{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":3.66,"body":"The question I'm asking, and I"},{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":3.66,"body":"want to keep attempting to"},{"startTime":3.66,"endTime":7.5,"body":"answer, as I record these"},{"startTime":3.66,"endTime":7.5,"body":"episodes, is whether, given the"},{"startTime":7.5,"endTime":11.76,"body":"forces behind AI today, it can"},{"startTime":7.5,"endTime":11.76,"body":"be transformed or alchemized"},{"startTime":11.76,"endTime":14.88,"body":"into a force for the benefit of"},{"startTime":11.76,"endTime":14.88,"body":"the larger human and non human"},{"startTime":14.88,"endTime":18.96,"body":"world. Can AI be created or"},{"startTime":14.88,"endTime":18.96,"body":"repurposed to subvert the very"},{"startTime":18.96,"endTime":21.98,"body":"Apollonian and Windigo ethos"},{"startTime":18.96,"endTime":21.98,"body":"that it arose out of"},{"startTime":33.8,"endTime":37.34,"body":"Welcome to cosmic intelligence,"},{"startTime":33.8,"endTime":37.34,"body":"a Podcast where we explore the"},{"startTime":37.34,"endTime":40.58,"body":"intersection of philosophy"},{"startTime":37.34,"endTime":40.58,"body":"cosmology, consciousness and"},{"startTime":40.64,"endTime":43.96,"body":"emerging technologies like"},{"startTime":40.64,"endTime":43.96,"body":"artificial intelligence. If"},{"startTime":43.96,"endTime":46.9,"body":"you're new here, I'm Chad, a"},{"startTime":43.96,"endTime":46.9,"body":"philosopher, technologist,"},{"startTime":46.9,"endTime":50.32,"body":"product manager, yoga teacher"},{"startTime":46.9,"endTime":50.32,"body":"and attorney based in Los"},{"startTime":50.32,"endTime":50.92,"body":"Angeles."},{"startTime":61.12,"endTime":65.46,"body":"Can we create an AI for the"},{"startTime":61.12,"endTime":65.46,"body":"people by moving from Empire"},{"startTime":65.46,"endTime":68.94,"body":"technologies to humane"},{"startTime":65.46,"endTime":68.94,"body":"technology innovation and human"},{"startTime":68.94,"endTime":72.3,"body":"stewardship? That's what I want"},{"startTime":68.94,"endTime":72.3,"body":"to explore today on the podcast."},{"startTime":75.84,"endTime":79.56,"body":"My intention here, as always, is"},{"startTime":75.84,"endTime":79.56,"body":"to speak as honestly, directly"},{"startTime":79.56,"endTime":84.62,"body":"and humbly as I can as a decent"},{"startTime":79.56,"endTime":84.62,"body":"human being. If what I'm saying"},{"startTime":84.62,"endTime":87.8,"body":"sounds radical, it's because"},{"startTime":84.62,"endTime":87.8,"body":"that's the way the terms of the"},{"startTime":87.8,"endTime":90.74,"body":"debate have been framed by the"},{"startTime":87.8,"endTime":90.74,"body":"long standing paradigms of the"},{"startTime":90.74,"endTime":94.22,"body":"subject object, split and"},{"startTime":90.74,"endTime":94.22,"body":"frantic, endless growth for its"},{"startTime":94.22,"endTime":100.16,"body":"own sake. In my ongoing"},{"startTime":94.22,"endTime":100.16,"body":"exploration of what's rotten in"},{"startTime":100.16,"endTime":102.76,"body":"Silicon Valley tech innovation"},{"startTime":100.16,"endTime":102.76,"body":"and the ideologies that are"},{"startTime":102.76,"endTime":106.24,"body":"driving that innovation. Last"},{"startTime":102.76,"endTime":106.24,"body":"time I talked about the pandemic"},{"startTime":106.24,"endTime":109.54,"body":"of what I call the Apollonian"},{"startTime":106.24,"endTime":109.54,"body":"mind virus, this tendency"},{"startTime":109.54,"endTime":112.84,"body":"throughout the modern world to"},{"startTime":109.54,"endTime":112.84,"body":"favor cold, disembodied, hyper"},{"startTime":112.84,"endTime":116.5,"body":"rationality and cognitive"},{"startTime":112.84,"endTime":116.5,"body":"intelligence over all other ways"},{"startTime":116.5,"endTime":119.68,"body":"of knowing and being, over"},{"startTime":116.5,"endTime":119.68,"body":"intuition, emotional"},{"startTime":119.68,"endTime":123.42,"body":"intelligence, embodiment and"},{"startTime":119.68,"endTime":123.42,"body":"wisdom. This Apollonian"},{"startTime":123.42,"endTime":127.08,"body":"orientation towards nature has"},{"startTime":123.42,"endTime":127.08,"body":"ushered in what Sam Altman has"},{"startTime":127.08,"endTime":132.24,"body":"dubbed the intelligence age. So"},{"startTime":127.08,"endTime":132.24,"body":"Apollonian for me, describes the"},{"startTime":132.54,"endTime":135.3,"body":"worldview and the theories of"},{"startTime":132.54,"endTime":135.3,"body":"intelligence that are behind the"},{"startTime":135.3,"endTime":140.18,"body":"current approaches to AI today I"},{"startTime":135.3,"endTime":140.18,"body":"explore an adjacent pandemic of"},{"startTime":140.18,"endTime":144.38,"body":"the mind, or sickness of spirit"},{"startTime":140.18,"endTime":144.38,"body":"that is insatiable, extractive"},{"startTime":144.38,"endTime":149.9,"body":"and exploitative, the Hungry"},{"startTime":144.38,"endTime":149.9,"body":"Ghost of the Wendigo. I argue"},{"startTime":149.9,"endTime":153.5,"body":"that current approaches to AI"},{"startTime":149.9,"endTime":153.5,"body":"are largely the result of these"},{"startTime":153.5,"endTime":157.16,"body":"two features of the modern"},{"startTime":153.5,"endTime":157.16,"body":"Western ethos, the interwoven"},{"startTime":157.16,"endTime":160.84,"body":"helix of the Apollonian mind and"},{"startTime":157.16,"endTime":160.84,"body":"the Windigo soul sickness. I"},{"startTime":161.56,"endTime":164.32,"body":"will then close this episode by"},{"startTime":161.56,"endTime":164.32,"body":"beginning to explore whether"},{"startTime":164.32,"endTime":167.02,"body":"there is a better way to"},{"startTime":164.32,"endTime":167.02,"body":"innovate and evolve."},{"startTime":167.02,"endTime":171.46,"body":"Collectively. As a reminder for"},{"startTime":167.02,"endTime":171.46,"body":"those who are new, here, I am"},{"startTime":171.46,"endTime":173.92,"body":"examining the Silicon Valley"},{"startTime":171.46,"endTime":173.92,"body":"ideologies that are driving"},{"startTime":173.92,"endTime":176.14,"body":"artificial intelligence"},{"startTime":173.92,"endTime":176.14,"body":"innovation today, because I"},{"startTime":176.14,"endTime":179.8,"body":"think there is a better way to"},{"startTime":176.14,"endTime":179.8,"body":"build an engine for creating a"},{"startTime":179.8,"endTime":184.86,"body":"more human future. I agree with"},{"startTime":179.8,"endTime":184.86,"body":"anthropic CEO and founder Dario"},{"startTime":184.92,"endTime":189.9,"body":"Amadei that AI should be a force"},{"startTime":184.92,"endTime":189.9,"body":"for human progress. I just think"},{"startTime":189.9,"endTime":192.54,"body":"the word human should represent"},{"startTime":189.9,"endTime":192.54,"body":"all of humanity that's alive"},{"startTime":192.54,"endTime":196.8,"body":"today. To be explicit, the"},{"startTime":192.54,"endTime":196.8,"body":"questions I am attempting to"},{"startTime":196.8,"endTime":200.36,"body":"answer on this podcast and on my"},{"startTime":196.8,"endTime":200.36,"body":"sub stack and on my YouTube"},{"startTime":200.36,"endTime":204.62,"body":"channel are the following, first"},{"startTime":200.36,"endTime":204.62,"body":"in light of the fact that"},{"startTime":204.62,"endTime":208.58,"body":"technology innovation is the"},{"startTime":204.62,"endTime":208.58,"body":"perfection of our Apollonian"},{"startTime":208.58,"endTime":212.36,"body":"worldview and a voracious,"},{"startTime":208.58,"endTime":212.36,"body":"extractive colonialist force"},{"startTime":212.36,"endTime":215.48,"body":"that I and others call the"},{"startTime":212.36,"endTime":215.48,"body":"Windigo, I'll talk about that"},{"startTime":215.48,"endTime":219.56,"body":"more in a second. Can we find a"},{"startTime":215.48,"endTime":219.56,"body":"way to make technologies like aI"},{"startTime":219.74,"endTime":222.94,"body":"serve humanity rather than"},{"startTime":219.74,"endTime":222.94,"body":"forcing humanity to be more"},{"startTime":222.94,"endTime":228.22,"body":"machine like second is an"},{"startTime":222.94,"endTime":228.22,"body":"evolutionary, liberatory and"},{"startTime":228.22,"endTime":230.68,"body":"humane interplay between"},{"startTime":228.22,"endTime":230.68,"body":"conscious technologies like"},{"startTime":230.68,"endTime":234.58,"body":"kriya and meditation and"},{"startTime":230.68,"endTime":234.58,"body":"material technologies like AI"},{"startTime":234.58,"endTime":239.14,"body":"and the internet. Possible."},{"startTime":234.58,"endTime":239.14,"body":"Third and finally, how can we"},{"startTime":239.14,"endTime":242.28,"body":"become more fully human"},{"startTime":239.14,"endTime":242.28,"body":"alongside technological"},{"startTime":242.28,"endTime":245.1,"body":"innovation, instead of"},{"startTime":242.28,"endTime":245.1,"body":"outsourcing our evolution to"},{"startTime":245.22,"endTime":249.12,"body":"machines, all of these questions"},{"startTime":245.22,"endTime":249.12,"body":"arose within me in a single"},{"startTime":249.12,"endTime":252.84,"body":"moment during a conscious AI"},{"startTime":249.12,"endTime":252.84,"body":"retreat in Northern California"},{"startTime":252.84,"endTime":256.08,"body":"this year, when I realized in"},{"startTime":252.84,"endTime":256.08,"body":"horror that a majority of the"},{"startTime":256.08,"endTime":260.1,"body":"attendees were perfectly willing"},{"startTime":256.08,"endTime":260.1,"body":"to outsource their Evolution to"},{"startTime":260.1,"endTime":263.6,"body":"machines to see humans as mere"},{"startTime":260.1,"endTime":263.6,"body":"algorithms and to follow the"},{"startTime":263.6,"endTime":267.5,"body":"current extractive approach to"},{"startTime":263.6,"endTime":267.5,"body":"AI innovation wherever it leads,"},{"startTime":268.1,"endTime":271.64,"body":"if these self styled Buddhists"},{"startTime":268.1,"endTime":271.64,"body":"and conscious technologists with"},{"startTime":271.64,"endTime":275.06,"body":"good intentions are afflicted"},{"startTime":271.64,"endTime":275.06,"body":"with the Windigo sickness I"},{"startTime":275.06,"endTime":278.96,"body":"describe in a second, what can"},{"startTime":275.06,"endTime":278.96,"body":"we do? So this episode is"},{"startTime":278.96,"endTime":282.16,"body":"another step toward answering"},{"startTime":278.96,"endTime":282.16,"body":"the many questions that arose at"},{"startTime":282.16,"endTime":285.16,"body":"that retreat, and is primarily"},{"startTime":282.16,"endTime":285.16,"body":"focused on the first one,"},{"startTime":285.52,"endTime":288.58,"body":"addressing this Windigo mindset"},{"startTime":285.52,"endTime":288.58,"body":"that drives technology"},{"startTime":288.58,"endTime":296.5,"body":"innovation today. Okay, so what"},{"startTime":288.58,"endTime":296.5,"body":"is the Windigo as an American"},{"startTime":296.5,"endTime":299.92,"body":"man of European descent, I am"},{"startTime":296.5,"endTime":299.92,"body":"intensely curious about why."},{"startTime":300.36,"endTime":303.66,"body":"Alongside the scientific and"},{"startTime":300.36,"endTime":303.66,"body":"industrial revolutions, the"},{"startTime":303.66,"endTime":307.98,"body":"nation state, civil and common"},{"startTime":303.66,"endTime":307.98,"body":"law and capitalism, the lasting"},{"startTime":307.98,"endTime":313.26,"body":"legacy of Europe is colonialism,"},{"startTime":307.98,"endTime":313.26,"body":"or maybe alongside is the wrong"},{"startTime":313.26,"endTime":316.8,"body":"word. Maybe those are all"},{"startTime":313.26,"endTime":316.8,"body":"various strands of a unified"},{"startTime":316.8,"endTime":320.48,"body":"force or ethos. After all, they"},{"startTime":316.8,"endTime":320.48,"body":"are all instruments of"},{"startTime":320.48,"endTime":324.14,"body":"distancing the human from nature"},{"startTime":320.48,"endTime":324.14,"body":"and exerting absolute control"},{"startTime":324.44,"endTime":328.22,"body":"over the natural world, of"},{"startTime":324.44,"endTime":328.22,"body":"exerting what Joanna Macy called"},{"startTime":328.22,"endTime":333.14,"body":"power over Native American"},{"startTime":328.22,"endTime":333.14,"body":"writers like Jack D Forbes and"},{"startTime":333.14,"endTime":336.38,"body":"Robin wall Kimmerer call this"},{"startTime":333.14,"endTime":336.38,"body":"extractive consumptive force"},{"startTime":336.38,"endTime":341.08,"body":"behind colonialism. The Whitey"},{"startTime":336.38,"endTime":341.08,"body":"go or windy go after an"},{"startTime":341.14,"endTime":344.68,"body":"Algonquin myth about a"},{"startTime":341.14,"endTime":344.68,"body":"voracious, insatiable ghoul who"},{"startTime":344.68,"endTime":347.56,"body":"wanders the world, devouring"},{"startTime":344.68,"endTime":347.56,"body":"everything and everyone it"},{"startTime":347.56,"endTime":351.88,"body":"encounters, for these Native"},{"startTime":347.56,"endTime":351.88,"body":"American thinkers and activists,"},{"startTime":351.88,"endTime":355.66,"body":"this Wendigo force is an"},{"startTime":351.88,"endTime":355.66,"body":"epidemic of the mind, or"},{"startTime":355.9,"endTime":360.4,"body":"Spiritual sickness characterized"},{"startTime":355.9,"endTime":360.4,"body":"by insatiable greed, aggression,"},{"startTime":360.46,"endTime":364.98,"body":"domination and objectification."},{"startTime":360.46,"endTime":364.98,"body":"Author Paul Levy has also"},{"startTime":364.98,"endTime":371.58,"body":"written about the Indigo as a"},{"startTime":364.98,"endTime":371.58,"body":"mind virus and a pandemic. So"},{"startTime":371.58,"endTime":375.6,"body":"you know, a voracious,"},{"startTime":371.58,"endTime":375.6,"body":"insatiable, extractive force, I"},{"startTime":375.6,"endTime":378.78,"body":"think, also describes the ethos"},{"startTime":375.6,"endTime":378.78,"body":"behind artificial intelligence"},{"startTime":378.78,"endTime":383.42,"body":"innovation pretty accurately. In"},{"startTime":378.78,"endTime":383.42,"body":"other words, where AI itself is"},{"startTime":383.72,"endTime":387.02,"body":"a sort of echo of the Apollonian"},{"startTime":383.72,"endTime":387.02,"body":"mind that I talked about last"},{"startTime":387.02,"endTime":390.8,"body":"time, this unpredictable,"},{"startTime":387.02,"endTime":390.8,"body":"schizophrenic savant, the"},{"startTime":390.8,"endTime":395.54,"body":"arrogant, bellicose ethos behind"},{"startTime":390.8,"endTime":395.54,"body":"it is the Windigo, this hungry"},{"startTime":395.54,"endTime":398.9,"body":"ghost of unbounded extraction"},{"startTime":395.54,"endTime":398.9,"body":"and consumption for its own"},{"startTime":398.9,"endTime":403.06,"body":"sake. One of the books that got"},{"startTime":398.9,"endTime":403.06,"body":"me thinking about all this this"},{"startTime":403.06,"endTime":407.32,"body":"year was empire of AI by Karen"},{"startTime":403.06,"endTime":407.32,"body":"Howe. In the book, Karen Howe"},{"startTime":407.32,"endTime":410.62,"body":"argues that major AI companies"},{"startTime":407.32,"endTime":410.62,"body":"operate much like the"},{"startTime":410.62,"endTime":414.58,"body":"imperialist empires of the age"},{"startTime":410.62,"endTime":414.58,"body":"of discovery by engaging in"},{"startTime":414.58,"endTime":418.54,"body":"digital colonialism, extraction"},{"startTime":414.58,"endTime":418.54,"body":"of resources, exploitation of"},{"startTime":418.54,"endTime":421.38,"body":"labor, and the concentration of"},{"startTime":418.54,"endTime":421.38,"body":"power and wealth under a"},{"startTime":421.38,"endTime":425.52,"body":"unifying, self justifying"},{"startTime":421.38,"endTime":425.52,"body":"ideology. She doesn't call it"},{"startTime":425.52,"endTime":428.16,"body":"the Windigo, but in her book,"},{"startTime":425.52,"endTime":428.16,"body":"she thoroughly documents the"},{"startTime":428.16,"endTime":432.66,"body":"symptoms of this sickness among"},{"startTime":428.16,"endTime":432.66,"body":"AI companies in terms of"},{"startTime":432.66,"endTime":435.72,"body":"extraction. Howe shows in her"},{"startTime":432.66,"endTime":435.72,"body":"book that large language models"},{"startTime":435.72,"endTime":440.18,"body":"like Chad, GPT or Claude require"},{"startTime":435.72,"endTime":440.18,"body":"enormous physical resources in"},{"startTime":440.18,"endTime":443.6,"body":"the form of energy and clean"},{"startTime":440.18,"endTime":443.6,"body":"water, to the detriment of local"},{"startTime":443.6,"endTime":446.66,"body":"ecosystems and communities, and"},{"startTime":443.6,"endTime":446.66,"body":"this urgent, voracious"},{"startTime":446.66,"endTime":450.26,"body":"consumption of resources by"},{"startTime":446.66,"endTime":450.26,"body":"multiple companies is justified"},{"startTime":450.26,"endTime":453.02,"body":"by what is primarily an"},{"startTime":450.26,"endTime":453.02,"body":"unfounded promise of future"},{"startTime":453.02,"endTime":459.26,"body":"benefit. After all, llms are not"},{"startTime":453.02,"endTime":459.26,"body":"likely to lead to AGI or super"},{"startTime":459.26,"endTime":462.76,"body":"intelligence, as I've talked"},{"startTime":459.26,"endTime":462.76,"body":"about before, and have so far"},{"startTime":462.76,"endTime":466.84,"body":"offered minimal benefits for"},{"startTime":462.76,"endTime":466.84,"body":"customers and companies who are"},{"startTime":466.84,"endTime":469.84,"body":"using it, especially in"},{"startTime":466.84,"endTime":469.84,"body":"proportion to the resources that"},{"startTime":469.84,"endTime":474.04,"body":"are required. Not only that, but"},{"startTime":469.84,"endTime":474.04,"body":"these AI systems are trained on"},{"startTime":474.04,"endTime":477.04,"body":"the creative work of millions of"},{"startTime":474.04,"endTime":477.04,"body":"humans in an extractive way,"},{"startTime":477.4,"endTime":479.92,"body":"ignoring, for example,"},{"startTime":477.4,"endTime":479.92,"body":"intellectual property rights, to"},{"startTime":480.16,"endTime":483.18,"body":"put it more plainly, the"},{"startTime":480.16,"endTime":483.18,"body":"unrealized promise of super"},{"startTime":483.18,"endTime":487.74,"body":"intelligence and some future"},{"startTime":483.18,"endTime":487.74,"body":"automation Utopia has fed a self"},{"startTime":487.74,"endTime":490.98,"body":"fueling investing frenzy where"},{"startTime":487.74,"endTime":490.98,"body":"AI companies are round tripping"},{"startTime":490.98,"endTime":495.0,"body":"over a trillion dollars."},{"startTime":490.98,"endTime":495.0,"body":"Furthermore, as Howe illustrates"},{"startTime":495.0,"endTime":498.48,"body":"in her book, AI models are"},{"startTime":495.0,"endTime":498.48,"body":"primarily trained on the hidden,"},{"startTime":498.48,"endTime":502.28,"body":"cheap and traumatizing labor of"},{"startTime":498.48,"endTime":502.28,"body":"labelers and content moderators"},{"startTime":502.28,"endTime":506.12,"body":"in the Global South, workers in"},{"startTime":502.28,"endTime":506.12,"body":"places like Kenya, Venezuela,"},{"startTime":506.12,"endTime":509.24,"body":"India and the Philippines are"},{"startTime":506.12,"endTime":509.24,"body":"treated as undervalued and"},{"startTime":509.24,"endTime":513.26,"body":"expendable by the AI companies."},{"startTime":509.24,"endTime":513.26,"body":"All these externalities are"},{"startTime":513.26,"endTime":517.22,"body":"hidden behind a smoke screen of"},{"startTime":513.26,"endTime":517.22,"body":"utopian visions and economic"},{"startTime":517.22,"endTime":520.72,"body":"necessity, where the good guys"},{"startTime":517.22,"endTime":520.72,"body":"of Silicon Valley must defeat"},{"startTime":521.02,"endTime":524.26,"body":"the bad guys in China in this"},{"startTime":521.02,"endTime":524.26,"body":"kind of zero sum game you"},{"startTime":545.88,"endTime":550.56,"body":"so inspired by the work of"},{"startTime":545.88,"endTime":550.56,"body":"Forbes and Kimmerer and how I"},{"startTime":550.56,"endTime":553.44,"body":"have come to see the Silicon"},{"startTime":550.56,"endTime":553.44,"body":"Valley innovation ethos as"},{"startTime":553.44,"endTime":556.86,"body":"deeply Windigo. In other words,"},{"startTime":553.44,"endTime":556.86,"body":"technology innovation today is"},{"startTime":556.86,"endTime":559.74,"body":"driven in large part by this"},{"startTime":556.86,"endTime":559.74,"body":"kind of like mental illness or"},{"startTime":559.74,"endTime":563.24,"body":"spiritual sickness. What else"},{"startTime":559.74,"endTime":563.24,"body":"would explain the release of an"},{"startTime":563.24,"endTime":567.5,"body":"app like open AI Sora or Marc"},{"startTime":563.24,"endTime":567.5,"body":"andreessen's Techno optimist"},{"startTime":567.5,"endTime":570.44,"body":"manifesto, or Peter thiel's"},{"startTime":567.5,"endTime":570.44,"body":"rants about the arrival of the"},{"startTime":570.44,"endTime":574.82,"body":"Antichrist and not wanting"},{"startTime":570.44,"endTime":574.82,"body":"humanity to survive. It's no"},{"startTime":574.82,"endTime":578.24,"body":"accident that Peter Thiel is"},{"startTime":574.82,"endTime":578.24,"body":"describing opposition to the"},{"startTime":578.54,"endTime":582.76,"body":"Windigo essentially as the"},{"startTime":578.54,"endTime":582.76,"body":"Antichrist. These are archetypal"},{"startTime":582.76,"endTime":585.58,"body":"forces that have been at odds"},{"startTime":582.76,"endTime":585.58,"body":"ever since the dawn of"},{"startTime":585.58,"endTime":589.54,"body":"civilization. But to the Windigo"},{"startTime":585.58,"endTime":589.54,"body":"mind slowing down to regulate"},{"startTime":589.54,"endTime":592.48,"body":"technology or consider the needs"},{"startTime":589.54,"endTime":592.48,"body":"of the earth and all the people"},{"startTime":592.48,"endTime":596.5,"body":"on it stands in opposition to"},{"startTime":592.48,"endTime":596.5,"body":"thiel's mechanistic messianic"},{"startTime":596.56,"endTime":600.72,"body":"mission other billionaires like"},{"startTime":596.56,"endTime":600.72,"body":"Elon Musk and. Mark Zuckerberg"},{"startTime":600.72,"endTime":604.44,"body":"are also infected by this"},{"startTime":600.72,"endTime":604.44,"body":"Windigo sickness. Why else would"},{"startTime":604.44,"endTime":607.62,"body":"billions of dollars not be"},{"startTime":604.44,"endTime":607.62,"body":"enough to satisfy them? Why else"},{"startTime":607.62,"endTime":610.56,"body":"would they envision a mechanical"},{"startTime":607.62,"endTime":610.56,"body":"future where humans exist only"},{"startTime":610.56,"endTime":613.86,"body":"as simulations in the cloud, and"},{"startTime":610.56,"endTime":613.86,"body":"why would they behave like"},{"startTime":613.86,"endTime":618.54,"body":"sociopaths, completely lacking"},{"startTime":613.86,"endTime":618.54,"body":"in humility and empathy, whereas"},{"startTime":618.54,"endTime":621.68,"body":"the hyper rational, Apollonian"},{"startTime":618.54,"endTime":621.68,"body":"mind is a legitimate way of"},{"startTime":621.68,"endTime":623.84,"body":"approaching the world, so long"},{"startTime":621.68,"endTime":623.84,"body":"as it's balanced by the"},{"startTime":623.84,"endTime":628.28,"body":"creative, intuitive Dionysian,"},{"startTime":623.84,"endTime":628.28,"body":"this Indigo tendency is nothing"},{"startTime":628.28,"endTime":631.52,"body":"more than a sickness. There is"},{"startTime":628.28,"endTime":631.52,"body":"nothing redeeming about the"},{"startTime":631.52,"endTime":637.16,"body":"Windigo mentality. I'm so"},{"startTime":631.52,"endTime":637.16,"body":"curious like, why are we like"},{"startTime":637.16,"endTime":642.52,"body":"this? As Robin wall Kimmerer"},{"startTime":637.16,"endTime":642.52,"body":"reminds us this Indigo tendency"},{"startTime":642.52,"endTime":646.66,"body":"lives within each of us, but"},{"startTime":642.52,"endTime":646.66,"body":"gazing back over human history,"},{"startTime":646.66,"endTime":650.2,"body":"it seems to have metastasized"},{"startTime":646.66,"endTime":650.2,"body":"primarily in Europe and then in"},{"startTime":650.2,"endTime":654.22,"body":"the European colonies. So where"},{"startTime":650.2,"endTime":654.22,"body":"did this European Windigo come"},{"startTime":654.22,"endTime":657.1,"body":"from? Like? Why was Europe so"},{"startTime":654.22,"endTime":657.1,"body":"industrious, belligerent and"},{"startTime":657.1,"endTime":661.08,"body":"colonialist for so long? There"},{"startTime":657.1,"endTime":661.08,"body":"are a number of sort of"},{"startTime":661.08,"endTime":665.7,"body":"interlocking factors that kind"},{"startTime":661.08,"endTime":665.7,"body":"of led to this Windigo mentality"},{"startTime":665.7,"endTime":669.06,"body":"in Europe over the centuries."},{"startTime":665.7,"endTime":669.06,"body":"Scholars think it was a"},{"startTime":669.06,"endTime":673.02,"body":"combination of essentially like"},{"startTime":669.06,"endTime":673.02,"body":"ecological precarity, like"},{"startTime":673.02,"endTime":677.7,"body":"deforestation and these cycles"},{"startTime":673.02,"endTime":677.7,"body":"of drought followed by harvest"},{"startTime":677.7,"endTime":682.64,"body":"followed by drought, but also"},{"startTime":677.7,"endTime":682.64,"body":"this kind of othering, you know,"},{"startTime":682.64,"endTime":686.9,"body":"the the viewing of people who"},{"startTime":682.64,"endTime":686.9,"body":"are not Greek or Roman as"},{"startTime":686.9,"endTime":690.5,"body":"barbarians, the ways that wheat"},{"startTime":686.9,"endTime":690.5,"body":"farming led to rapidly growing"},{"startTime":690.5,"endTime":694.34,"body":"populations who developed"},{"startTime":690.5,"endTime":694.34,"body":"standing armies with access to"},{"startTime":694.34,"endTime":697.82,"body":"bronze and then and then"},{"startTime":694.34,"endTime":697.82,"body":"eventually iron. In other words,"},{"startTime":697.82,"endTime":700.78,"body":"the causes were sort of"},{"startTime":697.82,"endTime":700.78,"body":"environmental, cultural,"},{"startTime":700.78,"endTime":705.34,"body":"political, philosophical and"},{"startTime":700.78,"endTime":705.34,"body":"technological. So these factors"},{"startTime":705.34,"endTime":708.22,"body":"are all interwoven, and it's"},{"startTime":705.34,"endTime":708.22,"body":"hard to point to just one kind"},{"startTime":708.22,"endTime":712.0,"body":"of spark or original sin. You"},{"startTime":708.22,"endTime":712.0,"body":"could say, for example,"},{"startTime":712.3,"endTime":716.02,"body":"deforestation led to soil"},{"startTime":712.3,"endTime":716.02,"body":"erosion, which then created"},{"startTime":716.02,"endTime":719.32,"body":"these endless cycles of scarcity"},{"startTime":716.02,"endTime":719.32,"body":"and starvation, and that"},{"startTime":719.32,"endTime":722.94,"body":"justified seeking more natural"},{"startTime":719.32,"endTime":722.94,"body":"resources beyond the borders of"},{"startTime":722.94,"endTime":727.08,"body":"your country. This happened in"},{"startTime":722.94,"endTime":727.08,"body":"primarily Greece and Rome, but"},{"startTime":727.08,"endTime":729.42,"body":"this deforestation was the"},{"startTime":727.08,"endTime":729.42,"body":"result of the need for raw"},{"startTime":729.42,"endTime":733.14,"body":"materials for shipbuilding and"},{"startTime":729.42,"endTime":733.14,"body":"metallurgy. So it's kind of a"},{"startTime":733.14,"endTime":737.28,"body":"vicious cycle. But if I had to"},{"startTime":733.14,"endTime":737.28,"body":"point to one cause for this"},{"startTime":737.28,"endTime":741.74,"body":"Wendigo illness, I think it's"},{"startTime":737.28,"endTime":741.74,"body":"this idea of civilization versus"},{"startTime":741.92,"endTime":746.42,"body":"wild nature and the savage"},{"startTime":741.92,"endTime":746.42,"body":"other. Although Jack Forbes"},{"startTime":746.42,"endTime":749.48,"body":"points out that the Windigo"},{"startTime":746.42,"endTime":749.48,"body":"originated with the Egyptians,"},{"startTime":749.48,"endTime":752.48,"body":"Babylonians, Assyrians and"},{"startTime":749.48,"endTime":752.48,"body":"Persians, it was the post"},{"startTime":752.48,"endTime":755.6,"body":"Socratic Greeks in particular"},{"startTime":752.48,"endTime":755.6,"body":"who perfected this othering,"},{"startTime":756.32,"endTime":759.38,"body":"being as they were, obsessed"},{"startTime":756.32,"endTime":759.38,"body":"with reason, order, law and"},{"startTime":759.38,"endTime":763.0,"body":"control the Greek city and the"},{"startTime":759.38,"endTime":763.0,"body":"cultivated field were"},{"startTime":763.0,"endTime":767.02,"body":"reflections of this Apollonian"},{"startTime":763.0,"endTime":767.02,"body":"kind of Greek orientation. In"},{"startTime":767.02,"endTime":770.14,"body":"contrast, the wild forest"},{"startTime":767.02,"endTime":770.14,"body":"represented to the ancient"},{"startTime":770.14,"endTime":774.04,"body":"Greeks the dark, threatening"},{"startTime":770.14,"endTime":774.04,"body":"other containing these chaotic"},{"startTime":774.04,"endTime":777.94,"body":"natural and supernatural"},{"startTime":774.04,"endTime":777.94,"body":"dangers, like wolves, bandits,"},{"startTime":777.94,"endTime":783.0,"body":"barbarians, monsters and the"},{"startTime":777.94,"endTime":783.0,"body":"Dionysian satyrs and mateds"},{"startTime":783.42,"endTime":787.02,"body":"indulging in debaucherous"},{"startTime":783.42,"endTime":787.02,"body":"ecstatic rituals. Oh, my,"},{"startTime":788.1,"endTime":791.34,"body":"speaking of barbarians, the"},{"startTime":788.1,"endTime":791.34,"body":"Greek word Barbaros was"},{"startTime":791.34,"endTime":794.28,"body":"originally a neutral term used"},{"startTime":791.34,"endTime":794.28,"body":"to describe anyone who didn't"},{"startTime":794.28,"endTime":797.4,"body":"speak Greek. Basically foreign"},{"startTime":794.28,"endTime":797.4,"body":"speech to the Greek sounded like"},{"startTime":797.46,"endTime":800.9,"body":"bar, bar, bar. You know, so, so"},{"startTime":797.46,"endTime":800.9,"body":"barbarian, barbarian. So"},{"startTime":801.02,"endTime":803.78,"body":"initially it was an it was a"},{"startTime":801.02,"endTime":803.78,"body":"neutral term, but this changed"},{"startTime":803.78,"endTime":807.14,"body":"dramatically in the fifth"},{"startTime":803.78,"endTime":807.14,"body":"century BC, with the Greco"},{"startTime":807.14,"endTime":811.4,"body":"Persian Wars, suddenly the Greek"},{"startTime":807.14,"endTime":811.4,"body":"identity became that of a"},{"startTime":811.4,"endTime":815.12,"body":"sophisticated, liberated people"},{"startTime":811.4,"endTime":815.12,"body":"living in a simple, austere"},{"startTime":815.12,"endTime":819.26,"body":"democracy, in stark contrast"},{"startTime":815.12,"endTime":819.26,"body":"with the supposedly decadent yet"},{"startTime":819.26,"endTime":823.12,"body":"savage tyranny of the Persian"},{"startTime":819.26,"endTime":823.12,"body":"Empire, and then, as the Romans"},{"startTime":823.12,"endTime":826.12,"body":"took over as the dominant"},{"startTime":823.12,"endTime":826.12,"body":"European empire, they borrowed"},{"startTime":826.12,"endTime":829.18,"body":"this concept of the barbarian as"},{"startTime":826.12,"endTime":829.18,"body":"an instrument of Imperial"},{"startTime":829.18,"endTime":832.48,"body":"propaganda justifying the"},{"startTime":829.18,"endTime":832.48,"body":"violent conquest of the"},{"startTime":832.84,"endTime":837.52,"body":"supposedly savage and lawless"},{"startTime":832.84,"endTime":837.52,"body":"Gauls, Celts, Iberians and"},{"startTime":837.52,"endTime":841.74,"body":"German tribes. The Romans saw it"},{"startTime":837.52,"endTime":841.74,"body":"as their duty to bring peace,"},{"startTime":841.8,"endTime":845.28,"body":"order and civilization, a sort"},{"startTime":841.8,"endTime":845.28,"body":"of kind of Pax Romana to the"},{"startTime":845.28,"endTime":848.82,"body":"rest of the world. In ancient"},{"startTime":845.28,"endTime":848.82,"body":"Europe, savagely installing"},{"startTime":848.82,"endTime":852.3,"body":"peace outside one's territory"},{"startTime":848.82,"endTime":852.3,"body":"was seen as a form of"},{"startTime":852.42,"endTime":856.92,"body":"civilization. And how we begin"},{"startTime":852.42,"endTime":856.92,"body":"to understand Mark Zuckerberg"},{"startTime":856.92,"endTime":861.86,"body":"and Elon Musk's fascination with"},{"startTime":856.92,"endTime":861.86,"body":"ancient Rome and the larger Rome"},{"startTime":861.86,"endTime":866.06,"body":"bro phenomenon, and thus began"},{"startTime":861.86,"endTime":866.06,"body":"the long standing practice of"},{"startTime":866.06,"endTime":869.36,"body":"othering and projection, where"},{"startTime":866.06,"endTime":869.36,"body":"every accusation is a"},{"startTime":869.36,"endTime":874.88,"body":"confession, an unconscious habit"},{"startTime":869.36,"endTime":874.88,"body":"perfected by a maga today, for"},{"startTime":874.88,"endTime":878.42,"body":"those afflicted with the Wendigo"},{"startTime":874.88,"endTime":878.42,"body":"sickness, violent consumption of"},{"startTime":878.42,"endTime":883.54,"body":"land and exploitation of labor"},{"startTime":878.42,"endTime":883.54,"body":"is civilization and progress,"},{"startTime":883.6,"endTime":886.0,"body":"whereas the reciprocal,"},{"startTime":883.6,"endTime":886.0,"body":"sustainable lifestyles of"},{"startTime":886.0,"endTime":890.02,"body":"indigenous people is"},{"startTime":886.0,"endTime":890.02,"body":"pathologized as barbaric, savage"},{"startTime":890.02,"endTime":894.22,"body":"and primitive. The savages are"},{"startTime":890.02,"endTime":894.22,"body":"accused of practicing human"},{"startTime":894.22,"endTime":897.82,"body":"sacrifice or being cannibals,"},{"startTime":894.22,"endTime":897.82,"body":"while the civilized slaughter"},{"startTime":897.82,"endTime":900.72,"body":"untold millions of indigenous"},{"startTime":897.82,"endTime":900.72,"body":"across the globe. Job in the"},{"startTime":900.72,"endTime":904.86,"body":"name of civilized European"},{"startTime":900.72,"endTime":904.86,"body":"nations, Forbes pointed out the"},{"startTime":904.86,"endTime":908.7,"body":"hypocrisy of his attitude,"},{"startTime":904.86,"endTime":908.7,"body":"saying, few, if any, societies"},{"startTime":908.7,"endTime":912.18,"body":"on the face of the earth have"},{"startTime":908.7,"endTime":912.18,"body":"been as avaricious, cruel,"},{"startTime":912.18,"endTime":915.9,"body":"violent and aggressive as have"},{"startTime":912.18,"endTime":915.9,"body":"certain European populations."},{"startTime":918.54,"endTime":922.04,"body":"The rise of the Windigo was also"},{"startTime":918.54,"endTime":922.04,"body":"an accident of geography,"},{"startTime":922.46,"endTime":925.4,"body":"because of its steep, rocky"},{"startTime":922.46,"endTime":925.4,"body":"landscape and intensely hot and"},{"startTime":925.4,"endTime":928.7,"body":"dry summers, the Mediterranean"},{"startTime":925.4,"endTime":928.7,"body":"basin is especially vulnerable"},{"startTime":928.7,"endTime":932.54,"body":"to deforestation once the trees"},{"startTime":928.7,"endTime":932.54,"body":"covering a hillside are felled,"},{"startTime":932.9,"endTime":936.26,"body":"the sun bakes the soil into a"},{"startTime":932.9,"endTime":936.26,"body":"hard crust, then the winter"},{"startTime":936.26,"endTime":939.56,"body":"rains hammer this crust, rushing"},{"startTime":936.26,"endTime":939.56,"body":"over the surface instead of"},{"startTime":939.56,"endTime":943.96,"body":"being absorbed. So then plowing"},{"startTime":939.56,"endTime":943.96,"body":"and overgrazing make this worse."},{"startTime":944.38,"endTime":946.66,"body":"In a way, it was this vicious"},{"startTime":944.38,"endTime":946.66,"body":"cycle that the spreading"},{"startTime":946.66,"endTime":950.38,"body":"civilization never recovered"},{"startTime":946.66,"endTime":950.38,"body":"from because of the relentless"},{"startTime":950.38,"endTime":953.14,"body":"pressures of a growing"},{"startTime":950.38,"endTime":953.14,"body":"population and the need for fuel"},{"startTime":953.14,"endTime":956.5,"body":"and building materials."},{"startTime":953.14,"endTime":956.5,"body":"Deforestation only accelerated"},{"startTime":956.5,"endTime":962.64,"body":"across Europe in the Middle"},{"startTime":956.5,"endTime":962.64,"body":"Ages, by 1086, only 15% of"},{"startTime":962.64,"endTime":966.6,"body":"England was wooded on the eve of"},{"startTime":962.64,"endTime":966.6,"body":"the Black Death. A few centuries"},{"startTime":966.6,"endTime":971.94,"body":"later, that figure had plummeted"},{"startTime":966.6,"endTime":971.94,"body":"to 6% by the 14th century, only"},{"startTime":971.94,"endTime":975.36,"body":"10% of Europe's land was"},{"startTime":971.94,"endTime":975.36,"body":"forested, and this then led"},{"startTime":975.36,"endTime":977.7,"body":"England and other parts of"},{"startTime":975.36,"endTime":977.7,"body":"Europe to switch to coal as a"},{"startTime":977.7,"endTime":980.6,"body":"source for fuel, which then led"},{"startTime":977.7,"endTime":980.6,"body":"to worsening pollution and so"},{"startTime":980.6,"endTime":984.32,"body":"on. In short, alongside its"},{"startTime":980.6,"endTime":984.32,"body":"trademark arrogance, the"},{"startTime":984.32,"endTime":987.44,"body":"European psyche became one of"},{"startTime":984.32,"endTime":987.44,"body":"resource scarcity, zero sum"},{"startTime":987.44,"endTime":990.98,"body":"logic and therefore, of conquest"},{"startTime":987.44,"endTime":990.98,"body":"by the age of discovery, the"},{"startTime":990.98,"endTime":994.64,"body":"mindset and machinery of"},{"startTime":990.98,"endTime":994.64,"body":"imperialism also had a powerful"},{"startTime":994.64,"endTime":1000.3,"body":"moral and legal justification."},{"startTime":994.64,"endTime":1000.3,"body":"In the 15th century, at the"},{"startTime":1000.3,"endTime":1003.36,"body":"start of the Age of Discovery,"},{"startTime":1000.3,"endTime":1003.36,"body":"two successive popes in Rome"},{"startTime":1003.72,"endTime":1007.44,"body":"issued a series of Papal bulls,"},{"startTime":1003.72,"endTime":1007.44,"body":"these decrees that gave"},{"startTime":1007.74,"endTime":1011.34,"body":"Christian nations a theological"},{"startTime":1007.74,"endTime":1011.34,"body":"and legal right to conquer the"},{"startTime":1011.58,"endTime":1015.72,"body":"savages who now had no rights to"},{"startTime":1011.58,"endTime":1015.72,"body":"land or sovereignty. And this"},{"startTime":1015.72,"endTime":1019.44,"body":"became the white man's burden to"},{"startTime":1015.72,"endTime":1019.44,"body":"civilize the heathen peoples of"},{"startTime":1019.44,"endTime":1023.36,"body":"the world, thereby saving their"},{"startTime":1019.44,"endTime":1023.36,"body":"souls and giving them culture."},{"startTime":1024.32,"endTime":1027.56,"body":"You might say that Christianity,"},{"startTime":1024.32,"endTime":1027.56,"body":"by then, was the operating"},{"startTime":1027.56,"endTime":1031.4,"body":"system of colonialism about as"},{"startTime":1027.56,"endTime":1031.4,"body":"far from the humble love your"},{"startTime":1031.4,"endTime":1037.1,"body":"neighbor message of Jesus's"},{"startTime":1031.4,"endTime":1037.1,"body":"teachings as you can get. And"},{"startTime":1037.1,"endTime":1039.92,"body":"now Peter thiel's framing of"},{"startTime":1037.1,"endTime":1039.92,"body":"anything opposed to this, when"},{"startTime":1039.92,"endTime":1042.7,"body":"to go tendency as the Antichrist"},{"startTime":1039.92,"endTime":1042.7,"body":"comes into clearer focus."},{"startTime":1042.7,"endTime":1045.52,"body":"Thiel's Antichrist is not a"},{"startTime":1042.7,"endTime":1045.52,"body":"horned figure with hooves and a"},{"startTime":1045.52,"endTime":1049.9,"body":"spiky tail, but degrowth"},{"startTime":1045.52,"endTime":1049.9,"body":"regulation and Greta Thunberg,"},{"startTime":1050.2,"endTime":1053.8,"body":"precisely because those ideas"},{"startTime":1050.2,"endTime":1053.8,"body":"are antithetical to the crazed"},{"startTime":1053.8,"endTime":1058.12,"body":"Wendigo mind. Again, I'm not"},{"startTime":1053.8,"endTime":1058.12,"body":"saying that this sickness is"},{"startTime":1058.12,"endTime":1061.14,"body":"inherent to being of European"},{"startTime":1058.12,"endTime":1061.14,"body":"descent or within the European"},{"startTime":1061.14,"endTime":1064.98,"body":"tradition, it is a spiritual"},{"startTime":1061.14,"endTime":1064.98,"body":"sickness that can infect anyone."},{"startTime":1065.04,"endTime":1068.46,"body":"Although Silicon Valley today"},{"startTime":1065.04,"endTime":1068.46,"body":"has elevated it to an art form"},{"startTime":1068.7,"endTime":1075.36,"body":"in the way that it approaches"},{"startTime":1068.7,"endTime":1075.36,"body":"technology innovation, it's more"},{"startTime":1075.36,"endTime":1078.12,"body":"than a desire to invade other"},{"startTime":1075.36,"endTime":1078.12,"body":"countries, either overtly or"},{"startTime":1078.12,"endTime":1080.66,"body":"covertly. It's a way of"},{"startTime":1078.12,"endTime":1080.66,"body":"thinking, a way of life that"},{"startTime":1080.66,"endTime":1084.2,"body":"thinks hyper rationally of"},{"startTime":1080.66,"endTime":1084.2,"body":"voracious expansion for its own"},{"startTime":1084.2,"endTime":1088.34,"body":"sake, and looks to malignant"},{"startTime":1084.2,"endTime":1088.34,"body":"growth as the solution to every"},{"startTime":1088.34,"endTime":1092.48,"body":"problem. And this is why Latin"},{"startTime":1088.34,"endTime":1092.48,"body":"American and Indian scholars"},{"startTime":1092.48,"endTime":1095.84,"body":"talk about the need to"},{"startTime":1092.48,"endTime":1095.84,"body":"decolonialize hearts and minds"},{"startTime":1095.84,"endTime":1101.86,"body":"to cure the infected, which is"},{"startTime":1095.84,"endTime":1101.86,"body":"all of us now. So as we can see,"},{"startTime":1101.86,"endTime":1104.98,"body":"the lasting legacy of European"},{"startTime":1101.86,"endTime":1104.98,"body":"civilization is not Christianity"},{"startTime":1104.98,"endTime":1108.94,"body":"or secular rationalism, but the"},{"startTime":1104.98,"endTime":1108.94,"body":"idea of endless urgent growth"},{"startTime":1108.94,"endTime":1113.44,"body":"and expansion at all costs. It's"},{"startTime":1108.94,"endTime":1113.44,"body":"this means justifies the ends,"},{"startTime":1113.44,"endTime":1117.88,"body":"ideology. And of course, it goes"},{"startTime":1113.44,"endTime":1117.88,"body":"without saying that America kind"},{"startTime":1117.88,"endTime":1121.38,"body":"of took up the Windigo mantle"},{"startTime":1117.88,"endTime":1121.38,"body":"from Europe after World War Two,"},{"startTime":1121.38,"endTime":1124.14,"body":"if not after the Spanish"},{"startTime":1121.38,"endTime":1124.14,"body":"American War in 1898"},{"startTime":1128.16,"endTime":1130.98,"body":"so although the Windigo fuel for"},{"startTime":1128.16,"endTime":1130.98,"body":"centuries was Christian"},{"startTime":1130.98,"endTime":1134.4,"body":"ideologies of superiority and a"},{"startTime":1130.98,"endTime":1134.4,"body":"future salvation with the"},{"startTime":1134.4,"endTime":1136.74,"body":"arrival of the Apollonian mind"},{"startTime":1134.4,"endTime":1136.74,"body":"during the European"},{"startTime":1136.74,"endTime":1140.66,"body":"enlightenment, it found a more"},{"startTime":1136.74,"endTime":1140.66,"body":"pure form of ideological fuel,"},{"startTime":1141.2,"endTime":1145.28,"body":"now human reason, Science and"},{"startTime":1141.2,"endTime":1145.28,"body":"Technology replace God as the"},{"startTime":1145.28,"endTime":1149.06,"body":"agent of salvation, leading"},{"startTime":1145.28,"endTime":1149.06,"body":"humanity toward this techno"},{"startTime":1149.06,"endTime":1152.78,"body":"scientific utopia. So instead of"},{"startTime":1149.06,"endTime":1152.78,"body":"the Second Coming, we now have"},{"startTime":1152.78,"endTime":1156.32,"body":"the singularity, where our"},{"startTime":1152.78,"endTime":1156.32,"body":"digital soul will not ascend to"},{"startTime":1156.32,"endTime":1161.2,"body":"heaven but to the cloud. It is"},{"startTime":1156.32,"endTime":1161.2,"body":"these two intertwined mindsets"},{"startTime":1161.2,"endTime":1164.02,"body":"or worldviews that have"},{"startTime":1161.2,"endTime":1164.02,"body":"dominated modern civilization"},{"startTime":1164.32,"endTime":1166.78,"body":"and become the twin strands of"},{"startTime":1164.32,"endTime":1166.78,"body":"the current approach to"},{"startTime":1166.78,"endTime":1170.68,"body":"artificial intelligence. For"},{"startTime":1166.78,"endTime":1170.68,"body":"those of us concerned with the"},{"startTime":1170.68,"endTime":1173.92,"body":"current direction of AI"},{"startTime":1170.68,"endTime":1173.92,"body":"innovation, what can be done the"},{"startTime":1189.9,"endTime":1192.18,"body":"as a countervailing force"},{"startTime":1189.9,"endTime":1192.18,"body":"against the Wendigo, the Native"},{"startTime":1192.18,"endTime":1195.96,"body":"American scholars I talked about"},{"startTime":1192.18,"endTime":1195.96,"body":"earlier recommend a return to"},{"startTime":1195.96,"endTime":1199.92,"body":"indigenous principles and an"},{"startTime":1195.96,"endTime":1199.92,"body":"indigenous worldview, one that."},{"startTime":1200.0,"endTime":1203.24,"body":"Not dissimilar to the"},{"startTime":1200.0,"endTime":1203.24,"body":"philosophically idealist yoga"},{"startTime":1203.24,"endTime":1206.6,"body":"Danta worldview that my longtime"},{"startTime":1203.24,"endTime":1206.6,"body":"listeners will be familiar with,"},{"startTime":1207.8,"endTime":1210.62,"body":"briefly, the Native American"},{"startTime":1207.8,"endTime":1210.62,"body":"worldview, and that of many"},{"startTime":1210.62,"endTime":1213.92,"body":"other indigenous traditions, is"},{"startTime":1210.62,"endTime":1213.92,"body":"one of kinship and"},{"startTime":1213.92,"endTime":1218.3,"body":"relationality, the idea that all"},{"startTime":1213.92,"endTime":1218.3,"body":"of nature is part of a vast"},{"startTime":1218.3,"endTime":1221.68,"body":"family of interconnected"},{"startTime":1218.3,"endTime":1221.68,"body":"subjects, and that includes"},{"startTime":1221.68,"endTime":1225.88,"body":"animals, plants, rivers and"},{"startTime":1221.68,"endTime":1225.88,"body":"mountains. Within that view, the"},{"startTime":1225.88,"endTime":1231.4,"body":"cosmos is made up of a web of"},{"startTime":1225.88,"endTime":1231.4,"body":"relationships. Therefore, all of"},{"startTime":1231.4,"endTime":1234.04,"body":"one's relationships are governed"},{"startTime":1231.4,"endTime":1234.04,"body":"by this kind of sacred"},{"startTime":1234.04,"endTime":1238.24,"body":"reciprocity, where one doesn't"},{"startTime":1234.04,"endTime":1238.24,"body":"simply take from nature or from"},{"startTime":1238.24,"endTime":1240.48,"body":"another person without giving"},{"startTime":1238.24,"endTime":1240.48,"body":"back"},{"startTime":1247.8,"endTime":1250.8,"body":"both the Native American and"},{"startTime":1247.8,"endTime":1250.8,"body":"yoga Danta worldviews are"},{"startTime":1250.8,"endTime":1254.46,"body":"fundamentally non dual in"},{"startTime":1250.8,"endTime":1254.46,"body":"opposition to the materialist"},{"startTime":1254.46,"endTime":1258.42,"body":"subject, object dualism of"},{"startTime":1254.46,"endTime":1258.42,"body":"scientism, and they both see the"},{"startTime":1258.42,"endTime":1262.52,"body":"cosmos as fundamentally"},{"startTime":1258.42,"endTime":1262.52,"body":"conscious as the Anima Mundi, or"},{"startTime":1262.52,"endTime":1267.8,"body":"world soul. For the ancient"},{"startTime":1262.52,"endTime":1267.8,"body":"yogis, the cosmos is Shakti, or"},{"startTime":1267.8,"endTime":1273.2,"body":"Brahma this divine play and"},{"startTime":1267.8,"endTime":1273.2,"body":"creative dance. For the Native"},{"startTime":1273.2,"endTime":1277.76,"body":"American tribes, the Earth is a"},{"startTime":1273.2,"endTime":1277.76,"body":"living, conscious mother. Even"},{"startTime":1277.76,"endTime":1281.8,"body":"their core ethics of reciprocity"},{"startTime":1277.76,"endTime":1281.8,"body":"and karma are similar in that"},{"startTime":1281.8,"endTime":1284.26,"body":"they underscore the fact that"},{"startTime":1281.8,"endTime":1284.26,"body":"because we are all"},{"startTime":1284.32,"endTime":1288.4,"body":"interconnected with other"},{"startTime":1284.32,"endTime":1288.4,"body":"subjects in the cosmos, any"},{"startTime":1288.4,"endTime":1292.72,"body":"action we take affects the"},{"startTime":1288.4,"endTime":1292.72,"body":"whole, of course, the imminent"},{"startTime":1292.78,"endTime":1296.2,"body":"Native American goal to live in"},{"startTime":1292.78,"endTime":1296.2,"body":"harmony with the world as it is"},{"startTime":1296.2,"endTime":1299.32,"body":"may seem to differ from some"},{"startTime":1296.2,"endTime":1299.32,"body":"interpretations or"},{"startTime":1299.32,"endTime":1302.94,"body":"manifestations of the yoga Dante"},{"startTime":1299.32,"endTime":1302.94,"body":"goal of liberation from the"},{"startTime":1302.94,"endTime":1306.72,"body":"cycles of birth and death, the"},{"startTime":1302.94,"endTime":1306.72,"body":"yoga traditions that I follow"},{"startTime":1306.72,"endTime":1309.66,"body":"are also imminent in this way of"},{"startTime":1306.72,"endTime":1309.66,"body":"recognizing that there is"},{"startTime":1309.66,"endTime":1315.3,"body":"nowhere else to be but in the"},{"startTime":1309.66,"endTime":1315.3,"body":"manifest cosmos. Robin wall"},{"startTime":1315.3,"endTime":1318.6,"body":"Kimmerer in particular,"},{"startTime":1315.3,"endTime":1318.6,"body":"references an Anishinaabe"},{"startTime":1318.78,"endTime":1322.7,"body":"prophecy of the eight fires."},{"startTime":1318.78,"endTime":1322.7,"body":"According to this prophecy,"},{"startTime":1322.82,"endTime":1325.82,"body":"humanity is currently in the"},{"startTime":1322.82,"endTime":1325.82,"body":"seventh fire, where the Fire"},{"startTime":1325.82,"endTime":1329.18,"body":"Keepers retrace their steps in"},{"startTime":1325.82,"endTime":1329.18,"body":"order to gather up the fragments"},{"startTime":1329.18,"endTime":1333.2,"body":"of songs, stories and sacred"},{"startTime":1329.18,"endTime":1333.2,"body":"teachings, so that the eighth"},{"startTime":1333.2,"endTime":1335.9,"body":"fire can be kindled in a great"},{"startTime":1333.2,"endTime":1335.9,"body":"coming together of peoples"},{"startTime":1335.9,"endTime":1340.96,"body":"around the world to walk a soft"},{"startTime":1335.9,"endTime":1340.96,"body":"path of wisdom, respect and"},{"startTime":1340.96,"endTime":1344.98,"body":"reciprocity. Kimmerer"},{"startTime":1340.96,"endTime":1344.98,"body":"characterizes this as a"},{"startTime":1345.1,"endTime":1347.86,"body":"synthesis of indigenous wisdom"},{"startTime":1345.1,"endTime":1347.86,"body":"from around the world,"},{"startTime":1348.64,"endTime":1352.06,"body":"indigenous European knowledge,"},{"startTime":1348.64,"endTime":1352.06,"body":"indigenous Asian knowledge and"},{"startTime":1352.06,"endTime":1355.78,"body":"indigenous knowledge from the"},{"startTime":1352.06,"endTime":1355.78,"body":"Americas. Despite the immense"},{"startTime":1355.78,"endTime":1358.66,"body":"diversity of those traditions,"},{"startTime":1355.78,"endTime":1358.66,"body":"for our purposes, we can boil"},{"startTime":1358.66,"endTime":1362.4,"body":"down their varied manifestations"},{"startTime":1358.66,"endTime":1362.4,"body":"into a synthesis that reflects"},{"startTime":1362.4,"endTime":1365.22,"body":"the Native American and East"},{"startTime":1362.4,"endTime":1365.22,"body":"Indian worldviews that I talked"},{"startTime":1365.22,"endTime":1369.3,"body":"about earlier. So what does this"},{"startTime":1365.22,"endTime":1369.3,"body":"look like in practical, concrete"},{"startTime":1369.3,"endTime":1373.44,"body":"terms, especially in the context"},{"startTime":1369.3,"endTime":1373.44,"body":"of technology innovation? Is"},{"startTime":1373.44,"endTime":1377.82,"body":"there a way forward? In other"},{"startTime":1373.44,"endTime":1377.82,"body":"words, now that we've recognized"},{"startTime":1377.82,"endTime":1381.6,"body":"the general shape of the"},{"startTime":1377.82,"endTime":1381.6,"body":"challenge, what can we do? The"},{"startTime":1381.6,"endTime":1384.74,"body":"hurried, myopic gambler"},{"startTime":1381.6,"endTime":1384.74,"body":"mentality behind the way AI is"},{"startTime":1384.74,"endTime":1388.04,"body":"currently developed, where we"},{"startTime":1384.74,"endTime":1388.04,"body":"have Sam Altman wanting to throw"},{"startTime":1388.04,"endTime":1391.76,"body":"$7 trillion at large language"},{"startTime":1388.04,"endTime":1391.76,"body":"models in the hopes that scaling"},{"startTime":1392.06,"endTime":1395.3,"body":"will lead to an ill defined"},{"startTime":1392.06,"endTime":1395.3,"body":"machine messiah of some kind."},{"startTime":1395.9,"endTime":1399.32,"body":"You know this? This mentality is"},{"startTime":1395.9,"endTime":1399.32,"body":"just how business is done. This"},{"startTime":1399.32,"endTime":1402.88,"body":"approach to AI is a sort of"},{"startTime":1399.32,"endTime":1402.88,"body":"blitz scaling model that accepts"},{"startTime":1402.88,"endTime":1407.2,"body":"ethical and social breakage as"},{"startTime":1402.88,"endTime":1407.2,"body":"the cost of doing business. Who,"},{"startTime":1407.2,"endTime":1409.66,"body":"in their right mind, would"},{"startTime":1407.2,"endTime":1409.66,"body":"deviate from this tried and true"},{"startTime":1409.66,"endTime":1413.56,"body":"path to the American dream of a"},{"startTime":1409.66,"endTime":1413.56,"body":"frontier utopia? I mean, it"},{"startTime":1413.56,"endTime":1416.62,"body":"feels like I'm proposing a"},{"startTime":1413.56,"endTime":1416.62,"body":"revolution of some kind, right,"},{"startTime":1417.34,"endTime":1420.54,"body":"or just being a total buzz kill."},{"startTime":1417.34,"endTime":1420.54,"body":"Like, Hey everyone, let's just,"},{"startTime":1420.54,"endTime":1423.36,"body":"let's just do it a different"},{"startTime":1420.54,"endTime":1423.36,"body":"way, like, let's not all make a"},{"startTime":1423.36,"endTime":1426.66,"body":"billion dollars, right? But"},{"startTime":1423.36,"endTime":1426.66,"body":"there is a growing consensus"},{"startTime":1426.66,"endTime":1429.6,"body":"that we've hit the kind of too"},{"startTime":1426.66,"endTime":1429.6,"body":"big to fail era of the AI"},{"startTime":1429.6,"endTime":1433.44,"body":"bubble. I mean, we see Michael"},{"startTime":1429.6,"endTime":1433.44,"body":"Burry of Big Short fame betting"},{"startTime":1433.44,"endTime":1438.18,"body":"a billion dollars on the AI"},{"startTime":1433.44,"endTime":1438.18,"body":"bubble bursting anyway. I think"},{"startTime":1438.18,"endTime":1440.94,"body":"it's time for bold proposals in"},{"startTime":1438.18,"endTime":1440.94,"body":"the same way that the explosion"},{"startTime":1440.94,"endTime":1443.54,"body":"of large language models is"},{"startTime":1440.94,"endTime":1443.54,"body":"forcing us to forcing us to"},{"startTime":1443.54,"endTime":1446.42,"body":"confront philosophical and"},{"startTime":1443.54,"endTime":1446.42,"body":"spiritual questions about what"},{"startTime":1446.42,"endTime":1448.82,"body":"it means to be human and the"},{"startTime":1446.42,"endTime":1448.82,"body":"nature of consciousness, I think"},{"startTime":1448.82,"endTime":1451.4,"body":"it's forcing us to reevaluate"},{"startTime":1448.82,"endTime":1451.4,"body":"other assumptions, like what"},{"startTime":1451.4,"endTime":1455.12,"body":"makes for a good business model."},{"startTime":1451.4,"endTime":1455.12,"body":"Because, as I am arguing in this"},{"startTime":1455.18,"endTime":1459.08,"body":"episode and in this series, AI"},{"startTime":1455.18,"endTime":1459.08,"body":"is the apotheosis of the"},{"startTime":1459.08,"endTime":1462.64,"body":"scientific revolution and its"},{"startTime":1459.08,"endTime":1462.64,"body":"ideologies, it seems to be the"},{"startTime":1462.64,"endTime":1466.54,"body":"tipping point into what Thomas"},{"startTime":1462.64,"endTime":1466.54,"body":"Kuhn calls a paradigm shift that"},{"startTime":1466.54,"endTime":1469.3,"body":"underpins scientific"},{"startTime":1466.54,"endTime":1469.3,"body":"revolutions, except this time,"},{"startTime":1469.3,"endTime":1471.58,"body":"it's the beginning of a"},{"startTime":1469.3,"endTime":1471.58,"body":"revolution in worldviews,"},{"startTime":1471.82,"endTime":1475.42,"body":"socioeconomic and sociopolitical"},{"startTime":1471.82,"endTime":1475.42,"body":"theory and approaches to"},{"startTime":1475.42,"endTime":1479.98,"body":"business. As Kimmerer suggested,"},{"startTime":1475.42,"endTime":1479.98,"body":"we must walk back over where we"},{"startTime":1479.98,"endTime":1483.06,"body":"have been in order to gather up"},{"startTime":1479.98,"endTime":1483.06,"body":"only what is relevant for what's"},{"startTime":1483.06,"endTime":1486.48,"body":"next, fragments of wisdom and"},{"startTime":1483.06,"endTime":1486.48,"body":"sacred knowledge in order to"},{"startTime":1486.48,"endTime":1491.64,"body":"shape this new paradigm. Paul"},{"startTime":1486.48,"endTime":1491.64,"body":"Levy suggests that the antidote"},{"startTime":1491.64,"endTime":1495.54,"body":"to the Wendigo virus is simply"},{"startTime":1491.64,"endTime":1495.54,"body":"exposing it to the light, a kind"},{"startTime":1495.54,"endTime":1499.74,"body":"of collective shadow work. And I"},{"startTime":1495.54,"endTime":1499.74,"body":"think that's part of it. Robin"},{"startTime":1499.74,"endTime":1502.82,"body":"well. Kimmerer proposes that we"},{"startTime":1499.74,"endTime":1502.82,"body":"shift our worldview and move to"},{"startTime":1502.82,"endTime":1506.48,"body":"a gift economy, which is also"},{"startTime":1502.82,"endTime":1506.48,"body":"part of it, I think. And Jack D"},{"startTime":1506.48,"endTime":1509.9,"body":"Forbes suggested something"},{"startTime":1506.48,"endTime":1509.9,"body":"similar. So going back to the"},{"startTime":1509.9,"endTime":1512.66,"body":"questions that I began with, can"},{"startTime":1509.9,"endTime":1512.66,"body":"we find a way to make artificial"},{"startTime":1512.66,"endTime":1515.24,"body":"intelligence that serves"},{"startTime":1512.66,"endTime":1515.24,"body":"humanity, rather than creating a"},{"startTime":1515.24,"endTime":1519.08,"body":"supposed Machine God and forcing"},{"startTime":1515.24,"endTime":1519.08,"body":"humanity to be more machine like"},{"startTime":1520.04,"endTime":1523.42,"body":"although these are big questions"},{"startTime":1520.04,"endTime":1523.42,"body":"with no easy answers, I think we"},{"startTime":1523.42,"endTime":1525.94,"body":"can address the challenges"},{"startTime":1523.42,"endTime":1525.94,"body":"presented by the double helix of"},{"startTime":1525.94,"endTime":1529.6,"body":"Apollonian thinking and this"},{"startTime":1525.94,"endTime":1529.6,"body":"Wendigo sickness in three parts,"},{"startTime":1529.84,"endTime":1531.94,"body":"each of which draws on a"},{"startTime":1529.84,"endTime":1531.94,"body":"different part of my own"},{"startTime":1531.94,"endTime":1535.42,"body":"background as a technology"},{"startTime":1531.94,"endTime":1535.42,"body":"philosopher, attorney and"},{"startTime":1535.42,"endTime":1539.2,"body":"software engineer, the first"},{"startTime":1535.42,"endTime":1539.2,"body":"step is talking openly and"},{"startTime":1539.2,"endTime":1542.64,"body":"honestly about the current state"},{"startTime":1539.2,"endTime":1542.64,"body":"of affairs. That was the impetus"},{"startTime":1542.64,"endTime":1546.06,"body":"behind this episode. It's"},{"startTime":1542.64,"endTime":1546.06,"body":"crucial, I think, that we raise"},{"startTime":1546.06,"endTime":1549.84,"body":"awareness of the harms of the"},{"startTime":1546.06,"endTime":1549.84,"body":"Windigo tendency, and cultivate"},{"startTime":1549.84,"endTime":1553.08,"body":"technology leaders who are"},{"startTime":1549.84,"endTime":1553.08,"body":"devoid of the Wendigo sickness,"},{"startTime":1553.44,"endTime":1556.32,"body":"leaders who understand that"},{"startTime":1553.44,"endTime":1556.32,"body":"every participant in the human"},{"startTime":1556.32,"endTime":1559.68,"body":"and non human world is"},{"startTime":1556.32,"endTime":1559.68,"body":"interconnected, leaders who"},{"startTime":1559.68,"endTime":1563.96,"body":"prioritize reciprocity. In other"},{"startTime":1559.68,"endTime":1563.96,"body":"words, because technology"},{"startTime":1563.96,"endTime":1566.54,"body":"reflects the consciousness of"},{"startTime":1563.96,"endTime":1566.54,"body":"those creating it, I think"},{"startTime":1566.54,"endTime":1570.02,"body":"finding or cultivating leaders"},{"startTime":1566.54,"endTime":1570.02,"body":"and innovators with their heart"},{"startTime":1570.02,"endTime":1573.5,"body":"in the right place is paramount"},{"startTime":1570.02,"endTime":1573.5,"body":"in the same way that toxic"},{"startTime":1573.5,"endTime":1576.92,"body":"startup founders create a toxic"},{"startTime":1573.5,"endTime":1576.92,"body":"workplace culture that can never"},{"startTime":1576.92,"endTime":1580.36,"body":"be fully remedied. Sociopathic"},{"startTime":1576.92,"endTime":1580.36,"body":"innovation leadership will only"},{"startTime":1580.36,"endTime":1583.36,"body":"lead us to a sociopathic future"},{"startTime":1580.36,"endTime":1583.36,"body":"full of toxic, extractive"},{"startTime":1583.36,"endTime":1587.02,"body":"technologies, letting Peter"},{"startTime":1583.36,"endTime":1587.02,"body":"Thiel, Elon, Musk and Sam Altman"},{"startTime":1587.02,"endTime":1589.96,"body":"set the innovation agenda will"},{"startTime":1587.02,"endTime":1589.96,"body":"only worsen the problems that"},{"startTime":1589.96,"endTime":1594.04,"body":"I've highlighted in this"},{"startTime":1589.96,"endTime":1594.04,"body":"episode. Okay, the next step is"},{"startTime":1594.34,"endTime":1597.52,"body":"perhaps changing the way we do"},{"startTime":1594.34,"endTime":1597.52,"body":"business. I mean, now that open"},{"startTime":1597.52,"endTime":1601.08,"body":"AI has completed its for profit"},{"startTime":1597.52,"endTime":1601.08,"body":"transformation, I think it's"},{"startTime":1601.08,"endTime":1603.42,"body":"time to look in the other"},{"startTime":1601.08,"endTime":1603.42,"body":"direction, not just at the"},{"startTime":1603.42,"endTime":1606.48,"body":"nonprofit model, but to"},{"startTime":1603.42,"endTime":1606.48,"body":"corporate structures for AI,"},{"startTime":1606.48,"endTime":1609.36,"body":"companies and organizations that"},{"startTime":1606.48,"endTime":1609.36,"body":"fundamentally change the"},{"startTime":1609.36,"endTime":1613.98,"body":"incentives, including public"},{"startTime":1609.36,"endTime":1613.98,"body":"benefit corporations or even"},{"startTime":1613.98,"endTime":1618.12,"body":"steward ownership, if you're not"},{"startTime":1613.98,"endTime":1618.12,"body":"familiar. Steward ownership is a"},{"startTime":1618.12,"endTime":1620.72,"body":"purpose driven business"},{"startTime":1618.12,"endTime":1620.72,"body":"structure that prioritizes a"},{"startTime":1620.72,"endTime":1624.44,"body":"company's long term purpose and"},{"startTime":1620.72,"endTime":1624.44,"body":"well being over maximizing short"},{"startTime":1624.44,"endTime":1627.5,"body":"term profits for external"},{"startTime":1624.44,"endTime":1627.5,"body":"shareholders, and it does this"},{"startTime":1627.5,"endTime":1630.8,"body":"by separating voting rights, the"},{"startTime":1627.5,"endTime":1630.8,"body":"control of the company, from"},{"startTime":1630.8,"endTime":1633.92,"body":"economic rights or the profit to"},{"startTime":1630.8,"endTime":1633.92,"body":"ensure that the company is"},{"startTime":1633.92,"endTime":1637.46,"body":"guided by its mission and that"},{"startTime":1633.92,"endTime":1637.46,"body":"those who are actively involved"},{"startTime":1637.46,"endTime":1642.04,"body":"in Its operation are properly"},{"startTime":1637.46,"endTime":1642.04,"body":"incentivized to hew to that"},{"startTime":1642.04,"endTime":1645.76,"body":"mission. In other words, a"},{"startTime":1642.04,"endTime":1645.76,"body":"steward owned company is owned"},{"startTime":1645.88,"endTime":1649.18,"body":"by its purpose. There are no"},{"startTime":1645.88,"endTime":1649.18,"body":"shareholders who can exert undue"},{"startTime":1649.18,"endTime":1653.2,"body":"pressure on short term financial"},{"startTime":1649.18,"endTime":1653.2,"body":"gains in steward ownership, the"},{"startTime":1653.44,"endTime":1656.14,"body":"Voting Rights remain with those"},{"startTime":1653.44,"endTime":1656.14,"body":"personnel who are actively"},{"startTime":1656.14,"endTime":1659.44,"body":"managing the company and"},{"startTime":1656.14,"endTime":1659.44,"body":"connected to its operations and"},{"startTime":1659.44,"endTime":1663.36,"body":"purpose. And those rights cannot"},{"startTime":1659.44,"endTime":1663.36,"body":"be sold or inherited. They don't"},{"startTime":1663.36,"endTime":1666.42,"body":"generate any financial returns."},{"startTime":1663.36,"endTime":1666.42,"body":"Instead, they stay with the"},{"startTime":1666.42,"endTime":1670.86,"body":"company over its lifetime as"},{"startTime":1666.42,"endTime":1670.86,"body":"personnel change any profits"},{"startTime":1670.86,"endTime":1673.68,"body":"generated by the business, and"},{"startTime":1670.86,"endTime":1673.68,"body":"all the assets are held in"},{"startTime":1673.68,"endTime":1676.74,"body":"support of the company's"},{"startTime":1673.68,"endTime":1676.74,"body":"mission, so they are reinvested"},{"startTime":1676.74,"endTime":1680.4,"body":"in the business to cover capital"},{"startTime":1676.74,"endTime":1680.4,"body":"costs, or sometimes distributed"},{"startTime":1680.4,"endTime":1685.28,"body":"to employees. For example, had"},{"startTime":1680.4,"endTime":1685.28,"body":"open AI begun as a steward owned"},{"startTime":1685.28,"endTime":1687.86,"body":"company, it would have been"},{"startTime":1685.28,"endTime":1687.86,"body":"forced to stick to its original"},{"startTime":1687.86,"endTime":1691.04,"body":"mission to ensure that AGI"},{"startTime":1687.86,"endTime":1691.04,"body":"benefits all of humanity."},{"startTime":1691.46,"endTime":1695.54,"body":"Instead, we get Sora two and"},{"startTime":1691.46,"endTime":1695.54,"body":"pleas from its CFO to have the"},{"startTime":1695.54,"endTime":1698.96,"body":"US government guarantee its"},{"startTime":1695.54,"endTime":1698.96,"body":"insanely risky investments,"},{"startTime":1700.16,"endTime":1702.82,"body":"although steward ownership is a"},{"startTime":1700.16,"endTime":1702.82,"body":"corporate structure that has"},{"startTime":1702.82,"endTime":1707.32,"body":"been around for over a century,"},{"startTime":1702.82,"endTime":1707.32,"body":"it is still pretty rare. One US"},{"startTime":1707.32,"endTime":1710.92,"body":"based example is the outdoor"},{"startTime":1707.32,"endTime":1710.92,"body":"clothing company Patagonia, who"},{"startTime":1710.92,"endTime":1715.12,"body":"transitioned to steward"},{"startTime":1710.92,"endTime":1715.12,"body":"ownership in 2022 they leveraged"},{"startTime":1715.12,"endTime":1718.6,"body":"existing us trust and corporate"},{"startTime":1715.12,"endTime":1718.6,"body":"laws, creating two entities, the"},{"startTime":1718.6,"endTime":1722.04,"body":"Patagonia purpose Trust, which"},{"startTime":1718.6,"endTime":1722.04,"body":"is the steward and the holdfast"},{"startTime":1722.04,"endTime":1724.98,"body":"collective, this nonprofit that"},{"startTime":1722.04,"endTime":1724.98,"body":"manages the profits and"},{"startTime":1724.98,"endTime":1728.4,"body":"reinvests them back into the"},{"startTime":1724.98,"endTime":1728.4,"body":"business, primarily to address"},{"startTime":1728.4,"endTime":1732.6,"body":"the environmental crisis. No"},{"startTime":1728.4,"endTime":1732.6,"body":"doubt, incorporating as steward"},{"startTime":1732.6,"endTime":1735.78,"body":"owned is challenging. Not only"},{"startTime":1732.6,"endTime":1735.78,"body":"is the corporate structure"},{"startTime":1735.78,"endTime":1738.9,"body":"complex from a legal standpoint,"},{"startTime":1735.78,"endTime":1738.9,"body":"but raising capital requires"},{"startTime":1738.9,"endTime":1742.28,"body":"finding niche, mission driven"},{"startTime":1738.9,"endTime":1742.28,"body":"investors who understand that"},{"startTime":1742.28,"endTime":1745.52,"body":"there can never be an exit or"},{"startTime":1742.28,"endTime":1745.52,"body":"massive returns on investment,"},{"startTime":1745.94,"endTime":1750.86,"body":"let alone a say in how the"},{"startTime":1745.94,"endTime":1750.86,"body":"company operates, still imagine"},{"startTime":1750.86,"endTime":1754.04,"body":"the first AI models and AI"},{"startTime":1750.86,"endTime":1754.04,"body":"company built with a sense of"},{"startTime":1754.04,"endTime":1757.58,"body":"kinship and reciprocity and"},{"startTime":1754.04,"endTime":1757.58,"body":"structured to remain that way, I"},{"startTime":1757.82,"endTime":1760.54,"body":"think it would resonate with a"},{"startTime":1757.82,"endTime":1760.54,"body":"lot of people And stand as an"},{"startTime":1760.54,"endTime":1764.68,"body":"attractive alternative to the"},{"startTime":1760.54,"endTime":1764.68,"body":"crazed Wendigo AI systems on"},{"startTime":1764.68,"endTime":1765.46,"body":"offer today."},{"startTime":1767.02,"endTime":1770.74,"body":"Finally, what if we built"},{"startTime":1767.02,"endTime":1770.74,"body":"technology itself on the unsold"},{"startTime":1770.74,"endTime":1774.28,"body":"principles of kinship and"},{"startTime":1770.74,"endTime":1774.28,"body":"reciprocity, instead of"},{"startTime":1774.28,"endTime":1778.72,"body":"voracious extraction and"},{"startTime":1774.28,"endTime":1778.72,"body":"consumption? We could call these"},{"startTime":1778.78,"endTime":1783.0,"body":"alternative technologies hearth"},{"startTime":1778.78,"endTime":1783.0,"body":"technologies, where Empire"},{"startTime":1783.0,"endTime":1787.32,"body":"technologies like social media"},{"startTime":1783.0,"endTime":1787.32,"body":"or Sora two extract value from"},{"startTime":1787.32,"endTime":1790.62,"body":"the periphery and concentrate it"},{"startTime":1787.32,"endTime":1790.62,"body":"in the center. A hearth"},{"startTime":1790.62,"endTime":1795.06,"body":"technology radiates warmth"},{"startTime":1790.62,"endTime":1795.06,"body":"outward instead of atomizing"},{"startTime":1795.06,"endTime":1798.66,"body":"individuals. A hearth technology"},{"startTime":1795.06,"endTime":1798.66,"body":"creates and empowers"},{"startTime":1798.72,"endTime":1803.324,"body":"communities. A hearth technology"},{"startTime":1798.72,"endTime":1803.324,"body":"implements reciprocity by"},{"startTime":1803.324,"endTime":1806.804,"body":"cultivating lasting"},{"startTime":1803.324,"endTime":1806.804,"body":"relationships built on trust and"},{"startTime":1806.804,"endTime":1810.644,"body":"a kind of give and take, instead"},{"startTime":1806.804,"endTime":1810.644,"body":"of on monopolizing attention and"},{"startTime":1810.644,"endTime":1815.204,"body":"fostering addiction. Could an AI"},{"startTime":1810.644,"endTime":1815.204,"body":"model or system be built this"},{"startTime":1815.204,"endTime":1819.104,"body":"way? There are already a few"},{"startTime":1815.204,"endTime":1819.104,"body":"indigenous AI systems that are"},{"startTime":1819.104,"endTime":1822.88,"body":"trained ethically on indigenous"},{"startTime":1819.104,"endTime":1822.88,"body":"data, primarily in Australia."},{"startTime":1822.94,"endTime":1826.24,"body":"I'll drop a couple examples in"},{"startTime":1822.94,"endTime":1826.24,"body":"the show notes. But what about a"},{"startTime":1826.24,"endTime":1830.32,"body":"general purpose hearth AI? Maybe"},{"startTime":1826.24,"endTime":1830.32,"body":"we can draw inspiration from"},{"startTime":1830.32,"endTime":1833.86,"body":"some of these new EU based"},{"startTime":1830.32,"endTime":1833.86,"body":"models that are coming out of"},{"startTime":1833.86,"endTime":1838.36,"body":"Europe, that were ethically"},{"startTime":1833.86,"endTime":1838.36,"body":"trained and that are EU AI Act"},{"startTime":1838.36,"endTime":1842.46,"body":"compliant. I don't know. These"},{"startTime":1838.36,"endTime":1842.46,"body":"are all just kind of inchoate"},{"startTime":1842.76,"endTime":1847.68,"body":"early ideas about how to make AI"},{"startTime":1842.76,"endTime":1847.68,"body":"in a way that's not when to go"},{"startTime":1848.4,"endTime":1852.12,"body":"anyway. We could take a sort of"},{"startTime":1848.4,"endTime":1852.12,"body":"like negative inspiration from"},{"startTime":1852.18,"endTime":1855.84,"body":"Elon Musk and how he's creating"},{"startTime":1852.18,"endTime":1855.84,"body":"this, like anti woke AI with"},{"startTime":1855.84,"endTime":1860.42,"body":"grok, and we could, we could"},{"startTime":1855.84,"endTime":1860.42,"body":"create AI models and AI systems"},{"startTime":1860.42,"endTime":1865.1,"body":"that embody an ensouled or"},{"startTime":1860.42,"endTime":1865.1,"body":"indigenous worldview, and that"},{"startTime":1865.1,"endTime":1867.56,"body":"could include"},{"startTime":1865.1,"endTime":1867.56,"body":"interconnectedness, reciprocity"},{"startTime":1867.56,"endTime":1871.64,"body":"and community. In fact, I've"},{"startTime":1867.56,"endTime":1871.64,"body":"been talking recently to some"},{"startTime":1871.64,"endTime":1875.96,"body":"friends and colleagues about"},{"startTime":1871.64,"endTime":1875.96,"body":"creating just such an AI, and I"},{"startTime":1875.96,"endTime":1879.98,"body":"know there are several inchoate"},{"startTime":1875.96,"endTime":1879.98,"body":"attempts at a sort of like Gaia"},{"startTime":1879.98,"endTime":1882.82,"body":"AI that are in the works across"},{"startTime":1879.98,"endTime":1882.82,"body":"different groups around the"},{"startTime":1882.82,"endTime":1885.7,"body":"world that I've talked to. I"},{"startTime":1882.82,"endTime":1885.7,"body":"would also be interested in"},{"startTime":1885.7,"endTime":1888.76,"body":"starting a sort of Think Tank to"},{"startTime":1885.7,"endTime":1888.76,"body":"explore these ideas. So I'm"},{"startTime":1888.76,"endTime":1891.46,"body":"going to keep talking about this"},{"startTime":1888.76,"endTime":1891.46,"body":"and explore all that in future"},{"startTime":1891.46,"endTime":1898.06,"body":"episodes. So I started writing"},{"startTime":1891.46,"endTime":1898.06,"body":"this episode in an attempt to"},{"startTime":1898.3,"endTime":1901.38,"body":"name and understand the"},{"startTime":1898.3,"endTime":1901.38,"body":"consumptive extractive force,"},{"startTime":1901.38,"endTime":1906.24,"body":"this Wendigo force that drives"},{"startTime":1901.38,"endTime":1906.24,"body":"AI innovation, and honestly, I"},{"startTime":1906.24,"endTime":1910.02,"body":"had no idea that it would lead"},{"startTime":1906.24,"endTime":1910.02,"body":"to me talking about alternative"},{"startTime":1910.02,"endTime":1914.58,"body":"corporate structures or hearth"},{"startTime":1910.02,"endTime":1914.58,"body":"technologies. Like why does"},{"startTime":1914.58,"endTime":1917.22,"body":"technology innovation have to"},{"startTime":1914.58,"endTime":1917.22,"body":"run on these feast and famine"},{"startTime":1917.22,"endTime":1921.08,"body":"cycles of exuberant hype and"},{"startTime":1917.22,"endTime":1921.08,"body":"duplicative investment followed"},{"startTime":1921.08,"endTime":1924.38,"body":"by enormous crashes. Why does"},{"startTime":1921.08,"endTime":1924.38,"body":"technology innovation have to"},{"startTime":1924.38,"endTime":1927.32,"body":"feel like gambling? I think it's"},{"startTime":1924.38,"endTime":1927.32,"body":"because of these Windigo"},{"startTime":1927.32,"endTime":1931.76,"body":"tendencies. My journey of"},{"startTime":1927.32,"endTime":1931.76,"body":"stumbling into the myth and"},{"startTime":1931.76,"endTime":1935.18,"body":"metaphor of the Windigo has been"},{"startTime":1931.76,"endTime":1935.18,"body":"so enlightening, but also has"},{"startTime":1935.18,"endTime":1938.84,"body":"only just begun. I know there"},{"startTime":1935.18,"endTime":1938.84,"body":"are already organizations out"},{"startTime":1938.84,"endTime":1942.1,"body":"there exploring these questions"},{"startTime":1938.84,"endTime":1942.1,"body":"from an explicitly indigenous"},{"startTime":1942.1,"endTime":1945.34,"body":"standpoint. So I want to offer"},{"startTime":1942.1,"endTime":1945.34,"body":"gratitude and respect to all who"},{"startTime":1945.34,"endTime":1948.46,"body":"have come before. My only"},{"startTime":1945.34,"endTime":1948.46,"body":"intention here is to raise"},{"startTime":1948.46,"endTime":1953.8,"body":"awareness and explore uplifting"},{"startTime":1948.46,"endTime":1953.8,"body":"paths forward. More on all of"},{"startTime":1953.8,"endTime":1953.98,"body":"this"},{"startTime":1954.4,"endTime":1960.12,"body":"very soon, you you."}]}