How A Restaurateur Turned A $10K Bet Into An Outdoor Hospitality Venture

You don’t need a flight to feel far away. In our conversation with Kevin Wilson, we explore how a former sushi chef and restaurant owner is building Camp Yellow Cardinal, a 24.5-acre glamping retreat designed for couples who crave nature without sacrificing comfort. The vision is crisp: geodesic domes spaced for true privacy, king beds, hot tubs on every deck, an “invisible service” model that removes friction, and a ridge-top barrel sauna with a glass end facing the trees. It’s hospitality that feels intentional, not improvised.

Kevin walks us through the long road here—risking $10,000 at 24 to co-found Sticky To Go-Go, learning the gritty parts of operations, and later stepping into a corporate role to lead community, brand, and a pandemic webinar engine that served 16,000 people. Those lessons now power a data-informed hospitality plan: land-first economics, a location within 90 minutes of major Virginia markets, pricing that targets accessibility without losing the premium feel, and design choices that favor serenity over squeezing in more units. He breaks down realistic revenue targets, lean operations, and how tech plus thoughtful touchpoints can make service feel human and hands-off at the same time.

But the heart of this episode sits beyond spreadsheets. We dig into why couples need time and space to reconnect, how the outdoors can reset a restless mind, and why “work-life balance” is less useful than a clear set of values. Kevin shares the simple rituals he won’t compromise on—breakfast with his son, a date night scheduled every month—and how that mindset shapes the experience he’s crafting for guests. Expect practical detail for builders and entrepreneurs, plus vivid snapshots of what a weekend at Camp Yellow Cardinal will actually feel like: crackling fires, sunset decks, and stars you can almost touch.

If this sparks ideas—or wanderlust—follow Camp Yellow Cardinal on Instagram, join the newsletter at campyellowcardinal.com for first access to booking and discounts, and share this episode with a friend who needs a reset. Subscribe, leave a review, and tell us: what’s your ideal nature escape?

Chapters

• 0:00 Meet Kevin Wilson And His Vision
• 1:22 From Engineering Student To Sushi Entrepreneur
• 6:16 Owning Sticky To Go-Go And Hard Lessons
• 12:06 Education, Risk, And Early Startups
• 16:18 Shutting Down, Fatherhood, And A “Real Job”
• 19:27 Building Community At Dominion Payroll
• 24:05 Pandemic Pivots And Marketing Skills
• 28:02 Renovations, Rentals, And Real Estate Education
• 31:50 Finding Glamping: The Outdoors Without Sacrifice
• 36:18 Land Strategy And Location Math
• 40:28 Designing Privacy Over Packed Grids
• 42:45 Pricing, Amenities, And Guest Experience
• 45:04 Invisible Service And Smart Operations
• 47:09 Sauna On A Ridge And Sunset Decks
• 50:05 Regional Demand And Word Of Mouth Growth
• 53:28 Keeping It Human: Community, Couples, Connection
• 56:07 Work-Life Values Over Balance
• 1:01:12 Where To Follow Camp Yellow Cardinal

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:03

Welcome to the You Can't Afford Me Podcast. So we skip the fluff and dive straight into the ground. Real entrepreneur, real struggle, and the unfiltered journey behind today. Let's get into it.

SPEAKER_02: 0:18

Hey guys, thanks for joining us on another episode of the You Can't Afford Me Podcast. So today, this is a type of business that I've been intrigued about for a while. I'm not going to spoil it. I'm going to let our guest explain to you what he does. But today on the podcast, we have Kevin Wilson. Kevin, how are you doing, buddy?

SPEAKER_00: 0:38

I'm doing great. I'm really excited to be here and I appreciate you extending the invite. Absolutely, man.

SPEAKER_02: 0:42

So first give everybody a quick 30-second rundown of who you are and what you do.

SPEAKER_00: 0:46

Yeah, absolutely. Um so yeah, like you said, my name's Kevin Wilson. Um, I'm an entrepreneur in the experiential outdoor hospitality space. Uh that's a fancy way of saying that I am starting a fancy campground. Um but yeah, so we are um, you know, trying to build somewhere between uh a hospital and an old school campground, a hospital, a hotel and an old school campground. So luxury in the heart of the outdoors for the adventure curious. Nice, nice.

SPEAKER_02: 1:13

Okay, so let's start early on. Um prior to starting this model, like what was your main profession? What were you doing?

SPEAKER_00: 1:21

Sure. So my my career is is a winding road for sure. And I honestly I sort of chopped that up to some of my my success, or at least, you know, having an interesting story to share. Um, you know, I uh I came out of college. Well, actually, so I went off to university to study aerospace engineering. Oh, wow. Yeah. Um what school were you guys at? So I was at Georgia Tech for a year, rambling wreck, um, and decided that being about 800 miles from home on a campus with six guys for every girl was not really what my university experience was, was what I had in my head.

SPEAKER_02: 1:54

Mine was the opposite. I went the long one. It was like a five to one yeah, yeah ratio. I was like, this is my school.

SPEAKER_00: 1:59

Yeah, you know, and so I wish somebody had gotten in front of me when I was 17 and just sort of said, you need to think about all the attributes of what you're going to school for. Um, but really at the end of the day, I learned that engineering really wasn't for me. I have an analytical mind, but um not entirely. I'm also a very creative person. Um, so I bounced around, I did BCU, I studied abroad for a year, I came out with a degree in sociology. What do you do with that? You become a sushi chef, of course. Right? So the sushi wasn't out for people, dude. Yeah, exactly. You know, I mean it's it's a tale as all the time. Um, but I uh I was fortunate enough to um get in with the guys at Sticky Rice um early in them opening that restaurant row. And I sort of quickly became a sushi bar manager. Um, and then I had the opportunity to go into business with those guys. And at the age of 24, um, I opened Sticky to Go-Go um with um some partners from the the Sticky Rice family. Nice. Um, and so you know, we were there with about a thousand square feet on Main Street. I'm 24 years old. I'm basic I I joked that I was a a line cook in search of becoming a business owner.

SPEAKER_02: 3:03

Yeah. Um sticky rice used to be the spot. I remember my early 20s, we'd be dancing on top of the tables at like one like in the morning.

SPEAKER_00: 3:09

And it's it is not I I am too old for it now, but they are going strong. They just celebrated their 25th anniversary. I mean, in an industry that chews people out and spits them out, like absolutely you know, more businesses you can possibly be in. A hundred percent. Um, and I and I attribute my time there to a sense of of just sort of how I approach owning a business, solving problems, hiring and firing people, all this stuff. Like, I don't know. Anyone out there that is looking for hard workers, take a look at the service industry. It will find some great talent there that often goes undiscovered.

SPEAKER_02: 3:43

Wait, when did you learn to make sushi? Um, you know, again to study abroad or you study in the fan or something like that?

SPEAKER_00: 3:50

So I um it is the story of right place, right time. I um I had a muted job. I was back from um having studied abroad and and I studied in Amsterdam. All right. So if I um, you know, no, no sushi culinary skills coming out of that. I uh, you know, in my teens, I'd worked in a couple restaurants, but I needed a job. I just got an apartment, so I applied at every restaurant on Main Street. Um, and Sticky Rice happened to be the first one to call me back. I went in and talked with the owners, and um, I thought I'd be a bar back or a bus boy, you know, it's like, you know, and they're like, we've got, you know, a crappy shift. It's 8 a.m. to 11 a.m. But you'll be rolling, you know, a ton of sushi for some of our market orders and things like that, and we'll teach you how to do it. And so I, you know, was like, sure, you know, I'd, you know, I'll do this for six months, you know, get a paycheck, and then I'll figure out what I really want to do. And it just turned into this thing where I was good at it, I enjoyed it. Um, you know, that there's no industry like that where, you know, you become fast friends with everybody you work with, you know, everybody's, you know, hooking up and and there's you know, there's drinking and debauchery. And, you know, when you're 22 years old, there's there's just nothing like it, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 5:04

So you're just trying to pay your bills and get beer money at that age.

SPEAKER_00: 5:07

100%, you know. And and I think I I showed a little sign of being, you know, maybe it's slightly more responsible than the guy standing next to me. And so the owners there saw a little something in me and and sort of took a risk and said, let's we've been talking about doing a carry out concept. And this the storefront across the street from the restaurant had recently gone out of business. And they approached me and um and another woman and and we all worked it out and and you know, opened this thing. And over our 11-year history there, um, you know, we went from taking over all of the carry-out operation of sticky rice to having a state-of-the-art food truck that operated downtown. We had a catering business that was doing, you know, massive weddings, we were doing food festivals. Um, and you know, it was just this, you know, flying by the seat of our pants, inventing it as we go. Um, and I I like I said, you know, I started off as a guy who knew how to make pretty good food. And I'm pretty good with like interpersonal relationships, um, to figuring out, well, all right, how do taxes work? How does payroll work? How does accounting work? Um, you know, how do we raise money? How do, you know, you know, the thing that I'm I'm still working on is how do you fire people when they need to be fired? You know, that's a tough thing.

SPEAKER_02: 6:27

I'm getting better at it this year, but it's still everybody thinks like when Donald Trump had the apprentice and it was like you're fired. Everybody thought it was like cool, man. I want to be boss and say, there is not any.

SPEAKER_00: 6:38

No, I mean, you you on on a certain level, you know, you have to recognize that like, you know, we're all trying to put food on the table. You take that away from somebody, that's it's a big decision, you know. But at the end of the day, if you're building something you believe in and that's that's that's bigger than you are and bigger than an individual team contributor, you know, you got to make the right decision for the business. Absolutely. Um so yeah, I I I levered my time.

SPEAKER_02: 7:02

Wait, so they were opening up this side of the business because at this point you're in your early 20s. Yeah, you're just a little bit more responsible than the other guy. Right. And you know, um, and they start opening up that side of the business in terms of you like helping develop food trucks and and to go orders and all that stuff. Like, what was it like? Was it your hustle in your drive that they that you were coming to them and asking, like, hey, I want to get involved in this part of the business? Or then you're seeing something in you and saying, Hey, we want to give you a shot at this.

SPEAKER_00: 7:28

You know, good question. I and I I'd love to get inside their head and hear I that would be that would be informative for me to hear their answer. Um, but no, I think that they saw some hustle. Um, you know, I was always, you know, I remember from from those early days, I would come home from work and I I would my I my wheels would be spinning. I mean, where what if we moved the kitchen pass to this wall? What if we what if we what if we bought the house behind the restaurant and converted it into XYZ?

SPEAKER_02: 7:55

You know, I was the perfect employee that's thinking about things out outside of the wall.

SPEAKER_00: 7:58

And I just I'm not good at turning it off. Yeah, you know, and so I was always showing up uh, you know, 30 minutes early and being like, hey man, let me I had this idea. Or, you know, some a lot of it just translated into running the sushi bar better. You know, that was my little kingdom, but I'm not pretty I'm not particularly good at staying in my lane. Um here, you know, and and sometimes that can be you know annoying or pushy, but sometimes it's the best, it's the best kind of personality to surround yourself with. Absolutely. Um, and so you know, I was just sort of always trying to solve problems wherever I saw them. Um, you know, I think I think really at the end of the day, I got it more right than wrong, trying to trying to give my, you know, be a little humble in in all of this. Um but yeah, I think that really at the end of the day, they saw, hey, we get we could pick up a thousand square feet retail space across the street. Let's just see what happens. Like, we'll sign a three-year commercial lease. Like, you know, worst case scenario, Kevin completely fumbles and and we're renting this thing out and we have to find another tenant or something like that. Like, it's not gonna put us out of business, you know. And so, but the upside was huge, you know. Maybe maybe we end up in a position where we're looking at at a franchise of these things. And at the time, they were looking at expanding the sit-down concept to DC, Baltimore. Um, and so, you know, but there there is this sort of the the world is our oyster mentality of the time. Um, which, you know, which was great. I I I credit so much of how I sort of see the world and how I think about business to having that education. You can't get it with an MBA. You can't get it um in a textbook. Um, you know, it boots on the ground when you got to make payroll by Friday and the fryer stops working. Like, you solve those problems right dead or there, you know. I I owned another restaurant briefly um with my good friend uh Justin Adley um called the Cellar Door in that same time period. And you know, we You were still working full-time for state? Yep. So we so yeah, you know, I I had transitioned out of sticky rice proper, owned sticky to go-go, and it and then that was Oh wait, so you were owner in the sticky to go. I was, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 10:17

So how all right, so break that down. How do you go from being an employee to now getting ownership of the new model?

SPEAKER_00: 10:24

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um basically the guy, I mean, it was risk mitigation at the end of the day. The in the John and Jason, who owned Sticky Race, said, you know, hey, let's let's bring two partners into this, have them put, you know, I think it was$10,000 was the buy-in, which at$24 was more money than I already ever seen. Um and I was actually, I was racking my brain about this the other day. And like, I know that I borrowed$1,500 from my dad. Um, you know, shout out to a dad that's able to loan$1,500, but that still doesn't get us to the$10,000. And I think I maxed out a credit card. Um, I basically called, you know, USAA, I think, and said, Hey, can you bump my limit up to$10,000? And then I like, they're like, Yeah, we can we can maybe do that. And more shoes you know the phone. Yeah, and I and I was like, all right, guys, I need you to catch this right now because oh, this this is the most beer money I've ever seen.

SPEAKER_02: 11:15

Um, how old were you then? So I was 24. Man, that's a huge risk to take. Most most people in their 30s don't have that type of guts. Like, to do that in your early 20s and like really not knowing how that takes guts right there.

SPEAKER_00: 11:31

So I will tell you this. My my father gave me a piece of advice when I was talking to him about this, and I remember racking my grain, just like this is a monumental amount of money to me. Um, you know, on some ways you start to doubt yourself, and you're like, oh, I'm just a I'm just a guy who shows up and and cuts fish. You know, um, why what are they seeing me? You know, and so you get that imposter syndrome, all those things, and and I, you know, I'm I'm lucky to have a great relationship with my folks, and my dad and I, we sat down and and I was just like, what do I do here? I I not nothing has prepared me in my my long 24 years on this planet um to to deal with this, you know, um this decision. Um, and he looked at me and he said, Look, you're 24 years old. You are going to make and lose ten thousand dollars at pointing in times in your life. Do it now. While you still want our insurance, yeah, dude, you know. He was just like he just he broke it down in a way where he was like, Yeah, I get it. It's a big deal, and you don't want to go into it stupidly. Yeah. But he's like, you've never gone into anything stupidly. So you know, mix it up, get in there. Um, maybe, maybe this turns into the thing where you own 30 locations up and down the east coast in five years. You just don't know. Um that's a good day. Yeah, you know, and and it was great. It was just like, look, like, you know, you'll always have a roof over your head. Like, you know, we don't your mother and I don't want your Russian home, but like, you know, you'll figure it out. And and it was it was that faith that I would figure it out, and that really at the end of the day, you know, you take ten thousand dollars and you and you zoom out to you know your career, your lifespan. And yeah, it's 10 gen Gs ain't nothing to keep a use car. Yeah, the oh um, and the high right there, man. Exactly. Um, and and the upside was what the potential there was huge. And whether that was the upside in, you know, maybe this thing takes off, you know, maybe maybe it was the next red robin, you know, um, or um you learn a ton and and you realize what you want to do, what you don't want to do. Um, there's so much, you know, potential that is unique to business ownership that, like I said, you're not gonna get can't get some classroom.

SPEAKER_02: 13:52

Yeah, that that is my biggest piece of advice to those in their 20s is like dude, fail hard, fail fast. Like do it while you're young and like you don't have the responsibility of kids and a wife and a mortgage and all these other things. Like you can always go back and find another job. Like, that's a big thing to me about entrepreneurship. People like, you know, what if it fails? Well, number one, what if it works? Right. And number two, if it does fail, you're not unemployable, like you add a skill set, you can go out there and find something.

SPEAKER_00: 14:20

Well, and and so often, like your worst case scenario is everybody else's every day. Yeah, you know, it's it's this fails. So I dust up my resume and I go get a nine to five job. Um, not the yeah, not the worst thing. It's not, and and and not knocking the the no pursuit of a paycheck every two weeks. Like, um, but you know, when you have the opportunity to be your own boss, to set your own standards, to be creative about what is the type of work that I'm gonna do. Who do I hire to do the stuff that I don't want to touch anymore? Yeah. Um, that's that is a really empowered way of looking at how you spend your time on this earth, you know. Um, and it's not bore everybody, but it's it is it runs through my veins. Um, I've I've got a long um streak of just sort of entrepreneurial thinking. Um, the something that I I didn't even share, but the my first foray in the entrepreneurship, I'll try and keep this relatively short, but when I was 18 or 19, um good friend of mine, we started an online media company. This is like the heyday of my space, right? Like, and we were like, we're about the town. Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_02: 15:32

Um God, I hope he's doing right. Uh I actually looked him up, not to cut you all. Yeah, I'll looked him up. He took a photography like hardcore. Okay. And he's been a professional photographer for like the last 10 or 15 years. He's married, has a couple kids, and he has a pretty big following on Instagram too, but he just goes around the world taking photos. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00: 15:51

Yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, talk about like, you know, there's no end of the road, it's just pivots, you know. And I'll say, ooh. Um, so my my buddy Adam and I, we um had looked at at MySpace and success there. We knew a ton of creatives here in Richmond, and he had spent a bunch of time in LA, knew a bunch of actors, artists, sculptors out that way, museums. Um, and we were like, there's not really a platform where an artist could build a profile, sell their stuff, try and find, you know, a following outside of just like doing a gallery show. You know, at the time it's like our friends were doing stuff at the Anderson Gallery, BCU, you know. You maybe get 300 people through on a Friday night, but what if you get 300,000 people's eyes on it?

SPEAKER_02: 16:34

You know, it's a SoundCloud before SoundCloud.

SPEAKER_00: 16:36

Yeah. Um, and at mixed mixed media, uh, it was it was a neat idea. We hired an engineer, we built a website. We had, you know, we had a couple clients that we threw an art show in Richmond and one in um in LA. Um, we operated for one year and basically ran out of money. Um, didn't really know what we were doing. We were 18 years old, you know, um, knew it was a good idea, but just didn't have any of that experience behind us to say this is how you do a seed round. This is how you do it, this is how you get in front of anybody who could put meaningful money behind this project. And so, so after a year opening, operating, we we shut it down. We just didn't renew the LLC, um, didn't really make any money, didn't lose a ton of money. Um, and and basically we're just sort of like, well, that was the cheapest MBA that we're ever gonna get. You know, um, I'll never forget about six months after we we sort of abandoned that project. My buddy calls me up and he's he just starts reading from some magazine, like Fortune or something like that. And it is like a verbatim description of our company. And I'm like, what are you reading? Like, what is that? And he goes, Microsoft just invested$35 million in this art startup in Omaha, Nebraska, or something like that. And so, I mean, you know, trying to see the silver lining, we were at least on you're on the right track, you're on the right track. Yep. Um, had no idea how to get that idea in front of anybody with$35,000. Pull out the 35 million again in front of Bill Gates. Right. Um, but yeah, so that was, I mean, that was a kick in the pants, but also validating in the same thing.

SPEAKER_02: 18:17

Everything you've talked about in your story so far has been education, education, education. And I'm real big on like, you know, higher education ultimately changing. Like my kids are super young, so I got years before I think about college for them. But I'm like, I'm always thinking, like, I don't know if higher education is going to be in a place like what it is today, because number one, like the experience you get from things like this, you were getting paid education. Right. So I I'd rather get paid to learn than than pay someone else to learn something. But between, you know, becoming a a sushi chef to um within a year, like being able to be owner in another organization, like to go on and prior to that being able to do something in the marketing space, like, you know, you're learning all these things. I I tell people all the time, if I if I lost this all right now, am I sweating it because you're not starting from ground zero, you're starting with experience. Right. Like now you have much more knowledge than you previously did. So you're like, okay, well, here are all the mistakes I made before. I don't know to fast track this thing because I did all the dumb stuff earlier on in life.

SPEAKER_00: 19:21

You know, I I hear you, and and I think higher education, it's something that I am a huge fan of. But I I my approach is is particularly with that space, is education for education's sake. I was not the model student who went in and studied something because I knew that if I took these courses, I could be an investment banker. Yeah. My wife gives me a hard time constantly because she was like, I'm gonna study health sciences, I'm gonna take the cytotechnology track, and then I'm gonna get a job behind a microscope and I'm gonna be looking for cancer. And and at 18, she had mapped that out and and knew what her salary was gonna be. And my approach has always been like, it'll probably work out. Yep. I'll I'll learn something then here.

SPEAKER_02: 20:06

And now I'm a big proponent. If someone has a game plan like that, where they're like, I want to be a doctor, I want to be a lawyer, I want to do X1Z, boom. Yeah, college is probably a part of that that you need. But I feel the vast majority of students, number one, I wasn't fully educated on student loans. Right? That's no yeah. That's just like, oh yeah, you're gonna let me in school and I get to hang out with all these girls and go party. Yeah, I'll sign here on the that's what this contract says. Yeah, exactly. But you know, if you're just going to school and like trying to find yourself, like in my head, what I'm thinking with my kids is if they don't know what they want to do, I'll front the first two years of school for you. Get out there, learn who you want to meet people from all over the world. Like, that's ultimately the college experience. But after two years, if you don't know what you're doing, I'm gonna just keep writing these checks just for you. Yep. Party.

SPEAKER_00: 20:50

No, no. And I think that that I think really the idea that that our generation, the generation before was sort of sold is that there was this one size fit that's all go to college, you get a good job.

SPEAKER_03: 21:02

Yep.

SPEAKER_00: 21:03

And and we know that that's not the case anymore. And I think that increasingly folks will step in and out of different career paths, different education paths. Like people will, you know, maybe be an entrepreneur for for five years and sell it or pivot into something where they can go work and you know, not necessarily have to change the fryer oil at the end of the night. Um, and there's nothing wrong with that. And then, you know, the the lag of consistency is sort of the new norm. And so I, you know, I've I've got two boys and I and I look at them and I say, you know, if if the mold is right, go to school for it. Yeah, you know, um, follow your passion for sure, but you've got to sprinkle some rationality. And then and if you're coming to me and saying, hey, I want a$200,000 education to uh with basket weaving or whatever. It's not like, yeah, I'm just gonna make$40,000 a year. Um, just like, you know what, the math doesn't map on that, and let's let's figure out another route, you know. Um, I'll happily get you set up as an internship at the basket weaving factory.

SPEAKER_03: 22:07

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 22:07

Let's do that, you know, let's go explore these things. Um, and I I do think that the future really does belong to people who are allowing themselves to think outside of those sort of rigid structures and say, you know, I I one thing that I absolutely adore in Virginia is that you do your associates at any community college for ten thousand dollars. Yeah, you could be at UVA as a junior, guaranteed acceptance. Like that's that's bonkers. Yeah, you know, um the the opportunities of of you know shaving tremendous cost off um and positioning yourself to be, you know, that that A plus lawyer, doctor, what have you. Yeah, um, it's real, but you gotta you gotta think about it in ways that I think you sort of felt the same way. I really understand it. Being asked to sign contracts. And you know, you turn around and you're like, How much do I owe? Yep. Was this all worth it? Because I'm a sushi chef making, you know,$8.75 an hour right now, and you want me to pay you up back, you know, X number of dollars.

SPEAKER_02: 23:12

Um it can be wow. So where did you how did you end up at Dominion Payroll?

SPEAKER_00: 23:18

So I I sort of joke that um, you know, after 11 years in business for myself, um really what what I saw was sort of the ceiling of of what I was able to make. You know, I was like, look, my salary is never gonna get bigger than this without multiple locations. And at the time, there wasn't a lot of appetite for that expansion. And and there were just, you know, a handful of internal, you know, mechanisms going on where I basically said, you know, and also in my personal life, I met a wonderful woman, I became a dad, and the restaurant industry is not great for raising kids.

SPEAKER_01: 23:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 23:54

Um, and there's something that is, yeah, you know, it's nights and weekends when the rest of the world is relaxed, you are your busiest. You know, um, and there there's one thing that is just core to my being that I I will not compromise on, is I I will be a good dad. Um I won't, you know, bring somebody into this world and then ignore them for 18 years. Yeah, and that's what the restaurant industry sort of demands. Um and so, you know, I talked with with the guys at Sticky Rice, and we figured out a way to sort of fold the operation back in. It took about six months to um shut it down. Um, you know, I I'd be lying if I said that there weren't some mistakes that happened there and some people were pissed off at me. And and, you know, I uh you know, it's it's sort of comes to the territory of of shutting down business. Um, and so that that was a that was a rough period, but it was one where it it needed to happen. Um, I wasn't gonna be able to be present as an owner, and I wasn't gonna be present as a father. And so I was like, I'm just gonna do everything poorly in my life, if I stay on this path.

SPEAKER_02: 24:53

Um the fact that you took the moment to recognize that. Like a lot of people, I think they just get caught up in the hustle and bustle, and it's just like I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this. I always equate to Michael Jordan. To me, greatest basketball player, like short. Shitty dad. Yeah, you can't be the greatest on the basketball court and be the greatest dad and what something's gotta give. That's right. And to him and his life and the way things were structured, it was more important to be the greatest on the court than it was to be the greatest at all.

SPEAKER_00: 25:21

Yeah. No, and and you know, I there's there's a great quote, and I'm gonna bundle it here, but it's basically it's it's like exercise, sleep, family, friends, and career, maybe. And and he just goes, pick three, like that's what you got, you know, and it it's not pick three forever. But if you think of those tiles, yeah, you know, that's that's what you're gonna be able to do. And so, you know, if you're sitting there and you're like, man, I awful, want to spend more time with my friends, more time with my family, and I want to exercise more, you're probably gonna sleep less. Yep, you know, and it it it's a great way of just sort of simplifying, taking all the noise out of the equation and saying, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 25:59

That's really good. I like that.

SPEAKER_00: 26:00

Yeah, it's just it's it's it's a good way of cutting through the BS. Yeah. Um But yeah, so you know, looking at at wine and now sticky to go-go, um I I rolled it back into sticky rice proper, did everything that I could to leave on good terms and and just make sure that everybody was sort of happy with with the end of the road. Um, but at the time I was I was courting what I I was calling, you know, finding a real job. No, no, I'm at the time. And I had met um Dave Gallagher, the the CEO of Dominion Payroll through some stuff at that chamber RBA. Um, and we had connected on a couple things and I had a mutual friend sort of reintroduce us, and I was aware that he was looking to fill a pretty unique role. Um, he was calling his director of community engagement. And it sat somewhere between sort of internal affairs of employee engagement, not full on HR. It sat sort of in marketing with you know, brand building and corporate philanthropy and that sort of thing. And it sort of touched on sales when let's build a great brand reputation, let's be out there, you know, working, events, exactly. Um, they had just built this beautiful new building. They had you know 60,000 square feet of office space and they had dedicated about 2,000 square feet to what they called their their community room. Beautiful space.

SPEAKER_02: 27:24

Um it's an awesome facility if you haven't gotten to check it out.

SPEAKER_00: 27:28

Yeah, yeah, highly recommend. And they're they're you know, shout out to the Dominion Payroll team. I mean, they they do a great job of just engaging with the world, bringing people into their space. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 27:37

So that's a they're our payroll company shout out Sky.

SPEAKER_00: 27:41

There it is. Um but yeah, so so Dave and I, we met a couple times. We had like Arden um shared a beer, and and I was never more convinced that I was the right guy for this job, you know, and so I I pitched him a couple different ways. He was sort of dragging his feet. Um and I know that he was he was going to hungry for like two or three weeks at the end of the summer of 2017. And I knew that I basically, if I didn't get a decision out of him, he was gonna, you know, be gone at a win. Um and so I I eventually was just sort of like, I know he's leaving in like three days. And I just like plubbed up my courage and I sent this sort of like ultimatum email of just like, you gotta make a decision or you're gonna lose me, you know. Uh uh. Which I had no business being like that, that bold or whatever. But you had guts to retire, but guts that I don't even recognize. I don't know that I have these guts, to be totally fair. But I uh you know, I sort of threw that out there and he was like, he took it all sort of in jest, and and and called me up. I mean, probably 20 minutes after I sent that email and said, come into the office tomorrow for lunch and let's talk. And famously, um, you know, we we talked in his office for a bit. There was like a company lunch that I was gonna join everybody for. Uh, but before we did that, he was like, Look, I'm gonna offer you the job. And he had this blank piece of paper and he like sort of slid it across the pay and the table. And he goes, That's your job description, dude. So if that scares you, maybe this isn't the job for you. And I was like, I'm good, let us do this thing. And I was really fortunate that for the five years that I was with the company, I had a long leash, I had a budget, I had the ability to take it in all sorts of weird directions. Um, you know, we did and and and I got to touch every part of the company, which was rad, you know, and we were expanding, you know, we had offices in in Charlotte, um, Tampa. Gosh, I'm gonna I'm gonna forget some of these now in a minute. Um, Nashville, of course. Um, and we expanded to like Lexington. Um, you know, we just we're a growing company. There's still you know a tremendously fast growing company. Um, and so our ability to do really great philanthropic work is. In the community to sort of filter that through a way where we could authentically tell our story. Like, there are plenty of companies that get it wrong where that it's like Bank of America supports pride or something like that. And it's like, this is just a way for you guys to get your name on something. Absolutely. And so my job was to really like figure out what are the causes that are near and dear to our staff, what what are the causes that do have a business, you know, benefit to, but how do we engage with them in a way that is that is authentic and purposeful and actually looks to do the most good. Um, and so I'm I'm incredibly proud of my time there. Um, I think that we did, you know, a ton of great work. It it's it's been a minute since I've reflected on some of those stats. I used to be able to rattle off like, you know, the number of dollars and volunteer hours and immunity organizations that we touched, but it was it was significant in that we're a firm of you know maybe 250 people that was doing the work of a 600-person firm, you know. Um so um that that was back to that sort of education element. You know, I had that blank job description. And so I inserted myself into all sorts of things. And um, you know, I was sitting in on sales meetings and and learning how to build a sales organization. I was, you know, connecting with the HR department and learning, you know, how do you um you know, how do you run an organization effectively? You know, when you when you get above the 10, 11 people that you can all huddle into a single room and feed with one pizza, yeah. Like, you know, how you how do you effectively do that? And so I I was sort of, you know, it wasn't necessarily a direct strategy, but I was like, let me absorb as much as I can from the folks. And until they tell me to stop showing up and you know, stop coming through Pythur, um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna absorb as much as I can.

SPEAKER_02: 31:54

Did you ask the question why a lot when you were a kid?

SPEAKER_00: 31:56

I'm sure I did, yes.

SPEAKER_02: 31:58

So, Mike, you have a your personality, like you're very curious about things 100%. You're willing to jump in and like, if somebody slaps your hand and says, No, you're going too far, like, okay, I got you. But until you slap my hand, like, I'm gonna keep pressing, I'm gonna keep learning. Talk about that transition from so you were an entrepreneur for 11 years before you come to Dominion payroll to me, and I have thought about this before, because you know, we have days as entrepreneurs are like, no, if I keep doing this, like maybe turn around and sell the business or not shut it down, whatever the case is. Yeah. Um, and I've often had those thoughts of like, man, what would it be like for me going back and working full time for another company? And I sit on two sides of it. One, I'm like, I'm gonna have a lot less stress in my life. Yeah, like I'm just able to clock in, clock out, get a paycheck. But the other part of me is like, would I be a good employee at this point? Because I know I'm a hustler and I'm curious like you. I'll I'll get in, I'll get my hands dirty. Yeah. Um, what was that transition like for you? Because I think for a lot of people, going from being your own boss to now having a boss, that could be uh a tough transition.

SPEAKER_00: 33:00

I and and I and you are you're right to point that out. And I was I was a little nervous about it. I was like, I might be the worst employee of the art. Yeah, that is that's a very real possibility. I will say that I was at sort of a low point in my career coming into that where you know, I had I had had these high hopes for sticky to go go, where I was like, this, this is this is my million-dollar ticket, you know, we're gonna have locations all over the place, and and you know, I had big dreams. Um, and and it just the the momentum really wasn't there for that. Um so coming into an organization where somebody else signed the paychecks, somebody else, you know, unlocked the door. Um, I, you know, and also coming out of an industry where I was used to working 60 hour weeks, yeah, minimum. Um when I was working 39 hours and they were like, you should get out of here, man.

SPEAKER_02: 33:52

Like, man, it's a part-time job.

SPEAKER_00: 33:54

I guess it was phenomenal. I will never ever forget this. So I joined in July 2017, and I think the the first it was it was October, and somebody said to me on a Friday, hey, enjoy the long weekend. And I was like, What are you talking about? And they were like, Oh, it's it's Columbus Day. And I was like, What? That's not a real holiday. People think all for Columbia. Yeah, what are you talking about? And they're like, Yeah, we're closed. And I was like, You are kidding me. I get and and I seriously, this is how little I knew about like having a quote unquote real job. I was like, So do we get paid the same? And they were like, Yeah, dude. You know, and I mean, I I will own my ignorance on some of those things where I was just like, okay, fantastic.

SPEAKER_02: 34:39

My team was trying to get me on that when we're doing the employee handbook. They the two execs I had on my team at the time. Yeah, they literally put in every bank holiday there. I was like, bro, we're a media company. We ain't shutting down for President's Day, right? Like, yo, bringing your ass to get that damn. Yeah, all right. Find me a real holiday, we'll acknowledge it. Thanksgiving, Christmas. Yeah. I'm even on Martin Luther King Day. Most of the time, I'm the one black dude working in a pocket. But I come to it's a bad luck, and nobody else is showing up.

SPEAKER_00: 35:08

Uh, you know, and I'll tell you a funny thing. Um, so that was that was that first like three-day weekend that I was just like, this is this is amazing. I I'm I've won the lottery on this. Um, so just a little known story that two owners of Dominion Payroll at the time were looking into opening. Um, at that point it wasn't named. Little, little, I'm gonna give myself a little credit here. I came up with the name of Tang and Biscuit, the shuffleboard operation. The bit was soon to come to life. But Dave, knowing my nighttime in the service industry, um, he called me up after I found out I had a three-day weekend and said, Hey, can you meet me in Brooklyn? Um, I want you to take a look at this shuffleboard bar, and I've got a new business idea and I want to run it by it. Um, and so I was like, Yeah, I guess so. You know, like um they got on a train and went to Brooklyn and checked out this very cool um shuffleboard bar up there. And and I spent a little bit of time in my first, you know, year at Dominion Payroll doing some market research and and helping them uh sort of get that idea off the ground.

SPEAKER_02: 36:16

I didn't know that was from the founders of Dominion.

SPEAKER_00: 36:19

They had some other investors, um, but yeah, it was um I'm learning the more I scale up, big money starts to turn into quiet money.

SPEAKER_02: 36:27

Yeah, a lot of these guys don't want people to know that they have their hand in these shore eggs.

SPEAKER_00: 36:31

Yeah, I I've definitely learned that um, you know, with with folks, you know, you you see you see the tip of that iceberg where they're very successful, and then somewhere behind them is like, you know, real estate holdings and and things like that that they don't talk about. And that's the bulk of the wealth building and the stability of their operation. Um something to aspire towards. Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 36:52

So what was the talk to me about the transition because believing Dominion Payroll was that what led you to your current venture?

SPEAKER_00: 37:00

So I um yeah, the the pandemic was, you know, a a shake off. Um, you know, to say the least. We all honored a lot, don't know for sure. I uh, you know, my job at Dominion Payroll was to to interface with the community. And, you know, for two years there, I couldn't shake a hand. Yeah. You know, uh, so I out of fear for my job, you know, I and and a small team there, um we uh we spun up a webinar series that explained, you know, changes to the law, you know, all this money coming out of the federal government, best practices for like how to not fire your staff in the middle of a pandemic, you know. I get those newsletters every week. Yeah. Um, and and that that was tremendous. That was really cool bit of work where I do remember some of those stats. Like in in one year, we did over 275 webinar episodes and touched over 16,000 people. Um, and that is from a company who did not have a presence doing any of this stuff. Um, and so that that was something that I was really proud of. But as our time with that sort of wound down, I I just sort of stopped feeling connected to the work. You know, it was the the world had sort of changed and my role, I felt that I had accomplished a ton, was really proud of that, and and felt that there was an opportunity for me to sort of take my experience and go see what else is out there. Um, I was also getting really curious about sort of what you might call a traditional marketing. And spent a lot of time doing this brand development, corporate philanthropy, um, really, you know, sort of uh, you know, honed my experience there, but it was just sort of like, and I I've done work with, I've built websites, I've managed social media campaigns, but I've never done it as an official job title. Uh so I bounced around a little bit. Um, I I worked for a dental company, I was their director of marketing for a year. Um, I I worked in sales for another small uh marketing firm in the area. Um, again, more of a get paid to get educated, yep, um, kind of thing. And and in the last year and a half, you know, now to sort of bring us into to present day, um, you know, my my wife and I, um, we we are are the rare couple. We discovered this early in our relationship, that we can we can move a couch without getting mad at each other. True. And at least um, and so we have increasingly bit off more and more. Um, you know, we bought a house in 2015 and basically renovated it room to room by ourselves. Um, you know, we took our kitchen down to the studs. Man, your marriage is strong, right?

SPEAKER_02: 39:47

I think me and my wife could not get through, we couldn't get through painting the kitchen cabinet going through the whole house.

SPEAKER_00: 39:54

Um, I will tell you, the first year that we were married, um, I opened a second restaurant. We got married, we had our second son, um, and we looked at each other. I remember like that uh Christmas New Year's, and we just looked at each other and we're like, if we just survive this year and still want to be around each other, I think we're gold. Yep. Um, I mean, the amount of stress that we like front loaded, you know, um, you know, now, now, you know, our hair could be on fire. And we're just like, how's your weekend looking? You know? Um, but uh, I say all of that because um, you know, increasingly we were like, man, we work well together, we enjoy this hands-on stuff. Um, and so towards the end of my time at Dominion Payroll, we actually we invested in a hundred-year-old house in Petersburg and renovated it ourselves. Um and we're sort of like, this, this is, you know, this amazing property. It's this beautiful old house. And we were like, you know, really interested in sort of honoring this hundred-year-old legacy and not just like going in with with gray paint and new fixtures and being like, great, let's rent this thing, but actually, you know, preserving, you know, what could be preserved of this old house. Uh, and that was an amazing project that that we really enjoyed, and we were like, gosh, like maybe there's there's something in this world of whether it's it's hospitality or or owning an Airbnb, or just sort of what does that look like?

SPEAKER_02: 41:24

And and I gotta ask you, are you guys still had the property in Peacebury?

SPEAKER_00: 41:27

You rent that out or me do. Yeah, we have two great tenants there. They just signed on for a second year um lease. Um, so I feel like we're we're treating them well, they're treating us well. Everything's going pretty good. Perfect. Uh yeah. Um, but they you know, talking again about what an education experience of of purchasing a property that you're not going to live in, and you know, some of the, you know, you touch on zoning and and some of those things. Um and and we've managed to make it work, and we're we're like, oh gosh, this this is a pretty cool opportunity, perhaps, for us to sort of accelerate our wealth building and get to a place where it neither of us want to quit working ever. But it would be phenomenal if we were work optional. Yeah. You know, we have to. Yeah. And and how great would it be if we could be like, you know what, I'm gonna spend six months doing, you know, whatever job makes me satisfies my heart. Yep. Um, and uh maybe I make twenty thousand dollars to do that, you know, like being in a a place where you can do that is is hugely um, you know, it's uh just a bit of gold of ours. Um, so you know, we we started looking around at maybe buying another property and we just we weren't finding the right stuff and interest rates are doing what they're doing, and you know, just it it was one of those things where we just weren't finding the right thing and we kept bouncing ideas. We're like, well, we know we want to be in the real estate space. What does that look like? And and Airbnb has always been sort of attractive, you know. You're you you're you can't go on YouTube without like well, somebody being like, I made$100,000 a month, Airbnb, and yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 43:04

Yeah, and you're like, well, all I do is come in and change the sheets.

SPEAKER_00: 43:06

Yeah, you know, like, well, that sounds great, you know, and then uh maybe it's too good to be true, but um so um, you know, we really just walking the dog every night, we started bouncing ideas off of each other, and we came to this idea of a hospitality business that would be Airbnb be adjacent. Uh, and this idea of glamping, you know. I I grew up, I stayed in Boy Scouts until I was 17 years old because I got to go camping once a month. Yeah, I was like, I love this, you know. One weekend out of every month, I'm out in the woods, and I'll tell you, I am comfortable with, you know, a sleeping bag and a rock for a pillow. God bless you, I can't do it. My wife thinks that a holiday inn is about as close to camping as she what's he got?

SPEAKER_02: 43:52

Well, we with we me and my wife, when we were engaged, we went camping with a group of friends. Worst experience to you. Yeah, like we ended up uh everybody was it was freezing at night. It's crazy when you're camping, like it could be 85, 90 degrees during time, it's like freezing at night. So we I had the brand idea. I was like, all right, we're gonna get in my car, we're gonna put the back seats down, we're gonna lay a customer, I'm gonna let the car run for like 30 or 40 minutes. Like, we'll be nice and toasty while everybody else is freezing. We woke up that morning and we were like, this is the last time I do this. Ever again. We thought this would be nice and romantic.

SPEAKER_00: 44:24

Nah, nah. So that that speaks exactly to how we settled on our business model. We just already came at it from different angles, right? Um, but basically the idea being that there are a ton of people who aspirationally want to be in the great outdoors. Yeah. And my my wife will go on a 10-mile hike at the drop of the hat. Yeah, you know, that's fine. But she wants a hot shower and a comfortable bed at the end of the day. Absolutely. And and not to give ourselves like like too much credit where it isn't due, but we we had we weren't super familiar with the concept of glamping. We sort of invented it and then realized, oh, wait, there's this whole like$11 billion industry called glamping. Um, okay, we'll we won't take credit for all of it. Um but um yeah, so we we slowly just sort of like came in on this idea of what if we could build accommodations on on raw land that people would would want to come to, but it'd be big enough that you would have the privacy of the great outdoors, you'd have these Instagrammable moments of being out there and um, you know, give folks the opportunity to make a fire, you know, for you know, maybe the first time in their lives. So they you know, do something so primitive and elemental. Um, there's something really cool that happens when somebody builds oh yeah, heat for the first time. Um and so, you know, that that was sort of where we had like sketched it out in our conversations. And I I said to Laura, um, I was like, give me a couple weeks. I'm gonna write a business plan. I'll I'll come up with some numbers and and I'll present it to you almost like I'm I'm pitching you. And I want you to be the most critical um, you know, person that you can be. Like you, you don't want to part with a dollar for this idea. Um, and let's see if if you're in, let's take it to the next step and figure out like how do we buy land? How do we eat, how do we do any of this? Yep. Uh, and so I spent some time. Um, I I would be remiss not to give a shout out to the uh Small Business Development Center. Um, they're through the SBA and just a really cool resource. I connected with some of their advisors and just they were just a great sounding board to bounce ideas off of and say, hey, I'm thinking about, you know, I mean, some of it is just like structurally, what do I need in a business plan? You know, it's been years since I've made one and I want this to be good. And I I I had this sense that I was on to a cool idea that I really wanted to, I wanted to do this. Yeah, um, and I and I wanted to quit my job and I wanted to, you know, go and and you know, be an entrepreneur again. Um, and so, you know, that that was really like the the focusing of the idea where you know we took, you know, what was maybe 25%, took it to like 85% of what is this gonna look like?

SPEAKER_02: 47:16

Um, how long was that period from conception to hey, we haven't business plan?

SPEAKER_00: 47:22

Um, so I would say going back to like November, gosh, was this 23 through to like April 2024 was that that rough clay moment and slowly molding it. And by around April, we were like, okay, like this is this is real deal. Um, you know, let's let's you know, we had these sessions where I was just like, let's break the model. Like another pandemic hits, or you know, we're we're too far from anything and nobody wants to come. Like we can only get 30% occupancy, or you know, just like let's throw everything at this. And if if we can't, if we can break it, then let's walk away. Like, you know, we we just you know I love the way your mind thinks it was just like it feels you know, there's there's a different um kind of risk. You're 24, you got nothing.

SPEAKER_02: 48:19

Um, they can take everything from me, and and they're they're walking away with why's there, it's as men, we could sleep in a cardboard box and true, eat pizza every day and we're we're good. Yeah, it's not until we have women in our lives and children that we're like, okay, I gotta give them something a little bit better.

SPEAKER_00: 48:35

That's right. Yeah. And and trying to figure out, like, you know, how I can't just roll the dice and and be like, yeah, it'll probably be fine, you know. Um, I I don't want to have that conversation with my 14-year-old. Like, well, some guys from the bank are gonna be taking our house today. Um, and so, you know, it's it's in that interest of of just making making smart risks, but being comfortable with what those risks entail, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 49:01

So talk to us with that business model. Please tell me you've heard of Cody Sanchez before. 100%. Okay. Because everything you're preaching on with this model is like, I heard her say this, and I'm like, dude, like I gotta get in on this. And I think I'm not sure if you've thought about this, but I know one layer above that. Uh, well, she just talked about campgrounds, not even glanthing. Yeah. So you've taken it to another level there. But she said once you own that much property and you have a business model like this, like if you add something like goats to the mix, yeah, then now you get all this other money from the government because now you're dealing with livestock. Plus, the goats are gonna eat up the grass and stuff like that. So you don't have to worry about sending somebody out there to cut the grass all the time. And the goats are gonna have babies and they produce milk, and there's this whole another strew of income that you can get from clamping and also having livestock there. With with that, what where do you kind of see this going in terms of because now I think people are at a point where it's like, yeah, I do want my space. Like, I'm a city kid through and through. Like, yeah, me and my wife bought our last house. One question she specifically said to our realtor is, hey, if there's not a target in the Chick-fil-A within 10 minutes, we're not buying this house. So, like, we have to be in trace into the city, but during COVID, you know, it kind of got us used to the idea of like, you know, it's okay to breathe a little bit. We don't have to go with this fast chore. I don't need to be around people nonstop. Like, I'm an extrovert to the extrovert's degree, right? But as I gotten older, I really do enjoy my alone time. Like first thing in the morning, going to the gym and have my headphones on, and I'm not looking at emails, nobody's calling me at 6 a.m. Yeah, like having that time to myself is like it's gotten better and better as I've age. For you, if someone's hearing this and they're like, Man, I've had that thought, or I've heard Kobe Sanchez, and I don't know how to actually put this together. Talk to us about the numbers. What could this thing grow to? Like, how much money, how many acres do you have? Yeah, how much money per year would this model could somebody make?

SPEAKER_00: 50:57

Sure. So um you you the biggest asset that this thing sits on is is the land underneath all of it. Um and the you know, I have heard of plenty of people who are out there spending, you know, five million dollars on land to put a$300,000 operation on something. Um that to me is really unbalanced, you know. And and you know, if you if you think that you know you can put a Texaco um on that land in 10 years, maybe that's the smartest investment ever. Really. But that's I I like the hospitality business. I don't I I have exit fantasies in my mind, but like uh I want to run this business. You know, that that's core to sort of why we're doing this. Um, so you know, the fortunate thing is is that when you look at raw land out there in the world, you know, that's that's usually about the cheapest you're gonna be able to get a beast property. Absolutely. Um, and these types of operations, they work well in remote areas, not too remote. Um, you know, I I mean there's there's some really cool operations. Um, it's got Bignal out in um, I think he's in Utah. Big Sky is the name of his resort. It's it's phenom phenomenal. Go look at their website. I mean, it's really beautiful and talk about remote. I mean, this is like ATVs to get there kind of thing. No cell phone reception. Right. Um, that is not the model for me. Um, you know, both from a financing but also a logistics standpoint. So when we were, when we were sort of envisioning this, what we did is we quite literally looked at a map of Virginia and said, okay, here we are. And I drew 30-minute drive, 45-minute drive, hour, hour and a half. Um and I was like, I think it needs to be in here because for the first year. Yeah, you're about to behind Zol. I don't change sheets for a while. That's I mean, that was the reality of how this is going to get off the ground. I'm not gonna do it forever, but you know, I need to be there, I need to see this thing work. Um, I need to know it better than anybody else so that I can hire train people to do it. Um, and so as we sort of looked at that circle, you know, a couple things came up, but we we were looking at Farmville and we were like, Farmville is cool, you know, it's Al Vegas, baby. That's right. Um, you know, Longwood, so yeah, you know, well, but you know, it's it's got enough glitz and glamour there to, you know, have a coffee shop or two, to have some restaurants, have the hybridge trail, some state parks are nearby. So we're like, let's find something there. And we um, you know, we we found this great piece of land um just shy of 25 acres. Plenty of people will tell you you can do this on five acres or five acres, sort of, I think, the minimum you know you can make this business model work. That is so dependent on on your neighbors um and and your proximity to stuff. If you can, if you can get access to five acres that are surrounded by state forest, absolutely it'll work. Yeah. Unfortunately, most five-acre plots that are rural, they are they have been carved up in a subdivision. Um, and so when you're when you see a five-acre plot, for the most part, those are gonna be for putting a single house on. Um, you've got to, in my experience in Virginia, you've got to cross 10 acres to start looking at the ability to do some of the fun stuff, not have to worry about having neighbors sit airing across your property line, that sort of thing. So you asked about numbers. Um, you know, so we got this uh piece of property for$120,000. Um it's actually two pieces of land. It's a 14 and a half acre plot and like a 10 and a half acre plot. It makes this sort of weird hockey stick.

SPEAKER_03: 54:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 54:44

Um and it's it's an interesting plot of land in that we do have some neighbors. You know, this this is the thing, like particularly when you get out west, there is such a thing as raw land. Yeah. And and you could pick up 300 acres and and not have a neighbor touch you on any side, you know. Um, the East Coast has been developed for so long that you are hard pressed to find any stretch of land um short of coming in with really big dollars and buying 600 acres somewhere. Yep. Um, and and that's just not the game that I'm playing. So um, so what we've done is we are leaving the front six acres of our property undeveloped so that our neighbors, their sight lines won't change, their ability to enjoy their homes and all of that, and then our guests aren't gonna see our neighbors, you know? Um smart. So, you know, when we're at 24 and a half acres, um, there's plenty of room for us to go back deep into the woods here. There's a beautiful winding creek, a little ridge that we're gonna take advantage of, all sorts of cool stuff. And we're just sort of tucking it back there. Now, anybody who anybody who's spending time in restaurants will know that that the number of covers is the name of the game. You want butts and seats. And so Eto's Squid, one of my favorite restaurants in the world, is the best example of this, where there are there are seats on top of seats in that restaurant and they are packed all the time. Good for them. As a consumer, and I will put up with it at Edo's because the food is so damn good, but as a consumer, hate that experience. And so when we looked across, you know, the US and and and Europe at other blamping operations, 99% of them are putting, you know, whatever their accommodation is, tents, domes, a frames next to each other in these like grid-like patterns, the vast majority, it's just let's squeeze as many as we can and people will pay for it and let's move on. And we were just like, that's not the operation that we want here. And and again, it was like if the only way to make money doing this is to do it that way, all right, I'll let the numbers guide the way. But what we settled on is we're gonna have 12 accommodations, they're gonna be spread out. So the closest you ever are to another dome in our case is gonna be 75 to 100 feet. Um, there's gonna be forests between you. And so you get privacy, seclusion, you get your own little piece of paradise, you know, and and the numbers bear it out. I mean, that's the thing, is that, you know, so when we're looking at at a sort of a rough estimate on what we think we can get, you know, we're looking at at 285 bucks a night in the off season, you know, colder months, and we're looking up to about 350 bucks a night, you know, not breaking the bank, but not, you know, motel on the side of the highway prices. You know, we're given a premium experience where um, you know, everybody can expect out a king-sized bed with great linens. Um, every campsite has its own hot tub, fire pit, grill, you know, cafe lights. It's gonna be cute. Okay, now we're talking, right? So you gotta eat perking up a little bit.

SPEAKER_02: 58:07

But I'll see them go ahead.

SPEAKER_00: 58:08

Yeah, this is this is not pitching a tent in the woods, you know, and and wondering if, you know, you're gonna wake up next to a raccoon.

SPEAKER_02: 58:14

So describe describe the like structure that the guy would be staying in.

SPEAKER_00: 58:20

So yeah, I'll I'll walk you through your approach to this whole thing, right? Like, so you you pull in off the road, you come about 600 feet back into the woods, you're gonna park your car in the parking lot, and we're gonna have these big oversized wheel wagons for you to throw all your stuff in. And the whole the whole ethos here is that we want you transitioning from, you know, you've left, you know, your your job in Richmond, you've you've driven down from Fairfax, and you're shedding that, right?

SPEAKER_02: 58:46

It's almost like that Hyundai commercial where the guy like turns into a Viking. Yeah. Just take the phone call and he's back to being a Viking.

SPEAKER_00: 58:53

Yeah, 100%. Um, but so you you you you cart your stuff down, you you're not pulling up right next to your accommodation. Because I think it's important for you to get your feet on the ground, take a deep breath of this forest air. Um, you'll pass by our sort of communal pavilion. We have a little self-service camp store. Um, but you're gonna go down the path and you're gonna go to your dome, and what you're gonna see is a 25-foot square deck raised up a little bit and a 19-foot diameter geodesic dome. These structures are so cool. Uh, yeah, it's it's got about a 12-foot ceiling, you know, in the center there, huge bay window in the front, and close it off with a curtain for you know, privacy, sleep, and that sort of thing. But I mean, the beauty of it is you know, your king-sized bed, you know, a little kitchenette so you have you know cold beer, bacon on the fridge, that sort of thing. You don't need to worry about like cooler and ice necessarily. Um, but you open up this big view, you're laying there in bed, and you know, the ideal circumstances, you know, a deer is prancing through the woods, just in you know, in your field of vision. But you're not seeing anybody else. Yeah. You know, just outside on your deck, you've got a propane grill, nice cafe lights at night to, you know, just sort of give you some ambiance, add around deck chairs, picnic table on the ground, you got a full fire pit, um, you know, some stuff so that you're able you can cook on the grill, you can cook on the fire if you want to do that. Um, and then you got your own hot tub right there. So that's that's like I said, here's a little slice of paradise right there for you.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:25

Um is this meant to be more for families, for couples? Like how do you envision like the demographic?

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:31

So we are we're targeting couples. That is that is our primary focus here. You know, it's it's folks that once you tell the hot tub in, kids are out. Right. Um, you know, we're not turning anybody away, but at the end of the day, our marketing and and and the experience that we're building, it's for it's for you know the couples today are working way too damn much. And those simple things of just enjoying a glass of wine with your partner and you know, just saying, hey, I like you. I like spending time with you. It's hard to to like to carve out that space. Absolutely. And so, you know, it it's funny that, you know, it's like we need to buy 25 acres of land and and develop a whole business to carve out those meaningful moments, but I that's huge to me. You know, like I I hope that it's it's sort of come through. I love my wife very much, and I I am I am a better person for it, and and I want that for other people. And and you know, I want people to appreciate the great outdoors, but really I want people to appreciate people.

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:31

Yep.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:32

Um, and I think that that's what animates me in this business. That's what gets me to this place of like, we are really providing a cool and unique service. You know, there's we could talk about insurroundable moments and you know the fun of the whole thing, but I truly do believe that people walk away from this going, man, I feel more me than I have in a long time.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:54

Yeah, you don't feel fully recharge. I mean, there are things that show us through research that just being outdoors, absorbing vitamin D, like being out in the fresh air, like not being attached to our devices and things like that, like that aids in your mental health.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:09

And for especially entrepreneurs, just to get those more because I it's very hard for me to vacation and unplug. Like, uh, if I wasn't married, like my wife has to force me. Like, no, we've had enough, like, yeah, we're gonna do it early, we're gonna go do this. Um, you gotta recharge to be able to take that that town away. And the numbers you broke down there are like, you know, 325, 350 bucks a hay errand during peak season. Um, I want to make sure the audience realizes this, like that's a relatively small number, quote unquote. Um, but you stacked that up. This is easily a strong six-fix business.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:41

Yeah, absolutely. You know, when we get to uh we're we're gonna open with six units and within the first year we'll expand to the full 12. Um, when we get to full operating, you know, we're looking at a top line revenue number of about 1.3 um with room to grow. Now they're taking bigger than I thought.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:01

You know, I I was like, this is probably a half million dollar business, but and I'm sure your overhead costs are pretty low for something like this.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:08

They are. I mean, you know, labor's always big, you know, in terms of of having um, you know, housekeeping, guest services, that sort of thing. But we're we're leaning, we're very much leaning in on what we're calling the invisible service model, where we are actively right now, we're working through every touch point, you know, from from first hearing of us in a Google search to to making coffee that first morning, you're you're waking up there. How can we think of all the friction points ahead of time? Use tech where it's appropriate and use personal touches where it's appropriate, but leaning heavily on the tech so that you can self-check in. Yeah, all the information is is in an email, in a text. Um, you know, the modern traveler wants to have all of that at their fingertips and then be free to make their their choice on, you know, to choose your own adventure. Yep. Uh and we're we're there to facilitate it and get out of the way.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:02

Are there activities andor quote unquote adventures that you guys kind of like set up for them at at these events?

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:09

Yeah. So um, you know, on on the land itself, you know, the so this this is something I'm so excited about. We are gonna have um, so I mentioned that on the southern part of the property is this ridge. Um at its highest point, it's probably about 35 feet, you know, from the ground up. Um up on the top of that, we're gonna build this deck and install a barrel sauna that yes, we'll be able to um, you know, reserve for 30 minutes or an hour. Um so you can go do a soak in the woods, you know, you just you know, steam out there. And this thing has this big glass eye that we're gonna position so that it's off the edge of the deck. And so you're in the trees, you know, 30 feet up, birds flying by, that sort of thing. And it's just it's gonna be a unique experience, unlike anything else that's currently offered in the area. Yeah. Um, so the sauna, we're gonna have a deck on the opposite end of the ridge. We're gonna clear a couple of the trees and have a sunset observation deck there. So, you know, we'll throw like a happy hour occasionally and just be like, hey, come meet the owners. Um, definitely make sure everybody knows it's there. So go enjoy it, you know, sun's going down and just take in the beauty that that is. I mean, you have people's IG on fire, dude, right? Like, I mean, we're just trying to craft those moments that are worthy of taking a picture of saying, you know, look what I did this week.

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:29

Yeah, and especially those things too, where like, you know, in this economy, we don't know if eggs are gonna be twenty dollars one day or the next. Yeah. To be able to do something, let's just say all intents and purposes, everything all in, your groceries, paying for the spot. You know, let's say this is less than a thousand bucks if it's coming in and doing this. Yeah. To do something like that, because my wife's on a hard push to get our kids to Disney World and this whole experience. I mean, that's 10, 15 G's. So it's a leave a family trip like this. To do something that may be an hour away from my house right now and get a weekend away, yeah, and we're gonna spend less than a thousand dollars and have this type of experience. Like, I think those are the things that people are now looking for. Where it's like you don't have to do these big extravagant things, right? But at the same token, like you're getting an experience. Like, I don't have to fly to Wyoming now to have the experience, like, yeah, we could do this right here in our backyard.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:17

Uh, I mean, 1,000%, you know, and and that that was one of the big kickers for us is that as we looked across the market, there's some really cool operations in in Asheville, North Carolina area. Really cool operations in like the Poconos, New York, Pennsylvania. Yeah. Um, outside of and and credit where credit is due, Sandy River Outdoor Adventure Park, which is also in Prince Edward, there's nobody else doing this outdoor experiential thing on the on the scale and professionalism that we're gonna bring to it. Um and so, you know, it's it's it's on people's radar. Yeah, you know, and you know that there are these cool experiences, like you said, in Wyoming, in Utah. Um and but it's it's like I gotta do airfares, you know, rent a car and I gotta do this, that's$1,000 for me to go hang out in the woods. Exactly. And so this this brings it closer. And and you know, part of our decision making is that when we looked at at who's within a three-hour drive of this, you know, you pick up most of Northern Virginia and DC, you get, you know, as far east as Norfolk, you get Raleigh, Charlottesville, Richmond, you know, we've got 15 and a half million people, you know, that that could drive to us and and sort of change their attitude by the end of the weekend. Um, and I think that we will pick up, you know, travelers from further afield as we as we build our brand. But to me, you know, my math will be wrong on this, but you know, if I can just get 0.00001% of the 15 and a half million people, I'm golden for a decade.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:52

See, people don't realize what a small percentage you need to make a business successful. Like during the pandemic, and this is a business I started that only lasted a year. Uh, we had me and my business partner, we created this concept where we brought teachers into the home to work with students during the pandemic. Oh, cool. Because if, you know, I'm nine, ten years old, you're telling me to stay in this room, right? Like, my Xbox is behind me. I'm sitting here playing Call of Duty like the whole time. Yeah. So, like, to look at something like that, where I just lost my train of thought. What did you just say? Uh, just the the number of people and so with that, we were looking at it and we broke down. I was like, Chesterville County is gonna be like the target, then we can go out here. And it was literally like 0.001%. If we got that amount of parents and kids with us in that program, it was a five million dollar business within the first year. Yeah. Like, so everybody thinks you gotta you gotta have a hundred thousand followers on Instagram and you gotta have all this and that. Like, you just need a small amount of people that are willing to rock with you and your brand, and your dreams can come true.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:56

Well, and and sort of piggybag off that, I think, you know, I I love the idea of building, you know, to a hundred thousand followers on Instagram and and and eventually I do hope to have multiple locations of this idea. But right here, right now, I am going to busy myself with making sure that I have six couples in six domes on that first weekend that we open. Yep. That's it, you know. Um, and then and then my next focus is that the is that I turn over and six more people show up. You know, um, those are numbers that I can digest. I think that we get so bogged down, you know, the human mind can't come can't actually understand what a billion is. Yes, no, you know, um, and and a million is tough to wrap your arms around. But six, I can do that all day long. Oh, absolutely. And so let me just iterate on that and and the rest will come.

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:45

And you have a model where that's easily shareable in terms of like the referrals that come from something like that. Yeah. So number one, you're gonna have everybody's Instagram on fire with the sauna and the trees and the sunsets and all these different things, and they're gonna be tagging, they're gonna be putting it out there, and they're gonna be like, their friends are gonna be hitting them up saying, Man, where are you? Like, blah, blah, blah. This is awesome. Oh, I'm just 45 minutes away from your house. Man, that's right around the corner. Go on the website right now and let me book my reservation. Yeah. Um, no, I I love that concept. I made a post the other day that said, in terms of like us conceptualizing these numbers, I made a post the other day that said, Um, if 15 people walked up to you right now on the street and gave you a compliment, like, how would that make you feel? Like it'd probably make your day, maybe your week, maybe that's not a week for sure. Yeah. But we get 15 likes on an Instagram post and we're like, oh, this didn't take half like this wasn't successful. So people have a hard time understanding that like I'd rather have a thousand loyal followers to my brand than 250,000 that really don't give a crack about me. Right. Like, if you can, and I could see that with the model that you're expressing, because it's similar to like um like CrossFit gyms and things like that. I've never been able to successfully market a CrossFit gym, like come in and doing their social media video and things like that. Yeah. Because they make such a community, right? The people that work out at a CrossFit gym, it's like being part of a religion. Yeah, like you're telling somebody every week, hey man, you gotta come to my church, all you gotta change. They are right. That's the way the CrossFitters are like, man, you gotta come get this workout end with me. And I can see your model being something like that where people are just like so gung-ho about what you're providing, yeah, that the word of mouth just really starts to take off of that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:22

Yeah, I mean, we're definitely gonna rely heavily on that. Cause also, as marketers, we know that's the most valuable recommendation you can get, you know. Um, yeah, our our marketing will, you know, we're gonna be very active on Instagram. We'll do some paid stuff and probably some partnerships that make sense, but like really at the end of the day, you know, lesson learned from the the hospitality and the the the restaurant industry is like deliver on what you say you're gonna deliver. Somebody is expecting good food in 30 minutes, just don't screw that up. Um like everything follows from that. And so, you know, we're we're setting a really high, you know, sort of service bar for what we want to provide at Camp Yellow Cardinal. Um, and and we're just gonna hold ourselves to that standard, you know, and and you know, every bit of entrepreneurship is that is that first step is the leap of faith where you're like it's going to be worth it, you know. Us us thinking through every little friction point, thinking about our our level of care here, um, you know, that is gonna pay off on those those first guests that come through and they become evangelists and tell, you know, everybody in their community, dude, you know, you and the wife should go check this out. Absolutely. Um, so yeah, you know, I I I feel like we're we're on the verge of something really big here.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:44

Last question with you as we wrap up. Um, because early on we talked about this in the conversation, the the work-life balance and also maybe being able to pick three things in your life that you have been like really focused on. How old are your kids now? So 14 and 18. Oh man. Oh, so you're you're almost got them out the house. I know, I yeah, I guess I guess there is a light at the end of that tunnel. So now with this new venture, where how how do you see work-life balance right now? Because to me, as an entrepreneur, and you you know describe it ultimately with those three things before. Yeah. It's not like you stuck with those three things for the next 50 years, like it constantly changes. Sure. There are points in my business where my wife knows, like, okay, I need to work a little bit later some of these weeks, or I have a speaking engagement or something like that. Right. But then in these other months, I can kind of pull back a little bit and we can spend some more time with the family. Where are you right now with that in your life in terms of like balancing the time with friends, family, and building a business?

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:38

You know, I I'm never like I'm I'm familiar with the concept of work-life balance, but I don't really believe it. Yeah, I don't I don't think it's a real thing. And and, you know, if I wanted to put on my tinfoil hat, I would say that there's some sort of conspiracy to make us feel like we're all doing something wrong. Um you know, is it possible to work too much to the detriment of other things? Absolutely. You know, is it okay to to neglect, you know, the people that that love you in your life? Absolutely not. Um, but you know, I there's a really great quote um that that work is love made real. And that to me explains how I approach just about everything that I do. I don't have hard lines between when I'm working on the business and when I'm mowing the grass and when I'm cooking dinner and when I'm filing my dad. So it's like it's not like this is work, this is the person. I I'm not clocking in in one and clocking out at the other. I'm I'm living life, you know, and we're all trying to figure it out. And and really at the end of the day, I just hope that I can stack more wins than losses. Um, you know, like I I referenced it's really important to me to be um to be a present and good dad. Um, so what does that look like? It doesn't look the same all the time, but like my 14-year-old, we have breakfast five that five mornings a week. Um, that's important to me, you know. And I sit and sip coffee and he has peanut butter toast. And, you know, I mean, this morning conversation wasn't coming easy. And so we sort of sat and stared at each other. Um, but then, you know, two days from now, he's gonna be telling me about Norse mythology, you know, just adding up as he but 10 years from now, he's gonna be reflecting on those mornings.

SPEAKER_02: 1:15:18

He got to have breakfast with his dad. 100%.

SPEAKER_00: 1:15:20

And and we're talking 35 minutes, you know. And so, you know, I I try to identify things that I'm not willing to negotiate on. Um, but then even that's not true. Like, you know, everything's negotiation. Um, but the things that I'm I'm gonna be like, it's gotta be real damn important for me to move on this. And so mornings with my son, it's it's up there. Um, you know, my wife and I, we we sit down on January 2nd every year and we schedule one date night for every month of the year. We've been doing this for three years now. And and it takes it takes an act of Congress for us to cancel one of those things, do uh, and it just it doesn't mean that we don't go out to dinner any other times. It doesn't mean that we don't connect on other levels, but it does mean that we know uh at the beginning of every year that we're gonna have a meal, no kids, we're gonna be romantic towards each other, we're gonna catch up, but you know, and and it's so important to me, you know. Um, you know, but then you know, coming back to entrepreneurship and that sort of thing, there are plenty of nights where you know, we look at each other and I'm like, you know what, we're caught up on White Lotus. Um, I'm gonna go build some social media posts for three hours. Yep. And and I'm not ignoring anybody and and they don't feel slighted. Um, and you know, my my wife is, you know, like, hey, I haven't seen, you know, I haven't seen the the girls in two months. It's like, go be a digger. That's important, you know? And so I mean, yeah, I it is a very long-winded answer to say that I I don't really believe in in work-life balance, but I do believe in having a value set and saying I try to live by my values. Um, identify those and then then allow the work is done for you.

SPEAKER_02: 1:17:00

Absolutely. Now that was a perfect answer. I can uh I'm definitely chopping that up. That's an IG, that's an IG Rio right there, man. Um, well, dude, this has been awesome. If people want to learn about your new brand, where can they go? How can they learn about this new business?

SPEAKER_00: 1:17:13

Yeah, um, so we're on we're on Instagram and Facebook. Instagram is sort of where the bulk of our our effort is gonna lie. Uh Camp Yellow Cardinal, so that's easy to find us there. Um, go to our website, campyellogardinal.com. Um, please sign up for the newsletter. This is gonna be the best way to find out, you know, when we are are accepting reservations, um, get some discounts, get some behind the scenes looks at everything. Um, so yeah, those are the two spots. And then um, yeah, if anybody wants to holler at me, I'm I'm on LinkedIn. Um, easy to find. I'm not hiding from anybody.

SPEAKER_02: 1:17:47

So good stuff, man. Yeah. Dude, appreciate you being here. This was an awesome conversation.

SPEAKER_00: 1:17:50

Hey, I I appreciate the invite, and yeah, I I enjoyed this very much.

SPEAKER_02: 1:17:55

We'll see you guys on the next episode.