The Invisible Rules of Culture You're Probably Breaking

At 22 years old, Renae Ninneman flew halfway around the world to teach English in South Korea. It was 2004, cell phones weren't really a thing yet, and she couldn't even confirm with her parents that she'd landed safely until days later. That leap kicked off a lifelong obsession with decoding cultural differences, and today she's the founder of Beyond Tourism, a community radio DJ on KZUM 89.3 FM, and a doctoral student studying how we connect across cultures.

We dig into the reverse culture shock she felt coming home, how concepts like power distance and direct versus indirect communication completely reframed her experience, and why she believes cultural intelligence is a skill anyone can build. Renae breaks down why Americans can come across as "aggressively friendly" to people from other cultures, why you don't look your boss in the eye in South Korea, and how self-reflection is the piece most people skip when trying to connect across differences. Plus, we get into Korean food, sushi conveyor belts, and how music transcends language.

Check out Renae's work at goingbeyondtourism.com, and catch The Language of Music Sunday afternoons on KZUM 89.3 FM.

Want to be a guest on Drink O'Clock? Send us a message on PodMatch here: podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/drinkoclock

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:36

All right. We are live at a countdown, which is cool. I mean, uh, new software, new me, I guess. I I don't, I don't. It's not really new. It's they're forcing me to use it. So here we are with D Script Rooms. Thank you, D Script, for ruining a perfectly good thing. Uh my name's Rob Valenskius. I am the host of the Trink a Clock podcast. And I have with me Renee Nineman. Did I say that right again? You did. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Awesome. All right. Now, uh, you're the founder of Beyond Tourism. You're also a community radio DJ, which I thought was was pretty cool, right? Uh in in uh Nebraska. Yes. Uh and you're uh currently a doctoral student. So welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_04 1:19

Yes. Hi, thank you for having me. And I do have a drink.

SPEAKER_03 1:23

So Cheers. Cheers. So I like to start every episode of my podcast with kind of a background.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

You know, who is Renee? Um, what got you to a point? Now, you know, um, I know at some point you lived in South Korea, right? So take me up into that point and then we'll kind of discuss that a little bit because I think that's part of your origin story, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:53

Yeah. Uh I grew up in West Michigan. Um, it was a very uh homogenous community, and travel wasn't ever really like encouraged or anything like that. So after college, when I was like, I want to go to South Korea, um, that was sort of uh kind of a strange thing, and nobody really quite knew what to do with that, including my parents. Um and so, you know, I was 22. What do I know? Um, and this was definitely like early days of this was 2004. So early days of like the internet, cell phones weren't a thing. Um, and so it was a very different way of like finding the job, but getting interviewed for the job to teach English to kids. Um, and then like I didn't have a cell phone. I flew halfway around the world. My parents, I couldn't confirm with them that I had gotten there. So like they found out like two or three days later when I was at my job, and I'm like, I should probably like email my parents or something. Um, so that that was uh it was a journey in and of itself to like get myself abroad. Um, and I don't know if anyone's familiar with the Peace Corps, but like if I had known about the Peace Corps, I would have done the Peace Corps, where you go off to a country for two years and you work with the the locals to build something in their community together. Um, but I was really just ready to go out and like explore the world, and that's what I did. So you you you didn't want to just hang out in Michigan? You know, I love Michigan. I mean, I live in Nebraska now, but where I grew is is beautiful. I I like it, I still like it. So a lot of people, you know, bash their hometown, and I get I get that too.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Um, but I I really did like living in Michigan, so where did I drive to in Michigan? I was uh I had to drive. So I work in in the insurance world and I had to I I had a meeting in Detroit. Okay, and then I had to drive. Was it uh I stayed, I think, in in uh gay, which I I think is uh like a mining town or something. It it was like in between where I needed to go. I basically went from Detroit and had to just drive in a rental all the way up to northern Michigan.

SPEAKER_04 4:25

Oh, okay. See, okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

Yeah, I grew up in the And I stayed kind of in the center, yeah, you know, somewhere.

SPEAKER_04 4:31

I grew up over here on the west coast. Okay, so but yeah, it's a surprisingly big state with a lot of people, so and a lot of water. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Yes, very dense. There's there's just people everywhere. Yes. Um and it's kind of like PA. So I'm from Philly, and uh it Philly's just a weird spot because you know it's a Quaker state. So you could go you could be in the city and you could drive uh only about an hour and a half and you'd be in Amish country, which is I feel like that's pretty unique. I don't know if there's any other major city like a like Philadelphia, which is you know what, maybe a top ten city in terms of like a population density where you could go from just a city city to like farms and doing you know, and buggies and like they don't drive cars, right? So it's like it's a it's a culture shock there. Yeah. Uh when and it and it's not a far distance. And it's uh it's kind of um, I don't know if you could do that in every direction, but it's pretty damn close, you know. Um interesting. So yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a it's uh have you been to Pennsylvania?

SPEAKER_04 5:44

Um a long time ago for a very short amount of time. So I don't really have memories. Yeah, it's uh your trip to Michigan.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

It's it's a unique, it's it's definitely a uh unique state. Uh because there's just there's a lot of things that would shock you or surprise you in in certain spots, you know, especially even in the city of Philadelphia. Um now let's let's get up to that point. So uh what made you well, you know, what was that determining factor? I mean, at 22, you're a kid, which by the way, I grew up, you know, I'm I'll be 40 this year. Um it was a it was a pretty cool time that we lived in. It was I think it was very unique because is it was right before cell phones really start to take off, right? And you know, it was that time when you know you'd have to say to your parents, hey, they or they said to you, be home by a certain time so I know you're alive. Um if they didn't know where you were, they're outside the house, like, you know, Robbie, Renee, like they're yelling for your name and hoping you're like by the house. Um and that was just the world we lived in. And I um and now I think about it, and you know, I I I text the wifey when I'm landing, you know, in the plane, like, hey, I'm good, I'm alive, we landed fine, you know. And uh I can only imagine, you know, what that was like to um I mean, I guess I got some of it as a kid, but as an adult, I I wouldn't even know what that's like, you know.

SPEAKER_04 7:18

Yeah, it was interesting, I think. It cell phones were like barely a thing. And South Korea is more advanced technologically than the US, and it was then, and I I think it still is now. So everybody had cell phones and they were pretty advanced, like people were watching TV on their cell phones um in 2005 in South Korea. Um, I don't know that it was like high quality, but the phones are really nice. Um, and so that yeah, I think it was an interesting time. There were there was the internet, so there were a lot of travel blogs, so I could like learn about um places that I traveled like through online things, but not like cell phone, not you know, I wasn't using my phone to navigate. I still had to like get directions on how to go from place to place, like based on landmarks or maps or something like that. So it was a really different time. And so I I mean, I think it's an advantage that I've been able to travel like that. And then also now, obviously, I travel with a cell phone with my Google Maps open and I'm wandering around. You know, it I've I could do it both ways, right? And but it was a really different time for sure.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

Yeah, kids listening to this, uh, you know, you didn't have GPS on your phones. Google Maps wasn't a thing. We had to have a Garmin, you know, or something like that. And it was a separate device that you had like rigged into your car somewhere, and the maps were downloaded. So you might go to, you know, there was no traffic. It didn't, you know, update you on what was going on. It just simply told you how to get there. Because before those, it was map quests. Yeah, and you had to print it off. You printed your your directions, which I used to do. And and in most cases, if you're by yourself, you're screwed because you gotta read the directions and hope you don't mess up.

SPEAKER_03 9:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

And then, you know, if you have somebody with you, they're reading you the directions, and then you're hoping they tell you where to turn when you need to turn.

SPEAKER_03 9:18

It worked. It worked. Pretty well.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

But I gotta tell you, uh, I am a a huge fan of Google Maps and ways and all that, and uh being able to know that there's, you know, I and look, I've taken the same way to work, same ways to work 11 years. I'm a I could probably drive there with my eyes closed. I always turn Google Maps on to make sure there's no accident on my route. And if there is, then I know to pivot, right? It's just I and I I'd imagine most people at this point, if not, have it just automatically loaded when you plug your phone into your car now. I mean, uh, if you got a car that's relatively new, you know, you have Apple Play and you have Google uh whatever it CarPlay and it just everything just connects. Um, you know, my wifey's car, you don't even need to plug it in. It connects Bluetooth and automatically Google Maps comes up, and I'm like, yeah, I wish I I know I I need that for mine. But that's fine.

SPEAKER_03 10:18

What 20 people do.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

I know, right? Um so what's a what's a decision like that at 22? You're a kid. Um what was that like for you? Because, you know, not many people are just gonna be like, all right, I'm just gonna move to a totally different country. And it's not like you chose something glamorous, right? Like an Italy, a London, you know, like something like that. You, you know, you went to South Korea, which is even more of a culture shock because I do think that, you know, South Korea, Japan, like their cultures and the things that they do, they're well, one, they're they're definitely way more advanced in technology with a lot of things. And I think that they're just the things that we do here that we think are normal are asked backwards in half half the world, you know. So what was that decision like for you?

SPEAKER_04 11:07

Um, I don't really, I just knew I needed to do it. So I had had a um South Korean suite mate, my freshman year of college, and then I met another South Korean, like I had just met some South Koreans, and I didn't know this at the time, but um, there are places in Asia, South Korea included, where you can usually get a job teaching English if you have a bachelor's degree and you're a native English speaker. And so that's sort of what that was it. That's the rec of the requirements for the job. So for me, um it was not that hard. Like I knew South Koreans, they told me I could get this job. The company that I worked with, I checked with my South Korean friend. She's like, oh yeah, that's a big company in in Seoul. So, you know, like it was it, I got it vetted and everything like that. Um, it was pretty good pay. Um, like I, but like something in me just like knew that I had to do that and that I wanted to do that. Um and, you know, it I had a I when people ask me about that, my answer is usually, well, I had it was really hard, but it it was a difficult year, but it was worth it. Um, and really in a lot of ways changed the trajectory of my life. Um, and like giving me the opportunity to see the world um and learn a lot about culture, learn a lot, like to study the language a little bit. Um, I also visited China, Vietnam, and India while I was out there. So I got to see a lot more of Asia. Um, and so it was it was tough, but it was worthwhile.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

So yeah, because guess what? When when you become an older adult, you're not able to do that. You know, you can't just kind of pick up and be like, you know, I'm gonna go to Australia today. Yeah, you know, or next week. And and I live there for a while. Like it's I I think if you are younger, it makes it makes the decision. It's harder because you know, a lot of times you don't have the money, you don't have the means, you don't have the what you need. Um, but if you do, it, you know, there I feel like most people aren't ever like, you know, mad that they did it, you know, even if they have bad experiences. Um I think life is part of that.

SPEAKER_04 13:25

It's not that it was easy, like it was it was hard, but it was absolutely worth it. Um, so yeah, it was it was a a good learning experience for me at the right time. And I, yeah, I took advantage of the opportunity. I sowed my wild oats, is what I will usually say.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

Now, did you know any um Korean? Did you learn it on the go? Was it like, did you plan it?

SPEAKER_04 13:51

Um, I didn't, not really. My this my sweet mate, my freshman year, um, in in the dorm, she sat down one night and she taught me the Korean alphabet. Um, and so like it was literally three years after that that I went to South Korea. And again, no cell phones. I didn't know, like there was no like Duolingo for me. Um, but like the alphabet, the Korean alphabet is actually not that difficult. It's pretty easy to learn. Um, and so when I landed, like I could read like the I could pronounce it, I could like read things, but I didn't know what they meant. Um, I remember that was the year that elf came out because I I landed in like end of November. And so eLf was everywhere and it had like ELF was advertised on all these buses, but they don't have the F sound in Korean. So they do the P sound instead. So it was um, I could read it and it said el t. And I thought that was really funny. Um, so I remember that like riding the limo bus into Seoul, like my first night. I was like, okay, I can read some things because my suite mate taught me the alphabet three years ago and somehow I retained it. And now it helps me springboard into learning a little bit more of the language, and I don't remember much of it now. I can still read, but um I, you know, it's been so many years and I don't use it, so it's rusty, it just goes away. But I can still read the out like the alphabet is like stuck in my head. I can read it.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

So now, you know, you're coming from Michigan. Yeah. In in in America. Yes. You go to South Korea. Yes. Gotta be an intense culture shock, right? Uh and especially, you know, 2004, 2005. Talk a little bit about um, you know, what what were some of the things that they did that kind of shocked you? Maybe there were some things that you did that kind of shocked, you know, uh just a South Korean. Like is it what what some of those things look like? Um, and I'm sure it might be different now because that was also 20 years ago, but what was that like there?

SPEAKER_04 16:03

Well, I was working in a school. So that kind of what happens is I I worked in a private English teaching, English language school. And so kids would come study English after school. So it was like an after-school activity for them where they would come and learn learn English. Um, so this is like kindergarten to middle school aged kids. And what the structure was, I would teach and I'd have a Korean partner teacher. And so they'd spend like 45 minutes with each of us. Um, and so the setting where I worked, there were a lot of foreigners like me. Um, and so it was pretty open. And my, you know, my direct contact with the culture was through my um South Korean coworkers who were used to working with foreigners. Um so I think that, you know, made a difference, made it a little bit easier for me because they were used to me, were used to Americans and Canadians and Australians doing weird things. Um, and they were also very welcoming and very generous and very kind to us. Um, and so that really helped a lot. And I think also probably they like adapted some of their behaviors in in that setting too to make us feel more comfortable. Um, you know, they were interacting with us, and you know, we didn't speak South Korean very well, so they would speak in our language. So that kind of helped too. Um so I will often use the term bubble, you know, like I I lived in South Korea, and there were but I did spend a lot of time in sort of my Western bubble with my fellow teachers, um, like mostly Canadian teachers and Australian teachers. Um but I I did work really hard to try to get out of that bubble. Um, I tried my best to learn Korean. Um, and I also tried my best to meet other South Korean people, um, do like language exchange and stuff like that. So um, yeah, I certainly made plenty of mistakes. And I am sure like because you know, I was 22 years old. So it's like being a foreigner on top of being young. Um it was uh, you know, an interesting time and learned a lot. Um, but I think like it the thing that I have come to understand about cultural differences, and this is a big part of like what I talk about now too, is that they people don't explain them very often. Um, so one thing that I was taught was that, you know, there was the boss, you know, the guy in charge of the school, and you're not supposed to look your boss directly in the eye. So that's like a cultural rule that they taught me. Nobody taught me why I was supposed to do that. There was no like surrounding like background or explanation as to why I'm not supposed to do that. But I was very clear, clearly told, don't look kid straight in the eye. That's disrespectful. I was like, okay, fine, I can like not do that, but I didn't know why. And I was like, I was always worried that there was something else that I was doing wrong that was disrespectful. Um, and so I just I just didn't know. Um, and so that these things, these cultural differences, um they're just not explained, right? And so I wish that some some of this could have been explained better to me. Um, and I wish that you could say that. I just wanted to see my son is hanging out. Um so that that was I I don't think I think they protected me a little bit from like full on culture like full-on Korean culture contact. Um which was kind of them. Um, but then also I didn't get a lot of like description um about what it was I was supposed to do and not supposed to do. It wasn't very in-depth, it was very shallow. Um, and so I kind of like didn't even know that I was doing this, but the pat like since I went abroad, I've spent a lot of my life trying to like decode cultural differences and find ways to explain them. Um, because I have so many memories of like, well, just being confused and not understanding what was going on, and like not being able to describe, like, I am sure I did weird, offensive, strange things, but nobody told me, right? Like it just wasn't spoken. Um so yeah, it was it's hard to say exactly what what I might have done wrong.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

Um did you ever find out like why it's disrespectful to look a boss in his eyes? I feel like for me, and I'm sure this is the American in me, I feel like it would it it's disrespectful to me if they don't look me in the eyes. That means they're not paying attention.

SPEAKER_04 21:27

That's how I think it's exactly. So like the concept of not looking someone in the eye is really strange, like to show respect. So it's like the exact opposite. And like this is the trick with so many cultural differences, is that it doesn't make sense to you like, but I want to show you respect by looking you straight in the eye, like that is a kind and respectful thing to do. Um but it's really it's like multiple things, but I I d I have since figured it out understand it a little more deeply. And just that, um, you know, and and also this also goes to some of the terms and the learning that I've done around cultural differences. So, you know, hierarchy and um power distance is uh much different in South Korea and a lot of Asian countries. And so the concept of like this person is high above you or this person is below you or something like that, hierarchy is really important. And then also um how you show respect to people in the hierarchy um is also a really important thing. And that can change, right? So if you have, you may have like this high complicated hierarchy, which exists in South Korea, but other places in the world they have that as well. Um, but how you treat that person who is high above you is always different. So in South Korea, um, you don't want to look directly at someone in the eye if they're very high above you, and it's just a sign of respect. So it has to do with like the like the the power dynamics and then like the actions that support like how to show respect.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

That's interesting. Now, now I have a I have a question. So I interviewed uh excuse me, a couple who moved from America to Japan. And uh, you know, they told me something that was kind of a I don't not I don't know if it was a culture shock, but um they like the work to life balance is is a lot different. So it's five o'clock, everybody in the office like you know, for us, we we just all disperse, go home. But everybody in Japan, it's like everyone's going out, you're getting drinks, you're drinking sake. In a lot of cases, people are just getting, you know, fucking loaded. Yeah. And then, you know, taking a train, you know, home and they're passing out. And they said it's um they didn't, you know, it's it's just different, you know, in comparison. How South Korea is it? Is it similar in that? I don't know if it's just like in, you know, in some of the Asian countries that they do that for maybe it's it's kind of more specific to Japan.

SPEAKER_04 24:19

Um, there was a little bit of that. It wasn't every single day, but we did have certain times where we we would go out as a like as a staff, the mixed, you know, the South Koreans and the Westerners. And we would hang out and drink and do um karaoke rooms, noribangs. Um, that was super fun. Um there's a little bit of that, but LA I didn't experience it to the extent at which I think it happens in Japan. But we had a lot of fun, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

Yeah, you know what they they always tell me we don't have it here, but it's like the uh um this like the sushi belts. I really want to go to one of them and I don't know if there's one. And you know, they're talking about how the sushi just kind of goes around. And they said it's pretty cool. So in Japan, every plate kind of has a like a code to it. Yes, if you take a plate, it'll automatically, you know, charge you based on what you grab, which I thought is is pretty cool.

SPEAKER_04 25:16

It is cool. I've been to a sushi conveyor belt restaurant in Japan. Um, and they I've also been in one in Seattle, so they have them in the United States.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Yeah, I heard they're here. I just wish there. I you know what? I bet you if I Google it, there's probably something in Philadelphia somewhere. It's possible.

SPEAKER_04 25:35

It's not every major city. Um, it's a pretty niche thing, I think, but it's worth looking because maybe not Philadelphia, but New York City, probably. But they're just they're pretty fun. Yeah, like it's just kind of a fun place to go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

I I love me some good sushi. It's it's you know, it's so good. And I'd imagine it's even, you know, I was and I when I was having this conversation, I'm like, I couldn't imagine having like Japanese sushi. You know, it's not like sushi here, where like if you're getting it from Colorado, yeah, you know, they're not doing their own fishing. You know, they have to buy the fish, have it shipped in. It's just it's a totally different experience.

SPEAKER_04 26:13

Yeah, you've always gotta experience the food. And you know, Korean food is still different than Japanese food, but like Koreans have their own, you know, fresh fish dishes, you know, which I didn't eat very much when I lived there. But, you know, there's whatever the the the food is, the seafood is, you gotta you gotta take advantage of it in that place for sure. And then whatever the food is in general, you just have to try the local food. And it's pretty good in Japan for sure. And South Korea. I ate Korean food every single day. And 20 years later, I still crave Korean food um and love eating it.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

So what's what was you know just some popular dishes in Korea? Is it is it um is like more spicy food?

SPEAKER_04 27:03

Yeah, Korean food is a lot spicier, especially compared to Japanese food. Japanese food is not as spicy, um, but South Korean food is, although not as like probably the spiciest food I've ever eaten is Thai food. I've never been to Thailand, but like that's a real that's a whole nother level that I I have not been able to achieve. But I ate everything in South Korea, and I really did get like a high um spicy food tolerance, and still can eat pretty spicy foods, which I'm pretty proud of. Um, but this the food is is really really delicious. Um, some of my well, like there's uh you got your street food, there's uh food called dakuki, which is like rice cakes and like spicy sauce. I love that stuff. And then kimbab, which is um like uh a vegetable roll. It looks like sushi, but it's not sushi, it's kimbab. And if you watch K-pop demon hunters, they eat it a lot, they eat kimbab a lot. So um it's uh it's pretty fun to see that. Um, but yeah, Korean food is absolutely delicious.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

I love spicy food. Um, but I'm one of those people where I need to be able to enjoy it, right? I don't want to eat something that's so spicy that it ruins the rest of my day. Like, you know, I don't I don't want to eat at like the one time I had flamethrower wings, and I yeah, I was probably like 20. I thought it and I was like, oh yeah, I'll eat one of those. I took one bite, I was crying, I was snotting, it milk didn't help, and it was the worst, and I was I was like that. I was like, I couldn't breathe for like 30 minutes. That's scary. I don't I don't know why people do that to themselves.

SPEAKER_04 28:46

I don't either. I will say Korean food is to me the perfect amount of spicy. So when I first got there, I was eating everything. I was like, I'm gonna try that, I'm gonna try that, I'm gonna try that. And not all Korean food is spicy, but some of it is. You just have to figure it out which one is and which one isn't. And I would, you know, order things and I'd be eating it, and my nose would be running and I'd be sweating, and I'd just be like, it is so good, I can't stop eating it. I just have to keep eating it. Um, and so that's what the Korean food is is good. Like it's very delicious and flavorful. Um I love me some spicy. And eatable. So it's edible, it's not too spicy. Um, so I highly recommend it to anybody.

SPEAKER_00 29:31

Now, what was it like coming home after living from abroad, right? So talk about reverse culture shock. You know, how did that hit you? And how do you think that reshaped kind of who you are? I was wild. How long did you stay out in in South Korea?

SPEAKER_04 29:48

One year. Okay. Which is not that long. A lot of people spend a lot more time in other places, but it was long enough to to have an experience. But when I came back, it was um it was pretty intense um and confusing. Um just very confusing for me. I like looking back at my time in South Korea, I was just like, what just happened to me? You know, because I had finished college and I sort of killed time for the summer, and then I went straight to South Korea. So for me, it was like, well, now I'm back in the United States. I uh like, what am I gonna do with my life? What was this experience I just had? It felt weird. Like I definitely felt like not normal. Like something's happening with me. I don't understand my identity anymore. Like, who am I? Um, so I asked a lot of really big questions. Um, and this is this is the time where I actually started learning about like cultural differences, um, cultural values. And I read a few books that just like changed my brain chemistry, as sometimes we say these days, um, and helped me like put words to my experience. So even just the concept of like power distance um and like a direct versus indirect communication, um, these types of ideas and concepts, like describing cultural differences, like I mentioned before, like a lot of times people don't like they can't describe culture, they can't describe it very well. And so when I came back and I was started reading some of these books and learning more about cultural differences, I was like just shocked to understand, to like understand and to know that you can actually describe these things. And it felt really empowering to me. And I still see all the time people like avoiding it because they don't know how to talk about cultural differences. So they just don't talk about it, or they just sort of leave it like nebulous and unexplained. Like, oh, how can we can't explain American culture? It's too complicated. Like, we can't explain why we do that. I don't know. It's just it's just the American way, or it's just the Korean way. Um and like when I came back and I started reading these books and learning and exploring, I was like, you actually can't describe this. And so again, spent like 20 years living. Uh, well, I lived abroad and then came back. I worked with refugees, um, worked in a lot of global settings. And I was able to learn more, build more experiences, understand different cultures, and be able to describe them. Um, and like to be able to describe what I was experiencing and um what was happening.

unknown 32:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

So now that you're back, you know, you you've you're back, right? Let's talk about your company, um, you know, which is beyond tourism. So talk about um its inception. Um, what made you think of the name? You know, what does that mean to you? Yeah. And, you know, what type of gaps are you filling, you know, and addressing that you you think, and I you've probably at this point explained it, but um, fill us in on that.

SPEAKER_04 33:13

So it was almost two years ago when I kind of had the idea. And I think as many as happens with some people, like the original idea is not kind of what I'm doing now. So originally my thought was I'm gonna teach these um these like these cultural intelligence skills that I have. Um, I'm gonna teach these skills to people who are traveling internationally, either as tourists or for as expats. Um and so that's kind of how I started. And so the the idea was um like when you are out in the world, you're out traveling. Um if you're a person who wants to engage with the world, um beyond the tourism mindset, right? Beyond being a tourist. So you want to connect with other humans, um, not just like wander around their city and take pictures, right? You want to get to know people. Um, and then like the complications that come with getting to know people from a different culture, um, there's there's a lot of those. It's it's sometimes difficult to connect cross-culturally. So, you know, if you're a person who wants to connect with other people beyond being a tourist, beyond tourism, then I can help you do that. I can help you learn how to connect better across cultures. So that was kind of the inception. And I did that um for a bit and with mild, mild success, I guess, not super a lot of success. And so I've decided to kind of shift and then work with immigrants who are in the United States. Um and you know, I could talk about that, talk about that in more depth, but it's not quite as interesting. But it's more like the skills are what's important, right? The ability to connect with other people from different cultures. Because honestly, like if you talk to any traveler, um that like the best stories come from meeting people who are different from you and connecting with them on a deeper level. Um, and I have those stories for sure. And a lot of people who travel have those stories too. Um, and I have mixed feelings about keeping this name while I'm thinking about like switching and serving a different audience. Um, but um it's the concept is still there. Like we're connecting with each with each other in a way that's not tourism is not like the transactional nature of being a tourist is not in place. We are gonna connect with each other as humans. Um, so that's that's sort of what I and the dream, and that what's inspired me to start this business and keeps me going. Um, I just think it's really important is the world is shrinking. You know what I mean? Like we can connect with each other so easily online, and we have to be able to understand each other across these cultural differences, especially if we want to achieve goals as a planet um and live in peace and help each other and you know, enjoy the best of humanity. Like we need these skills and these abilities to um to work across differences.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Yeah, and I think um, you know, technology is a blessing and a curse. Yeah. You know, um, I think that um with all the technology we have, you would think that we would have bridged that gap a little more because I could just Google stuff. I can just connect through Zoom with somebody from another country and I can have discussions. You would think you'd have a lot more people um that have done that, but they they don't. Yeah, you know, they just connect with the people here, you know.

SPEAKER_04 37:13

And well, it's not it's not a matter of like, let me just learn a thing, right? And so, and I I'm a super nerd on this topic, which is why I'm studying it on a much deeper level. But it's not just about like um, let me learn a thing about this culture, like that I can't look somebody in the eyes in South Korea. That is that is a part of it, right? There's certainly a part of it where you have to learn about the differences, but then there's also the part of it where like you have to inspect yourself and understand like your own cultural programming, right? I am an American, that is how I was raised, and I act a certain way and I believe certain things because I'm an American. And if you don't like even like you can learn a ton of stuff about the world, but if you never come to terms with that, like and understand I am the way I am because of my cultural programming, and then you look at another person and you're like, well, they are the way they are because of their cultural programming. And it's not so much like I'm a bad person for who my cultural programming, they're a bad person because of their cultural programming, but you just like it's just different, right? And so to if you see that other person in their cultural programming and you're like, well, that's wrong, that's bad, then they can look back at you and and think the same thing. And so the skill is really, and and what I teach is that cultural intelligence, which is similar to emotional intelligence and cognitive intelligence. This is a skill, okay? This is a skill you can get better at. And so it takes like self-reflection, it takes some learning, but also takes like the ability to look at yourself and understand I am this way be just because of where I was raised, right? And so it's a little, it is learning, but it's also like self-reflective skills too, which is sometimes hard. Like, but I thought this was a part of me. Actually, every this everybody's like that in the United States. It's it's just a cultural trait, right? So coming to terms with like your cultural traits and who you are as a person really helps like the like it's a mindset shift about like how I'm gonna act and interact with people who are different from me and who have that different cultural programming. I don't know if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 39:41

Yeah. No, it does, it does. And you know, it's I think that what you're talking about um also transcends culture, but also you can look at it from uh gender dynamics, right? It's the same concept, right? You see a little boy playing with a doll. Yeah, you know, and maybe in your head you're like, oh, well, don't do that. You're a man, right? But that's something taught in our culture, in most cultures, right? I think it might be a little bit different today, but I still think, I mean, you look at gender reveals, you know, blue and pink, right? You're not seeing, you know, green and purple, and I'm not seeing purple and going, oh, that's a boy. You know, so um I think that uh it does transcend that as well. And and I I like what you're doing because I do I do think that, you know, especially we as Americans, all right. Yeah, you look at you need to look me in the eye here on YouTube. We need to get better at self-reflection.

unknown 40:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

Okay. Uh, because not everything is is everyone else's problem. Maybe it's you. So think think about I, you know, uh I'm I'm pretty good with being uh with coming out and saying I'm wrong. Um sometimes there's some things I'll I'll some hills I'll die on for no reason, but the in a lot of cases I'll be the first person to tell you, hey, I'm wrong. Um or I'll admit, hey, yeah, let's let's let's talk about that, right? So um but I think we've we've made strides, but then you know, we've we've kind of taken some back steps and we've made strides. It's like this weird pendulum swing of uh of that. But what's your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_04 41:21

I mean, it I like what you mentioned about like the gender stuff because it's a social construct, right? Culture is just a social construct, it's just made up, right? We just make it up. And we make things up that are good and that are bad, right? Because just like with the eye contact example, if South Korea looks someone in the eyes, it's bad. In the United States, it's good. These are social constructs, there's absolutely no inherent value in eye contact, bad or good. It's just socially invented. And so, like when it comes to, I think Americans, yes, like for an American to like step back and be like, I'm not gonna, I'm gonna look that person in the eyes because this is America and I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it. This is the right way. And like, okay, like that's how again, this self-reflection, like you were saying, it's not that's not what it is. Okay, this it doesn't matter that much. What matters is are you trying to show respect to somebody? Okay. If you're trying to show respect to somebody, then you should and they're from South Korea, you shouldn't look them directly in the eyes, no matter what it feels like for you. And interacting cross-culturally, like if you're adapting and changing your behavior, which is what you should be doing, it does feel weird. And it felt weird to me to not look somebody in the eyes. But that's the point. Like you have to learn how to adapt, right? You have to adjust and you have to learn and you have to like be like, oh yeah, this does feel weird, but it's it's not a bad thing. So I do think that like Americans, especially the individualism is a little off the charts, right? Like people just are like, I think I know what's right, I know it's best, what's what's in the United States is the only thing that matters. And so there is sort of this like narrowing, I think. Narrowing of what we think is good and right and like the the right thing. Like look somebody in the eye, give them a strong handshake, and that's good. You know what I mean? Like that's socially constructed, it's made up. Somebody just made the way or the highway. Right.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

So that's that thinking doesn't help.

SPEAKER_04 43:41

So I think the social construct thing just sheds a lot of light on, you know, like it's all just invented, and then we assign moral value to it. You know what I mean? And so I think like we all could stand to let some of that stuff go, um, and then show each other the respect. That uh we need based on our cultural uh upbringing, which for some people is eye contact and a strong handshake, and for other people it's not. But let's show each other that respect.

SPEAKER_00 44:16

Yeah, and it's it's it's different here too. Like uh is your is your son, is he younger? Yeah, he's seven. So yeah, he okay, so uh he so he might not be in on this, but it's like if you were to talk to a kid and you're like, oh yeah, you know, uh it's like six or seven, and they're like, you know, I don't know if you've seen that movie. I don't know else. Six, seven, right? And it's like, you know, because uh, you know, we'll go to the the wifey families and you know, I'm I'm kind of the fun uncle. I get to be the fun uncle because I get to go home and I don't we don't have kids, right? So um, you know, so we get to joke around and you know, someone says six, and I'm like seven, and then the kids start doing it, it's hilarious, right? But uh, you know, you got I'm sure if you go some somewhere you totally else and you do that, they're gonna just look at you like, what are you doing? You know, or if you look at an adult and do it, yeah. I'm sure some adults don't know, but they have kids, I'm sure they do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:12

So they know, yeah. That was a weird, that was a weird cultural flash point.

SPEAKER_00 45:19

All from a TikTok. Yeah. Um now, you know, you talk about invisible cultural rules, right? Um, you know, what's a what's an example of one, you know, reverse where you know an immigrant is coming into America that they might not know?

SPEAKER_04 45:39

Yeah, I think there's a lot of those. Um trying to think of one. I think that for a lot of people coming to the United States, um and it it it depends where they're coming from too. Like there's big clusters of different cultures. So for some people, depending where they're from, it may not be an issue. But um like when you first meet somebody and they're really friendly and really warm, right? Americans, especially when you're first meeting each other, you're like out in public, you're saying hello, how are you today? Uh Americans like to express um kindness through like this warmth, which is expressiveness, right? And so this is one one of the many cultural values that I talk about, where like neutral, like a neutral face is where you don't show anything on your face. You're just kind of like very stoic and you kind of keep everything inside. And Americans are very, like very warm, very expressive, especially at first. Um, and a lot of times are willing to share a lot of information early on, like I'm gonna tell you about my family and my grandpa and my grandma and stuff like that. And the small talk, right? And so the warmth of an expressive conversation and um talking about like certain family or like personal things, um that comes across as like sort of aggressively friendly to some people. Um and so for some immigrants coming to the United States, it can feel really fake. Like you you're not really this friendly, like this is just a fake like montage, like I don't even know. Like this is not real. Like whatever you're doing is not real because the you don't have like you when you first meet somebody, you put up barriers and you're very tight-lipped and you don't communicate this way. But Americans do. And so it may sometimes it may confuse people. Like, why are they being so friendly? They must really want to be good friends with me. And that's not it. It's small talk, right? And so then they get confused about well, why am I not best friends with this person now? Like, because then we just talked about like our families and our history and stuff like that. Um, but then Americans will walk away from that, you know what I mean? Um, and so it's sort of um but you know, we're friendly, you know, we want to be friendly, we want to be warm, we want to be welcoming, and so that's how we show that. And that's not that that's you know, the effective nature, the warmth is definitely that exists in some places, but not all places, and it can be very confusing.

SPEAKER_00 48:39

Yeah, and it depends on where you're going. Like so I'm from Philly, yeah. Um a little different here in some spots. Uh and even me, like, and I, you know, um I went to I went to Alabama um for for a work trip. And uh, you know, uh I'll never forget this. Me and one of my coworkers were walking down one side of the street where uh we have our our bags for the event, and someone across the street saw us and just started waving. We don't know this person. And I I look at my buddy, I'm like, why the why the fuck are they waving at? So you know, like my my first instinct wasn't to wave back, it was what the hell, what's wrong with this guy? You know? Um, but like everyone from the south. A lot of them are very nice. And uh it's a lot different in the Northeast. Uh we're we're a little apprehensive about people that are uh too nice or nice off the bat. You know, we we have a little bit more of a hard exterior in some cases. So I think it's funny that that dynamic can kind of play a little bit here too, depending on what state you're from.

SPEAKER_04 49:41

It's true. And like I think that's interesting because you know, all countries can be like this. There can be a variety of different um uh cultural, like like the the culture presents in different ways in different parts of the of the of the country. So like culture, like the term culture is not like always national, right? It doesn't mean like the way I talked about it is not that's not the place every every single state in the union, right? And even within a state, it might vary. Um, but either way, it's a way to describe culture. And like the way you describe it is much less neutral, right? You're not that's not the effective um warmth. It's like the neutral um presentation. You're not gonna connect with people right away. You're gonna be a lot more direct communicators, probably, very straight to the point, um, all that kind of stuff. So there's, you know. Yeah, we're different all over the country for sure. There's um a lot of underlying stuff.

SPEAKER_00 50:43

Melting pot. But yeah. Big old melting pot.

SPEAKER_04 50:46

It is, yeah. It's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 50:48

Now, uh let's get on to the the the fun stuff here. You you so you DJ every Sunday. The language of music. Yeah. How do you feel discovering music from other countries has deepened the way you connect with people from those cultures? Do you think that that's helped you?

SPEAKER_04 51:08

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Um, yeah, I've been doing that for uh 13 years. Um, I used to be on Friday mornings, but I recently switched to Sunday afternoons. Um, so it's been um a big part of my life for a long time. And sometimes I forget about it because I just do it every week, but um, it does inform a lot of like how I think about the world. Um, I think that because of my show, and it this is a volunteer position for my community radio station. So this is like a hobby more than anything, in case anyone's curious. Um, KZUM 89.3 FM. Um, but I'm pretty good at geography. So I'm always like, well, what's that place? And then I have to look it up. Um, and also like knowing what languages are spoken and which countries, I'm pretty good at that. Um, and then when I meet someone from another country, I can very often ask them or like mention an artist that I like from their country, and then they're like immediately surprised. Like, wow, how do you know about my the music from my country? And um I love doing that. Honestly, it's so much fun because I it's like a it's like a demonstration that like I am aware of the world, right? I am I see things outside of my borders and I value things outside of my borders, um, the border of my country. And um, it shows that I have a respect for their country and their culture too. Um, and so I get a lot of shocked looks sometimes, but they're also very impressed. Um, and so I really like that. And I would say that, you know, since I came back from South Korea, listening to music from other countries has always been important to me, learning about different cult countries, like what's the capital of this place, what's the river in this place, or what body of water, what's the president, like what's the historical thing? You know what I mean? Like the information that we did we talked about at the beginning of the show that you can Google and you can find it out. That's that is interesting. Like music is interesting, it's it's connect it connects us to each other um when we can connect over something as beautiful as music. Um but it's uh it's really fun to to be able to talk about that. And also I've gotten so many good recommendations. Um, and it's just it's a part of like my global mindset, I think. I just live my life always just thinking about the broader world, right? So it's for me, it's um it's just kind of always there, I guess. I'm always just thinking and learning more about the world.

SPEAKER_00 54:06

Yeah, music is weird, it transcends uh language. You know, you can listen to anything and it could invoke a an emotional response, right? Absolutely. It's it's it's a wild phenomenon, just music. Uh in, you know, I could listen to a song and it, you know, I it could take me back to when I was 16, you know, and uh I think it doesn't really matter if it's in English or not. You know, there's certain things that that uh it'll it'll invoke into your brain, and who knows where in the brain it pulls that from, right? We could guess, but I still think that we don't know enough about it.

SPEAKER_04 54:41

Yeah, well, and sometimes it's the dancing. I mean, that's yeah, like sometimes it's just dancing. You may not not know what's going on, and that's that's the case. I play a lot of music in in other languages, but like I love music you could dance to, and that's the the beauty of it. Like just go and dance, you know. Everybody, it is a human experience, and that my show that's called the language of music for that exact purpose, you know. Like, music is a language that we can share as humans, and it's a really neat thing.

SPEAKER_00 55:13

I love it. I love it. Now, let's end with this. Um, if someone's listening to the show, maybe they're an expat, they're an immigrant immigrant to the US, they're feeling lost or feeling frustrated. Um, what's the first thing that you'd want them to know?

SPEAKER_04 55:28

I'd want them to know that it is absolutely normal to be lonely, confused, overwhelmed, um, maybe sometimes depressed, angry, sad. Um, the experience of immigrating to another country, no matter where you're from or no matter where you go, is a very complicated and difficult experience. Um, a lot of people use the word culture shock to describe any like little thing that's different. Um, but culture shock is actually quite a difficult um experience. Um, and I could do a whole nother show talking about culture shock. Um, but it's very painful. It's a very painful experience. Um, and anyone who's spent any amount of time in another like a lengthy amount of time in another country knows how bad it is. And so if anyone's listening, like that's the first thing I would say is like whatever whatever bad feelings you have, this is normal. Um, it's hard changing cultures. It's really, really hard. So go easier. Especially if you're doing it alone, right? Oh, 100%. Even like as a with other people around you, it can be hard because it's it's just really hard.

SPEAKER_00 56:49

But it can be a very enjoyable experience, right? If you if you get through that initial uh, you know, crap.

SPEAKER_04 56:57

Yeah, well, because it does bring a lot of skills, right? It brings the ability to adapt, it brings the ability and the reward of getting to know other people who are different than you, but somehow like you're able to connect through your differences, which I mean there's so many really wonderful examples of that. And it's a really powerful thing. Um, and so I think that that that in and of itself is the reward is getting to know people who are different than you and connecting with them. Like, okay, well, you grew up in like Rwanda and I grew up in the United States, but here we are talking about something where we have in common, and that just is really powerful, you know? Like to be able to connect on the human experience with someone, even if they're different than you. So um, the reward of pushing through, I think, and and working through the differences and being kind and loving and respectful to different to people who are different than us is always worth it.

SPEAKER_00 58:02

I couldn't agree more. And I mean, at the end of the day, that's what makes us human. Yes. Right. Absolutely. Is being able to just uh bond on not just uh, you know, language, uh almost like a molecular level. Yeah. Right? We're all we're all humans, you know. It's just we're we grew up in different areas. So it's it's it just changes who you are to to a certain degree. But um, look, this was this was an awesome conversation. Um, I hope uh someone listens to this and you may, you know, if you're an immigrant or an expat, it helps your day a little bit, right? Um can you plug away, Renee? Tell us uh about your company where we could find it, if there's anything that you want my listeners to jump to.

SPEAKER_04 58:41

Yeah, uh just the website, going beyond tourism.com. Um, I have some social media that I'm not using too much these days, but beyond tourism or going beyond tourism, um, you're gonna be able to find me probably there talking about culture um and sort of trying to educate about culture and get us to think a little bit more about our culture. So um, and then so I have some services where I can support, especially like immigrants who come to the United States. I have one particular cultural communication skills package that I offer. And then I can also support expats um and teach them a lot about cultural um differences and how to um like tips on how to how to how to think when you're in um and how to approach culture in a in a new place.

SPEAKER_00 59:43

Awesome. Love it. Love what you're doing. Um my podcast is drink a clock pod on all socials, drink a clock podcast, wherever you listen to podcasts. Um, and uh let's do this again soon. It was a pleasure.

SPEAKER_04 59:56

Indeed. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 59:59

Absolutely. You have a great night.