Idiotalk Presents: My Chemical Bromance
Season 3 out now, a deep dive into My Chemical Romance.
Catch up on previous seasons covering Radiohead and Fiona Apple, available in feed.
Idiotalk is a deeply analytical, yet lighthearted and fun discussion hosted by brothers Walker and Zach Glenn about their shared favorite musical artists and more. Full of meticulous research, wild speculation, scorching hot takes, and a lifetime of inside jokes waiting to be shared with you.
Idiotalk Presents: My Chemical Bromance
Batman & Robin (1997)
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Walker and Zach complete mirroring the arc of Radiohead by focusing an episode on 1997's Batman & Robin film directed by Joel Schumacher.
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Idiotalk theme song by Walker Glenn
Hello. Welcome to Idiobat. A Bruce Wayne podcast with your host, Walker. The flying Grayson Glen.
SPEAKER_00And no, that means that does that mean I have to be Batman? So do you think that's the Batman? I think so. I think this time. Oh, you could be Batgirl in this one. Hi Walker. Well, that's not very PC, is it? Hi Walker. I'm Batman. Listeners, the PC line. That is a literal line from this movie. I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_02Tell the listeners who you are. I am Zach Glenn. This is a very special episode of Ideo Talk, the fourth in a series where your hosts take a break from our nonstop and exhaustive Radiohead coverage and delve into the Batman movies from our childhood. It started with us covering the 1989 Batman. Please go back and listen to that episode, a movie Zach watched every day for at least a year when we were children. The movie that we figured out both of us have probably seen more than any other movie in existence. And then, you know, once you dipped your toe into that, we both Batman Returns was huge for us too. Batman Forever was huge for us also. We had a guest on that episode, our guest Nicole Love, uh, was huge in her childhood as well. And now we finally get around to Batman and Robin, the 1997 follow-up Schumacher directed, that also connects to our childhood. As much we'll we'll find out as we get into. But in case you, in case you're a newer listener and you're very confused why you just listened to an episode about the Tom York 2019 solo album, Anima, and now you're listening to us discuss Batman and Robin. It's because there is a podcast within the podcast, folks, and it is Idiobat. And I don't think you can discuss the first three in this. This is its own franchise, right? I think this is the there's multiple Batman franchises, but this is this is the one that we cover on Ideobat.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that you're selling our listeners short, though, because how many of our listeners um are dedicated Radio Head fans? I would think the majority of them, right? I would hope so. Throughout the course of Radiohead's career, when Radio Head's fourth album came out, you know, many, many of their loyal fans and listeners had were shocked, right? Yes, after The King of Limbs came out, how surprised were people to hear about and listen to Adams for Peace, uh, their album, Amok. And then how many of us, Walker, were shocked when we heard about this band, The Smile, in 2021. So I think that our listeners, uh, as we are mirroring the arc of the band, I like to think that our listeners are too, and are like, of course, Batman and Robin is after anima.
SPEAKER_02Sure, exactly. Right. So this is so continuing this podcast, mirroring the arc of the band, if Radiohead was a podcast, obviously what they would do after discussing anima is discuss 1997's Batman and Robin.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they would mirror Ideo talk. And now we're stuck in an endless loop.
SPEAKER_02Right. And so this episode is our a light for attracting attention.
SPEAKER_00With the lighting in this movie, man, that is great.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, the lighting in this movie, I would call a light for making Walker vomit.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02So now I I I will say, while I love that us doing an episode about Batman and Robin is our debut of the smile in terms of, you know, this podcast mirroring the the arc of the band, it is going to put us in a difficult position when we do an episode about a light for attracting attention. Because famously our kid episode was our kid A. So our light for attracting attention, the timeline is getting is getting muddy, is all I'm saying.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I agree. Well, we'll think of something by the time that episode's ready.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly. And also, it's it's appropriate for the timeline to get confusing at this point because we are four movies into this franchise, but three different actors portraying Batman into the franchise. There you go. Perfect. Perfect. So at some point, us mirroring the arc of the band has separated off into its own timeline where we're no longer by mirroring the arc of Radiohead. We have to now mirror the the not even the franchise, but the intellectual property of that band. I can't wait till we get to our Jared Leto as Joker somehow mirroring the arc of Radiohead.
SPEAKER_00Well, that'll be in season two when we're covering 30 Seconds Tomorrow.
SPEAKER_02Oh, dang it, I didn't mean to tell the fans what was coming in season two, but uh season two of video talk will be where we embrace chaos for its own sake. Because one thing I'll say about your hosts is some men don't want money, some men just want to watch the wild band.
SPEAKER_00She had a vagina the size of a tangerine.
SPEAKER_03What the hell was that?
SPEAKER_00I don't know. There's some story in in uh The Dark Knight that he had a diamond the size of a tangerine, but I too.
SPEAKER_01I don't know why did you say that?
SPEAKER_02Well, she better get it looked at then. Now, Zach, a radio head thing came just careening into my line of vision last night. And, you know, look, well covered on this podcast that I love the head. You know what I'm talking about? I'm never I'm never upset when radio head pops in unexpectedly. You love the boys from Oxbridge. I I I absolutely love all of the boys and the men. Some of the members of Radiohead are men, some are boys. I will not say who is who. But just some have a more boyish spirit, a more boyish lightness, I will say. Phil Selway. Phil Selway. The bald boy. Normally on this podcast, we don't tie things too closely to kind of contemporary pop culture or events. But in this case, this episode's coming out not terribly long after release, and the show that Radiohead popped in on is actually one that is in a current season at the time of this release. So last night I was watching Yellow Jackets. Now, I will just say, first of all, that I love this show. I I think it's kind of trashy, but in like the most enjoyable way. Oh, yeah. Zach and I both, I think we share.
SPEAKER_00Are you watching the new season? No, but I I felt the way that you just described about season one. I'm like, this is absolutely the air giant air quotes, worst thing that I've watched in a while, and I absolutely am fully invested and really enjoying it.
SPEAKER_02Yes, me too. And it's also, I know that both of us as kind of a point of pride, do not fuck with anything that Showtime puts out. No because, hey, why am I gonna drink Pepsi when Coca-Cola exists? We have HBO. Come on, Walker. Why am I gonna listen to Muse when I could listen to Radiohead as well? Thank you. Exactly. Thank you. Thank you very much. Why am I going to vote for Joe Biden when I could vote for Donald Trump? We should cut that in case anybody doesn't think I'm kidding. Oh good. In any case, love yellow jackets, and I'm getting caught up on this new season. It's only a few episodes in. But last night, my son and I went and saw the final home game of the Golden State Warriors. We won just a terrific night. But I got home, I'm all keyed up, and it's like 12:30 p.m. And I'm like, you know what? I'm throwing on a little YJ right now. I'm gonna see how my girls are doing out there in that wilderness. Now, I don't want to give any spoilers to you or to the listeners, but at the end of this episode, something something very disturbing takes place that has been getting teased since the pilot, I would say. And so this very disturbing event takes place in a very cool television stylized way. And what do I hear coming in? Right? Coming in to the soundtrack. Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_00Well, give me the album.
SPEAKER_02I want to hear just your guess. Karma police? You're on the right album. Not a single. Climbing up the walls. Yes, you got it in too. Yeah. So as as this uh disturbing, bloody event is taking place on this show about uh these survivors of a plane crash out in the wilderness, this this girls' soccer team. We're watching something happen that we kind of know happened that has traumatized everybody in their adult timeline beyond belief.
SPEAKER_00And then so is it the crazy synth jam that's kind of do over like a maybe a montage, is what I imagine.
SPEAKER_02It was an edit. They start with the beginning of the of climbing up the walls, and then when shit kicks into high gear, it's doing the solo.
SPEAKER_00Go back and listen to our uh okay computer episode, uh, Take It Easy Computer. I distinctly recall when we're listening to that song, because I am a huge fan of that song, not to say Walker isn't, but I I think it's really it's it's one of the more 90s songs on the album, but like is totally uh just in the best way. But I keep saying that like I feel like this would go great in a Danny Boyle film, or he would use it, similar to like in 28 Days Later when uh Cillian Murphy's character is walking around the city. And I just love that somebody used it, uh, not at not at that level or anything like that. Um, but yeah, I just feel like it's been underutilized in TV and film. Totally.
SPEAKER_02And this brought up a couple things for me. I mean, so yeah, so that this this what is going to be, I think, a huge episode in the overall series run ends with really epic use of climbing up the walls. This made me think about a couple things. So this show has two timelines. One takes place in present day, one takes place in 1997.
SPEAKER_00Present tense.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I like that. Now, one reason I think this show works, I was realizing last night, is because in the 90s timeline, they don't over-emphasize the 90s nostalgia.
SPEAKER_00Wow, they did in season one, though. Maybe so.
SPEAKER_02But yes, good agreement. I've seen worse. I think that as well, I think that one advantage it has is that after the pilot episode, these people are all surviving in the woods, and so it's not a for sure, it's not nostalgia porn of just constantly bombarding you with 90s references. Why are you depressed? Oh, Kurt Cobain just died. Right, exactly. Like, and and I think that like people do talk about the things that they are experiencing in the time they live in, and there is always a vernacular for every like time and place and things like that. But it just is like the shows that kind of stand the test of time better are less egregious. I think even other shows that I think are great start out doing that much more heavy hand heavy-handedly and then get away from it. Mad Men is an example. Yeah, in the in the first season, it's much more punching you in the face with like, look how ignorant in 60s everybody is being all the time. And then it's slow, you slowly adapt to the setting, and it's having to emphasize that less. I think I don't think Yellow Jackets is as good of a show as Mad Men, but I think similarly, as we get later into season one and into season two, they are not doing that as much, especially because the characters in the 90s timeline are removed from society because they're all surviving in the woods. Yeah. This leads me to say the 90s timeline takes place in 1997. Okay, Computer was released in 1997. Do these poor girls in yellow jackets know about OK Computer? And I think we would need to look up the timeline of when they land in the woods in 1997.
SPEAKER_00Well, I know okay computer was released on May 21st, 1997, in the United States at least. Okay. So hold on, let me look up and it's what, a soccer tournament, I believe. So I think, Walker, that they missed it because a soccer tournament to me it feels like springtime. Springtime. You know Juliet Lewis's character is going to be coming back to to real life and and throw popping on some okay computer, if not even Kid A, though. So I'm not too worried about them.
SPEAKER_02I'm just looking up when did the Yellow Jacket's plane crash?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it says in 1996, a New Jersey high school soccer team travels to Seattle for a national tournament. Okay, so so okay computer had come out.
SPEAKER_02No, no, okay computer is 1997. Right, so wit oh right, so it becomes 1997. So they so this show and this scene that takes place in 97 is being scored with I mean, is this the unexplored? I mean, this show deals with the trauma of the death of friends, uh siblings, cannibalism, survival. But left on the table is the trauma of being in high school in 1997 and having no idea that okay computer has come out and redefined popular rock and roll.
SPEAKER_00Well, no wonder they're resorting to such barbaric tendencies out in the woods. They hadn't had the the cultural awakening that that okay computer provides for all who are exposed to it immediately. I don't know about you, but I became a thousand times more cultured after hearing okay computer.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Yeah, no, as as I think we just discussed on our okay computer episode, I heard it was like, this is the most mind-blowing thing I've ever heard. I'm gonna go listen to Lincoln Park for the next five years. So, what do you think about all that? Do you think that do you think that that's being discussed in the writer's room as they write this needle drop? Like that, hey, part of the reason these characters are acting this way is because they haven't had the mind-expanding experience of listening to okay computer on CD.
SPEAKER_00I I certainly do. And I also think, you know, that that I think that was absolutely a conversation and kind of a way that they would structure the moment. Probably first thing. They're like, okay, we don't know what's gonna happen. How do we get Radiohead in here? That's probably where they start every season or episode, and and this time, you know, it still has to get past a certain barrier. So I think the writers have always started there, but at this time it made it all the way up to the suits and they allowed it.
SPEAKER_02But but I'm and these girls have listened to the Benz. Yeah so it's not like they just think Radio Head is the creep band.
SPEAKER_00No, no, not at all. But uh I think that um more kind of broadly speaking, what I think is really neat is that, you know, I don't know, this would be a better question for uh Kailani, um, my wife, uh, because she, you know, is is pretty into fashion, but much more so than than than I am. And so she's really good at like aligning like, oh, the trends are, you know, and not that she follows all these, but like right now, 1998 is really in or whatever. Like she can get it down pretty well. I'm not saying she's always right, but she tends to be pretty on the money. And what I think, Walker, is that we are uh, you know, Stranger Things typified and really put a magnifying glass on how into 80s culture the the culture was in 2016. Well, it keeps moving, but it doesn't move year to year. And you know, friends uh the show, listeners. Friends has a huge Gen Z audience. We were on a break. Yeah, but I think that Gen Z is about to take a break from Friends because a lot of folks are noticing that uh that Friends is you know a little bit culturally dated in some way, as things are that friends could be called white friends. That and that, you know, Joey's uh Joey's Gallibances could be called date rape.
SPEAKER_02Um actually I love Joey. Such a funny character, but like some of the things that they they pass off as Torpedo. Joey does are sociopathic.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they're very, very unethical at that point.
SPEAKER_02He's like uh he's like if uh if if um um Bill Cosby was like your buddy. I was gonna say bad listeners. Uh I'm I'm only thinking of the actor's name and for uh the uh Dennis. He's like if Dennis on It's Always Sunny was played as charming instead of like a a salty psychopath.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and listeners, I understand there's context. I'm definitely grossly exaggerating, uh, but but yeah, I think that Friends is is an enjoyable watch, but like people turn on things a lot nowadays, and and I'm not immune to that either. So all I mean to say is that of course Radiohead redefined the late 90s with okay computer. It's an album that Walker and I both adore, but I uh it's my opinion that that they really came to define the early 2000s more so than they defined the end of the 90s. And this is with hindsight. In fact, even if you look at I was having this conversation with a non-Radiohead fan in kind of a jokey way. Uh why were you talking to them? Oh, she's a good friend of mine. No, I'm just but we've had different interests. No, no. Um, but she was uh stoked at a trivia question she'd gotten right at a trivia game she went to, and she's like, it was who was Rolling Stone's greatest artist of the 2000? And she's like, and the answer was Usher, and I'm like, I'm sorry, that answer is patently wrong. I know for a fact, without looking at my phone or anything, that Radiohead had been uh rated by Rolling Stone as the greatest band of 2000, and then we popped it in and it was just like she bet Billboard. But I just think that Radiohead are about to make another strong comeback in the zeitgeist with maybe a new generation. You know, we've talked a lot about Stanley Kubrick, and and I would love to say that I've loved Kubrick since I was, you know, five years old, but that's not the case. Uh, he really became an artist that I love and appreciate at the level of Radiohead about five to six years ago. And I just think that artists like Kubrick, and not necessarily Radiohead, I understand they're one of the most currently successful modern bands, but I do think that they're about to have a refresh on their relevance with a new generation. And I'm really excited that we timed our podcast uh intentionally in line with that. So, you know, they'll be like, hey, I love Radiohead. Where can I hear the best and only commentary on this band? Walker and Zach, Ideo Talk, Radiohead.
SPEAKER_02Oh, right. So we're about to, we're about to be, we're about to get the runoff of this.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we're about to get more listeners than just you and I.
SPEAKER_02Now, to be fair, our significant others also, well, actually, mine doesn't listen to the show. So that's okay. That's okay. We got at least three of us. Um, I love what you're predicting here because this was my thought too, as I saw this last night, because I know this show, Yellow Jackets, is really big with the youngs. And yeah, and I'm like, oh my gosh, a bunch of young I a bunch of young people are watching this right now, going really broad audience, honestly. Yeah, true. I mean, what's brilliant about this show is that the the I think very consciously the two timelines yes, the two timelines totally trap a huge age quadrant because even though your Ever After fans, you get your Natural Bone Killers fans, you get your Black Snake Moan fans, and then you get your fans for all these whoever these young fuckers are.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02Like, I mean, I I know that if you were like probably 25 or under, you would identify yourself with the young actresses playing these high school seniors. But I even though the grown-up version of these characters is a decade older than me, it's like obviously I feel much more in line with what they're going through, as as and and but all that to say, a bunch of young people watched this episode a couple weeks ago and heard Radiohead for the first time. And are they listening to us right now? And to them, I say Generation Z and Generation Alpha, which is Ollie's generation. If any really, yeah, if any 12-year-olds have bad parents who are letting them watch yellow jackets, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_00I'm just laughing at the idea of a 12-year-old with a bad parent. We know that that's not the case in America.
SPEAKER_02No, of course not. Everybody has good parents. Everybody's parents are doing their best, and that's good enough. And hey, if something, if it if it sucked for me, why should it be any better for you?
SPEAKER_00Is a great parenting ethic that I now were you 12 years old or were you almost 12 years old on June 28th, 1997, when uh Batman and Robin came out? I guess you would have been almost 11.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, okay. I was almost 11. And that let's get into this movie. So Batman and Robin. This is the this is the last one of the Batmans from our childhood. Every the the Batmans from here on out will be gosh. Well, I mean, I was a full-on young grown-up when Batman Begins came out, right? Yeah, I was six, I was 16 years old, so you would have been 19. Yeah, okay. So this is that's crazy. That's crazy that there wasn't a Batman during my adolescence. That that franchise well, let's talk about it. Let's get into it. So Batman and Robin, uh, the lat the end of an era for sure, both in terms of this podcast and the Batman franchise itself. Get into it, Zach. What is the what is the overview, background, and kind of production information about 1997's Batman and Robin?
SPEAKER_00Oh man, I would love to, Walker. I'm sorry, I need to get my front page of notes out that are handwritten just a second.
SPEAKER_02And isn't this movie so 1997 that it honestly should the way you have like Baz Lerman's Elvis or something, it should be an above the title. Like 1997 presents Batman and Robin.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I mean I I I think it's uh oh, just to backtrack listeners, I said June 27th, or uh it was released on June 20th, 1997. And as we just covered in exhaustive detail, okay computer was released uh May 21st, 1997. That's it here in the States. Uh may have had a slightly earlier United Kingdom release date, but you know, same month.
SPEAKER_02So, like, so people are still just still barely even processing how much their mind has been blown by okay computer when all of a sudden the Clune Dog comes swinging into theaters like what what cultural whiplash we must have been having at this time.
SPEAKER_00Well, absolutely. And we were talking about how writers are always prioritizing Radiohead and into their, you know, their script or their moment or whatever.
SPEAKER_02And I think that Yeah, you feel them looming over this over this production for sure.
SPEAKER_00Well, yes, and but because it was made by people um that maybe lack in in what we would call traditionally defined as like intelligence, I would say. I uh I think that they interpreted the title of the wonderful album, Okay Computer, as okay computer, like let's embrace it because there are a lot of digital effects. Like, okay, computer, let's go. Let's see what you can do. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Let's do like an MS paint quality teardrop freezing on Arnold Schwarzenegger's face and then and then breaking into ice dust.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I mean, just like the way that the the uh you know the technical department of this movie, uh you can occasionally just stumble into brilliance by just using the like basic applications on your desktop or even on an iPad, uh, you know, you you are gonna hit some some cool looking things, whether they are of substance or not. But just sort of like brass tacks about this film, it was directed by Joel Schumacher. I think Walker mentioned that earlier, but uh Joel Schumacher obviously directed, uh, or not obviously, but he had directed Batman Forever, whereas the first two films in this franchise were directed by Tim Burton. Um so they're sticking with the director. Uh it was written by Akiva Goldsman. Um Akiva Goldsman uh did win an Oscar later on. Um so just we'll hang on to that and we'll talk about that.
SPEAKER_02And he was one of the three riders of Forever, him with that husband and wife team. But he got but he's left that polycule and now is striking out single.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, what was it, The Bachelor's, I believe? Oh, yeah, I think so. Yeah. You know, the characters um based on uh the characters created by DC Comics and Bob Kane and Bill Finger. Uh, this was at the time when Bill Finger was still not getting credit um as as contributing to the IP. Um, but we definitely want to make sure we do that on the show. It was produced by Peter McGregor Scott. So this is where I think I mentioned Batman Forever episode. Yeah, that like uh, because he was the producer on that on that um film as well. But this is where they got McGregor's uh syndro, which is a critical plot point listeners. We'll cover that. What a weird so he's like, hey, look, I'll I'll I'll bankroll this thing. But you're gonna name a a rare yeah, or maybe that was the writer's not so cleverly taking a pot shot. I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_02But uh Yeah, I would say in that case, this whole movie is suffering from McGregor syndrome.
SPEAKER_00I know that shit. Uh something that is uh indefinable. Um, but yeah, not clear what it is at all. The cinematography was by um Steven Goldblatt. Uh it was edited by, and I want to really highlight these two folks um because edited by, I would put in giant air quotes. Um, it was edited by uh Dennis Verkler and Mark Stevens. The music is by Elliot Goldenthal. Um, and really I I don't even know why there needs to be a credit. It's probably some like SAG thing or something like that, because this is just the exact same music. There's nothing new from the in this movie that wasn't used in Batman Forever.
SPEAKER_02There is something new in this, which is that stupid fucking like hackier than hack poison ivy theme. Oh, yeah. That plays like the like jet. Yeah, it's like every time Uma Thurman is in frame, it plays like the Jessica Rabbit music and like has about as much subtlety.
SPEAKER_00I'm glad that you mentioned uh even just if from a character Roger Rabbit, because I'm gonna bring up Roger Rabbit in a little bit. Um He's never far from our thoughts. No, and never far from this movie either. So uh the running time, it's a whopping two hours and five minutes. Uh that is the same length as uh Batman Returns. Um I mean, they're all about the same length except for the first one, but I I just find it it interesting.
SPEAKER_02Um two hours and five minutes, and you feel all six hours of it.
SPEAKER_00That's what I was gonna say. Uh the budget of this film, um, this is uh before marketing costs was 125 to 160 million. Um the reason there's a $35 million kind of estimation there is because it did go over budget. Um, and then the marketing budget or marketing costs rather for this film were extensive. Folks, this is uh this is information that I've just learned kind of through listening to podcasts about film from people who who understand it a lot more than I do. But man, recouping your costs on a film of this scale or or any film, you know, a modern day, uh, I think Batman uh versus Superman had a marketing expense of $250 million. And that's that's usually on top of production costs. So it was very difficult for this movie to make a recoup. Um, its box office worldwide was $238 million, and so it it it didn't even break even when you incorporate the marketing costs.
SPEAKER_02And I'm adjusting that for inflation. That's about $187 uh five million five hundred thousand today. Man, yeah, that's still kind of that's kind of quaint for a superhero movie budget by today's standards, right?
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah, I mean that you can uh they're usually about 200 to 250 mil. I bet the new Thor movie was probably about 225 million. But okay, yeah, even up to uh 2007's Spider-Man 3, I think that movie was the most expensive movie ever made at the time, and that had a marketing or that had a production budget of of 200 million dollars. So it's only recently that they've you know started exceeding such uh surpassing 200 to 250. But the back of the movie.
SPEAKER_02Well, I was almost able to then slightly excuse this movie based on like is that maybe not that big of a superhero? So, okay, so it's just they just don't know how to spend it.
SPEAKER_00All three Lord of the Rings movies, the Peter Jackson's films, were made for a combined uh of 275 million. So each one of those first three movies was made for about 90 million dollars, and they're some of the best looking films I've ever seen, regardless how you feel about them. They look in cheap. Jesus Christ. Wow. So uh just a little bit about Schumacher. And I want you to interject anytime in this, Walker. Um, not gonna be as lengthy as as before, folks. I do want to just quickly uh shout out myself and say that I was looking for um other sources besides IMDB and Wikipedia. And uh I used to be a subscriber to the comic and movie magazine Wizard, and I was looking through my collection and I did have uh an older Wizard zine that came out, I don't know, uh probably in like January, February of 1997, talking about this movie with some production photos and stuff like that. And they make it look pretty cool. Um, the production stills were not as were not as much of an indication as how bad this would look. But honestly, uh the same information that is contained there uh is pretty much widely available online. But yeah, it was just interesting for me to see how Wizard can make something look cool, um, even in hindsight of having seen the movie. But Batman Forever reset the franchise in terms of its financial success and viability. Not to say that Batman Returns was a total underperformer, but it really was relative to the first one. And obviously, we talked about the tone that was needed for a change or perceived to be needed. But yeah, Warner Brothers Studios fast-tracked pre-production on this film after the success of Batman Forever, and it was clear at the outset and understood between Joel Schumacher and Val Kilmer that he would not return as Batman. Um, I mean, the the quotes from Schumacher are kind of vague and and not really worth repeating, but it sounded to me like somebody asked him and he was just like thinking and really stoned because he said he kind of just quit and he just walked away. And it's like, okay, but well.
SPEAKER_02That was a very contentious relationship.
SPEAKER_00It was, and but and Val Kilmer wasn't available for scheduling, whether or not he would have come back, but he was going to do The Island of Dr. Moreau and The Saint. Have you seen either of those movies?
SPEAKER_02I've never even heard of The Saint. I know The Island of Dr. Moreau is a notoriously hellish production because of uh in in at least in part because of Brando's kind of like unhinged mental illness at that point.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it is unwatchable. It is so bad. Um, I've I've I've suffered through it once, never again. So uh George Clooney was obviously cast, and we'll go through the cast person by person here in a second. But Oscar winner Akiva Goldsman, as we talked about, expressed um concerns about the notes he was given from the studio as he was writing and submitting his script, right? And Joel Schumacher's general response to these concerns from the studio was that the movie needed to be as toy friendly as possible. And this is a really interesting detail to me because it provides context for what some of my overall take on the movie is, which we'll cover later. But you know, toy manufacturers, high execs were present at the the table when they were uh designing the costumes when they were playing in the production. So it's just a total uh one might say cash grab uh at the outset, you know, without really focus on the movie itself, but more on the merchandising, which is just you know, it's just depressing, but whatever.
SPEAKER_02I can I just interject there. I don't even really see that in this movie. I don't even really see maybe this is just adult brain and it, but I don't even really see the the the toy aspect of it. Well, I can see it more in forever, uh honestly, because of all the like the costumery of Too Faced and and uh um the Riddler. Like, I don't know. I don't really see the there are there isn't even any really like big like Batmobile scenes or like well the merchandising was more of a flop though, that's than it was forever.
SPEAKER_00So I think I think you're making a great point because like you watch Star Wars and I you know Walker, oh I'll speak for myself. I was a little too old, um, you know, being born in 1989 to get like what are considered collectible Star Wars toys now. Sure. But you know, we certainly had them, but I still to this day don't watch Star Wars and be like, oh, I want a toy Millennium Falcon. When I see those things, they make complete and total sense. And this Star Wars is the most successful example of this of all time. When I see um Batman the Animated Series, when I see even Batman Forever, which I will just say right now, I think is a better movie than this. I don't see that it's meant to be so merchandised. When I see this movie, I see that the Batman suit, Poison Ivy, Bane, they all look like toys on screen, which did not translate to a more successful merchandising opportunity. So it just goes to show you you should not make a movie with that in mind. Um, and and we could even compare like the Star Wars prequels to the originals in that way, right? Those look like a lot more merchandised and were actually less successful. And people still buy toys nowadays, it's not a matter of people only want PlayStations.
SPEAKER_02That's okay, now I get it more. So it's like everything is toy-like, which is to me, I'm glad philosophy has that is like very condescending to your audience of young kids. Because I think they totally agree. Yeah, that that's it, it's it's treating your audience like it's stupid, and I'm glad they I'm glad they were uh appropriately reprimanded by the hidden hand the market.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I agree. Um, and and just before we dive into the cast, I just want to say kind of in the background, Arnold Schwarzenegger's casting created um a high amount of buzz in anticipation. And I just have a quick story on this. I can remember uh coming back from our grandparents driving back and the radio was on. It was talk radio. I don't know what we were listening to. Um, but my I wasn't listening to it, but it was on, and my mom turns down the volume and uh she goes, Zach, did you hear that? And I said, What? And um she played a little guessing game with me and she said, There's a new Batman movie coming out, and guess who's going to play Mr. Freeze? And so I guessed, and I I think on the third guess or so I guessed Arnold Schwarzenegger. And I just remember that's just such a distinct memory because I was so excited because I love Batman even at age seven. I guess I was. And I think there was just general buzz and anticipation, that fact that Arnold was in a um was in a uh a Batman film as one of the villains, you know, they didn't know how bad it was gonna be. And kids, Arnold is still an icon, uh, kids, you know, whoever may be listening, but I I do think that Arnold is fading from the public consciousness, you know, as as as uh focal points, you know, of the culture tend to do. But I mean, this would be analogous to Dwayne The Rock Johnson. You know, I think he is is a much more I don't know about sophisticated. He certainly has a lot more of a range of as an actor than Arnold does. I'm not saying Arnold's not a smart guy, uh, but that to me it's like that's the only possible example of who lines up in modern day. Yeah. Would you like to add anything before I go through person by person?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, okay. Well, it's a I don't have anything to add about your analysis of Arnold, but your story of how you found it out remind me of a very uh like dead technology way that I found out about a Batman thing too. I don't know if I've ever told you this. So you found out about this casting on terrestrial radio. I found out about the at the time forthcoming Batman the Animated series, a show that we both grew up on that I know has aged really, really well. Um I found out that that was coming out through a newspaper article in the Sacramento B. And it was the same thing. Mom pulled it out of the paper and was like, they're making a new Batman cartoon and gave me the like newspaper article to read. Can you imagine a time where somebody put to a printing press? Hey, a new Batman cartoon's coming out.
SPEAKER_00I know, I love that. And I love that our mom was supportive of our interested Batman. Uh it's just it's a sweet little memory. So, yeah, just kind of quickly going through the cast. Um, this is this is a loaded one, which is is also very interesting. Um, but Arnold Schwartz, and I'm gonna go through an order of billing. Um, so Arnold Schwarzenegger, he was paid $25 million in this role um to play the characters of Dr. Victor Freeze and Mr. Freeze. Now I will note Victor Freeze is spelled F as in Frank, R as in Robert, I as an indigo, E as in Edward, and then S as in Sam. So it looks like Fries, but it's uh But that is that is how you say the name Freeze. But they pronounce it Fries, though, like Freeze. There's no difference between the two. It's just so silly of a lack of creativity. Anyway, so his background is.
SPEAKER_02But hey, honestly, if you're gonna turn into like a guy whose whole thing is ice, like you could do a lot worse than having your Christian name being Fries.
SPEAKER_00You're you're you're really close. And it and it is um Austro-Hungarian, so in origin, just like the actor. Um, so uh he plays a molecular yeah, he's from Austria. Oh, okay. I thought he and then the name Schwarzenegger and Fries would be from like Austro-Hungarian. Oh, okay. I thought he was American. Go ahead. Your screen froze, your face was totally serious. Uh anyways, so guys, listen to this. So, folks, listen. He's a molecular biologist who suffers an accident while trying to cryogenically preserve his terminally ill wife. And what's she terminally ill with? Uh McGregor's disease or syndrome. Yeah. Or syndrome. They they call it a disease anti syndrome at different points. Uh uh, anyways, so as a result, he's forced to live in sub-zero suit with powered that is powered by diamonds. I'm not gonna do a bio on every single character, but I could not help myself with that one. Um, so uh we got George Clooney as uh the title character, um, one of the title characters. Um he's playing Bruce Wayne in Batman, and then uh Eric Lloyd is a young Bruce Wayne because there are more than one flashback in this film of Bruce running through hallways as a child. Uh Chris O'Donnell is back as Dick Grayson, um, slash Robin. Um so he's he's uh Batman sidekick. Uh Uma Thurman is playing Dr. Pamela Isley and Poison Ivy. So she's a botanist turned eco-terrorist and wants to kill Batman for some reason because of that. Um Alicia Silverstone. They must have been clueless with this casting because she plays Barbara Wilson uh slash Batgirl. Um, we got the main character of the film, Michael Goh, is back as Alfred Pennyworth. Um we we still have Pat Hangel as Commissioner James Gordon, and I think that's police commissioner, but for some reason he's dressed as a five-star general in every scene in this film. Um and then we have L McPherson as Julie Madison. This is Bruce Wayne's girlfriend who also is suffering from a syndrome. I'm not gonna say what kind.
SPEAKER_01Um, and then we have Wait, I don't get what you're we'll call it vacant syndrome.
SPEAKER_02She's completely vacant syndrome. When you just said those two names, Elle McPherson and what was the other name? Um, her character is Julie Madison. Either of those could have been the character name. I would have this is uh we'll get into it, but a lot of great roles for women in this movie.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god. Well, I'm almost done, but I got another uh titular female character coming up. So we have um Michael Reed McKay. Uh he plays Bane before the accident when he is injected with venom, so when he's still a skinny crackhead, I think. Um we got Vivica A. Fox as um Vandanella Kaiserbaum. Uh she plays Mr. Freeze's assistant and cryogenically frozen wife. Um so what I was saying, Vivica A. Fox is his assistant, and then Vendelella, Vendella Kaiserborn is the wife that Mr. Freeze has in the glass tank. Sorry.
SPEAKER_02So do either of those characters have names or are they wife and assistant?
SPEAKER_00I couldn't find a name for Vivica A. Fox's character.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Um appears in exactly one scene.
SPEAKER_00Yes, exactly. Um Elizabeth Sanders is playing Gossip Gertie. Um, she's Gotham's top gossip columnist, and by the way, she is the wife of Bob Kane. Yes, um and then we're gonna be.
SPEAKER_02Returning from forever.
SPEAKER_00Yes, absolutely. Uh but uh returning from forever, but as different characters is Michael Paul Chan and Kimberly Scott. Um, they both appear as the telescope scientists. Now, Kimberly Scott played his assistant, Maggie.
SPEAKER_02Thank you! I was so I was like, oh Maggie's back, but then I looked it up and it wasn't Maggie.
SPEAKER_00No, no, she's she's one of the telescope scientists. And listeners, you might remember her as One Night from the Abyss. Um, those are the only other the only other movie I've ever seen him in. Then and final credit, I'm sure there's a lot of extras I missed.
SPEAKER_02Wait, and that other guy, I'm sorry, what's the actor's name? Because I assume Michael Paul Chan. He's not the same guy who works at Wayne Industries.
SPEAKER_00Well, he's cle he might he might be the same character, but he's like a floor supervisor um on like the technical division. And I realize telescopes are deeply technical, but he doesn't seem to be an engineer. He seems to be like taking what would be Ed Bakeley Jr.'s position. He's good with Edwards.
SPEAKER_02And Maggie seemed like a more of like a like a executive office manager.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't know.
SPEAKER_02I mean maybe they are the same characters, and we're just being like limited in what we think that's no, she Maggie is not the same character.
SPEAKER_00She is not a scientist in the first in the in Batman Forever. And I I don't know how deep we want to go on the racial film, but I really felt like they were just to diversify uh the audience, which is done in not the audience, but the the cast, which is done in the most offensive ways throughout this film. But we'll get to that.
SPEAKER_02I think that you are giving the film too much credit if you think it even poorly executed the positive intention of having a diverse cast. Perhaps I don't think he was concerned with that in any way whatsoever.
SPEAKER_00There's a scene that I don't know the intention of, but I'm comfortable saying is is so offensive to data coming up. But we're again, we're not there yet. Final cast member I Wanted to um reference is rapper Coolio uh makes a cameo appearance as Jonathan Crane, um, later stating that yeah, so he's he plays the person at the bike race, you know. Remember um that's Coolio. He's listed as Jonathan Crane, who is the scarecrow in the comics, and he was said to reprise his role as the scarecrow in the ultimately canceled sequel Batman Unchained. They were going to name a movie Batman Unchained.
SPEAKER_02That's the most what everything you're saying to me is sick and insane.
SPEAKER_00It's so insane. Um, but yeah, um, I have a little bit more in the background of production, but I feel like you know, I want to let you interject some thoughts. Anything at all in the cast?
SPEAKER_02No, no, I've uh I I have been gleefully interjecting as things come up for me. Please continue.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, I talked about how the box office success led to them wanting to uh continue this tone of the franchise, which I guess meant just you know making money hand over fist. They re-hired director Joel Schumacher um to pilot this film, which you know, I guess if something ain't broke, you know, you don't need to fix it. But but it was broke.
SPEAKER_02And he said it was broke.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes. Um, so Schumacher wanted to pay homage, uh homage to the Campy Style of the 1960s television series, as he had done with the previous film. And the storyline of Batman and Robin was conceived by Schumacher and Goldsman during pre-production on 1996's A Time to Kill. Have you seen that movie?
SPEAKER_02No, I want to talk about Schumacher more broadly, but not when you're discussing the background of the film. I I need I need some help if you've seen more of his filmography, like contextualizing this guy.
SPEAKER_00No, for sure. So uh I talked about how Goldsman expressed concern, and Schumacher's response was basically this needs to be toy friendly. I don't want to linger on that too long. Um, but I will just say I have a note here that Mr. Freeze's blaster was specifically designed by toy manufacturers, uh, Batman creator Bob Kane and Bill Finger. Um, but Batman creator Bob Kane only acted as an official consultant and was heavily involved in the production, giving input on the film script as well as on set. So I say that to attempt to exonerate Akiva Goldsman. I mean, the films that he's won an Oscar for or that he won an Oscar for is The Beautiful Mind, which is a movie that is laughably bad and it won Best Picture. And I don't know if Russell Crowe won Best Actor that year, but I know he was nominated. And it's just it just shows you how how uh poorly things can age. But I say that to give Akiva Goldsman a little bit of exoneration because I really think that who knows what his original script looked like. You know, it seems like it was just chewed up and spit out by so many different people. Um, a note from Chris O'Donnell uh was just that he was delighted to work with a new actor, but he did feel that he and Val Kilmer he enjoyed working with him, so he's a little bit bummed. But Chris O'Donnell, you know, he's not had an enduring career. Um, but from everything I've read from these two films, he seemed like he had a really good attitude, really gave it his best. Whether his best was a good performance, we could talk about, but I don't know. I just enjoy that. I don't know. He doesn't have any negative lore stories around him, but he basically put his best foot forward, is what he was trying to say, and what everyone said on production. But his costume was altered such that uh wearing the face mask was really, really painful and made sweat pool, and then that didn't happen in the last movie. It was just a very uncomfortable experience for him, and he really tried to lead the product. He and he and Arnold Schwarzenegger both uh had the best attitudes on set, is what it reported. And on the one hand, you could say this movie-oh, sorry. On the one hand, you could say Arnold was paid $25 million. Uh darn right he should keep the best attitude. Sure. But you know, Arnold is at the twilight of him still being able to keep in shape, you know, 1997. He looks great. He worked out tirelessly for the role. His contract had to have a written clause in it that he couldn't work more than 12 hours in a day because of some health concerns he had, because Arnold is known for polling 14 to 18 hour days when on set, and does have a good reputation in terms of his decorum and behavior, by and large. I'm sorry if I'm missing something, but I just I admire that, you know. I admire people that work hard even if they're they're paid outrageous sums of money.
SPEAKER_02And I think Well, you're missing, I mean, you are missing the thing where he had like a secret second family.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that wasn't on set.
unknownOkay, fair enough.
SPEAKER_00He doesn't have any any any uh reputation of of uh brandoing it, for instance.
SPEAKER_02I got it, got it, got it, got it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, I mean uh yeah, and he I don't believe and I don't agree with all his political positions or anything like that. I'm just saying his performance on the job is is renowned for how hard he worked. He's a pro. He's a pro. He's an absolute fucking pro. And I think uh he and Uma, I will just say, I think that they put in the most effort in terms of their acting, but we'll come to that later. We talked about George Clooney's casting. Joel Schumacher was a big fan of working with him. They had uh he had seen him in uh I thought this was so funny, Walker, in um what is that, Dusk till dawn. And he thought that guy's my Batman, which I just love. That that was what Schumacher saw, and was like, and and that person should play Batman, cracked me up. But I don't have a lot more on that. It just I was like, that makes sense.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, Clooney had only done a couple movies, yeah. He was still on ER. Yeah, yeah, and I I remember that being, and I and man, I I am such a George Clooney fan, and I really found myself. I mean, this is such a dumb thing to like experience a moment of conscious gratitude for. But I'm like, I am so glad that like filmmakers like the Cohen brothers and Soderbergh figured out how to use this guy and that we got some of the stuff we did from him because he is so great as like uh, you know, kind of either like a self-aware Tomcat or kind of like lovable prick or or a pretentious idiot, you know? Yeah, and absolutely and you I don't think you you definitely see the charm in this, but you don't see a hell of a hell of a lot of anything else. And I'm really glad that this did not put him in movie jail because I I really, really enjoy him in other.
SPEAKER_00He says it, he says that it did put him in movie jail, and he, this is so sweet, listeners. He said he deserved it, which I think is just so generous. I think George Clooney seems like a very generous actor. He can be very funny, he can't, he is obviously very handsome in a particular kind of way. Um, but you know, I just appreciate the level of ownership that he has taken for something that is ultimately not his fault, I don't believe. I mean, his performance is lackluster, but I think that has to do with the constriction of the suit and the baffling nature of the scenes themselves. Um, I mean, Chris O'Donnell is certainly bringing more energy, but I don't think that that makes the performance any better. But yeah, I mean, to your point, I just think directors have found a great way to utilize his skills as an actor. Um, I recently just watched for the first time a movie called The Ides of March, which he uh co-wrote the screenplay of and directed. And it is a terrific, terrific movie in my opinion. He and Ryan Gosling, and it's it's a deeply cynical look in American politics. Um and and I just mentioned that just because I think George Clooney, he doesn't look like they don't look the same, but he very much reminds me of Mitt Romney in that movie. And they're they're they're sort of a similar archetype. And I just love that he has the and it came out in 2011, so Mitt Romney was probably you know gaining momentum in the zeitgeist as an Obama opponent. But Mitt Romney is more just a political uh cardboard cutout, you know, cypher. Yes, exactly. And I just think that it's really cool that George Clooney, you know, to write a movie that good obviously shows a level of talent and creativity that uh, you know, I think is easy to maybe overlook. But you know, just going back to can we can we stay on this for a minute? Oh, please, please, please.
SPEAKER_02Just because it came up organic. You're talking about something that it is in my notes to discuss, and we're talking about it, so might as well do it here. Yeah, yeah. I've never I don't know that I've ever actually seen any of the George Clooney directorial efforts, uh, as a matter of fact. I think this is my first. Okay, because yeah, he's directed three or four movies. Um really, okay. He directed the it's kind of panned, but he directed Suburbicon, the it's which is a Cohen Brothers script. Seen that um, which I've heard is better than it gets credit for. I would agree. Yeah, I didn't hate it. And he directed Goodnight and Good Luck, which I think was definitely up for Best Picture. I don't know if it I did not realize that he wrote that. I don't know if he wrote it. He directed that he directed it. But he may have written and directed it, but he for sure directed it. And he has another Confessions of a Dangerous Mind, I think is a movie that he directed, which I on his WTF, Marin was going on about how much he loves that movie. So anyway, that's actually not what I wanted to say. What I wanted to say is I I also came across his um comments about how bad he is in this movie. And I and I think it was it was gracious. He's also in a position where where he has come so far past this in his career that he can kind of safely comment on it not working. Because he does, he does have some words for the film itself that it's that it is not well directed, that the script is a mess, but he says, but I was bad in it, and he's kind of basically saying, like, yeah, I was a raspberry, and everyone involved has kind of like owned that. Yeah. So okay, I like that he said he was bad in it. If you're gonna shit talk the movie, you should spare some criticism for yourself, right? But I don't think he is bad in this, and I don't know what being good in this movie would be, right? Like, I literally like because when he walks in, there are there are a couple moments where I see a little bit of the George Clooney charm, and I start to kind of like like Bruce Wayne a little bit, and then it like instantly evaporates as soon as anybody has to say anything that is written in this movie, and the tone of it is so egregiously, obnoxiously just like B movie. Right. That I just literally don't know who because because uh the only other like actor that I in this movie that I think that I would say I consider to be a really good actor based on things I've seen them in outside this movie is Alicia Silverstone is is Thurman. Yes. And I just yeah, and I think she sucks in this movie too, but it's but I don't know what I would have her do differently either, yeah. Except be in a different movie.
SPEAKER_00I don't know how you could say what being good in this movie would look like either. I think that's really well put. I think commit in terms of commitment to the role, I think Schwarzenegger and Thurman are the most committed. And and rightfully so, on the case of Schwarzenegger, he's paid, like I said, $25 million. Um, a couple of funny things on, and I don't want to just bypass Clooney, but I just want can I tell you a couple of funny Schwarzenegger things about this movie?
SPEAKER_02Yes, because I want to I I actually do think he is the is the best part of the movie.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02So um So I like how you say that he committed to it so much because he makes me laugh a few times in parts that feel like they're supposed to make me laugh.
SPEAKER_00Yes, I agree. And and I would say Clooney does that in parts that aren't supposed to, but that's a way that I really appreciate his timing in this film, is he is the funniest, where I think it's up for debate if he knew the tone of the scene or not. But um before they cast or got Schwarzenegger, they they were looking at Ed Harris. Okay, it could make sense. He's another bald, chiseled gentleman. Anthony Hopkins, no. Uh, but maybe in like more the heart of Ice Fane, if they're gonna take it seriously, Anthony Hopkins at this time could have worked. But I like Anthony.
SPEAKER_02I I would like that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Um, Patrick Stewart, where they were all considered for the role of Mr. Freeze. Patrick Stewart has since like vehemently denied that he was up for it, but who cares? I just thought that was interesting. Um uh Mr. Freeze's armor was made by an armorer, Terry English, um, who estimated that the costume cost over $1.5 million to develop and make. And and I just want to hone in on that because it does look very plastic and bad, but when you see this thing on display at um like uh Warner Brothers lots rather, or Warner Brothers store, I'm not sure where it's on display, but it looks incredible. And there are moments where um throughout the film where I'm like, oh, whoa, like I wouldn't have gone with this design, but you could tell that the suit isn't as bad as it looks almost all the time. And and maybe that's just my opinion. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02No, I think there is something kind of cool. You know what I think is cool about the suit is the chest plate that because it's on Arnold's crazy buff body, and then it's and then you know, and then it adds all these uh ripples tubes and stuff, yeah. Right, but I just mean it's like every everyone in this movie is in is in a like a bust that is cartoonishly muscled, including the the most cartoonishly muscled person working in Hollywood. Right. But the giant piece with the pecs has this cool thing where it's like a clear chest plate, and then inside of it it looks like it's like this translucent, kind of moving blue, icy goo. And I thought that was cool because it kind of is like you don't ever see him, you don't ever see him bare chested, and so it kind of like begs the question of like what's actually going on under the suit. And I kind of liked picturing that under the suit he's like in Morton Joe in Fury Road, where in the beg you that guy has a huge buff chiseled chest plate on, but in the beginning you see he's this weird, sick old man, yeah, and they're putting this body armor for him to go play this like you know, dictator demigod figure to the starving hordes. And I I enjoyed thinking like, what if he's really like sick and and kind of uh uh a gaunt under there?
SPEAKER_00Right. And then I would imagine uh, you know, that you had those those questions answered when he's super buff when he's in Arco Asylum and can beat up his prison guards.
SPEAKER_02And in the flashbacks when he's in his scientist when he's Arnold Schwarzenegger, the scientist.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, you mean Schwarzenegger?
SPEAKER_02Right. It's just um I mean look, people can be in shape and smart, it happens all the time. But the idea of like a scientist bodybuilder is so fucking. No, decathlete. They make a point to say decathlete in the boss or when they're examining him. Yeah, we have to explain why the scientist is the buffest person alive.
SPEAKER_00I know, and as we all know, decathletes look like Bruce Jenner or a Caitlin Jenner. So it's it's it's funny that they made it that. But uh yeah, no, they mentioned twice that he's a two-time decathlete champion when they're when a Batman and Robin are in the Batcave uh finding out about him. But I'm I'm almost done here.
SPEAKER_02He works out a ton. This makes sense.
SPEAKER_00But um, yeah, I think his armor looks cool. It doesn't look cool in this movie, but there are a few moments where I could tell that a lot of work went into it. And of the suits I would say worn in this movie, it looks the coolest. And if you want to look at photos on the internet of it on display, you can see how much work went into this thing. Uh Schwarzenegger wore a bald cap, which I think is interesting because I think he actually does look like he's bald. Yeah. Um they pulled it off. Yeah, he declined to shave his head and he wore blue LEDs in his mouth and had acrylic paint applied. That that is another aspect I think where I'm not gonna say it's well shot or it looks so memorable and cool, but yeah, I think in the the moments where it's tied in on his face and he's wearing blue contacts and he's painted uh is is good application of hair and makeup, you know. So so good job there, guys. Can I just comment? You know, I got a comment about the bald of it all. Oh, please, yeah, I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_02Which is uh Schwarzenegger looks good with a chrome dome. I I was kind of like this is a more this is a more appealing look to me than than the crew cut that he's famous for.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, I think when he was still, I mean, and what's interesting about Arnold is that like you know, we talk about how you know, kind of I I think of Terminator 2, the the years after that, when he was in Jingle All the Way, Junior. Junior is actually the first appearance of Schmartsenager. But you know, uh folks, Arnold was 37 years old in Terminator 1, which came out in 1984. So by the time T2 is coming out, he's he's 45 years old. And and obviously, you know, depending on how you eat and how you take care of your body, sure, you could still cut a very dashing figure at that age, but it's much harder to you have to work much harder. And, you know, it's just impressive to me that Arnold maintained such a cut physique even into this era, right? I mean, Arnold was never like Brad Pitt in Fight Club, but you know, he was in his 50s at this point, is what I mean to say. And it's just impressive. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um I would yeah, I wouldn't have guessed that.
SPEAKER_00The LEDs he wore in his mouth leaked battery acid into his mouth a couple different times. So they had to be wrapped in balloons um to prohibit this from happening. His prost his prosthetic.
SPEAKER_02So it's like a real life, it's like a real life version of that moment of The Simpsons where McBain says, My eyes, the goggles, do nothing.
SPEAKER_00Oh shit, I screwed it up. I love that moment. I love that moment in context or not. It's just so funny. Um, but yeah, dude, it took six hours uh to apply this each day. And the extensive time that it consumed to get him ready to uh to act in hair and makeup significantly restricted his shooting time. Um, as like I said, his contract was limited to 12 work hours a day. And then uh last little bit, I don't mean to leave on the cast so long, but Uma Thurman, uh Demi Moore, Sharon Stone, and Julia Roberts were all considered for the role of Poison Ivy. Obviously, Uma Thurman got the part, but really interesting range of potential actors there. I think Julia Roberts is the one that makes the most sense, but they're all kind of similar except Sharon Stone. God love her, she's a beautiful woman, a lot older than these other actors. And then the last on uh the Femme Feetals, uh, Alicia Silverstone was the only choice for Batgirl. So that means somebody wrote this role for Alicia Silverstone, folks. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh, and prior to feeling no one else could have done this this truly meaty, meaty part.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, uh well, and cut from the film too, is the scene where she has dental surgery to explain why her bottom lip is drooping all the time. But that was also written into the film. But after I cover the kind of general background in the cast, you've taken us through the plot of each film. Are you comfortable doing that with this crazy thing today, Walker?
SPEAKER_02Yes. So you want me to tell you what this movie's about? To the best of my recollection and ability.
SPEAKER_00Me and the audience, yeah.
SPEAKER_02This is the first film in this franchise where I honestly have no earthly idea what the story of this one really is. But I will do my best. Now, you stated earlier that Alfred is the main character of this film. One of my early notes in this uh when I was watching this movie says, Did Alfred need a subplot? And then moments later I answered my own question and wrote, no. But as far as I can tell, the the the narrative thrust that this movie is really trying to create. Try not to use such big words, please, when talking about this movie. The story be that uh it's well, basically, this movie's called Batman and Robin, right? And to that end, this movie basically just is a complete retread of the narrative conflict between Batman and Robin in the last movie, right? In the last movie, it's about Bruce learning to trust Dick and treat him as a partner. And by the end of the movie, he has learned to trust Dick and treated him as a partner. They just completely wipe that all away, and the whole the whole story between Batman and Robin is Robin whining, you don't treat me as a partner, and Batman saying, I can't treat you as a partner. So there's that, yeah, you know, in this one, the story with the villains, it seems to really, really have boiled it down to the essentials. I feel like for every one of these movies, I state that while I do think the tone of superhero movies, of Batman in particular, later on becomes oppressively dark and gritty with the Nolan verse, it it does kind of, you know, I feel like there is a nice middle ground between those things, which is called comic books. If you read a Batman comic, it grounds you enough in the world that you can take it seriously and suspend your disbelief for the time that you're being told this story, if it's done well. I feel like the Tim Burton movies where while they do struggle at different points in different ways narratively, I do think that they have a nice tone in that it's like, yeah, we are gonna treat this Batman world as the real world for the duration of this two-hour movie. Sure. Because at a certain point, if it's not a comedy, if you don't take it a little bit seriously, why do I? Why do I care? Why do I care if I'm just watching this poorly made thing where it seems like Joel Schumacher's approach to it is like, hey, Batman is stupid. So this movie is stupid. Right. All that to say, I don't really even know how to sum up the story in terms of Batman and his relationship to the villains. It's just a given that they hate Batman and are adversaries of his, right? In the other movies, there is some there is some attention paid to how Batman has foiled their objectives in some way enough for them to have a vendetta against Batman. That is not here in this case. Victor Freeze, as you said, is in a suit powered by diamonds. So he's stealing diamonds. And Poison Ivy's story is, I feel like it's a very like kind of in a very these movies don't need to be messaging movies at all. But I also feel like wow, what an innocent time or a stupid time. Not even innocent. What a stupid time culturally that in 1997 we're still unconcerned enough with the degradation of this planet that it's just the fact that this woman cares about that is just a punchline. It's all it ever is in this movie. I don't feel like Oh, I don't agree with that.
SPEAKER_00I think the scene where she's at the I I agree with it in large part, but it there is one scene. Um, and and we're not gonna uh necessarily go through beat by beat. So I think it's okay to highlight the scene now in the the the telescope unveiling. You know how every major city, Walker, you live in the Bay Area, I live in Sacramento Capitol, those telescope unveilings, just like the tree lighting ceremony that we go to every every other week.
SPEAKER_02It's an annual ceremony where we go, what is the telescope going? I mean, the Oakland Hills, there's like perfect example hundreds of telescopes up there at this point because we do this every year. And it's a it's a butt. Meanwhile, our roads are some of the worst roads in the country.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah. So um at the telescope unveiling, where she had Pamela Isley, we'll talk about her transformation later, but she is essentially poison ivy, but she's much like Edward Nigma when he has his the box unveiling, you know, he can kind of alternate between the two. So she's back as a a scientist who is working in South America under Wade Enterprise's former corporate sponsorship. And I do think that there's some attention given to the idea. Basically, she's making the Thanos argument, uh, uh, Gen Z listeners, you know, that like obviously uh uh any genocide is is inexcusable, regardless how justifiable you may think uh the future of humanity may be. That's just not a route to go down. But in the Thanos case, I think that movie is really well written in that you do at a certain point go, okay, well, what is my counter argument, not necessarily from a moral ground, but from the logical argument that he's making. He's not saying kill all of this race of people. He's saying kill half of every person in existence. And I feel like in a less sophisticated way, she's making that argument of like the degradation of the planet is so bad, and in order for our human species to survive, you know, take a take a step back and look at us as an animal, you know, there has to be some sort of decision making made. Again, I don't empathize with those arguments, but that is the one time where she makes some sort of logical sense. The movie is so bad that it's hard to put it in that context. But I I don't think that she's only meant to be ridiculous because she holds that. But I could be wrong. I mean, I think that you could look at it either way.
SPEAKER_02I I know I do think that that is in there, but I think that because they make her position so ridiculous that she it's like I don't know. I I feel that because it's the they don't ever give her an emp her agenda is so extreme from the get-go. Before she even becomes poison ivy, she loves plants more than she loves people. Yeah. And so I feel like her being the stand-in for this environmental movement that was well established at the time, even though climate change was not the conventional wisdom that it is now, and was not talked about in mainstream terms as the existential crisis that it is now, even though in the span of a planet's lifetime from now until 1997 is nothing but in terms of culture. Things change a lot, right? Yeah. So the fact that it's like that we don't ever see her like make a point that has more validity than that, yeah, just made me feel like this movie is really holding her up as an object of buffoonery and kind of derision.
SPEAKER_00Dude, and to that, I think that's so well said. And to that point, too, uh, you know, um, again, my cultural awareness uh of climate change is shaped by the fact that I am now in my 30s. So uh naturally I'm going to think, oh, well, it's more relevant and more in the zeitgeist than it's ever been. It is. I mean, environmentalism in America was really popularized by uh we would say Native American now, but it was called the Crying Indian commercial ironized Cody, when the person throws the litter at his feet. And that was in 1973, I want to say. So it's, you know, not that folks weren't passionate about the environmental, the environment and the degradation of it. We had people writing about it in America during the Industrial Revolution, right? But our understanding of it really came into, like Walker was saying, I think, in the public zeitgeist in America, I would say in the 1970s, you mentioned Mad Men earlier, you know, people would literally litter that willy-nilly. So at least littering. But I think all that to say, I think that from a Joel Schumacher perspective, who was born, I want to say in the 1940s, he's since passed away, you would you can really see that he sees environmentally passionate people as like Greenpeace that would attack a ship that is doing dolphin hunting, which by the way, I think is kind of badass, but as like these crazy sort of 12 monkeys, agenda-driven people, like a Pamela Isley, you know, who is off her rocker and only insane, and Bruce shuts her down by saying the planet would starve to death and like blah blah blah on that scene that I was just referencing, where she looks like a psychopath for even being environmentally passionate. So I agree with you.
SPEAKER_02And if you compare it to like the agenda of Mr. Freeze, it's like, okay, so Poison Ivy's agenda is that she wants to kill a huge amount of the global human population in order for plants, which she loves more than people, to be able to proliferate. Mr. Freeze wants to save his wife.
SPEAKER_00And freeze everything. And she somehow thinks they'd be a good team. It's like, hello, frost.
SPEAKER_02So let's get back to the story because this is I again, all I'm keen in on is that I am completely baffled as to how the agendas of these two villains intersect, except that they both hate Batman. I am also uh none the wiser to why that is. Um, except I guess if we want to do crimes and Batman is going to impede that in some way. It does become a plot point, not a plot point, it does become casually referenced late in the movie that apparently Poison Ivy is also romantically infatuated with Mr. Freeze.
SPEAKER_00Well, Walker, which is well that women use their sexuality to to twist and manipulate us. That's all that they do.
SPEAKER_02Right. But the movie gets very feminist later, where one of the women says, You're a bitch for doing that. So this movie is so hateful to women. It is un and the last one we talked a lot about the last one, does not do womankind any favors in its references.
SPEAKER_00This one is marketably worse, I would say.
SPEAKER_02This one feels like like Akiva and Schumacher's like fucking like incel incel manifesto or something.
SPEAKER_00Oh my gosh, but Schumacher, not an incel, Schumacher, a very uh proud and out gay man. Yeah, and and I just want to say this is this is not my territory. We may end up cutting this, but kind of in the same way that uh James Cameron pioneered, uh, I think it's known as like first wave feminism or whatever. And by the way, he didn't pioneer it, women did. But I'm just saying the way he did on screen, having a character like Ripley um manifested it on screen, absolutely, and did it in such a great way. And this is a route to go of making your character so awesome that you don't really think about as the viewer, oh, this is a woman. But you do with Ripley because she has the maternal instinct. It's so smartly written. I love it. It highlights her femininity, which is a beautiful, awesome fucking thing, and her badassery, as most women in our life tend to do, right? They don't have to do both of the things that I'm saying, but like it's so smartly written. But James Cameron has since, uh, being an older person now criticized like Wonder Woman, for instance, for being like, you know, why does she, you know, why does it highlight her? Exactly. And and to me, that's a little bit of a dated perspective in my mind, right? But uh, I think in the same way, I say that as an example because Schumacher, yeah, being a gay person in America or in the world, um, you know, was was no small order in the time that he grew up in in the 1960s, right? Right. And but I think in the same way as Cameron has since gone on record to sort of date things, these movies are so much that way. I'm like, it paints gay, even though it's not a gay movie, but the homo eroticism is so in your face and so ridiculous. Where I'm like, I I know gay people and they're not all this ridiculous. That's so offensive if I were if I were a gay person. Again, we can cut that. I don't have a problem saying it, though. I think this movie is so offensive to women and gay people.
SPEAKER_02It's offensive to all people.
SPEAKER_00Anyways, sorry, please go ahead.
SPEAKER_02No, I mean, yeah, exactly. It's it it's just the the the fact that you find out three-quarters of the way through this movie that poison ivy is infatuated. The way you find out that she is sexually infatuated with Mr. Freeze is that she kills his cryogenically frozen wife because I believe as she puts it, this is a one-woman show. And I was like, She's into Mr. Freeze, and it made me realize this movie thinks that's just a given that all these female characters, the only objective they could possibly have is to get with these men. And then later, yeah, like you said, Batgirl kicks Uma Thurman's ass and is like, oh, you're one of those women who uses your sexuality to get what you want. And it's like, oh, right. And and it's like uh being sexual is bad. You know, it's just it and and you can tell that the movie at that point is like, check out the awesome girl power that we're doing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, no, totally. I mean, I I I totally agree. I think it is always a curveball of this film because I will just say on record listeners, I've seen this film at least 20 times. It always to this day is, yeah. I mean, 20 times, not not a hundred times, like Batman 1989. That's one fifth.
SPEAKER_02No, no, but talk about the why, why uh have you gone back? Like, did you at one point did you like this movie, or did you always dislike it but keep going back to see if it was actually that bad, or what what do you hate watch it? What's the 20 is a lot. I've seen it three.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I would just say I I've gone back as a as a kid and as a teenager to see if it was truly this bad. And usually when I start the Batman franchise from the 1990s or 1989 onward, I will uh just end up with the biggest. I just want to see the whole thing, yeah. Yeah, but all I all I was gonna say though about um uh oh darn, I can't remember what I was gonna say. So it's okay.
SPEAKER_02But uh well we were talking about the like the like the uh horrifically tone-deaf like attempts at like girl girl power in this movie.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, I was gonna say though, all everything that catches or the thing that always consistently catches me by surprise and I forget is that Poison Ivy does seemingly see herself as being romantic with Mr. Freeze because it just comes out of fucking nowhere. And you know, like the team up is so ham-fisted and and you know, laughable, but like there's at least a moment where they have that conversation and they see that like we could work together for some reason. So it at least attempts to do that. But yeah, there's no no indicator that she wants to be romantically involved with him until she outright states it, which is is really a consistent flaw and theme of this movie is characters just outright stating uh because they think the audience can't figure anything out without a narrative dialogue. But but again, unless you're done with the plot, I'd like you to to keep going before I kind of go into my general thoughts.
SPEAKER_02I'm glad that I'm glad that me attempting to describe the story of this movie is generating conversation because again, I I I I I can barely put a coherent summation of what this movie is to be.
SPEAKER_00But we're three quarters of the way through it when you talk about it.
SPEAKER_02There is there is so there is one other key, two other key components to this movie, which is Alfred is dying of McGregor's syndrome or disease. Zach is making a really good Alfred face right now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's the face of Alfred Cumming, which is the face he makes every time it looks like he's just blowing a load, standing up.
SPEAKER_02Do you think that when Alfred ejaculates, he goes, It's fishy swell, sir.
SPEAKER_01It's supposed to be warm. It's supposed to be warm. I'm so grossed out. So Alfred is sick with McGrath. It's supposed to be in your throat.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so Alfred is passing away of McGregor disease stage one, which in this world, I guess stage one is the worst. Right? Because in in medical terms, it's stage four is the worst, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, stage four, there is no stage five. So yeah, you're terminal at stage four. Right. But as Johnny Sack says, there is a stage.
SPEAKER_02A doctor comes in and goes, it's stage one of McGregor's disease. All you can do is make him comfortable. What the fuck is stage four? Well, there is Why is there even stages if there's only stage one is terminal? I know, I know I completely agree with you. Alfred is having his own mini-movie within this one where he's dying in another room, and as he's dying, he is uh carrying out sweating and carrying out some sort of incomprehensible subplot where he's trying to track down his long-lost brother Wilfred. Is his name really Wilfred? Mm-hmm. Who's also a butler? And I we'll talk about what it results in because I don't I don't understand what's going on here, except that apparently butlering is a family trade in the Pennyworth uh line. But this gets us into the other big part of this movie, which is his niece Barbara shows up to visit him in inexplicably dressed as a Catholic schoolgirl. And she is the Batgirl of this movie. And the the movie is about Batman learning to treat Dick Grayson as a partner and Batgirl joining the ranks and him fighting Poison Ivy, Mr. Freeze, and Bane, who we haven't even really talked about. But honestly, it I'm talking about it in such broad strokes because nothing else about the story mechanics makes any sense to me. Do you have anything to add?
SPEAKER_00Uh no, I mean I really don't, except for that uh Barbara Pennyworth, you know, you mentioned that apparently butlering is a family tradition, uh, much like indentured servitude, you know, and so forth. But one of Barbara's goals that she mentions that has no follow-up or resolution is to break the family tradition of Alfred being a butler, and her and Dick Grayson have a very weird conversation about whether or not Alfred is happy. And it's like, I'm sorry. I mean, every life matters. Uh, and and I know the elderly are an oft-looked um uh just societal group that we don't treat with enough respect. But Alfred is 955 years old. His life and shots at being happy or doing something different are over. I don't give a fuck if he was happy or not. You know, I mean it's such a weird plot point that she is passionate about like breaking him out.
SPEAKER_02And you know, well, it's also weird. I thought that scene was very good.
SPEAKER_00There is no resolve if he's happy or not.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's it's yeah, it is very strange because A, Alfred does seem to be genuinely fulfilled by by his life of working for the Waynes. And he seem, I mean, he seems to find a real nobility in it. But also, look, I am all for like class consciousness getting injected into any movie and discussing about like the conditions of working people. But Alfred is pretty low on the list of workers that we need to liberate, as far as I'm concerned. Like, it's not indentured servitude. He I my my assumption is that he is highly paid for what he does, which as far as I can tell, is you know, very little kind of Batman's gopher, and then you know, once a year he lets an unauthorized person into the bat cave and then he calls it a day, collects his 4010K, collects his uh what have I tried to say? 401k 401k and you know, and and health benefits. Although, does he have health benefits? Is that why he's dying of McGregor's disease?
SPEAKER_00I think he does because you'll notice not, you know, we are at the kind of The Doctor did do a house call. That's a thing. That's what I was just gonna say. And you know, in today's day and age, if a doctor's doing a house call, you have that doctor on retainer. So I think he gets to partake of the benefits. And uh uh, I don't mean to rush you, but since we're talking about Alfred's McGregor syndrome and his subsequent healing, uh can you take us through just like the very last little bit of the movie?
SPEAKER_02Uh Alfred. Oh, oh, yes, okay, Zach, because uh you I'm gonna be honest. Last 15 minutes of this movie. I was looking at my phone a lot. I'm gonna I'm gonna just say that. So if I missed something here, you let me know. But editing your notes, of course. The notes also drop off at this time. Um at the end of this movie, when so Poison Ivy, uh, there's no redemption for her. She's a dirty woman, so she is carted off to Arkham, but there is like a real like Luke Skywalker, Darth Vader, there is still good in you moment between uh Mr. Freeze and Batman, where Batman is like basically like, hey, you want to save your wife from McGregor's disease. I got she has stage three. Okay.
SPEAKER_00They say that that is wife has stage three, which is okay, it can't be healed yet.
SPEAKER_02At stage one, all you can do is make them comfortable. At stage two, all you can do is cryogenically freeze them. So I wonder, or stage three, you have to cryogenically freeze them. I wonder like at stage two, it's like, I don't like uh cash their social security checks and have a good time, I guess. I don't know. But so basically, Batman is like, hey, you know, we can that like what I said, like I know that you were this brilliant doctor. You're that's still in there. I need you need to save your wife. I need to save this 90-year-old man who I won't let just peacefully go into the night because I need him to like bring me sandwiches at 3 a.m. Can we work together here? At this point, Dr. Freeze reveals the cure for McGregor's disease. Stage one. From his stage, maybe stage two is weirdly the only terminal phase is in the middle. It's like stage one, just get comfortable. Stage three, freeze your ass and wait for a cure. Stage two, you're dead. If you don't make it through stage two, but it's the it's the bad Luke Eric's disease at stage two.
SPEAKER_03I thought it was the good Hodgkins.
SPEAKER_02Remember that? There is no good Hodgkins, there's just Hodgkins. Um, but Mr. Freeze pulls this cure out of this like uh armor plate in his suit. Zach, and and then the next we see uh he uh Batman puts it in an IV drip for Alfred that happened to be modified to accommodate a glow stick tube, which I thought was really funny. Which is kind of a return of the glow sticks from Batman Forever, like I makes you wonder about Joel Schumacher's nightlife that he has glow sticks on the brain. This heavily I have no questions about it, but yeah. But so did I miss something, or did Mr. Freeze's weird ass literally have the cure this whole time? Why was he doing this?
SPEAKER_00Well, uh, because I think that they sneak in at a couple different moments that he would need to amp up his research through more diamonds and more like freezing of the city to somehow achieve healing his wife, who is cryogenically frozen but is not fully dead dead, which I also don't understand. But I think that he had gotten so far in his research through like stealing diamonds and stuff to where he could because Alfred is about to die, he's not dead yet, even though yes, the doctor contradicts that by saying all you could do is make him comfortable. So I think he had gotten far enough along in his research to where if somebody was in Alfred's stage where they're just sweating a lot and looking really nervous, then like that's how far he had come. But but yeah, uh at the stage where his wife needed to be cryogenically frozen, he had not developed a cure. And I just want to say, too, when he took hands over the cure to Batman, this is how little thought goes into the logic of each and every moment. He pulls it out of his like predator arm switch that he has, right? And then he Hands Batman two tubes of the cure, and then in the next scene we see only one tube is required. So why not have him just have had one tube? I think the other tube was for for his wife. But he hands them both. In case Alfred gets it again.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, maybe. Yeah. There's a real, there's a there's a real relapse rate with McGregor's.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, I mean, would you call that the end of the film though? Uh after he gives it they, you know, all the super friends hug. I think there's one shot at Arkham.
SPEAKER_02And then it shows it, yes, and then it shows them running, the three of them running behind the bat si in front of the bat signal. And Bruce has none of the misgivings about adding a third member to the team that he did about adding a second member.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. And um, there's one critical scene though that I I want to highlight. That is, I think, the last scene of the movie before uh they're running in frame against the bat signal and and George Clooney's bat ears are wiggling. But prior to that ending moment, it goes back to Arkham Asylum. Now, you had said that that uh Poison Ivy unceremoniously dies, and I would agree with that. By the way, folks, the moment that she dies, she the scene starts with her in a Venus flytrap opening and obeying her, and yet the scene of her death ends with her being eaten by the same Venus flytrap that suddenly is hungry for her. So she no longer has control for some reason. But then I thought she died. Again, this is another moment I always forget. There is a last little bit in Arkham where they have essentially put them as cellmates together. And because it is revealed to Mr. Freeze by Batman that uh Pamela Isley slash Poison Ivy killed um Mr. Freeze's wife out of jealousy, he finds that out, which is kind of the bargaining chip that Batman uses to get the cure for McGregor syndrome. So he's now mad at Poison Ivy and heartbroken, and she's in Arkham Asylum. They put them in a cell together, and I got total prison rape vibes because he says, I'm gonna make your life a living hell. And I'm like, okay, well, how's he gonna do that if he's not gonna kill her? He's gonna, it was really uncomfortable for me.
SPEAKER_02I thought it was really weird too that it's not that he's there to kill her, he's there to like somehow torment her for the rest of her talent.
SPEAKER_00And where does your mind go? This giant six foot four dude is threatening a skinny woman in prison. I'm like, this cannot be good. And they should have reshot the scene.
SPEAKER_02Honestly, dude, I was like, oh, they Jeffrey Epsteined her. It's like, oh, that looks like she killed herself, even though we had this hit man in the same cell with her. Yeah, we should make shirts that are like poison ivy didn't kill herself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, just a baffling conclusion of the film. Uh, I have some notes, but I I still would love to kick it over to you if you have anything else.
SPEAKER_02Well, let's just let's just drill down on McGregor's for a second here while we're talking about it. You talked about how the main symptom is sweatiness. And ejaculating it. Which it does. Alfred looks like he's ejaculating, folks. I swear to God. So, okay, you're saying that his sick face is an O face.
SPEAKER_03Yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Now, and you also talked about this very bizarre scene where they like try to briefly ask the question of like, how is Alfred treated as an employee? That scene, even though I do agree with you, or or maybe it was even I who said it, that I don't think that Alfred is necessarily like at the rung of the working class that most workers like I'm I'm not putting Alfred in with like the uh like the unionization effort for butlers to billionaires to me is not as pressing as it is for maybe like you know, am Amazon fulfillment center workers.
SPEAKER_00The hierarchy for me goes like the the folks that took their own life jumping off of the building in China where Apple iPhones are manufactured, then Alfred.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, he's the second, second most uh then Amazon fulfillment workers. Yeah, and then all the the children make our clothes. Yeah, exactly. But first we gotta, I mean, hey, if we can't help our own butlers, how are we gonna help the children in the diamond mines? But okay, so even though even though I'm not like particularly concerned about Alfred's working conditions, I did think that that conversation was interesting because it did get into the very uncomfortable justifications that have been used to justify slavery and then and then uh servitude and and are used to justify low wage jobs now. They're happy, they're happy, right? It's like there's no resolve to that counterpoint. No, she's like, I don't think he's happy, and or she's like, is he family? He's your servant or whatever, and he goes, Yo, cleans up. Alfred's happy, and she's kind of like, Oh, okay. And that's the exact same bullshit they say now that it's like Target isn't a place that you come to get paid minimum wage so you can afford to feed your kids. It's a family, you're a team member. So that did crack me up. And then there's another conversation about Alfred because she's trying to tell him, you think Alfred's happy, but he's actually sick and he's too proud to show you, right? There's a follow-up scene where Dick Grayson is talking to Bruce Wayne and he's like, Barbara thinks Alfred's sick. This is the very next scene, Walker. Yes. And George Clooney goes, George Clooney goes, Alfred's not sick. He's dying. Okay, well then he is sick. He's not dying of a car accident, he's not dying of murder, he's dying of McGregor syndrome. So you're being pretty proud to hear splitting hair with me, splitting hairs with me about this.
SPEAKER_00And George Clooney has the smuggest grin when he delivers this news to Dick.
SPEAKER_02I mean, he has that on his face the whole time. Also, George Clooney enters multiple scenes, kind of toweling himself off as if he just got done working out, which means if he has any moisture on his face or body at all. Did you notice that he's often dry? He's often in a robe or or like a gym towel. Like, and it it did make me think how funny it would be. I was kind of like, this reminds me the most of his character in Burn After Reading, as it does in anything else where that character. So if you haven't seen it, his character's like a serial cheating, like sex addict, basically. And every scene either begins or ends with him being like, I think I'm gonna get a run in, going and going on like a super long jog. And so whenever Batman comes in toweling himself off, I kind of picture that he either just had like promiscuous sex or ran five miles. But then then Alfred and Batman have a scene together where George Clooney's like, I know you're sick, and Alfred says, and I wrote this down, uh a gentleman does not discuss his ailments, it is not civilized. And I was like, damn, that actually does break my heart and does make me think that maybe Barbara like has a whole like is Alfred okay? Like, do we need like a some sort of you know regulatory oversight on for yeah, for butlers to an openness for butlers to kind of sell like report, not just like self-care?
SPEAKER_00This is more of an open environment for butlers, like an HR department.
SPEAKER_02The same way there's a movement now for like you know, mental health to be addressed among like young men, you know, like it's like we're deconstructing this idea of masculinity being something where you don't talk about your feelings. Does butlering have to be something where you don't discuss your ailments?
SPEAKER_00No, I don't think so. I mean, I just I don't know a lot of people that have butlers though, so I don't know how to help them unionize, you know? But that's true.
SPEAKER_02Maybe we should get maybe this podcast should get a butler and we could start there. And then people will be like, do they pay this guy? And we'll be like, he's happy.
SPEAKER_00No, we're an equal opportunity employee. She, they are happy, we could say.
SPEAKER_02Yes, and they what they to them payment is getting to hear us discuss radio. Absolutely, absolutely. That was just all I wanted to talk about about the Alfred of It All. But what are some key scenes for you that you want to make sure we drill down on?
SPEAKER_00So, yeah, so Walker, I love that you honed in so much on the Alfred of It All. Uh, you know, the main character. At least it should have been called Batman, Robin, and Alfred, I think, you know, in fairness. Maybe he's not the main main character, but he should be.
SPEAKER_02And Alfred Kama and his niece Batgirl, too.
SPEAKER_00Bruce, it's me, Barbara. Um, but uh uh yeah, my general thoughts um that I would just like to say is Batman and Robin is a very interesting experiment in trying to understand what makes a movie good or bad by conventional standards. And I want to cite uh my source on this. Um, we should say this is a panned movie. Yes, this is a panned movie. It is so much, it is is just so bad. I said by conventional standards because obviously art, all art is subjective, but I do I would say this falls under kind of the unifying banner of what people tend to be consider a poor filmmaking. Um and I remember uh Paul Rust um in a podcast I know that we're both huge fans of that you turned me on to with Gorley and Rust. He talked about, like he's somebody who's actually been to film school. And he talked about um when he was in college that as a freshman or sophomore, when you know you really feel like this is his words, not mine. I'm paraphrasing, but you feel like your appreciation and depth of understanding of film is really increasing in the the dry section of the year, which is usually thought to be like January and February. You know, on a Monday they came back uh to school and the and so sitting down for class, there one of the professors said, What did you all go out and see this weekend at the movies? And it was, you know, a month where it was like only rom-coms, you know, and and nothing good. And they all went like, nothing, there's nothing good. And he's like, You guys should be going to the movies every single weekend day that you can. There's a dollar theater down the street, your film students. You cannot tell me that you understand what is bad and good at this point. And if you do, you need to be out there seeing movies to find out what the small minor differences between something that is quote unquote good and baddest. And you can see that it's really just a couple of minor differences. And again, I'm paraphrasing, I'm not saying this is an exact quote, but this is a story that Paul Russ told. And if he ever has the pleasure of listening to the show, I know he wouldn't mind because that is like the kind of guy he is. He has such humility, and he's somebody who I would say understands writing so well. So, with that being said, I just want to say that I think Batman and Robin is a prime example of these small little differences making something so much marketably worse than the previous. I would say, I'm talking about the first two films, by the way, which we acknowledge have their problems, but are is universal are universally better, right? And you could say, oh, well, the acting's better in those films. That's true. But the the the the ensemble of this movie of the cast, it might be dated in 2023 terms. And I mean by that, only one of the main cast members being George Clooney has sustained a career like with longevity.
SPEAKER_02He's the only person who's remains on the A-list out of everything.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Arnold Schwarzenegger's sort of aged out of the type of roles he would take. He's obviously had a very successful career. But Chris O'Donnell, I think, is like on one of the CSI shows. Uma Thurman, call it Hollywood Sexism. I actually do think it is that in her case. Uh, you know, she's not really getting great work anymore. Um, but she is a very talented actress who's done some amazing work, you know.
SPEAKER_02Before and after this movie.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, before and after. Um and and not just in the Quentin Tarantino films. A lot of folks don't know this movie, but uh the lame as a rob, the non-musical version. She plays uh Cosette's mother. I can't remember the character's name. I think she's phenomenal in that movie, and that is the same year as this movie. So she's a talented uh the cast is good, is what I'm trying to say. Um, but the cast was maybe better in Batman Returns, for instance, or Batman. We don't have Jack Nicholson, Michael Keaton, Michelle Pfeiffer, we talked a lot about. Um, but yeah, I just think that there was more than enough money to fund this project, more money than there had been for any of the previous films. Uh, you know, you have a special effects budget, you have a great casting crew. Director School director Joel Schumacher, I would say has never been a great director at all, but he knows what he's doing. You know, he knew what he was doing, I would say. You know, I've seen his other films. There's not the Dutch Tilts, the the movie ISTV'd seen is a time to kill. That is a it's dated, and I would, I'm sure if I was a person of color, I would see this even clearer. But it's it's a dated commentary on racial injustice in America. And what I mean by that, listeners, is it's Matthew McConaughey is a white savior, um, you know, but it's a phenomenal Samuel L. Jackson performance. It's a good Matthew McConaughey performance, Sandra Bulk's good in it. I'm not recommending it on the merits of what it has to say about race, it's just it's a good movie, it's decently shot. So I'm saying that he's competent, he seems incompetent with what he does with camera operation, set, all that. And I understand those are other teams of people, but it's all under the banner of the number one.
SPEAKER_02He's in charge of it all.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I mean, so everything looks like shit. You're responsible for how the movie looks as the director. Yes, and the the writer, I mentioned Akiva Goldsman, A Beautiful Mind Might Be Dated. He knows how to write a screenplay. So I I'm just trying to say again to tie it all together that Batman and Robin is it's not that it's that different from any of the other Batman films made before and after. Um, and I want to say more on that later, but it's these small details that the devil resides in that make this movie such a baffling mess. And and and I I want to focus on the opening scene to highlight that, but I really would love to hear your thoughts on anything I just said.
SPEAKER_02Uh okay, let's talk about the opening scene because I I have something because I think you're asking a really interesting question, and I I think it could be very interestingly explored between there's something in this movie that to me is exactly like something in Batman Returns, and it and why do they why does one work and one doesn't? You might be thinking of the exact same thing. So, but why don't you go ahead?
SPEAKER_00So, yeah, so uh like I said, listeners, we're not gonna go through scene by scene, but I have a few chosen out, and I and I'm sure Walker does too. So the opening of the film, and in my notes here in the heading, I have repetition, repetition, and more repetition. Now, this movie doesn't seek to do the same thing as the previous films only. It actually does the opposite in a few other ways, but I want to highlight in this opening scene. So instead of the Batman getting ready to kick some ass montage that previously only showed Batman's ass in Batman Forever, we are now treated to an ass and cod piece shot. Why? Who is this for? And who two two butt shots, two butt shots down the on the butt shot. Right. So we're repeating, but we're making it bigger, right? Um, in Batman Forever, Alfred and Batman engage in a back and forth that was clearly a commercial for any fast food chain willing to sponsor the movie when Batman says, I'll get drive-thru. This time we have Alfred referencing pizza. We've never seen Batman eat, followed by a weird warning to bring the Batmobile back in one piece, even though it was the fucking Riddler who had previously destroyed the Batmobile. So it's like, okay, you're referencing a movie, but you're telling Batman not to be a naughty boy and crash it when it's like if you think for two seconds, it was never Batman's fault. So we just have quips that like command you not to think. They they that's the number one thing they ask is don't think about it. And then finally, Robin repeats his joke from the previous film about chicks digging the car. He doubles down on it again in the beginning of this movie. So, like, this is how low-ranking the thought put into these scenes are is don't break the car. Well, he didn't. And then, hey, remember this one joke that may or may not have worked? Well, we're gonna double down on that. You know, it's right so stupid. Anyways, um, any thoughts on the opening scene that I just talked about?
SPEAKER_02No, I agree with you. It boils down a bunch of stuff that was the stuff that didn't work about the first one into we're gonna do it again, and anything that any charisma that this first move that the I'm by the first one I mean the first Schumacher. Yeah. Any charisma, and I and I went pretty hard on Batman Forever, but it's like any charm that that movie had is completely gone in this.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And this is where, you know, uh I mentioned Paul Russ, where like the way he talks about good and bad movies is really inspiring to me. And and this is where I started to try and and and think about it from you know that perspective. So there's some stark differences in the introduction of the villains in this film. So the first three Batman films, talking Batman 1989, up through Batman Forever, do a very nice job, or at least make an attempt of showing how the villains are formed by a series of events Batman is either directly responsible for, and what I'm talking about there would be Joker, Two Face, and the Riddler. So Batman or Bruce Wayne are directly responsible for that individual becoming a villain in those three cases, or he's totally disconnected from, which would be Penguin and Catwoman, right? They their their evolution into villains and being a societal reject is not because of Batman. They're their own events. Um, so in all three films, the story then unfolds around Batman coming to terms with the villain and getting to know them, right? So, in in the case of Batman 1989, uh, the Joker, Batman drops him into a vat of chemicals, but we know that Joker previously, um, Jack Napier previously murdered the Wayne family, Batman's parents, Bruce Wayne's parents. And this eventually leads to a showdown with tons of momentum and buildup. Now, we can, of course, apply context and talk about that. Even in our episode, we talked about it's funny that the villains have this conflict that doesn't really occur until halfway through the movie. By the time you're on that church building, that church tower, you want Batman and Joker to kick each other's ass or to fight and address it. It's really well done. Opinion, of course. Penguin and Catwoman. Penguin and Catwoman. Batman, Bruce Wayne, slash Bruce Wayne has zero involvement in what made them into villains, and the story at least attempts to bring the characters into one another's lives and consciousness, such that there's a reason for them to be in conflict. I think it's even a little bit worse done in Batman Returns, but you to anchor that story, you have Catwoman and Batman having such amazing chemistry, Ancelina Kyle, and Bruce Wayne. So there's there's such great things working in favor of kind of a haphazard script. And then finally, Toothface and Riddler, Bruce Wayne slash Batman both have a history with Harvey Dent slash Toothface. And then Edward Nigma has a history with Bruce Wayne and eventually Batman. So even though that movie is much poorer than the first two, the way they have the villains intertwine with the main character is is like logical at the very least, right? In this, you have Batman and Robin. In Batman and Robin, you have uh Mr. Freeze introduced to, and you talked about this again, so I don't mean to retread too much, but you have him introduced by Commissioner Gordon as hey, here's your new villain, to the extent where they come in to stop him, and he goes, Hi, Freeze, I'm Batman, which I know people laugh at that line a lot. So, but here's why it bugs me so bad Batman, world's greatest detective. He in the first three movies, he we have these great little montages, and they're little, of him doing his homework, finding out so he doesn't have to actually who is this woman? Who's this guy?
SPEAKER_01Is this something I need to deal with?
SPEAKER_00Yes, and if if the villain and the hero have no personal history and no reason not to indiscriminately kill each other, why then do we make every attempt to only inconvenience one another? And what I'm speaking to is, you know, in a good way, Two-Face wants to torture or toy with Batman because he's personally angry with him for like what he perceives to be what Batman may have caused by not stopping him from getting burned by the acid. Catwoman wants to toy with Batman due to their sexual tension and great competition with one another and the gender inequality that she thinks is present on her side. And she's right. And I so Mr. Freeze is doing the same thing as what I described like with Two Face or maybe Joker to an extent in that he has so many opportunities to kill them in their very first conflict, but he shoots the dinosaur in ice instead of killing them. And I'm I get that this is a movie. You know, I was just talking about this uh with a friend the other day of like when I pick apart the Mandalorian, it's never from, which is a show I like, right? But it's never from that would never happen. Well, of course it would never happen. It's just annoying people try to do that. Um, but when there's certain beats that they miss of a show that I think has set a certain level of quality, it's okay to pick up on the logical fallacies or inconsistencies because people notice that subconsciously too, right? And I think this movie is full of that. Like, why wouldn't Mr. Freeze just shoot them since he has no personal history or connection to Batman? It makes no sense. And and I think those are the things that we pick up on. Of course, the visuals, of course, the costuming, of course the lines. But when the structure is that flawed from the beginning, yes, I think people pick up on that. And I I know I just went hard there in the paint, so I would like to hear your thoughts on that.
SPEAKER_02No, not at all. I I love what you're saying. I agree with you. I don't think that people I think that uh film, not just film, audiences, humans, have an intuitive understanding of kind of how story is supposed to go based off of spending their whole lives watching movies and TV and reading books and things. And people can be unconventional with it, people can blow those things apart. But yeah, you have to know why you're doing it and how you like it requires a deaf touch. And and it also is probably your Batman movie, is probably not the place for it. Like, yeah, and there and you can tell every story under the sun while still having things touch these beats in a satisfying way for the most part. And we know when it's not happening.
SPEAKER_00We know people pick up on it, and so uh again, uh where I was sort of like trying to underscore that is in the first scene. Um Where Batman and Robin and Mr. Freeze face off. There's no point in going beat by beat. Watch the movie if you want a good laugh. But I think this is actually, I just want to quickly say that some of the special effects where I think they everything looks dat in this movie, but I do like when Mr. Freeze shoots his gun, his ice gun. I think that that is one of the better looking special effects. But ultimately, what I really see in this scene visually is a huge amount of spending on stuff that looks so ridiculous, right? So you could spend all the money in the world. It doesn't make for a better looking film. And then the the next scene. So so I und the fundamental writing problems are in like the story perspective, right? But then just to hold it on some bad dialogue. After their first confrontation with Mr. Freeze, Batman and Robin are deconstructing the fight, and it's quickly determined that the Wayne family diamonds are needed to trap the snowman, is what Robin says.
SPEAKER_03We're gonna trap ourselves the snowman and Batman, Mark, I love this part so much.
SPEAKER_00Batman demands that Robin spends 10 hours in the simulator so he can fight better the next time. And I was just thinking, like, this is one of those beats that there's no other response besides laughing because it's like that's a weird starting point. Like, why not be like I don't know it because it's like Bruce, you force someone to do anything for 10 hours, you're not gonna get a good result. And you should know that. Like, say two hours, and if he spends 10 hours, then you know he's committed. But like it's just such an odd line read. And then I talked about that that Alfred always looks like he's having an orgasm when he is uh indicates that he's suffering from McGregor's. There's a lot of that going on. It's like it seems like he's just enjoying watching the boys argue so much. You cannot help but get weird sexual overtones out of this movie. So he does that, and then Alfred and Bruce are deconstructing the argument that we just saw between Robin and Bat. This movie is like, who wrote this movie? Because we see the argument, and then Alfred and Bruce are talking about it in the very next scene, and Alfred has the strangest line I've ever heard. He says, Master, Master Dick follows the same star as you. He just gets there by his own course. And I mean, the sexual tension is so nuts in that scene, but yeah, it's just so crazy to me.
SPEAKER_02There's a lot of weird star stuff in this movie, too, because there's also a part where Bruce Wayne says, My father once told me to succeed. We need to pick a star and follow it. And it's like, yeah, and have billions of dollars of generational wealth. No, Zach, it's interesting to me though, this difference between bad and good. Because did you catch? Did you catch? Because this movie's pretty subtle. I I thought it was really interesting because Poison Ivy's origin is like a one-to-one, like Catwoman's origin and Batman Returns. Now, we talked about in Batman Returns that all these four of these movies have a pretty essentialized view of women. They even though it isn't they are not 100% written by male screenwriters, there is a female screenwriter at least in Batman uh Forever. And I don't know if there were in either of the first two movies. I don't think so, were there?
SPEAKER_00No, no, not at all. Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_02Sam Hamble and you know, and and and and that that being an aspect of the movies that are a little bit dated is is the female characters are in very, very diminished roles, and sexuality is often used as a weapon and never you know, one facet of a whole person, right? So all that stands, I say all that to say, to even to even give Batman returns a little knock. In this movie, you have Selena Kyle played by Michelle Pfeiffer who experiences the following transformation. She is demure, put upon, and unempowered. She is murdered by her evil boss and is licked by a bunch of cats and comes out highly sexualized, empowered, and in control of the situation as catwoman, right? That is not necessarily a very deep or nuanced character evolution, but even with the criticisms that I think we fairly gave it, and that maybe somebody other than us would would give it more, right? Like we we still are two men watching this who grew up on it. It's not, yeah, it's it's we're even we're being critical of it, but maybe from a more generous view than somebody else would.
SPEAKER_00Can I just interject? I would say that, like, yeah, if I were to summarize it, and I'm not saying you didn't, but it's that the the uh the problematic element is that her rebirth, re-evolution of her sexual awakening is synonymous with her also going crazy, right? Where it's like, hey, women aren't crazy that are like sexually empowered and in charge, but I think Michelle Pfeiffer, and I know you're gonna take over this, but like Michelle Pfeiffer is so amazing in terms of her performance that she elevates it above that to where it does have a long-lasting impact, would be my summary of it.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yes, I agree with all that, and I think this is very well covered in our Batman episode. I'm even less highlighting the problematic elements of it, although I did want to point them out, to say that it also just doesn't make a great deal of sense. There is no reason that her transformation as a cat woman, it it doesn't make sense in the literal way that she's licked by a bunch of cats and then kind of like retains the I thought of this property.
SPEAKER_00Cats are the guardians of the underworld. I think that's the the what it's driving at. Which is so stupid because there's no magic mythology in Batman, it's supposed to be real. Big air quotes. But I I've since thought of that since we've done that episode. That I'm like, I wonder if the idea they're driving at is that cats are the guardians of the underworld, so they resurrect her, but in doing so, they've like passed their spirit on to her.
SPEAKER_02Yes. I never got that. That's very I said yes, like I knew that. I that's that's a very interesting point. I you you are helping highlight what the point I am trying to make, which is that logical fallacies aside, dated portrayals aside, this thing happens in Batman Returns, and it more or less works. You buy it for the time that you need to buy it to enjoy Batman Returns. In Batman and Robin, Poison Ivy is demure and unempowered. This all happens in one scene in this in this movie, by the way. This happens over the course of you know, maybe 20 or 30 minutes and Batman Returns. It's literally her introduction and transformation are in the same scene in Batman and Robin. But in effect, she starts out unempowered, not in a position of controlling her own destiny, is murdered by her evil boss, is touched by a bunch of looks like Max Shrek, is touched by a bunch of plants in much the same way that Catwoman is touched by a bunch of cats and emerges an evil and quote unquote empowered sex pot villainous. Why does this completely fail in Batman and Robin and more or less work or at least is effective in Batman Returns? I will pass it over to you. I would say I think a key difference here is that even though the view of the female character in Batman Returns is somewhat essentialized, in this, she is crazy and then sexy. She like, I think that this movie does hold Poison Ivy in total contempt because you see her dirty, messy hair wandering around talking about how like plants are the real people, and then she's murdered, and her only thing is that she's now sexual. But why do you think it also doesn't work in this? Well, I think it just speaks to because you empathized with Selena Kyle before her transformation, but I don't think you have any empathy for you don't have a the chance to because yeah, she looks like a Soviet-era scientist in like her garb.
SPEAKER_00And not that we don't empathize with Soviets, I just mean that you have no way in. It's the most poorly lit scene of the entire movie in a movie that is always badly lit. Um, but yeah, you just see that she has like, you know, she's in the same way you mentioned that it's they're trying to one-for-one model it and they do such a poor job. But in the same way that, you know, Michelle Pfeiffer, even when she's not hot yet, it's she's still one of the most gorgeous people I've ever seen, even though she's in a very drab dress and her hair isn't like sexy yet or whatever. But you know, you get to know her, right?
SPEAKER_02You care about what's happening to her, and you also see that she is being put upon by things that she is being treated unfairly. And this you don't ever go, oh wow, poison ivy's being treated really unfairly. I'm invested in her taking her revenge.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I would also just like to say, too, just to I know this isn't Batman Returns episode, but we you know, we talked about that it is funny that like as an executive assistant or whatever her title is in Batman Returns, she's improbably hot. And I I argued that I'm like, yes, she is, but I think she's such a talented actor that I actually start to buy her as insecure and and mouse that as is to the performance. And I I can say in my own life, I can't speak for the listeners or whatever, but there are people that maybe uh behave insecurely or will tell you as such that are beautiful by conventional standards. And sometimes that's hard to do in movies. I'll give you an example that stupid remake of Carrie, where they had that that beautiful young actress Chloe Grace Morris. Chloe Grace Moretz. Yeah, and I'm like, it yes, it's because she's so traditionally beautiful that I can't buy this, but she's also a terrible actress that I can't buy her as Carrie, you know? Like, so I just think it speaks to Tim Burton and Michelle Pfeiffer's execution of portraying somebody that isn't secure, despite the fact that they're beautiful. In this, you does that make point make sense? Yes, yes, yeah. So, like in this, it's everything you said that she doesn't get a chance to show any depth or dimension, and that's the filmmaker's fault. Uma thurman is a terrif, terrific actor. But I also think what the main problem is, is after the Max Shrek lookalike kills her for, I guess, rebuffing a partnership or a sexual advance, it's unclear really what why he immediately turns on her. He has to telegraph to the audience what is that? Let the poisons and toxins create her, let them burn a grave for you.
SPEAKER_03You don't have Max Shrek going, uh, let the concrete soak into your blood and kill you.
SPEAKER_01He's satisfied that she is dead by cats and it's turning you into some sort of cat woman. You seem to have the powers of a cat. Yes. Look at them all licking you and turning you into now.
SPEAKER_00You're having to seize her a little bit. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's it's so ridiculous in this part in particular, because you could just tell they assembled a cast before they had a script written. Because uh that that that character who also creates Bane on the side for the Ununited Nations, I don't think we'll have time for that, but uh he narrates her death. She um arises and and in an attempt to explain why her skin is better and why she looks more beautiful after being buried alive in concrete and plants. She says that like her blood is aloe, blah, blah, blah. She narrates every single thought and movement that a character possibly could. She says, I was mistreated, now I'm Mother Nature, blah, blah, blah. It's so insane how much characters have to telegraph what is happening to them. And all that leads her to want to pursue Bruce Wayne/slash Batman, even though it's never clear if she understands of the same person, is she finds a beaker of chemicals in her lab and says, I guess we're going to Gotham. It's I think that's what makes this character. And Uma Thurman is trying to channel Michelle Pfeiffer's performance, who does play it big with a little bit of that old Hollywood kind of talk, you know? But you buy it with Michelle Pfeiffer, at least I do. With Uma, she's doing that, she's trying her ass off, she's making a lot of choices. I don't know that she's working super hard, but I think that is why they stand in such stark contrast to one another.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I agree. I just I'm glad we talked about that scene because to me it was such a pale ripoff of a scene that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me in Batman Returns, but is really effective in its like vibe and just kind of resonance when you're watching that movie. There's no diamonds. I mean, we talked about my favorite scene in the movie Batman Returns is her coming home and trashing her apartment.
SPEAKER_00And making the suit, and there's zero narrative dialogue, and you get it. And I mean it's like Tim Burton is certainly not somebody that would say is an expert in show don't tell, but he might be actually, and I think that's why his movies aren't great because there's not enough telling. But all that to say, in such stark contrast, there's no dialogue, and it's Walker's favorite scene in the movie. It's one of my favorite as well. So yeah, I could go on and on.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so the thing that we cannot leave this episode without talking about is this is the second of this franchise that you and I saw in the theater, or did we?
SPEAKER_00Well, we saw a section of it, didn't we?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we saw more of it than I'll tell you what, we saw more of it than I thought we did, based on the timestamp where a certain scene came up. We saw about 40 minutes of this movie in the theater, which made this memory sadder to me that we made it that far in, kind of.
SPEAKER_00Oh, see, that's where I marked it in my mind was about 40 minutes in, just under an hour.
SPEAKER_02Oh, see, in my memory, it's kind of like the first thing that I remember. But I'm obviously beating around the bush to tell a story that Zach is well aware of, but we were dropped off at the movie theater to see this movie.
SPEAKER_00Now, this is so far, adorable memory that we got dropped off to do a big boy trip.
SPEAKER_02Yes, exactly. Now you're 10. I or I'm sorry, I'm 10, you're seven. Us being dropped off at a movie theater to go see something by ourselves, not something I remember happening before, and not something I have a lot of memories of happening afterwards, and maybe this is why. Yeah, maybe. But I mean, this is a PG 13 movie, is it not? Uh-huh. Yeah. Oh yeah. So Zach and I went to see this movie. Now, I said I remember there is a scene in this movie where there is a one of these like celebrity events that normally auction, I think. Yeah, it's very comfortable auctioning off women. It's so crazy. Yeah, it's a it's a it's the it's a um charity event where dates with these different women are often auctioned off to wealthy participants. Billionaires. Yeah, wealthy white billionaires. It's great. Uh it's great. And and how far we've come. Um and what's weird about this scene, also, I will just say, is that normally this would be where you get to see Bruce Wayne kind of do his Bruce Wayne thing. But in this case, Batman and Robin show up to the event, which I was like, what kind of watchman-ass shit is this? I know, is these superheroes doing a PR event. But in any case, at this auction, a figure appears in a giant gorilla costume and Poison Ivy's theme. Disconcerting, which is like kind of, you know, sexy horn music, starts to do a sort of a strip tease out of this gorilla costume. First, a gorilla hand is taken off. You see the very sexy green fingernailed hand.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Joel Schumer Schumacher's like, this is what men like, right? It's like, no, dude, this is not.
SPEAKER_02Slowly, this gorilla costume is revealed to show that it is in fact Poison Ivy, and Poison Ivy has sent her like love dust into the crowd, which makes the men all infatuated with her. This is all real from the movie, if you haven't seen it, by the way. It sounds like I'm making this shit up. It sounds like you're on acid. Right. But I again, it's never explained what the properties of this chemical compound are, but it's you know, narratively, it functions as a love potion. Now, Zach and I, when this scene started as a tenant and seven-year-old boy, I uh walked us out of the theater and we left, and I went up to the person working at the movie theater and had them call our mom to come pick us up because I knew that this was a naughty scene. Now, this breaks my heart on a few different levels. One is just the level of obedience that was instilled within me that if I because this scene is so effing tame. I mean, she like it was literally Zach. I as much as I can get in the mind of me at that age, I know that what made me make us leave was the signifiers of something sexy happening. Nothing. I think it was when she drops the ape c ape costume. I remember, well, what's so funny is the sh that's probably where we left, but my like red alert went up with the glove coming up. Oh, because and it was because of the music, you know, like it's like because we learn that film vocabulary as as kids, right? Like, Ollie, I'll watch a movie with him, and he doesn't need to see something scary. He knows if something he doesn't want to see because it's scary is happening because of the music and the way it's shot. Right. And I knew something sexy was happening because of the music and the way it was shot. And from the second that glove came off, I was like, we're in trouble.
SPEAKER_00Sure. Can I tell you uh externally from you, but internal to the story?
SPEAKER_02Yes, how did you experience and do this and do you remember it? Because that well, I do remember it in a very in a very palpable way.
SPEAKER_00Well, the reason why I say that we were you were like telling me we gotta go, uh like Ian Malcolm, we gotta go, we gotta go right now, right now, um, was after she drops the ape costume because it does, you know, start from like below her, even though it's it's you know, um, it's like below her, but like she's on top of a ledge, so you're meant to be like a face in the crowd, and then it uh pans up. And it it this is the one of the only ass shots we get of uh Uma Thurman. Um and I remember seeing that because in my mind the way I remember it is that it's the camera is much closer on her, right? So it's funny. So again, memory could be is not foolproof or whatever, but I know that we made it that far into the sea because I always remember that shot incorrectly, is what I mean to say. That's why it's so burdened into my mind.
SPEAKER_02Well, it sounds like slight fire than it is. I'm not even teasing you. It sounds like you were keyed in on her butt then as a little kid. But you remember that as the whole shot.
SPEAKER_00Well, yes, but I was only seven, seven years old. And so, you know, for me personally, I don't remember being titillated by that, uh, even though like I'm describing it that way, but I remember it being like more, as you just said, it's it's very tame. I remember it being even more in your face or whatever at the time. But I do remember that being like the last moment I saw, which is probably also why it's in there. And I just remember you telling me we gotta go and and everything you just described. I don't need to retread. I do remember, and you should correct me on this if I'm wrong, not kind of grasping what the big deal was and wanting to see.
SPEAKER_02I remember that too. Okay, I think I had to, I think. Let me pass it back over to no, that's funny because I had forgotten that aspect. I think I kind of like dragged you out of the theater. Yeah, I was like, this is that, man. I was freaking out. Yeah. And I mean, it honestly, like, look, it, you know, I think like we we've made little like jokes here and there about just like having a very devout upbringing and things like that. And whatever your religious ideals are, or however strict or kind of loose you are, I I certainly in my own parenting, from a very non-religious point of view, you know, I try to like practice common sense about discretion and common sense about like exposing my young kid to things that are overtly sexual or violent, whatever. So, so I get all that. What makes me kind of sad about it is as bad as this movie is, I know we would have enjoyed it at the time. And I feel like it's like because of the conditioning that I had about anything remotely sexual in any way being bad, and I'm bad if I see it, and I'm in trouble if I watch it. It's like like I went underwent the fucking uh Ludvigo treatment. Is that what it's called? And clockwork orange. Like it's like I heard sexy music and saw a woman's hand and acted in revulsion as if I'd had my eyelids pried open, shown shown these images. People get the reference I'm making. It was like, wow, I could I I had no will of my own to to to like you know self-regulate, hey, is this okay? And can I see this? And I it was like I just because in my memory, I'm I know you're right. It wasn't I saw the unsheathed sexy hand and pulled us out, but in my memory, it was the alarm bells. From that second, I was like going, we need to get out of here.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And you probably passed it on to me eight seconds later when it does that shot up. And Walker, you had just strongly invoked Clockwork Orange. Listeners, I sent photographic evidence of the fact that Alex in his Droogs, and I'm talking about just the iconic costuming in a clockwork orange, are shown as extras in this film during the bike racing. There's probably that was probably a weird interjection, but there's never been a better time, which I just find to be so funny that Schumacher's like, hey, remember that really good movie that came out made by somebody else? Well, here are the characters from it.
SPEAKER_02They say never reference a better movie in your shitty movie. Uh, you know, the Droogs are also shown in Space Jam 2, A New Legacy, because that movie uh I pray that you never do. It's literally one of the worst, it's worse than Batman and Robin. Um but but uh in that movie, it's it was made shortly after all the Warner Brothers IP was purchased by the same what well, maybe not anyway. When they like merged with HBO and stuff, yes, and so they take and and a bunch of other things because there are multiple scenes where they go, we're literally just gonna show every intellectual property that we own to the point that in one scene Pennywise from it and the Droogs from Clockwork Orange are just hanging for no reason whatsoever, hanging out in the background of this kid's movie. It's like it's like, hey, you know why you come to a Looney Tunes movie, eight-year-olds, to see this fucking pack of violent rapists depict in a Kubrick and dystopia in a movie that was banned and rated, you know, unfairly in my opinion, but banned and rated X at the time because of how severe its content is. Yeah, let's throw that into this Bugs Bunny card. That is so strange. But yeah, I mean, I don't know. Do you have any other aspects of this memory? Because I did was I crying when mom picked us up that.
SPEAKER_00Well, I I definitely was not gonna, I was gonna let you release that yet. But yeah, I no, I I I think we should put it all out there. I I remember you crying, yeah. And and again, this is not to like make it sound like I've I've always been such a you know, hey, no big deal. I'm I'm very uptight and remain uptight about a lot of things.
SPEAKER_02But in the world, but I think you were you I was a more yeah externally emotional kid for sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And I just would say I remember that.
SPEAKER_02And uh I don't remember being that so were we just because I also here's the other thing I remember is is the darkness of the theater and then waiting on the quarter and like the beating sun forget us.
SPEAKER_00I completely wow. So I mean, yeah, this just goes to show you listeners, you should compare notes because sometimes memories are wildly off from each other and sometimes they're directly in line. And uh this is not something we talked about leading up to off pod. Uh, it's come up in in the past, but like not a lot. And so, yeah, that is exactly my memory. I just want to say, I just talked about uh I'm not gonna objectify anyone if you hear that my tone. Uh Uma Thurman, absolutely gorgeous woman, then and now. I find it so funny that uh in my memory, because that was the inciting moment where you said, hey, we gotta go, that this is the only shot of a woman's ass besides Batgirl getting ready. And I think it just goes to show that Joel Schumacher's perception of what men are interested in is didn't have a lot of additional input because, like I said, Uba Thurban is beautiful. She's not voluptuous, Ruben-esque type figure. And in fact, like one might usually like Quentin Tarantino tends to focus on her hindquarters. Instead, he's like focusing on her hair and her shoulders through all the moments she's supposed to be super around her. Her hands and her hands. And I'm just kind of like, dude, I don't need you to objectify this person, but you can tell he's trying to and failing.
SPEAKER_02Well, hey, I he but he for all that, he did not fail to signify horniness to 10-year-old me because I started crying and got us out there. And all of this goes to say, you know, like we sometimes get personal on this show, but like, you know, um, I just thank God that I feel like I have a healthy relationship to my sexuality now as an adult, because I certainly did not as a child, but it does make sense out of why I've never been able to go to a strip club without bursting into tears. So it's nice to finally kind of like have this memory sort of unsheath itself and and you know, why I've been scared of titties all my life.
SPEAKER_00Well, I just would like to say too, though, just to be serious and go back a step, like you mentioned that you use discretion in the movies that you show to your nine-year-old son. And and for whatever it's worth, I I've uh totally noticed that and I think it's a really it's really impressive, right? I mean, because because movies can be so, you know, you mentioned that uh your son has like he picks up on the signifiers of something's gonna be scary. I would just like to encourage people to use discretion when allowing, you know, what movies you let your children see, but also to kind of leave it up to them, I think gives children more of an ability to be honest about what scares them and what they're uncomfortable with. I will say, having had uh, and and mom and dad, if you're listening, this is not an attack on you at all. Um, but having had like what I watch be very tightly scrutinized, I wanted to watch anything of any genre, of any type, of any rating if it was allowed. And when I was very scared by stuff, or when I was really freaked out or whatever, uncomfortable, I wouldn't say because getting to see a movie was such a treat. So, you know, that's just really interesting to me. And I would just say I've seen with with your son him being like, I'm scared, I don't want to watch this. He's not embarrassed to admit it, right? Because like what he sees is not entirely up to him. He's not gonna, you know, I don't know. And so I uh yeah, that would be my observation, and what I would encourage folks to do when kind of is like put a little bit of the decision making back and you might get a more honest response, is all. That's all I would say.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yeah, or um, yeah, I watch stuff with my kid and there will be like again, while while I will not put on something that I, you know, that's too that I think is gonna be too adult. He's not gonna watch Clockwork Orange tonight. He's not gonna watch Clockwork Orange, but we'll watch like a Billy Madison or something like that. Like, you know, these movies that have like sometimes very like have jokes that I have come to not appreciate or whatever at the expense of somebody else, or or you know, the female characters only exist as villains or objects of desire or whatever. And sometimes there has been stuff we've watched where I'll pause and go, I think this is kind of bad, and here's why.
SPEAKER_00Get ready for a few opportunities to do that.
SPEAKER_02Big I'm probably gonna hold off on because it's like because a boy has sex with a woman. So yeah. But um, but like, yeah, there has been stuff where I'm just like, okay, I I actually it's incumbent upon me to say something here because the because the messaging here is so harmful. There's more times than that, all I have to do is kind of look over and see that he's uncomfortable and just go, are you feeling kind of weird? Yeah. And and he'll go, yeah, and I'll and I'll say why, and that will facilitate a great conversation. So while I'm not intentionally showing him things that make him feel weird, I do think that there's a lot of empowerment as a parent in just letting weird stuff exist or letting art be seen that does sometimes hold up or not or invoke weird feelings or not, and being willing to like field those conversations. Because this movie is way less sexual than Batman Forever, which we also saw in the theater, and I and I didn't feel scared and like I needed to get up out of the theater because we were with our dad. Because Drew Barrymore made your favorite. Drew Barrymore did make my favorite, and and but you know what I'm saying? Like it's like there's something about I totally do the crime. I it was like the thought crime I had committed was that I was seeing something horny outside of adult supervision. And that's why I was that's why I was scared and made us leave, and why I was crying when our mom came and picked us up. Because it was like I I'm out here on my own sinning, basically.
SPEAKER_00And your younger brother, notorious snitch. So you thought if we don't leave, Zach's gonna go home and snitch that we saw butt cheeks.
SPEAKER_02I love that I love that you were just like perplexed as to why I was making us leave. And I I mean, I hey Batman so much.
SPEAKER_00I didn't want to miss it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know what? And I I never realized that all this was coming around to me making an apology to you for ruining this movie for us. Well bitch.
SPEAKER_00No, no, you hey, of all the movies to have ruined, this one is not rootable. I mean, honestly, I and please, again, I'm looking to you because you're a little older, might have stronger memory. I don't remember how I felt. I remember internally being a little bummed out. I don't think we got into a fight about that, like it led to. I remember what and I know we want to move a little quicker here, but I do remember that Bane, his transformation and subsequent appearance of the film scared me. And I will say, this is maybe the one little point I'll give for this movie. I think this movie, while the CGI is very dated and not well used, I think Bane's transformation is an interesting scene in terms of animation. I mentioned Roger Rabbit, the police cars, and that scene reminded. It is, and it's and there's something about a 90s aesthetic, not just Tim Burton, but 90s in general, where I think that the tangible realism and also how fake it looks blends to something that elicits a stronger response. We could talk about that in another episode, another time, off pod or not. But I just wanted to quickly say I remember being a little alarmed too, but wanting to stick with the movie because it was a new Batman movie. That's all. So I think maybe, yeah, it's not.
SPEAKER_02No, no, I I I think that you were it was hard to get you to leave, but you ultimately acquiesced to my authority as the older brother. Oh, yeah. But um, yeah, anyway, I hope the listeners enjoy that super personal story. But I I felt like this Batman Ideobat started with us going, Zach watched 1989 Batman every day for a year. It feels appropriate that it ends with us going, Walker dragged him and his brother out of the theater because like one and a half inches of butt cheek were on the screen. Grab dragged him out of the theater crying. I was crying because I saw a butt. You were crying inside because you weren't getting to see Batman.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And listeners, for more in-depth personal stories related to our sexuality, what how Batman may have influenced our partners, that's behind the Patreon. So we'll get to that. Um, but uh yeah, anything else you want to talk about?
SPEAKER_02I think we should get out of here on a let's get out of here on a light positive. Oh one thing I will say about this movie, Arnold Schwarzenegger, whether intentionally through his performance or not, did make me laugh out loud a few times in this movie. Do you want to just like real quick, like lightning round, hit me with some of your favorite Mr. Freeze lines or moments in this movie? Because, you know, Arnold puns are a big part of Arnold Schwarzenegger's movie career and they fold that into this movie. So Mr. Freeze speaks almost exclusively in ice or cold related puns. Um, but what, if any, are some of your favorite Mr. Freeze one-liners or Arnold deliveries or anything at all? Because he made me laugh out loud multiple times.
SPEAKER_00Uh well, before before I tell you my puns, I just want to tell you my favorite Arnold Mr. Freeze moment of the film. And I was I was pleased with this observation because there's a scene after they have their big fight, it's your first villain on the side in their lair scene, like you would get with Two Face, you know, in the previous film or something like that. And what he's what's happening in this $150 million movie is he's telling his goons, sing, sing, and they're not singing, they're just making duh the kind of caveman noises. And I was like, why in this hundred million dollar movie where we've seen all the money on display in the costumes and the albeit poor execution, but we saw a lot of CGI in their first battle, why will these goons not sing? And it's because they're extras. And if you have an extra that has no speaking lines, then they're not in SAG. And so somebody in this $150 million movie on the side, I'm I'm speculating, was like, don't give them any speaking lines, don't allow them to sing, even though the main character is telling them to sing because we'll have to pay residuals if they do. So that is the kind of money they're looking to save on this movie is we'll spend it for them to go air surfing, but not for these characters to get any speaking lines because we want to save on the residuals. And that leads into the Vivica Fox, which is my other favorite funny moment. But I I didn't mean to hog it so much, but that is the Arnold observation that isn't a pun of, I don't know, how about you?
SPEAKER_02Well, he I don't really have a favorite pun. They're all terrible. I mean, like they're they're literally like like he's always going like, This has left me cold, or like, like, I mean, what else? Like I have I have one specific.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but in their battle and he goes, What killed the dinosaurs? The ice age. It's so funny. Which is not true. Uh no, a meteor killed the dinosaurs, which then caused an entire dust cloud over the earth, which then eventually, because it was blocked for the sun, killed them. But uh, the ice age was 80% responsible for the dust clouds.
SPEAKER_02So thank you. Because I was just like, he says multiple things that I'm ice age.
SPEAKER_03And also when he goes, in this world there's only one absolute, everything freezes. And I'm like, what are you talking about? That's not true.
SPEAKER_02I don't know if any of the stuff he said is true, and he's a scientist and decathlete. Yeah, but yeah, he's always talking in puns to the point that uh I'm and I literally can't think of a second one other than you have left me cold is one, but they're all variations on that.
SPEAKER_00Freeze is over.
SPEAKER_02Yes, freeze in hell, Batman. Freeze in hell to the point that he delivers things that are not puns in the tone as if they're puns. There's one port where he goes, Nice of you to drop in. And it's like that isn't a pun, but he said it like it's a pun. Also, there's a part where he says, Very nice, and I wish he went very nice. Because that was a missed opportunity.
SPEAKER_00A pun that he gives that's not a pun at all, but he delivers as if it has that punch is when he goes. By the way, Mr. Freeze goes to jail midpoint in this movie. It's very odd storytelling. But when he goes to jail, one of the bodyguards at Arkham is Jesse the Body Ventura, who he acted with in Predator. Um, but there's these two foolhardy goons who are at a minimum seven foot tall because Arnold is six foot four or was, right? And they're much taller and bigger than him. And he goes, they're like, I can't roll the line exactly, but he's like, uh, I will enjoy my stay here after I escape, which you won't get to see.
SPEAKER_03It's like the weirdest like uh uh uh compound making. Unfortunately, you will not live to see it.
SPEAKER_00It's so strange, and which they do, by the way. Uh well no, they get killed by Poison Ivy, but yeah, there's that. And um I I think those are the only other oh oh my favorite Arnold, this is the last one I have. In the scene where um he breaks up Poison Ivy's undressing party, which is where we left, he interrupts that party. They briefly decide to partner up for no reason, but there's a drink tray that is like the main prop of the movie for this scene where Batman's throwing it at goons, all this and that. Um, but while that drink tray scene is happening, uh Mr. Freeze is talking to Poison Ivy and he goes, and this is just because of Arnold's accent, and he goes, Well, that's my cue to exit, which is how you'd say it in like theater studio parlance or you know, you could say that's my cue to exit. But coming from Arnold, it sounds so weird. I'm like, why did they design that line to make it sound like somebody who why not say, like, there's my exit cue or whatever? I don't know. The way he delivers it is so bad. And that was my favorite moment. Maybe you it's it had to be their moment, but that was it.
SPEAKER_02But my favorite Arnold moment is similarly not a pun. Uh it's it because here's the thing I'll say about Arnold like plenty of hey has been made about the fact that he's a terrible actor just in our culture. Sure. Um, you know, obviously has been used to great effect in the right role, but he it in the conventional sense, and I would say in kind of the real sense, he is uh very bad at acting. But he super commits. Yes, and so what I find is somebody who is so bad at emoting in the way that you need an actor to, but is so committed, he always kind of looks crazy. Like he he makes really crazy faces and has really crazy eyes. And so there's a part where I think it's pretty early on in the movie, all his goons are on ice skates and doing hockey at Batman and Robin. Oh, my note about that, by the way, was I haven't seen this much hockey in a movie since Clerks. But uh anyway, while they're all doing ice hockey, at one point it just cuts to Arnold. He's got his arms outstretched, he has the craziest look on his face ever, and he goes, Yes!
SPEAKER_03Kill them, kill them, yeah, and then he says, destroy everything. And it's like, fucking why? Why would they destroy everything? Including the diamond you need.
SPEAKER_02He's so crazed in that moment, and I loved it so much. Um, also, I will say, in terms of like him being crazed, there's a monologue he delivers about like blaketing the world in ice. And I gotta tell you, anything with genocidal overtones coming out of that face with that accent, I was like, this is unsettling.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, I totally agree. I had that thought as well. That I think Arnold, um, and this this might be the note I would like to personally go out on. I'd love you to close this out, but Arnold is a registered Republican. He a couple years back gave this, I I would venture to say moving. Yes, he might not emote as a great actor in by traditional sense. I would just like to quickly interject. I think when used properly, it can be terrific. And I'm thinking of the Terminator, but also Predator and stuff like that. But you want to say he's a bad actor. I don't know. Watch this video, listeners. He's encouraging his fellow Republicans to not engage in like, you know, doing so many of the things that I would say the like far right leaning conservatives do. And he says in this video with a great deal of shame that he basically implicates that his father was either cooperative with the Nazi Party because he's he was from Austria, which, as listeners will know, you know, Nazi Germany took over Austria, but they were welcomed with open arms. And so he indicates that his father had a great deal of military shame. And he's saying, like, I've managed to put that behind me and I've had to overcome it directly. Do not like he's basically encouraging like the parts of the party that are engaged in Nazism not to do that. It's an amazing video. I wish more people would speak out like this. That said, I didn't even know that his linkage was that close. So when I was watching that too, of a person with a deeply, we'll just say a German-sounding accent talking about genocide, he was so, so disconcerned.
SPEAKER_03Yes. We will have a thousand-year Reich of ice and coldness. All of the all of the humid fire people will be buried in our sheets of snow. Yeah, it was it was insane.
SPEAKER_02Well, that's a weird note to end on.
SPEAKER_00Well, hey, I think that like we've self-sabotaged this episode and this movie as much as we could. We need we we love to mirror the arc of Radiohead, who did not have an album in 1997, so we don't need to talk about them at all. Just kidding, listeners. But no, this movie is so baffling, and I tried to be a little bit analytical. I know you did too, but ultimately it's just a big failure and a misfire. So I think our the way we wrap up, it could be equally baffling as well.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I fucking hated it, and I hate Joel, and and like I um have yet to see a good Joel Schumacher movie, and I'm kind of at this point pretty convinced that he is a hack. Uh well was he's dead. Well, good riddance is what I say. And on that note.
SPEAKER_00Any any final words? No, not at all. I mean, uh, this is the last episode of the podcast, right, Walker?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, we both have stage one McGregor's disease, so or syndrome, depending on it's a disease or a syndrome if you're nasty. Um, we'll be back next week, and we will be back to Ideo Talk next week. This was this was the fourth and final. Well, I won't say final. This was the fourth and final for now episode of Biddy Ideobat. And who knows? We might need to discuss Batman again in the future, in which case we'll bust our bat capes back out. Um hopefully I will be able to do it without fucking crying. You know, hopefully I don't see, I don't see a butt cheek or or a little bit of cleavage, you know, because as we know, that will completely undo me. I really enjoyed talking this about this with you, Zach, a lot more than I enjoyed watching it. I had a great time. Listeners, we hope you'll be back next week. I have been Walker Glenn. I've been Zach Glenn. See you next week. Bye. Ideotalk is a Glenn Brothers production. Get in touch with us at ideotalk.podcast at gmail.com or follow us on Instagram at idiotalk.podcast. And thanks for listening to the
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