Risky Conversations with Jamie Lee

50% Raise, Self-Advocacy & Informational Interviews: Sarah-Neel Smith, PhD with Coach Jamie Lee

• Jamie Lee • Episode 124

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Informational interviews, job interviews, and offer negotiations: these are the "risky" conversations that stand between you and a career you actually love. But what if you could de-risk these moments and catapult yourself into a new dimension of success?

That is exactly what my client, Sarah-Neel Smith, PhD, did. In this episode, Sarah-Neel pulls back the curtain on her journey from feeling "stuck" in academia to pivoting into a high-impact career in philanthropy. 

By combining well-structured informational interviews with coaching to advocate for her potential, she transformed her professional life—negotiating a 7% increase on her first offer and a staggering 50% pay bump on her second.

We discuss how to build self-trust, create meaningful connections, and find the "creative sharpness" that only comes when you stop grinding and start advocating for your value.

Take the next step in your own career transition:

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SPEAKER_00

Welcome to Risky Conversations. And why risky conversations? Because everything that's worthwhile is on the other side of a risky conversation. And my name is Jamie Lee. I'm an executive coach for smart women who don't like office politics. And I help them get promoted, get better paid. And sometimes, often actually we have to say, my clients promote themselves to be the kind of boss that they want to be. And in fact, I have a free open training that's coming up on May 20th. And it's called the Exit Negotiation. How to get better paid so you can be your own boss. Or you can be the kind of boss that you want to be in the world. And today I have the amazing privilege of having my client Sarah Neil Smith PhD on the podcast. And she is a wonderful example of somebody who took the mindset, the techniques, and the tools that I provide in coaching, and she leveraged that to really step into being the boss, the sovereign of her own life. Sarah Neil Smith is a former professor who left academia. She became a private investigator, and now she works at a nonprofit think tank, the Milken Institute. She built her own nonlinear career through informational interviews. And now she teaches other people how to do the same. And through her workshop, Small Conversations Big Impact, she shows how simple, low pressure conversations can help you navigate career uncertainty and figure out what's next. And full disclosure, when Sarah Neal announces she's going to do Small Conversations Big Impact, her workshop on informational interviews, I'm like, please sign me up. So Sarah has paid me as her coach, and I've also paid her as my teacher because what she did through informational interviews is truly transformational. So welcome to Risky Conversation, Sarah.

SPEAKER_02

Thanks so much, Jamie. It's great to be here and yeah, thrilled to be learning from each other and keep keep on doing that.

SPEAKER_00

I know, it's such a beautiful thing. Another thing that you and I have in common is that we're both Smith College alums. And uh and I think we first met through the Smith College network.

SPEAKER_02

Is that right? That's a that's exactly it. Yep, Smith College, where everything begins.

SPEAKER_00

Right. And I recall when we first when we first had our coaching consultation, you were telling me what your life in academia was like and how you wanted to pivot out, right? Is it okay for me to share this? Like we we use this analogy. We use this analogy. It's like we're leaving the USSRs, it's the 1990s, and we're leaving, you know, an empire that's collapsing. That was that was the analogy that that felt really resonant at that time. And what you have done, right? I didn't really coach you through that. I really mainly coach you through the mindset and the self-advocacy, and then through informational interviews. You weave what you got from coaching, and then you you weave that into the informational interviews to completely pivot your career. So, with that said, I'm curious, how did you first get interested in informational interviews as a tool for career expansion?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, well, as you said, you know, I was in career crisis, right? I had been in some ways really sex successful in academia, but I couldn't get a job. And I tried a lot of different things, including working with you, talking to other people, ended up being the thing that really, really helped the most, which was a surprise for me as someone who identifies as an introvert. But talking to people, I think, really in this particularly structured way, not just a sort of free-ranging conversation, but something that's a little bit more structured, has a little bit more of a framework to it. And yes, as you're saying now, I teach it because I think it's one of those impactful, but also underutilized tools for people who are going through a transition. You know, we're so used to going it alone, right? There's all these social taboos, like you shouldn't talk about it if you're in a moment of professional uncertainty, or even some forms of coaching, I think, can end up with a sort of hyper-individual focus because it's all about honing your profile or working on yourself internally. But one of the things I learned during that time was that you get a really different tier of insights and outcomes from structured conversations with other people, right? It's like that, it's like that phrase two brains are better than one, right? There's a whole field of brain science out there called collaborative cognition that's about that idea. Putting yourself together to sort of collaborate and think through and work through a professional problem like this in that type of structured conversation, it's low stress, it brings you a lot of insight, and honestly, it's fun.

SPEAKER_00

So cool. Okay, so we're here at Lisky Conversations, and we we've already mentioned mentioned several types of conversations. So I I mentioned the exit negotiation, you know, self-advocacy, asking for what you want. And we're also talking about coaching conversations, many of which you and I have had. And now we're talking about informational interviews. And you mentioned something super cool, which is how informational interviews can be about collaborative cognition. Really, really fun. But you know, just for the people who aren't as familiar, how is informational interviews different from, let's say, a job interview, a negotiation? Like what is it?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I I think to think of a very basic definition, which is, you know, it's a 30 to 60 minute conversation with somebody else that's focusing on their career or life experience in an effort to help you with your own, right? So I think the the key there is sure, you're there because you're going through a moment of exploration or a set of questions, but actually most of that conversation should be about them because that's where all of the good things are starting to happen in terms of your own thinking. I think a lot of the time people think of informational interviews as a kind of awkward networking tool where you need to target somebody really senior in a field that you want to get into, but it really doesn't have to be that pointed. And in fact, I think it it should be a sort of broader concept. Should be talking to anyone and everyone about what they do because that's what makes them effective.

SPEAKER_00

I want to hear more from you. Like, would you tell us the story of how you talk to everyone and anyone? And that led to you leaving academia and securing a job as a private investigator.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely. So I think of this as I call it warming up your network. Um, and the first premise there is that everybody already has a network. You have people around you. You don't need to think about some gigantic, you know, professional network that you're trying to tap into. Warming up your network might be when you run into your neighbor and you're having some small talk on the corner saying, Hey, you know, I never really understood what you actually do. Do you have time for a 30-minute coffee sometime? I'd love to just hear your story. Hearing the story about their professional trajectory is automatically going to start doing a bunch of different things, right? You're gonna start reacting in a pro and con way, right? So it's gonna help you hone your values. What happens if you are talking with somebody casually like that is you automatically start to have some reactions, pros and cons. Suddenly, something that they're describing sounds like your ultimate worst nightmare. Like, God, I would never want to do a job like that. Or vice versa. Suddenly you realize, you know, that's a value or something that I'd like to prioritize a lot more than I had even realized before. For me, one example that that happened with that was someone I was interviewing mentioned how much they loved working with interesting people. And it clicked for me when they said that. I was like, oh, that's in my top three. I want to work with really interesting people. That is one of my absolute biggest goals as I make this next career transition. So just a small example, but one of the things that is automatically starting to happen in any informational interview or career-focused conversation is you're honing your values and your interests in response and in dialogue with them.

SPEAKER_00

And how many do you have? You know, between yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Over about a year during which I transitioned out of academia, I did a close to 40 informational interviews. I've heard anecdotally that the range, the ideal range is five to 50. So I wasn't over the line, but I definitely got really into it and really sort of started to hone my methods. I also had to put a stop to it, right? Because you can sort of do them endlessly, because of course everyone's got a super interesting story to tell. And that's actually one of the things that I teach in this workshop is making sure you're keeping an eye on where you're at in the process when you want to be using informational interviews for really different things. For some people, they want to be using it for exploring, just casting their net wide, saying, I don't know what I don't know. What else is even out there? Somebody else might be in a phase where they want to use informational interviews more strategically to start meeting people in an industry that they want to enter into, getting resumes passed along, getting opportunities. But keeping an eye on where you're at on the in the process is important because you've got to put a stop to it at some point.

SPEAKER_00

And when did you put a stop to it?

SPEAKER_02

I put a stop to it after I had spoken to multiple private investigators, enough to learn enough about that industry that I got a clear sense of what the different types of private investigator were. And I said, all right, I'm reaching my one-year mark. I'm gonna call it. This is the industry I'm gonna go for, and I'm gonna start using those interviews in that more targeted way.

SPEAKER_00

Excellent. And now I recall more specifically, you had already secured like a part-time position because you have had 40 informational interviews over a year. You secured the information, the insight, as well as being clear with yourself what you wanted. And then, like, you had a position. And I would recall when we first started working together, you're like, but I want to do more.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I caught the bug, right? And that's uh that's another, that's one of the wonderful things about it. Yes, I mean, I think a lot of sort of standard career transition instructions that I was encountering and working with said get a part-time job, work for free, do something part-time so that you can, you know, get your foot in the door, test out whether you want to make this big jump. And that was made possible to me. First of all, there's a little bit of luck in the mix. The place I worked was hiring at the time for a part-time position. But also that was made possible because by the time I did an informational interview with the people who would eventually hire me, I had spoken to multiple private investigators. And so when I spoke to them, I was modeling that I had done my research. I was modeling what it would be like to work with me. I was modeling, I'm respectful of your time. And also my questions were really specific and were really pointed at that juncture because not only had I honed my own sense of values through the informational interviews in the much more kind of exploratory phase, but I also had just learned about the industry a lot more. So you'll find that once you do even just a couple of interviews within a specific industry, you suddenly have enough kind of lingo or enough specialist knowledge that you can have a really informed conversation that really sets you up to indicate to people what it would be like to work with you if you were actually in the workplace together.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that was a really powerful thing to take away from your workshop. But it's not, yes, it is informational, but there's more happening even when you're not interviewing for a job or asking for any favors, like there's a lot more, you know, that's happening in that conversation. And that makes me think of how when we communicate with people, it's not just verbal, it's not just informational. People are absorbing, you know, million bits of information under the radar subconsciously in those conversations. And one of them can be, hey, is this a good person to work with? Would I enjoy working with this person? So that is such a cool success story. You know, you're the living example of the power of informational interviews. And so it can be really powerful. You're you're living the proof, and yet people avoid them.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, look, like I said, I completely understand that. I identify as an introvert. It is the last thing I ever thought I would end up being such a fan of. I think there's a lot of misunderstanding, right? I think, first of all, people assume that it's going to be awkward, that it's transactional, that you have to come armed with a long list of questions. I think the biggest one that I hear when I teach people about this is they feel uncomfortable asking for something and they think it's because they're giving nothing in return. And that actually is one of the top assumptions that I think is important to dispel because every time people do informational interviews with each other, when we do sort of practice sessions or in-workshop sessions, the people who are answering the questions always come out of it glowing, right? They're like, oh my gosh, I realized stuff about myself, about my own career, that I hadn't even realized until I said it out loud. So it's not just a simple case of people love talking about themselves, which, you know, is true. But also keep in mind this is doing work for your interviewee as well. It's helping them synthesize their experience, synthesize their narrative. It's livening up their day. It's giving them community connection and structure just that as it is for you. So yeah, I think I think these sort of assumptions or or misconceptions can really people tend to pull up short when actually it a lot of that is kind of completely backwards.

SPEAKER_00

Completely backwards. So, so good. So sometimes people think informational interviews are risky conversations, but if there are risks to be taken, it's actually very rewarding, right? You take the risk and it's rewarding. And it could be rewarding for both sides just because you showed up and you listened deeply. Yeah, amazing. So you shared, you know, already some details of what happens in a good one. But is there anything else about what happens in a good informational interview?

SPEAKER_02

Sure. Well, I spoke a little bit about you get more clarity on yourself, you're building a sense of sort of structure and community. I can't overemphasize how important that is, especially if you're going through a time of change or transition or you're just not sure what's happening next. It's really a kind of energizing morale boost. You're modeling what it's like to work with you. I mentioned that already. One of the key things I think, too, is you're really getting cutting-edge industry insights that are so of the moment, you can't get them somewhere else. And I really realized this when I was going through that transition out of academia. I have a strong research background. And at that moment, and in the previous couple of years, everyone, the kind of received wisdom was if you have a strong research background, go into UX research and tech. Go into user experience research, actually make some money using your research skills. I reached out to some people in UX. I started to quiz them about their experience, and they said, no, no, no, don't go into UX. The field is now oversaturated with people who've left academia and gone into UX. It was a kind of update that you couldn't actually necessarily find reading about things online. You couldn't necessarily, you know, get the right information, even using career advice that had been produced a year prior because things were moving so quickly. So that kind of anecdotal around the water cooler, but very, very of the moment read on industries is also really, really one of the key things that happens in informational interviews. And I think it's only becoming more important as things start to accelerate in all sorts of wild and different ways with the introduction of AI as well. So returning to that kind of moment of human connection, of those kind of cutting-edge insights coming from actual individuals can be a really key element of doing those interviews as well.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, totally. I think with everything going on, and AI is a useful tool, but then when we over-rely on it, we end up we end up just sort of blowing up the biases and sort of like a tunnel vision look at things. So uh human connection will continue to be even more important, come at a premium, and have the best payoff as you as your story, you know, exemplifies. So would you share us a little bit more about you know the strategies that you teach? Can you give us a taste of what are the structured strategies that you teach in the workshop?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, one of the things that I try and say is don't overthink that 30 minutes. You don't need to go in with a list of questions. In fact, don't go in with a really long list of questions that you think you're gonna walk through, because by the time you get to question five, it'll be irrelevant based on what they've said in questions one through four. Instead, I like to equip people with three kind of key ideas just to keep in mind. First one is be curious, or another way to put it is it's not about you, which is to say, of course it's about you and that you've set up an interview, you're having this professional conversation because you need insight. In fact, you might even be in kind of desperate straits, right? I was certainly not a very happy person and really was struggling at that moment in my career. But turning off that need to perform, that need to explain yourself, first of all, it puts you at ease. Second of all, it gives them more space to start telling you the things that are really valuable, right? So sort of stepping back a little bit and reminding yourself to listen and that it's not so much about you, it's actually about them, is kind of reminder number one. The core thing that I tell folks to do during that time period is you don't need a million questions, just trace a narrative arc. Past, present, future. Oldest narrative structure in the book, right? If you're translating that into questions to ask somebody, how did you get started in the field that you're in? Did you even start in that field, right? Tell me the backstory. Shifting to the present. What's your day-to-day like? Getting details about their present is a way to get a sense of whether you're actually interested. And then just shift to the future at the end. Where do you see your field going? What are the latest developments? Do you think that this might be a good match for me? Using that structure of a kind of past, present, future rather than talking about yourself, maybe driven by nerves or trying to check off a list of questions that you're taking notes at frantically. It'll loosen everybody up. It'll put them more at ease. And it'll get that kind of collaborative cognition and that sort of brainstorming dynamic actually going. And then the last one that I think is important. Almost the most important of them all is I say, ask for nothing. Because the less that you ask for, the more people want to help you. We all know what it feels like when you have that moment where you can tell someone sort of, oh, trying to be nice to you because they're about to ask you to do something for them or to give them or give them something. Just leave that alone. You're not there to ask for a job. You're not there to ask for specific opportunities. Ask for nothing. Brainstorm with them. Tell them what you're doing and ask them about themselves. And you'll know by the end of that 30 minutes, if you walk away and they've said, you know, maybe I'm not such a great match. Maybe my career isn't such a great match. But if you thought about talking to so-and-so, then you know you haven't asked for something and they've already been enlisted and are starting to support what you're trying to do.

SPEAKER_00

Amazing, amazing. And you know what you're teaching is actually very profound. First of all, like to really internalize, it's not about you. This for some people, including myself, we're like, oh, we need to rewire ourselves. We are we'll rewire our brain because it so often when we feel awkward or nervous or anxious about engaging in a one-on-one human-to-human conversation, you know, it's like, oh, what do they guys think about me? Or do I look weird? Or are they gonna think I'm weird? It's all about me, me, me. But like, no, it's not about you. Can we be present with another human being and honor their story? This is actually a profoundly transformative skill that sadly not everyone has these days because we've gotten so used to hiding behind our screens or just interfacing with each other through the screens. Yeah. And so this is a really, really powerful skill. And ask for nothing. It's almost like the inverse of a negotiation, but at the same time, I want to add that informational interviews can create leverage for asking for what you want, right? Because people who engage in informational interviews, they can find out what is the going market range, right? So you're not right, so you don't fall victim to the gender pay gap. You can find out what other people have made at your company, in your department, or in your industry, so that you know that you're at par. So asking for nothing directly, it's not transactional, it's informational. But that informational information you gain is dry powder, it's oomph, it's leverage in your future negotiation. So really, really wonderful strategies. How you know what I learned from you is that people can clarify their values, they can find out, you know, what are the jobs, what other interesting industries are out there? People can also gain the read on industries, cutting-edge information that's not written on the internet, it's not on the headlines, ergo, it's not even what the AIs know about yet, right? And so that's something that you can gain. And is there something else beyond that that people get out of these conversations beyond, you know, just a job offer or a connection?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think short term, I mentioned, you know, it's bringing you confidence and awareness that you mentioned sort of the intangible things that you haven't asked for, but that you have actually gained through that information. And keep in mind, once you have done a couple of these, you're much more comfortable talking about yourself. You're much more comfortable asking people about themselves. You're much more comfortable going into a room where you don't know anything about uh the situation and confidently and professionally using a sort of structured way to approach it to learn about it. And those are really powerful things to carry with you. I mean, I personally informational interviews led to my last two jobs, but also on a day-to-day basis, just today, I had to help somebody get from point A to point B in an office building in the most awkward situation ever, an elevator. And I totally leaned on my informational interviewing structure of past, present, future, past, present, future. So they they give you tools through which you can really navigate the world more generally. They're energizing. I think they give you momentum as well. So if you are in a moment where you're explicitly trying to transition or you're just not sure what's out there, they will sort of propel you into thinking about new options and new things. And then longer term, Jamie, I think they really do build a meaningful community. So I said a lot of people have this misunderstood understanding of informational interviews as something that's very sort of awkward, transactional, network-based. That's a model of asking for something or networking that is not really based in meaningful communication, right? But once you've based these conversations in meaningful communication, you drop that person align six months later, a year later, you all have already someplace to start from. And so over time, that becomes a community. It becomes a network in the best sense, not in that sort of empty professional network sense. So short term, yes, you're getting reassurance, you're getting confidence, you're getting this sort of energy, you're getting a set of skills that can carry you through a lot of different social conversations. Long term, I think you're building meaningful community.

SPEAKER_00

Amazing. So community, momentum during a transition, and confidence. So some people might be listening to this and think, why did she even need to hire a coach? Because again, as I recall, you had already done 40 informational interviews. You had successfully found a side hustle with a PI firm, right? And would you mind if we could we switch gears a little bit? And could you tell us why you sought out coaching then or when you did?

SPEAKER_02

I sought out coaching because I had used all these other tools, including workshops and podcasts and exercise books, you know, workbooks and informational interviews to figure out what I cared about and what I wanted to do next. And I'd gotten pretty close, but I didn't know how to navigate my way into those new professional situations. That meant I didn't know how to negotiate a salary, I didn't know how to write an email to someone that I had a new professional relationship with and wanted to really explicitly take it to the next level of working together. And I needed someone to walk me through how to do that.

SPEAKER_00

And what was that like for you not knowing how to negotiate salary, unsure how to communicate in this new context that you courageously and successfully found yourself in? What was that like for you?

SPEAKER_02

Well, it was a shock. I was used to being a highly functional professional in my day-to-day. I mean, I had been, I was an art history professor. I had been in the field of art history since I first declared my major in college. So close to 20 years at that point, it was the only thing I'd done. And to find myself entering a new professional realm or trying to enter a new professional realm and sort of looking in my toolkit and realizing I literally don't know how to do these first steps one through three that I need to do to switch industries. It didn't feel great. It was, and like any skill, it's a hard set of things to sort of integrate, understand, wrap your head around up front. Now, Jamie, I have to say, I'm proud to say I think I spread the good word and spread your salary negotiation and general professional skills around to everyone that I that I know and that I can support.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you. Thank you so much. And so what do you think was the the shift or maybe the biggest aha in your coaching journey with me?

SPEAKER_02

Well, like anything, it's the moment when it works. So I had I certainly had that when I undertook my first salary negotiation and actually got a 7% increase on the salary I'd initially been offered. It's the same reason I do the informational interviews, is because it really works. And so I think there's a whole spectrum of career transition or related skills that it's all well and good to read about in the abstract that one should do them or you can do them. But it's really when you actually pull it off the first time that you're able to sort of internalize that and take that with you and repeat.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And what I recall is that because you're such a fast learner and educator, like we talk, we would have a session about you advocating for what you're capable of. And then you would parlay that into other conversations and other aspects of your life, and you would come back and you'll report, like, oh, I did this, I negotiated this other offer. And like, wow.

SPEAKER_02

It's true. And yeah, it's exactly what you heard me say about the informational interviews. It's you know, take take a skill and try it out, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. And so, what was that like for you? Like seeing the self-advocacy muscle, like being able to flex it in other areas of your life. We don't have to go into the details, but you know, I'm just curious what that experience was like for you.

SPEAKER_02

Well, it's huge, it's like discovering a whole new dimension of yourself, the ability to clearly state what you need in a given situation, whether it's professional or personal or any other context, and to advocate for that, it's a real eye-opener when you realize all of the times you haven't been doing that. And it's also by contrast a real eye opener when you start doing it. So yeah, um I would say game changer all around.

SPEAKER_00

All right, game changer. And is there a particular moment where you're like well, eye opener or the game has changed?

SPEAKER_02

I think probably the second time you do it, it feels even better. So I'll give you an example. Yeah, I'll give you an example just related to the salary negotiations. I managed a 7% increase in the first negotiation. The second time I upped my salary by about 50%, 5-0. That's another aha moment where it's just very, very clear the ways that in your given professional trajectory, your own sense of value has been recognized or not recognized, and that advocating and clarifying for other folks exactly what it is and what it should be actually works. So I would say game changer the first time around, but true aha moment the second time around.

SPEAKER_00

And you know what I love about this is that you gave yourself an intentional break in between. Like it was a really brave thing to do because I have seen C-level, you know, executive level women burn them, get there, work hard to get there, and then burn out, and then tell themselves, I can't take a break. But what I saw you do, what you know, I I had the privilege of witnessing like not only did you advocate for yourself with your employer, you're like, no, I'm gonna stand my ground. I need a break in between. And you did. So that by the time you got to that second aha, the you know, the big aha moment, like you you were refreshed, you were energized, your creative thinking was on, and it was just beautiful.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely, but let's not forget how how much I resisted taking that break initially. And I say that as you said, for all those folks out there who are hesitating about taking a break. When we've been taught to take a break, it takes a lot of effort to take a break, to cross that threshold into just doing it. You're what you just described about all the wonderful things that result, totally true. Creative sharpness and creativity, and all of the things that you just can't drum up when you're burnt out and busy. But in a lot of ways, I think it's almost scarier if you're a doer or you've been on a track or you've been in an emergency situation or you're just a hard worker. It's almost scarier to take the break.

SPEAKER_00

That's right.

SPEAKER_02

But the trade-offs are worth it.

SPEAKER_00

The trade-offs are worth it. We're gonna make a poll code. The trade-offs are worth it. Okay. So many people need to hear this. I also just came back from a bit of a medical leave myself. So the trade-offs are worth it when you come back and you're really alive, right? You're not half dead, you're really alive. Yeah. Amazing, amazing. So, as I mentioned, I'm doing a free public workshop, a training on May 20th, about a month from the time of this podcast recording, and it's gonna be about exit negotiations and how to be your own boss. And I wonder, Sarah, you can answer any way you like, Sarah Neil. Has the confidence of you know learning to advocate for yourself from 7% increase to 50% increase, giving yourself the break in between those jumps, did that confidence impact launching small conversations big impact?

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely. Absolutely. I think the moment you have acquired or finally tapped into this newfound confidence, of course you want to share it with others, right? Yeah. And I think in a certain sense, I could also say small conversations, big impact came out of a frustration of seeing friends and colleagues and family members go through moments of transition or uncertainty without this tool at their fingertips. The fact that there is no real sort of go-to resource on informational interviews in a sort of supportive, productive, structured way was a total shocker to me. So it's been absolutely amazing to kick this off, to start to see people within a matter of weeks of us doing the workshop, go out there, have conversations, start seeing results immediately, and also just feel better in the process.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And what's beautiful about this workshop, Small Conversations, Big Impact, it's that it happens real time. And so you get to be in community with people who are learning these strategies and trying them, implementing them, and you get to practice role play so that you have more comfort and confidence when you engage in informational interviews. I think people who are feeling kind of stuck or lost, they want to pivot from one industry to another, but they're like, I don't even know where to begin. I think for them, I have referred people who tell me this that they're really stuck and they would need to pivot. I'm like, you gotta go take Sarah Neil's course because this is really, really it's simple, right? It sounds simple, but it's actually a profoundly transformative skill. And anyone who wants to learn more, who's curious, who genuinely wants to expand in their in their industry knowledge, right? I think informational interviews is just such a wonderful way to do networking with intention and presence and without that ick factor. And anyone can really benefit from this. Is there anyone else that I didn't mention who would really, really benefit, who really should take this course?

SPEAKER_02

Well, Jamie, you mentioned industry knowledge. You know, this is not just for career pivoters, it can be an incredible tool for your own professional development in a given company or a given industry. So that's another thing to keep in mind. If you are sort of getting antsy about the limits of your own day-to-day job, or if you there's someone you really admire on your team or elsewhere in your organization, um, using the informational interview premise and format can be a great way to build relationships that maybe will lead to change within your own professional trajectory there. So just to say it's also a really great tool to use internally, even if you're not seeking to shake things up. And then, of course, if you're entering the job market for the first time. So if you're a student, whether you're an undergrad, if you're a grad student who is expecting to enter academia in some way, but maybe you want to figure out some plan B before you hit that academic job market. Also, another really, really great sort of group of folks that we've had in past workshops. So that's the final thing I'll leave you with is the workshops. We've had, you know, undergrads and professors and artists and folks in tech. And part of what's so amazing about it is, as you said, Jamie, that becomes the people that you're practicing with. Those become the community that are supporting you. And you walk away, you know, 90 minutes each week, you get these sort of workshop time together, and you walk away with this incredible community of people behind you.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. And to what you said, I have seen my clients, my coaching clients, you know, we coach on the mindset, we coach on ambition, we coach on where they want to go, we coach on how do we overcome these obstacles. And I have had clients who were in senior leadership, and they did engage in intentional informational interviews that led to them leapfrogging, like having accelerated promotion schedules because they showed up, got curious, were present, and they didn't make it about them. They traced an arc and they asked for nothing, but they gained a lot in the process. So good. So, where can people go to learn more about your workshop? Small Conversations Big Impact.

SPEAKER_02

Very simple. Go to smallconversationsbigimpact.com. It has the updated workshop information. Next session, we're meeting Monday nights, 5 p.m. Pacific, 8 p.m. Eastern time for four for three Mondays in a row with a fourth optional bonus lab, which is kind of a time for everyone to come together and keep building momentum. You can find out more there or sign up there.

SPEAKER_00

Excellent. And small conversationsbakeimpact.com is where you go to register. And also, if you want to learn the simple steps and the mindset to improve your exit negotiation, come on over to the show notes. And in fact, I'll add all the links, both Small Conversations Big Impact and the free training happening on May 20th in the show notes. So, Sarah Neal, with everything that we have explored and discussed, what might be the smallest one step that someone could take if they're If they want to start engaging in informational interviews, what one would be that smallest one step?

SPEAKER_02

I'd say pick three people sometime over the next couple of weeks and just ask them how they got where they are. It can be the security guard at your job. It could be someone really senior at your work. It could be a neighbor. It could be someone you see at a local barbecue who's part of a community garden. Ask them how they got where they are. Or ask them if they know someone who has a really cool job or a job they love. That's where I get started.

SPEAKER_00

That's such a great question. Thank you so much for your valuable time. Thank you so much for leading this workshop. Is there anything else I haven't yet asked that you wish I did? I think we're good. All right, amazing. Well, thank you again, and I will talk to you soon.

SPEAKER_02

Thanks, Jamie.