).png)
You Can't Afford Me
You Can't Afford Me
Beyond the Fairway: Building a 24/7 Golf Community
Two brothers with complementary skills and a shared passion for golf saw opportunity where others saw obstacles. During the pandemic, when golf courses were packed and driving ranges overflowing, Patrick and his brother launched Indoor Golf RVA with a vision to make the sport more accessible, affordable, and community-oriented.
Their entrepreneurial journey exemplifies thoughtful risk management. Rather than diving headfirst into uncertainty, they maintained their corporate careers while building the business on evenings and weekends. "Work nine to five for someone else, but five to nine for yourself," Patrick explains, describing their gradual transition from chemical industry professional to full-time business owner. This methodical approach allowed them to bootstrap entirely without investors or loans, starting with just one simulator and expanding as demand grew.
What makes Indoor Golf RVA distinctive is its focus on accessibility in a sport often criticized for exclusivity. Operating like a 24/7 gym, members can practice anytime without staff present, play on over 300 virtual courses, and bring guests at no additional cost. This model directly challenges traditional golf's high barriers to entry – from expensive initiation fees and strict dress codes to limited tee time availability. "Golf got so expensive, so inaccessible," Patrick notes, describing their mission to democratize the experience.
The business has thrived by recognizing shifting demographics in golf. With women's participation increasing 25% in recent years and growing diversity among players, Indoor Golf RVA creates an environment where anyone can feel welcome, regardless of skill level or background. Their two locations in Richmond serve primarily local communities, with most members living within a couple miles of each facility.
As they look toward the future, the brothers are considering alternative growth strategies beyond traditional franchising. Instead of requiring the million-dollar investments typical of larger golf simulator chains, they're exploring consulting relationships with entrepreneurs in other markets, sharing their hard-won knowledge while enabling independent ownership.
Ready to improve your game year-round or join a community of golf enthusiasts? Visit IndoorGolfRVA.com to learn about membership options or schedule a tour of our Scott's Edition or Rockets Landing facilities.
www.themrpreneur.com
Welcome to the you Can't Afford Me podcast, where we skip the fluff and dive straight into the grind Real entrepreneurs, real struggles and the unfiltered journey behind success. Let's get into it, hey guys. Thanks for joining us on another episode of the you Can't Afford Me podcast. So you guys know how passionate I am about the game of golf obsessed, been golfing for like three years and two of my favorite things are probably business and golf. So we got the perfect guest today. Uh, patrick is with us today. He's the owner, co-owner of indoor golf, rva patrick how you doing today, buddy.
Speaker 2:I'm great, sam, thanks for having me in. Uh, glad we could connect and appreciate you choosing a perfect day for me to walk across the street to your nice offices.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Yeah, we're neighbors. Yes, absolutely Down in Rockets Landing. So in 30 seconds give everybody a quick rundown of who you are and what you do 30 seconds.
Speaker 2:I am the owner of.
Speaker 1:Indoor.
Speaker 2:Golf RVA, as you said. So we have two 24-7 golf facilities in Scott's Edition and Rockets Landing. It operates kind of like a 24-7 gym, so our members can let themselves in any time use one of our golf simulators to work on their game, play courses, get some data on their swing. And we try to create a good community atmosphere as well. We host social events for our members, host tournaments and try to provide a lot of the things that some more expensive private golf clubs would provide. Yep, um, and you know, on top of that, I love the game of golf as well. I'm a father to two kids, uh, so I have plenty of stuff to keep me busy nice, sounds like me, yeah, exactly yeah, you totally understand.
Speaker 1:So let's start pre-indoor golf RVA. What were you doing career-wise?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good question. So when we first started, I had been working in the chemical industry for about eight years, and this is around 2001. When the pandemic was going on Golf was one of the few things you could do, and so, because of that, all the golf courses around here started getting busy. Remind me when you picked up. Golf is probably around the same time, right? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:A little right after the pandemic yeah.
Speaker 2:So you and a bunch of other people um, started playing golf around that time and so courses got busier, driving ranges were always packed Uh, and my brother kind of came to me with this business idea. He was super familiar with the golf technology and kind of wanted to lean on me for the customer service aspect and getting new members signed up, and so we started this as just part of our nine to five jobs. So you know, I'd go to my normal job in the chemical industry After I clocked out. There would just be working, building out the facility, trying to figure out how we get customers uh, showing customers the facility, all that kind of stuff. Lots of weekends working, uh.
Speaker 2:And as you know, you know any business you start up, the beginning is always such a grind you know, you're just trying to get business, trying to get your name out there, uh, and so after well, you dropped the gym right there.
Speaker 1:I want people to understand yeah, when you're building a business, work nine to five for someone else, but work five to nine for yourself.
Speaker 2:That's, I mean, that's, I think, is the best way to do it, just because it reduces so much risk. Right, and like that's the challenge with starting any business, uh is, is the risk involved with it? You don't, especially when you're starting a new concept or something that's not really proven. You don't really know for sure that's going to work, and we didn't either. So we tried to think of ways that we could reduce the risk.
Speaker 2:That was one, starting with as a part-time job. It was two, starting with a facility that was tiny and only had one golf simulator where we could expand later on, but that was really the most capital intensive part of starting a business is the technology. Yep, yeah, because you're telling me that was the track. Masters are like 25. Yeah, just for that. And then so for a full simulator, it's yeah, it's a lot more. So it's a very capital intensive for each simulator bay, and so, yeah, I think that's um, you know, if you're risk averse and have a lot to lose, like having had an eight year career and, um, not wanting to just throw everything down the toilet that I had earned at that point, it was kind of a good way to go about it. So fortunately things worked out. I quit my other job about a year after we opened, so for two years now this has been my full-time job. So let's pause right there.
Speaker 1:So first, I'm always interested. I always feel that entrepreneurs are born, not made. Were there people in your family Like where did the entrepreneurial spirit come from? Was it from the Instagram videos we always see? So it's kind of a.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think it's just the perfect storm of my brother and I's experience uh, our love for golf, but also like our various experience. So I worked in supply chain marketing and product management. He worked in finance and accounting, and those are all things you need to run a business right, especially a physical business where you do need the inventory management of supply chain. You need the marketing piece of figuring out how to grow it, and then you need the finance and accounting piece, which I know nothing about, and filing taxes is pretty important.
Speaker 1:So it's a really good mix.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a really good mix and it's just kind of funny because I'd worked for DuPont for a long time really just saw myself like having a long, stable career working for a large company. That's how my parents operated. You know, my dad worked for Kodak for over 30 years, nice, and so I always I learned a lot from their hard work and their work ethic. But there was never in my mind, like until this came about, there was never a thought of like, hey, I'm going to run my own business someday. It was always kind of, I'm going to work my way up in a big company and have success that way. Yeah, um, just because of the safety net that provides, right, if you do a good job for a big company, there's a lot less downside to owning your business where, um, every cent you make is yours but every cent you lose is a cent lost to you as well.
Speaker 2:so very high risk, high reward. But it's been a lot of fun, not just, you know, just kind of meeting new people in the community as well, and, uh, that's been a fun. Benefit that I didn't expect is like meeting more golfers and kind of uh learning the golf industry throughout richmond yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:What was the reaction from your family? Because brothers are going into this business again. I'll never forget my mom's first reaction when I told her I'd quit my day job and I was starting a business. She was like. Her first response was what about your health benefits? My response was it's bad for my health to continue to work for this other company, because you're driving me crazy, so what? Was the reaction from your family? Did you receive a lot of support? Was there a lot of speculation, a bit of?
Speaker 2:both I Was there a lot of speculation, a bit of both. I mean, there's tons of support. Just because that's the way my family is, I think there was kind of like curiosity of how this would work and with it being more technology focused, you know, my parents had a lot of questions. They've been golfing their whole lives but never really with simulators and things like that, ever really, um, with simulators and things like that. Uh, but to that point you make about health care, like I wouldn't be able to do this without my wife and my family, like I literally use her benefits, so it's um, that's a huge piece as well. Uh, and having that support has been not just, you know, financially but, uh, emotionally, someone like a sounding board to talk to. Like she doesn't love golf like I do, but she has great ideas. I think that almost helps in a way, because I can, like, say a bunch of stuff as a golfer and she can kind of provide feedback as a non-golfer and be like, well, wouldn't it make more sense to do this way?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a really good point. Our math is all golfers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I kind of get stuck in the golf hat and not like the business hat.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cause we're like, oh, I can go out and invest in this $1,200 driver and it's going to improve my game and her wife's was like I don't think that's going to shave off too many strokes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she doesn't see the benefit of that, but I'm not a huge club junkie, fortunately for her. But we have plenty of members who are so nice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my businesses I've ever started have been. I mean, you're in a service-based industry but you have a storefront. Talk to us about the process of first, like did you use OPM other people's money to get this business off the ground and what did that process look like having to go out and raise?
Speaker 2:No, it was just all bootstrapping. So my brother and I, having worked careers for a while, had the money, fortunately, to kind of start on our own. But it was limited, right. We're not like taking out loans, we're not trying to raise a bunch of money. We wanted to keep our pieces of the pie and that meant just saving every dollar we could, being as smart as we could, going back to keeping our normal jobs, so we had a source of income to continue fueling the business through that startup process, but also just finding creative ways to start up with a low cost and kind of figure out how to expand from there.
Speaker 1:So did you guys already have savings when you were ready to launch the business? Or when you guys came up with the idea, it was like, okay, we still need to save X amount.
Speaker 2:It was a. It was a bit of both, right. I mean, like you know, we had already saved enough money to kind of figure out how to do it on our own. Yeah, and once my brother came up with the idea, it was pretty quick, Like things. Like we started looking for a commercial space, signed a lease, right, and just got things moving pretty quickly since we had the money. But yeah, you just have to be creative in any business, right? There's businesses that start with a few hundred bucks, but it is tough, I think. When you run a business with a storefront, I think a lot of entrepreneurs get carried away with the build out and having all the bells and whistles and that can be pretty expensive pretty quickly.
Speaker 2:So that's pretty tough and really just making tough decisions on what's going to benefit you as a business and what's important to your customers, and always trying to keep that lens on things.
Speaker 1:So how did you guys decide? I'm sure there was a lot of research that went into this and, like when the PGA Superstore opened up in Richmond, like I was reading that Business article and recognizing that they obviously a brand like that is definitely doing their research. Yeah, and they recognize the fact that, like richmond, is one of the fastest growing areas for the sport of golf right now. Um so how did you guys determine, even though you lived here, how did you determine that this was going to be the place to launch this business?
Speaker 2:I guess. I mean, when we first started, you don't really know, like it was really, um, we're not a multi-million dollar company like pga superstore. We don't have the data they have, we don't have the uh, the research they have. So it was really a lot of gut instinct and that feeling of, hey, these golf courses are packed, driving ranges are packed, the golf industry, all the club manufacturers are raising their prices. Um, we've got to take advantage of make golf cheap again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, and that that's.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's really part of our goal. Is golf got so expensive, so inaccessible from, like where you can go to play right, and like I don't want to have to drive an hour to play golf.
Speaker 2:That just seems kind of ridiculous and like if you golf to the people and that's why we started really small and our goal is kind of on expanding in little pods where it makes sense and of course, in a city where there's not a lot of golf courses, that makes more sense than maybe in the suburbs where there's more space for golf. But even there you find golf courses filling up. You find golf courses closing. In the last few years two golf courses in Richmond have closed to put down housing or for renovation, and so that takes. It's a supply and demand issue. So I guess, to answer your question, we'd had no idea if it would work or not, and that's part of the risk you have being entrepreneurs. You can look at all the data you think you can like, be super sure of things and at the end of the day, day like there's a reason that so many businesses fail is because it's never a sure thing yep you.
Speaker 1:Well, you said one major gem there was. You trusted your gut, which I had to learn that mistake on early on where like you know you want to. I never want to be the smartest guy in the room. I always want to be with people that are bigger, better than me, like I remember when I first moved here I started working out at YMCA and like it was nothing but like 70, 80 year old people and I'd be putting up like 115 on the bench, and they're like oh my God, he's so strong Standing around you and admiring your work.
Speaker 2:And then I got to go to his gym and I was like the smallest guy on the block there. So it's like all about who your circle is.
Speaker 1:But you know, sometimes you can get the advice, you can look at the numbers, but, like as an entrepreneur, I think you just have to trust your gut, cause I've been advised by some very smart people before and I just knew, like I get what you're saying, but like this is going to be the best thing for me and I just have a good feeling that this is going to work out at the end of the day, like you guys didn't have to take on investors, you didn't take out loans, so if it's like, if it doesn't work, you can always go back and get a job. Exactly Like it's not, like this is the end of it. That was the idea. Yeah, talk to us about what were some of the first lessons you learned. So your first location has been open three years and your new location has been open a year. Yep, talk to us about. Give me your top two or three things that you learned about owning a storefront business in the first year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think a key part of that question is storefront business, because I think the commercial real estate aspect is a very underappreciated piece, and I think you go through life renting apartments. It's a simple transaction. Hey, the rent's $2,000 a month. This is the space you get.
Speaker 1:Ain't that simple in commercial? Yeah, no, absolutely not.
Speaker 2:There's yeah, you get it. You're renting an apartment, you get it for a year. This is the price In commercial real estate. Everything's negotiable, and that's from free rent to build out costs to length of lease term, and so when we first opened our first facility, I think we naively thought let's just negotiate this ourselves, we'll save some money, we'll save on the real estate fee. In hindsight, maybe should have agreed, leaned more on some experts, right, and? And figured out what we could have gained, uh, from from someone with that, with that expertise, just because there is so much more than here's the price you're going to pay and here's the square footage you get. Um, so that was probably the biggest lesson learned.
Speaker 2:And number two is just, um, it's really tough when you're starting out your own business to you're saving every money and every dollar you can right and like I said we'd start with our own money, didn't have much to start with and didn't want to overspend, and so I think it's hard to justify spending money on advertising, whereas when you're in a service business like us or you're in any physical storefront business, I would guess that from our experience that pays dividends in the long run. If we got more members when we first opened, naturally we're going to make more money than after. We grow in word of mouth and things are going much better now and that's how we get most of our business. We don't spend a lot on advertising. But I do wish we had maybe front-loaded some ad spend and kind of bet on ourselves a little more to grow the business that way and raise more awareness that we were starting, just because the longer you have a customer, the more money you're gaining.
Speaker 2:And so that advertising early on I think just pays off more than when you've been open a while and your business is established. You've got great Google reviews and customers are bringing their friends spreading, spreading word of mouth, and you're kind of getting out there that way. That eventually happens. But I do think that early on there's a lot of heavy lifting to kind of yep, get the brand out there and that's that's the challenge with any business, I think, is just getting the name out there and getting people to know you exist.
Speaker 2:Um, you could be the only one doing it, which we were in richmond at the time. Yep, uh, but that doesn't matter. If people can't find you, people don't know that you're there thousand percent.
Speaker 1:Well, interesting enough, you're sitting across from a guy who does marketing full time um with that too, like I always.
Speaker 1:Like you know, I'm the social media video guy, um, and everybody thinks that's all I do. Marketing like marketing is is like a table that has chairs, like there are different pegs of this. So I I don't ever recommend that all somebody does marketing-wise is social media or just video marketing. You need to be out networking. You need to be out shaking hands. Sponsoring events may be a good thing to get your brand in front of people. Some businesses billboards, tv, ads, radio, depending on your demographic. For brands like us, our audience is not listening to local radio stations, so that's a waste of money to do something like that, yeah but there's.
Speaker 1:So, like I know you mentioned gyms earlier. Gyms are great for direct mailers and they know that, like if they're all, if they're not hitting uh neighborhoods. Yeah, exactly, yeah, that makes sense, I've never met business owners that know their numbers better than gym owners. Yeah, like they know. Like if I go one block over, yeah, the likelihood of me getting a client is like next to none. Yeah, but they're like, if I stay within this fold here, like I'm more likely to capture more people that's exactly the same for us.
Speaker 2:I think it's the same for a lot of physical um businesses, restaurants, especially like if you know, if you've got a good restaurant 10 minutes from you, it's a good Italian place. You're not going to drive half an hour to the Italian place. That's a little better. Same with gyms. Same with us. There's several places like ours now around Richmond. The reason that broader media marketing I don't think works well for us is because we essentially end up advertising for those places. Most of our members live within a couple miles of our facility, which makes sense, and that's what we want. We want it to be convenient for people to practice. We don't want anyone driving an hour to golf for an hour.
Speaker 2:That just kind of reduces the benefit. So I think, yeah, that's a really good point is like not just rely on social media, because that might be too broad and like what do you, yeah, what other marketing strategies do you have and what can you do marketing wise that's free and just takes your time, uh, showing up to events, like just being at a community thing and just having a sign right, or providing you know things for charity auctions, uh, in our, in our space, charity golf tournaments make a lot of sense, uh, and that kind of. So trying to do whatever free advertising you can in that sense is, I think, a good way to go about getting the world out early if you are tight on a budget, like we were starting up.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Talk to us about I want to switch over here to expansion here in a second but talk to me about how golf has helped you with business. I actually saw an article I think it was, uh, entrepreneurcom or something like that where a lot of these larger companies they're seeking to hire people who know the game of golf.
Speaker 1:so it used to be back in the day like, hey, we got some big wigs coming from japan or chicago or something like that. Like let's take them out on the town and have a good night. Sure, now they're looking for employees that have a decent golf game. That could take a client out because so many circumstances. There've been people I've tried to get in front of and I'm like, hey, man, you got time for a 15 minute meeting this week and they're like I'm too busy. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But if a tee times opens up, they're like hey, man, go from getting 15 minutes with the CEO to now getting four or five hours with them on the golf course and that relationship like immediately builds because you spend five hours with someone. I mean that's like 10 dates in one, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's a good way to put it, If they've got the time, and yeah, who turns down free golf? That's a good way to. Even if you're in the business world, that's a good way to connect with people and I guess that's probably part of why you know not only I think I see it less than I used to. So, having worked in business, I think it used to be a more common thing where you can go out and work on the golf course for five hours. I think maybe some companies are starting to dial that back.
Speaker 1:Maybe a front nine or something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly. But you see, like a lot of corporate events at top golf that kind of thing, and it's less about being good at golf at those sort of things and more of just like you know uh having a good time, just having a good time and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:But I I mean, having worked in the golf industry since I was, uh, in high school, I think you, you learn a lot about networking, uh, and you realize that it's a customer service industry. It's not really really the golf industry, right, like you can know everything you need to know about golf, golf equipment, the golf swing.
Speaker 2:If you're not treating people right, if you're not, you know, doing the appropriate etiquette on the course and all that stuff, people are just not going to, they're going to be pissed off at you or whatever it is right, like so all that stuff kind of adds up and it's a little things like that of uh it's very similar to life, right, like you treat people well, you treat it with respect, and uh, it kind of comes back to you and it. There are a lot of parallels, I think, to, to golf and life in that sense, and that's why there's so many programs like the first tee, by trying to teach kids the game of golf at an early age because it does yeah, it really does like instill a lot of good characteristics and a lot of good, um, I guess, just like responsibilities, of like how to treat people and how to treat life yeah, no, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Um, what would you say to someone who, like I'm, every guy I've ever met that's like my age that our dads didn't teach us how to golf in early age. Like we're still pissed at our dads like man.
Speaker 2:Why did you put a golf club in my hand earlier?
Speaker 1:yeah, and in the younger days, like in in most areas, like it's not cool to be a golfer, sure, um but the older you get, yeah, the older you get. It's like I'm the golf trips that I take with my friends each year. It's like last trip we took to myrtle beach. I'm looking across and I'm seeing these guys are like 70, 75 years old and they still got that group of 15 guys going out to golf every single year and it's awesome the longevity that you can build with relationships with this sport.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what would be your advice to someone that's considering picking up this sport? What would you say are the benefits to becoming a golfer?
Speaker 2:I think longevity is a huge benefit. I think you nailed it right there. I mean, I'm not going to be able to play basketball with my kids forever. I'm not going to, you know, go challenge my mom to a I don't know any kind of sporting event. I, like you, know so. But you can go on the golf course with anyone and it's a fair game. Like you've got a handicap system to level the playing field and, you know, played with my grandfather till he was in his 80s and I play with my parents today. Hope to play with my kids someday. Right, it's just something that everyone can do, regardless of age, and it's a great way to just get some fresh air, stay in shape, and there's a reason so many people picked it up after COVID. Yeah, it's a lot of fun and it's just a great way to get outdoors and I think has a lot of mental to some people, I think, mental detriments.
Speaker 1:I see a lot of people get angry on the course, but to some people, a lot of mental benefits to kind of get yeah, no, I agree with you, we're not getting paid for this. I've seen enough of it.
Speaker 2:I've seen enough to know that there's people who I think would mentally benefit from not golfing uh, but I think there's a lot of benefits to it, of just you know uh, getting out there, forgetting about your problems for a few hours, um, which is hard to do in today's age.
Speaker 1:Yeah for sure but it's like when you're out there, the only thing you can focus on is that little white ball that's sitting in yes you can't be thinking about payroll and all these other different things like it's like. This is all that's in front of me. Yeah, what would you say in terms about how the sport is changing? For me, getting into golf, there's a stigma that golf is very stuffy, that it's uptight, that I'm not the kind of guy I generally don't tuck in my polos.
Speaker 1:I'm looking clean on the course. If you see me pull up, it looks like I'm a scratch golfer. I'm not, but I look like it.
Speaker 2:I invest in the clothing and the gear.
Speaker 1:But in terms of other brands, you've got Bad Birdie. Now You've got Eastside Golf, started by two brothers. The scope and the demographic of golf, I think from my vantage point, is drastically changing. What have you seen through your business in terms of the clientele that you guys are working with?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a really good point. I mean, I think that's part of what we try to combat is we are not a place that's going to have a really high initiation fee, be very exclusive A lot of clubs now you need like a reference to get in. Like that kind of environment, I think is tough for some people to overcome. So, providing making things affordable. We don't have a dress code, we have very casual events like happy hours, things like that. And what's great about like the growth of golf in the last few years is that it is a lot of demographics that are just white men, like it's, I think, women there's been a 25% increase in women golfing in the last couple of years, a lot of women on the course.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean lots more women and just lots of, lots more minorities, and I think that's great. I mean I think that's a sign that golf is making the right strides of not being like that stuffy environment anymore. There's still I think there's still some problems with that, but I think, yeah, I think you find the right places to get out of that, and that's a place that we try to be as well. Um, it's tough.
Speaker 2:Like you know, golf courses need to cater to everyone, and so I think they try to strike the balance of uh, you know, we've got the old guys who are in their seventies, like you said have been golfing this way and demand that their shirts be tucked in and that you wear this and that, and you've got people that are new to the game and don't want to buy golf clothes if they haven't even tried golf.
Speaker 1:yeah, I will say golf polos are some of the best clothes like dead summer. Yeah, if you're not a golfer, put on a golf polo man. You'll stay super versatile yeah, no, it is.
Speaker 2:it is a versatile fit, especially for the dads out there. But, um, yeah, I think. I think that a lot of brands like that are making good strides to help shift the tides of the stuffiness, but I think cost is going to be a problem for a while. And so, post-covid, a lot of local clubs jacked up their fees, jacked up their initiations, and they had weightless supply and demand. As I mentioned earlier, they had weightless and they could do it, and so maybe it'll take that changing to really do stuff. But you even see golf club brands coming out trying to counteract that as well be, more affordable because someone's going to.
Speaker 2:In every industry someone's going to try to do something cheaper for the same price?
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2:You see Costco getting sued for knocking off tailor-made irons which I love. That's awesome.
Speaker 1:Those are reselling like crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think they still are. So, yeah, they are doing a great job of they provide super cheap golf balls.
Speaker 1:I think they also got in trouble for, like, trying to knock off Titleist which, by the way, if you suck at golf, don't go out and buy a Titleist no, absolutely not, because it just ended up in the way I was so proud of myself this past weekend. I only lost three golf balls there you go not bad, yeah, so I'm like I feel like I should get extra strokes when I don't lose two sleeves of balls that's the nice thing about our uh facilities as well, as you don't lose, you can't lose, you can't lose your ball.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, I. I really hope that we're helping golf go in that direction, like that's the idea is make and our free membership policy, uh, or sorry, free guest policy uh is designed to encourage more people to get in the game as well. Uh, the way I put.
Speaker 1:it is yeah, because you said a member can bring three people.
Speaker 2:Exactly so. Members can bring free guests, and the way I put it is my wife's never going to pay $75 to go golf with me, but she'll come to a place like ours for free, bring some food and drinks and just have a good time like that. And we see other people doing the same with their significant others, their kids. And who wants to go buy clubs, buy the outfits and do all that stuff to take their kid out to a country club and they hate it. So like bring your kids.
Speaker 1:That's my biggest fear, dude, yeah, take your kid to the first tee.
Speaker 2:Take your kid to our place and try it out. If they don't like it, that's fine. Like, maybe they'll pick it up again. Maybe they'll pick it up like you would later in life Down the road.
Speaker 2:You know, when they're done playing real sports quote, unquote and looking for something more chill to do, like us. Yep, yeah, I think that golf is heading in the right direction. I think cost is still going to be a barrier for that, uh, but it is cool to see companies coming out with, uh, cheaper clubs, cheaper technology and cheaper apparel as well.
Speaker 1:I do think there definitely need to be some options where it's more affordable and expensive and affordable relative terms, like sure you know. I remember first moving to richmond and like restaurants that I thought were super expensive. Now I'm like that's an everyday meal.
Speaker 2:I was like, yeah, jesus 25 bucks a plate here like I can't afford this. Now I'm like restaurants that I thought were super expensive.
Speaker 1:Now I'm like that's an everyday meal. I was like Jesus, 25 bucks a plate here, like I can't afford this. Now I'm like, oh, that ain't bad, it's a good lunch. Let's talk about the, the expansion piece. So how long into having your first location, did you guys then decide that it was time to open up a second location?
Speaker 2:So we kind of expanded within ourselves. So the our first location. We just started out with one simulator with room for a second. Uh, so after our first winter we had enough members to justify the second simulator, which is, which is nice. So, uh, then, after a second winter there, we started to realize like, hey, this is where our customers are coming from.
Speaker 2:Uh, this is know, we're getting to this point of being full because, as a very small business like ours, we only have so much space and so we're very like in tune with how much our facility is being used, trying to provide some level of exclusivity so that if you want to book a tee time the same day, that's no problem. You're not booking weeks in advance or days in advance. It's 10 pm. You want to golf? No problem, right, go to our place. And so we started, probably after that second winter, kind of looking at options and this popped up as a good one, this being Rockets Landing where we're sitting today. And, yeah, it just made a lot of sense from a location standpoint with the development here and, as I mentioned earlier, like looking at our customer base, we had people coming from Chaco Bottom, from Churchill, from Manchester, and so we already had like customers who would immediately be members right without having to do any work, and so that worked out really well and I mean I think we're kind of still focusing on growing that Rocket Slanding location.
Speaker 2:We're really only one full winter in with the business here, and so winter being our peak season, which makes a lot of sense right. Like people want to do stuff indoors in the winter rather than the summer. We'll see how things keep going, but I guess that's kind of the idea or the plan is. If we fill up again and we see a place in the Richmond area that makes sense to expand, we'd be silly not to consider it and figure out what are the golf options in that area, what are the demographics, and just kind of figure out what makes sense next.
Speaker 1:Would you ever look at? Because, being in business for 10 years, this past year was the first time I used OPM. Business for 10 years, this past year was the first time I used opm. I was very against using any form of debt to grow a business, but it was a pride thing where I'm like I built this thing from the ground up. I used my own dollars. It was all my sweat equity.
Speaker 1:Blah, blah, blah yeah but I realized the direction I wanted to take this company. It was going to take me triple the time to get where I need to be if I didn't access other forms of capital.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So is that something that you guys are considering in the future? And, if not, why would you not look at taking on investors or access to capital and those things?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's something we're open to, for sure. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Did I get too deep on you? No, that's a fair question.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of things that I could talk deep on you. No, that's a fair question. There's a lot of things that I could talk about, right? Yeah, I don't know. That's a good. Let me think about that question for a second.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I mean the big thing with that is you know, I look at personal credit and business credit are two completely different things. Sure, like my wife's, the type where, type where, like she put something on the credit card, she wants to have it paid off within 48 hours. Like, doesn't like a penny to her name and debt. But in business, I mean, this may be a bad example, but you look at a guy like Trump who ultimately became a billionaire.
Speaker 1:He used nothing but other people's money and was able to grow himself to to that level. So there, there are pros and cons to it, but it's the thought process of you can get further much faster if you're accessing capital using other people's money.
Speaker 2:I know this interview isn't about me asking you questions, but what is your advice on finding the right partners and finding the right money sources, because I think that's probably the biggest concern we have. I'd be happy to work with someone else. I'd be happy to talk to someone about expanding. It's very easy to do with my brother, who I've known my whole life. I trust his work, ethic and all that stuff. How do you go about finding the right partners for growing your business, for getting money, for getting investment and that sort of thing?
Speaker 1:I've never gone the direction of investors, although I do have some investors lined up just after years of relationships.
Speaker 1:Um, the thing that I'm fearful about on that end is relinquishing too much control of my company yep the main reason a lot of us get in the business for ourselves is like I don't want to take orders from somebody else. So if you end up giving up too much of your company, then now you have a board or people that you have to go to and give reports and blah, blah, blah. I'm not interested in doing that. The access to capital piece just looking at whether it's small business loans or lines of credits and things like that that's actually way easier to get than I ever anticipated. I waited nine and a half years to even dig into it and and then come to find out like, oh, like.
Speaker 1:This is like my first uh, business loan yeah I got it within a week and a half of, like, filling out the paperwork that's amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's uh government efficiency. Yeah, well, I know chase bank.
Speaker 1:So you got sba loans. I haven't. I haven't gone that route. I've gone with traditional banks. But if you look at um, like chase bank for instance, I'll give them a quick plug because I actually am involved in the mentorship program with them, like they have a lot of great services for businesses yeah, thousand percent free.
Speaker 1:Um, but they actually have a thing going on for small businesses right now. Without even having to show your revenue, if you've been in business for at least a year, you can get qualified for up to 150 grand worth of credit from them, gotcha, which is insane like I I apply for a credit card with them without having to fill out much information and within 48,.
Speaker 1:No, it was that that night I got approved for like a credit card for like 40 G's, yeah, and it was like cause you're thinking in your head how long it took Cause my credit sucked when I was in college. Cause gotcha.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I college. Yes, everyone's stuck.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was on the college campus he was like hey, you get a free biggie t-shirt if you sign up for this credit card and I was like bet, of course, and then I went to the mall and racked it up and couldn't pay for it for like two and a half years and wrecked my credit, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I think it's it's first being able to separate mentally from the personal and the business aspect and recognizing that, like you know, there's certain things I know it's mainly you and your brother, but like I got payroll, like I got people I gotta take care of, yeah, and there have been times where it was like money's a little funny and payrolls like two days around the corner and just to have a line of credit that you can tap into, knowing that you have funds coming in the following week yeah it's like hey, I got access to a hundred thousand dollars on this and let me pull 10 g's out to help cover payroll and and then I'll pay this back next week.
Speaker 1:Um, really no scale. Yeah, so it gives you some breathing room, but um yeah, it seems like a slippery slope.
Speaker 2:I guess Some like in some cases I think you know you manage it well, but I think I could see other people going the wrong way.
Speaker 2:Oh you can a, especially because it's funny you mentioned Chase because I did apply for like a business account. I have a personal account with them and I got denied because we didn't have enough business finances at the time, right, and so I think that was probably a hurdle early on as well. It was all going to be a personal loan which I just we didn't want to take that risk at the time.
Speaker 2:So maybe now that we're getting to three, four years in business, maybe now it's something we can consider looking at more closely dude chase will give you between 50 to 100k like that and right, and that's the part of the scary part yeah, but that's part of the scary part too is like, uh, you know, if it's that easy, what? And so, yeah, I guess I'm just kind of skeptical.
Speaker 2:But yeah, and it's not but I'm not that I should be, but I just have always been that way and it works in my favor. A lot of times, oh yeah, questioning why things are.
Speaker 1:Oh, you definitely want to be questioned. I think a better thing for you would probably be a line of credit. Sure, so it's capital that you just have sitting there. You don't have to touch it if you don't need it, yeah, but it's like if the roof comes falling in and you're like, hey, I need a quick 20 G's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good.
Speaker 1:To some capacity, whether it's like you got an investor in your back pocket or you have a line of credit credit cards, whatever the case is, because I mean, if you're paying off the credit card each month, it's a free business loan.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, I think, to be honest, we would have loved an investor early on, someone to just talk ideas off of and provide their own advice, because my brother and I, like we're pretty like-minded individuals and so I think that would have been really helpful. And I still really appreciate any feedback we get from our members. Like if it's something negative, I actually love that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like tell me the things we're doing wrong. Yeah, like that's like I.
Speaker 2:You know I. We're just two people that are almost one. We have the same backgrounds, you know, we love the same things, and so I do wish early on it would have been great to have another investor, and maybe you are giving up some of your business, but maybe things go better too, and so it kind of depends on scale, because we're never going to be like a regional, national business, whereas you can work with anyone around the country, which is the nice thing about the business that you're in. Uh, so maybe it depends on scale as well, but it would have been great to have an investor, and still would be great to have an investor if we could expand a third location.
Speaker 1:Uh, so what is the expansion game plan for you guys? Because this is the thing I love about talking to entrepreneurs is we're all different in that capacity. Like some, like I literally want to rule the world. Like I want an enzo media firm in like 10 different states across the united states, because I think our model can work in so many different different ways. Then you have some people that are just like I don't want to staff, I don't want to have to deal with the personalities, I just want this business that's going to pay me six figures a year. I'm in a space that I enjoy doing blah, blah, blah. Then you have the mid-tier of that where it's like we want multiple locations, we want to have this, but we don't want to expand too far. So let's say it's five years from now. Where do you see this business being for you guys?
Speaker 2:I think ideally we're involved in some other locations, but maybe not the owners and operators. So like a franchise type model yeah kind of similar to that or almost like a consulting model, and so we've talked to a few different entrepreneurs about that and because if there's other companies today that offer franchises X-Golf is a franchise, Five Iron is a franchise they come with super high capital requirements what do they start at?
Speaker 1:like 50k, 100k, something like that?
Speaker 2:no, it's like minimum a million dollars. Jesus, are you serious? I think? 5-iron Golf, the average 5-Iron Golf is like 4 million. Granted, they're in big cities, they're in DC, they're in Philly, they're in New.
Speaker 1:York City.
Speaker 2:I think the minimum franchise you're better than mcdonald's there's a lot of ways to spend four million dollars I'll put it that way.
Speaker 2:But, um, so that was like an initial challenge for us as we looked into franchising and nothing made sense. There's nothing that was like uh within our budget, starting from uh scratch. So we decided to go that path. I think if we could be a resource for people locally, if we could be a resource for people in other parts of the country, where we are providing our expertise, sharing what we learned from opening two locations on our own from scratch, which has been super helpful, and so we're working on things like that. There's actually a couple guys who opened a similar facility down in Woodlake that we talked to about doing a kind of similar partnership, but kudos to them. They just kind of wanted to do it on their own and didn't think there was enough pieces of the pie to bring us in, which is totally fine, and I'm totally fine if that's your answer as an entrepreneur.
Speaker 1:At least you're having those conversations, because that's what we did, too right.
Speaker 2:We didn't involve anyone else at the time because we thought, hey, we can figure this out. If we don't, it's on us. If we do, it's on us too.
Speaker 1:Have you heard of a guy named Alex Ramosi before? So big entrepreneur like you may have come across his videos on Instagram. Big entrepreneur like you may have come across his videos on instagram. You need to read his stuff because basically, what he did for the gym industry is what you can do for the golf industry. So he had he was starting his own gyms and then found out that, like he was able to scale his own gyms up pretty fastly or pretty quickly, and then all these other gym owners across the country were like reaching out to him like, hey, man, can you show me how to scale this up? Like, how do I retain members? How do I do all this? So he ended up ditching. Eventually. He ended up ditching all his gyms, yeah, and now his whole business was just building other gyms no-transcript to us, like, hey, it seems like you guys are doing a great job.
Speaker 2:You're like opening a second location. Uh, I'm thinking of doing the same thing in oklahoma and syracuse and dc. Tell me everything you learned. It's like I'm not going to give you the answers to the test for free. Yeah, like this isn't middle school anymore.
Speaker 2:So how can we be partners? Because we I mean, I'll be the first to admit there's it's a two-way street, right? If we're partnering with someone, I expect to be able to learn things from them as well. And it goes back to like wanting a partner that I can bounce ideas off of too, because if you're an entrepreneur who wants to get in this space, I'm sure you have a lot of great ideas, a lot of great concepts that we have not thought of at all and like that would be beneficial to us as well. So it's less about like, hey, let's grow our empire and let's like take as much as we can from other people. It's more about like working with other entrepreneurs, connecting with other entrepreneurs, cause I said to you, I think, when we talked a couple of weeks ago, like I would love to just know more entrepreneurs in Richmond.
Speaker 2:There's so many people with like interesting backgrounds. Whenever I watch Shark Tank, I don't necessarily find that many products that are interesting, but it's always like the backgrounds and how they started their business, was it? Was it a side hustle? Was it? I quit my job and went all in. It's like so many interesting people in so many different ways to do it that get you thinking like of all the possibilities and ways that you could work on your business or your business.
Speaker 2:So that's the coolest part about just being an entrepreneur, I've found is just like learning other ways that people have done things and like I, the same way as you, I've never been the smartest person in the room, maybe the I try to be the hardest working Cause I think that makes up for a lot of deficits.
Speaker 2:And I think that makes a big difference. But yeah, I mean I, I think that you can learn something from everyone, no matter how much experience they have, no matter what industry they work in. It's always good to just talk to people and see what you can learn.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I learned something the other day. I'm obsessed with constantly learning, so when I'm in the car, it's podcasts, audio books. I always find the time throughout the day to read an article or sit down and crack a book open. And I heard from God what's his name? Byron, I can't remember his last name, um, prolific public speaker and he said something that rocked me the other day. He was like somebody asked him like is it hard in sales? Like a sale is a difficult thing to do, and his response was so simple, like I was like I'm dumb for not realizing this. He was like no, sales isn't hard if you're selling the people who want your product.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was like hold up so he like started breaking it down. He's like where most people are messing up with sales is that you're going and trying to like pitch your product to people who have no interest in what you're doing yeah, versus finding people who have already expressed a need for what it is that you offer and selling to them yeah, it gets a lot easier. Price point-wise, you can charge at the top, versus trying to find that person you're convincing to say hey, please come and buy your product.
Speaker 2:Yeah, price is so low that it's like. All right, I guess I'll bite Exactly, but when he told me that I was, like okay.
Speaker 1:I met with my team the next day. I was like all right, guys, we're going to do something different with sales moving forward. So I got some stuff. We're working on Nice. Let me ask you this I always like asking entrepreneurs this, because I didn't think about this 10 years ago Do you have an exit strategy? Because, as entrepreneurs, like you know, when you're working in corporate America, there's a nice 401k with a match and you got your health benefits, and maybe at a company where they have a pension plan in place for you, when you're an entrepreneur, there is no retirement plan automatically built in.
Speaker 1:You got to be investing in real estate or have your money in a brokerage account or, you know, planning to scale the business up to a certain level. And my thought was always this is my quote unquote baby, like I don't ever want anybody to take this over from me, but the older I get and the further I get in, business is like over from me. But the older I get and the further I get in business is like well, hold up. What am I really building here? Like, shouldn't the goal be to sell?
Speaker 1:like have some company come to me and say, hey, I'll give you 50 million dollars for an intermediate firm like yeah once you got that kind of bankroll, then it's like I got 50 other business ideas in my head. So it's like then I got the bankroll to go out and do some different things. What's your philosophy? Have you and your brother talked through that and said like hey, that we want to build it up to this point and then maybe we do the consultant piece where people fly us out and pay us 20 grand? Help us build their brand, or are you guys like we're doing this for the foreseeable future?
Speaker 2:It's a good question. I mean, it's something I've struggled with, Like I had a friend recently um ask me is, and I was like that's, I don't know what I'm doing tomorrow, Right.
Speaker 2:It's like uh life is crazy, business is crazy, um, and so it's something I'm working towards, uh, but I think that's really good advice. I mean, to anyone listening is like what is your long-term plan? Like what is the ideal situation for you? Am I still doing what I'm doing today? In 20 years? Maybe not Right. Maybe it is more of the consulting side, maybe it's not in this at all.
Speaker 2:Like 10 years ago I, four years ago, I never thought about owning my own business. I didn't have any plans to work in the golf industry, right? So who knows what will happen in another four years? And so, yeah, I think developing that strategy, though, and figuring out what your long-term goal is, is a great idea, because it helps with your expansion and growth opportunities as well, right, and so it's really that that friend's question that sort of sparked like, okay, that expansion piece and the maybe we can't add new facilities ourselves because we don't have the bandwidth, but maybe it's partnering with other entrepreneurs, being more of a consultant, sort of like franchising, as you put it. But I I would. I struggle to call it franchising, just because I don't think anyone needs to say, hey, we've got indoor golf short pump, we've got indoor golf Pittsburgh. I want to enable people to be entrepreneurs themselves.
Speaker 1:To more owner-operated with you guys. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:Tell me what you would do differently in Washington DC than like. Why would we copy-paste our business model in a different market if your goals are different, if you're in this for different reasons, and so like. Let us share our pain points. Let us share what we've learned. The commercial real estate piece I mentioned, which is a huge cost to the business, like us.
Speaker 1:Right now you're next door to a commercial.
Speaker 2:Yeah, shout out to Icon for connecting us as well. But yeah, I mean so, like stuff like that where we can be helpful but also say hey, look like you want to be an entrepreneur and you have. You must have good ideas, like go ahead and take care of those, and so. But yeah, it's a long-term plan. That's just such a struggle with where I'm in life.
Speaker 1:Like it's a. It's a hard thing as an entrepreneur because, like day to day, I mean we we got to go out and hunt literally every single day because at any given time, like people look at it and they're like, oh, you got two locations, or they come back here Like man, this is an awesome office and you don't know what's going on in the back end. No clue Like what people are seeing on the front end, like normally, the brokest people are driving the most expensive cars.
Speaker 1:Like the people with the $150,000 vehicle may have $5,000 in the bank. So like appearances aren't everything, but like, yeah, it's been a struggle for me too, just thinking. You know, I got in the business prior to getting married, like before I even knew my wife and we had kids. But my thought was always I want to have been in business long enough to be established so that when I do have kids, when they get to the age where it's like ballet recitals and soccer practice and all these different things, I don't have to miss those things because I have to go to my boss and ask hey, is it cool if I go do that?
Speaker 2:That's why you do this. That's why most people should do this. That's a dream right. That's why you do this. That's why most people should do this. Some people do it for the wrong reasons, but I like that yeah.
Speaker 1:But being able to think down the road. I'm the type of person that it's very hard for me to look backwards and say, oh, we accomplished this, we accomplished that Because I'm always looking at the next thing. I could close my biggest deal in company history today and I'll sip champagne for 10 minutes. Then I'm like all right, who's?
Speaker 2:next? What's the next one? Like it's, it's the hunger of the game, totally, um, do you, uh, do you guys have like a season like busy seasons, peak seasons? Oh yeah that is where I struggled as well.
Speaker 2:So like we're coming out of the winter which, as I mentioned earlier, super busy time, for us day to day it like hey, here's another person that wants to check out the facility, here's another person that wants to sign up for membership, and I just didn't have time to kind of think about long-term goals. So like those kind of uh ebbs and flows of like, oh, thousand percent, I have to put that short-term versus long-term hat on.
Speaker 1:So I always plan November, december. They're your best months, they're my worst months, because people are doing the holiday parties. Come work for me in November, December.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll come clean the bays up, man.
Speaker 1:But people are more focused on the company parties taking holiday trips and all that kind of stuff, so they're less focused on their marketing Plus. They've probably had a strategy and a game plan throughout the year for that, so we're typically not picking up new clients.
Speaker 2:They've probably had a strategy and a game plan throughout the year for that. So we're typically not picking up new clients and they're all running out of money. If they're a big company, their budgets are yeah, yeah. Exactly, haven't worked for big companies before. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Exactly, they're all cutting costs at the end of the year Beautiful thing for us is, like 85% of the clients that we serve are with us on a monthly basis, like they're signing contracts between six to 12, maybe November, december if you signed up in September, you know we still got you as a client going into the year.
Speaker 1:Normally, the first quarter of each year is our busiest time as, like it's the start of the new year. People are setting new goals. They're like all right, we got to get our website up to speed. We need some new video. We got to get the social media wallet, yeah, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:But I think that's a mistake. A lot of entrepreneurs make us thinking that it's all gravy throughout the year and like, oh, we're popping now, like this is never going to slow down. Like that's why I was probably in business for your brother's an accountant, so you guys are probably a lot smarter with this than I was. I didn't have a reserve account until at least five years into my business. Yeah, I didn't think about like oh, I should probably be saving. Some of this is coming through. Luckily, we never got back on taxes or anything like that. Yeah, but like just having that breathing room where it's like, hey, we got an opportunity. Like I need to go out and buy a $7,000 piece of equipment in order to do this $30,000 job.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like I wasn't thinking that way before or just the fact that, like hey, at any given month, like something could happen and like if we default on any side of our agreement, a client could just outright cancel, or a business that we're serving. We've had it happen before some small businesses that we were working with. They went out of business within three, four months of us starting to work with them and it's like I have no control over something like that, right you do sure.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it's always that projection in terms of not just financially, but like, okay, what's on the cusp? Like right now I'm like delving really hard into AI because that's dramatically going to shift my industry in terms of marketing. Now do I think it's going to fully replace what we do?
Speaker 2:Absolutely not.
Speaker 1:I think the storytelling component to what we can do as humans is much different, and AI is still a couple of years away from that. I do think there are certain sectors in terms of like graphic design where, like, ai is just going to take over with that, yeah, um, but it's forecasting and saying, okay, there's no point in fighting this, I know it's coming. How can I use that to my advantage as we scale and move forward? So I think that's that's the big thing, as an entrepreneur is like always having to look six to twelve months down the road and see, okay, what's coming, like, cause, if you see a report coming up saying you know, hey, 40% of adults are now getting into golf that were never exposed to the sport before.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're like okay, how am I going to house all these people? Yeah, like.
Speaker 1:I gotta be looking down the road like to to figure this out.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you one more thing as we wrap up Um this out. Yeah, let me ask you one more thing as we wrap up um. Being in business with someone you're related to can be a very tricky thing. Um, I've like my last boss. Him and his wife were running the company I work for, a mental health agency and number one I know me and my wife's marriage would not last if we were working the same business.
Speaker 1:Oh man, we just have said a long time ago because I'll have to tell her to do something and she ain't going to listen to me because she's the CEO of our house.
Speaker 2:I'm the CEO here, fair enough.
Speaker 1:I've always told people that can be a very tricky space to be in, because if you're both not in line, if the skill sets don't match, if you guys aren't complimenting each other, that can be a very difficult thanksgiving.
Speaker 2:If, yeah, you have to part ways and like things go downhill so how have you guys navigated that and what's the relationship been like running a business with your brother? Yeah, I've, um, it's, it's something everyone has to think about right before they go into business. Is it a friend, is it a family member? Um, the nice thing is that you, early on, think you can trust them and, like you have that relationship with them. But I've either just been very fortunate or I don't know what's going on.
Speaker 2:But no, we get along really well and so far, so good with that. I mean, we have disagreements, like most brothers do, but it's worked out pretty well. Yeah, I mean, I think we just very, very fortunately I've had a good relationship with him, that we run a business. That's pretty straightforward, that we're both aligned on. And maybe that's where a lot of people go wrong is, you know, one partner gets into the business for another reason than you, but things change over time or like your goals change over time, and what the long-term vision of the business looks like changes over time, and so I could see it going wrong for a number of reasons.
Speaker 2:But yeah, fortunately we have different strengths, which I think helps a lot as well, as I had mentioned before.
Speaker 1:That's the big. Thing.
Speaker 2:Different experiences, and so he takes on things that I don't know, I don't know or like, and I take things off his plate that you know that I can. So that helps a ton. And knowing our strengths and weaknesses, but also being like open to each other's feedback, uh, is something I think we've both been very good at.
Speaker 1:So, um, you just described a very healthy business partnership yeah, because the most successful. I've probably had 10 business partners up to this point in various businesses and the ones where the partnerships failed we were both going after the same thing. So, like here, I'm the face of the company. If you got two people that are fighting for that same space, it doesn't work. Like my most successful business partnerships guy, his I was telling you about earlier that I've launched a couple businesses with, he's a behind-the-scenes guy.
Speaker 2:Guy. He's an analytic guy. He does spreadsheets. I don't even know how to start.
Speaker 1:If you open up a spreadsheet and say, sam, I need you to make this. I have no idea how to do an excel spreadsheet, yeah, I can go and read a report on there and everything, but I'm not that guy. All the stuff I hated to do, he loved to do. Yeah, he didn't want to be out in front of the camera and do anything with the marketing. I love doing that stuff.
Speaker 1:He didn't want any piece of that, absolutely so like when you have that yin and yang balance, where it's like this person has these specific skill sets, the other one has these, and you're able to come together for sure whether it's a blood relative or a friend or whatever the case is like. I think those are the most successful yeah, no, it definitely helps a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I said, just very lucky, and I mean things can change. I mean you can be good friends with someone, have a good relationship with someone, and if your goal changes, that makes a big difference. But, yeah, it's fingers crossed keeps working.
Speaker 1:So, as we wrap up, kind of give us if people want to come check out your facility. So I know you can't just like walk into your doors, right? So if people want to get a tour or they want to inquire about memberships, how can they reach out to you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, indoor Golf RVA is our social media and IndoorGolfRVAcom is our website, so we're a 24-7 facility that's typically unstaffed. That's how we provide cost savings to our members. So you just have to reach out to request a tour if you want to come see the facility, or you can sign up for membership on our website. But, yeah, we're in Scott's edition, rockets Landing, and if you're looking to golf, I mean, 24-7 access is pretty nice. We have over 300 courses and it's just a good way to keep your game sharp, regardless of the season.
Speaker 2:Really, uh, and, yeah, lots of good people to meet. We have free social events. So for a lot of people that are new to golf trying to meet other golfers, it's a great way to do it. We got a lot of people that are, like you know, moved here, uh, from out of town and things like that, uh, so it's just a great way to kind of build that sense of community. That, uh, is what I love so much about golf. Right, it's just a great way to kind of build that sense of community. That is what I love so much about golf. It's just like getting people together and having a good time.
Speaker 1:Love it, love it. Guys. I checked out of this facility right before we jumped on the mics. It's definitely something you want to check out. I love the concept of 24-7. You're having a bad day, you put the kids down to bed and it's like, hey, I'm going to go hit some golf balls for a little bit. But hey, man, appreciate you coming on. I look forward to working with you in the future and hopefully getting some swings in over at one of your facilities here pretty soon.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks, man, appreciate it. Yeah, first podcast, as your listeners can probably tell, but appreciate you doing this.
Speaker 1:I know you did great man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is great stuff.
Speaker 1:I think it's a great way.