From Trauma to Resilience: Susan Snow's Story

In this episode, I get the chance to share an incredible conversation with author Susan Snow, whose journey from unimaginable tragedy to powerful resilience is nothing short of inspiring.

At just 17 years old, Susan’s life changed forever when her father, an LAPD detective, was murdered in a planned assassination. She opens up about living with PTSD, navigating grief, finding healing, and how she turned pain into purpose through her book "The Other Side of the Gun".

Learn more about Susan at susansnowspeaks.com

Transcript

Intro Song

Rob Valincius: Um.

We are live on a very cold day in the Northeast. I don't know, uh, where you're recording from Susan, but it's not the best here in terms of, uh. I, I like fall. I'm a summer baby though. I was born in July, so I like the, the hot weather over the cold. I don't mind fall too much, but up here, man, once it starts, it's, we're supposed to get a really bad winter, so as soon as we get there, not gonna be very happy

Susan Snow: Yeah.

Rob Valincius: Um, but this is the Drink O'Clock podcast. I'm your host Rob Valincius, and I have the pleasure of having Susan Snow with me now. Susan, you're an author man. Welcome to the show.

Susan Snow: you.

Rob Valincius: So, you know, you, you, uh, you have a bit of a, we'll, we'll say it. I don't wanna say tragic storyline, but it, it's, it's tragic, right?

Um, I've had, uh, I've had a lot of authors on the show. I've had a lot of people with. Tragic insights and things that have happened to them. Um, I don't know if I've had anyone of your story. Um, so that's why I was excited to, to get you here on the show. Now, uh, I know we always love to plug the book. So your book is the other side of the gun.

And your journey from trauma to resiliency. So we're gonna discuss a little bit of that throughout this. I'm sure we'll get onto some fun topics, but welcome to the

Susan Snow: Thank you for having me.

Rob Valincius: Now take me back, uh, you know, this is obvious where the trauma starts, but I wanna talk to you about before 17. Talk to me about growing up, what was life like?

And then we'll, we'll get to that kind of fateful day that kind of changed your

Susan Snow: Sure. Absolutely. Well, uh, growing up a cop's daughter. It was always interesting. Um, I, I grew up a lot with the rhetoric and the things that went on back then, um, with kids and, you know, um, some of the negative talk around police officers, which, you know, hasn't really changed. But back,

Rob Valincius: just a different

Susan Snow: yeah, back then it was. It was interesting because my dad was actually, um, a street cop for LAPD when I was young.

When I was very young, and he became a detective as I got older. And, um, one thing I could say about my dad is he was a very present father, you know, he always made you feel like the most important person in the room. Nothing else mattered. And I loved that about him. Um, he was my security, you know, there were times where I had some things happen and my dad kicked in.

The cop dad kicked in, but also the protector dad kicked in, you know, and, and I was, you know, very, very proud of that. I was very proud that I had that kind of dad. Even though he wasn't around a ton, because he was working a lot, um, I still very much was grateful for the, the time that I did get with him and,

Rob Valincius: Yeah, it must have been tough being in, in a big city. So like, I'm outta Philadelphia, so La, Philly, Chicago, you know, a lot of those cities back in, in the, uh, you know, early, mid, even sometimes late eighties. There's a lot of, a lot of shit going on, you know? Um, and uh, I'm sure as a cop it was not easy to deal with a lot of the stuff going on.

Susan Snow: Oh, yeah. There was a lot going on and, um, but I, I would say that when he was young, when I was younger and he was out on the streets, that was the time where I would worry more. You know, because daddy could get hurt out there.

Rob Valincius: Yeah.

Susan Snow: never came out. You know, I never thought of that, but I just always thought that once he became a detective, I had this false sense of security and I thought, he's got a desk job now.

Like he comes in after the fact and he was a robbery, homicide, dete detective. He did come in after the fact and, and do his investigation. And so I, I never thought in a million years that what happened to him would happen. Um, I also grew up with a mother, and it took me many, many, many, many years to figure this out.

My mom was, uh, the opposite. She, I grew up with a covert narcissist parent. And really struggled in my teens with our relationship and with, um, you know, my dad was always the go-between and the voice of reason, let's just say.

Rob Valincius: And that's, I mean, that's typically how,

Susan Snow: Yeah.

Rob Valincius: how relationships, long-term ones tends to last, right? Because you have the people that are just polar opposite. I mean, sometimes it's a little way too polar, but, um, you know, you do sometimes have somebody that can balance the other person out when someone's angry or, you know, they're, they're feeling depressed or whatever the case is.

You, you have that kind of push and pull. Um, but when you don't have that other side, that's, you know, what tends to unleash, um, you know, whatever is kind of lurking there or that has been there. It's just been kept in

Susan Snow: exactly. So, um, I was 17. And, you know, being a 17-year-old girl, I had my first boyfriend. Serious

Rob Valincius: Oh no.

Susan Snow: eh?

Rob Valincius: dad like do the, the old school, like he just had his, his gun on his holster just happened to forget to take off his belt or

Susan Snow: he was very direct. Let's just put it that way. Um, but I had been dating this guy for three. And he, he really liked him. In fact, there were times where I was like trying to pull my boyfriend away because he was locked into a, you know, a conversation with my dad and taking my date away.

So, yeah, so there was that. But um. On Halloween of 1985, you know, I, I, I had a normal life. I had a normal teenage life, and then that day I wanted to go to a party. I wanted to go to a Halloween party and I had spoke

Rob Valincius: Normal kid

Susan Snow: yeah, I had spoke to my dad about it in the morning. He was getting ready to go to court and testify.

He was a lead detective in a court case and he was testifying that day and uh, he was a little nervous, which was not normal for him. But I thought, well, I'm gonna talk to him about going to this party. And of course I did. And it was a school night and he said no. Um, and he didn't want me out on Halloween night when it's a school night.

So I left for school, kind of frustrated, and my dad went off to court. The plan that night was that my dad would leave court and go to my brother's school. My brother was six years old at the time, and pick him up from the church school that he attended and then come home and my mom would be home by then.

And then I could get them both together and schmooze them enough to go to this party. And unfortunately, I didn't get that chance. Um. As I was home and my mom was home for the day, uh, I was getting ready and the phone rang. And when the phone rang, I ran to go get it because I thought it was for me and it wasn't for me.

It was a lady from my brother's school and all she said on the phone was that there was a drive-by shooting and my dad was involved. No other information. And so my mom came around the corner. I handed her the phone the fastest I could, and I tried to listen in. I couldn't hear anything, but I could see by her body language that it wasn't good.

So

Rob Valincius: Yeah.

Susan Snow: she got off the phone and she said, we're going to the school. So we got in the car and it was about a seven minute drive to the church school, and it was nighttime, you know, it was after five o'clock, so it was pretty dark outside. And we rolled up to the school. And the way that the school is, um, situated, there is a parking lot in the middle of the school.

And then all the kids on afterschool care got out on the backside. And so that's where we headed. Towards the backside of the school. At this point, we had no information on anything, so we didn't know any information. All we knew is that as we headed towards the back of the school, it looked like daylight, and that was because of all the police cars and all the lights that were blaring.

Um, there was an ambulance that sat in the street and. We kept walking and kind of glanced over and saw my dad's truck. So we started to run towards the truck and the closer we got to the truck, we looked down and there was glass on the ground and we rounded the corner, and there he was partially covered up.

So at that very moment, I watched my mom drop her knees and scream and I just froze in the street. And the only thing that I could do was hyperfocus on the ambulance. The story I was telling myself in my head is, where is everyone? Why aren't they helping him? Because I was not able to connect what I was seeing,

Rob Valincius: Yeah.

Susan Snow: and soon enough, two officers grabbed both of our arms.

And escorted us back into the school, and we went into an office and I sat down. My mom got taken aside by some detectives. At this point, I still didn't know where my brother was. I didn't know if he was hurt. I didn't know if he was at a hospital. I knew nothing, and I was still trying to process everything that was going on around me.

It was very chaotic that night. If you can imagine.

Rob Valincius: imagine. Yeah.

Susan Snow: And I could hear these two ladies talking. And the one lady said to the other that my dad was deceased.

Rob Valincius: Mm.

Susan Snow: And in that moment, that's where my sky cracked, like my world just crumbled and everything in me wanted to leap up out of that chair and run out of that room and run as far from the scene as I could.

And the problem was, is that I felt literally like I was filled with cement. I couldn't move, and I think at that point, the shock of everything was starting to settle in. My mom came in to the room and she said, I'm sending you with a neighbor. And I know I wanted to run out of that room. I know I wanted to run away from that situation, but the 17-year-old girl wanted to be with my family.

I needed to be with my mom and my brother, and I needed that reassurance that they were there and that we were going to get through it together. And unfortunately, I didn't get that chance. So

Rob Valincius: Wow,

Susan Snow: yeah,

Rob Valincius: that's, uh, that's some heavy stuff,

Susan Snow: it is.

Rob Valincius: Um, so what, what ended up happening with your brother? Was he just in kind of a safe area or,

Susan Snow: Yeah. So what they ended up doing, 'cause he did end up, um, witnessing my dad's death. Um, my dad saved his life. He told him to duck down in the truck 'cause he knew what was happening.

Rob Valincius: That is brutal for a 6-year-old.

Susan Snow: So teachers

Rob Valincius: and and that's so barbaric. That's so barbaric to do that to your dad right in front of a school. Like that's, I mean, you know, your dad was dealing with some really messed up stuff. If, if, if people are willing to take him out while he's going to pick up his son, like where is the. Uh, I mean, I guess, you know, criminals don't have, I mean, maybe they have a code, but that's, that's gotta break everything,

Susan Snow: Well, yeah, I mean, it ended up we realized that it was, um. The man that he had testified against, it was in retaliation. Um, that man that was on trial for another crime that my dad was, uh, investigating or was the lead investigator on, um, he was out on bail during his trial, so it gave him opportunity. Um, but this was a planned out assassination. And because it was a planned assassination, unbeknownst to us, we too were a target. They had, they had followed us for months. This was planned out for months and months. In fact, there was a time where my dad was actually investigating his future assassination without knowing it.

Rob Valincius: Wow. So God forbid if they didn't get your dad that day, what would've happened if you would've went to that Halloween party?

Susan Snow: Who knows. I mean,

Rob Valincius: that is wild.

Susan Snow: And even that night, like my poor neighbor, I mean, she had known my family for years and she herself as an adult was trying to comprehend everything around her and deal with her own emotions around it. Um, my quiet little neighborhood was completely taken over by law enforcement.

Um, we had helicopters overhead, we had police cars up and down the, the streets around the corner. Um, and I, I was inconsolable at that point and she tried everything that she could to try to console me and all I wanted at that point was my boyfriend. And so,

Rob Valincius: so was this guy, like, was he mafia, was he a gang? Was it like Crips Bloods type stuff? Like what? What was it? It.

Susan Snow: It was a robbery ring and he was the leader of this robbery ring. Um, he had a limousine service that he used as a front for this, uh, ring. And he would, um, use the Lamoine service to make connections to wealthy people so that he could rob them later. Um,

Rob Valincius: is wild. I mean, that's a smart setup, I guess, but still. Um, so he, I guess he had a bunch of goons that kind of

Susan Snow: pretty much. Mm-hmm.

Rob Valincius: Wow. And your dad had no idea up until the point where they were pulling up.

Susan Snow: No,

Rob Valincius: His first. I mean that's, that just shows, you know, your dad's candor, right? Like, you know, he's not thinking about pulling out his gun to try to fight these guys.

He's just gonna try to save your brother's life. 'cause he knows what's

Susan Snow: He knew what was happening and um, so. My boyfriend, I had the neighbor call the boyfriend, my boyfriend, and she didn't give him any information really. So when he showed up at our door, he basically was like any other guy, you know, grab your purse. What hospital is he at? Where's your mom? Where's your brother?

And I just could not spit out the words if I said it. It was real. And. The more persistent he got though I had no other choice, and I just blurted it out, he's gone. And he said, what do you mean he is gone? And I said, he's gone. He is not at a hospital. And I watched him collapse and sob and both of us were just not, I mean, he was 19 at the time and neither of us knew how to comprehend or.

Navigate through any of this. We had no idea what we were gonna do next. Like, you know, what's our next move? I don't know. We were kids. Um,

Rob Valincius: You were kids. I mean, what, and if you've never dealt with, you know, dealt with death like that, I mean, you know, it's, it's different, you know, obviously it's, it's horrible if you lose an aunt and uncle, you know, whatever. But when you're losing someone that close to you, um, it just does something to you that you, you can't really fix.

It's just always kind of there.

Susan Snow: Yep. So it was, um, it was difficult and we finally made the choice to go home. I, I didn't get asked to come back. Um, my mom was busy, you know, dealing with what she was dealing with on top of the shock, on top of, you know, the trauma of everything too. And when I went home, my, my whole house was filled with people.

I had no idea who they were. Now I do, they were dignitaries and chief of police and, you know, all the people. Um, but I didn't wanna talk to anyone and I didn't, you know, I did what a normal teenage person would do is I went and hid in my room with my boyfriend and we just hid in there because I just.

Didn't wanna answer any questions and I didn't wanna talk to anybody, especially people I didn't know. Um, so I stayed

Rob Valincius: Yeah, I think at that point you, you gotta kind of. Do the healing. Like there's, I think there's, there's steps to grief, right? It's like almost like you have to accept it and heal yourself and, you know, sometimes that's not always possible. You know, you need help. But I think that's stage one. Even if you can't fix yourself, you do have to, to come, come to the acceptance phase right before you can really start to get better.

Susan Snow: But I was just, I mean, besides losing my dad now, I've lost my privacy. Um, this was a big story. So not only did we have law enforcement, but we also had the media ascend and into our neighborhood. And, you know, tried to get a snapshot of whatever, you know, that they could. Um, and so it was just a different world for me.

Uh, you know, I went from this normal teenage life to this total chaos and upheaval and all kinds of stuff, you know, and not knowing how to navigate any of that. Um. This was also the mid eighties and there was no talk of mental health back then and there was no resources for kids. And there was very little known about PTSD back then, and even it was called Shell Shock.

It wasn't even called PTSD. Um, and so, you know. I just, at that point, I just didn't have any adults that were supportive enough for, you know, that that surrounded me with support. And I really leaned on my boyfriend and my friends to kind of pull me through that time because it took six days for them to find the guys that were involved.

Rob Valincius: Wow,

Susan Snow: those six days, we had police presence in our front yard, in our backyard, and I had bodyguards that went with me wherever I went.

Rob Valincius: that's rough.

Susan Snow: So, you know, after the funeral, um, everything kind of calmed down. Everybody went away like normal, you know, happenings, and I was just left with. What PTSD gives you, which is deep depression.

I, I had suicidal ideation, although I didn't know what it was. I felt completely out of control in internally, and I was terrified to tell any adult how I was feeling because I thought that they would just throw me in a loony bin and call it a day.

Rob Valincius: Yeah, I guess, I guess back then too, I mean, that's just, uh, you know, they'll, they'll be quick to throw you somewhere and then they, you know, back then they just kind of threw away the key. They didn't

Susan Snow: Right.

Rob Valincius: care too

Susan Snow: And I, I didn't know enough about, you know, I knew, I knew enough, like if you go to a therapist, you're nuts. Like you're crazy. That was my kid brain back then. And. During that time, you know, I was living in a fog. I was walking around in a fog, and I, if you pushed me in a direction, that's the direction I would go.

You know, I had no, no sense of advocacy for myself. I, I didn't know how to, I knew how to internalize everything that I was feeling, but I didn't know how to verbalize what I was feeling. Um. And my mom came to me and said, it was about a month later, she said, um, that LAPD wanted to pay for therapy for all three of us, my brother, my mom and I.

And because I was in the state of mind that I was, I was like, oh, okay, I guess I'm going to therapy. Just,

Rob Valincius: Yeah.

Susan Snow: um, and I did, I went to this therapist and in hindsight, um. He was not trauma competent, nor was he trauma informed, um, and therefore was not willing to dip his toes in the weeds, so to speak. So he never asked me any questions that would allow me to feel comfortable enough to tell him what was going on externally or internally.

And he kept our sessions very much about. Common things like my relationship with my mom and my brother and my boyfriend in school. 'cause I was a senior in, in high school at that point, and every week I went to this man thinking, oh my gosh, today's the day. Today's the day. He is gonna say something or do something that's gonna make me feel better.

And it didn't happen. And I saw him for a year. At the end of the year, he looked at me and said, you're a well-rounded young lady. You're gonna be fine for the rest of your life, and I don't need to see you anymore. I literally walked out of that office thinking I had snapped like I was nuts, and that everything that I was dealing with emotionally, I was gonna have to figure it out myself and deal with it myself for the rest of my life at that point.

Rob Valincius: And I am sure, and I'm sure that happened a lot back then, especially, you know, unfortunately for, for women, because I feel like a lot of things that women would. Openly talk about whether it was with therapists or even police or authority figures, they just kinda waved it away. I mean, how many times did, did, uh, young girls go missing? You know, and it, they said something or told someone and like, oh yeah, you know, the family says something, right? They're like, oh, they just ran away. And it's like, no, they were kidnapped. You need to like go find them. And it's like, I, I guess it's crazy to think, I mean, I was born in the eighties, so I was 86, so, you know, I still grew up, you know, late eighties

Susan Snow: my God. I was a senior in high school in 86.

Rob Valincius: um, I, I'm, I'm still young. I'm still young, but I was around during the time before cell phones existed and, and all this, and I, I appreciate those times, but also it's hard to think where we are now and even 30 years ago. Right, like 40 years ago where we were. And it's just such a short blip in history and how how much has changed and not just the dynamics socially, right, with men and women, but also psychologically with therapists and psychotherapists and all that.

Susan Snow: Oh yeah. I mean, you know, you would. Tell somebody how you felt and, um, they would just gaslight you, you know? And so I was already being gas lit at home. I didn't need to be gas lit by other people. Um,

Rob Valincius: a very impressionable age too, 17, 18. That's like Beco coming of age and learn. Learning how to be an adult and not just what you experience. Just cut that into like, okay, you're an adult now, you know you're gonna deal with this. And it's, it's all, I think that struggle's already hard for someone.

Maybe not now. 'cause I think, you know, kids are like living at home until they're 30, but. Then it was a different story, right? When, you know, my family was like, all right, you're 18. What are you doing? You know,

Susan Snow: well, I moved out 'cause it was either I move out or something bad was gonna happen. Um. At the same time, it was, you know, I, I just, I created what I call an emotional mask based on what people said about me. So most people that met me, you know, they, they didn't see the internal turmoil. And so their, their thought was, oh, she's so strong and she's so brave.

Right. And. So that was the mask I made for myself. It was like, that's what I'm gonna let people see, the brave Susan and the strong Susan that they're, that's, that's what they're gonna see. But the inside of me was fight, flight, freeze, and v like I was fighting for my life, literally. And uh, that went on for 14 years of my life.

Rob Valincius: Wow.

Susan Snow: I married the boyfriend. Um, we're still together 40 years later.

Rob Valincius: well, congrats. That's a great story.

Susan Snow: Um, he's been through it with me. You know, he's had trauma just right alongside me. Um, and we just got to a point where when we had two kids, we had our first two kids that. We decided, or I decided that it was time and I wanted or thought that if I left all of that in Southern California and moved to another state, I didn't have to bring it with me, which is a big lie, but it's a lie.

I told myself because when I was in Southern California, there was always that bit of me that looked behind my shoulder all the time. I mean, when you've been a target, it's just there. And even though these men were incarcerated, it was still there. And I just got to a point where I just didn't wanna feel like that anymore.

That insecure feeling.

Rob Valincius: kids too now That changes a lot of

Susan Snow: it did. And so we decided to relocate to Colorado, to Denver, Colorado, and we moved here.

Rob Valincius: Okay.

Susan Snow: Um, to start our new life. And we got here April of 20, or excuse me, 1997. And, um, I was working as a hairdresser at the time and had been a hairdresser for many years, and I worked at a salon that was very close to Littleton, Colorado.

And I worked on, uh, April 20th, 1999. I was doing some client's hair. I took a break, went into the back room, turned on our little TV set back there, and up popped the live coverage of the Columbine shootings.

Rob Valincius: Hmm.

Susan Snow: And as I stood there and I saw the school and the ambulance. And the police cars and the kids that were around my same age, I literally started having flashbacks of the night my dad was killed, and it caused me to go into a panic attack. I was having a visceral reaction, but I didn't understand why, because I was told I was gonna be fine for the rest of my life.

Rob Valincius: You were cured. You were cured.

Susan Snow: so I was like, what is happening to me right now? Why am I having this reaction? And even my colleague was looking at me, 'cause no one knew my story. And she's like, you don't even live near this area.

What's going on with you? You know? And I said, I, I, I have no idea. I have no idea. And she left the room and I did what I normally did. I put that mask back on and I became stoic and I kept telling myself, this has nothing to do with me. I'm gonna feel better tomorrow. This is gonna go away. This, this feeling is gonna go away.

Rob Valincius: Yeah.

Susan Snow: obviously I, my heart broke for the families and the children and everybody, but I just thought, well, this has nothing to do with me. Right? I don't have any kids attached to this. I don't have, I'm not living in the neighborhood, whatever. And I finished my day with that stoic face on. And everyone around me was a hot mess.

You know? They were angry, they were sad, there were tears, you know? And I was like, Nope, I'm gonna finish my day. And I finished my day and I walked out the doors and I walked to my car and everything came flooding back to me. And this time it was worse. I stopped sleeping, which is. Not good when you're

Rob Valincius: No.

Susan Snow: depression.

Um, I stopped sleeping. I, uh, my suicidal ideation was probably the worst that I've ever seen it, and this time it was scary because now I'm a mom and there was part of me that didn't wanna feel that way anymore. But then there was that part of me that I was a mom and I couldn't leave my babies. And so I had this internal fight going on. My husband, the smart man that he is recognized that I was spiraling and he stopped me at the door one day and he said, you have two choices. You either go get help today or I'm putting you in a hospital. And I said, at that point I was terrified. And uh, I put up that white flag and, and surrendered and said, okay, I'll.

I'll go get help today. And I went, I made an appointment with a physician and he put me on antidepressants 'cause that's what they do. And then he handed me a business card of a trauma therapist and I looked at him and I literally laughed in his face and I said, I tried this 14 years ago. It didn't work.

You know how, how, what do you. How do you think this is gonna work this time? And he said, really, you don't have a choice at this point? And I said, you're right. You're right. You know, I had already put up that flag of surrender. So I made an appointment with this woman, and in the first three minutes of sitting down with her, I knew this was different.

She was finally asking me those questions that I had longed to hear many years ago.

Rob Valincius: Yeah.

Susan Snow: Allowed me to feel like I was in a safe space. And because I felt safe, I was able to be vulnerable and really tell her everything I went through when I was 17 to what I was currently dealing with. And she listened intently and then she looked at me and she said, Susan, everything you've gone through since you were 17 is normal. Because you have PTSD. And I looked at her and I was so confused 'cause I thought, wait, I'm not in the military. I didn't go to war. What are you talking about? And she said, no. She said, anybody who goes through any type of trauma can experience PTSD. But what you need to understand is that it's not something that just goes away.

It's something you learn to manage. And that was the moment that I had hope and I realized, oh my God, I can actually heal from this and she's my person that's gonna guide me in this journey and help me to heal. And you know, I always describe it as the sky opened up and rainbow shot out. 'cause there were a couple things.

One, I had answers. To all the craziness that I had been feeling that out of control feeling all these years, there was a name for it. You know, I, I knew what I was dealing with now. It wasn't a question mark, and I knew I wasn't crazy, and that was,

Rob Valincius: Crazy is such a.

Susan Snow: I was grateful.

Rob Valincius: Yeah. Crazy is such a weird word,

Susan Snow: is, it

Rob Valincius: throw it around, um, and you could be crazy for, for many things. Um, but I think what you experienced, yeah, you, you went through fits of craziness, right? But I think, uh, I think it was warranted with, with what you, what you dealt with. Um, but I think that's an interesting point you brought up where it's like, you know, you have PTSD and you're like, well, I'm not in the military.

How can I possibly have. PTSD. And I think that's gotta be, uh, one of those underlining problems that people go through where they go through a trauma and whether it's a small trauma right, or it's a bad, big trauma, like something that happened to you. I think we all have our own little form of PTSD and,

Susan Snow: And I, I don't even

Rob Valincius: not

Susan Snow: the D part, I don't like the disorder part because it feels like it's something like. There's so much negative connotation to disorder, right? It's like there's no hope for you. Right. And I don't believe that. So, you know, I, I always say, you know, post-trauma, because post-trauma stress is a real thing and we all do go through it, various different traumas.

Not all trauma is the same.

Rob Valincius: Yeah.

Susan Snow: you know, that's one of the messages that I try to put out is that no matter what trauma you have, the therapist, the professional that you find needs to be trauma competent in that type of trauma because there's not a one size fits all and everybody's journey is different and everybody's modalities are different. So you have to make sure that you are working with someone that understands your type of trauma. And, um, if they're not, you know, there's some therapists out there that wanna lump everybody into one big pool and you can't do it. You just, you can't do it because those are the people. And, and I've had many conversations with professionals on this end.

That agree with me when they say it is important for you to understand the structure of the type of trauma that you are dealing with? Um,

Rob Valincius: important. It's also important to get the right psychologist slash psychiatrist, and I encourage people, I think you need, you get second opinions, right? Some, you know, uh, I need a, my AC fixed. A guy comes in, gives me a, a quote, I might have someone else come in. I, I think, I think more people need to do that with their, um, with their counselors, right?

Because, you know, uh, you might not vibe with the person and they might be a great psychologist or a psychiatrist, but you might not vibe with them. And if, if you're not feeling that and you're gonna be standoffish to tell them everything.

Susan Snow: goes back to my, my saying about having that safety, feeling that that safety space, that safe space with that person, because the only way that you're going to heal from trauma is to be vulnerable, and you will not, you will hold back. You will not be vulnerable if you don't feel safe in that.

In that relationship. And I tell people, you know, your therapy or your therapist relationship is probably one of the most intimate relationships you're gonna have besides with your partner, right? And so in doing that, you have to be vulnerable. And I know that's a scary, scary word for people, and I get that, but.

Honestly, you know, I, I tell people the truth, and the truth is, is that this healing journey is not easy. It's hard, it's scary, but I will tell you, but when you do take the time, if you think about it this way, you're actually taking your power back. When you, when you choose to heal from something, you're telling that person or that thing that it can no longer have a hold on you that you're gonna, you're gonna rise up from it.

You're going to heal from it. Right. And I feel like when I talk to people in that concept, giving their, taking their power back because there's so many different traumas that you literally feel like you've lost your power. So it's really important for you to, to, to, to find that power back, to get that power back, to move you forward.

Rob Valincius: Yeah. And, and you gotta, you know, when you're, when you're talking to these people, um, and you're, you're spilling your inner most, I don't wanna say secrets, but your inner most thoughts and things, right? Um, you also have to make sure you got someone that cares, you know? Um, and I'm not saying. That that's the case for everybody.

I wanted to be a psychologist. Right. You know, I'm, I'm good at listening. Um, but I think that, and I actually just had, uh, two episodes ago, I had a, a psychologist on the show. I'm sorry, a psychiatrist on the show. And, uh, 'cause I always talk, I always talk to him like I had a negative connotation with a psychiatrist because I grew up with my stepdad being bipolar and.

All they did was just, they didn't listen to him. And he, he went through a tragedy. He had his dad and his, his brother die in a car accident around the holidays. And so, and you know, you have that on top of him being bipolar, he would go through episodes around the holidays, you know, Thanksgiving, Christmas, you can almost expect him to overdose on something that he found, whether it's NyQuil or like, just the dumbest stuff.

Right. But it's, it's trauma and it's like. I had that negative feeling because of all the psychologists or psychiatrists he's seen, and all they do is just give him pills. They didn't listen to him. Um, and so I always encourage people, don't just go see someone that's gonna give you some, some pills to make you, you think you feel better, like see a, a psychologist or a psychiatrist that really listens to you.

And, um, I know sometimes especially with someone that's bipolar you, you need meds, right? My bipolar's like.

Susan Snow: Yeah. I

Rob Valincius: The polar end of that. But I think that if you're really vibing with who you're sitting with, right, you're paying them. So you should have some sort of, uh, connection with them. And if you don't feel it, go find somebody else.

I, I'm sure that, that the, the counselor on the other side of the table feels the same way, right? We're human.

Susan Snow: Well, absolutely. And now I feel like, you know, everything is evolved, right? And we're really, we're really working more of the cognitive therapies and, and those types of modalities. Um. For people who have gone through trauma and they tend to do better with it. I always tell people like, you've gotta try different things to see what works for you specifically, and not.

Not everything works, not everything that I've done is gonna work for other people, right? So you just gotta find your own path in that. Um, and that's why I said it goes back to having the same, the therapist that understands your type of trauma, because there's different modalities for different types of trauma as well.

So you wanna make sure that you are going on the right journey with that person. Um, and the other thing I. And I hear this a lot. It's like, oh, well my, my insurance will only pay for these people or whatever, which is really unfortunate, but I always tell people that it is your healing. It is not theirs.

And because it is your healing. It's your, you know, you're the one that's doing the work and you're the one that is making the financial, you know, um, you know, you're, you're paying for this, your, your investment in yourself, um, that you can interview your therapist. Interview your therapist like you. It goes back to what you were saying is that not everybody is for everybody, right?

And you've gotta find the right person that you click with, that you feel safe with, that understands your type of trauma,

Rob Valincius: Yeah.

Susan Snow: and that's when the true healing happens. I will tell you not having all of that stuff, or even better yet, it took me four and a half years to write my book, and the reason it did is because I had to relive and refill all of the emotions because that's what I wanted the reader to do.

I wanted to take the reader on the journey so they could see from the beginning to the end this journey. And, um, and so in doing that, when I did choose to write the book, I was 50 and I don't know what it is, about 50, you turn 50 and all of a sudden it's like, draw a line in the sand and you gotta get things done right and

Rob Valincius: Dye your hair red. You're

Susan Snow: Whatever. Like, whatever it is, like we all kind of.

Rob Valincius: Harley it up.

Susan Snow: get to something where we're like, we've gotta, we've gotta do something, right? We gotta, we gotta do something as meaningful in our lives. And so, um, I knew at that moment that I mentally was capable and, um, strong. To do this book and I had the tools in my tool belt, you know, that when these emotions would come up or if I got triggered by anything or whatever, then I would have the tool that would help me to regulate my nervous system again and get me back into a better state of mind.

Um, and that is powerful. Being able to know, okay, I'm having this feeling and I'm feeling this feeling and I know what to do to pull me out of this emotion is very important. So, um.

Rob Valincius: your, um, what was your writing style like? Like how did you write, because I know I've interviewed a lot of authors and, um, you know, some people they need. Complete silence in a room. Some people go out to a bar and need to talk to people. Like what was your process like? Obviously with something like this, with so being, you know, such a traumatic event for you, did you need kinda like your own space in order to do it or

Susan Snow: Yeah, I mean there were times where when I was really diving into the heavy, heavy stuff that I literally had to put myself in a hotel room, um, and by myself. Like left the husband behind and said, bye-bye. I am putting myself into a, a hotel for a couple of days. Um, and I wrote, and otherwise it was, it was here, it was in my house.

I, um, I would just block out time in the morning and I would write for two hours in the morning. Um. The other side of that was there were days where I had put so much into it that I had nothing left, like literally nothing, and I couldn't meet with clients. I couldn't, like, I wasn't a hairdresser. I was in real estate by then, but I just, I had nothing left, but I had to learn to give myself some grace on those days

Rob Valincius: Yeah.

Susan Snow: and do something that gave me joy.

Something that would bring my state of mind back into a more alignment and my nervous system back into alignment as well. So it, you know, the process, that's why it took me four and a half years. It was just. Days where I was like, yeah, I, I'm not feeling it today. And so I'm gonna give myself a couple of days and start back again.

And, you know, and that's okay. You know, that's, that's fine. Um, if you're not on some kind of a deadline, which I was not, I mean, I did, I gave myself an internal deadline. My dad, I felt like my dad was kicking me and there rear end to get it done. Like literally. Um.

Rob Valincius: How did it feel to put. Your inner most like thoughts in one of the darkest days of your life. How did it feel to put that on paper and and allow the world to read it?

Susan Snow: Terrifying.

Rob Valincius: That's always the word every author uses when it's, when I ask them that it's terrifying.

Susan Snow: It is because when I, when I decided to write this book, I knew. A few, there were a few fears that came up. Uh, one was my mom and I's relationship was already dangling by a string, right? And in telling my story, I wanted to be a hundred percent authentic, like no holds barred, completely out there vulnerable for the entire world.

That's why it was terrifying. But in telling my story, I had to tell hers part of hers. And I knew that that would either break what was left or open a conversation because in the four years, four and a half years that I wrote this book, she asked me about it twice. Um, and there was no real interest in knowing.

In fact, she didn't even think that I was doing it for publishing. Um.

Rob Valincius: You were just doing it to do it.

Susan Snow: Uh, for funsies.

Rob Valincius: Yeah. Yeah. Relive all those old, horrible

Susan Snow: right for funsies. Yeah. So, you know, I thought that the other thing is that, you know, I've been with the same man for 40 years and we have gone through hell and back together, and I write about it. I write about it in my book as well.

And so I thought that might bring up some old wounds for him and. The third fear was my safety. You know, when you've already been a target and you're rehashing some of this stuff and putting it out there and putting myself out there, there was always that little thing in the back of my head, what, you know, is there gonna be retaliation?

Are they gonna come after me for, for putting this out there again? And. Every time I had those fears, I had to think about the core reason why I wanted to write this book. And it wasn't just about being cathartic for me. I thought about law, the law enforcement community because there were so many people that, that my dad's death still brought on so much anger and sadness.

You know, and even 40 years later, right? And I thought if they saw my journey and they saw the resiliency side, that maybe something inside of them could heal as well. And the more I thought about it, I thought, oh my gosh. There are people out there, other people that have gone through trauma, or maybe they, they went through trauma, but they don't realize they went through trauma.

And maybe those people can connect with what I say, and maybe those people can see hope in healing from whatever it is they've gone through. And so every time those fears popped up as I was writing, I just focused on those faceless people out there that needed to hear this message and that needed to see the hope.

Feel the hope and see the resiliency side of healing from something like this.

Rob Valincius: Now I'd be remiss to not ask, um, what happened with your brother?

Susan Snow: So,

Rob Valincius: how is he?

Susan Snow: so my brother, um, you know, he struggled. Um, my brother lived with a lot of, uh, survivor's guilt, even though he was six years old, he still felt like. Maybe something he could have done to save his dad. Um, and you know, he, he made some bad choices in his life. He, um, he chose the drug route and, um, that was his coping mechanism.

My mom drank, and that was her coping mechanism. And there's no judgment in that because everybody. Deals with trauma differently. Right. Um, and so my, my brother self-sabotaged, you know, and he got to a point though where he decided that enough was enough and he got clean all by himself. And, um, he's

Rob Valincius: It's a tough thing to do.

Susan Snow: on his journey now and.

Uh, you know, and has been for some years and he and I have, uh, reconciled our relationship and, um, he's doing fantastic. I call him my Hercules because he's been through hell and he's still on this earth and he's also like six foot two and almost 300 pounds, but he. Yeah, I mean, for my baby brother, right?

He's my baby brother and he's six foot two. But, um, yeah, I mean he's, he's doing incredibly well for the journey that he has had in his life, and I'm extremely proud of him, extremely.

Rob Valincius: look, sobriety is a, I know we're on the Drink O Clock podcast and I'm drinking right now. But, uh, I will tell you this, uh, sobriety is a, uh, it's a beautiful thing. My brother, who's a heroin addict, and he's been sober now, it's gotta be close to four years. He had a son, you know, he is got a fiance. Um, you know, I, I thought he was gonna be dead.

So, um, you know, I tell him every day, you know, that I can, that I'm proud of you for.

Susan Snow: Yeah.

Rob Valincius: Stand alive. And uh, I think, you know, when you talk diseases, I think addiction, it really is a disease. 'cause it never goes away. It's always that itching,

Susan Snow: Yeah. The back of your head? Yep.

Rob Valincius: Um, you know, I talked about this.

I was addicted to energy drinks and, um, I went cold Turkey and just stopped three years ago. And, uh, I keep. A bunch of energy drinks on the bottom shelf in my fridge so that I can just look at 'em and be like, I beat you. You know, I, I beat you, man. And I look, have I had the thoughts of, of cracking one open?

Of course, because it was my vice. That's what, and look, energy drinks aren't a drug, but. That was my thing. I've never been a drug guy. Um, I smoked pot, you know, back in the day, whatever. But drugs were never my thing. I enjoy having some boosts, you know, it's kind of a, hopefully I don't have a problem. I don't think so.

Um, you know, I'm sure I'd know by

Susan Snow: Yeah.

Rob Valincius: had an issue, but, um, you know, it's just one of those things where I, I applaud someone that can, that can get through that because it's, it's difficult and, you know, has its own

Susan Snow: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, he's, he's been through the ringer and now, you know, he's a beautiful wife and he is got stepchildren, he is got his own daughter. Um, he, you know, he's, he's a pop pop now with grandkids and, you know, and it's, it's, it's amazing to see his journey and see what he's done in his life as well.

Um. I'm proud of the both of us that we, we were able to rise up out of this and, and do some positive things in our life. And, you know, I'm still trying, you know, I'm still working on that, but I always tell people I'm just the messenger. I'm the messenger. And. Just trying to get my message out so that if I can help one person out there, one person hears my voice and is able to connect with what I say, then I've done my job.

Rob Valincius: Look, I appreciate you. Um, I think this is a great conversation. I just actually, I dunno if you got an email, but I just bought your

Susan Snow: Oh, thank you.

Rob Valincius: anyone that's on my show. Uh, if I can help, I'm, I'm always happy to do that. Um, can you tell my listeners where can they find your content?

Where can they find your stuff so we can kind of, uh, end there?

Susan Snow: Sure, absolutely. Um, I have a website and it's Susan Snow speaks.com. Um, my book is on Amazon. It is in paperback form. It's on Kindle. So if you're on Kindle Unlimited, you can read it for free. Um, and then I also, uh, recorded my own audio book, so it is on there.

Rob Valincius: bought the audio

Susan Snow: Oh, awesome,

Rob Valincius: I'm excited to listen to

Susan Snow: awesome. So, yeah, so I, uh, uh, that was a whole other. A bag of worms, but, um, yeah. Yeah, and I'm on IG too. It's Susan Snow One, and, um, you can contact me through my website or on ig. Um, I'm open to conversations. I'm also a coach, so, uh, trauma resiliency, live coach. So if you. Um, hear this and, you know, have any questions or maybe you're considering starting a journey of healing, um, and you just wanna someone to talk to.

Um, I do a 40 minute free discovery call and, um, you can contact me through my website for that.

Rob Valincius: Awesome. Awesome. Well, look, um, it was a pleasure having you on. Uh, my podcast is Drink o'clock pod on all socials, drink o'clock podcast, wherever you listen to podcasts. And we'll, we'll have this up probably, uh, sometime next week.

Susan Snow: Sounds good.

Rob Valincius: Awesome. Thank you so much. You have a great night.

Susan Snow: You too. Bye.

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