Idiotalk Presents: My Chemical Bromance
Season 3 out now, a deep dive into My Chemical Romance.
Catch up on previous seasons covering Radiohead and Fiona Apple, available in feed.
Idiotalk is a deeply analytical, yet lighthearted and fun discussion hosted by brothers Walker and Zach Glenn about their shared favorite musical artists and more. Full of meticulous research, wild speculation, scorching hot takes, and a lifetime of inside jokes waiting to be shared with you.
Idiotalk Presents: My Chemical Bromance
When the Pawn...
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Walker and Zach set down some coasters and break into Fiona Apple's sophomore album When the Pawn... and speculate on how many of the songs are about a magician. Shut up and pass me that Wild Turkey™.
A very big thank you indeed to "Sam on Reddit" for their contribution to the research materials, interviews and much much more.
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So right before we started recording, Zach asked me if I wouldn't mind using a coaster for my drink.
SPEAKER_05Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03And Well, I that's generous of you.
SPEAKER_07I said, put put get a fucking coaster walker. That's how we speak to each other often.
SPEAKER_03No, we really like we're at Zach's house, and and I noticed that whenever we're at when we record at my house, Zach goes very beta.
SPEAKER_07And I'm not sure I understand what that means. Beta? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Isn't beta an alpha?
SPEAKER_07Oh, okay. What is a I know kind of what an alpha is supposed to mean.
SPEAKER_03I'm sorry, I generally Uh Beta is a is a submissive member of the family. And Zach goes, I can't believe you, honestly. This is where Zach is very fortunate to not be as online as I am. I cannot believe you are living in the same year I am, and you are and I mean this as a compliment and a blessing for you that you are unfamiliar with things being assessed in terms of being alpha or beta.
SPEAKER_07This is like a huge thing in our culture with like, you know, kind of man fluencers and well, no, no, but I know alpha though, and I and I and I don't really have positive associations necessarily with that. I just didn't know the inverse of that early necessarily.
SPEAKER_03Well, I was gonna say though, so yes, when we record at my house, Zach goes very beta. He comes in, he lowers his head as he walks through my door.
SPEAKER_07Uh my tail goes in between my legs.
SPEAKER_03Yes, meaning my massive penis. Yes, see, that was an alpha thing to say, and this is what I'm getting to is when we get to Zach's house to record, which is where we are now, beta Zach is gone. I am now a beta cuck, and Zach immediately starts just dominating the shit out of me. I I set a drink to I forgot myself for a moment and carelessly set a drink on his table, and he looked at me and he said, forgetting something? And I didn't know what he meant, but I could tell right away, I was like, oh shit, I'm in trouble. Right? And I went, um, did I forget to offer you a drink? And he said, No, I have a drink in my hand. What is my drink?
SPEAKER_01What you brought, the croin.
SPEAKER_03You brought that I took from you because you're in my house and you will give me some of your you will make an offering when you come into my house, right? Like Cain did or Abel. Like Cain or Abel. Which one is the and which one is the alpha there? Well, Cain killed Abel, so So you're like full on Cain right now. Zach's raising Cain up in this piece. And I said, Okay, no, sir, I don't know what I forgot. And he said, What's my drink sitting on? Do I look like I want rings on this table? What is my drink sitting on? I said, A coaster, sir. And he said, That's right. So why don't you get a fucking coaster and put your fucking drink on it? Really earning this explicit tag right away in this episode.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. I'm dying at this fictitious description of the Fictitious.
SPEAKER_03Now that the mics are on, he doesn't he doesn't want people to know the the the atmosphere that takes place immediately before these mics come on. Zach, all this to say, you ask it that was fictitious. You nicely said, Oh, do you mind if we use coasters for our drinks? I said, Of course not. We treat each other as equals in my house or Zach's house. It's a a mutual respect. But what it did remind me of, Zach, is do you remember a and I don't know, I say this like this is like a common cultural touchstone for people. It was a terrestrial radio ad for wild turkey bourbon.
SPEAKER_07Does that just mean talk radio, more or less?
SPEAKER_03Terrestrial radio is yeah, radio uh that is played over the airwaves. Yeah. As opposed to what we're doing now, which is streaming, extra-terrestrial radio. Well, even streaming, yeah. Not streaming.
SPEAKER_07Like because even Sirius, you'd be streaming it technically, right?
SPEAKER_03Streaming is yes, Sirius is not terrestrial radio. Uh never have I been called on to sometimes you just say things and and never think of a time when you will have to define those things. And my God, is it does the panic run through me when I have to but isn't it exciting though when that happens?
SPEAKER_07Uh, because you have a uh very, very, very bright, inquisitive 10-year-old son. And so I'm sure this happens to you probably more than more so than I. I love the feeling when you can break a word down like a compound word based on its etymology. Right. Uh anyway, so sorry, please continue with your story though.
SPEAKER_03Every time I break down a word for him, I turn it into an acronym, right? So ICE wants to get hot. That's why it flows to the top of the tree. Yeah, so it'll be like Daddy, what's the Senate? And I'll be like, all right, well, first of all, S stands for suckers. E, entering. N, no man's land.
unknownA.
SPEAKER_03All of our problems will be solved. Right.
unknownT.
SPEAKER_03Talk to me about solutions. And E. Everyone is equal. Really stretching the definition of an acronym there because all of our problems are whatever you asking me to use a coaster reminded me of an ad I heard, I want to say on 98 rock. But who knew 98.5. 98.5, a Sacramento station that was like kind of a mix of modern and classic rock. I would say. Oh, yeah. You'd get your your Deftones and then your Led Zeppelin. Yes, exactly. But it like defined by harder rock. Yes, I would agree. Uh-huh. From all eras. Um, so I remember this ad for Wild Turkey Bourbon. Uh-huh. Which I mainly know as being the bourbon that is much higher alcohol percentage than average. It's like most liquor is 40%. I think wild turkey is like 65% or some shit. Oh, cool. It'll continue to never try it.
SPEAKER_07You've never tried wild turkey? No, I'm not a uh uh hard liquor person. I haven't uh drank hard liquor in years. Oh I do drink listeners, I'll have beers and stuff, and it's not a written rule. Like if Kailani uh You don't ever have a cocktail? No. I mean I'm not gonna say ever. It's not a rule, so but I can't remember the last time. Uh certainly since the pandemic. When the pandemic started, uh I kind of made a uh agreement just with Zach to not uh drink hard liquor.
SPEAKER_03Okay, I think I'm actually thinking too of Bacardi 151, which you come on, you went to college, you had to have drank Bacardi 151.
SPEAKER_07I'm sure that I have. I can't remember a time where I ever ordered it, but I'm not gonna say I've never done it.
SPEAKER_03But wild turkey is a little Bacardi 151, I feel like, is for people in their early 20s who ever clear or something like that. Yeah, are just like trying to get fucked up. Wild turkey is a little more expensive. Okay. But and I think it's maybe like 50% alcohol. In any case, Zach, this commercial. Please. It's poker night. All right? And and we all gotta have poker night. We gotta have poker night and those talk and tush. Okay, because you get talking tush because what is the thing you don't want at poker night? Wives. Wives and girlfriends. Or boyfriends. Sure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You're being much more progressive than I think this. I don't think this ad considered that anybody would not be in a heterosexual relationship. I think you're right. Have you heard this ad? No, please go. Okay, so the ad is it's poker night, there's glasses clinking, you know, a lot of chatter or whatever.
SPEAKER_07And then um I say, this sounds like a very gay affair so far. It sounds extreme.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, poker night, by the way. Great cover-up for when you just want to have gay sex with your boys.
SPEAKER_03Because it's like the fishing trips in Broke Back Mountain. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07It's like, let's do something manly and be really romantic with each other.
SPEAKER_03It's like you never came back with any fish. Like you are either gay as hell or the worst fisherman. You have been going up to this mountain for like five times a year for the last 15 years. Mary a carp have I seen. And it's like, in this world, in this world. In a world. The wife is like one day, like cleaning up, you know, the den or what. She's like, I'm gonna do something nice for Brad. I'm gonna go in and clean up his room after poker diet. And she like opens up the game closet, and there's like uh like a box that says like poker chips, but she opens it up and it's just like all lube. Right.
SPEAKER_07And use condoms that they easily could have thrown away, but they've kept wild turkeys in commercial. I die.
SPEAKER_03I've interrupted you like 50 times. It's okay, where I think this is great. This is the show. The tangent is the show. Um, so there's a lot of chatter, and the guy and I will keep calling him Brad. Let's say it's Brad, whose house they're at for poker night. He goes, Um, somebody's like, uh, hey, light up the cigars or whatever, right? And then and then Brad goes, uh actually, we can't smoke in here. And you hear Rosfres, what? And he and he goes, It bothers Karen's sinuses. And they all go, You are so whipped. And he goes, I am not whipped. And what a kill you guys to use a coaster, and then big laugh from the boys, right? Because, like, what a bitch who considers his wife. Brad's getting influenced essentially by You get it, and then Brad, at that point, they all say you're whipped again. And at that point, Brad has to laugh at himself a little bit because it was pretty gay to ask the boys to use a coaster, and he and Brad laughs and goes. Shut up and pass me that wild turkey.
unknownOh my god.
SPEAKER_03Wild turkey. Cause your wife is a bitch. It's like the most. And even at the time, I think I was like 18 years old when I heard.
SPEAKER_07Whereas Karen might be like, hey boys, let's sign up. But I think Brad is using Karen as cover and he's like really type A, clean, yes, clean individual.
SPEAKER_03Maybe he's Brad is a Walker or a Zack, but unlike a Walker or a Zach, he doesn't, he doesn't have the uh self-confidence or progressive values enough to just go, hey, I, like you did, Kate Walker, I would like you to use a coaster. You didn't go, oh, Kailani, uh, the old ball and chain, if you don't use a coaster. I would, you know, obviously don't care, but you know women.
SPEAKER_07And how much you know women, the kind that work with their hands all day out in a garage. My wife runs a stained glass business with her partner, and she works out in the garage soldering, using a grinder. Right.
SPEAKER_03We're in here recording a podcast. Arguably the most feminine thing, the most beta thing a man could do is record a podcast with another man about an amazing female artist. About an amazing female artist. Zach, you have steered us so deftly to what this podcast is. Welcome to Ideo Talk Listeners. I am Walker Glenn. And I am Zach Glenn. And this is an Apple podcast because we are discussing the music of Fiona Apple. Alternate title to this season: When the Pod Hits the Pod app, it plays like a king, what it says every ep when it goes on the cloud, and you'll hear the whole thing. For you let your phone ring. There's no podcast that's better when you're tuned into night. So when you have headphones, you choose your own cast. And remember that Glens are the greatest of hosts, and if you listen too fast, you'll miss all the jokes. But if you wait, it won't matter because it's in your downloads. I think that was your best reading of it.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. The first one, crushed, because I recognized right away what it was associated to. That was that was flawless.
SPEAKER_03Well, thank you very much. Uh, that is, of course, our play on the title of Fiona Apple's second album, the I believe 93-word title.
SPEAKER_07Uh shit, it's that long.
SPEAKER_03I think I think so.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_03When I last checked uh my 2001 copy of the Guinness Book of World Records, we'll talk about it, listeners. Just a quick bit of housekeeping. If this happens to be your first episode, you've probably turned it off by now because we just discussed a wild turkey ad, I vaguely remember, from the late 90s for several minutes. But in case you are just tuning in, uh Ideo Talk is a podcast where I and my brother Zach talk about our shared musical obsession. Season one was about Radiohead. All I believe 35 episodes of that are right here in your podcast app. If you are following this show, go back and listen to that. If you are or even are not a fan of Radiohead, this season we're talking about Fiona Apple and this episode, we are talking about Fiona Apple's sophomore effort. And let me go ahead and hit the whole title of that here for the first of what will probably be only one or two times, but as we said, famously long title, held the record for a few years after its release. The title of her second album that we are discussing today. When the pawn hits the conflicts, he thinks like a king. What he knows throws the blows when he goes to the fight, and he'll win the whole thing, for he enters the ring. There's no body to batter when your mind is your might. So when you go solo, you hold your own hand, and remember that depth is the greatest of heights. And if you know where you stand, then you know where to land, and if you fall, it won't matter, because you'll know that you're right.
unknownWhew!
SPEAKER_03That's a doozy.
SPEAKER_07It's so great, and I love it. You know, I'm sure that uh it's available or or uh as we've discussed before uh uh in our radio head season when we were reading the uh the poem that more or less inspired the name of the new uh Tom York, Johnny Greenwood, and Tom Skinner project The Smile, I I just said, you know, uh I consider songwriting poetry, not just Fiona Apple, but just in general. But and I've read uh a book uh quite recently actually on just poem, various forms of poems. So it you know it goes from poems from the Greek era all the way up through modernity. I just don't I I just struggle, I think, sometimes to land the rhythmic beats that are implied. But with Win the Pawn, I've only seen it ever written in like uh like kind of long paragraph form. So it's a little bit difficult to know where to punctuate, but I just love it so much because I think even reading it like that, if you just kind of read it without any breaks, it can sound great. And I also think too, what is so we're not talking about if we like it or not. I just love how many individual, you know, maybe three to four word lines there are in there that I'm like, great album title, great album title, great album title. But she starts with the first three words.
SPEAKER_03Well, I don't know how if this is the order we had it laid out in, but talking about the title for a minute, let's do it. Well, why don't you first just uh let us know when the album came out so people have a little bit of context and we'll get into more detailed background soon.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. Uh should I mean, should I just take kind of through the general data related to it or just the when the album was released?
SPEAKER_03Let's do general data and then we'll get back to talking about the title.
SPEAKER_07All right, awesome. So when the pawn, which is how it shall be referred to henceforth.
SPEAKER_03Yep. Often abbreviated as. When. And if we're in a real hurry, we'll call it WTP, even though that's more syllables than when the pawn.
SPEAKER_07So this album was released in the United States on November 9th, 1999. Uh the recorded dates uh you know span fall of 1998 through spring of 1999. Uh, I I don't know uh, you know, final mix and edit and so forth, um, but I think that was pr pretty close up to release. So I always find this very interesting. We usually cover it on Indie U Talk, the uh recording locations where the album was recorded, and uh as a heading I put various locations, and there are um up to seven, but I only put the first four. Andorra Studio, which is in Andorra, France, was about three of the tracks. Chateau Bryan Studio, and I then I have parentheses next to that, John Bryan Studio question mark, because Chateau Brian is a very, very, very like world famous uh winery and vineyard. So, you know, using the old Google or and all that, it it was completely unclear to me if uh do you have any insight to that? Or I don't. So, yeah, so I you know, I mean, like we've talked about with a lot of bands, once you reach a certain level, or uh, and even if you're not at this level, you can record in uh an abbey or something like that, right? So it was very unclear to me if John Bryan calls it Chateau Bryan as like an ironic humorish thing. But the only other albums uh that have been recorded there that I was familiar with was um from A Basement on the Hill by Alex Smith. A few of the tracks. Anyways, we'll come back to that. So unclear if that's John Bryan's, but John Bryan produced this album as we'll come to one second. NGR Recording Studio in North Hollywood and Ocean Way recording studios in uh uh Hollywood, California.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so uh uh preceding the boys going there to just like title. Because title is recorded there as well. So I just uh gestured at this. Um you think when the boys, and by the boys, of course, we mean radiohead, when they were recording Hail to the Thief, like do you think they were ever like I feel like the ghost of Fiona's in here? Yes, I do. Yeah, I had to think about it. Yeah. But I was just trying to the reason why there's no way the boys don't have massive respect for what Fiona does.
SPEAKER_07Well, uh yeah, I didn't I didn't plan on talking about that, but I have been wondering that because obviously, as they always are, radio ahead are in my mind. Uh not not not when I'm listening to other music or whatever, but when I love something that is somewhat contemporary, it it does make me wonder. And and I would love to think that that uh she is because she's on par with them and a contemporary and yada yada. I bet they're all friends. Yeah, I bet they hang out.
SPEAKER_03I I I I would be much more surprised if they hadn't met than if they had. I would agree with that. Although, but yeah, you go there, you got their first, go ahead. They're friends with P. T. Anderson. Uh-huh. Fiona Apple and P. T. Anderson together at the time of this album since broken up. I don't get the impression that it was a particularly amicable relationship or breakup. Neither do I. So is that is it a little bit, is there a little bit of the boys' club of like, you know, are they being like a little bit of a wild turkey ad and being like, we've got a side with Paul, yeah?
SPEAKER_07Well, you know, I I was just gonna say, and it's not uh an ego thing, but you know Johnny Greenwood's not r hanging out with her because Johnny, I don't think, has friends. I don't think so.
SPEAKER_03No, no, especially not women. He's not because he's sexist, but because he respects them so much that he is like uh doesn't want to bother them.
SPEAKER_07I could picture Tom having a hangout or two. Um I'm not implying a romantic one, folks, but um, just to get back on track here, though, in terms of production, the producer of this album is uh John Bryan. Now, we talked a lot about John Bryan in the title episode, but he was not the producer of that album. No. This is the beginning of a fruitful partnership. Now, I just have my notes right here. I know that Walker in particular is gonna have a lot to offer regarding this collaboration and and just the collaboration of Fiona Apple and John Bryan in general, what in particular it brings this album, but we're gonna keep just going through the facts and figures here. The album, uh the genre that this album is placed under genres rather art rock, jazz fusion, pop, alternative rock. I thought that was kind of funny. It's always funny to be how music is classified. And not that it's inaccurate, but it's like, okay, sure. Uh this album was released through. That's more alternative rock.
SPEAKER_03And jazz fusion. Yeah. I mean I know those are her inf I know those are her influences in terms of like uh, you know, kind of the song structure and stuff, but I well, we'll get into it. I find the sound of this album to be very uh alternative rock. I I think it's a it's a it's a it's a very uh kind of big album. Yes, and much less to me, much less jazzy than its predecessor, her game. Sorry, I'm sorry. Shut up and pass me that wild turkey.
SPEAKER_07This album was released through Epic Records, who are are owned by Sony and also distributed through Clean Slate Records.
SPEAKER_03Now, Epic did not have anything to do with her debut, right?
SPEAKER_07That's a I don't think so, right?
SPEAKER_03No, I think the first one was just Clean Slate.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_03So this one did probably symbolizes a uh a step up career-wise in terms of distribution and promotion for her.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, and and uh a bigger company expecting to distribute more, I would say. Um Will they get their wish? Now, this is very, very interesting to me. We don't have to linger on it for too long. Maybe we could talk about it as we go, but the length of this do you have to know the length of this album locker off the top of your head?
SPEAKER_03Uh yeah, it's 48 minutes, I think.
SPEAKER_0742 minutes 39 seconds. Oh, okay. Uh title, any guess or memory of how long that was? Title is almost an hour, right? Title is 51 minutes 31 seconds. And you know, time is is is just uh flat circle. Time is a flat circle, as uh Nietzsche said. Uh is it? Yeah, I think it was Nietzsche. Matthew McConaughey said, yes. Yes, and Matthew McConaughey gets mad that somebody says it at him in True Detective. What is that, Nietzsche? Shut the fuck up. Yeah. Um so, anyways, I just find it interesting because it's not that title is laborious. Go listeners, please go back and listen to that. That episode, uh I uh for me, this one it just doesn't feel shorter just because of the punch it packs. And and yeah, I think that's more as we're listening to it. Um that was all I but like it's it it's shorter, but maybe more density for you. I I guess so, yeah. I mean it's it's like I don't uh shorter but thicker. More girth, if you will. Um I don't yeah, I don't really know because I think. think if it's like if you feel something's length at times, which I don't feel that with title, you know, that typically is a little bit of a negative, like, oh Titanic's a great movie, but you feel its length at times or whatever. You know? I I think that yeah, this one has just packed such a punch. It's it's it's incredible to me that it it's able to do that. I mean nine minutes is a lot for an album. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And Fiona Apple song like three songs for most artists, not for Fiona. It's probably two. But exactly yes. All right. So yeah, I mean I agree. I obviously want to I want to be able to get into what we think the notable differences or strengths or weaknesses of this album are as we kind of listen to it. But I agree with you that it is in some ways a stark contrast to its predecessor, an album that we both unanimously praised on this podcast. And that contrast is immediately apparent on this record starting with the fact that this has a 90 plus word title. The poem is a title her her opening album is called title not title but title. Yeah that's a one-word title now what do you think about this? You kind of already indicated that you think this is really cool. Well yeah I did I wanted to be But I feel like and it's a leading question because I feel like this m this artistic move from Fiona to have a poem be the album title is not something that was very well appreciated in its time for sure.
SPEAKER_07And but are you asking how I feel about it though? I am I you know But with that context how does it age for you I guess I mean I think it ages just fine I think uh I think here here's how I feel about it and how I feel about I would say two to three things about this album. Even the things that I this sounds way too strong to say but I would say I don't like giant air quotes around that or are not my favorite no the aesthetics essentially but but the imperfections of the aesthetics I'm talking about the title the album cover. Okay. And uh well so two things there's there's obviously bullet points within those are things that I think make it as great as it is. Uh-huh so not and it's not as clear as its weaknesses are its strengths because I it's not that I don't like it, but let me just say kind of generally how I feel about it. When I said when you were reading the full thing I you know um like I was looking at where to land and if you fall it won't matter you know I mean I'm not saying that that's better or whatever but I love that I love the bravery to just go with the first three words and then a dot dot dot because when the pawn kind of maybe like the title the opening track on this album isn't really a logical you know three-word sentence. So I just love the Audacity might be a little bit strong of a word. I I don't love it. I love the content of it I don't love it but like I said and we'll talk about this as we go through it a little bit deeper. So I don't mind it. I love the bravery of it is it my favorite album title of hers? Not necessarily sure how do you feel about it I think it's cool.
SPEAKER_03Yeah I do think it's cool. Yeah totally I mean I I get what you're saying. I this is one of those things where I feel like this is maybe some of the stuff about this album and about this period like we've we've already talked a lot about Fiona Apple struggling in terms of her public image and by that I mean more with perception.
SPEAKER_07Not being a slave to what is commercially the commercial expectations are necessary.
SPEAKER_03Sure I would say also funny thoughtful interesting like a lot of positive adjectives too but it's just somebody not unlike somebody we mentioned in the episode of title not unlike Kanye West. Like somebody somebody like who you just don't know what they're gonna say and with Kanye West you really don't know what he's gonna say lately but you have an idea who it might be about um but but like that that exam I wish I had a example that didn't now carry such loaded content perhaps sure sure yeah just somebody who really seems to you know spit it how they feel and some of that stuff people like and some of it people don't like now the way this title was kind of uh resonated with the public I read a lot of contemporary reviews from the time it was put out almost all universally positive about the album itself but almost to a review there was something of a kind of eye roll at the title and I also feel that this title is another little jenga block that gets added or removed. I'm losing track of this metaphor already it's another tick in the column of the press calling her crazy because when Fiona Apple was in a point in her career later from this album where she hadn't put something out for a few years and uh had some other like kind of like public troubles, I guess is how I would say it I feel like you would also have this it's like oh yeah that that crazy chick with the right super long album title. All this is a very long windup of me to say like it or dislike it I think that's totally like a matter of taste and and up for debate about if it's like cool or not or it works or not. I happen to like it but this is this is where I do feel like Fiona Apple gets shit that is reserved for a woman and not only that a young woman and not only that a young outspoken woman who is famous. And I would say not only that a young outspoken famous woman who is also perceived as conventionally attractive.
SPEAKER_07I think all those especially in this time too yes and I'm not I'm not saying anything disparaging about uh any time after this I would say she looks uh like a woman uh at this period where she she looks like a young girl around the title period I'm not trying to make this about her looks but she looks like a young girl who could be 20 or could just be a young girl.
SPEAKER_03Right and they're also and I mean I think that that aspect of her image is we talked about it in title it's I think it's clearly being like pushed too by by the criminal video or yeah exactly and and those and those are also things that she's also talking about like being Yeah so can we talk about that like where the genesis of the title came from for what but but all I so all that to say I do think that when I look back on like the press about Fiona Apple during this time and after this time and the shit she kind of gets for this title I do think that it kind of stinks of we don't like this in combination with all these other things about you. Sure and the and the kind of base of that period being that you're period and the base of that pyramid being that she's a woman. Because I do think that her male contemporaries in music and other art when they make kind of non-commercial or avant-garde moves like this it seems to be received very differently to me than when Fiona Apple does it. Although I do think again all of this stuff I think like I think all the people who want to be perceived as serious in music journalism have come around to being on Fiona Apple's side.
SPEAKER_07That's kind of the idea I was just kidding when I wrote that three page scathing review. Yeah exactly uh albums we would give a higher rating if we could oh we're talking pitchfork here do you recall Walker in our first episode um when we were re when I was quoting uh both contemporary and retrospective kind of reviews about Fiona Apple bursting on the scene and obviously about her debut album and there was one I I don't want to misattribute it to Spin even though I know a Spin magazine figures prominently into the titling of this one. Whatever the case it was a uh three the album got three out of four stars it was the Los Angeles Times I just remembered and the quote was uh you know she's really talented I'm paraphrasing but she's still learning learning the do's and don'ts of show business right and we we both kind of talked about how that was a little bit short sighted because obviously far preceding 1996 uh you know doing uh uh working outside of the do's and don'ts of showbiz um particularly for for male rock and roll artists you know are are are are the artists not just you and I but but folks really have loved the most and and not to say every single thing they do that is new or in revolt or whatever but it it that that quote I just felt like I'm not gonna say that person's a misogynist or you know whatever but but it was a laughable quote because it's like that's very very short sighted.
SPEAKER_03Because other rock stars get to create the do's and don'ts.
SPEAKER_07Exactly with her it's like oh she needs to like learn how to act right but like good good music girl totally so so I feel like this is a bit of a continuation you know um not not necessarily from that quote but you know this is a I would say a don't you know and and not because she's a woman but like doing a 93 word album title that is truncated of course obviously it's and it's not a don't like oh my god that's a career killer but it's not a uh something that is like hey that's a really smart commercial it's non-commercial for sure exactly yeah and and you know talking about kind of I I have a really uh awesome and a short quote here because I want to hear you elaborate on this but um this is from Rolling Stones um 20 years on retrospective uh about um the album Win the Pawn and I I just love it um it's by uh Claire Schaefer the publication date was November 8th 2019 she says following a spin cover story that featured photographs by Terry Richardson Apple flipped open a copy of the magazine photographer right yes I mean I I have in parentheses it says who else question mark yeah yeah but yeah Terry Richardson Apple flipped open a copy of the magazine on tour while on tour to find a whole page of negative letters directed towards her this she had said has said was the final straw and she responded in typical fashion writing a breathless poem that would become her album's next title when the pawn hits the conflicts we we've already read so uh you know and I I I I know I have I'm sure you are familiar with sort of that that being this uh the spark one of the many sparks I would think what do you what do you uh what do you think on this?
SPEAKER_03Well it's not what I think but I love I came across the same story. Sure and I actually did not necessarily know this until researching it for that it was you know like a direct clap back to the negative perception of her. And it's like and I guess we should just say I mean I think I I am not particularly gifted in interpreting poetry but I think it's like pretty clear what this is with that in mind you can kind of let it take you there. Yeah and I think I mean it's a it's a uh it's like a statement of self-empowerment and like don't let them knock you down type of a thing is how I interpret it right very I think it's also very cool that it's when the pawn, right?
SPEAKER_07Not the bishop, not the rook, not the queen chess the pods go first, you know? Right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah exactly and and you she's a pawn who's thinking like a king, you know? Locker. That was beautiful you like that? I forgot I practiced that on the car on the way here. Uh shut up and pass me that wild but yeah I mean I don't know it it's like a little bit of a chicken or the egg thing about I don't know if I kind of knew and then forgot what this poem was about according to Fiona herself and then kind of naturally interpreted it that way or if it just gave me that feeling anyway and then it was confirmed through my resource uh research confirmed through my research but I have a quote from Fiona herself about the uh story you just told about her writing this on the tour bus in direct response to uh seeing a bunch of mean letters about her in Spin magazine and this is back when music magazines like really mattered kids you know uh this is also from an interview with Spin. Yeah uh after the fact not the one that she got all the negative feedback about but um it says only later did she decide to make it an album title quote the reasons why I did it were just stupid really she says with more than a hint of exasperation. I'd had this idea I was going to use my California ID picture for the cover with mainly words around it. It would be like fuck you to having a picture because on the last album I liked the photos but then when I saw the finished CD I had been totally airbrushed. I just hated that how it looked all slick. So what's behind this you guys just don't get that this time you don't get me sitting here trying to look pretty you don't get that extra push. Apple has since thought of a simpler title she thinks would have been equally effective just the date she had started started and finished recording quote but now it looks like I was trying to get publicity or say something to the world and I totally wasn't. I do things and they just come off wrong. I wish I didn't have to take shit for it because it's not important enough to me. Now that's something that I wanted to point out is this did have the world record for longest album title till 2007 I don't think that anything about like wanting to be noted for the length of this album title does not seem at all like the kind of place she makes her artistic decisions from. I think it's just like with her music you really get what she is feeling at the time and and this was the best way to express that. And because of all that I really like this album title. But I do think it's like unfortunate that or or I don't know maybe not I just think it it must I I don't stand with the um the criticism of of the time that she no not at all and I want to be clear too and I know you're not trying to flip this back on me.
SPEAKER_07When I say that it's it's not something I don't I'm not responding to you. No no I completely understand that I just want to just you know just reinforce I don't think anyone's gonna be like well Zac didn't like it. He must be a mis you know no of course not but I just want to say I like it I and I really really enjoy the full thing when I can read it because I just like the rhythm to it. I like you know uh I I I like what it has to say in terms I mean one of the things I think Fiona Apple is so brilliant at and I would say uh now having just recently finished uh Maya Angelou's autobiography I know why the cage bird sings I think what Fiona Apple has a great strength in and I would say Maya Angelou is a is a clear influence of as she you know says herself is sentences in a poetic sense or lyrics or whatever if you just read them without looking for a dualistic read on it right um they're just beautifully constructed sentences and the rhythms or like hey that's clever or whatever um but then if you choose to uh kind of look at the brevity of it or you know that it's it's sort of word painting in a sense they they both do that I I mean because listeners I just want to call attention to Walker did read it as well uh got him a copy.
SPEAKER_03I'm still reading it Zach got me a copy also uh I'm about uh three quarters of the way through and it's a it's a gorgeous book and I really really do see the direct influence on the way Fiona Apple writes her lyrics. Yeah and I was describing I had the the pleasure of describing my experience reading it to former guest Nicole Love um who has read that book twice and I and I said For a second I thought you were saying that you read the book to Nicole and I was just like No I didn't know that would be very strange that would be strange you guys are friends but like I was like wow this is this is a whole side of your relationship with Nicole that I was not I was not aware that you were reading Maya Angelou out loud to my girlfriend.
SPEAKER_07Talk about Alpha So I we we were briefly discussing it and I said you know Maya Angelou if I had to summarize which I don't but I'm going to because you're talking to me you know it's kind of like dreams and colors a little bit but the thing that I I adore about uh within this autobiography is it's not gratuitous and and I mean her writing style is not gratuitous when she um is using a uh of like a visual metaphor or something to describe anything right and I think she does it with such brevity which is so incredible and and I'm not gonna say that Fiona Apple I think Fiona Apple is very original yet the influence is clear. I'm not gonna say that that that's always how I feel but it was very very just real quickly on that I just want to say that one of the other things I said to Nicole that I think she appreciated was I was like I love it when I read a book that in the moment and then following its completion I can tell it was life changing. And and I'm I'm not trying to unduly beg I'm not trying to you know suck up or anything that that is the truth listeners I would say educated by Tara Westover had a similar feeling 2001 a Space Odyssey. There's a there's a few of them in there that have in the last few years and it was life changing for a whole bunch of reasons. This is not you know a Maya Angelou podcast all of a sudden but it was very very cool to think about her influence over Fiona. Please walker speak on that if you have any thoughts.
SPEAKER_03No I love what you're saying. Also I was thinking how funny it would be if you and me started a Maya Angelou podcast. Yeah yeah yeah I because I can't think of two better people to do those together. Well after our Aretha Franklin podcast right yeah but Aretha Franklin I feel like even makes more sense because it's music at least and I think we've like proven our bona fides in terms of discussing music intelligently but yeah it's like I don't know who should we get to do this podcast about Maya Angelou Oprah Winfrey or Walker and Zach Glenn who wrote the forward to my copy of it. Yeah a very good forward I thought no I love what you're saying and um I think that most art that I appreciate has that ability to be taken on your at first glance level and then there is deeper layers to unpack there. But like with movies and and even music I think and books it's I'm kind of like if if I can't get through it the first time without getting something out of it right like if I can't enjoy it just as like especially with movies like I want there to be enough that meat on the bone for me to go back and go what what are they saying with this, that and the next thing but I also just want to sit down and watch a movie and have it work like that. Yeah. I think Fiona and Maya's and yes I'm on a first name with both basis with both these ladies um I think both their work works that way and I think that specifically what their writing really has in common is these sentences are so emotionally evocative that they completely resonate with you before I even have to like really parse out the exact meaning of what is being said.
SPEAKER_07Absolutely yeah that's the mark of good art I feel like you know and not by our my definition I mean if if that if the art the person saw compels them to do so I think that's the mark of what is good art you know because art is subjective.
SPEAKER_03Please go ahead please no totally and also just that they completely put you in the mind of a person who on paper I don't have much in common with right with Fiona it's like a different background she's a woman with my Angelou extremely different background she's a black woman like you know uh growing up in like a time of much more explicit prejudice all this different stuff. But I'm not consuming I'm not interacting with this work going well what the fuck is there for me? I'm uh you know uh I'm I'm just a poker playing bro having fun with my boys out here like it it it he's coasters and shit yeah it hits on a on a very like connected level and yeah so no I mean it was all if you haven't heard it yet you're hearing it on Ideo Talk podcast My Angelou pretty good very good and I mean it's just I just I'm gonna say pretty good and that way there's a little bit of tension on the podcast.
SPEAKER_07Oh for sure and but I mean and just kind of maybe one of my last thoughts you know before we start the album on on uh when the cage bird sings you know one of the things that was really striking to me that I was feeling when I was listening to uh When the Pawn over the last few weeks kind of having you know be been reading it in conjunction you know and then and then having finished it and just listening to the album on repeat as I do uh is I know why the Cage Bird sings it does this this incredible thing of capturing childlike innocence in a way that really does feel like she remembers it perfectly vividly and I think that's really difficult to do you know it's like I don't have any children but you know you know you might I see it my nieces and nephews when there's that that that that beautiful and sweet childlike innocence or curiosity or whatever. Maya Angelou has this this insane ability to project her consciousness backwards and articulate the experience of a child when you're taking in sometimes traumatic things sometimes Just normal everyday life stuff, or in in the case of her, you know, she w was raised in California and Arkansas, but deeply segregated, uh, you know, uh section of the country, and sort of just taking that in and sort of accepting it, but the confusion of it as well. But she's also pissed about segregation and the treatment of African American or black people in America, and I it's very unbridled. And I love that.
SPEAKER_03And and it definitely doesn't feel like it's like right in a way where it's trying to make white readers comfortable. Not at all.
SPEAKER_07And that that's what I I really loved, and I don't want to say is is was wholly new. It was definitely new. I the reason why I'm saying this, uh Walker, and and he's not falsely modest about it, but I I'm just really impressed by your um depth of knowledge pertaining to like Malcolm Max, for instance, right? And he would also be somebody who I'd say was pretty unbridled about his his anger, just you know, very justified compared. So, anyways, it was just really, really, you know, interesting to read that. It didn't feel like edited for a white audience, you know. And and in and to type back to Fiona and win the pawn, one of the emotions I get that I do think stands in contrast to title is it it it she sounds pissed. Yes. And in a way that I fucking adore. I love it.
SPEAKER_03This album gets me pumped, Walker. This album it leans much more into visceral anger, and I would also say Like she's at the mic like this.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, it's it's in your face, it's intense, uh, it's it's like got a real grabby by the throat energy. I would say it also has kind of again, I think I I'm gonna quote myself here and say, like, Fiona Apple's quote journalist Walker Glenn. Yeah. You know, somebody whose work I'm a huge fan of, really put it best, Zach. Uh where uh Elliot Smith talks about most of his songs are about how difficult it is to be a person, and I feel like Fiona Apple's music is more about like the rainbow of emotion involved in being a person and kind of celebrating all of it. Like even the sad stuff doesn't feel it always feels like there's like a real ownership over like every emotion and kind of like reveling in it. I think this one is also weirdly more uh, and I don't just mean this in terms of tempo, but also in tempo, it's more of an upbeat record than the last one.
SPEAKER_07The last one has a little moreity songs feel how like they have a little bit more of a uh to me, sorry.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, agreed. I I think this is like a weirdly joyful record, too, as well as being an angry one. Even the cover, uh, compared to the last one, it's like the first one is it's just a close-up on her eyes, but all the liner note photos and stuff, they're all very uh uh serious, kind of like sultry. I also think like the I also think the sex angle is being like played up a lot more on the first records. These there's a lot of like kind of photos of her the cover is a photo of her laughing.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. So since we're on that, uh can I uh no, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I really want to talk about because this was the other thing where I said like the things that I don't necessarily love make me love the album more. Sure. And and then it is that with the cover, and you mentioned like her idea of using her identification photo or from her driver's license and so forth.
SPEAKER_03I I love that it is a picture which is like uh uh Old Dirty Bastard, if she did it is Brooklyn's old Dirty Bastard from Wu Tang Clan and his solo record is. Yeah, yeah, of course. I'm sorry, I was thinking of the brewing company at New York City.
SPEAKER_07New York idea California. Um no, I love that. Um That is not the image they ultimately went with, though, right? The the image on the cover of When the Pawn is not from her identification photo. No, no. Here's my thing with it.
SPEAKER_03So it's a black and white photo over the red album cover and then the right looking and really, really, really earnest smile.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. So it's not that I don't like the album cover, it's not what I would have gone with. However, I do love it, and it made it it not only is it something that I can like, oh well the album's so good, I think it makes me like the album more. I don't find this to be a particularly joyful album. Okay. Yet it brings me joy, but for Fiona and what and the emotions that I I feel like she's conveying, I love the sense of irony of a beaming, joyful Fiona apple on the cover, and then you listen to the album. I mean, it's not like it's like a death metal record or something like that, but uh, but I do think it moves at a brisker pace. Yeah. And a brisker pace driven by I gotta bang on my drum set because I love to play music, but also I'm a little bit pissed that my or whatever, you know what I'm saying? And and I love and I I love that the the I just love the non-commercial nature of it, and I love the the potential. I'm not saying this is with her intent, but I love what I perceive to be the sense of irony. Title is right up. I I actually really like the album cover to title, and if she's not a fan of it, I understand. I I think she was speaking, she there is a quote I have here where she talks about how she was very frustrated at how airbrushed she was. Yeah, we read it. Oh, I'm sorry. Okay, yeah. So Walker Glenn uh read that quote, journalist. Yeah, and I'm also now I'm saying it's a quote from Walker Glenn. You know, so I'm only speaking to the cover. I love the sort of minimalist approach of that. Uh, and in a way, Walker, and I'm not gonna do this throughout, but you know, as listeners know, our first season was about the band Radiohead. It does remind me of this, not the album, but just the cover, the sort of non-commercial nature, a little bit of Kidday and Amnesiac. And not just because the coloration, there's also black and red and kind of black and white, but and it's not that when the pawn has a minimalist approach, because it you do see her her beautiful smiling face and and all that, but I I I don't know. I just I I feel like uh there's a quote. This is not a radio podcast, but there's a quote Tom has about the album Amnesiac, where he said, uh, you're in the fire because the the the kind of red textile fabric is not blood red, it's a little bit orange. And with this one, I I you know it's fine. I love that quote. And I kind of think about that with with Win the Pond, too, that you're in the fire with Fiona a little bit. So that's all.
SPEAKER_03I don't disagree with anything you're saying, and this is what makes it great, is that it can it can feel differently to the you know, depending on who's listening to it. But I I really do get a joyfulness from this album, but it's it's a manic joy. The album sounds like yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the the the you know it it's not this clean, but for the sake of the point I'm trying to make about this album, I feel like title is more the depression swing, and this is more the manic upswing.
SPEAKER_07Okay. And it kind of is like if from a basement and a figure eight had a baby a little bit of the feelings it gives me, not even sonically.
SPEAKER_03Totally, but I do think there's some sonic similarities with those albums too. Again, I don't know if that's just kind of like a little bit of the 90s LA alternative rock sound, the John Bryan of it all, um, and also like these people are contemporaries in the same music scene, so I also think that it's probably like everybody's influencing each other a little bit. Yeah, absolutely. But to me, the Fiona's music in general and this album in particular, it's the joy is is reveling in the messiness of it. Sure. It's it's not that the lyrics are always positive or even life-affirming, because that's it's rarely the case with any of her albums that it is not exploring like the dark sides of the human condition psyche experience. But it just the tone of this one to me is kind of like, yeah, fuck it. Let's let's have let's have fun with it, let's like lean into the mess. You know, uh, we'll get into the songs himself, but with the song uh a mistake, it's saying it's expressing that sentiment outright. We should get into the music, so why don't we before we do that talk about what our experience coming to this album is? And I'd love to hear about that for you. I don't actually know this.
SPEAKER_07Oh, oh, for sure. Well, I mean, I think I mentioned it a little bit in our our first episode that uh, you know, Title was an album I was familiar with upon its release because our mom listened to on Compact Disc. You you awoke some wonderful memories of us as a family. I think uh Shadow Boxer was like the whole band would light up.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07Um so you know, I had that memory of it. And then in the Pandora era, Spotify was around, but in the Pandora era when I was delivering pizzas uh for Domino's Pizza till three in the morning, you know, on a good night. Uh I I was really, really that was a period of exploration, re-exploration, my musical taste. It was post-Radiohead, post my discovery of Radiohead and adopting them as my favorite band. And it wasn't a thing of like, man, I feel so good. This was before we used the word woke, ladies and gentlemen, but man, I'm so open-minded and woke because I have all these stations of female artists. No, it wasn't like that, but it was really, really, really, really cool to be like, I kind of feel like there's this other side of music that I'm not, you know, we grew up on Bonnie Raitt, Linda Ronstadt, and and and and and obviously Flewwood Mac, but like, you know, like, oh my god, like it's not about bifurcating music that way. So I would say 2012, which was the year of a release of a phony Fiona Apple album, was when I became obsessed uh with this album. And I would use the word obsessed, and for the longest time, uh this has been my favorite Fiona Apple album. You know, I love title, I love talking about it, I love a lot of the songs on it. To me, this is a a big leap forward. Um and and we'll talk about that as we go through the songs. Maybe I don't want to hog the mic too much, but and I'm not gonna say that it's been dethroned. I just don't think it's exciting to hear about future albums when we're focused on a particular one. Uh but yeah, but yeah, there's there's no ambiguity to it for uh when I would want to you know make a playlist for somebody, or or if they were asking me which Fiona Apple album, I would maybe if if I were making a playlist, I would throw Criminal on there, I'd throw Shadow Boxer on there, you know. But this is an album walker that stands kind of alone in this regard, where every single song, at least for the front half, I'm like, this is my favorite song. Ah no, this is my favorite song. No, no, this is my favorite song on it. Uh so I adore this album. Gosh, 2012 was 11 years ago, and I would say around the fall is when I was like, I've heard this album, I've heard some of the songs, I love it, and and and this is my favorite album of an artist that I adore in my top 10. So yeah, not not the most incredible background, but I I am like so, so passionate about how much I love this album.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, what about you? Uh, dude, pretty similar. I think that for me, uh, my my um my discovery of Fiona Apple as one of my favorite artists came with Extraordinary Machine. I believe I've referenced five 2005, I believe I've referenced it already. Uh but you know, just a time in my life where I remember discovering a lot of new music. Sure. And my girlfriend at the time got that album and was playing it a lot, and it was kind of like, oh yeah, Fiona Apple.
SPEAKER_04Oh yeah, I'm a favor.
SPEAKER_03Um, and so my familiarity with was title, skipped over this album, right? And then Extraordinary Machine came out, uh, fell in love with that album, like realized she's one of, you know, oh, she's one of my favorites, you know, went from like somebody who, oh yeah, I like those few songs. She probably has what, seven albums at this point, right? But it I don't think it and so I loved Extraordinary Machine enough that by the time the Idler Wheel came out in 2012, I was greatly anticipating it and got into it right away. But I don't think it was until Idler Wheel came out that I went back and rediscovered title and kind of discovered this album for the first time. I knew songs because what you referred to as the Pandora era, I would say for me, uh it was probably a little more of the LimeWire era where I feel like it's like I was listening to Extraordinary Machine all the time. Which LimeWire was tits, I just gotta say. Yeah, but people would upload shit incorrectly all the time and mislabel it. So I think that until the Idler Wheel, my Fiona Apple catalog was Extraordinary Machine on CD. And I'm talking like this was on in the car. I can attest, listeners, in that Jeep Cherokee. In the Jeep Cherokee, living in the Bay Area in Berkeley, California, just you know, all the time. Yeah. For I don't know, a year. Right. And then it and then it stayed in rotation as like this is one of my favorite albums. I think at some point during that period, I probably went and downloaded like Fiona Apple first two albums or whatever, but it was like songs from each of the first two albums.
SPEAKER_07And then they would highlight like what are like kind of the this is pre-Spotify folks. Yeah. Walker was reading music journalism album or uh uh music journals, you know, uh magazines and so forth.
SPEAKER_03Thinking about how much they were mistreating Fiona Apple and the press. Um thinking if he was gonna vote for Obama. Yeah. Yeah, vote for Obama or a little game show host from Queens, New York.
SPEAKER_01Something about this guy strikes me as hmm racist. Anyway.
SPEAKER_03So, long-winded way of saying my deep discovery of this album was after the Idler Wheel, when that album just I think probably r raised her in my esteem as one of my favorite songwriters from where she even was. And also similarly to how uh like In Rainbows was the album that you got introduced to through me and really loved by.
SPEAKER_07I'm sorry, what it by who who's the band of that?
SPEAKER_03Oh, by Ana Friday.
SPEAKER_07Oh, got it. Okay, yeah, yeah. Sure, sure.
SPEAKER_03I think similarly to and then Hail to the Thief was like this one's mine. Yeah. I think that Extraordinary Machine was like, oh yeah, I love that album. I love Fiona Apple, but also it's like tied to this relationship, and this was hipped to me, and then the idler wheel was the one that I felt like now this is my album. Well, that's what's and then I went back and and uh Zach, I also I don't even know if I should say it. I mean I mean I love not just every song on this album, I love every choice on this album.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I love it.
SPEAKER_03This album fucking rules.
SPEAKER_07This album fucking rules and and and and I just wanted to tack this on. I it was so serendipitous, and and you know, who knows? It's not nothing is ever chance when we're talking about the way we interact with our devices, but it was I don't because I don't know the release date of uh the Adler Wheel. I know it's 2012, but I don't you know it is interesting to me that it's like because I was in a more exploratory mindset, you know. I mean, at that point I had lived on my own for two years, you know, or whatever. So just really dipping my toe in the water of, you know, what does Zach like to do or whatever? And the answer was smoke weed. Um, but no, I'm kidding. Um, no, I meant musically though, and and getting really into Win the Pawn, and then for that album to be released upon my I don't want to say rediscovery because I it's not like I was a Fiona Apple fanatic from title, we just grew up around it. So it was really, really cool because I and the reason why that's worth mentioning is because Fiona Apple does not put out albums frequently. So it was it was I it was serendipitous happenstance, maybe not. I don't know that I was like getting into a more exploratory mindset in terms of just the range of artists and styles that I listened to, and then hey, there's a new album, and really, really, really getting into it. And I'm not gonna say from 2012 to 2020 that she took a back seat or anything. I would I would list her amongst my favorite artists, but when in 2020, when Fetch the Bolt Cutters came out, uh, you know, there's a quote from Dave Grohl that he said Fetch the Bolt Cutters saved his sanity in the year of 2020, which I just love. I love Dave Grohl. I don't I don't love the everything the adversary make, but I I really do like that that man. Yeah, he seems cool. Yeah, and he said it's just he said, you know, we were all going saying there's so much uncertainty, and it's not that this album provides uh, you know, comfort in those ways necessarily, but it did for me, and he just is such a huge fan of hers. So all that to say, when that album came out, which I think was quite early in the year, uh I would say Yeah, and we were like, this will get us through the next seven or eight days. Well, along with uh, you know, all those stars singing Imagine and stuff. That's really what got me through.
SPEAKER_03Fetch the Bolt Cutters was my second favorite album after the Gal Godot led a match. Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the Aaron Paul and the Aaron Paul White Supremacy video.
SPEAKER_07Sarah Sarah Paulson was really the highlight of that. Anyways, but um no, Fetch the Bolt Cutters was the album of 2020 for me, and along with Tommy's anima. And and so anyway, all that to say, uh, that eight-year interim, it's not as if she took a backseat or anything like that, but when Fetch the Bolt Cutters came out, because I listened to it so much and was like, okay, I'm a little tired of it. I'm gonna listen to those other albums again. That is when she she and I mean this respectfully, when she became my girl, you know, or or my one of my artists. So that's all. Should we listen to the album? No. Okay.
SPEAKER_03Goodbye, listeners. No, let's get into this.
SPEAKER_07Um, I uh Oh, actually, Walker, before we do that, can I just um talk about John Bryan a little bit? Yeah. This is this is real short, but and I know we'll talk about the production choices a lot through this incredibly produced album. I'll just say it right now. Um, I did just want to read this quote from Fiona herself. So um, lead up this is from that Rolling Stone article I referenced earlier. Um she says, When the pawn both highlights and navigates its own melodrama with the help of Apple's producing partner, John Bryan, who'd already collaborated with singer-songwriter like Rufus Wainwright, another personal favorite of mine, and Amy Mann. And then they go on to say what he does. So I'm gonna skip ahead a little bit to what Fiona says about their partnership, and I I just love this. She says, I think I have figured out what I'm good at. She allegedly told Brian when they began working together. I write pretty well. I'm a good I'm a good singer, and I could play my songs well enough on piano. I just I love the way she talks about herself. It's not falsely modest. Uh yeah, I can play my songs well on the piano. I'd agree with her there. You are good at everything else. So I think that's how we should proceed. And if we are ever off bass, I'll let you know.
SPEAKER_03That's great. I'm gonna hit you with a quote about John Bryan talking about her. Fiona shows up on time, sings three passes of the vocal. It's amazing. She is completely articulate about her likes and dislikes. She's also able to describe why, in terms of the song, she doesn't think something works emotionally. A lot of people don't have that talent and come shell-shocked from bands or producers they've worked with and not necessarily open to ideas. There are a lot of people who simply because an idea is not their own are not perceptive to it. She doesn't suffer from any of that.
SPEAKER_07Oh, so it's very collaborative.
SPEAKER_03It's very collaborative. They both have a huge admiration and appreciation for what the other person is bringing to the table. Um, Zach, why don't you tell us one more time when the date of release on this album was? November 9th, 2000 uh 1999. Pardon me. So just this is just really a fun bit of trivia that I wanted to get in there. We've already referenced Fiona Apple was in a relationship with filmmaker Paul Thomas Anderson at this time. Now, this is not a podcast about Fiona Apple's boyfriends or discussing her work from the point of view of like the men she's dated, but she's had some like interesting high-profile romances. First of all, yeah, that guy's made some good, good like people like his movies, right?
SPEAKER_07Yeah, and I'm one of them. Uh and he is married to Maya Rudolph now, who was born July 27th. Today's date.
SPEAKER_03Oh, today's happy birthday, Maya Rudolph. And happy birthday, Zach Glenn, folks. We're recording this on Zach Glenn's birthday and uh a birthday that he shares with Maya Rudolph, who uh if you have anything bad to say about her, you take it the fuck somewhere else because I don't want to hear it. American Treasure.
SPEAKER_07Maya Rudolph stars in the movie Bridesmaids, which features a song from this fucking album. Really?
SPEAKER_03Which one? Um uh paperbag. Oh, also featured in Love. Yep. Okay. Please go ahead. Um P.T. Anderson. She's dating P. T. Anderson at the time. He directed the music videos for this album. He sure did. And I don't feel weird bringing up Fiona Apple's relationship history because, like everything else with Fiona Apple, she seems to talk about it very candidly before, during, and after. Maybe not before. During and after. Um I want to date P.T. Anderson, she said in the press. Well, a very handsome guy, in my opinion. Uh also, uh look, just as a fan of what these guys do, her boyfriend during the previous album was David Blaine. So I would block her.
SPEAKER_05I was gonna tell you.
SPEAKER_03David Blaine like has done some stuff that I really enjoy. Um, but I will just say uh huge upgrade in my opinion, just in terms of like a fan of what they do. Can't speak to how they are as boyfriends, but only one of those two guys is in Jeffrey Epstein's little black book, and it is not P. T. Anderson. So uh again, uh, you know, you'd think uh maybe you could have made your name disappear from that book.
SPEAKER_01Bill Clinton. Chris Tucker.
SPEAKER_03Chris Tucker, Bill Clinton, Malcolm Gladwell, Matt Groening. Matt Graning's on the plane. I know I know that's fine. I just No, it's not fine to be on Jeffrey's.
SPEAKER_07No, no, it's not no no no I didn't mean it's not. We don't disagree about a lot. I didn't mean it's not a good thing. I don't think it's fine to be on Jeffrey Epstein's plane. I did not mean it's fine. It's upsetting.
SPEAKER_03Anyways, P.T.
SPEAKER_07Anderson not hanging out with Jeffrey Epstein.
SPEAKER_03Not hanging out with Jeffrey Epstein, busy making some of the best movies of the 20th and 21st century. Uh in any case, all of this is to say Magnolia opened two weeks after this movie. He is like hot, hot shit from Boogie Knight. She's hot, hot shit from Tidal. So they're like something of an it couple of the moment. And I just loved this quote from Fiona Apple referring to the fact that her second album and his second movie came out two weeks apart. The timing is ridiculous. I'd want to slap us. Oh my lord. I just thought that was so funny. Also, folks, do yourself a favor, look up some pictures of them from this time together on the red carpet of Magnolia. It is so funny. Yeah, they're covered in frogs. He like the fashion is so ugly and ridiculous and so in again.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I was gonna say, I don't agree. I like the way they look.
SPEAKER_03I do too, but it's also it's like but it's it's everything. Like it's just it's it's the best. Yeah, yeah. They both are doing a lot and taking some big swings, and I and I love them for it. And it's just like, my God, like I can't believe what young people this work came from. Anyway, that's it. I just wanted to say that Fioda Apple, even at the time, had this self-deprecating wherewithal to be like, yeah, fuck up.
SPEAKER_07No, she's funny though, but you said it before. Like, and it's not that she's funny in her brevity of it, she doesn't discount the impactfulness of her work. I think she's very confident, but I I've known people like this, right? Where it's like it's not like the the people I know that are artistic and good and stuff are like, oh yeah, it's fine, fuck it, or whatever. But I I just feel like she has this nice way of being confident, but also being like, yeah, it was cool.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_07And I just love that. And so yeah, we were talking, um, I mean, I was pretty much done with we were talking about her collaboration with John Bryan. Um, really, really quickly, just before we start the album, I just want to say um one other thing. I don't know if we covered this. I we did not cover this, so I just want to say it real quick. In comparison to title, as we talked about with the album length, you know, this album, it not not successful retrospectively in terms of Rolling Stones 500 greatest albums, it is number 108. Um, in terms of certification and sales, uh in the United States up to uh the last time this this data was published was March of 2020. It has sold 1 million copies, making it uh platinum. And in Japan, it has sold 100,000 copies, which is equivalent to gold. And that data is from January of 2007. So it did not necessarily commercially do as well as title in terms of its sales.
SPEAKER_03Um but didn't it chart I and I knew that, but didn't it its uh top chart position in terms of the billboard singles? Didn't it chart a few? But I'm just talking about like radio play for fast as you can.
SPEAKER_07I understand. I I I think the answer is no. Okay. Where I think though, and and if I'm wrong, you know, I'm sorry, listeners, but where I where I think that first of all, it doesn't matter, but uh is that this album is so favorably looked upon retrospectively and did very, very well critical. The critical reception that was not um it was not positioned to be accepting and excited. There's a lot of begrudging, holy shit, this is great, yes, uh type of reviews. And we'll maybe we'll talk about that later later, maybe not, but uh it does it so it doesn't matter, right? Like there's there's a lot of movies or or whatever, you know, that that become cult classics. This album was not a cult classic, it just didn't do quite as well in terms of its sales volume. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And it underperformed based on how big the hits were off the first one. Sure. But it's better than the first one. It was received better than the first one. Yeah. And but yeah, it's it's a uh uncommercial record for 1999. Yeah. And uh and my understanding is that these three singles, Fast As You Can, Limp, and Paper Bag, got like radio didn't really touch them much until kind of the video I think came out for Limp or Fast As You Can, and then that one got some increased airplay. I can't remember which one.
SPEAKER_07Well, and it's interesting, Walker, because I know we want to get into the album, and this is this is m truly my last thing, but you think about the year 1999, and just in popular music, and I'm thinking, uh, you know, a band I love. I I truly do love them. Uh now they prefer to go by the chicks, but the Dixie Chicks at the time really, really, really, really bursting onto the scene. And uh the the chicks are very sophisticated musicians. Um and and obviously the singer Natalie, I forget her last name, is is is is incredible. But I do think that that's a pretty solid indication kind of of what uh at least in America, you know, and not just in Middle America, but America, America was really, really, I think, kind of shifting towards, and when you think about just you know, that's just one example. Brittany Spears, um, you know, I baby one more time might be might be 1998, you know, that uh her debut album. You I just I I just don't feel like this is super at home in 1999. And well, well, I know we talked about that, but I I I don't think it would have been at home necessarily in 1996 or 2002, but they that's just it's just always so interesting, you know, to kind of think about like what was really, really kind of bubbling to the fray because 1996 was a very different year. You know, we had Atlanta Sportset, Sarah McLaughlin. I I feel like 1999 represents a distinctly different sort of popular music amongst other female artists, is all I mean to say.
SPEAKER_03Yes, and Fiona Apple is still hard to categorize because even I'll I'll start a station on a streaming service sometimes from one of her songs, and they what they put on is a bunch of other 90s female artists who do not sound anything like Natalie and Brugula? Not that pop, but Alanis Morissette. Um you ought to know that that's what's gonna happen. Thank you very much. Well, I got one hand in my pocket skipping this song because I want to hear if you own an apple. Um Zach is got his face in his hands, he liked that one. Um But to me, where it's like I listen to this album, and to me it would sound if I were to throw a shuffle on, it would sound much more at home with uh Beck, Elliot Smith, um Radiohead, frankly. Yeah. Um, and you know, and I'm sorry that I'm listing only other male artists, but I just My Angelou. But remember that Zach and I purchased and read I Know Why the Cage Bird Sings. No, I love the sonically, it's like even now it feels like the algorithm that puts these stations together goes, oh, you mean women artists? And I mean and it's like, no, I mean weird singer-songwriters.
SPEAKER_07Sure, but what about though? I mean, uh an artist, I don't uh correct me if I'm wrong, I don't I don't know if you're as familiar or or pumped on her, but Sia, I I've brought up um I lia I don't really know Sia. Adore Sia. I adore Sia. I I don't know that she's necessarily at the level, but she uh by the way, calls Fiona Apple a tremendous influence. Um Regina Specter, I actually I misjudged when she came onto the scene. I quite like. Okay. Uh just hear a lot of Fiona Apple influence and and um and uh they would also be part of the the kind of group of folks that I was talking about in 2012. So that that's all.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and and I think to clarify too, I think I it it always goes for I'm maybe another 90s artist. Um I like a lot of female artists that I hear a lot of Fiona Apple in. Oh, I don't mean this defensively, I just am saying I think it's based on my knowledge of 90s music, I think it is hard to place her with some of her most visible female contemporaries of the time. I hear a ton of Fiona Apple in artists that I listen to that are more from now, but yeah, I just don't know the other female artists that sounded like this then. It doesn't mean they're not out there. I don't know.
SPEAKER_07All I want to do is have some fun. Exactly.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think you get the point I'm trying to make. Is it's just it doesn't mean they're not out there. I don't know them. The music that I know from the 90s that sounds like this is the shit that I listen. It's weirder shit. Let's get into the album. What do you say? Oh yeah. All right, so we've talked about how this album is less commercial. We've talked about how much we love it. So is it going to kick off with something that reflects that vibe? And you know we love a vibe here on Ideo Talk Podcast. Sometimes a comedic vibe, sometimes a serious vibe, sometimes a uh disc two white men discussing Maya Angelou vibe. But there is no vibe that will not be explored on Ideo Talk Podcast. Let's see what vibe Fiona is exploring on the opening track of Win the Pawn.
SPEAKER_01Do you recognize this? This is Three Days Grace. It is Turn it up. Oh wait, I'll turn it up. Oh my god. I was after everyone. Zach, do you know what country Three Days Grace are from? Is it our northern neighbors? It is. No, are you shitting me? I did not know what it was. I looked it up to see who sings this song because I couldn't remember the name of the band. Three Days Craze. It's our Canadian rock band. And you're like, I'm not surprised at all. I don't know where uh you turn off the TV and screen it would be. Is that in this song?
SPEAKER_03No, that's this house is not a home. Is that also Three Days Craze? Wow, somebody was in a bad domestic situation when they were writing these songs.
SPEAKER_07Oh, because what? You somebody turned off the TV that they've been watching for seven hours and told them to go out fuck inside.
SPEAKER_03And also, because in this, it's like after every hit we take. So this is like very Canadian that they have multiple songs about like we're drug addicts who are addicted to weed. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_04Why?
SPEAKER_07Do I do love you? I think we nailed out Harmony. Let's try it again. About you!
SPEAKER_04Why? Do I three days great?
SPEAKER_03Now, did they start as a Christian band? They uh I'm sure they they did.
SPEAKER_02I'm gonna fade this out.
SPEAKER_03Everybody in Canada's a Christian, right? Doesn't that track?
SPEAKER_00Just like, oh well, you know, we don't we're not too in your face about it, but we all love the Lord. Yeah, we go to church on Sunday. Died for our sins, didn't he?
SPEAKER_03At least we could do his worshiping now and again. Alright, so let's get into the actual album. This is the opening track from Win the Pond on the Bound. Starts with a pretty dark kind of attitude. A dark vibe. A dark vibe, if you will. And what we're hearing there is that wow, wow, we're hearing the Chamberlain, that pre-Melatron synth that John Bryan loves so much.
SPEAKER_07And not Matt Chamberlain, but Matt Chamberlain.
SPEAKER_03No. There's multiple Chamberlains on this album. Not Jimmy Chamberlain. Not Jimmy Chamberlain either. Famously a drummer. One of my favorite drummers. Can I say a little bit about You kick us off Locker? Well, the song's fucking awesome. And I'm gonna let it play, but just kind of talk about. You already hinted at what an amazing creative relationship these two seem to have. John Bryan and I think we should just let this just you were talking about she's growling.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. Radioheader, like, we're gonna use that, aren't we?
SPEAKER_03You were all like the vocals are way more abrasive than anything we heard on title. Yeah, but wait. This girl can sing. Yes, she sure can. And even but even the runs are weird and abrasive.
SPEAKER_07And maybe some faith would do make a that break reminds me of a lot of her future albums. Feels very fetch the bolt cutters. We're not talking about that album today, but the the stop start, which I love in this album. Uh they could be trite, but uh really, really she nails them on this album and in that part as well.
SPEAKER_03Now we talked about the juxtaposition on this album between, you know, me saying it sounds kind of joyful and you getting kind of uh different notes from it. This song, very nice irony here. As you said, also used by Radiohead and other artists, of course, but she's saying, You're all I need, and maybe some faith would do me good. And it doesn't sound very sweet or happy, does it, Zach?
SPEAKER_07Don't leave me now.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly. It's like it's it's uh angry and scary sounding. Really cool solo here. We'll let that play.
SPEAKER_07Woo! What kind of instrumentation we got? Here go, Mukard. With that. No, I'm asking, yeah, genuinely.
SPEAKER_03Sounds like a string section, but I think it might still be, I think it's multi-tracks of the synth, actually. It sounds synthetic to me more than it sounds like a real string section. I wondered that on the way up here, too, listening to it. Oh, that's later. Sorry. Um I love the noises though. I love the Tom Bryant of it all. Okay, so this is this is a good time to talk about this part of their process of constructing this album. So let me find. We talked about how she's very open, she's very communicative about uh you know what she does and doesn't think works for the songs. Here's how they actually're how they actually built the songs and these arrangements. Are you interested in that, Zach? Of course. So they recorded a piano and vocal track of each song to a click, then added drums. Now, this is slightly unusual because when you have full band productions like this, the standard way to do it is to record the drums first. I don't know if everybody knows that, but you would do some sort of scratch track, it's called, where the drummer would play along with maybe the whole band if you can get everybody isolated and remove those tracks, but you get a clean drum track, then build everything on top of that. John Bryan doesn't like doing that because he wants a spontaneous sounding drum track, and he also wants a drum track that plays to the song, not the song to play to the drums. Just had to let that feedback noise right there. Yeah, amazing. Um, so what they would do is record the piano and vocal track, then add the drums, and then experiment on top of that together until they arrived at what they both liked. Now, a couple cool things here. A lot of the vocals that we're hearing, I don't know for which songs, but a lot of them are the initial scratch track that she recorded when playing these songs on the piano.
SPEAKER_07They sound so raw and naturalistic, but from somebody who is so phenomenally gifted and can it feels like you're in the room with her, but you know you're not.
SPEAKER_03Yep. So a lot of these are from the first few takes. Yeah. And it's the take that it's like that's the piano and the vocal take, which I think is really, really cool. And it is more of an accomplishment production-wise, that what they build these songs into, it doesn't sound like a bunch of shit thrown on after the fact. It all really works. Like, for example, The Sound of Silence by Simon and Garfunkel that was recorded as just an acoustic and vocal track, and it didn't get any traction on the radio, and then they added all the instruments. Yeah. And great song, but I think when you listen to it, you can kind of tell that that stuff was an after-effect. Nothing on this album sounds like that to me.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, uh uh Walker, that is so fascinating. Um, and and just to kind of underscore what you're saying a little bit, I if I could, if I could quote uh from the article. Let me pause it. We're into the second track here.
SPEAKER_03That's okay. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_07Walker, if I could, just uh quote um an incredible uh this is a retrospective article um from the publication albumism. The author is uh Andy Healy, and the title of the article is Fiona Apple's When the Pawn Turns 20 Anniversary Retrospective. Uh, this was published published on November 6th, 19 uh 2019. I love this so much. I feel like it distills or speaks to a lot of what you just said. So it says Apple's songwriting prowess is front and center throughout Win the Pawn, with many sessions recorded with her at the piano as the starting point. Then, with that firmly drawn sketch, Brian would embellish and accent the details with his own multi-instrumentalist skills and those of a key group of musicians, which we didn't go through all the folks that that participate in this album are not going to, but listeners, please look it up. He goes on to say the result elevates Apple's performance, solidifying them without overshadowing them. It also gives the album a sonic consistency like you are sitting in on one session rather than a sporadic collection of performances. I love that so much for so many reasons. He calls attention to what John Bryan brings to this album production-wise, which we'll continue to talk about. He gives Fiona top because right, this Fiona Apple's album. It's not, you know, Fiona Apple by John Bryan. And it and then I love this sentence. It also gives the album a sonic consistency, like you were sitting in one session rather than a sporadic collection of performances. Because as we discussed, this was the album was recorded all over the fucking place. In some, you know, in different countries, even. And the other thing I just wanted to quickly say on what you said about adding the drums, and that I I I invoked Ham Fiston or Not, I I don't believe it was, but I invoked that this album. I I wouldn't even call it like, oh, it's her kid A or Amnesiac or something. No, because Fiona started at such a, in my opinion, Radiohead still being my favorite band, started at a higher level, I would say. Take a gander. We talked about it at what song that drums were added over a year later along with String Section. Uh it's a song off of Amnesiac. Oh, a pyramid song. Right.
SPEAKER_03And and that's one song, and that's that's I know that from listening to Ideo Talk season one.
SPEAKER_07So I don't want to get hung up on Radiohead. I just think that that's really, really cool. And I did not know that when you just you gave me that information. But I I just love that because, like you said, and I did know this, that drums are typically what you lead with, more or less, right? The rhythm tracks. And and it just it it this album is different, it's it's innovative, it's it's all these things, but it doesn't feel clunky at all in that way, right? So, anyways, yeah, I love that. And I and I do have some stuff uh I'm more on the music theory side of how the song is constructed, but I would like to let you speak uh if you have anything else first. No, go for it. So we're gonna kind of leave with this up top. It's it's really funny. I find that as much as I'm passionate about the album title, which is just one of my favorite days, I put it amongst the great debut records. I have kind of found that in studying for this, this one, um, I think it's just the way songs hit you and you they hit your ears. And I've been doing that uh a little bit more, I would say, than title, even though I know how to play a few of the songs off of title and I don't yet um uh from this album. Um but I thought I thought we could just talk a little bit about what Fiona is doing on um or rather in this song melodically. So on the bound, the song we just listened to is in the key of C major, and yet our verses are constructed um you know in terms of the chords they use as follows. So we have uh two measures of F minor, then we go to an E major sharp five, and then we go back to F minor. So can you kind of sing the melody, Walker, just on the piano? To the To on the Bound, just just as you hear the piano the verse or chorus.
SPEAKER_03The verses.
SPEAKER_00So we're Walker's going. That's the E major sharp five.
SPEAKER_07So the uh the four chord of C major, which is what the key of the song is in, is uh is an F major. Um in this case we would go with a lowercase four, so IV for our our music theories out there. Um, because we are our music theory nerds out there, because we are working in F minor. So to simplify this subdominant, which is is a term in music theory or star. Starting note is F, which is the four scale degree of C major. And don't worry, we're gonna we're gonna talk about why none of what I'm saying matters in a second. What's more interesting is the shift to E major, specifically it's E major 7 sharp 5, but we'll just say an altered E major chord, which is just to say an altered or inverted E major chord is what I had in my notes, so that's why I repeated it, right? So it's an actual an E um, it's the fifth inversion of E major. So what does this mean and why does it matter, right? To me, what I think it means is that regardless of one's level of interest or knowledge in in music theory, it's the sound that counts, right? And and to go back to that sort of technical theory side, dominant chords create a tension that listeners' ears want resolved. And by dominant chord, I mean I'm talking about that E major, which is a borrowed chord, right, Walker? Um F minor is our starting point. E major doesn't fit into that key type, correct? No, it doesn't.
SPEAKER_03Okay, I just borrowed chord was confusing.
SPEAKER_07Well we borrow a chord where we're working outside of the key signature that we set up, right? So again, just to re-reset, regardless one's level of interest or knowledge, it's the sound that counts. Dominant chords, in this case I'm talking about the E major, create tension that the listeners' ears want resolved, right? This is where we start to get into it's easy if you have any level of knowledge of music theory to try and whip out your uh uh perceived big dick, even though it's usually a smaller one, of knowledge and and taught over people's heads, but that's that's not even at all what I'm trying to do. That's why I'm poking fun at it, because I think once we start to get into we want the melody resolved, in this case we are borrowing a secondary dominant, which is that E, and dominant chords and the resolution is delayed until the chorus, right? So you hear that, right? Um, increasing ambiguity and tension. So all that to say, how a progression sounds is far more important than the theory behind it. Sure. Right? So I may have gone through that, and I don't pretend that there's going to be a bunch of theory nerds like listening to this podcast. I hope there are, and I hope there are people that don't care about that stuff. But but what I'm trying to say is that I think a lot of times for folks, maybe they they're musicians themselves. I'm not purporting to be an expert in music theory or technical analysis. I can do it, I can I can minimally write in standard notation, but that's that's not where my focus or my expertise are. I did write that from analyzing the chord progression, but what I mean to say is rather than saying the four-scale degree and a borrowed and a sharp five and all that, you hear it and you go different. Just like in our season with Radiohead and a bajillion other artists too. Tom Waits, you know, who who pick your but the resolution of it is so strong because if you're going to play around with something that's a little bit unconventional, you still it's not that you can't break convention or that uh that even that break of da da da isn't abrupt. But the where we bleed, we don't bleed, but where we lead into that chorus is actually where the resolution occurs, which is really cool. So we don't wrap up our verses because uh I don't want to make you do a guessing game walker, but our our chorus is we go back to F minor, then we go to D minor. So and and so in in in music listeners, there's something called a relative major and a relative minor, or the chord you start with and then the sad version of it. So G hits relative minor is what Walker? E minor. Exactly. That's a very logical. That one I knew. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he knows more than he's letting on. Uh but in in music to uh and oh Walker, what is the relative major of D minor? F. Exactly. But in this case, we're going F minor to D minor. So uh listeners, I'm not trying to say this no, this has never been done before, but it I think if you care about anything I just said or any of this, it doesn't just simplify it. Uh well, let me simplify it to say not dumb it down, but this is breaking air quotes around rules. We had Brad Osborne on, he said, I try not to teach rules. And I think what is so cool about this is that it strikes your ear as different, but you don't have to know any of what I just said or care about it at all because you go, oh, different. And and I think that is a is is not the distillation, but is one of them, right? Because it's dark. And an example of a I'm only saying this because it's a song that we have gone through in a previous season. Uh, those of you listening who have not heard the song, please listen to it, would be There There by a Radiohead from Halo the Thief.
SPEAKER_03Right. Why so green and lonely? I knew there was a radiohead song where you talked about the D minor, F minor.
SPEAKER_07Yes. Well, uh the the way that they're similar in terms of their melodic progression is in that song. I'm not gonna sing it. Oh, maybe I will. He says, Why so green and lonely? He starts on a B minor. B minor's relative major is D major, but he goes to D minor. So they're not they're not parallel, but what she's doing here is going minor to what would be thought of as your relative major, and she's breaking convention. I don't want to keep going on and on and on. It does strike your ear as strange, and we're gonna talk about that as we go um into the next song. It does not the same thing at all, it actually has quite a bit more going on in terms of what she's able to sing over, but I just really wanted to call attention to the sort of we're not gonna go through each song to this level of granularity with in the theory aspect, but I would say Fiona is doing a lot more of that on this album. Okay, and it's really, really, really cool because I I think the challenge for songwriters, myself included, um, for sure, the challenge I've experienced is if you have these rules in your mind, oh, relative major, relative minor, or you learn about these rules of oh, the Phrygian dominant scale, harmonic minor, melodic minor, it's cool. But it's also really cool to write stuff that's wacky from the heart. Fiona does both.
SPEAKER_03As we talked about, she's a trained pianist, so she does This is where the expression get you a girl who can do both came from. Is her doing both theory and from the heart on this album.
SPEAKER_07So I'll go ahead and stop there. But I just I was so uh I, you know, it it tickled my ear that way. I can't say I broke it down because it is a piano-driven song with a lot of other noises in it. Um, but yeah, that's that's kind of what I wanted to talk about in terms of the theory aspect, and I adore that song. Walker, your thoughts.
SPEAKER_03I I don't have any additional thoughts. I love the song. I think it's a huge statement for the opening of the album. A lot of tension, right? Yeah, and I didn't know any of that stuff, but it's like it explains kind of the feeling of unease and satisfaction that it that it provides. I mean, I think the only thing I would say that's not related to the theory is just getting back to the genre of this album. For me, you know, genres are not technical, right? It's it's like a little bit of a it's a little bit of a subjective way of categorizing things. But I think that maybe part of the reason this album speaks to me more than title, an album that I also really liked, even loved, I will say. But I like this one a lot better is because I think this is leaning more into influences that uh are not better, but are just what I'm more familiar with. I feel like this album is Fiona leaning a lot more into kind of like uh Brian Wilsony-y Baroque pop and like later era kind of white albumy Beatles arrangements and things like that. And so the late 60s and the 90s are pro and the 90s kind of more generally across the decade are probably my two favorite times for popular music or rock or alternative music. And absolutely so that's just like a kind of notable difference I hear on this one, where the other one is I think I think title is also like containing all these influences and is doing something that is it would be really reductive to call it like kind of jazz pop or something like that. But I just feel like this one is more leaning away from kind of the jazz standards influence and more into the pop and rock influence.
SPEAKER_07Well, and this song is such a great example of that because it still has that break that I'm not like that's jazz, but where it stops and where it's still hitting those beats, and and uh this last thing I'll say before we go to the next one, but I I feel like even some of the more ballady, bright, brighter songs on this album, they feel it's not that they feel more confident, they're more exciting to me, I would say, than their equivalents on title. I do think these albums are laid out a little bit the same.
SPEAKER_03And I do think, but I think they're more confident too. Because I think even the fact that she's leaning away from there are pretty songs on this album. There are, but I think that I don't know if it's conscious or not, or if it's just the brain dump of Fiona Apple of like, this is what I'm feeling and this is how it came out. Sure. But there's a lean away from the prettiness too of the music that I think displays confidence, right? Because this is going to be alienating to some people when you start the album with weird backwards synthesizers and Fiona growling is a little harder to get into than Shadow Boxer. Also a great song. Sure. Uh, should we get to the next one? Yeah. Okay. This is To Your Love.
SPEAKER_07Oh, I'm so I'm so sorry. Go ahead. Uh, this is to your love. I will say I mentioned uh very early on that this album stands kind of alone in this regard to me, where every song, I'm like, no, this is my favorite song. I would say On the Bound is a song I love. I know it's not my favorite. I would say the start of what I was talking about, where I I can't decide internally, starts with uh To Your Love.
SPEAKER_03This one might very well be my favorite too. So, Walker, I like this song. I do too. My f what my favorite song is keeps moving around the album. But this is one that I I could say no, this is my favorite. And I will let you know when we get to my favorite part of it. I mean, already starts with just such an odd doo doo doo doo doo. It's like so like the muted trumpet up and oh, the muted trumpet that she's playing. And we've known her primarily to be a piano player up to this point.
SPEAKER_07That drive strum on the ukulele you hear.
SPEAKER_03Now, Zach, lyrically, I think this one also might be another kind of like could be about a lot of things. And then we hear the vibrophone again. Very nice to hear that back. Just such a gorgeous instrument. This one lyrically feels like the title of the album feels like a clap back at the haters a little bit to me. Here's the speech you wish I'd swallow, another cue for you to fold your ears, another train of thought too hard to follow, chugging along to a song that belongs to the shifting of gears.
SPEAKER_07But it's also very earnest, Walker. I like that. That's kind of uh could be alluding to, I mean, oh of course. Could be it's a little more ominous in its illusions. But starting with this verse right here, I feel like it's not literal necessarily, but you know, there's a lineup coming. Um I mean, this is a re a re repetition of the pre-course, but please forgive me for my distance, the pain is evident in my existence. Like, you know what I'm saying? Let's it's very it's very earnest, and you know, songs are not one thing, poetry is not one thing. But I love I love the sort of alteration between direct and and maybe quite literal to maybe hearkening back to things that led to this song in her public life.
SPEAKER_03I agree, I have more to say, but please, the bridge is my favorite part, so I'm gonna let it play. So that part is so fucking cool. I love how the drums switch to playing the open snare there. You know what I'm talking about? I do, yeah. And so the percussion is weird. What she's doing, the double-tracked vocals come in. Um which is a thing on this album that occurs a lot that I adore. Yeah, but always for emphasis. There's not a lot of songs, I don't think, that are the majority of them are double-tracked vocals, or at least not in an obvious way.
SPEAKER_07No, it cuts in and out in a very, very nice way, which speaks to her how great her voice is when double-tracked.
SPEAKER_03Also the production choices, though. And I also gotta say, she uses three words in that bridge that I do not know. My Daring Do, which is D-E-R-R-I-N-G-D-O, I don't know what that is. Dance the Rigadoon, I don't know what the Rigadoon is. And then performative style or something. Type of dance. And then by the time I'm close to you, I lose my Deser D Desiderato. Desideratum, she pronounces it. Well, yeah. You know that word? Desideratum?
SPEAKER_00Well, no, but there's also a word I don't know after to break out of it when she goes, Super calibristic, Antarctica establishment and terrium.
SPEAKER_03Oh, we're ruining this song, aren't we? Well, um but I also gotta say too, one thing I love about that open snare is that I was like, oh, I wonder if they if they overdubbed that in later. But if you listen closely, I do hear because it's playing the close snare for the rest of and listeners, just so you know, it's like that sound, that kind of like hitting paper sound that you get from a snare drum, that is from uh small metal chains that are on the bottom of a snare drum that you then uh tighten up up against the drum itself so it gives it that that kind of thrashy sound that we associate with a snare. When it sounds like a very high tom drum, is when you've taken that down, right? And so that's the open snare. I may have explained that. No, no, you did pretty good.
SPEAKER_07That's more or less how somebody will say, I'll tune my snare.
SPEAKER_03Right. Yeah. Um you're right. But so I was like, well, surely he's not stopping in the middle of this take and opening the snare and then closing it back up. So I wonder if they just were like, oh yeah, let's just dub in different percussion for this part. But I listened, and during a couple fills, you can hear the open snare get hit. So I'm like, Yeah, this motherfucker, this tricky motherfucker has two snares on this drum set, Zach. Your thoughts.
SPEAKER_07Oh no, I love that. I I mean, Walker, I I I I love the level. Yeah, I don't know if it's uh uh listening to it with a particular type of headphone or whatever, or I just uh subconsciously don't listen to that level of granularity on some of the production choices. I know I love the way this album is produced, so uh yeah, I just whether right or wrong, and I suspect you're right, uh, I'm not gonna contest that, but it does lead me to a question I wanted to ask you before I get into my analysis of the song on a different side. You know, you talked a little bit about in title that just some of the percussion choices felt a little bit excessive, essentially. Uh, in title. Not a bunch. It wasn't like a huge complaint, but you said sometimes you think there's too much drums. This album is decidedly more percussively driven, and I don't want to talk about all the songs in front of us, but I it seems to me like you're very positive on the amount of percussion. Uh well, I mean, you can answer if you want to or not about the songs in front of us and those one two just behind us. What do you what do you think?
SPEAKER_03Did you really enjoy it? I'm glad you asked because this album actually made me realize something about the last album. Okay, which is I thought I was responding not as positively to some of the arrangements on title. And it was I and and whether it was percussion or something else, I felt like when I had a note, it was just like it's a little too busy. I'd like to hear a little more of her vocals and piano and some of these choices uh in the arrangements distract from it a little bit. Sure. Listening to how fully fleshed out almost all the songs on this album are and how much instrumentation there is. Yeah, they're really busy. They're really busy. And that last song, for example, she's playing the piano, but it is not a piano forward song. No, it's not front in the mix at all. No, the guitars and and everything like muted trumpet, as we talk about it. Yeah, muted trumpet. Um, guitars are more forward in the mix of the song than the piano. Okay. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Right? All that to say, I think that what I actually don't like as much on title is the way it is mixed. And I think that John Bryan just makes choices that I like more with where he places things in the mix because and that him and Fiona collaboratively making these choices about how to arrange the songs. She just probably had more control over this album. They talk about another thing about their production process of arranging these songs that they talk about is uh it's very tonal and feel-based. So he said her feeling. I feel that when I listen to it. Right. Yeah. And and and that doesn't mean that this wasn't part of the process, but it's just him and Fiona clearly have a process with each other that maybe had not come into full fruition with her and Andy Slater, who produced the last album. You know what I mean? People get better at articulating what they want, right, you know, for their for their albums. But he would say that she would give him feedback like, okay, this section of the song is remorseful and this sound doesn't evoke that for me, or and here's why. It's too bright in this way, or it's too jaunty. So they're making the arrangements based on that, and I think it just makes all the songs sound better. It is really busy, but like, for example, in that first song, there's a lot of him jamming the fuck out on the Chamberlain, right? Which he also does in Criminal, but in Criminal, it felt a little bit distracting to me. And in this, I'm like, this perfectly serves the vibe of this song. No, I agree. I think it's mixing and arrangement, and her and John Bryan together being in total control of those decisions that makes me like it more than it's like there's too much perc. I think I was probably reading it wrong that it's like there's too much percussion or this or that.
SPEAKER_07Well, you had leftover of our Radiohead season uh still in you where Nigel was just starting to dominate with like, let's make all the drums like 30 tracks long. Maybe so.
SPEAKER_03Maybe I'm still a little like percussion sensitive from like, you know, from uh today tomorrow's modern boxes and Adams for Peace. But yeah.
SPEAKER_07Um well, you know, real quick before I just go on to the a couple things I wanted to highlight about that song is I God, I love what you're saying so much about the relationship between uh a positive, not contentious relationship between an artist and their producer. And I and I love too, it's not as if I need permission from Fiona to talk about the things I love John Bryan is doing, but I I do love that that quote that she uh that she made that I I referenced earlier, where I'm not gonna read the whole thing again, but she said, um, essentially she said, I think I figured out what I'm good at. I want to laugh again. And then she said, I write pretty well, I'm a good singer, and I can play my songs well enough on piano. You're good at everything else. And when she says yours, she's saying what she said to John Bryan, so I think that's how we should proceed. And if we're ever off base, I'll let you know. I now I understand in creative pursuits, things get it's it's it's not the business world. And by the way, people behave very poorly in the business world too. I just mean that on film sets and maybe in the studio, it's you know, there's there's decorum, but you know, so there's not an HR department. No, well, sure, emotions run high, right? And you both want the same thing, but often, you know, your vision of that. What you described to me and what I read a little bit about too, but and I'm really putting this in now because of what I hear in those first two songs, is a lot of the way the Beatles and George Martin would describe their collaborative process, which is one of a lot of adoration and respect. And and and and I think about like Revolver, the way the way George Martin, when he would reflect back on it, it's like he was older than them, he was seen as the father figure, but he was so into these kids experimenting and sponsoring that. Now, it's not a one-for-one, but I just love that I I it's still a Fiona Apple album. Sure. But I I hear so much of John Bryan um who did not produce the first one, but I hear a lot of those things, like the kind of uh phrases or noises and so forth, but they're just better placed. And and then the last little comparison I want to make, just because of those two songs, uh, I want to say it's Walker's favorite Elliott Smith album. I hear a lot of the choices made in From A Basement on the Hill. Totally. In that, and and listeners, please listen to that album. John Bryan did not produce it, but he was heavily involved in the production of it. I think about in the opening track or in in in anyways, it's a phenomenal album, and I just love hearing that that kind of crossover. Um, but unless you have anything to add, I wanted to talk a little bit more about like what she's doing melodically.
SPEAKER_03Just that desideratum or desideratum as she says it.
SPEAKER_07Is it an old wooden ship?
SPEAKER_03Uh is an old, old wooden ship. It uh means something that is needed or wanted.
SPEAKER_07Oh, I love that.
SPEAKER_03Okay, Desideratum. Desidere tomb. Yeah, go ahead. And then uh I'm real excited to get to this next one.
SPEAKER_07Me too, too. And uh we'll we'll um like I say, we'll move at a little brisker pace, but I I just had to highlight this melodically. So um so on the song to your love, what we just listened to, continuing to build on uh, you know, kind of what what what we were just discussed in in the previous song before that, the opener on the bound. So to your love is in the key of F minor, right? And as we we listeners will remember, they're an F minor features prominently in the song on the Bound, but it's actually in the key of C major. So in the verses of this song To Your Love, we more or less hover within the uh an E minor and F major in the verse, right? So not crazy, not unheard of, or whatever, just two chords butted up against one another. Then the pre-chorus alternates to F minor to C minor. So this is a modulation, right? Because the natural key to modulate when you're in F minor would be a C minor, and then the chorus is F minor, and then so on the two y'all, that struck my ear as I was like, oh, that sounds very chromatic. And chromaticism listeners on a guitar or even in piano is just you know, normally you don't go white key and then the white key next to it, you know, without any break in between. There's generally going to be a space in between. So when you hear something like that, that's like uh those are all half-step alterations. And without getting bogged down too much, it's uh F minor, F minor over B, F minor over B flat, F minor over A flat, which is just a chromatic chord progression. And this creates a Phrygian sound. Walker, I know you love Phrygians. I love it. Phrygian love it. Right, because Phrygian listeners without, and I don't I don't think this is being rude or anything, but Phrygian more or less has a what we would ascribe to kind of a Middle Eastern flavor to it. Arabian. That's a defensive song from Aladdin, but uses the Phrygian dominant scale. Um, and I'm being serious though, that that is a good reference point of a song in Phrygian, or even Burn the Witch from Radiohead. Now, this leads into so an incredibly constructed song melodically, is what I'm trying to say. Um I'm not expecting anybody to learn theory from listening to this podcast and and quickly talking over what what talking about what she's doing here. But the uh I do want to say, like, listeners, if you're trying to like learn your scales and modes on a guitar or on piano, this is a fantastic song to practice melodic minor, harmonic minor, and phrygian over. And those are just scale types, and all those are just patterns. Now, songwriters like Fiona Apple or Johnny Greenwood or or whomever, or Stevie Wonder, they they they those are all uh three individuals I know are are musically educated and trained, and in your musical education and training, you learn the seven modes, right? So I know they know them. But songwriters don't generally set out to employ these concepts because you more or less have to learn them so you can forget them, right? Is the thing. And then there are people that you know will say they know nothing about music theory. Paul McCartney, Tom York come to mind, but that's not actually true. They just might not read and rant standard notation. But this is such an amazing song because it's employing three more or less unconventional scale types or harmony-driven things. And and I think just like the first song, it strikes your ear that way. This is not an everyday pop song. This is not in the angel. I'm not saying that song isn't melodically interesting. It's different. And this leads me, um, everything I just said, and then we can go on to the next song into sort of it's not a thesis, it's more of a question that I want to ask Walker and the audience is do singers who don't play an instrument experience a ceiling and their melodic abilities? And I did a little table right here and I said yes and no. So in the yes column, I would say Anthony Keatis, singer of the red hot chili peppers. I think now I know you're not a fan, but I'm just saying the musicianship is incredible, but by a ceiling, I mean if you do not know how to play an instrument. Oh, I also put Bono, Bono knows how to play the guitar very basically. If you don't play an instrument and you don't have the convention of hey, I can't do an F minor an F minor to a D minor, like we talked about, because that's breaking a rule. That's taking the relative major to the relative minor, and well, you can. You can do anything. You just have to kind of know how to break the rules. Exactly. And I think that's I'm not sitting here saying and that um because I have a lot in the column of of and I'm not gonna list them all, of singers who don't play an instrument who I do believe sing over some of the most dissonant weird melodies. But it's a question or James Keenan in there? No, but I'll add him to that list. Um but it's a question though that I think is really worth pondering because I'm not saying that singing isn't an instrument, but I do think that the best singers, some in my my opinion, are ones that either that maybe they're not great piano or guitar. And I'm specifically thinking of strings because you learn about relative major and relative minor. This is not a question that I think I have the answer on, because in the column of no, that doesn't make sense of great singers who sing over really, really odd chord progressions is Stevie Nicks, Maynard James Keenan, uh Julian Caesablancas, who has since learned how to play the guitar, but the strokes, uh their first two albums, by the way, listeners, he didn't have any understanding of piano or guitar. But he wrote he maybe piano, maybe minimal piano.
SPEAKER_03Steve May wrote he writes the music for the songs. He doesn't write the parts, but uh that's like the strokes process, is my understanding, is he writes demos on like the piano or guitar of all the songs and then gives them to the band.
SPEAKER_07That that uh so you're right. So but that um really, really, really started within Room on Fire. Okay, and I think that you hear so much more, and he did know how to play the piano, so I'm I'm not trying to say um, but he expanded his musical repertoire, is all I mean to say. Starting on first impressions of Earth. Okay, which maybe you like that album less or not. It's certainly musically more advanced. Yeah, yeah. And then Gerard Way, singer of My Chemical Romance, uh haters, go ahead. The the particularly the Black Parade, none of those songs are conventional in their construction of the chords. And then a person who's come up many, many times, Cedric Pixler Zavala from the Mars Volta. None of those songs make sense musically, and I'm not just talking about how chaotic they are, I'm talking about the chord structure. So I'm gonna stop there, but it is interesting to think about of the what playing an instrument gives you, so you know what rules you can break. So and I and I'm just that's all. So we'll we'll keep going, but I think it's an interesting thought experiment.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I I love it. I love it, and thank God Fiona Apple did play an instrument. Well, I think that's an instrument. Oh, the piano.
SPEAKER_07I'm sorry, I think that's what makes these songs so interesting, is Renology on that side.
SPEAKER_03It's not hard. This is Land. This is Land. Starts very understatedly. That underwater effect on the percussion is really cool.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, and if title was what you're familiar with, since this is only our second album, you'd be like, oh, I'm in for a slower morality song, aren't you? And I love that kind of warbling sound. It sounds like if you have like a piece of sheet metal or something that you're gonna do. That's what I meant by underwater effect.
SPEAKER_03We got Chad Smith guesting on this song at top. The drums come in real hot, don't they?
SPEAKER_08And then when I think of it, my fingers turn a face. I never did anything to human.
SPEAKER_03Zach, is this one a little bit the sequel to some of the themes explored in Solen Girl, but maybe you know, kind of a more rock and roll take.
SPEAKER_01Go starning, Martin. You took my point.
SPEAKER_03Is that what you're gonna say? Because I mean it does feel like this song is like addressing sexual violence and certainly addressing like uh a woman's place in like modern society, but but maybe from more of a place of anger than hell. Sadness.
SPEAKER_07Hell yeah. I mean, I love I love the vulnerability of the line in Sol and Girl of like washed me ashore, took my pearl, you know, whatever. Yeah, yeah. And and we talked about it's all subjective, blah blah yada yada. It it does have a very specific uh visual evocation to me of you know, a loss of innocence, let's just say. This one. Yeah, I mean, it well, I want to let this I never did anything to you, man. I never did anything to you. Also that string section.
SPEAKER_01Okay, right here.
SPEAKER_07Get off me now, baby.
SPEAKER_01I mean, that's that's that's an inversion, right? It's like, get the fuck off me.
SPEAKER_03Well, and also just I mean, obviously, the imagery of this song is called limp, and it won't be long till you'll be lying limp in your own hands. Yeah, bunch of really cool percussion here.
SPEAKER_07This is very Chad Smithy choice. So this strikes me as something I would hate on any other album. It's so bold of a break, you know. It's like ba-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. It could be a record scratch. Wick a wicka, wicker, wick.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, do do do do do do do do do. Um John Bryan described the process of coming up with this bass line after she played it on the piano for him, and and her just being like, oh yeah, that's the exact feeling I'm going for. So this is like another area where them being able to communicate in ideas, right? Now, I have no doubt that if Fiona Apple has or wanted to pick up a bass guitar that she could find her way around it. But that's what's so cool about John Bryan is the dude plays fucking everything. Right. So I love that she can communicate emotionally what she wants the song to sound like, and then he can come back, pick the right instrument, and be like, oh, like this.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, so cool. I I agree. Oh, it's there's that double tracking a little bit, which call me crazy, but she's right up against the mic, though. Yep. And that's where you feel that sense of anger and yeah. We're gonna let it keep playing at this point.
SPEAKER_03That's great. Uh Walker Light. Finally come up for air on this next song. Love Ridden. Limp is such a good song. All I was gonna say about the uh just kind of intensity of the imagery of, you know, the title Limp, and it won't be long before you'll be lying limp in your own hands. That's another way to say go fuck yourself, isn't it? Which I also love.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, and it's a little bit emasculating too, you know. Yeah, limp, you know, like uh That song is just like, yeah, go jerk off, loser.
SPEAKER_03Right. Now we finally kinda come up for air here on Love Ridden.
SPEAKER_04Nobody sees when you are lost.
SPEAKER_03And this to me feels like the spiritual sequel to Never Is a Promise. Absolutely. I gotta say, Van Dyke Park's amazing arranger. We talked about him. Um, John Bryan is very much like taking that mantle of just like does the most non-intuitive but perfect arrangements. I the string section is just absolutely gorgeous on this song, is what I'm saying in a very long-winded way, is that.
SPEAKER_07No, but I love what you said though about spiritual sequel because it's like it doesn't feel derivative. Like, oh, I have to I have to sequence I think this album is so brilliantly sequenced because it it we do really have kind of like three bangers in a row, right? Yeah. But see, then even this is like abrasive, this bridge. Yeah, like you said, there it it does feel like a spiritual sequel. And we got my vocal part coming up.
SPEAKER_03Oh, and there's a musical break I want us to make sure to listen to. So, yeah, so I I love, I adore that Brian Wilson just pop in to the studio because that was the most Beach Boys ass breakdown right there.
SPEAKER_07Exactly though, but I in terms of a spiritual sequel, it's like it it does feel at home with it, but I feel like the the choice they're just more mature. The choices are more mature, and I don't want to give that credit to John Bryan or you know, over Fiona, certainly not, but I but I do feel like the collaboration is just firing on all cylinders. And, you know, we talked a lot about not demeaning or or calling attention to excessively, like you know, how how young this individual was. I just feel like she's more confident and developed in the choices she's making. Yeah, and and I don't want to get John Bryan.
SPEAKER_03Also, yeah, she's she is the ripe old age of 22 at this point in this album. So still an incredibly just like mature command of her instrument, both the piano and the voice and the pen.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, but I feel but I feel like where the maturity is really tangible, where I do just want to ascribe it purely to her, is songs are not so much one thing. This is a ballad, this is a you know, this or that. And I'm not saying that t title that that's the case, but yeah, I just feel like the the the bravery is just a little higher. And the bravery is higher because she's what think about she's had a tour, she's been insulted, she's been called this and that, you know?
SPEAKER_03So yeah, yeah, so cool. Yeah, this album has a thicker skin. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's still vulnerable in that. Yeah, it's not callous. Yeah, it's it's still like the first one is kind of a daydream of a boy. I don't know, I don't know. I don't know if I like this as I'm saying it. But like the first one is like, as a debut does, it's kind of like asking for an acceptance that this one isn't. Now, I still think the debut asks for acceptance by presenting some of the most amazingly fully realized song a person of that or any age could possibly be presenting to the public. But it's just this one seems completely unconcerned with how it's received.
SPEAKER_07Now, Walker, would you say Love Ridden, the song we're listening to right now, is a spiritual sequel, or is this kind of a wholly new song?
SPEAKER_03Oh, this is paperback. Oh, I'm so sorry, yeah. Love Ridden was the last song. I think this is probably the most radio friendly song on the album. Uh it's very nice sounding. Again, I get a very like pet soundy vibe from this.
SPEAKER_07Oh, I I love the way it just it's it I do agree it's radio friendly, and I do, but it just kind of the way I describe it, is that it it kind of it kind of rolls. It rolls really nicely. It like has just such a beautiful ebb and flow, and obviously the other songs did too. And and not because it's clearly in a more major key. I just I I just I feel like even the most radio friendly song, which I would say is paperbag, uh uh, has has a bounciness to it, but this is what I quickly wanted to highlight on it. Uh Fiona Apple sings kind of not on all her songs, but on this album and on title as well. Kind of quiet, where you feel like, oh, this is just like a hum, she has a beautiful voice. Not so. This song is so hard to sing. And and not because I got the vocals. It's it's just it's it's hard to describe, but it has such a bouncy, nice rhythm. But you run out of breath quickly, and it's I think it just goes to show it's so funny to me that she's under or uh untrained, so to speak, or whatever, not classically trained, because it really, really comes from her diaphragm. Yeah, even though it's in a low register. Your thoughts on this song?
SPEAKER_03I adore this song. It's so I I love the what I get from the lyrics hunger hurts but starving works. Is it's like wanting things is so painful that I'll just fucking starve myself, is yeah, how I take that. Also, I'm not saying this to be funny or crass, but like her weight was the subject of a lot of scrutiny in the media too. So I and continue to be. Yes, and so it wouldn't surprise me at all if she in an album that does seem to be kind of like spitting back at some of the things that have been said about her, if that metaphor for yearning was chosen intentionally to kind of uh deride all the talk about her body.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I love this horn arrangement here at the end. Yeah. Let's let it play for a sec. This feels very George Martiny in terms of the arrangement and production.
SPEAKER_07Not Brian Wilson either. I could see I could hear this in a pet sounds a little bit perhaps.
SPEAKER_03Yes, but this just that sounds like a very like Paul McCartney, like they would have a nice little home section at the end, you know. But like just super tastefully arranged.
SPEAKER_07Would you pause it, please, Walker? I know, I know we're gonna let the music roll, but keep going. I have one thought on paper bag, so keep going.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, uh all I wanted to say is that song in my listening to this album over and over again for the last few weeks, that is the song that made me realize it was the mixing in production that uh I just not even dislike on the last album that I just think is better on this album because I was like, you would never really listen to this song and have the first thing you think be, Wow, there's a lot going on. There's a lot of instruments, but there's a lot going on. There are a lot of instruments, but John Bryan just very deftly, tastefully weaves in that uh that kind of telephone effect on the drum sound is not overpowering, but it puts it nice and in the background. So you you're tapping your toe, but you don't really think of it as a song with full drums, but it is a song with a full drum kit. That ending I think maybe brushes. Maybe so. Yeah, so and that ending with that horn arrangement. I could really understand the temptation for the horns to be big, but they're there the whole song, they're in the background the whole time. So that's it. I just really, really love the production choices, and it made me realize that John Bryan being in the control booth is what makes some of the arrangement choices lesser on title.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, no, no, no, a hundred percent. And the only thing I I love everything you just said, uh the only thing I wanted to say on the choice of paper bag being used in the film Bridesmaids when um Listeners, if you haven't seen Bridesmaids in a while, or or gosh, I haven't seen it, uh 2011 uh uh you know, female-led uh rom com, just a terrific movie. I know though that Kristen Wigg, who I adore, is a huge fan of Fiona Apple. And the scene that it's used in Walker is uh the uh one of the elements of that film is that she had a cupcake business that that went out of business and it's uh uh a montage in which she is still she still has a passion for m creating dessert, artisan desserts or whatever, and she's making this beautifully constructed cupcake. And Kristen Wig, I I just I just wonder Kristen Wigg is somebody that has experienced a little bit of uh similar to what you were talking about, like shame about her body for being a very thin person. I mean not shame, but people are concerned to a point that's offensive. Um it's like that's not your business, you know. Um uh and and I love that scene and I love the placement of paper bag in it because it really works. It's not a happy song, but it's not melancholy. And and and then it the scene ends in which she takes like a giant, unsexy bite of the beautiful cupcake she made for herself. And I just love it because it's like hunger hurts, uh, but I want him so bad, oh it kills. It goes with the theme of that movie. Listeners go out and watch it, but also just literally hunger hurts, maybe an allusion to if you have a disorder of sorts or something like that. Which Fiona Apple was bluntly on the record as having. Absolutely. And I'm not saying Kristen Wake chose her for that reason. I just love it. It's placement. We can go to the next song. Um Zach, this is a mistake. Not your favorite, though, right?
SPEAKER_03This song is another one of the no, this is my favorites for me. I got a lot.
SPEAKER_07I got a Do you love this one? Well, this is what I talked about. I think Walker, I think this is my favorite song in the album. And it reminds me of a hodgepodge of so many influences. So are you familiar with the band Air? Or the the soundtrack to Virgin Suicides? I am. Do you hear do you hear that a little bit? I totally hear that. And and that's the one.
SPEAKER_03Did you hear the piano just kick in?
SPEAKER_07Yes. Um, this song I'm confident to say, I think just because of the blend of choices and influences while being wholly unique, and her vocals. There's a part coming up that I will be quiet for. Where she goes more or less into her falsetto. Walker. Okay, I love this. Um, I just want to get this out of top. When I have tried to write songs in the past, I've tried to write songs like this subconsciously. Not not like Fiona Apple's a mistake. I just the melody and what she's able to do. With it. I'm like, this sounds like a song I would try to write. Now, when I learned to play a radiohead song, I'm like, I just wouldn't have this in me.
unknownI'm gonna fuck it up again.
SPEAKER_07I love that. But just the du like, it's it's I I don't know what I'm trying to say. It's just have you ever looked back on a song that you've written and been like, oh, I was kind of trying to do this? I get that from this song a lot. That's all I have to say.
SPEAKER_03So this song explores a theme that I think becomes more common in Fiona Apple's work as her career goes on. Sure. Which is celebrating, as I put before, kind of the messiness of like even the things I did that I wouldn't do again made me who I am. I also think this might be like a little bit of an early, like anti-slut shaming anthem. You know, because I mean make a mistake. Exactly. I don't think that mistake just means like a sexual mistake, but I do think that that is a part of this song. And I love the lyric too of uh So I'm gonna fuck it up again, I'm gonna do another detour, unpave my path. And if you want to make sense what you're looking at me for, I'm no good at math. I love that. I love that too. Because I very much relate-I'm a Barbie, I'm not good at math.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, she's she's poking fun at that, I think.
SPEAKER_03Yes, and I think also Well, I guess I took it a different way. I like that. I think I just thought it as more as like, what I'm doing doesn't have to make sense. Okay. But I like what you're saying too. And it could be choice. It could be both. Yeah, John Bryan, the filter on this guitar. John Lennon much? This feels like This is very sexy Sadie.
SPEAKER_07This is sexy Sadie. This is this is John in his back because John wasn't not a speedy guitar player. George, George and Paul could solo faster and better than John could, but the choices he would make in Happiness is a Warm Gun, Sexy Sadie, I mean. Just and I love everything you're saying, but around the year of this no, not around the year of this release, there was a Barbie that had a voice box, Barbie TM. Um there's a movie out right now, go see it, it's a great commercial. Um there was a Barbie that had a voice box, and The Simpsons uh made fun of this.
SPEAKER_03I just watched, we watched that episode here at your house the other day. Oh really? Yeah. Lisa versus Malbu Stacy.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Or I mean sorry, is that the name of the fake doll? Yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07There was a Barbie that had a voice box that said, Math is hard. And and I'm not pretending Fiona was like, fuck that. Of course. Oh, I love her falsetto here. Or we may have missed it, but I love what she's doing with that.
SPEAKER_03It builds into such a crescendo here.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, let's just let it play. Fuck that Barbie is my point.
SPEAKER_03The way the guitar matches it. But I do, I do think though, that this song is a celebration of kind of like the ill logic of going with your feelings.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I don't think Fiona is literally being like, hey, I can't do math. Do you think that that's what she's trying to do?
SPEAKER_07No, no, no, of course not. I think that it's like, it's like, I feel like it's like the cover of the album, like I was saying, where she's smiling, it's cute. She's not, I don't feel like the emotions conveyed are meant to be like, hey, look at how smiley and cute I am. I think it's just a great, ironic uh sort of placement of that, you know?
SPEAKER_03Well, I mean, another Maya Angelou work, her hero is called And Still I Rise. I feel like that's kind of a statement of this album. Yeah. Is just like, well, everybody has uh talked shit about me non-stop for the last three years. But like, here's a perfect album. Now I just have to say that song um really speaks to like why I'm a hairdryer a little bit on this interview.
SPEAKER_07Oh, totally.
SPEAKER_03Sorry, keep going. I mean, like, the sentiments of Fiona's music connect with me so much, and none more than that. Of the idea of I am intentionally doing something that I know is bad for me, but those things make me who I am, and I don't want any shit from you about it. Just uh that really speaks to me, Zach.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I think that I've made a life on that ethic. No, no, but it's like um for you. It's like when you're a smoker, right? You know, it's like the in in in the I would imagine the lifetime of our audience, we've always known that cigarettes are bad for you, right? But sometimes you just need a cigarette. You know, or whatever, and and it's like you just need to do what's bad for you to like help you out to to quote unquote feel better. I'm not defending the smoking of cancer stick.
SPEAKER_03I don't know. I don't, you know. That was a pitch that Pete Campbell did on Mad Men. Do you watch Mad Men?
SPEAKER_07Uh you know, I watched the first uh how many seasons did it have?
SPEAKER_03Seven. Well, six, but the last one was split in two. Right, cop in the screen.
SPEAKER_07Um, yeah, you know, I think I watched up through season four. Whatever season Bet Betty maybe gained some weight, uh, that was the season I stopped watching. You were like, pfft. No, I'm gonna go. I didn't turn on this show to look at batches. No, no, no, no, no. I just remember that uh that was when I was still like bittorranting things and I couldn't get more episodes than I don't know. I bet it's worth going back to.
SPEAKER_03Oh my god, it's such a great show. Um So I know Pete, though. Yeah, but Pete, well it's in season one or two, they're trying to they're they're trying to fold in this the fact that the public now knows cigarettes are poisonous into their advertising for Lucky Strike. And Pete Campbell's pitch is so cigarettes are dangerous, cars are dangerous, smoke your cigarette. You still have to get where you're going. And Don really hates it and rips him a new ass.
SPEAKER_07Is Pete the one who uh impregnates uh Piggy?
SPEAKER_03Yes, and is married to Alice and Bree.
SPEAKER_07Oh, bummer, what a bummer. That would that would be such a bummer to be married to Alice and Bree.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Anyways, uh hideous woman.
SPEAKER_07A hideous woman.
SPEAKER_03Well, let's talk about this song, Zach. This is fast as fast as you can. Tell me what you think about this song.
SPEAKER_07I liked it. I'm glad that we talked over it, though, because it's a good song, but uh we needed a little break.
SPEAKER_03Um I love this song. This song fucking rules. This is the most manic sounding song in the album. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is a tempo that we haven't heard a lot yet, but we will hear a lot more from Fiona. No, but I love it. That's a little preview.
SPEAKER_07No, but I love it. Like this song, this album is the with the sequencing, it does ease you into like, hey, you're getting a faster Fiona. Or faster tempo songs, rather, right?
SPEAKER_03So yeah, I love it. Great drumming. And is this a little bit, it's singing, but is this a little bit of the return of Fiona Rapple? Absolutely.
SPEAKER_07And I love these breaks throughout the whole album that she does. They don't ever feel too abrupt. And if they are abrupt, they're they're needed.
SPEAKER_03It's cool, it breaks up the song. Zach, I want to give you another little factoid about these recording sessions. Yeah. You talked about I don't know if you use this word, but the like kind of intimacy of the sound on here that you feel in the room, even though these songs are very carefully constructed and were overdubbed over a period of uh many, many months. Um John Bryan doesn't record demos. So there's no demo. He he says he doesn't believe in demos.
SPEAKER_07Well, they exist, John Bryan, so you can not believe in them, but they're that's true. I think ethically he doesn't believe.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, he doesn't believe. You show him a demo, he says, what's that? I'm looking at air. Um he doesn't do demos as a practice because he thinks that like the first take is what you start from. Right. And that if you do a demo and then you that if you do a demo and you love what you get there, that you're gonna spend the whole session trying to recapture the magic that you had on the first thing. So you should just start there. And I think that that also creates a real immediacy, excuse me, to these recordings. Um so again, we're getting a lot of first, second, and third vocal takes. And I think there's a real moment. It's fucking awesome. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07No, no, I love everything you're saying, and I know I cut you off. I just think that's a good thing. No, that's it.
SPEAKER_03It's just there's no demos. So it's like they start there's a real spontaneity that they captured in the studio here, which I think tempers the fact that these songs are so overdubbed and keeps them from getting like stale.
SPEAKER_07No, I I no, and I love that, and I love uh on the topic of John Bryan and and his uniqueness. Do you remember at the end of Criminal that phrase that you don't love? And I mean who knows, but that did feel like a John Bryan edition. That crazy organ or Rhodes electric piano solo at the end there that that does feel an Aphryan flavor is my favorite part of the song, A Fast As You Can. Yeah. I'm not saying that like I will skip ahead to that. I just it it's so earned and so interesting. That's all, and it does feel like a John Bryan choice. Who knows which one of them played it, but I love it. And it reminded me of that part in Criminal that you weren't so hot on.
SPEAKER_03I don't think Fiona plays other stuff on these albums. She does later. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, she sings and plays the piano. And it's not because she can't also improvise on the other instruments.
SPEAKER_07No, no, but it feels like a John Bryan choice and addition. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And every and I love it.
SPEAKER_07I just I I it's nuts. And I love it.
SPEAKER_03I I just almost I just kind of get the impression from the way that they talk about their process that that's not where her interests lie. Her interests lie in writing the songs. Walker, this is a close tie for my favorite. Zach? I don't know why you gotta come in here and copy my ass. It's the way things are, Walker. Because this is my favorite song. This is your definitive. None of it's definitive, but this is in contention with to your love. It's either to your love and that or this.
SPEAKER_07See, I would put a mistake in the way things are. Oh, I forgot about a mistake!
SPEAKER_03It's either to your love, you mistake or this.
SPEAKER_07God, why uh but this she never not never.
SPEAKER_03She doesn't usually sing in this vocal register that she is here.
SPEAKER_07No, but I it's so earnest. I feel like I could picture her on a stage with a beat like once.
SPEAKER_03Zach, look up on YouTube Fiona Apple freaking out. It's footage of her and her band playing this song, and she is dancing her ass off and not in an un York-like fashion. It's like, this is odd, but I love it. You know, it's um, and it's like, it's very like getting slain in the spirit.
SPEAKER_01Well, yes, Walker, this is Pentecostal.
SPEAKER_07If you want to fall to my knees and go, ah, you know, and put my arms up and tear my clothes. But like, it's it's so.
SPEAKER_03I love it. I it's to me, Zach, it is not a surprise that this is possibly our favorite because I also think this is an incredibly figure eight sounding song.
SPEAKER_07Walker, I was thinking that, but I was like, but then I can't match the vocals because Elliot knew how to sing for him. He was not a great. Yeah, but he but not a great voice in the technical. So from a basement with I love how muffled the guitar, it's like right up against the amp.
SPEAKER_03Well, because it's very the piano is kind of honky tonky piano with these weird kind of angry dissonant John Lennon guitar parts on it. So John.
SPEAKER_07It's so John.
SPEAKER_04Oh, this is good.
SPEAKER_03This is my favorite song. I'm I'm throwing it down. It's this a mistake into your love.
SPEAKER_07Well, the rhythm of her of her voice, it's not Fiona Rapp Bull, but it's like it's like she's like she's like the little dot in those songs, you know, and like really Disney movies. It's like her voice is that precise.
SPEAKER_03Oh, there you go. By this point in the album, like, I'm my sentiments are best expressed in a quote from Waiting for Guffman. I'm loving it so much that I like wanna be in it. So I'm like the guy, I never remember that actor's name.
SPEAKER_01Alright, he's so great.
SPEAKER_03Hilarious character actor, but the guy who plays the pharmacist in Waiting for Guffman who was uh working the day he would have auditioned, and so he's just a super fan.
SPEAKER_07He's Parker Posey's husband in Best and Show.
SPEAKER_03Yes, and uh and part of the uh no, wait, I'm mixing him up anyway. Yes. Uh, but at the end, so he's like reduced to being a super fan. It also seems like he's kind of in love with Christopher Guest's character, Corky, but uh he's talking about how much he loves the show, and at one point he just nakedly goes, God, I wish I was in this show. That's how I feel at this point in the album. Well, like I wish I could do this, I wish I made this, I wish I could like be in this atmosphere permanently. It's so good. God, I wish I was in this show, Zach.
SPEAKER_07Remember when the balloons fall from the sky at the end of the play and when you freak off that? Well, but he Walker, he's so delighted by the surprise of the balloons.
SPEAKER_03It's so great. Corky can sing and dance and write, and there's only or what, sing and dance and act, and there's only one other person that could do all that, and that's Barbara Streisand's hand. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Who's great? And can't do all those things.
SPEAKER_03She used to be able to, yeah. Oh, a little bit of ageism from your host Zach Glenn. She's not a nice lady. Has she outlived her usefulness for you, Zach? She's not a nice person.
SPEAKER_01I don't know that I've ever heard about Barbara Streisand that she's a nice person.
SPEAKER_03She has a really high opinion of herself. Yeah, I mean, kind of definitionally a diva, right? Yes.
SPEAKER_07Oh, Walker, she's still pissed. This this album doesn't let up. Like it could slow down. Zach, I know. I know. But I'm just saying, I just love it. It's like it's not that he don't give a shit about it.
SPEAKER_03A lot more cusses on this album, too. And they are well placed. We even got a big F word earlier.
SPEAKER_07Well, that's what I love and I'm not saying that title is like submissive or diminutive or anything, but this uh But this one is though, it's not in revolt to it, but it's just kind of like it it's a different it's it's a yin yang. It's the yin to the yang or whatever, in a way.
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm. I think it's just like not. Yeah, I I do.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I just think that like done what I could, but well, okay, like title is speaking to a lot of that's too polarizing to say yin yang, but please continue.
SPEAKER_03I don't, yeah, I mean I don't think it's like an it stands in any kind of opposition to title, but I just think that the person writing these songs has been through a lot of additional experiences and a lot of additional negative ones.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And also, are these songs about David Blaine?
SPEAKER_07They better uh well they could they could be. Uh I didn't know Walker, I did not know that David Blake. I mean, I don't mean all of them.
SPEAKER_03I mean the breakup ones. Oh, I know.
SPEAKER_07I I I tend to no, I'm gonna be serious. I tend to think not because like we talked about in title, uh one of the articles, I believe it was the one written by Beth Weingarner, pointed out that Fiona had said per her own admission that she had never been in a relationship. So I like to think that Yes, they are, you know, for sure. Uh it seems like she had experienced some heartbreak in relationship, but I I I feel like it's more an amalgamation of sort of what she'd experienced, but also what she's always been great at writing. I think as you said, you know, uh thank you and fuck you very much or whatever. I they do feel a little more personal in a way. In a way, because of what the media torment she'd experienced and stuff, but can I just interrupt real quick?
SPEAKER_03Please, please, please. Right here. Let's just rewind slightly the way this kicks back in.
unknownFucking go.
SPEAKER_03Fucking go. Reminds me a little bit of uh of a certain bad boy we're a fan of Tom York starting lyrics with fucking. Shit on shit. What would it fucking come on and break the door down?
unknownSay it again, say it again.
SPEAKER_03Talk show host. Oh, sure. I just love using fucking as an adjective to start a sentence. Yeah. And I love it with before go because it's like Yeah, I love it too. I just look, if this is about David Blaine, I gotta say the greatest trick he ever pulled was do your own fumbling a baddie like Fiona Apple. What is wrong with you, man? I mean, who knows what the hell happened. Relationships are complicated, but she's she's a lot cooler than you. Walker, I know. Relationships are complicated. Just like what kind of nerd magician has the hubris. Well, I don't even know who broke up with him. But all I know is that I just all I know is who I side with. All I know is whose work I respect for. Um Is this song also my favorite? Maybe. I mean, honestly. I think with this one, what I appreciate so much is the quieter, gorgeous ones. They don't feel like any sort of I don't know. Even with albums you love sometimes, if you're rocking out, sometimes when you got a mellow out, it can be a little boring. Not so on Win the Ponds actually.
SPEAKER_07Walker, you know what this reminds me of? True Love Waits. To close out. Not not that Moon Shaped Pool is a bombastic rocking angry album, but it's a different kind of note to go out on. Very, very quiet.
SPEAKER_03Um, True Love Waits.
SPEAKER_07I I absolutely do too. I'm just But I like that. Again, listeners, um the the the Radio Heady vocations are well, because I've only ever listened to two artists in my life.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, Radio Head and Fiona Apple. I know I'm excited to do a third season just to hear what a third band sounds like. What if that was true? It's like Zach and I have not allowed ourselves to listen to any music until we come in. Beatles individuals we're talking about? We don't know just we've just heard a lot about them. People love them, they're very popular.
SPEAKER_01No, no, even Jesus.
SPEAKER_02Well, so said Jonathan. We're more popular than Jesus Christ. Is that how he said it?
SPEAKER_01More or less.
SPEAKER_02Here's it. He took out a little chart. He's like, here's Jesus way down here. And here's the Beatles way up here. As you can see, we're more popular.
SPEAKER_00Well no, John, we're not more popular, you see. You've been around a little bit longer. You know, a lot of people want to say what's more popular, Jesus or the Beatles. You know, he's good, we're good. We're both good at what we do. We're both at all.
SPEAKER_01I'm really laughing at it.
SPEAKER_07And George just quietly brooding in the corner. This bullshit. Fuck it.
SPEAKER_03Um, this song. It rolls. It rolls so hard. What do you say at this point? You know? It's okay, you don't need to say it longer. What are the what are the lyrics? That was a lyric, I just quoted that. Okay. I mean, this is another like kind of this is a this is a spurned lover. It's like about feeling forgotten when someone's moved on to a new relationship.
SPEAKER_07Yes, okay, okay.
SPEAKER_03I was like, And you can use my skin to bury secrets in, and I will settle you down at my own suggestion. Is it about trying to be friends with somebody who you still I love that interpretation? Who you still kind of love, but they've moved on.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, and they're but they're like they're like kind of stoked on the new friendship you have, and you're like, yeah, but I kind of like being your friend for uh the false motivations.
SPEAKER_03Right. Yeah, I don't know. And in this case, the person is a magician with a goatee. Can we move on from that, please? I'm sort of bugged out.
SPEAKER_01I'm getting bobbed out.
SPEAKER_03It's just kind of funny to think about that some of the best songs ever written might be about David Blaine. That's kind of funny. It's sort of like uh He's a very good looking guy.
SPEAKER_07I can I can see he is, he's magic.
SPEAKER_01Um uh uh it's sort of like how um Sharon Stone's character in casino could be with uh Robert fucking De Niro or uh who Joe Pesci?
SPEAKER_07No, no, voice of Hades. Uh oh, James Woods. Or James Woods because he's like a pimp coke dealer, and it's like, well, I think the choice is pretty clear.
SPEAKER_03Right. But also she fucks Joe Pesce in that movie, too. I know, yeah, that's a bummer. And also Robert De Niro is not exactly at his like most studly in casino.
SPEAKER_07No, but he he well yeah, the an I'm more expensive.
SPEAKER_03And the nicest two are of the three as well. Right, yeah, which is not saying much in that movie.
SPEAKER_01Hey, I just want to run a little semi-legitimate business.
SPEAKER_03Right, and his thing is like, at least I'm honest about that I want you to be an owned and kept woman. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07James Woods, uh oh terrific douchebag.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, amazing performance in that movie. He is such a sleaze ball.
SPEAKER_07And once we know the only thing he cares about, and he points at their daughter, it's like, oh wow. Yeah, he's pretty nakedly awful. Uh maybe the best before we get to the album we were just listening to is uh I Want to say maybe my my favorite two actors on screen having not an unscripted conversation or argument, but where it feels like they're riffing a lot might be in casino. The only reason you're out here is because of me. The the acting, it's it's two of the greatest people on screen ever fucking fighting with each other, and it's it's all well.
SPEAKER_03It's also great too because you see you. So bestie looks angry. Well, and you also get to see how because years have passed, uh-huh, and you've seen how their business relationship in Vegas did start, and how it has completely flipped in Tommy's mind. Is he Tommy? That's Goodfellas. No, he's uh Is he Tommy and Casino or Goodfellas? Uh good uh Tommy De Simona's in Goodfellas. Uh I forget it'll Nikki.
SPEAKER_07Nikki! Nikki! Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And how it's just like the it is completely flipped in Nikki's mind over the like he really believes what he's saying, but he's so wrong about what happened.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, De Niro's pretty quiet because he's letting himself more or less be abused, but he does respond, and because he is of Jewish heritage and not in the mob, he still has to watch himself. Yeah. I just don't like it.
SPEAKER_03Oh, anyways, that great movie. Uh Walker, let's get let's get back on track. Well, let's wrap it up on Win the Pond. Zach, did you like it?
SPEAKER_07You know, I did. I loved it, and I I I loved the I feel like we did a wonderful job talking about it. I do feel like we're gonna review our performance now. Well, well, because I was about to shit on it too. In that I do feel like at a certain point it just became a lot of us going, Oh, oh my god, it's so good. I I I I don't know. I mean, it's just I said it before, like I've always thought of this as my favorite Fiona Apple album. I'm not gonna say if it still remains in that spot, I don't know. It is as much as I love title, and as much as I don't want to harp on I can't believe person this age, at the same time, that that's lessened a bit with this album. It's like 22, I think about where I was maturity-wise, and it doesn't matter, it's not good to frame those. But this one is just a profound statement. The choice to collaborate with John Bryan in the way that she did. I don't know lyrically which one, I think lyrically it is stronger, and I prefer it. I like Fiona Angry a little bit. And it is uh it's a rock and album account, it rocks. I agree, and I love it.
SPEAKER_03I give it an A plus among A plus. I think it's totally perfect. Um, she played the whole album for John Bryan in one session on the piano before they recorded a note of it. Uh, I believe they used every song. Yeah, he he said, Don't stop. I want to hear the whole thing. I don't do demos. I don't do you try to lay down a fucking demo. This is the one time he got kind of shitty with her, is he was like, tell me you have not recorded a note of this into a four-track and anything that she had, he said, Well, then we can't do it on the article. David Blaine made it disappear. Yeah. Sorry, go ahead.
unknownGo ahead.
SPEAKER_03David Blaine made himself disappear, is what I might have made that joke earlier. Sure. Um I think that once again, Fiona brought everything she had to the table. I mean that literally, in terms of these are the songs she wrote for this album, they're all on there. I I there's a real decisiveness to her work, and as we'll see. You know, things slowed down. She does not have what you would call a prolific career in terms of output, but what she does have is an insane batting average in terms of just like just sitting down, seemingly, and I know it doesn't work like this. The creative art process can be very uh uh painful for people, but she really seems to sit down and knock out an album. Right. And I think that that gives you something that is just so what the artist seems to be feeling at that time, and I love what that is on Win the Pawn. I can't wait to get to more. We're gonna look into the only stuff you could call B-sides for this album are some covers that she did. Um, we'll talk about those in the next episode, as well as the hiatus that she took. It is not until 2005 that we get her third album. Now, six-year gaps between albums, they happen, they usually happen later in an artist's career, I would say, than before their third record. There's definitely pressure to keep putting stuff out at this point. So we'll kind of talk about what was going on and we'll look at some of the covers that Fiona did. But what you heard is what she wrote at this time. And man, I just think to have it be such perfection just really speaks to what a command of her craft she had at this point by only her second album. It's astonishing. I love it, it's my favorite so far. I when we ultimately rank the albums, this one is gonna go a lot higher than I would have thought. Oh, really? I mean, I with Fiona, it's it's only favorites, not least favorite. You know, something will have to go at the bottom, but there's there's we already talked about her first album, and it's not a Pablo honey situation. No, no, no. So I didn't know that this would be so near the top for me, but I know that it will be now. I love it. Hell yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Uh I mean, I just the last thing I'll say to just to close for for me personally is I love what you were saying about like the gap, and that's not super traditional. I I do think that it's easy to kind of look back, and and I haven't done this a lot with her. I'm not gonna, you know, uh embellish, but yeah, I mean, 1999 to 2005. I mean, you think about it just in in terms of the Matrix film franchise, you know, the Matrix was released in '99. By 2005, you know, it was conceivably done. So think about what a long gap of time that was. All that to say is so much of the culture had changed around. But what I think is really cool, Fiona Apple, while an amazing musician, poet, songwriter, would take your pick, she does have other interests, right? And and obviously she was in a position to take that break in a way. But I think that what we get out of that is why I think the rest of her career is so good that there's not a rush to compulsively make music and so forth. It's quality, not quantity, which you know what?
SPEAKER_03Leave her alone. Who are you? David Blaine? Get off her back. Okay. No, that's all I'm saying. I'm so mad at David Blaine. I the next season might just be an anti-David Blaine season. Yeah, so it's Which really speaks though to just that I'm only mad at her ex-boyfriends who don't make stuff that I absolutely adore because I I have spared no criticiz uh no criticism for David Blaine, but I'm just like, but PT Anderson's so cool, I love him. But like seemingly also not a good boyfriend to Fiona Apple, so you know.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, well, uh well I've been really excited though to kind of stay in this period more or less, even though we're moving on from it. And I'm really excited. I don't know if we're going to be sequencing our non-Fiona Apple episode in front of this or after, but I'm really excited to for listeners to take a dip in the uh the non-Fiona Apple pool with us. And and I love doing this episode. I love this album. That's all I have to say. And I love you. I love you too.
SPEAKER_03Happy birthday! Thank you, listeners. We will see you next week on a Friday. I have been Walker Glenn. I'm Zach Glenn. Bye. Ideotalk is a Glenn Brothers production. Get in touch with us at idiotalk.podcast at gmail.com. Or follow us on Instagram at idiotalk.podcast. And thanks for listening to
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