah, and just to tie it back to what you're talking about, I think. Um, and tell me if this resonates with you, you can trust them. You when you show up from that place of respect and call out the elephant while trusting them that you know they also have the the level of sophistication intelligence to appreciate cultural difference, right? But really, what's underneath all of that is you trusting your judgment, your gut, yeah. And then that makes it for a more productive, a more engaging, more fun quote unquote dance of negotiation.

SPEAKER_00 40:22

Yes, and and and sometimes you have to realize that it it might take a little bit more time than you anticipated beforehand. So sometimes, you know, when I uh before I start uh assignments, usually you have like one or two uh uh meetings or or online calls, and in these situations very often it's like five. Uh but if I feel that that is helpful, then I'm willing to to spend a little bit more time beforehand because there are certain misunderstandings that you have to flesh out, and that takes a little bit more time. But if both parties are willing, that is very useful because it means that during the the the actual assignment you won't run into these problems as easily, yeah. So that is also something that I learned. Uh yeah, if if if if you feel that this is really it's the way they approach the things that you want to work on differently, then you just have to take some more time to explain to each other what the differences are and how you're going to solve it. And sometimes it just doesn't work out. I mean, that is has also happened with me. Yeah, well then it doesn't work out, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:37

Yeah, yeah. In fact, research shows that average negotiation takes about 25 days.

SPEAKER_00 41:43

Yeah, it also depends on on the assignments. If it's if it's a small assignment, that of course is is is yeah, it it it depends. It depends. Great.

SPEAKER_01 41:54

I mean, I I really got I I really got to talk negotiation with somebody who's done it, who's been in the benches, right? And I know people go to you for negotiation advice, like the younger professionals they ask you, and and so thank you so much for coming onto the podcast, sharing your wisdom. Where can people go to learn more about you, about I am studio, about uh the imming impact?

SPEAKER_00 42:21

Yeah, that's my consultancy, iming impact.eu. Uh imstudio.eu is is is the other one, but you can you can uh we I cross-reference to to to both of them. Uh and I do a lot with the open science communities, grassroots open science communities in the Netherlands. So if you if you google that, then you can also find all the cool events and things you organize.

SPEAKER_01 42:45

Is there anything I haven't yet asked that you wish I did?

SPEAKER_00 42:51

Oh, I think we browsed through a lot of things uh already. Let me see. Okay, I have one oh yeah, okay, that is a good idea. Now there's one thing that I want dare to ask. That is one of the things that I wanted to add. Because as you said just now, uh, a lot of people ask me for advice. Also, my international friends working in the Netherlands ask me for you know to negotiate like a duchy. Umtiate like duchy, like a duchy, yeah. Like someone from Dutchy, like someone from the Netherlands, yeah. Um, so ask people for advice because very often if you ask people for advice, um there's they're they're they're honored by the facts that you actually want their advice. So don't and the worst thing that can happen is that someone says, Oh, I don't have enough time at the moment, you know? Yeah, that was the only thing that I wanted to add, but yeah, I think this is sort of like around. I can talk for hours about these things, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:57

But but now I'm really fascinated. We're gonna wrap up. Maybe you can tell me just a like a little bit what negotiating like a duchy looks like.

SPEAKER_00 44:08

Um it's uh don't take no uh uh as an answer. So especially if you're female. Um if you ask for a raise, for instance, and they say no, that's not possible, just okay, that's the start of the negotiation. That is not like the final answer. Uh and another thing is um don't go for the oh we'll we'll just start within like this uh amount of range of um of salary. Salary range, I'm sorry. Uh and then later we will see if you can get on a higher pay scale. No, no, no, no, no, that's not a thing, because then after a year, you know, you really have to negotiate the moment you get in. Uh and that is very often something that is new for my international friends as well. Um, and very often it's said, like, oh, there are no possibilities to add on anything extra because we have a very transparent way of paying everyone, and that is very often also not the case. So, yes, you can negotiate. Um, yeah, so things things like that. Yeah. And it's mostly don't take no for granted, come up with your own ideas. Um, and very often they they they say yes.

SPEAKER_01 45:33

I love it, I love it. And I think going back to what we were talking about, I'd imagine there are similarities to almost, you know, proposing a completely new brief. If you get a new, if you get a no when you're negotiating salary, then you want to think about what is the job description, you know, where is the pay ban? Is this you know uh graded at a certain level within the pay band, right? Let's negotiate the entire context, not just the little terms, so that the terms change. Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 46:05

And there is always more room for maneuver than you think. Uh, because that is the thing in the Netherlands very often, it looks like yeah, everything is put on paper. Nah, if you if you know how you can you can renegotiate a lot of things as well.

SPEAKER_01 46:21

Excellent, excellent. So I hear negotiating like a duchy is just negotiating really well with confidence and persistence. That's what I'm hearing.

SPEAKER_00 46:30

That's just solid advice. I don't know, it's more like responding to the things that a lot of the Dutch employees do. So, yeah, I don't, yeah. I mean, I wish that a lot of the tricks, etc., weren't uh that you didn't have to use these kinds of tricks or that you didn't have to be as adamant. It would be so much better if they would just treat everyone the same way, you know. But that is simply not the case, and you have to be aware of the fact that under the layer of, yeah, we're so transparent and everyone is the same, no hierarchy. There actually is.

SPEAKER_01 47:11

There almost always is, and so you know we want to be curious and ask questions and look for the red flags and the green flags and trust yourself, yes, and lean in and okay, excellent. Thank you so much, Melanie, for your valuable time.

SPEAKER_00 47:25

Lovely to talk to you again.

SPEAKER_01 47:26

Yeah, yes, lovely to talk to you as well. And please come on to the show notes for links to Melanie's website as well as to my website if you want to learn more about my one on one coaching services. Thank you, Melanie. I'll talk to you. And uh okay, bye.