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The Messy Hairstylist
Whether you are a mess literally OR figuratively we are here to help you take imperfect action to find your success as a hairstylist. Each week we deep dive in to tough topics to address the struggles we face in our industry. We push the boundaries, break the stereotypes and go hard against the "norms" that make us feel inferior.
The Messy Hairstylist
Do You Tone to Fix or to Finish?
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Bright hair doesn’t happen by accident; it happens when you choose your toner with purpose. We unpack a simple system that turns toning from confusing to clear: identify the true lift after the rinse, read the remaining pigment, then decide whether you’re neutralizing, refining, or enhancing. Along the way, we call out common traps—like overtone-as-habit—and share why letting a little warmth live can make blondes look shinier, cleaner, and more expensive.
We dig into brand literacy with real-world examples, including how a “neutral brown blonde” can pull mahogany because of hidden red-violet undertones. You’ll hear how we study manufacturer maps, spot dominant vs secondary tones, and document formulas to avoid surprises. We also talk through timing and application that actually work behind the chair: five to ten minutes on damp hair for most clients, rapid five-minute cancels, three-minute root taps to blur lines, and leaving the face frame for the final seconds to protect brightness.
If you’ve felt chained to ash or stuck glossing every highlight, this conversation opens the door to cleaner lifts, smarter zone toning, and finishes that reflect light instead of swallowing it. Expect practical takeaways you can use today: level-by-level pigment cues, when a violet shampoo beats a gloss, and how to sequence application so the warmest zones process first. Ready to shift from guesswork to craft? Follow the show, share this with a stylist who overtone-spirals, and leave a quick review to tell us your favorite toning win.
Follow Abby on Instagram and TikTok at @theabbywarther
Follow Kelsey on Instagram at @kelseymorrishair
Welcome to the Messy Hairstylist Podcast.
SPEAKER_01:I'm Kelsey Morris. And I'm Abby Warther. Whether you are a mess literally or figuratively, we are here to help you take imperfect action to find your success as a hairstylist.
SPEAKER_00:Welcome back, Messy Besties. We are here today with another episode, and I seriously wish you could see Abby's face right now.
SPEAKER_01:Why did I tell you? Actually, it doesn't even matter if I tell you or not. You would be seeing it. Do you want to describe what you're looking at? Or I do.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. I need everybody to close their eyes real fast and picture the Goonies. I'll just close the one eye. Picture the Goonies. And remember that that what do we call him? An ogre guy that was locked in the basement who has like one eye open and one eye closed. And he's like, that you guys, yeah. Is what Abby looks like right now.
SPEAKER_01:What is his name? And why do I look like that?
SPEAKER_00:What I don't know what I I it was it's not chonk. I thought it was chonk. He's the character. It's not sloth or sorry. I thought it started with an S, but um, let's just say Abby had some Botox that kick kicked in wrong.
SPEAKER_01:They just call them sloth. Sloth. I said sloth. Yeah, they do call them sloth. Yeah. Yes. That's me. That's me. Yes. I had some Botox gone wrong, but it's okay because I do love my Botox lady. She's amazing. And I've been going to her for years. And I get a lot of like work done around the eyes. And it is known for those of you that get Botox or thinking about it, it is very possible to have a quote a slight slip of the needle, not that she slipped. Um, and it instead of lifting the eye, it droops the eye. So I've got a droopy eye right now, and I'm just laughing about it.
SPEAKER_00:No, she is. I'm like, how are you taking this well? You're you're doing she's like, what am I gonna do about it? I'm like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. But I guess that's why we signed the release. You know, we gotta sign that release because these things happened. And like you said, it's not necessarily something she did wrong. It's just no, no, she's amazing.
SPEAKER_01:Like she's the best person I've ever been to. And I texted her right away and we've been texting about it. She's getting me in tomorrow. She's gonna give me little drops to help my eye. And I'll go back to her again. Because guess what? It's like the same if like someone comes into me for hair and something like it lifted weird, or like those things happen. If she were like a negligent person or somebody that I'd never been to before, but I know I trust her. So it's okay. And and and you're welcome because now you can just smile and laugh at me, and you can't say you're having a bad day because I'm gonna have a bad uh 12 weeks.
SPEAKER_00:Maybe it'll wear off faster. I don't know. I don't know. Okay, well, we're gonna talk hair today and not just about Abby's eye, but if I get distracted and just literally just start laughing, black out, it's because I can't.
SPEAKER_01:I should wear an eye patch into the slums.
SPEAKER_00:Today's episode is we're gonna do a technical episode. We haven't done a technical one in a long time. So when we talk technical, we like to talk about like actual hair stuff, like the process behind it. And so I thought today it'd be fun to talk about toning and why stylists make toning harder than it needs to be. Oh, a hundred percent.
SPEAKER_01:A hundred percent. It's something that in in all the years of teaching, even from the beginning of me teaching to today, it hasn't shifted that there's this like I either tone or I don't tone, or I understand toning or I don't understand toning. Um, yeah, that toning is makes people scratch their head for some reason.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, real life question Do you think anyone ever really completely understands toning?
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Yeah, why? Because I do. Okay, good. No, I know, but tell me why.
SPEAKER_01:Um because why do I understand it?
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Because I understand it made you understand it. Because I've I've studied and geeked out over color theory. Yeah, because you understand the chemistry behind it and like why and I make sure I understand my color line and I experiment. I think that's part of it. You have to experiment and test out things. Um, once you know your color theory and your color line and how it works, then yes.
SPEAKER_00:Well, one would one could say that if you're still experimenting, then you don't 100% understand it. So I'm just saying. So here's my theory on this. Here's my theory. I think um I have a very good understanding of toning as well. And why? And because my why is I understand the color wheel.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Um, I understand the um undertones and the like, you know, um in a in a toning, it's like which uh shade is dominant and which one is gonna show more and which one's gonna be the undertone. I understand that, but I'm I think that some even if you do fully understand toning, it still can go wrong. It can, yeah. It's like my Botox went wrong. Yes. Right, right. Like I my favorite uh story, not really, it's not even a story, but I will say I use Redkin Shades EQ. And all of my stylists love the shade 9NB. Neutral, is it neutral blue? I think. See, look, I don't even know because I won't touch it. Um I won't touch it. I have used it a couple times, and every single time I use it, it turns my client's hair like mahogany, like almost red. And I and I'm like, am I doing this wrong? So I just don't even mess with that one. So it's probably a neutral beige, then, don't you think?
SPEAKER_01:I thought it was a new, I think it's a neutral beige, and then I'm like, am I wrong? Why is it turning them red? But I think it's a neutral beige. That would make sense because some color lines, their beige is more of a pink, uh diluted red tone, or it's a a diluted violet tone. Right. Right.
SPEAKER_00:So um, yeah, so I guess it's hard to understand. But I think um to start, we should talk about like the why behind the tone. Like, what are like how do you come up with why you're toning?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, I mean, we've said on here numerous times that uh and this is interesting because I know that you are having a different approach lately, um, that I always tone to finish and not just to fix something. So what that means is if I'm not just canceling out warmth or you know, fixing and and neutralizing a color that I don't want, I will um I have a rule of am I going to neutralize, um, refine or enhance. So those are the things that I look for. So yeah, but I know that you have a different approach these days.
SPEAKER_00:Well, you know, I yeah, I used to tone at like I would say a hundred percent of my of my blonde. Well, I guess anytime I put lightener on someone's hair, I was toning a hundred percent of the time. Um, and I strongly felt that it like blended all the colors, made it feel more cohesive. It it it um helped with the cuticle, making it look more smooth and polished and shinier. Um, so I have recently taken a step back because I kind of found as I was, as I was just toning, not I shouldn't say just toning to tone, like I knew why I was toning. It was my finish, it was my shine, it was my all the things. But then things were looking a little bit like drab. And I'm like, you know, what would happen if I didn't tone this balayage today? What happened, what would happen if I just put a purple shampoo on it and just, you know, really let it just like live in its natural brilliance and having really good results. So I have gone from a hundred percent toning to 50% toning and loving it. 50. I would say 50.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, because I don't tone every single person. There's those few that do lift beautifully, and then just using like a violet shampoo at the end. Um, but like it's also knowing your color line because what I use, Kevin Murphy gloss, it's also a bond builder. So it gives it gives a nice treatment to it. So that's interesting. You're just letting people go. Oh, go not go on naturel. Oh naturel.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you know, I like I painted yesterday three different guests, and I didn't tone a single one of them. And I but I always check, I always just like, well, let's just make sure, you know, because sometimes when you paint hair, you can have a little bit of warmth at the root and the so you just want to like just balance everything out. No, nothing. And it was stunning, it was almost like it was it was just more vibrant to me. And that could be also a shift in the way that I'm seeing colors these days, and what I'm finding more appealing, and that is the warmer, yeah. You know, the warmer tones, not necessarily, I shouldn't say warm, don't think yellow gold. I'm just thinking more like of that pretty, vibrant and and the and act, yeah, the warmer hues.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it is warmer because warmer tones we know reflect light and cool tones absorb light. So yeah, when you maybe maybe those people didn't need that toner because any bit of ash in there is gonna just drab that down and absorb that light. So um, yeah, warm is not the enemy here. And I I think it's interesting. My younger clients coming into the salon, they're actually saying, I don't like ashy tones in my hair. I know, I know. I'm like, I have never heard this before in my life and I love it.
SPEAKER_00:I literally love it. And I think that's why for a long time, like we had to tone everything because any ounce of warmth, any ounce, they'd be like, I see yellow. It looks orange to me. And you're like, no, it's it's just it's blended, it's soft, it looks beautiful. So you would have to overtone the new, like the root, or where you just you know applied that fresh lightener because they wanted it to be super cool. That's so true.
SPEAKER_01:I think that if you've been doing hair for more than five years, don't you think? More than five years, yeah, you did overtone because we would equate uh a warm highlight to us being a bad hairstylist. Exactly. We would tell ourselves that because then also clients used to like lose their minds if they saw warmth, they would lose their minds, any warmth.
SPEAKER_00:And now, as there's a shift, it's like okay, great. You know, we're a lot, we're we're having a little bit more warm. So um I could go on about that all day, but I think that's gonna be in our next episode. So uh stay tuned for trends. Um, okay, so let's talk about like formulation and and basically like we have we've said here that with toning, and the reason we've gotten so good at it is because we understand the color wheel and the chemistry behind it. And I think this episode would have to be like three hours long to really get into exactly how we formulate or exactly the the chemistry behind it or how we know what we do. But what if you could give us just a few like tidbits of what your, you know, like what is the first thing you go to when you're toning and why?
SPEAKER_01:What's the first thing I look at to help me formulate?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And like you're you're yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, the first thing is is like we're not gonna talk toners until you've rinsed that highlight out. Like, don't even you can maybe start to think about stuff, but um, I know like younger stylists that I've worked with, they'll be like, what toner should I use? And it's like, nope, we're not even gonna talk about it until we've rinsed that out. Because the first thing you have to look for is the level that it's lifted to, because that's gonna determine so many things. You have to work with that level that you've lifted to. So that's the what about what's the first thing for you?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, same, same level level I've lifted to, and the um balance from roots to ends.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yeah, because yeah, the root could be a level nine, and then the mids could be a seven, and then even the ends could be a nine, an eight or two. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's so you have to decide then if you're gonna be doing like zone toning where you're gonna have multiple toners, or you know, it what exactly you're looking for there. So I 100% agree with that. So you're looking first for your levels, um, and then you're then you're going to lift, right? What do we lift to? Are we orange? Are we yellow? What does that look like? What are you trying to correct?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I know we have a lot of um newer stylists that listen to the podcast or are stylists that are in school, and that's something that I think is really, really important if you want to be a strong colorist, is knowing the natural remaining pigment at each level. Know it. Know that when you see orange, that is a level seven. So you just have to like know that right off the top of your head. Um, and that takes practice. It takes practice to so working with a stylist, like you and I work with stylists and we train them. That's a big part of it for me. Like, what level is this when they rinse? And I have them start trying to guess. And so then they start to you have to train your eye. Right. I just pointed to my one good eye. No pun intending.
SPEAKER_00:Literally, when you were talking though, just so seriously talking. I was trying so hard not to laugh. So I'm so glad you just gave me that moment to laugh.
SPEAKER_01:Maybe I'll put put a screen. No, I won't. I won't. I I was saying maybe I'll put a screenshot of this up on our Instagram or something, but I won't because I don't want my Botox lady to feel bad.
SPEAKER_00:No.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my gosh. That was so that was perfect.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's okay.
SPEAKER_01:Train the one eye to look at one good eye. Yeah. I you know what I need? It's one of those um um what do they call those? It's like uh like what the eye glass the monopoly guy wears. Oh, I know you're talking about that's so funny. It's like a magnifying glass in one eye. Puts it on his one eye, yeah. That's what I need.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's really good. That's really good. Yeah, so uh understanding what's you know, what were you saying? Keep going. I get blacked out.
SPEAKER_01:Um, no, knowing the the level that it is. So if it lifts to an orange, it's a seven. If it's a yellow orange, it's an eight. If it's a yellow, it's nine. And then if it's a pale yellow, it's a ten. Like we need to know those because if someone lifts to that level seven and they are orange, and we are trying to tone them with level eight and nine toners, and we're just working with violets, violet doesn't cancel out orange, right? We need blue for that. So that's why we need to really understand. So step one is what level did it lift to? That's the first thing that they look at. Step two is then I make the decision do I want to completely cancel that out, neutralize it? Do I want to enhance it or do I want to refine it? So what that means is let's say a client's coming in and asking for, they want that golden honey um tone in their hair. Okay. And let's say that they lift to that level eight. So they're yellow orange. They have yellow orange in their hair. So I know if they want to be like a nice honey, soft, golden-y, I don't want orange in the hair, but I do want some yellow, right? So if I want orange in the hair, they're gonna be more, they're probably gonna want to look more copper, but this person wants to look more honey and soft golden. So I want to um, I don't want to neutralize it completely, right? I don't want to cancel all of that warmth out, the yellow and the orange. Um, I don't want to enhance it all. I don't want to make her like glowing gold, but I just want to refine that a little bit. So what refining means is I want to keep the yellow, but I want to take out that orange. So I would put in a little bit of blue into there. And that's it. The tiniest bit of blue into my formula, and so that I can let that yellow stay in there and shine. So that's that that was such a fun description. I loved that. Oh, thank you. You were so funny. Okay. No, the way you broke it down, I was engaged. Great, good. So that's what I look at is um neutralize and do I want to neutralize it? Do I want to enhance it? Do I want to make it more of what it lifted to? Or do I want to just take away part of it but leave some of it?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's that was really good. That's a really good way to explain it and break it down. I love it. And I think it's important, you know, that brings me to the next part to understand, you know, in a in a line. I don't know if Kevin Murphy's the same way, but with Shades EQ, there are so many shades. There are so many numbers and and and to understand, and it can feel really overwhelming. Um, so to really understand the dominant color, is that what they call would call it as the dominant color and then the what's the one behind it then?
SPEAKER_01:The dominant color and then the your um that's a good question. Yeah, there is verbiage of that. It's your dominant verb, you're not it's just non- your non-dominant color. Your second dominant color. Your secondary color, I guess.
SPEAKER_00:Secondary, primary and secondary, you did it. Okay, so what that means is when you are looking at um a shade that has two letters next to it. So for instance, a nine NW, which would be nine would be natural warm, right? So an N would be your primary color and the warmth would be your secondary. So it's to understanding that that it's not necessarily equal parts of those two things, like the the new the neutral there or the natural is going to be dominant, your primary, yeah. And then the secondary is the one that's behind it. So it's just adding a little bit of warmth.
SPEAKER_01:And that's how most of our color lines are uh because those are considered pre-mixed color lines. Because we don't know exactly how much is in there, but yes, I love that. That's the dominant. I want to say it was driving me nuts, even though I don't use Shades EQ. Um, I wanted to know what um 9NB was. What is it? And I pulled it up for you. 9NB is neutral brown blonde, however, that is red violet undertone. See, every time, every time I'm talking just mahogany streaks, I have no idea how, but that's how, because it's a red violet, and so that's what's so interesting. And this is why people have to study their color lines. Because if I were to just look and see 9NB, I would not ever guess that red violet were the undertones in there. I would not guess that. And it is like a very diluted beige, but still red violet is pretty strong.
SPEAKER_00:So no wonder that's it. Yeah, I hate NB. And and I'm still not gonna go back to it, even though I understand why it's done you doing that to me. It's done me dirty. Yes. I won't even I won't even give it a chance at this point. You hold a grudge, yeah. I do, clearly. Clearly, I do. I'm not giving it a chance, but all right, so we've we understand the first two steps here. Um, and then I think one that is really important that is maybe something that's controversial is how long to leave your toner on. Now, once you figured it out, once you've formulated it, you're putting it on the hair, like how long are you leaving this thing on for? I mean, people say for it to work effectively with shades EQ, and it's probably maybe the same with Kevin Murphy, it has to be a full 20 minutes. Yeah. I mean, that's what they say with Kevin Murphy. Is that what I do? No. I can pretty much guarantee I have never. No. Unless I'm no, I never have left a one on for 20 minutes.
SPEAKER_01:No. Never. No. And I I would think that I I think I do probably formulate for I do a 10-minute, I do five to 10 minutes, but it's most people are 10-minute process with the toner on the wet hair at the shampoo bowl. Um, and maybe I formulate a little more strong for that. I don't know. Yeah, but that's what works for me. And it holds perfectly on clients.
SPEAKER_00:100% agree. 100% agree. So I have two, like, I have like three different ways that I tone hair and um or gloss hair, whatever you want to call it. We're gonna call it toning hair because that's what we're gonna do. I call it if we want to call it a gloss, that's fine. We're not gonna, we're not gonna take heat on that one. Um, so if I know I'm just trying to really deposit, really deposit a tone into the hair or something, you know. Uh for instance, I've I've had some of my blondes who come in and they're like, I want to, um, I really want to see some warmth this time. I'd like to add some warmth into the hair, which I'm loving. So that I'm gonna let that process for a full 10 minutes. I'm gonna formulate to make sure it can process for a full 10 minutes without going yellow. Then I have situations where I know um I need to just cancel out, maybe I lift it, especially if sometimes if I'm painting hair, we're right at the root, it gets a little bit warmer there. That will be, I call it my rapid tone. Like I will mix it, like you said, a little bit more potent so that I can put it on, leave it for five minutes, and be done. And then I have my extra special toning situation, which we have talked about, which I call my root tap. And that is where I have like a platinum blonde who I've just done micro foils on. And I just want to blur out those those foil lines. So I just put that toner on, let it sit for literally maybe three minutes. And it's watch it, watch it. And then people ask me, well, what's the point of that? And I said, because it's giving that natural appearance of a little bit of a like grow out, but by the time that toner or gloss that I just put on her hair is all the way gone, she's gonna have that natural grow out anyways, because it'll have grown. So that's kind of how I look at it. Um, but no, I am not a firm believer of let's do a 20-minute, it's gotta do that, walk away. Yes.
SPEAKER_01:No, it's more strategic than that. And I I love um, yeah, I love that breakdown. And then also, I'm sure you do this. Um, sometimes when we do that zone toning, like if like in that example I gave before, when that mid um is a level seven or level eight has that warmth that you don't want in there, um, you apply that first so that can sit longer. Yes. And then maybe you do you flash it on the roots and the ends at the very end. Um, so that so application of toner makes a huge difference. So I think that's the next thing I look at. It's like, okay, our step one is what level did it lift to? Step two, what do we want to do with this tone? Neutralize, enhance, refine. And then step three is how are we applying this? Because that can make or break. So that has to do with application time, but also the true application itself and how we apply that. Yes. Cause like, are there times you want to leave out that hairline and flash it through the hairline? Um, the last 30 seconds. Like, there's so many different things that we can um customize when we're toning.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. So I think as we wrap up this episode, I want to say just a couple more things. Number one, um, and you said it in the beginning that a toner isn't a magic eraser. Like it's not, you're not gonna fix uh an application that had gone wrong. You're not, I mean, you can make it look a little bit better, maybe it, but it's not a fix and it shouldn't be used as a fix. Um, and the other thing that I firmly stand by is yes, you can have some of your favorite shades. There are toners that you love, there are shades that you love, but it's not a one size fits all. Your 10 V V isn't gonna work on everybody, you know? It's just not. So you have to be afraid, let not be afraid, like Abby said, to experiment a little bit and to understand what's gonna work and what's not gonna work. But you really, really have to go back and understand your color theory and why you're doing what you're doing.
