Beyond Neoliberalism Series: The Messy Middle (Part 2) with Wangari Kinoti

There is a wealth of African feminist academic and activist research and knowledge on neoliberalism and its impacts in the majority world. Yet, this knowledge has, for the most part, been removed from conversations on neoliberalism and its ideological and policy tenets and generally disregarded which is a function and consequence of neoliberalism itself.

Recognizing this ActionAid International, Akina Mama wa Afrika and The Nawi Collective  co-convened a series of conversations among African feminists challenging neoliberalism and proposing alternatives towards a collective vision for the African continent and its people. The first of these conversations was held in Nairobi in February 2025

This podcast series: Beyond Neoliberalism ( Weaving a feminist future together) is a series of conversations borne out of the convening held in February 2025, that will interrogate, propose, shape and document pan-African feminist narratives beyond neoliberalism.  This is done in recognition that we are building on decades worth of work. Our intention is to contribute to reinvigorating, documenting and amplifying. connecting key movements, thinkers, creatives and activists.

This episode is an opportunity to reflect on the learnings from the convening and the Jacaranda Paper in envisioning a feminist future and how to get people involved with our guest Wangari Kinoti (Action Aid International).

The Beyond Neoliberalism Series is produced with the financial support of Action Aid International.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to the JALLI Podcast, a podcast from the Naui Collective creating a space for oral documentation between and about African women working to tackle macroeconomic inequalities using a Pan-African feminist lens. I am your host, Elizabeth Meina. Hi everyone, welcome to today's episode of the Beyond Neoliberalism podcast. Today I'm very excited to be speaking to Angare Kinotti from ActionAid. ActionAid played a critical role in putting together this convening so that we can discuss the different ways that African feminists can interrogate, shape, and document feminist narratives beyond neoliberalism. And I'm very, very excited to have her come and share her views about how we can together envision a feminist future and how to get people involved. Before we go into that, Wangari, would you like to introduce yourself along the three keys the personal, professional, and political? Sure, thanks very much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

So I'm Wangari Kinotti. I have engaged in feminist social justice spaces across local to global over the last, I guess, 24 years, beginning in a small women's rights organization in Kenya. And we were working primarily to get more women into elective politics, although we covered a lot more. It was baptism by fire, by the way, you know, as they say. But it was a crucial turning point for me that informs a lot of people. And since then, uh my work has expanded to cover care and women's labor, public services, women's rights in the context of extraction and corporate capture, as well as structural gender-based violence. I have written and co-written on public-private partnerships, post-COVID recovery, the African Continental Free Trade Area, public services and labor exploitation through state-sanctioned labor exportation. All of this, of course, with the African feminist lens. So I would say that I'm involved in what I think is the critical work of African and South Feminist collective thinking about futures beyond or even despite neoliberalism. As you mentioned, I am the I'm with ActionAid International, where I'm the global lead for women's rights and feminist alternatives. ActionAid is a global social justice federation. But I'm also an associate of the Naui Afri FEM Collective, which also co-convened the meeting in Nairobi earlier this year. And we know that Naui is playing a critical part in this kind of work from an African feminist political economy perspective. And I am a member of the South Feminist Futures, which is a community for global South Feminism as an identity and political project. Apart from that, I like to laugh and not take everything too seriously, especially in these times. I enjoy my family and friends and even strangers. I like to read, although, like most of us, I find there isn't enough time to do that anymore. My husband, Maringa, and I have three children, Wemam, Wenda, and Bobo. And those people are a major motivation to my contributing to any effort, whether it's big or small, to make this world kinder, happier, more caring, more just for all of us. So that's me.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

Love it. And I think anyone who has met your children can testify to the fact that you and your husband are doing a wonderful job at raising like conscientious children who are kind, loving, and just wonderful to be around with. So good job. Thank you so much. That means that means everything. Thank you. So given your experience over the years and actually like your grounding, like you're grounding in like collective, collective thinking, collaborative thinking, both with like in your job with Naui and the South Feminist Future, I um I'd love to hear your reflections about what are some of the challenges that we are facing in achieving like critical mass and solidarity in the face of neoliberalism, patriarchy, and coloniality, and how these three concepts have successfully divided people over the years. Can you reflect on what form some of these challenges and divisions have taken?

SPEAKER_01 4:59

I think as we discussed when we were, when we convened in Nairobi in February, um, our biggest challenge and therefore a major source of division may lie in the fact that neoliberalism has taken the shape of a, you know, of a of an inevitability. Um, this is why, despite its failures, it is so resilient, right? So particularly on our continent, because there have been mass challenges to neoliberalism such as the um, well elsewhere, there have been mass challenges to neoliberalism elsewhere, such as the anti-neoliberal pink tide in Latin America, for example. But even there, there have been reversals to right-wing populism. There's also China's, shall we say, rather unique model, which we can talk about in another episode, but which can be seen as a challenge to the global dominance of neoliberalism. I'm saying this because the thing is that many I'm making this distinction for us because many Africans are unfortunately completely persuaded that this is not only inevitable. So neoliberalism as a model is not only inevitable, but the best or most sensible way. Um, and that's that's not an individual, you know, a problem of individual Africans, but it's just the way that the system is set up. So whether we admit it or not, many, many people, many of us from all backgrounds, are okay with neoliberalism, with patriarchy, with coloniality, and all the other things that come along with it. So this is obviously the overarching challenge to critical mass and solidarity. Um, and by okay with it, I mean anything along the spectrum between highly enthusiastically convinced and you know, seemingly or allegedly benefiting from it on one end of that spectrum, and then on the other end, um kind of resigned, you know, accepting of it as an unchangeable reality and inevitability, as I said, or even nihilism, you know, on the other extreme end. And so that's sort of what we have to contend with. And remember that we too, uh, many of us conscious feminists can often be located along this spectrum at different points and in different ways. Um we're also implicated, both consciously and unconsciously, you know, whether we want to admit it or not. So I think the first stage is acceptance, right? So we need to accept that neoliberalism is not in crisis in Africa. It is actually very stable as an orthodoxy and doctrine. To me, that's our greatest challenge. Um, and and and those preaching against this doctrine are therefore heretics, and that's your um sort of um entry point for some of the divisions that you have uh talked about. But thankfully, um there are numerous heretics uh in the form of uh anti-ne-neoliberalism social movements, individuals, academics, collectives, uh, etc. across the continents. Some older, some newer. There have also been some challenges to neoliberalism, or at least attempts to do so at the level of the state and or you know, citizen mobilizations and protests, especially in the in the aftermath of the structural adjustment programs, which are still ongoing, by the way, as we both know. I wanted to ensure that I said that to underline that there is a continuing resistance, um, even sporadic victories to that resistance. And these should in no way be underplayed as we're having these conversations. And this is what we we must and we need to be contemplative about, you know, looking backwards and forwards. So, particularly when it comes to feminist organizing on the continent andor feminist leadership of popular struggles across the continent, you know, for decolonization, for democracy or democratization, for economic justice, for ending structural gender-based violence, and so on. There's a long history of this, um, which is often erased, as we also discussed in Nairobi earlier this year. Uh, it's all it's it's erased, or it portrays women as sort of playing a second-tier supporting role, uh, which we know is false. But fortunately, um, African feminist scholars and activists are constantly debunking um any such um you know notions of of the role of feminists in these popular struggles. Um, yeah, I'm sometimes accused of setting my own exam questions and answering them, but I hope I have answered the original question. Uh, this episode is the is the messy middle, so I think I'm okay. I thrive in the messy middle, so I hope that's okay for a start.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

No, we all do. I mean, like nuance is the thing that gives shape to things. So I'm I'm very okay with you um setting and answering your own questions because you still answered mine, so it's all good. Jumping off from what you said about like um the doctrine and orthodoxy of neoliberalism and the way we have accepted it, I think one of the things that came out of the convening and was recorded in the Jakaranda paper was that African feminists are very clear that strategic world building is the way for us to move beyond neoliberalism. And while we're sticking time, what do you think are some of the immediate nuts and bolts tactics that we can employ to begin building like these new economic realities within the existing structures? I know you've touched on it a little bit in your previous ruminations, but I'd like you to explore further.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

Yes, thanks. The nuts and bolts stuff I think is is the writing, it's the documenting, organizing, movement building, protesting, teaching, educating. Um I'm a serious advocate of political education, particularly among young people. So all of those, um, and of course, creating, which often stands alone while cutting across all these other things that I've just mentioned, if that makes sense. Asking questions, exposing contradictions, rabidly attacking as necessary, um, giving us um what I'll call, you know, our nevertheless, you know, in these sort of seemingly hopeless times, media nevertheless, you know, a loving, truthful, hopeful, um, nevertheless. And I think that's um the nuts and bolts work um that's been happening uh historically among African feminists and is still happening now. Um I think the the questions there that uh, you know, you talked about how do we do this within the current system. Um and that's also something that was um the source of quite a bit of conversation during the convening in February, which is you know, how to maneuver. So some people talk about navigate. For me, I'm talking about maneuvering um in the current system. And a practical example of that, um, which is something I know that you have pondered on in the past, is for instance, um do we engage with, say, the international financial institutions? So the International Monetary Fund, the IMF and the World Bank, um, who we know, you know, these are institutions whose briefcases transport neoliberalism in a very efficient manner, you know, via financial imperialism and and vice versa. And, you know, it's so widely documented how these institutions continue to cause havoc across the continent. And there is now quite a bit of African feminist um analysis of precisely that. So, does engaging with these kinds of organizations or institutions um enforce the status quo? Does it give them legitimacy? Or conversely, if we stay out of it altogether, do we still enforce the status quo? So, how do African feminists strategically um navigate or maneuver um existing power structures? And indeed, should we? So these are, you know, as I said, some of the questions that we were talking about in the in the Nairobi conversation. Many people, um, including those who were present at the convening, do their feminist work through organizations that already strategically engage with or indeed against these institutions. So there needs to be an understanding and some room for that. Um, I think it's important to look at the how and and the what of that engagement. Um so from my perspective, if indeed you're somebody who is in this position where you have to, where are you kind of you know are engaging in one way or other, this is where you might want to, you know, going back to this using of a spectrum to be somewhere between exposing contradictions or harms, um, uh, you know, and and and and somewhere. So between that and and on one end and and and you know, launching a rapid attack on the other. So that this one is a bit of a narrower spectrum in that sense. So not the milder, tepid policy reform stuff. That's that's not going to work with with with with the IFIs from our stance in terms of um or as African feminists um critiquing neoliberalism. So it's not about reform, it's not that mild sort of tepid stuff. But it's worth pointing out that this is the sort of thing where you start to see fissures, um, divisions in global feminism if there's such a thing. But I think you know what I mean. So some global feminists um see those, you know, World Bank, IMF, Spring and Annual Meetings as really important. Um, I don't think anyone would go as far to say as pivotal, but who knows? Maybe some see it as, see them as pivotal. Uh so you hear things like, you know, if you're not at the table, you're on the menu, you know, those kind of things that we're what that we're used to, um, which we can, you know, again, as you said, nuance is important. What I do know is that um broadly as African feminists, we have a particular historical discernment which we can deploy when needed, um, such as in such situations. So not only when it comes to IFIs, but but across those other power structures that we can't avoid.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

I think it's very clear, like from your thoughts, like the the very real need to sit in the tension. Um, because TEPID allows us to be like very like weak and mild and go along with things thinking that there is progress. But the truth is that um even with the idea of historic historical discernment also means that there will be violence. And since violence is always visited upon us, this is an opportunity for us to be like very clear about like where it stops, right? And pushing back um with as much violence as is visited upon us. And I quite like it. Okay, let's see, let's see what it looks like. Once in a while, I like cuz so I'm like, yeah, I'm like rabid, it's called rap rabid deployment. I'm like, yes, let's do that. Let us do that. I think um, since we're looking forward, uh, for listeners who are inspired by the vision of um Tabidi's future for Africa and want to get involved, um, are there any actionable steps or entry points that we can suggest for them? Um, especially uh people who want to work outside organizations. Organizations is very easy, I think, to coalesce around an issue. But if you're thinking about the idea of movement building, solidarity, critical mass, um what are some entry points?

SPEAKER_01 16:57

First of all, for all those groups, read the Jakaranda paper. Shameless plug. Um that that paper that emerges from you know the convening that um is really at the heart of this particular podcast series. Um so obviously read the Jakaranda paper. Uh, but there are a lot of other resources now online as well. Um the Naui repository is a starting point. The Feminist Africa Journal is another. There is a particular volume, I believe, from 2024 that is focused on African feminist struggles in the 21st century. That would be critical learning for movements or people interested in movements. So I think that's important. Um there's also uh the current issue that's sort of looking at how African feminists are organizing around you know this uh you know, quote unquote new normal. So I think that's also important to note and just keep up with um sort of African feminist thinking from scholars and activists in the space that we should keep at the forefront of our of our minds and just make sure that we're keeping up to date with with some of this analysis and applying it where where you know where it makes sense. Um for individuals, uh definitely joining the the growing numbers of collectives of African feminists doing this visioning, teaching, creative, curating, you know, or other types of work. I think that's one of the things that's giving um me lots of hope in this, you know, in these times, um, that there's really um an exciting wave, new wave across the continent with um, you know, African feminist organizing through different collectives and initiatives. And so something to look out for. And for individuals, this is a way to get involved and to kind of embed ourselves in that. Let me go back to movements who I am very optimistically convinced are the primary agents of system change, um, the kind of change that we're talking about, because we're talking about a paradigm shift or you know, a shift away from a certain orthodoxy. Um movements, as I said, are I'm convinced are the primary agents. Um but also they are in many ways the primary casualties of neoliberalism. Um, whether that's through being, you know, sort of impaired or weakened, undermined, um, co-opted, we've seen this over the years. Um, I think many um of the listeners um across the continent may, you know, the the one sort of example of that that may resonate um with many is what we've seen with the trade unions. Um, certainly in my country, the trade union movement um in many ways has been co-opted by by the state and also by wider neoliberal forces. Um I mean, I I make no, I'm not claiming to have this vast knowledge of movements, but I think that we need to see how to better join up across issues. Um so minimize single issue mobilization um as an approach and increasingly adopt uh anti-neoliberalism as an overarching frame for for all of us. And I think, you know, some of the you know, I think that, you know, in in the impairing, undermining cooperation of of movements and movement work um has come this um sort of uh yeah tendency to focus on on single uh single issues or mobilizing around uh single issues. Um and it's not to say that um many movements are not already, you know, sort of organizing across issues or even adopting anti-neoliberalism as an overarching frame. So many movements have been doing that and continue to do that. For mainstream, you know, more mainstream organizations, I think we need to learn from this and support it, support it, right? So decenter mainstream organizations need to decenter themselves and not invade nor replace movements. So um, and even if in supporting movements or getting closer to movement work, ensuring that we are not forcing movements into, you know, to kind of professionalize or to NGOIze, um, which is something that we are constantly at risk of, um, especially because of, you know, ways of funding and so on. Um so we have to be very careful that we are not perpetuating this professionalization or NGOization of movements or the side, you know, making putting movements into silos, um, or the work of movements into silos due to you know whichever factors, including funding. Uh, because that's that would be the work of neoliberalism. Um, so we need to be doing the exact opposite.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

I agree. I agree with you, and I really look forward to linking like some of the resources you've talked about in the show notes so that our listeners can be able to access this thinking um more easily. Um, I'm a big proponent of cross-movement work. Um, I think that's the only way we will move um beyond this siloed thinking. And also, it also allows us to learn like intergenerationally and you know, borrow from the past and the future to figure out how to move forward as a people. Our last question is what is your contribution towards a collective vision for the African continent and its people?

SPEAKER_01 23:05

I mean, my simple answer is that I hope uh and what I see my contribution to be is the kind of stuff that we've just talked about. So um, you know, kind of you know, straddling the world of uh of a mainstream organization, particularly an international organization, that is, you know, um a social justice, a global social justice federation uh that is, you know, dealing with some of those contradictions around the space of this kind of organization in these conversations, uh, but also belonging to collectives of African and other global South feminists, kind of doing the bridging work, if if that's what I can, if that's how I can I can phrase it. So that is um hopefully uh my contribution to our collective vision.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

Excellent. And we are thankful for the ways that you've been able to be like a bridge in all these different spaces and to continue offering like your expertise and solidarity, um, even as part of the Naui collective. It's been very, very helpful to learn and work alongside you. Um I'm also grateful for Naui Akinamama and uh Action Aid for the convening. It was such a wonderful gathering of AFI FEMS to just come think together, you know, critique, um, laugh where needed, and we hope for more spaces for engagement that continue to help us think together. Thank you for your time, Wangari. Um, and thank you, listeners, for listening to today's episode.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Thank you so much for having me. It's been wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

Thank you for listening to today's episode. Stay connected with us on social media and subscribe to our podcast on all your favorite platforms to stay up to date on all things jali. Until next time, remember to keep amplifying the voices and perspectives of African women in your own circles. See you.