Ritam Studio Podcast With Jonni Pollard and Carla Dimattina
Jonni Pollard & Carla Dimattina bring a combined 50 years of experience together on the Ritam Studio Platform. Sharing ancient knowledge, techniques and modern movement to help you be the best of all that you are.
Formerly 1 Giant Mind Podcast.
Ritam Studio Podcast With Jonni Pollard and Carla Dimattina
The Sacredness of Masculinity
What does it mean to be a real man in today's world? This profound conversation between spiritual teacher Jonni and his wife Carla cuts through cultural confusion to reveal the essence of authentic masculinity.
Carla opens with raw honesty about her past relationships with men who looked the part—tall, strong, financially successful—yet consistently disappointed her when emotional depth and accountability were required. "I'd given up on my definition of a man being possible to find," she confesses, describing how these experiences steadily eroded her expectations of what men could truly offer.
Jonni frames these common relationship patterns through a compassionate therapeutic lens, explaining that many men reach their "ceiling" when relationships require self-reflection. Rather than confronting their wounds and feelings of inadequacy, they retreat to activities that distract and soothe. The root cause? Our culture's complete lack of meaningful rites of passage that help boys develop into emotionally mature men.
The heart of authentic manhood, Jonni suggests, rests on self-awareness paired with deep compassion, the ability to take full responsibility, and a commitment to values even when challenged. Most surprisingly, he reveals that embracing feminine qualities—surrender, emotional flow, vulnerability—is essential for men to become fully integrated human beings.
This conversation offers healing insights for both men feeling lost in modern gender expectations and women seeking to understand the developmental challenges many men face. By redefining masculinity as a journey of integration rather than domination, Jonni and Carla point toward a more balanced future where men and women support each other's fullest expression.
For those inspired to deepen this work, details about the Sacred Man retreat can be found here — an opportunity for men to heal shame and avoidance patterns and develop the emotional intelligence our world desperately needs.
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Hi Carla.
Speaker 2:Hi, Johnny. Happy to be here for a moment on the couch with you to talk about something that I think a lot of the listeners could relate to.
Speaker 1:Manhood, what it means to be a man, what is interesting to you on this conversation?
Speaker 2:About manhood.
Speaker 1:And being a man, what it means to be a real man.
Speaker 2:Well, prior to meeting you and then marrying you, I had a lot of what appeared to be men in my life.
Speaker 1:A lot. How many are we talking?
Speaker 2:It's awkward to talk about it with you here, but at the same time I even said it when we, when we got married in our apartment in new york and, um, we said to what do you call the guy that? The celebrant, the celebrant where I said that I had given up on there actually being what I thought a man was. I I'd given up on my definition of a man being possible to find, and I also said that you had redefined what it meant to be a man to me.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's nice.
Speaker 2:And, based on my experience prior to you, I had a lot of men or guys, boys, that appeared like men. They looked like a man. They, you know, were your big, tall buff, make a lot of money doing his thing like rugged, you know, your typical. On paper. That's the man. And then what I discover in my relationship with them was just, I was just disappointed, like anytime it it came to standing up, anytime it came to having integrity on it, like confronting things, like nothing could be met, and I was constantly disappointed and feeling like I was the one that had the problem. Like every time I would bring forth an issue to talk about, it would just be reflected back as if it was I was the problem when there was a conversation to be had here and responsibility for both parties to take. Is this making some sense?
Speaker 2:yeah, totally and or and and relationships ending with the guys saying you're perfect, it's not you, it's me. I mean, how many times did you hear that? And hear it so many times that you're like, well, of course it's me, because you're all saying it's not you, it's me. And when you break it down, like, okay, well, what's happening here? Like one moment you're wanting me to be the mother of your kids and like showering me so in love, with me flying everywhere to see me and then the next minute gone to see me and then the next minute gone, and what it felt like to me was the reality of the deeper feeling of love was really scary.
Speaker 2:And what I represented because you know the guys I had they were beautiful people inside. Like they were not, you know, so superficial, without depth. Like they had depth, they were awake. Yet when it came to this moment where it felt like all the things that they said they wanted could be a reality, they would run. And I always wanted to know more, not because I wanted to keep them and have them back, but it was for me to understand so that I could move forward in other relationships and and grow from what had just happened and understand what was happening inside him to make the switch. Like all, most of the time all we women are asking for is an understanding of of what's happening inside of you to create your actions, and it just feels like the guy shuts down and runs when one moment they're an open book. So to have this complete change in personality is really what's the word?
Speaker 2:a woman confusing and disconcerting confusing, disconcerting and ends up like I said my bar just kept dropping of what I thought a man could be and just a constant pattern of avoidant behavior and an inability to confront something deep within themselves.
Speaker 2:And quite often the reason I can say I knew that that was happening was I was not okay with just being told a lie, like I can see through the bullshit and I demand the truth and when I could see, it just is not coming and they're not telling me the truth.
Speaker 2:I'd often write it was really helpful for me to write down and sometimes, you know, back in the day of writing I would post it and just let them sit on those words, like at least I'd had an opportunity to say my piece and for them, for me to write what I think they were going through and for me to say it and be like you know it may not be the case, but this is how it feels, and just leave it at that.
Speaker 2:I didn't need a response. But a couple of times I bumped into the man, like a year or so later, and at that point they were able to look at me in the eye and just be like, hey, I'm so sorry what you said was happening and I just I couldn't deal with it. Then you know, anything from I don't think you're over your ex, and for them to be able to years later go, yeah, you know anything from I don't think you're over your ex and and for them to be able to years later go, yeah, you're right. But I, I, you know, and so in that year, in those years, I'd done my own healing and moved on. But it was always nice when you see that person down the track and kind of get a a nice little finish.
Speaker 2:Uh, a ribbon yeah, wrap, wrap that one in a ribbon. So, and I, I also have four brothers. I grew up with a lot of men. Grew up with, you know, afl footballers, professional athletes always had a lot of what looked like real men around and, um, you are very different from the men I've dated in the past in so much as that.
Speaker 2:I'm not six foot, seven built like a brick shit house and you look different, for sure, but you're different in that you're everything I ever thought was possible to have in a man and some, and I think it'd be really nice to share what your definition of a man is. Definition of a man is, um, so how would you define a man, and what does it take for a boy to become a man? Because I think there's a lot of men out there who are little boys and they are awesome humans, but need to take a step to be a man, to be able to be in relationship with a woman.
Speaker 1:That's really a woman yeah well, men and women need each other in order to grow into fully, well-rounded, fully developed, adult men and women, and you know many ancient cultures. There are rites of passage that support the developmental phases of a man becoming a man and a woman becoming a woman, and our culture is like totally stripped of any of that in any meaningful way, and the rites of passage that we have are kind of really terrible and totally detrimental to our development actually. So when we talk about all of this, it's important to talk about it through a compassionate lens, and a compassionate lens is understanding, with care, with kindness. We want to understand the predicament that we're in, and it is a real predicament. It's, I think, one of the most significant contributors to the way in which the world is the way it is. I say that the core of the world's problems are parenting problems, and the symptom of parenting problems is underdeveloped children growing into underdeveloped adults, and then it repeats the cycle. Those underdeveloped adults then become parents and the cycle continues. And so a big part of my work, as you know, as a therapist and a spiritual teacher, is to reveal the mechanics of how we either become fully integrated as human beings or remain underdeveloped. As a result of what we've been exposed to, in a culture and an environment and in families deeply embedded in ignorance, shrouded in ignorance of what we truly are and what it requires for us to develop, for us to develop.
Speaker 1:So, with all of that being said, I have a really simple definition of what it means to be a man and to fulfill the role of masculinity, and at the core of it, it is, as with everything that I talk about, self-awareness and a deep sense of compassion for the condition we find ourselves in. So you know I can talk about it through a personal lens that I think my superpower is my ability to see myself as I am and to not beat myself up about it. And in not beating myself up about it, I'm actually exercising compassion. And when there is love for the process that I'm in, in my unfoldment, then I have created the fertile ground in which the true self can grow. When we are constantly berating ourself or judging ourself as being inept, incapable, unworthy, because of the way in which we are conditioned, every time we try to plant a new seed, we're essentially just treading on it or spraying some toxic pesticide over it to retard its growth, and so at the core of it is this compassionate self-awareness, to be able to be with the reality of what it is that I'm experiencing and then, within that is the capacity to take full responsibility, to be willing to look at it fully and to be in the presence of the narratives that are there because of the trauma. Because when we're young and we're not fully seen, our development is stifled and as our development stifles, we notice an inability to adapt to challenges and demands relative to the expectation of us. So we have expectations of us to respond and be responsible in a particular way, but because we haven't developed sufficiently, we're incapable of meeting those responsibilities and what that generates is an erosion in our confidence Over time, as we find ourselves confronted with certain circumstances and we don't have the means, either the emotional intelligence, the willingness or the capacity, to sit in the discomfort.
Speaker 1:If it's too triggering to our trauma, we're going to avoid it, and that is going to create circumstances that are undesirable and probably hurt other people. So the story that you share, the front end of this, is exactly what I'm talking about these responses that these men that you were with. Getting to a certain point in a relationship with you, they reach their ceiling. They have a capacity limit in terms of being able to look at themselves, be with themselves, take responsibility for what's going on and not abandon the relationship to confront this and for them it was too painful, too confronting, it was just way too much for them to stay in a relationship dynamic, be seen, be held accountable. The little boy was still driving the program and the choices, and this is the case for most men.
Speaker 1:So the capacity to take responsibility, to confront the narratives that are there and they're layered shame, guilt, unworthiness, lack of capability, the belief in a lack of capability. I'm just not capable of this. I just don't know how to deal with this. I can't deal with this. It's easier for me to forgo this beautiful woman and this relationship and just get out of here. They've been exposed and what is being exposed is the core of their wound, which is I'm just this helpless, useless little boy that doesn't know how to deal with this stuff. And you know, if they've got good looks and some talent to generate wealth, then they'll generally go and choose activities that are going to distract and soothe their wounding rather than confront the wounding. If they've got that capability, that's what generally happens. It's like, oh yeah, no, this is getting a bit real for me. I'm just going to go and, you know, preoccupy myself with greater superficiality, so I don't have to deal with the reality of what you're demanding.
Speaker 2:Why are you saying, if they have good looks and wealth, that would enable that pathway, more so than someone who wasn't as handsome or financially wealthy?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, you know, it's just a fact that we trade on wealth and good looks and you know, if they're able to swap out a situation easy enough, you know they'll go and do it. You know a lot of people choose to confront things in relationships because they're like well, this is really great what I have here and you know you're worth it. And you know and this is a rare thing this is a rare and beautiful thing, but individuals that you know are probably used to having women throwing themselves at them. Men are going to be like well, you know, in three weeks from now, I'll be in another relationship with another gorgeous woman and hopefully she won't be as demanding and hold me accountable Like you're holding me accountable, cause I'm just not up for that right now. You know they just want all the sexy stuff without the the deep emotional connection. Well, they want the deep emotional connection. This is the compassionate lens. Ultimately, all of these men want this. They just don't know how to get there and it's terrifying. And when they have to truly surrender to the feminine to lead them in that process, that is a deal breaker. It's just utterly terrifying for them.
Speaker 1:So responsibility, confronting the narratives and overcoming those narratives is really important. And then defining what you are actually on about. What are your values, what do you really stand for, what's important to you, and then doing your very best every day to commit to that and to be very honest in the areas of your life where these values are challenged, and why, why you would forego your values for what? And what is revealed in this process of holding your values very, very deeply in your heart and at the forefront of your awareness is it reveals the path of healing, because our values are the expression of our true self, who we really are, and if there is any aspect of ourself that is willing to sacrifice our values for something else, that something else is generally fear-based, that's based on doubt or a sense of unworthiness a sense of unworthiness I'm unable to fulfill my values, and so I have to take this shortcut here in order to, you know, make myself feel safe. I can't just rest in my values. It doesn't feel safe to just surrender to what my values are. If I don't do this, which is an action of compromise, then I'm going to put myself in an unsafe predicament. This is generally what causes people to forego their values is fear and unworthiness and a sense of despondency and disconnect from the value of living with integrity.
Speaker 1:And so, once we have established our values and we choose to live them and we're holding ourselves accountable, it's defining what it is that you feel is the most useful, beneficial way to be of use and of service to the world, to see your existence as something more than just a playground for your own hedonistic pursuits, but to recognize the power in your individuality, the power in your presence here on the planet, to contribute to the brotherhood, the sisterhood of our humanity, and to feel deeply connected to that as your sense of purpose, and to then make a commitment to moving in the direction of that deeper impulse to serve. Because if you're holding yourself accountable, by the way, to your highest values, this is what awakens in you A deep sense of purpose, to your highest values. This is what awakens in you a deep sense of purpose when you start to awaken your capability to confront the shadow in you, to confront the lies of your unworthiness and overcome them day to day, proving to yourself your capability to stay with yourself and to stay with another, to be vulnerable, to feel with yourself and to stay with another, to be vulnerable, to feel pain, to move through that pain, to heal through that pain and to come out the other side and feel renewed, confident, empowered, one starts to develop a much broader vision of their capability. What if I turn this into an activity of service for others? And herein lies the outlet of our deepest fulfillment being able to establish connection with other human beings in the name of causing elevation, either in our individual relationships or our community or the world at large All three.
Speaker 1:And when we establish ourselves in this and we hold ourselves accountable to moving in the direction of something great and remaining in the unknown of it all, and remaining in the unknown of it all, applying the same principles of not hiding, not being governed by fear, by surrendering to the deep intelligence that governs the whole universe and allowing that to guide you in each moment into the unknown, to create something that hasn't been created before.
Speaker 1:That is of great need for a great many people. This, in my opinion, is the bedrock of being a man, and there are a lot of other nuanced elements to it when it comes to relational dynamics, like the willingness to be vulnerable, to forwardly admit when you've been hiding something or you know avoiding something, or when something's being called out to graciously receive that feedback, to reflect beyond your defense mechanisms, to accept, if it's true, and then to graciously acknowledge that and ask for guidance and support about how you might be able to transmute that experience, grow out of it. This is where our development comes from as well, so this is a huge component of it as well.
Speaker 2:Well, that was a juicy answer of what it means to be a man. That was a juicy answer of what it means to be a man. As a woman, my expectation of a man is what was quite traditional, you know, I wanted. To me a man was reliable, dependable, made me feel supported like he's got things like he has. You know me feel supported like he's got things like he has. You know, I'm able to be fully me because I've got this, this heavy weight underneath me. That's just, um, like holding me traditional in that, you know, I don't want to take out the garbage. Um, you know, I'm happily have you, you know, do the manny kind of jobs around the house. So that's all the traditional things I'd expect of a man. But it was also for a man to man up, to take things like when, yeah, to take responsibility. And what I find with you when I say you're everything I thought a man could be. And some you demonstrate softness within that manliness. So you're strong, very strong, physically, emotionally, but then at the same time so soft.
Speaker 2:But then at the same time, so soft and that balance is. It's like I haven't experienced that. I feel like it's been imbalanced generally in most of the men I've been. And you know, look, I might have just been choosing the wrong men all along. It was, but men could be on the side of the vulnerability was more just for me if I was to see a man, fully see them, and then they could become whingy and whiny. You know, like, oh, like this need for you to look after them and care, and that's part of what I want to do as a woman, but only to a point.
Speaker 1:You don't want to be their mothers.
Speaker 2:No, and that's what I felt like like there wasn't an end, like they kind of would slip into one category or the other, whereas you have the ability when you let me hold you when you need to be held.
Speaker 2:It doesn't make you any less of a man when that happens and it only makes us stronger our relationship. You know, because for me to be able to support you in that way is great, and you take responsibility, like you look at the situation and see where you can take responsibility for what you've done and own it. You know, in any kind of dynamic not talking about just our relationship, but you know in any kind of dynamic, in any, not not talking about just our relationship, but you know anything in life that you've been confronted with where you'll really look at it. You know pragmatically and take responsibility and then feel your emotions that are connected to it, that allow you to move through it and make whatever happened something that's only making you stronger and more of a man, um, and I haven't experienced that so much in any of my male partners before well.
Speaker 1:It's always nice to have your wife reflect that back to you. That's great, thank you. It's not common, because it's an uncommon pursuit, for a man to commit himself to understanding the complexity of the masculine-feminine interplay. So I would I would attribute all of those qualities that you described being the result of deeply inquiring as to what it is we are, what it is that I am, first as a human and then as a man. And what is my manhood made up of? And what I've discovered through my own personal experience in the study through the Vedas is that we can never understand the masculine in the absence of the feminine, that masculine and feminine are inextricably linked and we can't actually understand one without the other If we're looking at them in isolation. We're not understanding them, because we are never just masculine and we are never just feminine.
Speaker 1:It is a dance between the two of them, and what I discovered in, thankfully quite early on, was that there is incredible power in letting go of control, surrendering to what is, allowing what's happening to happen and to reveal a deeper truth, and this, in my opinion, is the feminine quality. And then, once there is this rise, purge, upheaval, release, everything settles and what naturally appears in my consciousness is this beautiful, coherent orderliness. There's structure, there's form, there's pragmatism, there's organized insight, of which I'm able to act on quite effortlessly and easily. And I observed this rhythm occurring and the rhythm being having really clear insight, and then something rising up inside of me that compromised that clarity. Rising up inside of me that compromised that clarity. There were deep emotional feelings of unrest and pain and unresolved things from the past, and they'd rise and I learned to recognize that happening and just surrender into it.
Speaker 1:And this, in my opinion, was me learning how to enable the feminine aspect of myself to be present and just surrender and allow that intelligence that is there to organize what was taking place inside of me, which was, in my opinion, just healing, recovery from something that happened much earlier on, that was just seeking to be resolved. And I learned to get out of the road and allow nature to do its thing. And so what you're describing, those attributes that you described, is the interplay between the masculine and feminine, and the way that they dance is one thing. So a man is equally masculine and feminine. A woman is equally masculine and feminine. It's just how we conduct that, how we allow that to play out inside of us.
Speaker 2:So on that point, I feel like when I've been with you, I've been able to be more of a woman. That aspect of me has flourished since being with you and I feel like a lot of the problem that exists today is that women are having to be more masculine or lean into that more masculine side that you're talking about, because to compensate to compensate and it's causing a gross imbalance.
Speaker 2:And it's so easy and effortless with you for me to be me and it I naturally want to do the things that are on the more feminine side, but when that that masculine part of me is also embraced by you like, it's a balance, but it interplays so nicely with you. You know, you allow me to flourish as I am and I allow you to flourish as you are because of the, like you said, they. They can't exist separately. They've got to exist together. And when they are together, what forms from that is something remarkable and beautiful and rare.
Speaker 1:I find today, yeah, and sacred. Yeah, it's a very sacred thing when the masculine and feminine come together as two separate entities, and the balance within each of us, the way that it dances between us. It's very special and it shouldn't be so unique, and this is why I'm so dedicated to the work that I'm doing in UU is that this understanding of who and what we are as humans at this level, it has to be liberated and it's very accessible if we open ourselves to it. It's not like something you know, something that you know, requires some deep spiritual gift in order to embrace it. It's available to everybody, because it is what it is we are, and for this reason, I dedicate myself to teaching it, sharing the knowledge of it, to teaching it, sharing the knowledge of it. And you know which inspired the upcoming retreat which is part of the reason why we wanted to do this podcast Sacred man, which is a men's retreat that we're going to be running here in northern New South Wales and Australia, and it's an invitation for all men, for men that have done work and men that haven't yet. It doesn't matter, because it meets you where you're at, the process and the format that we run over the five days that we're together in nature, deep in nature, in a very sacred part of the northern rivers in Bundjalung country, is going to cause a profound transformation in the way in which the participants will see themselves, because we'll be doing it together and doing it very earnestly, with a full heart, deeply committed to exposing ourselves to the tribe of men that are going to be there, and it's one of the most extraordinary liberating things.
Speaker 1:A big part of what holds men back is shame Shame about not being a man.
Speaker 1:Most men know that if they're primarily acting from their little boy, they know that and they feel ashamed about that and they hide it and they try to overcompensate with bigger muscles and faster cars and whatever it is, more hair on their face, whatever it is that represents masculinity to them.
Speaker 1:They overcompensate to try and create an image of masculinity and in my opinion and my experience in facilitating this work through Veda therapy, one-on-one is that once all of this gets exposed and a man sees that actually there's nothing to be ashamed of and that it all makes perfect sense, that they've been the way that they were based on, the way that they were brought up, and that there is a clear pathway in which they can hold themselves accountable, that men can make extraordinary leaps in actually becoming very integrated, and what I mean by integrated is awakening to their feminine.
Speaker 1:So oddly, you know, when we go on a sacred man's retreat, it's not just about embellishing what it means to be a man as far as your masculinity. It's actually leaning into our feminine qualities equally, if not more. You know, in some instances some men are overly effeminate and are too much established in their feminine and not enough in their masculine, and the process takes all of that into consideration and supports those kinds of men as well. So all of talking about all of this is really great, because it creates the context for why we're running this retreat, and it's something that's so important and I want to be running these retreats as often as I can and creating the opportunity for men to come and expose themselves to themselves and to each other so that they can truly free themselves and become the people that they want to be in the world.
Speaker 2:You're saying right now a real man wouldn't drive such a fast car, wouldn't have so much hair on his face, wouldn't have like super big muscles. But post this retreat a real man could be the fast car driving muscly hairy guy because he's balanced it out.
Speaker 1:Totally. We should never gauge what a man is by what he looks like, what he owns, what you know, it's the quality of his presence, the power in his presence, the softness of his heart, the kindness of his eyes, the unrelenting, unshakable sense of what he believes is right and his willingness to be ostracized, isolated, rejected by his peers in order to stand true in the integrity of his values. We only understand a man in those subtle domains and to what extent he is able to sustain that Sacred man. Let's say this is the definition of a sacred man and the reason why I call it sacred man. Let's say this is the definition of a sacred man and the reason why I call it sacred man is that when a man and a woman as well is established in themselves in this way, it is truly sacred because their presence becomes something so incredibly powerful and useful, meaningful, purposeful for their community and for the world at large. What we require is individuals that are deeply embodied in their values, that see themselves in an unshakable way, that see themselves in an unshakable way. Their sense of self is structured in integrity. It doesn't matter what life throws at them. Yes, they might feel challenged, but at the end of the day, they always rise to the occasion and demonstrate what it means to maintain integrity and not sell themselves short. And these living, breathing, embodied examples is what we aspire to, and we need more pillars in the community that are this, that we and young men and women can look to, because women need good male role models as well.
Speaker 1:It's not just about men for men, it's about women for men, men for women for the whole thing. And, yeah, so in my opinion, it's just such an important thing that we need to be doing ceremoniously, on an ongoing basis. You know men need to be coming to these kinds of retreats every year and checking in Okay, where am I at? How can I go deeper? Where can I go deeper? What am I not seeing? It's an opportunity to really grow and to take this whole becoming to the next level, to the next level. So, yeah, a man you know it's funny the men that I know that I feel like are the most real men. They are so far from the typical. You know, one that I have in mind is, you know, quite short for a man, not terribly muscly, and you know you might not notice him, but when you get to know him you're just like oh my goodness, this guy is so such an alpha.
Speaker 2:Such a man, such a man, yeah, in terms of you know who I'm talking about.
Speaker 1:I know about yeah, yeah and it's.
Speaker 2:It's like can build his own house with his own two hands. Yeah, he can do anything with his own two hands he can do anything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's got that, he's got that capability and and you know, he's still discovering his feminine and everything. But you know it, it's not. It's not the way that you look and he has no chip on his shoulder about any of that. That's what makes him even greater in his stature. So, yeah, it's and and there is a lot of kind of you know hiding behind this kind of long hair, big beard, you know stuff going on it's kind of become trendy.
Speaker 2:Run the other way.
Speaker 1:She didn't mean that. Yeah, we just need to level up in our sophistication, in understanding what it means to be men. And so, for all you men out there, if you're able to attend this retreat or any retreat that you know that is facilitated by somebody who's embodied in their masculinity, get along to it and continue doing this incredible and important work of unleashing what it means to be a man in the world right now, because there is a war against it. There is a real war against it.
Speaker 2:And it's so important. It's so important that there are men, embodied men, because I just feel like it'd take the edge off the women that are so anti-men. You know, that would just help restore a balance that is needed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and for men to be men, we need embodied women, and for women to be well-embodied women, they need men. And we need each other and we have this responsibility and the call to action is just to continue deepening the authentic experience of yourself, the willingness to expose fear, the willingness to confront it and to stand true in your values. Take the higher path and, but without the self-righteousness, with a deep, compassionate heart and understanding that we're all in that process, but also fiercely holding ourselves and each other accountable. It's that sweet balance between the two.
Speaker 2:All the details for this retreat are on the Ritam Studio website.
Speaker 1:That's right wwwritamstudio.
Speaker 2:Also, you could sign up to our newsletter, where you'll get more information about this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so, obviously, this content is evergreen. This podcast is being recorded in April 2025. The retreat is happening in July 2025, july 31st actually to the 3rd of August and, um, hopefully they'll happen, if it's successful. They'll happen every year. So if you've heard this and you've you've missed that retreat. Just keep your eye out for the next one, whether it be 2026, 2027. Yeah, because I imagine we'll be doing these till we're old and grey. Well, thanks so much, carla, for drawing all of that out. That's great.
Speaker 2:Thank you, johnny my man. Thanks Carla for drawing all of that out. That's great. Thank you, johnny my man.
Speaker 1:Thanks, carla my babes, Thank you everybody.