Episode 155: Michelle Hurn ON Severe Anorexia Nervosa to Remission with an Animal-Based Ketogenic Diet

Today, we have the privilege of hosting Michelle Hurn, a registered and licensed dietitian, a seasoned long-distance runner, and an ultra marathon champion, conquering an impressive 44.63 miles in a six-hour time race. But her accomplishments extend beyond the running track. Michelle is a dedicated ketogenic lifestyle coach, guiding and empowering individuals to embrace a low-carbohydrate, high-protein, animal-based lifestyle.

What sets Michelle apart is her holistic approach to wellness. She goes beyond dietary changes, aiming to help clients reverse chronic illnesses, including the formidable challenge of type 2 diabetes and more. Not only is she an advocate for health transformation, but she's also a prolific author.

Michelle penned the compelling book, 'The Dietician's Dilemma,' delving into the intricacies of nutrition, and she has a brand new release titled 'The Fox Family Food Fight,' a children's book that we'll have the pleasure of discussing later on.

Get Michelle's New Book here: https://amzn.to/3MUoPeZ

Get the Dietitian's Dilemma: https://amzn.to/47K00KD

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Transcript

Track 1: 0:49

I'm so excited for this guys. Today we have a very special guest, Michelle Hearn. Michelle is a registered and licensed. Dietician and a long distance runner. In fact, she is a champion in ultra marathon covering an impressive 44. 63 miles in a six hour time raise. But that's not all. She's also a ketogenic lifestyle coach where she guides and empowers individuals on their journey to embrace a low carbohydrate, high protein, animal based lifestyle. Her unique approach goes beyond dietary changes. She's on a mission to help clients reverse chronic illness. Including type 2 diabetes and much more. And if that's not impressive enough, Michelle authored a compelling book titled, The Dietician's Dilemma. And her brand new book, that we'll get to talk about later on, uh, The Fox Family Food Fight, a children's book. Uh, I'm so excited for this. I'm here with Michelle Herr. Michelle, welcome to the show. Welcome back to the show, I should say.

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 1:46

thanks for having me back.

Track 1: 1:48

Awesome. So, Michelle here. has been on the show before, and that was episode, uh, was that 80? 80, I believe. Back then, we talked about her relationship with food, becoming a dietitian, and reversing chronic illness. If you want to listen to that, that's episode, uh, 80. And I love having you back on, because it's a chance. To not only connect, but you know, go and revisit these topics and we can go deeper into these topics, which are critical for making lifestyle changes. Um, you gotta understand Michelle here transformed from a person with a, uh, you know, history of eating disorders, overcoming severe health challenges and building a successful life and becoming an athlete, right? So, but first, let's talk about The story, I would love to have you tell that story that led you to where you are today. Michelle, take the floor.

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 2:43

Yeah, thank you. Um, yeah, just briefly, my history. When I was 12 years old, I was diagnosed with anorexia nervosa. I was 5 feet tall, 57 pounds, so incredibly underweight. I ended up going to an inpatient treatment center for 60 days, where I was immediately put on a 24 hour tube feeding system, fed a standard American diet, and put on 7 different medications, uh, for anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation. GI distress, uh, you name it, was pretty terrible. You know, and I was told, like, hey, if you survive, you're gonna have to become just a high functioning human with an eating disorder. Like, people don't recover from eating disorders. Your, the doctor told me I would always have anxiety, I would probably relapse, engaging behaviors, like, this was just my lot in life. And unfortunately, you know, they were pretty accurate. I became weight restored, but I suffered severe anxiety. Throughout my adulthood, adolescence, I often, you know, felt like, I describe it as feeling like I was standing on the sidelines of my own life, you know, I was constantly thinking about food and calories and worrying. Um, yeah, I mean, I became a dietitian. I wanted to help people, and I knew food was powerful. You know, I had gone from being, you know, the point in my life where they weren't sure if I was going to survive, to I was rate restored, I was able to compete in some athletic events. Uh, but yeah, when I became a dietitian, there were just so many things in the field that didn't make sense, you know? And as a young dietitian, I would ask questions, like, well, why are we giving type 2 diabetics so many carbohydrates? Like, shouldn't we be teaching them to eat less carbohydrates? And I remember, you know, as a student, flipping over the two feeding formulas and just being like, oh my god, this is the same stuff that I was fed when I was 12. You know, at that point, I was

Track 1: 4:31

Mm,

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 4:32

And it was like corn syrup and maltodextrin and soy and canola oil, like all these highly inflammatory processed ingredients. And I would just ask questions, like, is this the best way to feed somebody who either has a cancer or been in a traumatic accident where they can no longer, you know, take food by mouth? And I was just told like, oh, it's all about calories, it's calories in, calories out, quality is basically irrelevant. Um, yeah, it was just, it was pretty awful after becoming a dietician. You know, I just saw the, like, revolving door of sickness, you know, patients would come in with pre diabetes or type 2 diabetes and then it wasn't long before they had to get, like, an amputation, there was infections, kidney failure, and, yeah, it was pretty disheartening. And in 2019, I had my own health crisis, too. I was trying to qualify for the Olympic trials and the marathon. I'm a long distance runner, and it just felt like my

Track 1: 5:23

hmm,

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 5:23

cliff. I went from being able to easily run 10 to 15 miles a day, to I was getting cold sweats, I had like all kinds of random aches and pains, I couldn't sleep at night, my, uh, lifelong anxiety went from being bad to, um, really bad, like I had to call out at work, I was having panic attacks, I was driving to work and I just broke out in a cold sweat, like I had to pull over, I couldn't see, um, and of course, you know, you go to your doctor, you get labs run, I called dietician friends, And they all said the same thing, like, Wow, you must not be getting enough calories. You must not be getting enough carbohydrates. And at that time, I was eating at least 400 grams of carbohydrates a day. So, you know, of course, I tried to eat more. And, uh, that didn't go well. So, I ended up, you know, deciding I just wasn't going to run anymore. I was just like, I don't want to do this anymore. And I, at that point, you know, decided, well, I'm not going to run. Why not, um, follow a ketogenic diet for a while? Like, I, I, at that point just thought, like, maybe reducing the carbs, getting a little bit more protein, maybe that will help. I had no idea, um, the dramatic switch that would happen once I really vastly increased animal proteins. And, yeah, that's kind of how, how my story and my advocacy took off. And it's, uh, my life hasn't been the same since.

Track 1: 6:50

Yeah, and you wrote the book, The Dietitian's Dilemma, which is I recommend for anyone who wants to learn about this and, you know, reversing chronic illness. It's on Amazon, we'll link it on the description box below so you guys can check that out. But you talked about being 12 years old, facing like serious health issues, right? You mentioned being placed on, you know, tube feeding, like you've saw, like you've seen when you were a young dietician. Um, how did that experience, you know, impact your relationship with food starting there? Because, you know, I can imagine at 12 years old, yeah, but that's, that's probably pretty scary for, you know, at that age.

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 7:31

uh, It's interesting, um, you know, when you're, I look back and think, like, as a young person you don't, you don't think about, like, just how dramatic and terrible sometimes, like, as an adult, I'm like, holy god, you know, I mean, I was away from my parents, like, dropped off in Arizona for 60 days, you know, you're immediately driven to the hospital and put in a tube, and at that point, they were thick, the tubes nowadays are super thin, I mean, it basically felt like you had stroke broke for two months, you know, you have this tube in your throat. And, um, unfortunately, because of my body chemistry, the tube got clogged all the time. I would wake up in the middle of the night just, like, soaked in tube feeding formula. You know, the nurse would come in and be like, ah, goddammit, you know, clean me up, and we'd have to increase the formula. It was awful. And, um, you know, constantly had stomach aches. Constantly, you know, was just bent over. And, you know, gas and cramping and bloating. Crying, just from the tooth beating. So you're, you know, you're in so much pain from all the sugar and garbage that you're getting fed. And then it's like, okay, well you still have to eat all this food. And if you don't, you're, you know, a terrible non compliant patient. So, yeah, as a, as a young person it was, um, Yeah, it was probably, I would say the worst experience of my life. The only, uh, those two times in my life I felt like I'm not going to survive this. And that was certainly one of them.

Track 1: 8:52

Mm. And how then that influenced you, your career choices to becoming a dietician? Why did you want to become a dietician? Mm. Mm. Mm

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 9:02

Yeah, when I became weight restored, you know, when I went from, you know, the, uh, The doctor told my parents that I probably wasn't going to survive. And I've had people ask me, like, oh my god, like, why would they say that in front of you? And they didn't. They actually told me to wait, and they took my parents in another room, but I'm 12, so, you know, I kind of followed and listened. Um, I remember how, like, hopeless that feeling was, and how terrified. And, you know, when my parents came out from that meeting, Um, you know, my dad, that's the first time in my life I saw my dad cry and my mom's crying. And I remember just like, everything in me, I was like, I will not cry. I will not cry. I will not cry. Cause I thought this is the last time my parents are going to see me alive. You know, cause they're leaving. They're going back to Texas. So, you know, I told them I'm going to be fine. This is going to be okay. You know, wait until they leave and then I can lose it. Um, but being able to, to live and then being able to, you know, compete as an athlete and to be able to. To heal, I, like I said, I knew there was something, there was something to nutrition, there was something to just how miraculous the human body is that I had to talk about, I had to figure out, I had to get to the bottom of, and I knew at that point in my adolescence and even into adulthood, I knew I hadn't totally figured it out, because even though, like I said, I was weight restored, I still had chronic, um, anxiety, really bad, um, you know, had pretty poor coping skills, engaged in a lot of self injury, Um, periods of just severe depression, but I, I, I was, I was hoping when I became a dietician, I was really going to learn more mechanisms of what is the food to do to the brain? How can we overcome some of this anxiety? What does our brain need to have to create neurotransmitters? And of course you don't learn that. The Academy of Nutrition is just funded by all kinds of processed foods, and that's certainly a different topic we can talk about, but. Um, yeah, I was just really, I was really motivated to, to share hope, because I knew hope and healing was possible, and at the same time, I also was curious if there was a way to eat that would alleviate some of my chronic anxiety.

Track 1: 11:13

That definitely created that purpose for you but that's not um, the end of that journey for you. You were about to learn quickly that, because you started as a young dietician working at the acute care hospitals, right? And, you know, how they care for diabetics over there. It was an eye opener for you. Um, it's very important to point out, too, from, coming from your experience, right? Because that's when you started to question the conventional approach, right? In cases of type 2 diabetes. Um, and then, when you were working there, I want you to be able to point out why, uh, what prompted you to challenge these norms. You were, you were there, you were seeing what's going on, and how they care for patients. Um, What was, what prompted you? What, what specific situation or what happened at the acute care that you think that, um, they're not doing correctly?

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 12:10

Yeah, you know, I'm very interested in low carbohydrate nutrition, and really just my own health. Even as a young dietitian, my, my biggest concern, you know, things that I even brought to my clinical director. is, uh, we would call them frequent flyers. I was seeing the same patients progressively getting worse. And, not just like one person, you know, because people are like, oh, there's always one, or a few people aren't going to do what you tell them. For the most part, it seemed that my patients were genuinely trying to follow the guidelines, to eat a lot of grains, low fat, to move as much as they could. And they were getting progressively sicker. And, you know, talking to other dieticians across the board, they were seeing the same thing. But, you know, we were just told, look, it's not the guidelines, the patients aren't compliant, you know, type 2 diabetes is a progressive disease, you know, unfortunately, most people are just going to get worse. Um, and like I said, like, that didn't make sense to me. It made sense that as a health practitioner, I should be seeing people get better or improve, you know, certainly not get worse. And so that was kind of when I initially questioned what was going on. But I was taught as a dietitian, I mean, they hammer into you that all foods must fit, sugar in moderation is fine, you know, if you don't eat carbohydrates, that's an eating disorder. It's restrictive. So, you know, certainly at that time I wasn't really interested in ketogenic diets or low carbohydrate diets. It wasn't like I said until I lost my own health that I really took a major change. And then when I saw how dramatically it impacted That's when I dove into the research and I was appalled by how many clinical trials we have on ketogenic diets. And that's one thing, you know, people say, Oh, it's a fad. We have over 20, 000 studies, not two, not 10, 20, 000 studies. The ketogenic diets are the most studied diet and it's showing they're effective. They're sustainable. Um, people actually like eating this way and they reverse many chronic diseases. So, yeah, I, once I saw the literature, I was like, why aren't we practicing this?

Track 1: 15:18

You know, I talked to somebody about this. Had the same situation, but, um, the nurse said, Hey, I'm going to give you this because I'm not going to deprive you. And sometimes that's the thinking, right? I'm not going to deprive somebody of, you know, yogurt or... Or banana just because of what their condition like, I mean, which is so ironic because you know, that's the very thing that's making them sick, right? Um, can you go through like just the, what they feed, you know, diabetics, just, I want to give the listeners an idea, right? Of what food is like, yeah.

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 15:56

It's truly embarrassing. Um, you know, in the hospital, a diabetic will start their day with, you know, pancakes with sugar free syrup, um, a glass of milk, uh, fruit. Um, salt's usually restricted, so no bacon, but maybe like some egg, uh, substitute, egg whites. Um, and then lunch, you know, a sandwich or pasta with like three ounces of lean meat. A small salad with a light dressing and a cookie. Um, dinner would be the same thing. You know, either a pasta or a, it's always starch. I mean, you're getting 75, sometimes up to 90 grams of carbohydrates three times a day. And then usually two, um, snacks with 15 to 30 grams of carbohydrates. Which is like, hell of a lot of sugar for somebody who cannot tolerate sugar.

Track 1: 16:48

yeah, exactly. I don't know what, what it is, but, you know, people think that when they eat carbs, it doesn't turn to sugar in the blood. Like, that's what the body does. It doesn't care if it's carbohydrates or sugar.

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 17:02

people, there's a belief that if I'm a type 2 diabetic and I eat carbs, as long as I take insulin, it's okay. Because my blood

Track 1: 17:11

mm hmm.

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 17:12

And what I like,

Track 1: 17:13

Of course.

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 17:13

well, where do you think that sugar goes? It doesn't go into like, an alternative universe. Your body, if you're a type 2 diabetic, think of analogy, think of like, a hoarder's house. There is literally nowhere to put anything, like, shit is like coming out of the windows, right? There's no room at the end.

Track 1: 17:31

Mm hmm.

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 17:32

when a diabetic, type 2 diabetic, takes in more carbs, you know, and they dose themselves with insulin, that sugar gets stored as fat. And we basically have an unlimited capacity to store fat. But depending on your genetics, that fat may be, um, can be more stored as visceral versus subcutaneous fat. And what that means is some people actually store more fat around their organs. And that's extremely dangerous. That's the reason why type 2 diabetics have a 2 4 fold risk of heart disease. So, the best thing to do, just like that hoarder's house, like, what makes sense to do? Well, get some of the shit out of the house. You know, stop taking carbohydrates. Ideally, you're gonna burn some of that glucose that's stored, you know, going for a walk, doing some exercise, and you're gonna stop bringing it in.

Track 1: 18:18

Hmm. When you talk about just the tendency of the system just blaming patients for not adhering to their diet, and I understand that, you know, I experienced that with keto, with, you know, where people don't adhere to it 100%, but you have to understand what the current nutrition guideline is for people with type 2 diabetes. Like you talk about pancake, no sugar, no sugar syrup, banana, yogurt, like pasta, like you got to understand if that's the guideline. They're slowly killing them, right? It's, what if their diet's not even that, right? Um, you know, as someone with a background in dietetics, how do you think, like, healthcare professionals, particularly, like, dietician, can better, like, communicate the importance of just lifestyle change to patient?

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 19:07

Well, I think first they have to believe it and understand it themselves. I think that's a big problem, as many dietitians are very against low carbohydrate nutrition. They're afraid of it. They think it's restrictive. Um, because that's what we're taught, you know? The Academy of Nutrition, which is the governing board of all dietitians, is heavily sponsored by processed foods, including Coca Cola, Hershey's, Pepsi, Coke, Quaker, you know, Splenda, all kinds of companies. And so, you know, most dietitians are honestly pretty terrible. And, you know, I can't totally blame them. It's like literally your entire education tells you one thing. And, you know, you try to practice it and it doesn't work. And then everyone's telling you, oh, it's not what you're practicing. So, I mean, that's step one. Is getting actually healthcare professionals on board. Um, and yeah, I guess step two, communicating to patients. That if you're type 2 diabetic, if you're obese, I mean, you no longer have a healthy relationship with carbohydrates. You no longer have a healthy relationship with food. You know, at least for a while, you really need to eliminate these foods from your diet. They are, they are hurting you. By continuing to eat them, you're slowly killing

Track 1: 20:16

Mm hmm. Mm

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 20:18

and being honest, like sometimes in my experience in healthcare, my god, we coddle people. It's okay, just do that. Like, I try to be as honest as possible. And I'm not being mean or rude. I'm certainly not, like I said, I'm not shaming or blaming anything I think our healthcare system is to blame. But I'm also not beating around the bush. You know, I'm being very direct and very honest. And then I'm offering a solution. Like, what can we do? Because I think most people are really afraid. Like, oh man, I don't want to eat chicken breast and, you know, uh, free salad dressing. It's like, good, because I don't want you to eat that either. I want you to eat some really delicious, uh, food. I just need it to be, uh, low in carbohydrates. We certainly can talk about, you know, some higher fat options, some higher fat meats, and things that are delicious and tasty. But we've got to get that, you know, your blood sugar and your A1c down.

Track 1: 21:10

Yeah. They gotta audit their lifestyle. They gotta look at what they're having for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, um, because that can just, you know, fly under the radar. They could have like Coca Coke, but they don't, they don't think that can hurt because it's just one, a couple, a couple of that in a week, but that can add up, right? Um, just. You know, education about where, you know, sugar is coming from, where carbohydrates is coming from, um, before, before I even Started the ketogenic diet. I didn't check labels. I didn't check, um, nutritional labels. I didn't check the amount of carbohydrates I think it's just that, you know It for me when you get diagnosed or if you know somebody who gets diagnosed for me it's education and educating yourself on first what the diagnosis is and what does that mean, why you got from, why you got that diagnosis and just learning that and educating yourself on how to maybe, you know, look at that disease and what's the prognosis if you take metformin for years, right? Cause you're expected to take it, um, forever. I mean, as long as you're living, you have to take it. So, I mean. Look at how people are doing it and look at how they're changing their lifestyle and making it better for themselves, but But, you know, for me, I've always been opposed to medications anyways. That's why when I started this journey, I looked into, you know, maybe meditation, right? I started there when I was, you know, suffering from major depression. I started there. It didn't stop there. Nutrition came into play. I looked into Keto and I lost a little bit of weight. But, you know, energy is up. You know, the fog lifted. And symptoms of depression went away. For me, so, The next thing that I did was to educate, I educated myself. I reached out to people. And, you know, like this, you know, talking to people like this and, you know, they, they are willing enough to share their story and how they got to where, how they got to heal. And that's where, where it started for me. But yeah, um, it starts for, for me, education, educating yourself. Um, so I want to ask what challenges do they face in promoting like this message effectively, do you think?

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 23:44

And you say, they? Like, dieticians? Or...

Track 1: 23:47

Yeah, the challenges, um, dieticians or healthcare professionals in general, I know this can be, um, such a risk for their career, right? Obviously, for you, you had to, like, you quit your job, uh, as an acute care dietician, right? Um, and this could be scary for people, right? For me, if you have come to this, Uh, if you have come across this information, right, there's no going back from there, right? If you, if you're a dietician, you come across this information, and you didn't do anything about it, right? For me, that can be criminal, right? If you didn't look into it, right?

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 24:28

Yeah, ethically,

Track 1: 24:29

about you?

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 24:32

you know, we all take the, uh, do no harm, right? And so, you know, when I'm seeing my patients not get better, I, I didn't at that point believe I was doing harm. But once I healed myself and I really dove in and understood the research, then I realized that the nutrition guidelines were doing a lot of harm. And if I was working in an institution that required that that's what I teach. Then, ethically, I couldn't do it. And, you know, it's a huge conundrum for me. I have dieticians reach out to me all the time. Like, what do I do? You know, I can't leave because I need the money. Um, and I hear that. You know, I had to stay longer, certainly than I would have liked to, when I was working in acute care. So, you know, what I always say is, if you're able to potentially, you know, find something else, like maybe you have to stay in your current situation, But are you going to do health coaching on the side? Are you going to, you know, potentially see if there's another opportunity where you will be able to practice principles that, um, you know, align with human physiology and actually help people? But it's, it's a huge challenge. You know, we're, the biggest, um, roadblock for dietitians is there's so much propaganda and so much money behind, um, keeping people sick. You know, there's no, there's not a lot of money in health. You know, if you think about it, I can't heal you as a patient, because then I lose you as a customer, and I can't kill you, because then I lose you as a customer. So the only way for the healthcare system to profit is I have to keep you perpetually sick.

Track 1: 26:02

hmm. Mm hmm.

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 26:03

fucked up, if you think

Track 1: 26:04

Yeah. Yeah.

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 26:05

right? That's capitalism. And so, in order to, um, you know, as dietitians, like when we practice low carbohydrate nutrition, our diabetics heal. You know, we have studies, people got off 150 units of insulin in 8 days. carb diet. You know, people, we saw like insulin, insulin sensitivity improve in two weeks. You know, I have patients that have type 2 diabetes for 30 years. So the big roadblock though is, I mean, you'll hear it. It's meat is bad for you. Fat is bad for you. Um, the body has to have carbohydrates. Your brain has to have carbohydrates, sugar in moderation. If you don't eat fat, you have eating disorder. So there's all these things that are not true. But they've been repeated so many times and they're literally in our education as dietitians that it's, uh, for lack of a better word, we're kind of brainwashed. Um, and so, you know, it's constantly like pounded into your head. So it really takes, you know, like even for me I consider myself an intelligent human, right? It really took my own health crisis to make a major change. So that's kind of, and the system doesn't support it, you know. You really have to find a private institution where you can work as like a ketogenic dietitian. Or, you know, another resource.

Track 1: 27:20

Yeah, it's really hard to break free from it unless you've actually, um, gone through it, right? For me, I've gone through major depression, but I was curious enough to ask the right questions, right? Um, and you were the same. You were able to question why are they giving them this and that and they're not getting better. Like, What was different for other people and you said it's, it's a conundrum because, um, you know, some dieticians, right, even though they see that it's hard for them because their, their livelihood is on the line, right? And sometimes you will have to, um, stick around for, for longer and sometimes you can't get away from it, right? Because again, you're risking your whole life. Um, and I can imagine how like, when, if I know this information, I'm working there, if I'm, you know, feeding a patient, it's going to be hard for me to even like drop off food and not say anything, right? I, I, like, you know, I believe that if I'm in that situation. I don't know what I could have, would have done, but I should, I would have said something, you know, like, um, and for you, you, you actually quit your job, um, did the right thing, wrote a book, and you're now helping coach clients traverse type 2 diabetes, which is really great for a lot of people and give a lot of people hope, but Thank you. For those people, yeah, I mean, you, you, you just can't turn your, and not say anything, right? Um, I want to talk about the study you sent me, and this was published by the journal Metabolic Health back in June recently. The, the research was done by yourself and two other experts. Um, the title is Animal Based Ketogenic Diet Puts Severe Anorexia Nervosa Into Multi Year Remission. A case series so this results were astonishing right when I was reading this, you know, the results here is I'm going to read it word by word patients with anorexia and refractory to standard care therapy each achieved remission of between one to five years to date on a high fat animal based ketogenic diet patients exhibited not only improvements in weight With weight gain of over 20 kilograms each, but also Diminution of anxiety and overall enhanced mental well being. When I read that out loud, what does that mean to you?

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 29:59

Makes me really happy. Um, you know, and obviously getting to know these three individuals very closely, um, was really very special. You know, and obviously my own story of having severe anorexia and almost dying, I, this topic is certainly close to my heart. And I did a presentation on animal based diets and anorexia two years ago. at a conference, and that's when, after the conference, you know, Dr. Norwitz, he was on, one of my co authors on the study, reached out to me and said, like, we should get a paper published, and I remember saying, nobody's gonna want to publish this, you know? But we thought, like, well, why not, like, not try? Why not try to, um, see if we can get this in the literature? Because anorexia has the highest mortality rate of any eating disorder, any psychiatric disorder. Meaning more people die of anorexia than major depression, schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder. Um, you know, in my book I talk about how, you know, there's a study where 20 percent of the people who died of anorexia actually took their own life. You know, they, they committed suicide. It was just, and I, my heart breaks, but I remember, I remember what that's like. You know, I remember praying that I wouldn't wake up. You know, I didn't obviously actively try to take my own life, but I did. I just was so disappointed when I didn't, you know, die, because you're just, you're suffering so much. And you just don't see any light at the end of the tunnel, I mean your whole body hurts. And you literally become your own worst enemy. Um, and unfortunately the standard of care is just failing. You know, there's a greater than 50 percent relapse rate. You know, can you imagine, like, let's say you broke your arm, and you went to a surgeon and they said, you know, there's a 50 percent chance this arm's gonna fall off. There's a 50 percent chance it'll be fine. You'd be like, get me another surgeon. Are you kidding me? 50%? Flip a coin? And that's just... To me, we have to start asking difficult questions, because the dogma is we can't ask somebody with a, um, dysfunctional relationship with food to restrict food. And, you know, by doing that, we have, in my opinion, really not looked at anorexia or bulimia or binge eating disorder correctly. Because we're looking at them as purely, um, psychiatric diseases. Where in the study what we're arguing and what we're pointing out is we don't believe they're psychiatric diseases. We believe they are metabolic psychiatric diseases. And what does that mean? That means we believe there's an important metabolic component that's being overlooked. So the question we are asking is we put somebody with severe siia on the standard American diet, significant chance of relapse within a year. We these three individuals and not, I mean these are just three. I've talked to hundreds. Um, we put them on a low carbohydrate, very high fat, lots of animal product diet. And they do really well. They gain weight. Their anxiety decreases. So we wanted to point out, like, why is that happening? You know, and certainly, you know, we don't have all the answers in this study. I believe we ended saying, like, hey, we need more research on this. But one of our theories, certainly, is that the brain just can't metabolize glucose very well. You know, we know we have insulin receptors in our brain. And just like epilepsy, you know, babies have epilepsy. They didn't do anything wrong. There's just a genetic abnormality in them. Um, We hypothesize this like dr. Chris Palmer with some major psychiatric disorders, you know So when we start filling the brain with ketones when you get a very low carbohydrate diet People do much better mood stabilizes and then at the same time You're also flooding their body with highly bioavailable nutrition. It's it's funny to me But I appreciate the fact that there's a there's a study The people that, sorry, I love that there's a study about this, um, that had severe anorexia or bulimia had gastrointestinal damage, right? Like, oh hey, binge and purge or you starve yourself, your GI system's messed up. Yeah, no way, right? But the point of that being, does it make sense for somebody that has severe GI damage to feed them lots of sugar and flour, you know? Things they, their GI in the best of worlds may not be able to absorb well. Well, shoot, is it going to absorb well if it's damaged? Probably not. It's probably going to cause pain and all kinds of stuff that I experienced when I was 12. So when we feed people these, um, highly bioavailable nutrition, you know, that doesn't have the sugars and the fibers and all those things, things are absorbed really well. The brain can finally get, you know, the iron and the B12 and the folate and all the essential fatty acids. So, we were trying to show a different view. Like, hey, This is the, you know, a different idea than the standard American diet. I would say the response rate has been very positive. I actually expected a lot more negative rebuttals. Of course, there's, there's been a few very angry auditions, you know, but in general people have reached out asking more questions. Which is, you know, that's the goal is we want to get the conversation going and we're not saying we have all the answers. We're not saying this will work for every person. We're saying that a high calorie, high fat, animal based, ketogenic diet is showing a lot of promise in this area.

Track 1: 35:18

You know what I'm, uh, well, congratulations for one for, uh, getting published this is, you know, one step in the right direction. Um, but one thing that I am, I want to question when people criticize, you know, what have, have anyone heard anyone, um, say that. On the standard American diet or any type of treatment that has reverse type 2 diabetes, right? Or have reverse, um, Like, like this, uh, the results here, astonishing, right? They have, you know, gained weight, 20 grams, 20 kilograms each. Have they ever, have these dietician heard anything like this before? For them to question, right? This is, this is potentially a cure, right? We're curing type 2 diabetes. We're curing, um, severe anorexia nervosa. And their response is to criticize?

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 36:21

That's

Track 1: 36:22

I'm, I don't get that.

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 36:23

dogma is.

Track 1: 36:24

I don't get that.

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 36:26

isn't that interesting? I agree. When I first, when I was in acute care, after I fixed my health, you know, I basically went from I'm never running again, anxious mess, everything in my life is a mess. to following a low carb diet, feeling better, anxiety was better, I started running, and I was about to compete in an ultra race. One of my co dietitians pulled me aside and said, you know, I don't think all this beef is good for you. And not, not shaming this person, but she's 5'2 and you know, probably 250 pounds. And so it's this dietitian, Pulled me aside, you know, that's how strong the dogma is on her head. She felt like, I have to tell Michelle that beef and butter is bad for her, you know? She should be eating salad and bagels like me. And I remember it was just like, wow, the cognitive dissonance is just wow, you know? So I think, um, I think that's hard. I think, uh, as humans, it's very hard for us to say I'm wrong. I don't know. I think as I've gotten older and a little more mature, and I'm 40 now, I, I have a much better ability to say those things. To say like, I'm not always right. I'm willing to grow, to learn, to change, to evolve. Um, and I think some people aren't. And like you pointed out earlier, it's very hard if your job, if your paycheck depends on you believing something,

Track 1: 37:50

Hmm.

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 37:51

to change your views.

Track 1: 37:53

Yeah, yeah. But, when, when you hear somebody healing from type 2 diabetes, like, and your first thought is, you know, to criticize, I don't get that. You know? Um, what's the, what's, if, if we're just making this up. What's the game, right? You're right? I mean, we're just giving them information. We're not asking them for money. You know what I mean? Like,

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 38:21

People are like, it's like, I make a hell of a lot less money now than I did when I used to work in QK. You know, it's uh, it is interesting. It's like you have everything. If you decide to stand out and step out, I mean, your ability to be criticized and judged and whatever is just, you need to put yourself out there. I, it's, yeah, I don't, I don't know. It would be my hope that more people would approach, Everything in life with a little curiosity, you know, just you know, I'm like I said, I'm always right I'm open to if somebody tells me something that maybe I don't understand or agree. I feel like oh interesting Tell me more, you know, tell me more. I I believe that if I disagree with your point I need to understand it better than you, you know, so if somebody really thought ketogenic diets were terrible I think I would love that they dug into the research and could understand it better than me. They change

Track 1: 39:15

yeah, yeah,

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 39:17

So So, you know, I, uh, but I'm grateful, you know,

Track 1: 39:21

yeah.

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 39:21

my, my health back and I've had just a lot of opportunities to advocate. I was, uh, this past June, was able to go to Washington, D. C. to be on a policy group where we're advocating to have a low carbohydrate option added to the 2030 nutrition guidelines. Um, so, we'll see. We, we continue to, to, to advocate where we can.

Track 1: 39:43

That's a great attitude to have, um, just, you know, being open to, yeah, if you have a better cure, sure, like, let me know, like, I'll, I'll be willing to get into

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 39:53

told me they did something wacky and fixed their diabetes, I'd be like, great. Like, I have an agenda here, you know, right? Like, I honestly don't care that much what

Track 1: 40:02

yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah, if, yeah, if, yeah,

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 40:10

uh, yeah, it's very interesting. But people, nutrition certainly becomes very, um, interesting thing. It's like religion or politics, right? People to war

Track 1: 40:21

Like, yeah, it's like taking sides. No, we're not taking sides here. We're taking the side of health. Like, we want to heal, right? If you have a better solution without, you know, the use of medications or whatnot, right? I want to heal. I want to be able to, you know, live long, live a life, you know, free from pain, free from, you know, stress, anxiety, depression. Sure. Like, give me the cure. I mean, if you have... You know, there's, there's one, I saw a video online earlier and, um, it was a coach and he said somebody questioned him about, you know, what he's eating, he's eating the same thing every day. How can he eat that way? And, and his response was, Hey, you're eating the same thing every day. You're just eating cereal, right? So you're eating cereal every day, I'm eating like, I'm eating eggs every day, I'm eating steak every day. Like, they're different, but, you know, you're eating bad, I'm not, right? So, I mean, people are, people can be so dogmatic. Sometimes, right? When they think, when they think about health, and I always say I can be so blunt because I'm not out there And I would say you get out of the step out of the matrix, but who cares, right? So, um,

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 41:44

unfortunately though, when you do really get out there, you know, I'm in a health care facility right now, and um, you know, sugar addiction and carbohydrate addiction is a real thing. You know, it's uh, a lot of people, um, do not have good coping skills, and in this country we don't really recognize, I guess nowhere in the world does it really recognize as a true addiction. You know, it's everywhere. Our modern food environment, I mean, you don't even have to leave your house, you Uber Eats or Grubhub, but certainly every... grocery store, farmer's market, gas station, hospital, there's nowhere you can go where you're not going to be faced with lots of processed foods. So, trying to tell somebody struggling with that, like, hey, you really need to avoid these, like, it's in your face all the time. Like, I can't imagine if an alcoholic, like, everywhere they went, was

Track 1: 42:30

Hard. It is hard.

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 42:32

have a drink. So, it's, it's, it's not easy. You know, I definitely don't want to gloss over how challenging it can be to make changes. Um, but just like anything else, you know, it's consistent. It's habits, it's um, systems, you know, when you have systems in life, um, everything changes. So, that's kind of how I, how I live.

Track 1: 42:53

yeah. It's all about just how bad do you want it? Why do you want to change? I always say, hey, if your lifestyle is working right now, don't change anything. I mean, if you like what you see in the mirror, if you like how you feel, you feel good, means your lifestyle is working, right? But if it's not, if you have aches and pains, if you're gaining weight, if you have depression, anxiety, And you're doing the same thing over and over again, and it's not working. It's time to look at your lifestyle. It's time to look at what you're not, what you're doing wrong, right? Obviously, you can't keep going in the same direction thinking you're gonna heal, right? Um, you gotta sometimes be bold, and sometimes ask the right questions. Um, Yeah, yeah, I'll leave that there, but, uh, I want to get to talk about your new book, let's talk about it, the Fox Family Food Fight, it's a children's book, um, it's out soon, right?

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 43:54

Yes, hopefully by Monday, I, I was hoping Friday, but unfortunately it's so, I'm, but I'm thrilled. Like, I told my wife I would never write another book, just cause it's such a hard, long process, and

Track 1: 44:07

yeah,

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 44:08

just time demanding, but I, I was inspired. The FDA had announced, uh, they were releasing two medications for children with type 2 diabetes.

Track 1: 44:16

mm,

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 44:18

and I just lost it. And I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, anti medication. I certainly think they have their time and their place. But I felt like, we have a problem. We have the rates of type 2 diabetes and obesity increasing exponentially in our youth. And the solution is, let's throw a medication at it. You know,

Track 1: 44:37

mm, mhm,

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 44:38

obviously, the solution should be we need to look at what we're eating. So I decided, I'm like, yeah, it's gonna be kids, and they're gonna, these kids are gonna get diabetes. And I'm like, well, that's boring. Um, and I was on a run, and there was a woman in our town, her name is Sarah Fox, who's running for mayor. And I was like, oh, Fox, Foxes, Foxabitties. And I was like, what? And so I just, you know, went to Starbucks, started jotting down a bunch of notes, and very, very blessed that, um, there is a fam a husband and wife in the ketogenic community that offered to fund the book. I did not know how expensive, uh, getting an illustrator was. I'm in the wrong business, um, but the illustrations are beautiful. It's fully illustrated, lots of alliteration, all the foxes, you know, Freddy, Felix, Fiona.

Track 1: 45:19

love the characters,

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 45:21

they leave the forest to go to the city and they work in the Feel Good Foods factory. And there's all these Feel Good Foods, processed foods. And they're so happy, they taste so good. But, you know, what do you know, all of a sudden, you know, Papa Felix is achy and Mama is tired and then little Freddy faints and he wakes up with type 2 fox diabetes in the fox pittle.

Track 1: 45:40

that,

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 45:40

it probably won't shock you that the foxetician's advice isn't super helpful, so. So it's his story about how he, uh, regains his health and, you know, it was, it was just fun. And it was fun to like have this kind of vision and then to see it like come to life with these really

Track 1: 45:54

nice.

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 45:55

And then there's a page on the very back, uh, the very end that has just some facts and statistics. So the goal is that, you know, a kid could read it or a parent could read it to a child. Just like a Disney baby, and the kid would be like, Yay, a Freddy! And then parents would be like, Ooh, holy

Track 1: 46:09

There

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 46:10

You know, so, That's, uh, that's the goal.

Track 1: 46:14

This might go viral. I mean, you might be, you might be a pioneer.

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 46:19

Well, I hope so. You know, I, I, I really wanted to, You know, when you, when you, When you have this vision and mission, I loved writing The Dietitian's Diploma, And it's an honor that it's been successful. But, you know, Giving people a 200 page book, They're kind of like, Eh, this book will take you seven minutes to read. Like, it's very short. You know, it's a kid's book. But it's something I think people could just have on their coffee table, people kind of flip through, because it's like I said, it's really beautiful, like the pages are, it's fun, and it just has a very simple message, it's not a carnivore ketogenic book, it's just

Track 1: 46:47

Yeah.

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 46:48

quickly we can get sick by eating processed foods, you know, so, so I hope, and then you know where, I have a charity, I started the um, protein project, because it's my belief that um, specifically families with low income are really targeted by processed food companies, you know, And you go to a food bank, unfortunately a lot of the things in food banks are beans, rice, and cereal. So, I've partnered with one of our local regenerative farmers and he gives me, they tend to be like kind of wonky cuts, but you know, they're still regenerative grass fed beef at a really cheap rate. And then we donate it straight to the food pantry. And so,

Track 1: 47:25

That's nice.

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 47:26

sales of the book are going to do that. Which is good, because we're,

Track 1: 47:29

Wow.

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 47:30

donations and other things, but it's hard. You know, it's, it's, we're running out of money. Um, and I just, I just kind of keep getting as much food as I, as I can pay for, so. Um, so yeah, no, I'm honored. It's been a lot of fun. Um, you know, I said this will be my last book, but we did end it with To Be Continued, so, so maybe there'll be another Fox Family Food or Brenda, like,

Track 1: 47:52

Yeah. I, I'm looking forward to it because I have a three year old and I read her every day a book. And so this will be available online on Amazon.

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 48:04

yeah. Sorry, connection got a little weirder for a second. Yeah, so, um, it's only gonna be on, uh, Amazon. Potentially

Track 1: 48:14

Okay.

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 48:15

getting it into, like, Barnes Noble or something. Um, but, yeah, Amazon is just, in my experience, you know, some people are, If you're very anti Amazon and listening to this, please hit me up. I'd be happy to send you a copy. But, um, the fact that they can distribute worldwide has been really helpful. You know, it's kind of fun at the end of the month. You can see like, oh, someone from Germany and Japan

Track 1: 48:35

Yeah. Yeah. Send me the link right away so I can purchase one for my daughter.

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 48:42

I appreciate that. Thank you.

Track 1: 48:45

Yeah, no, I'm excited because you know, I try to teach my daughter, you know, what's healthy and what's not healthy. And it's been, you know, I'm not restricting her in by any means, but she can eat whatever she wants when she's out there. But in my house, it has to be a healing environment, right? So we don't see the same things that she sees every day at her daycare. So actually, actually one day her. Her, her daycare, uh, her daycare teacher, let's call her that, she said, I, I, I don't know what to feed her because, you know, when I try to feed her something, she says that's not healthy. I mean, he, he, he, so she's picking up things, right? And this book might, you know, be helpful.

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 49:28

Yeah, yeah, I was telling the one person said I need to get it to my daycare. I heard that's an environment that unfortunately...

Track 1: 49:34

Yeah, yeah, that, that could create some, you guys can stare up some people, right? But she's good. Right?

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 49:41

a couple of lines in there that, that was funding the book was like, are you sure you want to put this in? I mean, we take a pretty hard stab at dietitians and I'm like, yes, I do because that's what is happening. You know, we're not making stuff up or lying, but that's how we treat diabetes. You know, we treat it by just giving you medication. So, um, but that's the goal, right? The goal of anything is to get people talking, to share your story, to be like, Oh wow, like interesting.

Track 1: 50:07

yep.

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 50:08

you know, hunting, fishing, foraging, ate processed food, got sick, what, you know, hmm, like, get the wheels spinning.

Track 1: 50:15

yeah, I don't really care about the criticism because that's probably 20 percent But I only care about the 80 percent that actually comes on and you know Sometimes I don't even have to respond to like comments because some of the other people who are, you know On the carnivore diet or keto diet, they answer for me. So they're actually have my back. So I don't

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 50:34

I don't mean,

Track 1: 50:36

yeah,

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 50:37

already. Like, I don't

Track 1: 50:38

haha

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 50:38

angry people anymore. I

Track 1: 50:40

yeah,

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 50:41

media, I was very worried about it.

Track 1: 50:43

yeah, so, so, yeah, I mean, this is for the people who actually wants to get better for people who are open minded, right, about this stuff, um, great, great for children, for sure, great for my, for my daughter, that's probably, uh, she, she, she doesn't choose the books, so, I'll take advantage of that, I'll choose the books for her for now, so. And, uh, see how, where that could take me. So, uh, awesome. Um, all right. Um, thank you so much, uh, Michelle for coming on and sharing your story. Thank you for coming back on. Um, I always enjoy our conversations. Um, if you guys want to get that book, I believe it's. Should be available by by now right and the link will be down in the description box below So you guys can check that out. You can also get the dietician's dilemma on Amazon. You can check that out as well Michelle, thank you so much for coming on

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 51:43

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Track 1: 51:45

awesome. Thank you. Bye. Bye

michelle-hurn_1_11-16-2023_100103: 51:48

Yeah, I'm so glad for my family.