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You Can't Afford Me
Making the leap from employment to entrepreneurship can be a scary time. The biggest fear people have is the unknown. Here on the “You Can’t Afford Me Podast” we speak with hustlers and innovators on how to make the most of your journey. If you have questions we have answers.
You Can't Afford Me
Redefining Career Paths: A Conversation with Aaliyah of Otterwise
Have you ever hired someone who seemed perfect on paper but turned out to be completely wrong for the role? Meet Aaliyah, the 24-year-old founder and CEO of Otterwise who's tackling this universal problem with a refreshingly practical solution.
Fresh out of college and frustrated by her own career mismatch, Aaliyah built a platform that lets employers and candidates "test drive" working relationships before committing. Her company creates comprehensive, real-world assessments that reveal what resumes never could – how someone actually performs, collaborates, and fits within a team. For creative roles like videography and high-stakes positions like sales, where traditional hiring methods consistently fail, this approach is nothing short of revolutionary.
What makes this conversation particularly compelling is Aaliyah's journey as a young entrepreneur. With less than $5,000 and a self-imposed four-month deadline to reach profitability, she bootstrapped her way to creating a solution for both struggling employers and mismatched talent. Her insights on why Gen Z employees job-hop (they're seeking better fits, not avoiding work) and how college provides networking value but fails at actual career preparation are eye-opening for anyone managing today's multi-generational workforce.
The podcast also explores deeper questions about entrepreneurship – when to bootstrap versus seek funding, how imposter syndrome affects even the most confident founders, and why sometimes the most valuable aspect of starting a business isn't building an empire but developing skills that make you invaluable in any role.
Ready to transform how you hire and retain talent? Listen now and discover why traditional resumes might soon be replaced by something far more revealing – actual performance.
www.themrpreneur.com
Are you an aspiring entrepreneur? Our one-on-one coaching tailors strategies to your unique business goals. Dive into interactive workshops fostering skills essential for success. Looking for an inspirational speaker for your next event? Book Mr Prenuer to elevate your gathering. Visit wwwthemistrepreneurcom to learn more and embark on your path to entrepreneurial success. Mr Prenuer, empowering your entrepreneurial spirit.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the you Can't Afford Me podcast, where we skip the fluff and dive straight into the grind Real entrepreneurs, real struggles and the unfiltered journey behind success. Let's get into it. The Unfiltered Journey Behind Success let's get into it. Hey guys, thanks for joining us on another episode of the you Can't Afford Me podcast. Really excited for our guest today. So I met this young lady at the Big Dipper Summit here in Richmond which, by the way, was one of the best conferences I've been to in a long time Like a lot of great speakers, a lot of great information, and once she was on stage I was like I got to talk to her, like we got to get her on the podcast. So she has a very interesting business we're going to talk about today. And make sure I don't butcher your names. Pronounce your first name for me.
Speaker 2:Aaliyah, aaliyah.
Speaker 1:Okay, like, okay, the way it felt. I was like I don't want to screw that up, so we got Aaliyah on the podcast today. How are you doing today?
Speaker 2:I'm doing great Thanks. How are you?
Speaker 1:I'm doing good. Monday is my favorite day of the week, so most people's Friday they're looking forward to the weekend. I look forward to Monday, so I'm pumped to be here today. So in 60 seconds kind of give us a rundown of who you are and what you do.
Speaker 2:Well, my name is Aaliyah and I am the founder and CEO of a local startup here in Richmond called Otterwise. Essentially, we help employers and particularly early career talent go for a test drive for working relationships, career fit and pretty much anything that you cannot get from a resume.
Speaker 1:Beautiful, beautiful. So when you described it, I was like we need to talk because I may need this for my business. But let's start from the beginning. So you're not too far removed from college. You went to school at VCU.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:When did you graduate?
Speaker 2:In 22. So only three years ago now.
Speaker 1:And you were working on this business while you were at college.
Speaker 2:Not exactly. It was more so that the business was created because of a problem I identified while I was in college. And I started doing research on this topic, on the idea of career mobility, the college to career pathways and how the hiring process traditionally works. That's research that I'd started to get familiar with, actually in a capstone, while I was at VCU, but the business itself didn't come to fruition until I had been in my previous job for about two years and kind of got frustrated with the problem.
Speaker 1:Gotcha, what was the previous job you were at? You don't have to mention the name of the company, but what were you doing?
Speaker 2:I was doing IT consulting for a bunch of federal agencies, which is both as exciting and as boring as it sounds. But all in all, what I ended up kind of realizing while I was there was that it wasn't the right career fit for me, right career fit for me, and it's the kind of thing where I'd always wish there was a better way for me to have kind of tested that out before committing to the job and being stuck there for a little while, because it there's nothing, no hate against this company I do actually love. I love this company. It just wasn't the right fit for my own values and personality and needs in a working environment.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:And a lot of those kind of dynamics and the little nuances that play into what that equation looks like for a person. It's not something that you know in an academic setting. It's something that you have to go out into the real world to figure out hands-on.
Speaker 2:And it's also why we have so many people, especially those in my generation, that are kind of known for job hopping, because we have this strong mindset around. We, you know, we don't want to settle, I guess, in our careers, so we have a higher tendency to job hop, looking for the right thing. But, you know, in a way it's also shooting us in the foot, and I just kind of wanted to build a better way for people like me to be able to not just explore career opportunities, but also to be able to showcase their skills to employers and gain access to opportunities that they otherwise wouldn't be seen for.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right. So a lot to unpack right there. So first, let's first talk about your leap into entrepreneurship. So you're doing what I wish I had started doing much earlier. Like I didn't start my first business until I was 30 years old, so it's been 10 years for me now. So to hear, when I hear people your age, like not too far out of college, and you immediately jump into entrepreneurship. What was that like for you? Was it? You had other entrepreneurs in your family and you're like this is the move I got to make. Like I think a lot of people don't realize as entrepreneurs it's not necessarily like we hate having a boss or all these different things. It's just like, hey, there's something cool I want to do. I don't see it in the marketplace, so I'm just going to go out and do it myself. So what was your reasoning for going out on your own?
Speaker 2:I didn't have entrepreneurs in my family or not close to me in my family, I guess.
Speaker 2:So that wasn't the driver. It really was just from pure passion and, like you said, seeing a market need that you just desperately wanted filled. But it was scary and because I knew how big of a risk it was and everyone was telling me that I was crazy. They're like you're gonna give up your stable nine to five that pays you well, by the way, to start something that probably isn't going to make you money for at least a few years. Even you know that's assuming it is successful Like it's such a gamble.
Speaker 1:But that's when you know you're on the right path, when people tell you you're crazy.
Speaker 2:Right. It's like it's both very nerve wracking to hear people saying I don't know if you should do that, and also very encouraging because it also kind of for me, it kind of validated that hunger, I guess. But it's not. I don't think that entrepreneurship is for everyone, but I don't think it's for so few people either.
Speaker 2:Like you really don't need to. I don't know. You don't need to have your entire life figured out. For me, it was more so. I wanted to start this company now because I saw the need right now and you know, my passion was there now. I felt like I have a unique advantage to solve this problem right now. But also I know that I'm young and I'm scrappy and I'm kind of at that point of life where I can take risks and can kind of afford to take those risks. For example, if I guess in my mind, if I had started family and then was trying to do this, it could potentially put my entire family's lives in jeopardy.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Because, if you know, if my business goes under, then how am I going to be able to provide for them? I didn't really want that to be, you know, a factor in terms of me developing this business. I just wanted to be able to focus on solely what this business needs to thrive and what I need to thrive, and it's a much smaller problem when I break it down, at least at this stage of life.
Speaker 1:Yep. So what are you? Are you 23, 24?
Speaker 2:About to be 25. Oh, about to be 25. 24.
Speaker 1:Yeah, at that level, like I mean, you're probably still on your parents' insurance, so like you don't have to worry about things like that with health. Like my average employee here is like 24 years old, so when I was ready to offer health benefits, most of them are like nah, bro, I'm good, like I'm still in my parents' insurance. But it's like at that age, like you know, you're already out the house. But like, if worse came to worse, like your parents aren't going to shut the door, like the opportunities there, different family members, things like that but also being able to fail quick.
Speaker 1:It's like you have so much more time to like continue to build and as an entrepreneur, you can always go back and find a job. Like people think, like just because we go out and start a business, like now, me, it would be very difficult at this point in my life to go back and work for someone else because I've been so used to doing it on my own for so long, so it would be a big bullet to bite for me. But you know, when you're at that younger age, in your early 20s, where you can just like go, take that leap of faith, it's like yeah, I don't have kids. I don't have a husband. I don't have to worry about any of this other stuff. If not now, then when?
Speaker 2:See, that's the thing I feel like when it comes to entrepreneurship. When you're're young in particular, you don't really your end game doesn't have to be being CEO of this company forever. It actually looks really, really, really good on your resume alone to have entrepreneurial experience, and I wish a lot more people of the new generation entering the workforce knew that that's a good point.
Speaker 2:Because a lot of people struggle to get opportunities.
Speaker 2:I mean, heck. That's why I started this company to help other people get opportunities. But it's crazy how much weight trying to go out and do something on your own can actually carry in your future employment conversations too, because it takes a certain kind of grit and you have to wear a lot of hats and you have to take a lot of initiative. You're having to figure everything out on your own because there really is no playbook for entrepreneurship like you think. There's not. There's not, and that just what you have to go through in order to make that successful, even at a small scale, carries so much weight, because it's a skill that most people will never be able to develop in their careers if they don't go off and do something like this. So it actually at least in. You know, in my field I help a lot of people try to stand out in the workplace. Almost every single person I've worked with that has tried to do something entrepreneurial on the side has been able to land a job at least twice as fast as their peers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's an interesting stat. Didn't know that. Let me ask you your opinion on I like we, we may have similar views on this. Knowing the path that you've taken, what's your view on higher education? I, my theory is that I don't just like with entrepreneurship, I don't think it's for everybody. Same thing with college, I don't think it's for everybody. I think our society pushes people in that in terms of like hey, you're 18. You're a loser if you don't go to school, but you can go directly into a trade, you can start your own business, you can travel abroad for a while. I think there are a lot of options there. What's your thought If you could redo it? Do you see a huge benefit from attending college and then starting this business? How would you do things again?
Speaker 2:Yes, but it's not the benefit that you would expect to get out of college. I fully agree with you and everything you just said.
Speaker 1:Can I guess what you think the benefit is?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Networking.
Speaker 2:There you go, it's really it's. I wish I knew that before, because I think that you know college is normalized and that's you know. That's okay, but we have normalized it to the point where the expectation is that you go to college to get a job. Your goal is to graduate with a job that is relevant in your field. The problem is over half of students at every single university in the country will either graduate unemployed or underemployed. I think that statistic is nearing 60% now of students that are graduating will be either unemployed or underemployed. So there's some sort of problem there in terms of the expected outcomes of a college degree.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but you shouldn't have a master's degree and you're a barista at Starbucks.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:You spend all that money.
Speaker 2:Right, it's like that Starbucks barista isn't going to really help you pay off your student debt and it's not necessarily going to be relevant to your you know career goals, or at least for the most part, it probably won't. And that's kind of where we have this frustration, or at least students are having frustrations with higher education right now, and I think a big problem is one college isn't for everyone and a lot of us we just do not know what our options are getting out of high school, because it's kind of been drilled into our brains that we have to go to college in order to figure stuff out. The thing is, college isn't. College is meant to be an exploration period, absolutely, but the fact that we have this expectation to graduate with the job, there's a little bit of a, there's a little bit of head-butting that's happening here, because you can't really do both at the same time and in an academic setting.
Speaker 2:Really, what you should be looking for, if you do try to take the college route especially, is how can you go out of the academic setting, how can you leverage the network of an academic setting to gain opportunities that will further advance your career and help you actually test out the job that you want to go for. So internships, apprenticeships, co-ops, even volunteering, and part-time work even not being a full-time student and picking up other jobs on the side to kind of help supplement and bring you closer to that Like experience really does carry a lot of weight and it's yeah, it's really difficult to get right now, but ultimately, if you're going to go to college, the only way to graduate successfully, in my opinion, is if you are going out of your way to find some sort of experience to help, I guess, boost up what you're learning from your degree.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:My long-term view because, like my kids are my daughter's five and my son's about turned four this year, so I got a long time before college. But my ultimate view and I think NIL deals with sports and things like that are going to dramatically change higher education here in the next few years. My ultimate vision for college is the perfect setup for me, one. You still have the same setup in terms of dorms, fraternities, sororities, all that. You get to experience all that side of college, but just replace the lecture hall with internships so that you're not just sitting in a room. Because the biggest problem I've always had is now you can major in entrepreneurship and I feel like a lot of the professors that are teaching on this are not entrepreneurs. So the fact that you're being taught entrepreneurship from someone who's not an entrepreneur, I got a whole issue with that.
Speaker 2:I'm one of the students that went into entrepreneurship as part of my degree and kind of came to that reality. Yeah, you kind of learn the basics but ultimately, whether or not your professor is an experienced entrepreneur, I'd say, like you know, the expectation is they should be. But even if you know whether or not they are, really it is. You have to do it. You have to do it to learn.
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely yeah. I think that experience that you get the networking piece, like the first three businesses I started were all with people that I met in college, so networking to me was the greatest thing that I got out of college. Let's dive into your system. So, first off, how did you come up with the name of the company?
Speaker 2:It was a late night pun, actually a university pitch competition that I was competing in at the time and this idea had kind of just been birthed, maybe two weeks beforehand, and I needed a name in the 11th hour. So my sister and I actually were staying up late trying to come up with like brand stuff.
Speaker 2:So, logos and names and everything. And at one point she was like, can you explain what you do? But like, in a bunch of different weird ways. And at one point I said it helps people gain access to career opportunities they otter-wise wouldn't have access to. And she's like did you say otter-wise? And I'm like I guess so, but I'm just tired. And she's like, no, we're going to run with that. And she, being an art student, comes up with a whole like little otter logo. And it was. It just stuck. We didn't think it would, but it it did ultimately. And now the little um otter mascot bugs people like the duolingo bird.
Speaker 1:It's fun, yeah I think people put way too much emphasis. I've seen a lot of people when they're starting up a business, they will hold up their whole business model because they're trying to find the perfect name for their business.
Speaker 1:And at the end of the day it really doesn't matter. I tell people Google was not a word that existed before. They made it mean something. Typically my process we're figuring out and I've done nine, ten businesses up to this point. Typically my process is I'll just put out one-word descriptions of what the service is that we're providing and then I'll look up the synonyms to that and I'll look up those synonyms and other languages and like I'm just doing a hodgepodge of stuff and normally within an hour, hour and a half I can land on a name. And that was before, like AI and chat. Gpt got big, so like now it's like way easier to figure out that piece. So let's actually do kind of like a live piece here in terms of your service, because when you and I briefly talked, um, you were saying this is an industry that you see a big need for the services that you provide. So let me kind of give you the pains that I have as an employer trying to hire in the marketing space and you kind of walk me through how your system can alleviate some of that pressure from me.
Speaker 1:So biggest issue I have with hiring creatives you never know what you're getting until they start Particularly, let's go on the on the videographer side. So a lot of times, you know, somebody submits their resume to me. You know I look through their resume, said, hey, this sounds good, I need to see some samples of your work and they'll send me links to various videos or whatever. I looked through their resume and said, hey, this sounds good, I need to see some samples of your work and they'll send me links to various videos or whatever. And nine times out of ten, I'm looking at them like, oh man, this is awesome. Like I can get somebody that can produce at this level for this price point. Yeah, I'm ready to interview this person. And then, once I get them started, I find out well, hey, what happened with that kick-ass video that you sent me before? That was awesome. Like I'm not seeing that kind of work for. Oh no, I was just doing the lights on set for that. Like it wasn't me actually filming or recording or editing or doing any of those things. Um, so now the process I have.
Speaker 1:I have a three-step process for hiring and again, we're just going to stick with videographers. So the first thing, I look at their resume. If I'm somewhat interested, uh, I uh book a zoom meeting with them. Number one I don't want to waste the time of somebody coming here and showing around the office doing X, y and Z If I don't know this is going to be somebody that's going to be a good fit. I'd rather just have a quick 20-minute conversation with them first. Second meeting if they pass that first, then I bring them in person for an interview where they're also going to meet some other people from my team and they're going to sit in on the interview process. So this is basically me saying hey, I think this person may be a good fit. I need to get you guys opinion, see how you like this person. All right, cool, they pass the second step.
Speaker 1:The third step for videographers is I actually bring them in for a stress test. So they come in, I let them know hey, I want to do a quick video on this subject matter. We can film in the studio, we can film outside. We can film here wherever in the studio, we can film outside, we can film here wherever you want. Here's 10 minutes with the team. They're going to show you whatever gear you need, lenses, whatever. They're going to get you set up.
Speaker 1:You got 10 minutes to kind of figure out the concept that you want to do with me for this video. We go, we shoot it and after we're done with it, you got 60 minutes to edit and from there that's the last step of the interview process. Now I'll have several people in this step, so then I can also see number one, how they interacted with the team. So after they do that, I'll go to my team. Hey, how do you think she did? Or how do you think he did? Okay, did you think they listened to some of the things you were saying? Were they able to take?
Speaker 1:you know criticism X, y, z, and then I'll select the person from that batch of people that we got video from. So with your system and this is something I just recently started doing so like it's been a painstaking for nine and a half years. I'm just starting to figure this out. What can implementing your model and your system in my business? How can that help solve those issues?
Speaker 2:Well, first of all, I'll start by saying I applaud you for what you've implemented so far, because that's actually far better than most hiring processes I've seen just across the board.
Speaker 1:That's just from a lot of pain, right.
Speaker 2:Well, that's the thing is, you need to go through the really hard failures to be able to learn the lessons on how to do this right, and it sounds like you understand what is needed in order to properly vet a person. So that actually does give me a lot of confidence. So that actually does give me a lot of confidence. I guess where a company like mine would step in is we would be able to help ensure that process, especially the part when you were talking about having them do an actual project, a hands-on like stress test. You said, yep, making sure that that stress test is more comprehensive of everything to be expected on the role, bringing up as little, I guess, bias as possible, and also making sure that any insights you're gathering are as data-backed as possible.
Speaker 2:So we kind of help companies do the same kind of thing where we design stress tests for their roles, but we make sure that it tests every aspect of what the job is, rather than just, I guess, having one simulation that you can do in a day, we can kind of test how someone will respond to different needs throughout the role, even the mundane ones, throughout the course of, let's say, like a week or two, and we can also position ourselves in the eyes of at least the career candidate in a way that makes it so that we're also gathering plain feedback from them on their own impressions of the company, on how they feel like they're going to genuinely fit here and whether or not they genuinely think that this opportunity in particular will advance the career that they want to build. Basically, we try to position ourselves as a middleman, in a way that the candidates know that our goal is to help support them, not to necessarily. We're not the employer, we're not the ones with our eyes on them. So they can be a little bit more honest with us.
Speaker 1:But you're getting it from both sides. But we're getting it from both sides. You're helping out the potential employee.
Speaker 2:Exactly. For us, it's all about transparency and positioning ourselves as a party that can provide more transparency to both sides. Basically, we're kind of helping in a way that candidate vet the employer as well, because if both parties are not able to properly evaluate whether they're the right fit for each other, then you're ultimately going to have one side kind of selling themselves to the other, and as soon as you have one person that feels the need to kind of sell themselves, you introduce the bias and you introduce um lies, lies, yeah, I didn't know how to say it, but that's kind of what it is.
Speaker 2:It's like you unintentionally lie um, like because you're just you know you're desperate for it.
Speaker 2:So you're going to say whatever you need to say to be able to get the job right. We make sure that none of that is happening. So we work with them. Before working on the project with an employer, we work with them during it and we also interact an employer we work with them during it and we also interact with your team. We do collect a lot of feedback on how does this person show up on your team and do you feel like they would actually add to the culture here, or do you think?
Speaker 2:that there's some sort of risk. We kind of have a more systematic way of asking those questions.
Speaker 2:I guess systematic way of asking those questions, I guess, and then, on the project itself, we come up with quantifiable and qualitative ways to be able to test not just how do these skills actually show up, can they do the job, but also just how do they show up to the job. What are they going to look? What can you expect them to look like on a day when they're very stressed? What can you expect them to look like on a day when they're, you know, fully relaxed? And how can you, as an employer, better show up to support this candidate in that role?
Speaker 1:So you're getting a bit of their personality too, almost like one of the what's, one of the lists where you figure out somebody's personality and their language that you need to communicate with. So I really like that piece. So how does the communication move forward? Is this something digitally? You guys are calling them Like how often is the communication between the potential employee and the employer Like, what does that look like?
Speaker 2:Between the employee and the employer. That piece is actually kind of up to you, because an employer can kind of be as hands-on or hands-off in this process as we want them to be. We encourage them to be more hands-on, though, just because, you know, develop that relationship now, you know, make sure that you get to know them just as much as they're going to try to get to know you, instead of just having us do a little bit of the vetting. It does help supplement our process a lot, just because we can also ask you the questions that you might not think to ask yourself about hiring this employee.
Speaker 2:And the more you get to know them, the easier that piece is on us. In terms of our interaction with the candidates, again, it can be situational, but as of right now, we at least have touch points with them once a week where we're gathering a lot of feedback on how this role is translating to their goals and their lives and how they're showing up in it. Same thing with like one at least once a week touch points with clients and and right now it's like once a month or twice a month touch points with the rest of the team as well, okay, but it's.
Speaker 2:It's kind of situational, because every business is different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what would you say? Because I can see this. First off, I love this business model Like this is absolutely genius. Because it doesn't matter. I mean, I've owned a variety of businesses and it all. The hardest thing about being an entrepreneur is managing a staff.
Speaker 1:Like it's literally the hardest thing. And then finding someone who has the right skillset but also their personalities mesh with the team Like that's a big piece of it. Like for us, especially like when I send somebody to do video, they're also going to be interacting with the client, so I need someone who's going to represent the company Well they're not going to make offhanded jokes that make us look bad. Like they're going to know how to make a client feel comfortable in front of the camera. A lot of people, they're doing this for the first time. And it's like you can't just turn on the camera and be like, all right, go. Like you have to be able to walk them through and coach them through that. What industries do you see that a service like yours this is like the one of the biggest needs in certain industries? Like, are there a top five of industries where you're like this is where we're going to excel at?
Speaker 2:The creative industry in general is is definitely up there, just because, like you said, you have to do a lot more than just the, even the creative aspect of the job. So much of it is people, yep, um, and really, actually really any it's more so job functions than industries that we're seeing the need in um, any, any job function where you see a high need to work with clients in particular or across like multidisciplinary teams in particular. That's kind of where it's difficult to vet. It's difficult to vet the people skills, the interpersonal skills, and that's kind of where we thrive because we figured out a way to do that. You know, rinse and repeat.
Speaker 1:Gotcha.
Speaker 2:So it does work very well in a lot of creative professions. It also works really well in um startup and tech startups in particular that kind of have this, you know, move fast and break things kind of mindset, but they need someone that's able to adapt to that kind of environment um, yeah, they get a check for 10 million dollar investment.
Speaker 1:They're just like higher, higher, higher, higher yeah versus taking the time like to really go through that piece yeah, yeah it's.
Speaker 2:it's difficult to, especially if you're like a founder and you know your attention has to stay on your business strategy, client acquisition, that kind of stuff you don't really have time to focus on, like you know. You get to a point where you don't have time to focus on discovery or sales calls, or at least outreach ones. So we've seen a lot of applicative use in our model testing, for example with sales roles, which is really hard to vet for.
Speaker 1:That is one of the hardest, if not the hardest, position that I've ever attempted to hire for, because you literally do not know what you're getting until you hire this person. And the gamble with a business like mine is that, okay, I'm going to pay you a base salary and, you know, offer commission to fill in some gaps, but it's like I mean, I could be a few grand out the hole and you don't close one sale for us and like. It's like how do I truly understand if someone can close like, based off of what they tell me in the interview process? Are you trying to reach decision makers, entrepreneurs and sales professionals? Then you can't afford. Me is your next marketing move.
Speaker 1:With six episodes a month and a growing audience of CEOs and industry leaders, your brand won't just be heard, it'll be remembered. Advertisers can place audio ads on our podcast and even secure visual placements in our full length YouTube videos. This is where smart brands earn attention. Lock in your ad spot today before your competitor does. Email sam at enzomediafirmcom to receive more information. I want to go back to the foundation of this business for yourself, because you're only a couple of years out of college. You're working full-time. How did you get this business off the ground? Did you use OPM other people's money? Were you able to save up within that two year period of time, like and this is probably more on the software end like sounds like all the things that you're putting together. There is some IT and software components to this. That stuff ain't cheap, so how did you get this off the ground?
Speaker 2:Bootstrapped. Actually, I did have, you know, money saved up from my old job, so for a very long time it was okay. Let's just, you know, let's just see what I can build while working out of my own pocket, yep, which, admittedly, is not the smartest idea, so I'm not going to recommend that to everyone.
Speaker 1:I did it times 10 and I just discovered other people's money last year, so that's definitely the way to go right, it's, yeah.
Speaker 2:The other thing is for me, getting other people's money involved meant, um, that I have to. I have to worry about outcomes a little bit more. I guess, like do I only have myself to disappoint, or do I have other people's equity at stake?
Speaker 2:yep um, and at least starting out, when it was a lot more risky, I was like let me just see what I can do on my own for a little bit, and let's just see if we can bootstrap, because if you can bootstrap a business, oh my god, don't. Don't seek funding if you don't have to yeah, no, no, no.
Speaker 2:Don't seek funding if you don't have to don't seek funding if you don't have to, because if you can prove viability for your business through you know like client revenue, then do that. That's the looks better anyways, even if you plan on fundraising later. Um, an investor is going to love if you bootstrap for as long as you can before seeking fundraising anyways.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Cause. That's not free money. We got to pay that stuff back, Right exactly?
Speaker 2:fundraising anyways, absolutely that's not free money. We got to pay that stuff back, right, exactly. So I, knowing that, I decided to try to see. Okay, how quickly can I get, like paid pilots, off the ground?
Speaker 2:or something like that. You know, I kind of I made sure. I guess that the the little caveat is if you're going to bootstrap and you're going to be asking people for, like, paid pilots especially in the b2b world like you have to make sure that expectations are very, very clear as to what that pilot actually looks like. You need to be careful with outcomes as well, um, so that it doesn't accidentally tank your business in case something goes wrong. But as long as you can kind of be honest with your prospective clients and sell the value of what you're developing, build in some sort of safeguard for when things go wrong for both parties, like it's very it's not too difficult to be able to get other people, like your clients, to be able to be the ones buying into your idea. You know you don't really have to do it alone and you don't necessarily have to rely on other people's money. I really didn't have that much money starting out this business, so for me it was like Give us a ballpark under 5k to get the business off the ground.
Speaker 2:I had like a runway of when I, when I'd quit my job to start this. I think I only had a runway of like four months or something. I was like four months to profitability.
Speaker 1:Let's go.
Speaker 2:To some people it's going to sound like a lot of time. To a lot of people it's going to sound like a little time. That ain't nothing. It's nothing.
Speaker 1:But that puts you. So you're probably one of those ones that thrives under a little bit of pressure, like when I feel like. I had a chat with my CFO last week and he was like here's where I need you to be, and to me nothing juices me up more than saying he's like hey, I need another 20 grand on the bottom line of monthly revenue. All right, cool. So I'm looking forward to emailing him throughout the next two weeks Like, yo, just close this at this price. You'll just close this. I just close this at this price. You'll just close this. I only got 10 more G's to go. Boom, boom, boom. I got to thrive under that pressure.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about a little with, like, how the market has shifted in terms of the younger demographic. So I guess I'm an unk now. I'm like becoming that older dude in the industry. But back in my day, like when you went to work for a company, you stay there for a long period of time. I was always able to work my way up in a company and it was never a situation like, okay, it's been a year, I haven't gotten the raise, like I'm moving on to the next thing, or that, hey, this isn't really speaking to my purpose and like fulfilling my soul. Blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1:Like, at certain points in your life I feel like in your twenties, and your twenties is where you're supposed to be the brokest. You 20s, and your 20s is where you're supposed to be the brokest. You were supposed to be broke in your early 20s. This is a time to level up on your skill set, to make as much money as you can, learn what you can, and then in your 30s is where you really start to excel.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of people don't realize like I looked this up the other day the average successful or multimillionaire entrepreneur, the average age of an entrepreneur at that level is like 45, 46 years old. So I think often we see people like you in their early 20s, mid 20s, that are like rolling straight out and kicking butt, and that may just be the perspective that everyone's seeing on the outside. They're not seeing the work and the late nights and all those things that you've put in. But you know Instagram and TikTok and all these things make it look so easy. So talk to us about like what you're seeing in terms of the shift patterns with the younger demographic, in terms of why they're not staying at organizations for extended periods of time.
Speaker 2:Now, I think that especially Gen Z kind of has this we're not taking crap mindset Yep, I what? What kind of drove that mentality? I don't think there's like one cause, but I know that COVID was a big part of it too. We've kind of just been, we've been taught, or we've taught ourselves, that ultimately, like a lot of life is unfair. So not to take something that isn't going to serve you, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think your generation correct me if I'm wrong you guys seek the experiences more than the finances. Like someone of your generation, is much more likely to move into a tiny home, versus someone like me. Like the dream home is 4,000 square feet. We got the pool in the backyard. I know my kids can run around the backyard. My wife is like she wants our house to be the house that all the neighborhood kids want to come and hang out at. But you guys don't value those things as much as my generation does.
Speaker 2:That is also true. I think a big part of that is a lot of us have been hearing that in a way like the American dream is dead. You know, that's kind of what a lot of us are starting to.
Speaker 1:Partly, it definitely is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and partly. And is it still achievable? Yes, you got to work really hard. Of course it looks. It's a different path to success than it ever looked like it was before.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:But either way, a lot of people have kind of just started to realize, you know, maybe that I might not end up in a house like that, but I can see happiness, you know, here instead, you know. So we started kind of adjusting our expectations as a result, while also learning to put our foot down more. It's. It's weird. It is the generation that is more okay with calling things out as we see it and kind of putting our foot down as we need it. At the same time, it's a generation that also needs to hear that sometimes you really need to go through the process to get where you want to be. Like you're not going to jump straight into that six figure role. You know you're not going to.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad you said that, because I mean part of it is that like, hey, nothing worthwhile is going to come easy, you got to put in the time. But like it just seems and I've experienced this as an employer where it's like I'll never forget I had this one kid and he's actually blown up on TikTok since. I'm like really proud of him. Like he's figured out his own career path but hired him on literally at the time of my business. He was the best and fastest editor I've ever hired in my life. Like the kid was running circles around everyone and he wasn't breaking a sweat doing it at all and he came from his previous job. He was like a bus boy and waiting tables and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:So I'm like, bro, you're living the good life now, man, you get to come into an air conditioned office. Like you get to sit on your butt, like you're doing creative work, like you're out filming all this fun stuff. Um, he was with us for six weeks and he came to me and said, yeah, man, this corporate work really ain't for me. I think I'm gonna go back to a bar or you know, being a waiter and busting tables and I'm like what you would rather run around on your feet for 12 hours a day living off tips, than to have this what I would consider, especially at his age a high paying job where you get to be creative, you're not being micromanaged like, you have this flexibility. And yeah, he took off and and that's what he did.
Speaker 1:But I also feel like a lot of this generation. It's like I don't understand how people are working and paying their bills, like it just seems like they're always like hey, well, I'm just gonna go off and figure this, figure this out. I feel and as I'm saying that out loud, I feel like there is a touch of entrepreneurship in this generation, way more than there was before. Even if these people haven't identified that they want to be entrepreneurs, they're working on that path where it's like, if this doesn't feel right to me, like I'm just going to figure it out, like I'm not, I'm not afraid to struggle that much because I'll figure it out.
Speaker 2:Well, we've also seen a lot more people like keen on dabbling in entrepreneurship from this generation, to whether or not they actually end up going off and pursuing it. A lot more people are considering that as an option, or at least as a temporary option, to get their feet wet, which is actually a feet wet, which?
Speaker 1:is actually really you mean as a side hustle?
Speaker 2:Yeah, as a side hustle, which is really great to see actually, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Because, like we said earlier, that gives you skills that a lot of people don't have. But going back to that mindset, I think it's again. We've been taught like you really need to put your foot down, you need to set those boundaries, but we're also learning to set those boundaries before also understanding, um, a lot of how that job market really does work. So people are kind of shooting down opportunities sometimes that they should be open to because it could lead to something else. But you just don't necessarily know that because you just see how it's not serving you and you want to get away from it you know there's a different way to get away from it.
Speaker 2:You can leverage opportunities to get your next one a lot sooner than just kind of sticking around. You know you don't have to stick with a job. You shouldn't stick with a job because you hate it of course not but you shouldn't necessarily quit it and go to something else that you know isn't going to serve you just because you also hate this one. Like find a way to make sure that you're always moving forward somehow, and like leveraging the opportunities that you currently have is not a skill that a lot of us know how to practice, which is why it's it's part of what I try to teach the candidates that we work with, because, again, we mostly work with early career talent who do not know how to articulate their skills in the language of the workforce.
Speaker 2:So the more we teach them how to do that and how to actually make sure that they're moving forwards and not necessarily backwards, actually make sure that they're moving forwards and not necessarily backwards, the closer you can get to having, you know, this generation entering the workforce like with more of an open mind than we currently are.
Speaker 1:Yep, one of my favorite quotes is from big YouTuber Casey Neistat. He's this big videographer and he said he used to like be washing dishes and things like that before his career took off. Him and his brother His big break. Him and his brother were started producing a show I think it was nice to have brothers for hbo and I was like their big breakout moment um. And he said the best advice he ever got was stay in a job that you absolutely hate, because every waking moment at that job you'll be thinking about what you wish you were doing. And that kind of helps you like figure out your path in terms of man, if I wasn't stuck here washing these dishes right now, what would I be doing? And your mind can start to go from there, like maybe you're thinking, oh, I'd be at the park, like playing with my dog, like playing Frisbee with my dog. Okay, is there something in the animal space that you could be doing career wise, whether that's a vet or a pet groomer or adult professional dog walker, whatever it is, but it just gets your mind going in that direction. One thing I wanted to ask you in terms of you know, at the age of 25, I was impressed by the way you handled yourself on stage at that summit. Like, I mean, we had some massive names at that summit. I mean Tony Bennett, the head coach of uva when they won the championship back in 2019. My guys at earn your leisure, jordan rashad, like that, they were the whole reason.
Speaker 1:I bought a ticket, uh, for that event. Um, I mean, it was just speaker after speaker, like the ceo of dominion, like big names. Um, where did you get that skill set? I know for me, like doing public speaking, I did theater and show choir, like in my early years, like growing up in school, and that kind of brought me to the stage and I realized, man, I do like the shining lights and I like being in front of large groups of people. Where did you hone that skill set?
Speaker 2:Actually, I also probably developed it in theater when I was in like as early as middle school as early as middle school. But more realistically, I think that there was a point. I was very fortunate to have this opportunity. I think that when I was in high school I was the kind of person who tried to do it all. So I was in a lot of clubs and I think in one of them in particular, we had a very competitive competitive culture, I would say, and I kind of heard it was in the stem field as well. It was a robotics team and I heard one too many times that I was a girl and I couldn't do this.
Speaker 1:So that right.
Speaker 2:It lit a fire under me, though, and I think I just started sticking up for myself more, and I started learning how some, like you know, public speaking skills that I developed in in theater and in choir actually, um, could help me better advocate for myself, I guess. Yep, um, and learning I.
Speaker 2:I guess I started learning from that age um that you really you really do have to presentation matters a lot. You really do have to presentation matters a lot. You really do have to put your best foot forward in order to make sure that the right opportunities are coming for you. At the same time, the more honest you are in it also, the more other people are going to buy into what you're saying. I think a lot of times you know you get up on like stage or you walk into an interview or something and you kind of feel the need to like come across as your best self. But at one point I kind of just ended up realizing it's okay to to get up there and look messy in a way, because people will relate to you a lot exactly.
Speaker 2:It's so much more authentic. People will resonate with what you're saying. So much more as a result, and as soon as I kind of just ended up realizing, hey, every time I go up on stage, it's okay if I flub because I'm human and and people are going to only love me more because of that, you know, once I started kind of like training myself to think that way, being able to go up on stage and speak in front of you know, an audience of people, even though I kind of blacked out and don't remember what I was saying like I know that I did well, because I know that I was myself.
Speaker 1:Do you enjoy? It?
Speaker 2:I do, I do actually.
Speaker 1:That's probably one of my favorite things. If you strap everything away from me as a CEO and you only give me one task, it'd be either sales or public speaking.
Speaker 1:Like I just love those pieces. And it sounds like you know, in the early years for you, some of the we both had to combat some of the same struggles Like for me. I worked in the mental health field for 10 years before I got into entrepreneurship and it was like you know, that's an older industry where typically, like, the people at the top are in their 40s, 50s, things like that. So, coming in as a young 20, something like one of the first things I did is I went out and bought a crap ton of suits and I was like I'm going to make sure I look the part and I realized that at least got me into the door where people would allow me to open up my mouth and be like, oh, he's just some young punk, like we don't need to listen to him. Like, oh, he's just some young punk Like we don't need to listen to him.
Speaker 1:Like, well, no, the presentation first spoke and then, once I got in there, I was well-versed and educated on the things I need to be talking about. So once I was able to open up my mouth, they were like okay, young kid, does Nobody's talking about. Do you see any struggles with that for you as a young founder, where sometimes people are looking at you like, oh, you're too young to be able to know like the issues that our company would have. We've been in business 150 years. How are you going to come in and solve this?
Speaker 2:It does happen and it's like it's funny, because for me, my advantage in this industry comes from my close proximity to the generation that is entering the workforce, because it helps me help the employers better understand how to engage that workforce and it also helps me.
Speaker 1:I see it from their perspective.
Speaker 2:Right, and it also helps me better engage the you know, anyone that's Gen Z, like myself, like I can kind of coach them through. No, this is what you need to be thinking of if you're going to work there, you know.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:But at the same time, you know the disadvantage is there are plenty of times when I'm almost. Sometimes I feel like I'm not entirely taken seriously. People think that it's a side hustle. They think it's an experiment for me because I'm so young. I guess, but I think that it's the kind of thing where, yeah, that happens, but ultimately I know why. At least, since we're talking about age, I at least know why my age gives me an advantage, so why would I care?
Speaker 2:You know it's the kind of thing where, like, yes, they can come in with that assumption but I can also help them unlearn that assumption and in doing so also kind of show how a lot of people of my generation really are well suited for entrepreneurship, like we very much are minded for that kind of stuff. So like helping, helping explain why some you know the little guys should be able to have a shot in something like this. It's not, it's not something I'm necessarily. That's not a challenge I'm afraid of. The. The bigger struggle for me actually ends up being my own imposter syndrome when other people are telling me oh, I'm not sure if you can do this.
Speaker 2:It actually just makes me say, oh well, let me prove how I can. But as soon as I'm in my own head and I'm telling myself you can't do this, that's when I break down. It's the imposter syndrome and it's it's whether I let that get to me or not, whether I let that narrative become the one I'm telling myself or not is the game changer oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:every entrepreneur experience that where, like their, their mom I'm not sure if you've experienced this yet, but like there are moments where it's like holy crap, payrolls in three days and don't know, the bank account's looking a little funny. How am I going to figure this out? Okay, well, my salary's off to the side for this week. How am I going to get these people, like I've literally had to go through and sell stuff before to make payroll before.
Speaker 1:And then you sit back and you're looking like man, am I cut out for this? Like am I the right guy for the job here? And then realize that the most successful ones have all been through those painstakes. Like we've all had those moments where it's like you're second guessing yourself. You're wondering, like, did you set yourself up for failure?
Speaker 1:And the main thing I see between successful entrepreneurs is just the consistency. Like, even through those hard times, you just keep fighting through it. You figure out a way Like now I have things in place where, like, if something like that does happen like let's take payroll, for instance, now I got a hundred thousand dollars worth of lines of credit that I can tap into at any given time. So it's, I only use those if I absolutely have to. But it's not like back in the day where I had to go off and sell a camera in order to make payroll. It's like, okay, I got this to lean on because I know next week this client's gonna be paying and I can pay this line of credit off back at that time.
Speaker 1:Man, you're giving some good insights and I appreciate this perspective, because oftentimes I don't get to sit here with someone your age that started at this level. Let me ask you this when do you see this in five years? Do you see yourself still being the one who's running this organization? Would you more likely to hand this off? Share off some of the company? Is there something else that you're looking for in the future where you're like, hey, this is just a step in? So my first business was rich in bubble soccer. You put on those huge bubble suits and play full contact soccer. I knew that wasn't going to be like the thing that I was going to be doing and be on fortune magazine for bubble soccer. I just knew that business was going to open up a lot of doors because it got us in front of party at the flying squirrels.
Speaker 1:It got us in front of these wealthy families that wanted a birthday party for their kid. Then I could talk to the mom and dad and be like oh, what do you do for a living? Oh, I actually have this business off to the side as well too. Let me talk to you about that. So where do you see yourself being as an entrepreneur in the next five years?
Speaker 2:I feel like five years and 10 years are two different stories, because five years I can still see this business being how can I put this? I am a serial entrepreneur through and through. I know that eventually, when I step away from this, I know that I will just start the next thing that I'm passionate about, because ultimately, I like solving problems that do not have current solutions. That's just, that's my thing, I like. I like building things from scratch. So once the company grows to the point where I guess the role of CEO changes, you know like, you get to a certain stage where, like early stage CEO versus launch stage versus growth and anything past growth stage CEO completely different responsibilities, I think. If it gets to the point which hopefully it gets to the point where we either have an exit or we get to the point where it's growing beyond the scrappy capabilities that I like, that's when I would probably hand off the reins.
Speaker 2:Whether that happens in five years or 10 years, I'm not really sure, which is why I'm saying I could see it not happening in five, but then I could see it definitely happening within 10. But either way, I know that basically, I want to build the foundations of this business so that, with or without me, it is going to thrive and, more importantly, it's going to stick to the core mission, because I don't want to see this turn into a business that I'm not going to be to the core mission. Because I don't want to see this turn into a business that I'm not going to be very proud of. Like, the whole business was based on making hiring more human and work more equitable and making sure that we're opening more doors to opportunities based on merit and potential rather than background and credentials.
Speaker 2:As soon as, like I don't ever want to see this business ever diverge from that core mission in any way, shape or form, even if I'm not running it, I will make sure I'm somewhere on the board so that I can stop that from happening. But as soon as it gets to the point where it's grown beyond, as it gets to the point where it's grown beyond, um, beyond, I guess, the more entrepreneurial aspect of the role, once it gets corporate once it gets corporate, I I don't think I want to work corporate again yeah, yeah, you don't.
Speaker 1:You don't want to be in the 20th floor looking out the window of the corner office I can't I.
Speaker 2:I like it when it's scrappy and small. I just do it has that much more meaning to me.
Speaker 1:Yep, yeah, no, completely get that. Last question I have for you why do you think is this model completely unique across the globe? Is there something similar to this and why do you think something like this hasn't been created? Because when I heard you speak on stage, my first thought was man, this is something like Meta or Google or somebody. A large corporation would buy this business because of the value that you're bringing to it. Why has this not existed before?
Speaker 2:It's not that nobody's tried to do this before. There's a lot of solutions that are similar. This one is unique in its own way, but ultimately it's that they weren't solving the problem the right way. There's a lot of solutions that do help with um, helping early career uh, students get experience and opportunities and like job simulations right then. There's also a lot of like I don't know tests that employers can give um, like behavioral ones or or cognitive tests and there's.
Speaker 2:I don't know there's a lot of other staffing solutions out there, but in terms of how we kind of bridge that gap, um, and make it this transparent and kind of like you know, our whole thing is like taking guesswork out of hiring. That kind of proposition is a little bit newer.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And our position, in that sense, is very unique. I honestly think that the reason why it just hasn't existed is because, like up until now, the need wasn't great enough. But now we're living in you know, know, an age where, like the hiring landscape is completely shifting now yeah um ai is completely changing the the market. It's the first time that we have five generations in the workplace at once that do not know how to communicate with each other didn't think about that and exactly.
Speaker 2:And the new generation that's entering the workforce. A lot of people just don't understand.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's like the need has been there, but it hasn't been as prevalent as it is now. So you know, we jumped on the opportunity because we knew someone needed to fix it, from a perspective that understands how difficult it is, both as an entrepreneur and as an early career candidate, which is kind of where we come in. But ultimately it really is, if you think about it, a fairly simple solution, because sometimes the most complex problems really do need the simplest solutions to be able to implement. So I'm not going to sit here and say we're the only ones in the world that can do this, because I know that other businesses are going to start popping up that try to do something similar. But what I can promise is that we're going to be doing it the best. We're going to do what we do the best.
Speaker 1:So, with that thought process in mind, you've built it from the ground up. At this point, knowing that there are other companies that are going to be formulating something similar, is it now important for you to get access to capital so that you can move this along at a faster pace? Are you happy with the pace that things are growing right?
Speaker 2:now I do want things to move faster, but that's literally just because I'm an entrepreneur who never thinks fast is fast enough?
Speaker 1:No, it's never fast enough.
Speaker 2:Right. So, yes, capital helps, but ultimately, like you know, the answer to that question and the answer to moving fast isn't necessarily capital. For us it's still just going to be outcomes. Like, again, I've been bootstrapping so far, I'm proud to say it. That doesn't mean I will be bootstrapping forever, it doesn't mean I won't be. Ultimately, for me, speed is just going to be like how quickly can we get this model adopted and normalized across hiring, the hiring space in in various industries? Because the more we can normalize it among them, it doesn't matter. You know how much capital I have to develop this out, you know, as long as we get it out there to the right people yeah.
Speaker 2:I know that the you know the effect will be greater than if I were trying to perfect everything and build out the perfect platform and then release it.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely Good stuff. I'm absolutely enamored with your business model. I truly feel that this is genius and that there are so many businesses that can utilize this. If people want to get in touch with you, they want to learn more about the services. They want to hire you guys. Where do they go to find more information on you?
Speaker 2:They can go to our website, which is otterwiseio spell that out for us o-t-t-e-r-w-i-s-e. So, otter like the animal, wise like the brain, dot io perfect they can also email me, which is just alia at otterwiseio. It's also on the website, because sometimes alia is hard to spell yeah, perfect, perfect, good stuff. We'll appreciate you being here today thank you so much for having me.
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