Farming with The Moon, The Cunning Farmer Episode 4

In this fourth episode of The Cunning Farmer, Todd Elliott and I tromp-on through Chapter 4 (The Moon, Mistress of Magic) of his pivotal book, The Cunning Farmer: Agrarian Magical Practices, Mythology, and Folklore, discussing Lunar magic, Moon phases and Mansions, and how to integrate the Lunar Calendar into your agricultural practices.

Learn more about our new podcast: The Language of Irish Mythology Podcast.

Join the Unshod Substack (for free) and commune with us! 

Purchase The Cunning Farmer HERE.

Learn more about Daniel’s work HERE.

Books Mentioned:

The Complete Picatrix

777 & Other Qabalistic Writings of Aleister Crowley

Mansions of the Moon

On the Heavenly Spheres

Todd's Moon Signs Substack

A guide to restoring the ancient relationship between farming and magic

• Explores how to reconnect with nature and use practical, nature-based magic for gardening and farming, fertility, and abundance
• Examines Moon work, plant magic, forest deities, Earth energies, weather magic, the cosmology of ritual, and how to work with land spirits
• Discusses folk magic traditions of North America and Western Europe, including the grimoire tradition, Western esotericism, alchemy, Kabbalah, and shamanism as well as Taoist principles and Reiki

Magic and farming, in the minds of ancient people, were not separate realms of life, but both were woven inextricably into the way people lived. Through libations, prayers, hymns, dances, sacrifices, and rituals, ancient farmers connected to the sacred forces, the gods, nature spirits, and ancestors to make the crops grow, keep the herds healthy, the weather favorable, and release energies of fertility. These rural farmer priests and priestesses of the ancient past are the spiritual ancestors of today’s cunning farmers.

This book explores folk magic traditions of North America and Western Europe, including the grimoire tradition and the practices of witches and cunning folk for increased fertility. Todd draws on Western esotericism, Taoist principles, alchemy, Kabbalah, Reiki, and shamanism to show how to use practical, nature-based magic, just like our ancestors, for more abundant gardening and farming. He shows how to work with land spirits, including meeting the place spirit of your land—the genius loci. He also explores working with Earth and Moon energies, plant magic and forest deities, and ritual. Learn how to deepen your connection to elemental and celestial forces and explore the idea of rewilding the imagination to enhance your relationship with nature and the spirits that call it home.

Transcript

Welcome And Series Overview

D. Ffrith Griffith 0:02

De aguit hello August Falcha and welcome, Zishyan Unshod. This is Unchad. This is the fourth episode in the Cunning Farmer series with my dear friend and brother Todd Elliott. We where we are reading uh his book of the same name, The Cunning Farmer, chapter by chapter, from beginning to end, from the come from the front cover to the back, and uh diving into the deeper thoughts and dialogues uh within each bound of the chapter. Today's episode four is chapter four, the moon, the mistress of magic. We talk about uh a lot of things. This is a far-ranging episode, all in view of the bound of the moon, but we talk about the definition of magic, we talk about hermetic magic in terms of uh lunar astrology, we talk about uh moon water and the phases of the moon and working with the moon's phases. We also dive into uh the lunar mansions or stations and uh their integration both within the feminine idea of the year, uh, the idea of agriculture as a womb of this nourishment of seeds, of grass, of life, um but but also uh how to inhabit that in in in some sort of practical and also spiritual sense. Um I I think our conversations go even farther than that, but for now, that's a good enough synopsis of today's episode. If you are new to the podcast, if you are just jumping into this with us, I encourage you jump back a number of episodes to uh episode one or part one of the series, the cunning farmer series, and uh go grab his book, Todd's book, The Cunning Farmer, is available basically anywhere you get your books. Um, bookshop.org is my favorite. Uh go to your local bookshop. If that is unavailable to you, it's also on Barnes Noble and Waterstones and uh Amazon and Thriftbooks and like I said, anywhere you get your books. Um, we will be reading this entire book together on the podcast with Todd. We have a number of episodes recorded and a number of episodes uh still left uh to schedule. And so get the book, read it with us. I think you're going to really enjoy this. And before we jump into today's conversation with Todd, a quick note. Unshod has been our podcast, our singular podcast for a number of years now. I think we're going on four, which is crazy to think about. Uh, but this week we have released a new podcast. It's a thing all by itself. It's a container, a cauldron, if you will. Uh, it's titled The Language of Irish Mythology. It is a podcast entirely dedicated to the tellings of Irish mythology, but also the let's call it the inventive linguistic study of the language within that Irish mythology. Every episode, which right now is weekly, we are releasing uh a bifold, I don't want to call it an episode, but a bifold experience where in the first part of the experience or the episode uh is an oral telling of the mythology at hand. And then the second uh part, the second fold, is about a 30 to 60 minute in-depth study of what we just read. And so if you're a fan of mythology, if you're a fan of Irish mythology, if you're a fan of language, if the studying of the language in mythology means anything to you, check it out. It's called the Language of Irish Mythology Podcast. We're on Substack, uh, basically of the same name. The link is in the show notes here. And all of the episodes, conversations, the the in-depth inventive study, as I said, it's all written out uh on the Substack as well. So you don't even have to listen to the podcast episode. If reading is your thing, it's all it's all there. All of the resources and the footnotes and the recommended readings and the links to everything, it's it's all in the substack. And so again, if mythology and the language of mythology is your thing, especially from an Irish perspective or general insular Celtic perspective, check it out, the Language of Irish Mythology podcast. Link is in the show notes. Without further ado, let's jump into today's episode with Todd Elliott. Yeah, it's so cool. Attuned to her ways, I guess, is another way of saying that. When the rain comes and then you watch the the growth, the vegetable growth that follows, and and you can see these things. And then a rain comes with lightning, and the following day the sun shines, and you can hear the grass growing.

Todd Elloitt 5:12

Yeah, everything seems happier.

D. Ffrith Griffith 5:14

Yeah.

Todd Elloitt 5:15

It it's April. It's been a great it's been such a green and and beautiful month. It always you know, but everything was running on reserves.

D. Ffrith Griffith 5:22

Yeah.

Todd Elloitt 5:23

You know, like all the plants were growing because it's the season when they begin to grow, but they were they're drawing down what little soil moisture there was, and you could see brown in the grass here. Um I imagine it it was the same there. You could see a little just a little bit of brown, and I was like, there's no brown in the grass in April usually. Speak and the leaves looked like go ahead.

D. Ffrith Griffith 5:45

I was gonna change the subject, please finish.

Todd Elloitt 5:48

Oh yeah. I was the leaves look like they were like just not quite as verdant as they wanted to be.

D. Ffrith Griffith 5:57

Yeah, it's uh I was gonna say we you and I have had a conversation in the past, just thinking about the god of thunder in so many Celtic traditions, especially continental, but it's kind of drifted over to the insular as we've discussed in I think offline conversations. I don't think this has ever been recorded, but the uh Celtic god of Tyrannis. Um I wanted to let you know I found I was doing research for something else, and I found historically, or I should say hitherto in my linguistic studies, I have thought the word tyrannus is a Latin um cognate or loan word or something into the Celtic. But I I found a line from Tara or Tyranus, the root, which means land or earth and in Latin as you as you know, through uh the Proto-Celtic and the Proto-Indo-European language. So there's two lines that run in Tyrannus doesn't have to be, if these two lines exist, which I think they do, tyrannus doesn't have to be purely Latin in origin. It really could have a Celtic language root, um, which indicates I thought it was an onomographia. What what do you mean like what do you mean by that? Just like true source?

Todd Elloitt 7:04

Tyranus Thorcuna! All of them are like such ex explosive words, you know, such explosive thundering words. And it is it is cognate also with Thor and Thunor and Donar.

D. Ffrith Griffith 7:18

Right.

Todd Elloitt 7:19

And you know and um in Spanish the word for thunder is terreno. So I mean, and those are all Indo-European languages too, so yeah, it is interesting. And I did find um it was symbol and mystery and Celtic art or something like that, and there was a whole bunch about Tyrannus inscriptions and about Tyrannus with the insular cult Celts.

D. Ffrith Griffith 7:42

Yeah.

Todd Elloitt 7:42

Now I I you're the expert in the in this region, but but uh I'm I mean continental Celts, but the insular Celts don't really have that, do they? They have how do you say the doida? Yeah.

D. Ffrith Griffith 7:54

Yeah, like it kind yeah, it it's it is it's interesting because something that I has been a focus of my study is um most of these languages, if not most all of these languages, obviously come from this Indo-European root that we call Proto-Indo-European, the language. So Latin, right, is a grandchild of Proto-Indo-European. Greek is a grandchild through Proto-Hellenic, Latin is through Proto-Italic, and then Italic kind of jumps around Latin and also inherits Latin, the modern Italian language. Irish or Guelga is the same thing as Latin. It's the grandchild of the Proto-Indo-European language. And so if you can run the linguistics up the family tree, so modern Guelga, modern Irish, all the way from modern through old through Proto-Celtic through Proto-Indo, and then you can say see do that same thing with modern Italian, modern Italian, Latin, Proto-Italian, Proto-Indo, you can trace a singular source of thought. Now, not that all Proto-Indo-European grandchildren speaking languages like the Italians and the Irish, let's say, come from the same people, but rather that the same linguistic can be traced through different lines to reach the same end, which is really interesting. It shows a commonality of ancient human origins. And I don't mean ancient as in 4,000, 6,000 years ago. I mean much older than that. And then the interesting thing happens when those lines don't exist. So what I've hitherto thought was that Tyrannus is a proto-Hellenic through Latin term that was brought into the continental Gaels, the Gauls of modern day France that then migrated to the insular Celtic tradition, the islands of you know, Ireland and man and Scotland and a little bit of Britain, a little bit in Wales too, much later, almost like in this post-Renaissance, almost early Romantic era sort of past reimagination. But if that's not the case, and the Proto-Celtic runs all the way through the Proto-Indo-European, just as these other terms that bear that that energy to them also run back to the Proto-Indo-European, it uh it it shows both commonality and particular uh linguistic development, right? So, like in the continental areas of Proto-Celtic, it went one way, in the insular it went another, in the Italian peninsula, you know, it went another way, in the Spanish region, obviously it went a very different way, but it all has that singular source. And so tracing those sources, those family trees, is of great interest to me because it one shows migration, two, it shows human interaction over the last maybe 10,000 years. Barry Cunliffe is a um insular Celtic archaeologist that you've probably run into. It sounds familiar. He he believes so many, many argue that the Proto-Indo-European language family is a east-to-west spread. He argues that so that that would mean that a lot of the Western European cultures, all the way from the Norse to the ancient Irish, let's say, as two examples, that they came from a far more eastern source. Um the Caucasus Mountains, let's say, is is one theory.

Todd Elloitt 11:07

Like Central Asia, yeah.

D. Ffrith Griffith 11:08

Central Asia, exactly. And uh what Barry Cunliffe is using, uh, both archaeology and a little bit of linguistics too, is a show that um it was more or less a uh patchwork of linguistic evolution and that the Irish language actually moved east, uh moved east, and then was contacted by migrating western farmers, and then that the confluence was a cauldron of sorts, which is another interesting way to look at it.

Todd Elloitt 11:32

That makes sense too.

D. Ffrith Griffith 11:33

Yeah, there's a lot of interesting things because what what what you and I, and and sorry, I don't know if this is applicable necessarily to the total universal topic at hand, but something that Americans have such a hard time realizing is Ireland feels big, right? The Irish identity to some degree is big. It's been squashed for thousands of years, but it it it remains very broad-chested, if you will. But Ireland is less in size than South Carolina. And I drive through South Carolina without thinking, right? You could be in Ireland, and my my mother's family is from Poland, she's full Polish, and uh, you can drive if you could drive if the ocean wasn't there, but you could drive from Ireland all the way to Poland, which is a world away. But you and I are that same distance apart. Where I'm in in Virginia and you're in Kentucky, and Kentucky and Virginia, we touch each other. Yeah, yeah. We're the same place, right? I mean, you're on the opposite side of the Cumberland Plateau, if if if that could be kind of pictured, but like we're at we're we're so close to each other. And so there's so much driving all the way to get to your place. Yeah, there's so much movement and synthesis and cauldron creation and how that language, why a word went this way, that, you know, or to into to to mean this in that direction and to mean that in this other direction. Like it's it's it's revealing on the personal identities of what has historically in the modern era been seen as a singular European genetic, which uh is not at all true, right?

Todd Elloitt 13:07

No, true, no. And it never has been. I mean, uh all those all those Indo-European languages, too. One of the things interesting things that happened is while there might be some cultural similarity between people from India to Ireland due to some Indo-European heritage, when those invading Central European horsemen contacted the indigenous people of those regions, what resulted was not a so much of a conquering as a blending. So you get a lot of you get a lot of material that in say Ireland or any of the any of the nations, any of the ethnic groups, Indo-European ethnic groups, that is derived from the people that were there before. Right. The you know, like the there was a Maria Gambutas, the the archaeologist talked about there there was a old Europe that was matriarchal and agricultural, and this is what the the horse nomads, the Indo-European horse nomads con contacted, and to the to the extent that the people of the so-called conquered regions retained their previous identity, they retained parts of that previous pre-European pre-Indo-European culture, like Ireland is strongly and if you read if you read Irish mythology, it as you as you know, it's the women are very strong, that like female figures are very powerful, and that is not doesn't wash with some of the some of the stories of Indo-European cultures.

Beltane Timing And Star Calendars

D. Ffrith Griffith 14:47

Yeah, and and and so it's like this singular genetic that blends particularly over tens of thousands of years that I think through language, because it's it's been colonized, and and I and use that word maybe a little bit less particularly than than I should, but it's been conquered and reduced and singularized and linearized and forgotten and pushed aside and marginalized. That's what I mean by colonized, I guess. And so through language, right, we can start to unferl this this this idea of what this really actually means. Um like I saw somebody talking today and it made me so angry. I I let these things get me angry, but somebody was online today talking about how they're not celebrating um Beltane or Baltania um because it's a modern holiday of the of the Gaels, the modern general Celtic regions. They were, I think, Irish, saying that the uh Irish government in the 1950s solidified the celebration of quote May Day with Beltagna and just moved on. And I commented and and I and I said, I'd encourage you. You you and I guess this pulls us into a little bit of the conversation I hand today in in in your book, The Cunning Farmer. But I said if you look at the orientation of the cosmos, you will you will see that the two center points of the Celtic wheel or Irish wheel of the year surround the rising and setting of Pleiades. You have Sawin and then Baltania. You could celebrate May Day in the modern sense if you would like to. I don't encourage you to, but feel free, you can do those things. But Baltania runs back through the history of Pallades, which is a story that humanity has held for a hundred thousand years, maybe more, depending on you know which area of the world you go to. And so when you're celebrating the two fire ceremony of the beginning of May, what you're really celebrating is the rise of the masculine, burning off the death womb of the feminine, the birth of the year in the terms of lightness, of masculinity, of strength, of heat, of fire, things like this. The technical birth of the year, I guess, is Sawin, when you're born into the dark period womb, and that's your incubation period, I guess. But the the explosion, the manifestation of the year is what we're celebrating. So, like, I'm not asking you to celebrate May Day, but if you want to have a fire and celebrate the Pleiades rising into the masking of the sky, like now is your time. Don't just push aside these ancient customs because of the modern traditions that you feel like in your way.

Todd Elloitt 17:12

Well, it's it's also the the Pleiades is one is one thing. The other thing is that it just so happens that the cross corner points, the Celtic cross corner points are are between, exactly between the solstices and the equinoxes. Right. So as as the sun moves across the celestial equator in its northward journey on the on the um spring equinox, it reaches its halfway point towards its the summer solstice on well, what used to be old, what they they talk about in in Ireland, they talk about or other places they talk about old style Bell Tane and old style Sawin, which is about a week later. Right. Um which we can we can look at that in in the astrological calendar um because that's a convenient way to to to find when the sun reaches that midpoint, but it's not on May 1st anymore. It's moved because of calendar reform, the reform between the Julian and the and the Gregorian calendar. It's moved, it's about May 7th or something like that. It's uh the actual solar beltane.

D. Ffrith Griffith 18:18

Yeah, you have solar beltane, and then you have this very finicky star cluster. I have a dear friend, uh Maori with Waitah descent, uh Shilate Zane is her name down in New Zealand. And the um um I believe they call the Pleites Maturaki, Mataraki. I think that's the name, and I think I'm close enough to the pronunciation of it. But mataraki, it's the mother of the culture. Anyways, their year begins when the Pleiades rises into their sky. Now they're in the southern hemisphere, so it's a little bit different. Um, but she she jokes with me. It's a very painful joke because the Maori have been, you know, having problems with the New Zealand government probably since the beginning of New Zealand. But the New Zealand government, in recognition of the Maori celebration of the birth of the year, which is the rise of Mataraki, they solidify the date of that celebration to a particular moment. And obviously, as anybody like you can understand, that's not the point. Mataraki will rise into the morning sky when she likes. It's always a little bit different, it's a little skewed depending on so many other variables. And uh Shalita Zaina, this my my dear friend, she says that the point of the new year is to join the dawn. You run out at 4 a.m. as a people, as a community, as a singular Maori, and you look at the eastern sky and you say, or maybe for them it's the western sky, I don't know how that goes, but you look at the sky and you say, Is it today? And then you stand there and you stare into the darkness and you feel the darkness, the cool breath of the early morning, right? And then the Pleities or Mataraki don't rise. And so you all go home and you say, No party today, there's it's not the new year. And you continue to do this until Mataraki rises, and then you celebrate the new year. And so it's a period of waiting. Like that's that's the point of it, right? So like to celebrate even Beltanya on a singular day is still missing the nuance of what it really should be. Because like there's days of solidification, like the summer solstice is a day that we can pretty much time to an exact second. Um, even right, Stonehenge and thousands of other ancient geographs, geoglyphs, we can time that up. But star cluster seems to be a little bit distant star clusters seem to be a little bit more complex.

Todd Elloitt 20:22

Well, it's a it's a sedereal calendar, and the Egyptians use that a similar system. In fact, I think so it that's affected by procession, so your date is going to move those those move backwards in the order of against the order of the zodiac. One I think it's one degree every seventy-five years, so the day is gonna slowly change every year. Every you know, and and an old cult like a culture of extremely old culture like the ancient Egyptians that used a sidereal calendar, they would get they would get a little their their their calendar would change so much over thousands of years that it was no longer time to astrology. I mean to um to the seasons anymore. So they had to they had to you know you you have to bring the solar calendar at that point. And all that.

D. Ffrith Griffith 21:17

Yeah, do a little reset.

Todd Elloitt 21:19

Do a little reset, yeah.

unknown 21:21

Yeah.

Todd Elloitt 21:22

Zodiac's the same way, like from the time when when uh astrology was first codified to now, I believe that there's a twenty-four-degree difference in the positions of the signs as they were fixed in the you know, 2,000 years ago to where they are now. So that's the difference between the tropical zodiac and the sidereal zodiac. And some some people, like notably Hindu astrology, uh still uses the sidereal zodiac, but in order to plot, in order to plot the difference to make precision calculations, you still have to know the tropical. Position based on some re some like reference point, just as a coordinate system. It's interesting that they're all dependent.

D. Ffrith Griffith 22:07

Yeah, it's also just like a reminder, I think. At least for me. The heavens seem to be so constant, so stable, so strong. And and yet even they operate under the fluidity of time and space and being and life and animacy.

SPEAKER_02 22:25

Yeah.

D. Ffrith Griffith 22:25

It's a it's a good reminder, I think.

Todd Elloitt 22:29

Well, when people first discovered the and this is well for a topic of chapter four, uh not not too far. When people first discovered procession, um I imagine they were disconcerted by it because at the same time that procession was being noted by astronomers and astrologers, the idea of something has to be moving that. Like if the stars are moving, if the eighth sphere, which we talked about last time, which is supposed to be immutable and eternal, the eighth sphere of the fixed stars is moving, there's a force greater than the stars out there that has to be moving it. So the only thing so there has to be some like super powerful god that is moving the cosmos. And it was at this time that Mithraism got big rose to popularity in the in the Roman Empire. And I don't I don't have the book with me right now, but I think there was, if I remember correctly, there was some idea that Mithra was the pole mover. Mithra was the god that was powerful enough to turn the heavens.

D. Ffrith Griffith 23:32

Oh, I didn't know that.

Todd Elloitt 23:34

Like a super powerful cosmic deity that that was making this slippage happen.

D. Ffrith Griffith 23:40

Yeah, space space has always interested me. I don't know how to say that without sounding like an idiot, like a complete fool, but space has always really interested me. Like dark matter and black holes and how certain things are moving and yet at the same time influenced by other things that are moving in different directions. I mean, it's just it's really it's really an interesting thing that we have the ability to understand our life being affected by such ethereal bodies that are not ethereal. It it's it's like this this two-way walk with a ghost. Sorry, so what?

Todd Elloitt 24:19

They're ethereal in the old sense.

unknown 24:22

Yeah.

Todd Elloitt 24:22

Because the ancient people used to do they were, as we talked about last time, made of ether.

Chapter Four Setup And Roadmap

D. Ffrith Griffith 24:26

Yeah. Yeah, in the literal sense. Um this is this is my happy place, and and and I have to startle myself out of it because we'll never get to chapter four here. Um and so let me rudely step on both of our tongues and uh we're not too far. We're not yeah. So chapter four is the moon, the mistress of magic, understanding lunar energies. Um really wonderful chapter. I don't know if you would say it this way, but when I was rereading it in preparation for our conversation, it it feels like this is the first moment to me in the book where I don't want to say that the other chapters were not informative from a practice perspective, but this one really gets into it. This one really dives into not necessarily what you should plant at what sooner or you know, lunar um mansion or whatever it's called, but to some degree it does. I mean, we're you you really do dive into the practice of applying this sacred, let's say, view of the heavens, uh the applic application of the cosmos into the daily life of agriculture or just like intentional magic, as as you as you get into with curses and blessings and things like this. So maybe for this episode, we can begin with some of the introductory material in here. So for instance, you know, definitions of things, what are moon signs, things like this. And then as the conversation falls on, I think it'd be cool to open up the floor to you to talk a little bit more, I don't want to say practice-based, but your feet a little bit more in the soil, your hands in the soil, and dive into um maybe working with the moon phases, what does waxing and waning, what are the the the the mansions and and and and and kind of end in that perspective. Yeah. Does it does that make sense? Does that resonate with you?

Todd Elloitt 26:15

Yeah, this is this is something I can wrap about pretty well, pretty easily.

D. Ffrith Griffith 26:20

I think I think the first thing that I would like to touch on, and it's on the first page of this chapter, chapter four, which is page 48 for those reading along with us, is you present a definition of magic that blends science and art and change into the conformity of will by Alistair Crawley. Is that how you pronounce his name? And you differ from that a little bit in your own.

Defining Magic Beyond Willpower

Todd Elloitt 26:46

He always say crawley it runs with Holy. Oh, okay.

D. Ffrith Griffith 26:50

Got it. You differ from that a little bit. You you you you stand back from it and you present in complimentary but alternative view. I don't want to say it's antagonistic, but can we start there? What what is magic? How is it historically seen and how does it work through in your in your life?

Todd Elloitt 27:08

So Crowley, he's he's famously said that the science and it is the magic is the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with the will. Because Crowley was all about will. And I I think that's a good definition, but uh I think practically it's it's excessively um broad because every willful act is then therefore a magical act. And he says that in magic and theory and practice. Um his point was when you extend your will or make your will so powerful and unified that you can do anything that uh uh occurs within your will, that that's like the true art of the magician. But I just think practically that's that's a very broad definition. And I think what we really mean about magic when we talk about magic is we're we're trying to cause change in conformity with our will by mysterious or occult means. I mean, um lifting up a glass because I want to lift up a glass or pushing something out of your way is not necessarily magic if you're using physical force. Um we're talking about non-physical forces, mysterious agents of causation or things like that. Things that where it's not it's not really obvious how performing a ceremony on the full moon is gonna get you during a waxing moon is gonna get you um a pay raise. There's no there's no causal mechanism for that that's obvious. So as I said, the bet the better definition might be that magic is the science and art of causing change in reality according to will by occult means. So that's our that's our um definition of magic for the book. I I noticed that a lot of books on magic have to start start out and define magic um at right at the beginning, and my book is no different. So from there, we want to talk about using the moon, constructing rituals.

What Occult Really Means

D. Ffrith Griffith 28:58

Yeah. Let me stop you just real quick. I want I want to ask one simple question. For our I well, I think you and I understand this term, but for our listeners, when you say a cult, there is the cultural understanding of a cult, and then there's a very simple definition of a cult. What do you what do you mean when you say by a cult means?

Todd Elloitt 29:17

Oh, thank you for clearing that up because it's almost a scary word.

D. Ffrith Griffith 29:19

Culturally it is.

Todd Elloitt 29:21

Guys with goat-headed masks and black robes and stuff. No, it really just literally means hidden. So it's it's that which isn't obvious. It's um so uh there's physical, there's physical laws and physical science, and then there's occult science. And occult science has to do with forces that aren't physical or um that are somehow mysterious. And in fact, um in fact, I have a I have a lodestone here, and this is just a magnetic stone, and people used to talk about lodestones have occult virtue, right? They have a hidden power that you can't see that makes little pieces of metal move. So it's just a magnet, and now we've we've expanded our our understanding of science to include magnetism, but um, it's still pretty mysterious. But now that we know that that's a physical property of a magnet and not an occult property, but occult. And people also used to think like if you say took laudanum and got sleepy, that was because the poppy plant has the occult virtue of making you sleepy. It was like it was an unknown or hidden mechanism. But now it's not hidden anymore. We know that we know there's alkaloids in the poppy that cause that cause your nervous system to kind of shut down or or go to sleep and that numb pain and things like that. It's not it's not so much an occult virtue anymore, but we still have occult virtues that for instance, we talked about astrology last week. We we talked about how the movements of the stars can cause change on Earth. Um so so we so when we talk about occult virtue, we're talking about non-physical change, uh more of a spiritual mechanism of causation than a physical mechanism of causation.

D. Ffrith Griffith 31:09

Do you Do you think the separation of those two, let's contrast occult with physical science, needs to be maintained? Or do you see the eventual suppression of all occult means into science?

Todd Elloitt 31:25

Isn't that what Arthur Arthur C. Clarke said that any significantly advanced form of technology will appear as magic to some to a less advanced culture. Um so we don't understand telepathy and mental powers now, but one day we might have a scientific understanding of how those work. So yeah, that's possible. Um that's possible. Do you see that as progress or decline? I mean, I would definitely think if if we could figure out how how psychic psychic powers or PK or telepathy or something like that worked, uh I mean, our science has gone come a long way in those departments. I mean, in that department, people have countered, they have uh quantified there's been a lot of research done where they've actually shown statistical evidence of psychic phenomena. Um and I it's not my it's not really my uh realm of expertise, but uh I think that would be progress. Yeah, I think that'd be great if we could if we could demonstrate that physically. But sometimes magic is not an amenable to laboratory conditions because uh well, there's the whole trickster that somebody I don't remember the fellow that wrote the book named Tri called Trickster, The Trickster and the Paranormal, but it's really hard to measure because the phenomena, as he calls it, plays tricks. It doesn't really like to be measured. Um and it's kind of like somebody also likened performing ma uh you doing magic in the lab to summoning a demon in a cathedral. It's just not the right place to do that. Yeah, I like that.

D. Ffrith Griffith 33:12

I like that. You know, it it's uh it also seems to play a little bit weirdly with will, because I know if if you're trying to do science well and you're well funded to do it well, you you have to present a will. Like I'm willing to try, I'm willing to attempt, I'm willing this into motion. You know, when I put A and B in a beaker, it explodes. And now we know the chemical competition composition of this particular exploding chemical, right? Like composition, excuse me. Um but with magic, like you were talking about Crawley, like in the idea of the will and him being a proponent of the will, it seems like a lot of what magic is as well is not foregoing the will. Of course, you're trying to do certain things at certain times, right? They were going to talk about this, but it it's almost like the suppression of the dominance of the will. And so it just seems to have a little bit of a contention there with scientific inquiry in the true modern post-Enlightenment sense.

Todd Elloitt 34:07

I've heard and and I don't really know about the philosophy of science or whatever here, but I've heard people say that will even comes into if you're if you're performing a an experiment and that often it's not that replicable because the will of the scientists does come into it. That that uh isn't there something called the replicability crisis in science today, where a lot of foundational experiments are have been attempted to be re replicated using the same the same procedure, and they haven't been able to replicate them. I mean, especially in pharmacology and things like that.

D. Ffrith Griffith 34:47

Yeah, I don't know. I'm sure I'm sure I I I I fully believe in the complexities of human life, let alone the life that makes us. Yeah.

Todd Elloitt 34:54

I think the universe, even scientists, wants to do what you want, what the scientists want them to do, and sometimes that that probably skews the results.

D. Ffrith Griffith 35:03

Yeah.

Synchronicity As A Mechanism

Todd Elloitt 35:04

You know, like you have set up this elaborate experiment to prove this pet theory of yours, and and it gets proven, but somebody else 50 years down the road tries to prove it again and they can't replicate your results because they're not you. And the time is different, and the you know, maybe the planetary hour is wrong or something. Um I mean it's a spe it's a mysterious universe, and it and it is it is at least in part mental. Um, but I I think another thing about magic is that you know, we have to lean heavily on the concept of synchronicity to explain magic because uh famously I don't I think I have a definition of synchronicity somewhere in the book. Um, but uh Carl Jung famously coined this concept, came up with this concept called synchronicity, which is when two events happen coincide in time that are linked acausally by a symbolic element. Oh, for instance, your the famous example he gives is the woman who his patient who was dreaming about a scarab and was explaining to him, and she was a skeptic, she didn't believe in all his all of his uh mystical theories, and and uh she was resistant to his his um method, and she was explaining this dream that she had about an Egyptian scarab, and at that moment, knocking on the on the door of the of his of his consultation room, knocking on the window of his consultation room was a an insect called a rose chafer, which is the European member of the scarab family, a brightly colored, shiny little beetle like a June bug, knocking on the and he said he opened the window and and grabbed it and he said, Here's your scarab right here. And he said that she she ended up believing in his method and and sort of allowing it to work for her after that, because it was it was a coincidence of the symbolic motif of the scarab into the physical reality of their session at that moment. And you know, every one of us has had tons of experiments like that. And it it's my contention that that's how magic works, that we when we do magic, we set up conditions for synchronicities to happen. Like we line up, and I think I might have made this this point last time, so I don't want to I don't want to belabor it, but synchronicity is famously a causal, so there's no link between your ritual, as I said earlier, and your promo your pay rays, but you do the ritual and you get the pay raise. You know, you do the ritual and you you get the desired result. And the ritual involves min manipulating symbolism, um timing, uh the moon phase, and putting all stacking all these symbolic elements together so you get a desired result in your life. And I don't know, that's pretty mysterious, and it's definitely a cult.

Ritual Symbols And Magical Correspondences

D. Ffrith Griffith 38:20

One thing on the next page that you talk about is the difference Yeah, the difference between intention and then the symbolic elements. Right, because we're talking about will, and I think a a lot of this could be summarized as in, you know, the intention of the magician or the intention of the scientist. But you you you you handle this well, I think, on page 50, um, talking about hermetic magic. Um I don't have the exact quote underlined, but somewhere in this paragraph you talk about constructing rituals with harmonious elements, symbolic, oh, here it is in the kind of towards the top. We construct thematic rituals with harmonic hom harmonious symbolic elements to link our minds to the archetypal forces of the cosmos, and we perform them at particular times and seasons, and you continue on. What what what what is the inadequacy of intention and and maybe what is symbols as elements in the aid of that?

Todd Elloitt 39:19

Well, a lot of people believe in manifestation, and I do too. And the idea that, you know, like the the idea of um affirmations or you know, you know, that famous that famous uh movie The Secret, where you will just yeah, you know, I I want to get a better job, I'm going to get a better job. You just tell yourself every day using affirmations that this or that desired change is going to happen for you. And that is magic. It's really basic magic. I mean, I think even praying for something is magic. But what what I'm talking about here in the book, and what most magicians are talking about, is a little more involved than that, where we we yes, we have the intention, but the intention is linked with symbolism that connects us with the divine powers of the universe that can help us. We're not just relying on our own our own mind and our own consciousness, which is powerful, but we're we're linking our mind and our consciousness to a larger, larger minds and consciousnesses to bring about the results that we that we desire. So greater forces. We're not just relying on our own, you know, we can't really do that much by ourselves, but but if we rely on, as I said, something greater, that something greater helps us get what we want out of life.

D. Ffrith Griffith 40:43

Yeah, and in the next paragraph, you say in constructing our rituals, it is not enough to just have the right intentions. We need more. We need to use the right incense, the correct herbs, the right colored candles. We make particular symbols to connect with the proper spiritual forces, etc. I I wonder how how does one understand the right incense or the right herbs or the right colored candles or the particular col uh symbols?

Todd Elloitt 41:11

Oh. Um that's we need you need reference books for that, I I think. I mean, um a lot of people I think a lot of practitioners today kind of wing it too. I I see I see a lot of people uh spell a lot of people publish their spell works spell work on Insta Instagram, and you know, it seems to be all over the place, but um I'm a bit of a traditionalist when it comes to that. I I think we would use the three books of occult philosophy, which I quote actually in this in these very paragraphs here where he talks about you know the divine names and the and the incenses that are congenital to each of the planets, planetary hours and all this. And then another reference book that is um also a big thing is uh Alex Crowley's 777, which has tables and tables of uh Kabbalistic um associations. Um looking at so if you if you say this uses the Kabbalah more than Agrippa more, he uses the he discusses the Kabbalah, but he's more more about the planets and which there's there's over. I mean all the all the all the sephiro to the Kabbalah are associated with a planet too, so it's basically basically boils down to the same thing. Um so so there's two sources that you can get to get the right incense or the right colors of candles, or um those those are two very excellent resources. And and I I think some of it is having confidence also in your ritual. Um because as Agrippa says in this paragraph that I'm quoting, uh I think he says it in there it's the mind, man's mind when it is most intent on any work through its passions, effects, is joined with the mind of the stars and the intel intelligences. And being so joined is the cause of that wonderful virtue to be infused into our works. Um, so it's the mind that is connecting the symbols of your ritual to the greater forces in the cosmos. Your mind is sort of like the alchemical vessel where the work is taking place, the mind of the magician. Um and I think that I think having the right ritual elements makes you feel like you're not just winging it. It makes you feel more powerful and more confident. And somewhere in Agrippa's work, which I I don't have it, I don't have the quote to hand, he says that faith is the most important mindset to have for the operator. You've m you've got to believe it, it's gonna work.

D. Ffrith Griffith 43:40

It's like the mana the manifestation is so important. And it yet at the same time, it's so utterly impractical when it's alone. That which I think speaks to the wholeness of magic, just the wholeness of being. You know, the magic of being is wholeness. Say it, say that both ways.

Todd Elloitt 43:55

Yeah, and this is just one these are the the two books I show, they're just two systems those. So many different systems out there, but the important thing I think more than more than one system being better than another is that you kind of just pick one that resonates with you and and work with it. And I try I tend to come at it from a sort of traditional Renaissance or Western um occult philosophy approach because I really think that's cool. You know, that's just sort of my my home base. And also it makes me feel confident, confident that in what I'm doing.

D. Ffrith Griffith 44:32

Well, let's talk about the moon. So on page 51, I have this highlighted. I think this is a really cool, a really a special way to begin this. Um you have a quote. It reads, uh I'm just capturing my thoughts here. Apologize. The quote reads Ancient magical practices suggest that the moon may actually have been conceptualized as a celestial uterus with its monthly swelling and shrinking, its life-giving moisture, the occasional redding, like the color of blood, etc. What is the moon? Not what is it, but who is it, you know, how is it? And then maybe let's progress through moon water and then into the phases and then the mountain and the mountains, excuse me, the mansions.

Todd Elloitt 45:17

So the moon is the, I think we talked about this last time, is the connection between the upper realms of the heavens and the earth. So the moon stands as a mediatrix between the heavens and the earth. So all of the energies of the planets have to pass through the sphere of the moon before they get to the earth, which is why. And she's also in charge of moisture, she rules over moisture, celestial moisture, I mean terrestrial moisture, uh, like dew and rain and tides and the moisture in our bodies. And um people actually believe that moon that the moon um made dew happen, that it was the moon that created dew. So that's why that we talked the quote that I have in here talks about the virus lunare, uh the like growth principle of the moon. Where's my I keep I keep taking my bookmark out of here. Um yeah, so the classical forces describe practices such as drawing down the moon in order to capture the moon's power for erotic magic and for the production of lunar foam. There's a lot of um classical sources that talk about making lunar foam or or drawing down the moon was was two tricks that the was two, um, not tricks, but uh I think actually the ancient the ancient witches of Thessaly in ancient Greece had a ritual called drawing down the moon that they would do where they would make the appear to capture the moon. Um and Apuleus quote has a quote in here by sorcery enchant enchantment, the swift rivers might be forced to run against their courses, the sea be bound and immovable, the winds to lose their force and die, the sun to be restrained from his natural journey, the moon to drop her foam upon the earth, and the stars to be pulled down from heaven, and the day to be darkened, and the night to be made to continue forever. And Dew was believed to fall from earth to moon. And I have I have really seen um I've really seen that that seemed to happen on some nights. There was a night, not last summer, the summer before, where we had a I believe it was a full moon in Pisces, so it was in August or September. And um we had a full moon in Pisces and it was a lunar eclipse, and it was there was a remnants of a hurricane that or a storm system that were cut that were coming through, and we desperately needed rain. And uh I performed a little rain ritual, and at that moment the moon came out from behind a cloud, and the dew began to fall like rain from a clear sky. It was so strange. Like the storm sort of dissipated over us, but water was falling from the a clear sky. It was it was the oddest thing. I was and I it occurred to me that and it was a it was a penumbral lunar eclipse. So like the moon was barely even darkened. But it was so strange that the that the that was happening, the dew was actually falling from a clear sky under the moon. Like a drizzle. So strange. And and I was it was that I was like, this is the kind of thing that made the ancients think that the moon produced dew. Anyway, where are we going with that, Daniel?

Waxing Versus Waning For Results

D. Ffrith Griffith 48:45

What why don't we dive into um the idea of the waxing and the waning? That was a concept that was really interesting to me when I was rereading through this. So the waxing moon has the power of increasing, whereas the waning moon has the power of withering, right? And you know, I think a lot of people get excited for the full moon and the new moon. And it's interesting because a lot of ancient traditions, like I had a Lithuanian friend of mine who said in an aspect of their culture on the full moon, males don't go outside. Like it's very bad for a male to be in view of the full moon. Many other cultures hold in a very similar way. Um, it's just such a feminine thing. And then the the new moon is is is is more masculine for them. Anyways, my point is working with the moon is not just understanding the moon and, you know, is it full, is it new? You know, I think a lot of people understand like the strawberry moon and the stag moon and the, you know, all of these nice names for the moon that we have today that don't really make a lot of sense to our modern lives. But this idea of waxing and waning, having different characteristics and how that moon is actually relating to the physical entities and aspects of your life, I thought was really interesting. Can you can you describe that? It's on page 54 for those who have the book.

Todd Elloitt 50:01

So in um in occult science uh and in folklore worldwide, a waxing moon has the power of increasing, augmenting, and enhancing energy energies, as I say in the book, that you want to bring to manifestation. So if you're in agriculture or in magic, anything that you want to enhance or encourage, you would try to do it during a waxy moon. Um, like the example spell to get yourself a job or a promotion, you would do that during a waxing moon. But if you had a neighbor who was annoying and you wanted to get them to leave you alone, if you want to do a banishing spell for somebody who was being a pain in your butt, you would do that in the waning moon. Anything you want to decrease, so so again, to bring it back to agriculture, if we want our plants to grow big and strong and healthy and above the ground, of course, we would plant them in the in the waxing of the moon. But if we want to kill weeds and eliminate weeds, we'd try to perform that in the waning moon. Now, there's a whole lot more to it than that, and there's different s systems of lunar agriculture, but basically in a nutshell, and that that's worldwide, that that's found in all kinds of cultures, that that the waxing moon increases and the waning moon decreases. Um it's one of those things that is so universal to probably be true, and that to actually describe some esoteric and occult factor of reality, I think. So um, yeah. And the waning moon has the effect of withering, drying, and suppressing unwarranted forces. And the cosmos of the waning moon is conducive to operations like warding, in which the operator presents wishes to protect the space from dangerous spiritual, physical forces and banishings, and and also like harmful, harmful magic, if God forbid you have to do that, um that's that would be the time to do it if you if you really want to put a whammy on somebody that you want to do that in the in a waning moon.

D. Ffrith Griffith 52:09

Uh I think uh repeating a phrase that I used in the last episode, this um this this very petty college bar Thursday night view of astrology. Um, I think is what a lot of people carry, you know, when when you're like, oh, what's your birth sign or whatever? And and and I think your book speaks really well to the groundedness of it and and also the the the cosmicness of it too, if if if that's a word. But on this, on the same in the same section on page 54 and 55, you lay out, I think it's really cool. I mean, I think it's also uh an aspect of a quote um from the greater key of Solomon or something, but yeah, but like for instance, it says, like for love and grace and invisibility, the moon should be in a fire sign. So like Aries or Leo or Sagittarius, Sagittarius. It's a it's a really interesting view of this in the sense that the internal emotions which have external realities, physical reality. So love, for instance. Love is an internal emotion that has spiritual ramifications, that also has a physical essence on the outside of our body, also has both a spiritual and a physical tether to the cosmos via this idea of the moon, or maybe through the idea of the moon, if we can use that. So again, for love, right? The moon should be in a fiery sign, Aries, Leo, or Sagittarius for hatred, cancer, Scorpio, Pisces. And I think that's really interesting. Yeah, it's very it's very grounding to me in that non-college Thursday night bar kind of sense. And then the quote even gets on to more, which is it's a question I have for you. He says, But if these signs seem unto thee difficult to accomplish, it will suffice thee merely to notice the moon after her combustion or conjunction with the sun, especially just when she quits his beams and appears visible. And it gets on. And it it it's almost like in this occult setting, after having such a, and I don't mean this negatively, but such a mechanized view of occult magic. And I don't mean that net negatively in any way, but you know, when the moon is fiery and Leo, you can work with love and grace and invisibility, for instance. Let's just say that's that's mechanized, and again, horrible word, I know, but let's say it's mechanized to then have this qualifier that's like, but if these signs seem unto thee difficult to accomplish, there's other items. Like there's it's it's it's almost as if the author here, the greater key of Solomon, who you could tell us who that is, but it's it's like they're saying it's still a cult, meaning that this might seem scientific, but this is forever a cult. There's more here than just simply the linear arrangement of the heavens.

Todd Elloitt 55:04

Well, the the Key of Solomon, the Greater Key of Solomon, is they really simplify it's a it's a they really simplify the tradition of astrological magic to the point where it they make it a lot easier and they change the rules. I I've studied astrological magic, and um to work with lunar energies is a bit more complicated than all this. Um if you read the Picatrix, which is another another grimoire, an older grimoire dating from the 10th century in in Andalusia, it's a it's a really cool book. Um there's a there's chapters and chapters on working with the moon. I think there's an entire chapter on working with the moon in there. Uh there's chapters on lunar. I get a lot of content in the book from from the key from the Pikax. Um, but this is pretty simple. Uh, if you you basically work with it, the moon and an earth sign for invocation of spirits, works with necromancy necromancy and the recovery stolen property. Uh in a fire sign, you're working for love, grace, and invisibility. You know, water sign for hatred, discord, and destruction. For areas, experiments of a peculiar nature. You want it in an air sign. So, and but he says, he says that the waning or the waxing is the most important thing there. So he's simplifying. He's like, well, if you can't do it when it's exactly right, so suffice it to say that when it's waxing, it's good for uh construction and operation, and for waning, it's it's uh inner decrease, it's good for war, disturbance, and discord. So basically what we're saying here, so so the key of the author of the Kiev Solomon, which is who is probably not Solomon, by the way. Um, but yeah, we can guess. We can guess. Uh there's a there's a lot of debate about where it comes from, what it what its origins are. There's some interesting new work about it. Uh so you don't do anything when the moon is in conjunction with the sun, that is when the new moon is is new or in its opposition. Um so yeah, it's basically what we're saying here. Um but the interesting thing, and what struck me as counterintuitive is that when the moon's in a watery sign, especially Cancer and or or Pisces, the moon's in in high state in a good state of dignity, and Scorpio it's in fall. Um so I was wondering why you would want to do hatred and destruction, operations of hatred and destruction when the moon's in cancer, because I think that's a good moon. You know, that's a moon for planting, that's a moon for nurturing. So it was interesting that they that they said that. In fact, I I made a note that it was um counterintuitive because those are good signs for growth and fertility. And uh and and I said because she is powerful in those signs, and during the waning phase, her power her powers, as the ancients would say, conduce to corruption. So anyway, uh th those are some particular things that I thought there. Because uh we we in in astrology we have the concept of essential dignity where where a planet and the moon is a planet in astrology, is more powerful in certain signs than in others. So um the moon is very powerful in Taurus, in Taurus, and in Cancer, and somewhat powerful in Pisces, um, because it has triplicity dignity, but it is not powerful in Scorpio. Um it's it's in a hard place in Scorpio. I f I forget whether it's in fall or detriment, I think it's in fall. Um anyway, not to get too rambly about that.

D. Ffrith Griffith 58:55

It's so interesting. I I think your um qualification, if I can flip back to the page, um you might just you you say how you're here on the pay uh bottom of page 55. You might also just want to pick a time when the moon is a in a barren sign, a Mars or Saturn ruled sign, or even Scorpio, where although fertile, she has a certain dark dyn dynamism. And and you get into some of that that that I don't I don't want to say playtime, but it's so much of this has to be experimented with. Like you were saying, and I asked earlier, how do you know you know what is right or what what colors are right, or you know, if your ritual symbology is right, and and you you you had particular answers for yourself, but there's so many different viewpoints, there's so many different cultures that hold aspects of this and the full compendium of this, which is just a little bit contrapositive to the compendium of that culture. Like you to me, this is a um inhabiting of a life. It's not necessarily a dabbling of the fingers. And and it seems to me like inhabiting this life fully requires a lifetime. It's almost as if we used to have these cultures fully alive around us, but it it it it requires a lifetime of curious intelligence, play. I mean play, but experimentation, curious, intelligent experimentation, of course. It's not like you should just start walking out there and doing crazy things. But you know, be open to that too, I guess.

Curses For Pests And Farmer Reality

Todd Elloitt 1:00:30

Yeah, I I I I think I don't really have a um fearful attitude about these experiments. Um I think when I first kind of got started getting back into it, I was worried about blowback or bad effects. And I I've I've had some stuff go wrong, but I I like to play with it. Um and I've seen olders and betters warn against playing with it, but I I think it's I find it all very interesting, and um I I like to experiment. Uh so why would you want to do curses when the when the moon is in Pisces anyway? You might want to pick a time, that quote that we you just read, certain dark dynamism, I was talking about doing um negative or uh destructive magic, and I can think of nonviolent reasons why one would want to do that. Um as a farmer, we have to control growth of different species of animals and plants all the time. So if you say had an agricultural pest and and the old grimoires, the Picatrix, is full of talismans and operations to control scorpions and rats and things like that that pest animals and it flies. And if you wanted to say do a an a magic operation, because they didn't have they didn't have modern pesticides at the time. So if they would that that book is full of magic to control bad or negative or uh harmful animals and insects and things like that, and you would do that during a waning moon. I we have a lot of problems with ticks here. And a couple years ago, I made a lead talisman, like basically a defixio, a cursed talisman, and um I made it to control ticks during well, we still have ticks, and I think I have to make another one because they they came back with a vengeance, but um I made a tick talisman and I did it when the moon was in Scorpio, and uh it had a particular align with Mars and Saturn to release some negative energies. And on and I I put an image of a tick in the Latin name of a of the most common species of tick around here, which unfortunately has changed since then. We have some new ones that we didn't have a couple years ago. Um so yeah, I think I have a picture of the of the paper towels that I made there, but that is that is something you know what farmers ancient farmers used to do. Try to limit negative or uh harmful animals.

D. Ffrith Griffith 1:03:11

Yeah, I don't want to reduce anything that we've talked about, but I I think there's a very real, tangible hold that the human spirit needs to find a bit of sanity. And and sometimes busyness doing something with the intention and research and the curious intellect, as I just said, seems to provide a bit of that hold, even if maybe you don't achieve the results that you want to achieve. You know, for instance, a lot in our harvest ceremonies that we lead, the students who have never participated in in such a bloody affair, such a whole-bodied bloody affair, um, respond in certain ways that are new to them. It is as if their conscience and their soul is are uniting in a very new sense in a way that feels very ancient to their body, and and they do certain things. Like I had a dear friend of mine is a seminal from Florida, and uh she attended a um a harvest, a sheep harvest uh workshop, backyard homestead sheep harvest type workshop. And uh at the conclusion of the harvest moment, she turned uh instinctively, which it was new to her, but she turned instinctively and she faced south, maybe south, southeast, and she just started singing in in her old language. And I mean, the rest of us stopped. I mean, we don't it was it was powerful and she was crying and some other people started crying and it was very real for them. But my my point is there's that tangible foothold that that is so important, you know. Like even if that talisman that you created, maybe you did it wrong or you didn't know what you needed to know, or maybe you were off, or you know, whatever the fact is, maybe the ticks were more of a the trickster was at play, right? Like the point is it's still grounding you into place, right? And so like you were saying, there's this disconnect between manifestation and you know, getting the job or doing the magic and getting the job, but at the same time, they're also entirely tethered and connected. So it's like there's no one-to-one relationship, but there is. It's just not seen or visible or tenable or definable or something like that. I think the thing, the same thing is true where so much of the human experience and maybe the life's experience, I don't know, I can't speak for the rest of life, but so much, at least of the experience that I have lived, so requires it, so necessitates a foothold into hope that something like magic, I think, has the ability to foster, right? It's something to make the moon close, right? Like the the famous um It's a wonderful life, um Jimmy Stewart, right? the moon and pull the moon down. Like you can. You just yeah, you just did. You know, like you were talking the the the um ancient Thessaly, I think is what you mentioned, drawing down the moon. Like and that provides a certain level of grounded physical hope in something that was just spiritual up until then. And and I think that has a certain value to this body's experience in this clay form in this moment.

Todd Elloitt 1:06:31

You're like tuning yourself to the movements of the moon. I mean I I definitely observe it and know where it is most of the time in in the zodiac and what phase it's in and um know kind of what I can do during those times and keep it in the back of my mind all the time. What's the moon doing where's where's the moon? And you know regarding the regarding the tick the tick talisman I I was really just trying to play. I had a I thought I had a good time and uh to do to perform such a thing and I had the materials and I just wanted to play with it. And I I think they were they were reduced for a little while but they're back now. My wife got very sick from a Rocky Mountain spotted fever which I actually talk about in the book there. And so ticks are ticks are very which is a tick-borne illness for those who don't know and it's it's a very serious illness that can be it can be deadly and it's hard to diagnose too because it's it's kind of rare. It's like there's three case I think there were three cases in Kentucky the years we got sick. So it's not it's not something that they run into it our our local doctors and hospitals couldn't it took a while for them to diagnose it. In fact they just and in fact I kind of reading up on it went in there and was like hey you guys need to test for this and they're like oh yeah good idea. Yeah.

D. Ffrith Griffith 1:07:48

Yeah it's just it's a very unbelievably painful disease. I know some people who've who've gotten it I thankfully have not. But like we we go for a walk twice a day my family just you know around the wild and near the farm and just check on whatever we need to check on. And um ticks are obviously an omnipresent reality for us as well. And um Daisy Fleabane which is a wildflower that grows out here is said to repel ticks. I don't know how much science I imagine it would yeah I imagine it would the science you know I have no idea but but our young our youngest she's five sequoia this little girl she always walks around trying to find Daisy Flea and it's a fun thing it's very it's like a massive treasure hunt. Like find Daisy Flea Bane and rub it all over your body and have some fun doing it. And so she has this very energetic spirit of finding the white petal pink hearted flower you know and it it's it's rooting you know it's grounding it's it's it's tethering to the earth and clay that we are and and I think it has a very fine result. A dear friend of mine um she's from Brazil Thaisa Porto um one day we used to do a lot of ecological monitoring together traveling all over the country. So we have a had a lot of car time basically anyways we were we were discussing the the role of poison ivy in ecology and um and I think the same thing is true with ticks because our children ask us all the time like what what is the role of a tick? You know, because they understand death and you know we Morgan and I travel so often with harvests and things and we're basically at this point full-time butchers and so like the our kids are constantly around the idea of life and death and rebirth and they're just questioning what is the role of a tick. And Thaisa, my friend she is talking about poison ivy but I can't help but think that's about many things now thanks to her. But she says I wonder if poison ivy is here to make us notice. Right when like when you're walking through a field, you might just be walking through it. But the second if you're allergic to poison ivy, which most of us are when you the second you see poison ivy, you start walking slower and you start to pick where your feet go and you start to notice what else is growing around it and you become so much more present in the landscape out of self-preservation of course but that presentness in the landscape also yields a particular result which is groundedness, right, that we're talking about and I wonder if a part of the reason that magic is so powerful is it is that interconnecting force just like the moon is between the terrestrial plane and the in the spheres of the heavens that tethering connecting force that that this energy passes through. I wonder if magic is that maybe that same mediator between like the pureness of soul and the pureness of form. I don't know what do you think about that if magic is the is the interconnecting meaningness between like the spirit in in the body to use modern terminology.

Moon Water And Lunar Mansion Magic

Todd Elloitt 1:10:46

And maybe not the but I'm I'm happy for a not necessarily the only we we discussed the linking the linking force between the soul and the and the body last week yeah well magic involves the spirit and the spirit is the linking force so yeah absolutely it's the it's with it's what we use to do magic. So we're we're definitely we're definitely working on that connection between our our soul and the physical world. We're trying to cause a change yes absolutely that's a good way of looking at it Daniel I like that let's um I like that let's talk about the mansions. You mentioned that you wanted to talk about the moon water thing too so really briefly about that is that I've seen so many recipes for moon water and some of them were not very good and I just thought that I would like to we we've made moonwater I made stormwater the other night I thought that would be cool I just which all I did was set out some was set up set out a ball of water and a really powerful storm where moon moonwater is the same thing you set out a ball of water on the full moon. But I thought if I was going to do moon water which is which is dates back to this drawing down the moon and this virus lunare that the ancient ancient witches used to do um uh I just put my own method of making it there using Thomas Taylor's uh hinda orphochimda Selene and um incense and things like that instead of and trying to get your in intention because water water can is very sensitive to um receiving intentions and receiving energies. It's kind of like the same it's the same uh rationale for making holy water which we talked about last time with putting the putting the uh pendulum on there on the separate elements and it wouldn't move but when you when you blessed it so you're using basically using the moon to bless or to put her her vibration into water which you would use for spells and uh so just moving on from that uh to the lunar mansions so the lunar mansions as I explain in here is really an ancient lunar zodiac dating to either ancient Mesopotamia China or India I I think um I think scholars are divided about where they where the mansions were invented. Indian astrology has a 20 a system of 27 mansions and Arabic astrology has a system of 28. So basically the moon's the moon's um sidereal cycle where she goes from one one constellation to the same constellation is about 28 days 27 and some change 27 and the third or something like that. So basically it's like every day is a different stop along the moon's path where she passes through a different group of stars. And um so we also have as with the zodiac we have the tropical zodiac and the sidereal zodiac we also have the tropical mansions and the sidereal mansions. So basically as the moon is transiting a star the ancients believed she was transmitting that energy of that star, that group of stars for instance to Pleiades that's one of the mansions actually Alpharia so when the moon is passing through altharia she's transmitting the energies of that mansion to the earth um and the mansions have different qualities energetic qualities they have different magical uses and they have different practical uses much like much like the the almanac the farmer's almanac where the where the moon transiting a zodiac sign is good for planting harvesting getting your hair cut trimming your nails whatever having your dog bred or whatever whatever you want breeding livestock um whatever you want to do there's a good day for it the mansions are the same way. In fact it's an older system of of lunar lunar agriculture or lunar um electional astrology there's also a magical use for each mansion which are detailed in the Picatrix um in fact in two places in in chapter one and chapter four and or book one and book four of Picatrix there's a whole different set of mansions. So the mate the word mansion is more properly translated as station but it kind of sounds like the Arab word manazil um manazil is the plural manzeal is the singular so um the Arab and Persian world received the mansions from India or China um and they they connected I don't think I have this in the book but they connected it to an ancient system of lunar astrology from Arabia. They had their own system called the Anwa. So basically the um the Arabic astrologers took this system and made it their own um and it's really big in Arabic astrology. In fact you you use the lunar mansion what mansion the moon was in when you were born says something about your personality and your life also lunar magic lunar mansion magic is huge in um in Arabic astro magic which is what what we get from looks like we we got a reconnecting thing up there. Oh really I I can see you if if it matters yeah I can see you too we'll just keep going so um yeah as the moon travels through each station which is about a day uh it's 12 degrees and 51 minutes which is about a day's travel she transmits different energies so each mansion is good for different things. I know I've said that I'm trying I'm trying to pick up this train of thought here um but I I list a couple examples in the book there are 28 so I couldn't list them all um but you can get a hold of a copy of the pre Pika Tricks and you can see them. For instance, um when the moon is transiting the 16th mansion as a Bene, it's good for profiting in business. So when the moon is wandering through this mansion you make the figure of a man sitting on a throne and holy scales in his hands on a silver lamella.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:15

I actually have that in my wallet and I actually think I have let's see if I can find that one can't find a route yeah there it is.

Todd Elloitt 1:17:28

I have that in my wallet you won't be able to see it though I don't know why I'm pulling it out carry that in my wallet the little lunar mansion talisman um when the moon's winding through this mansion make the figure of a man sitting on throne holding scales his hands on a silver lamellos to funificate this with odorous things and show it to the stars every night until the seventh night saying you Azaruk make such and such happen with me accomplish my request and ask for things pertaining to the buying and selling of merchandise. No Azaruk is the name of that mansion. So actually this is the 7th Lunar mansion. But we have made a 16th mansion talisman and had really good sales on the farm that year at the farmer's market. It's probably time to make another one actually I've made what the 17th mansion one for for preventing a house to be broken into. We have a house on the farm that we don't live in and it's right on the road and I was concerned that some local narratives would break in there. So I've made this talisman and nobody's ever broken into there thank goodness so um there's another one for gaining victory uh I made that for a friend of mine and he's won a uh a global competition four times running now first place uh I won't say what it is because I don't want to reveal his secret but uh he as soon as I made him that one he he went he won the next year uh the next competition he went to so it seems to be pretty effective um but that's just magic for of the mansions but they're also again some of them are good for planting some of them are good for romance some of them are good for and you can find lists of these uh mansions and their uses in in other books um one good book is it has a list of the mansions the electional uses of the mansions is this one on heavenly spheres um by Helena Avalar and Luis Ribeiro Ribero and that's got a a table of the mansions in there which is very helpful for uh deciding what mansion you want to do things in um there's basically it's it's a little magical toolkit for uh because there's one's for planting there's talismans for planting the for for cursing for romance for friendship for success of business there's one for every kind of activity that you want to do the same rules so you would you would pick you would pick a time when the moon is transiting that mansion so um in the Pika Tricks it has the it has the tropical coordinates of the mansions and you so when the moon is passing through that mansion you would make it you would perform the ritual say the prayer burn the right incense make the right image on paper or on a metal talisman uh I actually had a little piece of silver that I made that on um and you would burn the proper incense and um my astrology teacher Christopher Warnock also also encourages making a note of what he he believes the mansions and and this is the this is the theory is that as the moon is trans transiting the mansion that it connects the earth to a certain spirit a spirit force which are called in Arabic Ruhaniyah that's the plural ruhaniyah I think is the is the singular and it it's the basically the angel or the spirit of the mansion. So as the moon is transiting that mansion that spiritual power is transmitted to the earth and my and Christopher Warnock says that he he he practices a devotion to those to those celestial spirits as the moon is transiting that mansion even if he's not making a talisman he just burns some incense and says a little prayer to the spirit of that mansion to maintain his connection with those and he says that that makes them more effective.

D. Ffrith Griffith 1:21:15

I think that's worth a shot too yeah it's so interesting you bring up Ecclesiastes chapter three in the book and I've uh you know everybody has their take on this on this chapter um from all different walks of life but it it's so interesting that there's 28 mansions 2728 generally 28 mansions of the moon and in Ecclesiastes chapter three Solomon writing I think it's verses maybe one through ten or something like this he lists 28 specific times or seasons right and like the number of sermons that I've listened to and it's so interesting that at the same time that Solomon is writing these 28 things, the the the Mesopotamian world, this ancient Israeli type world that he is a part of is also holding 28 specific times or seasons that the moon lives into right so like the the just for the listeners I think the the the the verse that I'm referencing begins with to everything there is a season, time for every purpose under heaven, a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to pluck, right? Like that's the rhythm of it. And he's laying out 20 different or 28 different times. And uh I don't know I I think I bring that up because number one, wow, like that's that's really interesting that it is really interesting that that collides right number two, it's really interesting also from like a feminine perspective, which we're not really talking about here, but like that also I think just needs to be acknowledged. And then in addition to that the lunar cycle yeah the lunar cycle exactly right and then in addition to that there's like this spiritual component right because you can read Ecclesiastes three and learn that like I mean you're not going to learn the specifics but like you you need to learn that when you plant is not when you harvest and there's a time for each and that time matters to the agrarian farmer and the person who needs to be eating it also needs to make sure that the agrarian farmer needs to be understanding these things and that has physical value but it also has spiritual value.

Todd Elloitt 1:23:10

Like this is a holy text to the Christian and I mean Jewish church as well so I wonder I didn't know about the Anwa when I wrote the book I've done a little more research on the mansions that since then um I didn't know about the Anwa but that is the that is the native the indigenous Arabian system of the lunar mansions and there were 28 of them and they were linked with they were linked with weather but also they would they would do activities and I wonder if this this verse of Ecclesiastes is not some reference to the Anwa because I I don't know exactly when it was written I I think it I think the Koholith might have been written in the second or third centuries before the common era. It's one of the later books of the Old Testament um not quite in Christian times but right immediately before I think I think it's they're fairly Hellenistic is that right I don't know um yeah and and also that that quote uh uh from the wisdom of Solomon also attributed to Solomon about about the unerring anyway I I think that that it might be a reference to the Anwa maybe probably not to the mansions because I don't think they would have gotten there yet um but it's it's entirely possible.

D. Ffrith Griffith 1:24:29

Yeah but but the truth there you know like that's that's the key. Meaning no matter what you call the particular star cluster like that star cluster has a spirit and so understanding the spirit is so much more important than understanding the name.

Todd Elloitt 1:24:43

Yeah and you want to do the right thing at the right time you and when you do the right thing at the right time you have the moment the momentum of the universe with you but if you're doing the right the right thing at the wrong time you're you're on your own and you're not as likely to succeed and that that's the whole that's the whole point of all this all this lunar stuff is to do the right thing at the right time. When the energies are working with you rather than working against you.

Book Recommendations And Closing

D. Ffrith Griffith 1:25:05

For people that might be interested in such a thing you've mentioned a number of books that you've used obviously your book is a fine place for people to start and hopefully they're buying it and reading it with us on this.

Todd Elloitt 1:25:15

But where where would you recommend for somebody listening that doesn't understand but wants to understand would you start with the um the Picatrix or however you pronounce that yeah the Picatri Picatrix I have it in two I have it in two I just this is by John Michael Greer and Christopher Warnock and Christopher is has been teaching me I've been learning astrology for him for several years. Of course John Michael we really appreciate he that those two translated for Latin with astrological commentary and I've been showing this other rival version of it but but get this one first it's actually cheaper and it's good. I I actually use both of them so there's two the two versions of Pikachu in English in English that both came out in the last oh I don't know 10 or 15 years. And they're both good. This one has an index and no and got paragraph numbers which is helpful but this one's also really good too um they're so similar that they're so similar in their English that they I get mixed up a little bit as to which one I quote I quoted them both throughout the book which annoyed my editors to no end.

D. Ffrith Griffith 1:26:16

I could imagine we'll put a link in the show notes to that I found it here.

Todd Elloitt 1:26:20

And then and then I I mentioned 777 which is also good on correspondes and and and what incense and what names and what plants and what colors to use for your rituals so that's another good one. And then Christopher Warnock has also a book about the about the lunar mansions which is really good and I don't have a physical copy of it um but any of Christopher Warnock's books are really excellent. Is it the mansions of the moon yes we'll put that in the show notes yeah yeah that's really good and then and then this is on traditional astrology but it has it has an updated um table of the lunar mansions and their names and what they're good for. And this is a great resource on astrology in general what's it called what's the title of the book it's called On the Heavenly Spheres by Helena Avalar and Luis Ribera and it's a really excellent book on astrology but somewhere in there is is a really handy table on the mansions because um some of the and I think it's gleaned from some of the and it compares the Tropical mansion to the Seviero mansions in in case you want to use both of them. Yeah and I think I just recently published a Substack article on planting by the moon and some thing more things about the mansion too and I don't think it's passed into I don't think it's I think the paywall is not up on it yet. So folks go to my Substack and look up that look at that uh article that I just put up about a month ago. Things things usually stay out of the paywall for about two months.

D. Ffrith Griffith 1:27:54

I'll uh I'll dive into it. I'll um see beyond the moon signs. Is that what its title?

Todd Elloitt 1:28:01

Yeah.

D. Ffrith Griffith 1:28:01

Magic. Astrology, magic, and the art of agriculture. Okay. Yeah. I'll put it in the uh the show notes so people can read that too. Wonderful. Well, thanks, Todd. This is um I mean, I think we have we have covered the chapter literally from beginning to end. And so I think I think this was really helpful. Thanks for thanks for doing that.

Todd Elloitt 1:28:23

And the next one's on planting planting with the signs more specifically, if we want to go into that next time.

D. Ffrith Griffith 1:28:29

Yeah, yeah, we'll dive into chapter five, chapter five next and keep moving through. I mean, we'll get into weather magic and all sorts of things.

Todd Elloitt 1:28:36

So this is oh, that's one of my favorite topics.

D. Ffrith Griffith 1:28:38

Yeah, well, I'm excited.

Todd Elloitt 1:28:39

All right, well, thank you, Daniel. It's been it's been great talking to you. As always, can't wait to come back and do it again.