Mapaseka Koetle on Navigating Divorce Financially and Emotionally

Can love and money ever mix? Actress Mapaseka Koetle believes clear lines must be drawn, especially if the relationship extends to business. Chatting with our Head of Financial Education, John Manyike, she shares her tips on marriage contracts, emotional decision-making, open communication, and more.

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Transcript

Old Mutual  0:00
Welcome to the On The Money Podcast with John Manyike.

John Manyike  0:04
Hello, Pasi.

Mapaseka Koetle  0:05
Hello, John.

John Manyike  0:06
How are you doing? 

Mapaseka Koetle  0:06
I'm good. How are you? 

John Manyike  0:07
Good, good. You know, I know I said this off the record. I don't know why you're not in comedy. 

Mapaseka Koetle  0:14
Stand-up comedy or just comedy?

John Manyike  0:16
Doesn’t matter. Comedy is comedy. 

Mapaseka Koetle  0:18
You're not the first person to say that And I think it's something that I should consider, because the latest job I just did, it was a rom-com, which is... I find myself more comfortable in such scenes than, you know, your drama and your serious stuff. So, I think I must consider it and take it more seriously. Because sometimes I look at myself and I say something and I laugh at my own jokes. That's how funny I think-

John Manyike  0:39
You laugh at your own jokes? And you still don't think you're mad. 

Mapaseka Koetle  0:45
I will take your advice definitely. 

John Manyike  0:47
All right, let's take one step back. Who is Mapaseka? We know you're born in Free State. Tell us where you're from. 

Mapaseka Koetle  0:55
I'm from Bloemfontein, Rocklands. I grew up with my mom and my younger sister. So, my dad left my mom when I was seven years old. So, it has always been me and my younger sister. But I do have other siblings. They're just much older. So, by the time I was born, my mom’s first born was getting married in 1989 because she had her first baby when she was still young. But I'm so close to my younger sister and my mom because that was our home. So, primary school, Bloemfontein. High school, Bloemfontein. Life was very interesting, you know, when you grow up in a hard situation but because it isn’t your problem, but is your mother's problem but it's not as hectic as our problems now as adults. So, when my dad left, it was difficult. But look at me now. I'm sitting here with you talking about what, money.

John Manyike  1:45
It is. Interesting you should say that because, you know, our early exposure to life, particularly around lack, where there's not enough. It teaches you certain things in life, later in life. So, that phase in your life where there was lack, as you put it, what did you learn from there?

Mapaseka Koetle  2:06
To appreciate. Just to fast forward. So, after I finished my matric, I've always wanted to be an actress, but because there was no money, it was not even lack. It was nothing. There's a difference between lack. 

John Manyike  2:19
I even didn't know, so there's a difference between lack. 

Mapaseka Koetle  2:23
Lack and nothing. But I always had a dream of coming to Johannesburg to study acting because I remember when my dad left, they were married in community of property, my dad and my mom. So, when they were sharing everything, my dad took the TV because he was like “ this TV is mine”. 

John Manyike  2:43
I'm sure it was a black and white. 

Mapaseka Koetle  2:44
It was a black and white. It was so tiny. He left with the TV. So, every time I would walk from my home to my cousin's house to go watch Backstage at the time, because I really enjoyed watching Backstage. And that's where my love for acting came out. And then I realized, well, you know what? I don't want to lie and say I had ‘Plan B’. You know, we would lie to each other. I want to be a teacher one day. I just always wanted to be an actress. And I would make sure I go to my cousin's house to go watch omnibus of backstage. And after that, now fast forward going to AFDA. So, going to AFDA. I had to now understand, what can I do to get to Johannesburg when there's no money at all? And a friend of mine was telling me about student loans. You know, there's a student loan, but student loan surety. My mom is not working, nobody else in the family. And TV is gone.  And then a teacher, my teacher, who was my drama teacher in high school offered to be my surety. And every time I tell the story, I get so emotional because he's nothing to me. He was not my brother, he was not family. He just knew that Mapaseka loves acting, every time we did scripts, sketchy, I light up. And then I came to Johannesburg  to study acting. So now, I had no choice but to be content when I went to AFDA. Every single child at AFDA, their parents were rich, they were driving cars after school. After school, they’d remove their car keys ‘beep-beep’.  But I think at the time, there was no way I could call my mom and ask for a car when she doesn't have money for food. There was no way I could cry about, I saw Puleng with a weave. I don't have it. All I wanted was to study. All I wanted was to eat. That's all. So, it has taught me how to be content. I think, God forbid, if anything would happen to me now, nobody would know because even on my social media, I don't post things like ‘I bought this bag’. I'm not like that because I appreciate money so much, because I grew up with nothing. 

John Manyike  4:39
So, how did your breakthrough come about in acting? 

Mapaseka Koetle  4:42
So, I came to Johannesburg. I studied. I studied. I think that first year at AFDA, I didn't understand lack of knowledge. I didn't understand what depression is. But I think I was depressed most of my time, because I'm far from home, I don't know anyone else here, I'm poor. It's just so bad. But I attended each and every class. And then I moved from AFDA to City Varsity. That's when I was relaxed, because there were kids I could relate to, everybody else at AFDA had everything. I just felt like, I don't know, I don't belong there. And then City Varsity, I finished off there. And then after that, I just had, like, odd jobs. I was a promo girl. And then after that, I went to work at Markham. And then I realized, oh, you know what? Actually, retail is gonna take most of my time. I'm not gonna be able to go to auditions as much as I wanted to. And I started going to auditions, and then I went to audition for Rhythm City. I went there, and at this time in my life, I also understood that there's time for everything. So, I understood that it doesn't mean if I go to auditions and then I don't get the role, I'm bad. It just means that it's not my role, it's Puleng’s role. 

John Manyike  5:48
And it's not your time. 

Mapaseka Koetle  05:49
It's not my time. So, I go to Rhythm City audition, and then I got a callback. So. it was between three of us. They were looking for a young, beautiful girl from school, whatever. And because I look very young on screen, I could audition for 16 year old's and stuff. Hey, you had a call back. You are so close, but yet so far my brother. You hear me. The one guy from the crew even said “you got the role, tell them it's yours.” I called back home and let them know I got a role on Rhythm City, be ready. Tell the enemies. Where? I didn’t get it. I stopped watching Rhythm City. That's how hurt I was. But a month later, I got another call to go audition for Scandal. I went to audition, and they were like, we're looking for a 16 year old. So, obviously, if they say that you must come dressed like a little girl, you know, with your natural hair. I go there, I auditioned, and I didn't get it. Two weeks after that, Scandal calls me again. In my mind, I'm thinking it's another callback because the timeframe is so close. And I go there and audition, and I was like, you know what? If I get it, God, it's mine. If it's not mine, it is well. I go in and I audition, and same day I got the role, and here I am. And I know that for a fact that there's no better person who can play Dintle the way I do. There's no better person who can play Reneilwe the way that girl who got the role did. So, that's my big breakthrough. And that's how it happened. 

John Manyike  7:19
Yeah. But there must be a particular figure or actor that inspired you, that you always looked up to. Who would that be? 

Mapaseka Koetle  7:27
Nthati Moshesh. Sis Nthati, she's so consistent. I still find her still very relevant. I love her work, and I'm glad that I could work with her on Scandal. I just love her work. I've seen her play different roles, and I just like the fact that she is human ,I don't know how to explain it because we get to meet these people now that we're in the same industry, and you realize that it is possible to be a celebrity at the same time  be human. I like people like that, and I admire her so much. 

John Manyike  7:58
When you look at your industry, I mean, there's different roles. You've gone to a couple of auditions, which roles are non-negotiable to you. Where even if they say, look, we'll give you 1 million/hour. 

Mapaseka Koetle  8:13
Nudity, I don't like undressing. 

John Manyike  8:20
You wouldn't take that one no matter what price they put on it. 

Mapaseka Koetle  8:23
I’m sorry, even if they offer me 2 million, not with nudity. I've done sex scenes before, and it's always better because the show that I'm on plays at 07:30pm, so we kiss and then we fall off and ad break. So, there’s kissing, then we breathe, we are breathing on each other. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm not, no.

John Manyike  8:46
Look, in acting, I mean, there are a lot of people who are actors, but they are not necessarily known as actors. They haven't had a big role you know. And so, as you can imagine, you know, when you start a role in acting, there are these uncertainties that comes with a role, especially in the early stages of acting. How did you navigate that phase where you're going to acting but there's this uncertainty, you know. 

Mapaseka Koetle  9:14
It almost feels like they just throw you there and you're on your own. I mean, my first day on set, because the storyline, it was about teenage pregnancy. My first day on set, I had to understand. That's why I'm saying school plays a big role. If I didn't go to school, I'm sure I was going to struggle because nobody was teaching me about single cam or three cameras or square up all those terms. I got to understand them better because that's what I learned from school. I was nervous because I was working with people who've been in the industry for long, but understanding the set, the language, it was easy because I went to school for it and understood, but I don't want to lie. My first day on set, it was hectic. My first scene was a kissing scene. I'm like, oh, my gosh, but it went very well.

John Manyike  9:59
When you're doing these gigs, I mean, acting. You're a freelancer, you know, there's no pension. Anytime they can say, we thank you for participating and that's it. How do you build a legacy for yourself, but in the same breath making sure you are able to mobilize enough funds and save something for emergencies? Because if tomorrow they say, no gig, I mean, how long will you survive? 

Mapaseka Koetle  10:25
I think I got to understand it when my first or second year at Scandal, because now you have to now negotiate rates. We should now have to have these conversations about money, uncomfortable conversations about salary. But when you have an agent, your agent will come with you and say, “Listen, you are starting up. And this is the rate that they normally give for someone who's, you know, starting up. Yes, you're from school, but you're still new.” And then you realize that, okay, you are a call actor, meaning that you get paid when you go to work. When you are off, you don't get paid. That's the meaning of a call actor. So, you get paid when you go. If your call rate is 2000 a call, it means that you get 2000 a day. It’s pay as you go. If you are not there, they're not going to pay you. And then you got to understand different types of contracts, which also helps you to understand, okay, in this type of contract that I'm in, how can I make sure that I'm able to save money? And I always say to young people who are coming up that it's so important to understand that sometimes, unfortunately, your passion is not going to give you the wealth you want. There's no money in our industry, and that's not a joke. But with this passion, which is acting that I love, what is it that I can do on the side to make sure that I create the wealth that I want or the legacy that I want for my child? And I realized that the favor or the power that I have currently is my stardom, meaning that, okay, what do I do while I'm still relevant? If they give me a 5% raise, I still act like I haven't gotten the raise. I still live within the salary that I had two months ago. That's how I survive. And I think I was very smart to save money. That's why I got to open our first restaurant when we had the coffee shop. Because I just feel like if I can afford to buy a R20,000 bag, which means I can afford to save it and save it up until it's enough for me to open a business. And I don't want to lie and say, I always wanted to have a business. It just happened because I realized how uncertain my industry is. There is no permanent. I'm not going to say, I am permanent at Scandal, I'm not. Like you said, they could wake up tomorrow and say, we're killing your character. And then what? 

John Manyike  12:44
So, you mentioned doing something on their side, I mean, how far did you go with business? 

Mapaseka Koetle  1249
 It was such a hard, beautiful, challenging lesson that I had to learn. I knew nothing about business. But I think the more you spend time with people who understand and the more you spend time with people who are like, okay, I need a group of, I don't know anything about numbers, but, I respect money. And secondly, just keeping that circle of people who are able to mentor you or help you about, okay, you've saved this amount of money. Maybe you can open this type of business. Well, the restaurant was not my passion, but I felt like they were selling this coffee shop and it was worth a try. Then obviously, Covid happened and it didn't go well. But it was a big lesson for me. Now I understand it better. With my current business, which is my clothing line, I do things differently. I'm more involved. I understand what it means to go fabric shopping. I made sure that I don't just hire people to do things for me. I am the business, meaning that I need to know everything. Now I understand the language better. 

John Manyike  13:47
So, what challenges did you experience? 

Mapaseka Koetle  13:50
Everything, starting, there is no business in life that you can have. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. Where you don't need to work with people. People can show you flames. They will steal your cheese. It's so difficult to find people who understand your vision, to find people that can help you with your business. And sometimes I think people see you going up and down. When I say people, I mean the people you've hired. Sometimes you're wondering, where am I going to get money to pay for rent this month? Where am I going to get money to pay for these people that work for you? So, it was so difficult that now you understand all I've been doing for the past two years is breaking even. What is breaking even? Making sure that the stuff is paid, the rent is paid, you have enough money to buy fabrics. So, those are the challenges. But I think, more than anything, understanding also with the business I'm in right now, the seasons. I know my good months, I know my bad months. I know what works. I know what doesn't work. But I'm not going to say, oh, I'm making millions, but I understand business better  that I'm doing it by myself. 

John Manyike  14:53
All right. So, going back to your acting career, what would you say were your career highlights? 

Mapaseka Koetle  14:59
When I won the Royal Soapie Awards, I was so new. That was the highlight of my life because that award, people voted for me. There was no panel. You know how SAFTA’s they are. There's a panel of people who are discussing about your scenes and stuff. It was an open line thing where people are voting best newcomer or best supporting actress. That was the highlight. And then it was also a sign that I'm on the right track. What I'm doing, people appreciate it and they love it and I'm here because of them. So, that was one big highlight. And I think, secondly, this new job that I just got, I can't say much about it, but the Netflix job I just got, it was a highlight. 

John Manyike  15:37
Because I guess you get used to your income on your main job. But then unless there's anything extra, then there's a crisis. 

Mapaseka Koetle  15:48
Obviously, we're living in tough times. Things are expensive. But at least I've never been in a situation where it gets so difficult that I can't make a plan some way in my savings. 

John Manyike  15:59
So, what made 2023 challenging for you? 

Mapaseka Koetle  16:03
A lot. My divorce was finalized in 2023. And moving houses is very traumatic. Moving from one space to the other. And just like life, man, it was so difficult in a way of just realizing that you are by yourself and you have to adjust and also, at the same time, just realizing that it's very important. This self-love, we talk about it all the time, up until it gets to the point where you have no choice but to practice the self-love that we talk about every day on our podcast. So, it was challenging, but it ended very well. You know, when everything else is not going right, but your career is going right. 

John Manyike  16:41
Yeah, then at least there's a hope. 

Mapaseka Koetle  16:44
Yeah, but it just shows that when there's no balance, you will feel like the world is coming to an end. Even though there's something. There are other good things to look forward to. But I came out alive when Rebecca Malope was crawling singing “moya wami”. I was the one crawling. 

John Manyike  17:01
If “Moya Wam” was a person. Now, how did you help your child adjust to this new change? Because, I mean, divorce is horrible. 

Mapaseka Koetle  17:12
Yeah, it is. It is. 

John Manyike  17:14
So, how did you manage, you know, that transition, making sure that the child is still focused? 

Mapaseka Koetle  17:20
So, the separation happened years ago. It was just that last year was the final, you know, the court thing. You know, when the divorce happened to my mom and dad, I remember so well how it affected me. And even though it was not spoken like how we do now with our kids, where you sit them down and say, okay, listen, these are going to be the changes that are going to happen. Mom is going to stay at her own house. Dad is going to stay at his own house. My mother didn’t discuss anything, we just saw today my dad was there, tomorrow he collected the TV and he was gone. So, I didn't want to repeat the same because I knew how it made me feel. And funny enough, I was at the same age as my daughter is now seven. But I remember everything. So, because I remembered everything, I didn't want her to have trauma. Obviously it's trauma, the change is traumatic. But I wanted to be able to communicate and make her understand. So, I took her to a play therapist, which has helped her a lot to understand that this is the new reality. But also, I think more than anything, the co-parenting is so great. I don't have anything bad to say about the co-parenting. There's routine and she knows I have two homes now. It was not easy, but I think because I went through it, I made sure that I communicate better and do things that I wish my mom did before.

John Manyike  18:40
So, what were the hard hard money lessons throughout the divorce? 

Mapaseka Koetle  18:44
Community of property, where's my camera? Community of property, it’s not the one, don't do it. Especially because sometimes when we are in love and we’re happy, we do go into business with our partners, you know, and then it's just so bad in every way. Not that we are planning for divorce, because sometimes people think, no, the prenup could be oh so, it means that we are planning an exit. It's not about that. 

John Manyike  19:15
It's an estate planning tool. 

Mapaseka Koetle  19:16
It is. And especially if you are in business with your partner. I think it taught me a lot that, you know what, it is very important to not move with emotions. If I would get married again, I would take my time to understand that. I think it's very important to have these discussions. And also if you are going to go into business with your partner, no matter what we in love or not, let's have open communication about this partnership because it will affect us financially. It will. So, that's the lesson number one. And I think the lesson number two is just us adjusting to two is always better than one always. So now there's no two anymore, it's one. So, now how do you live within the means of not combined salaries, but just your salary? 

John Manyike  20:05
So, what are your views to marital finances when you are married? 

Mapaseka Koetle  20:10
We should talk about it. I don't understand why it's a difficult conversation. Why is it a difficult conversation? You know what I mean? We are a couple. We are planning a future together. So I think you will hear people like, my wife doesn’t see my payslip, how? When we should be able to sit down and say, this is how much I bring. This is how much I bring. What do we want for our future? And it helps because you get to it. If we both don't understand this money conversation or money communication, we can get someone like you guys, you know, financial advisors, to come on board and say, this is how much me and my wife make, and these are our dreams and goals? You know, so I don't think people should hide things when they're in a relationship or married. Not in a relationship but married. They must talk and be transparent about money and their goals, short term goals, long term goals. Those things, they sound so boring, but they're so important. 

John Manyike  21:02
So, I hate saying as a divorcee, because that label, but it's better than return soldier. Okay, let's borrow return soldier. As a divorcee/return soldier. If you were to get married again, what would you do differently? 

Mapaseka Koetle  21:22
I'm not getting married again, my brother. But I would suggest the five... I don't know. I don't know what to call it. It might sound crazy. I would introduce review. Let’s sit down as a mother and father, let's review.  

John Manyike  21:37
So, like a party in elections. There's a term of 5 years, after that, new manifesto. 

Mapaseka Koetle  21:42
Manifesto. We must talk. Are we still on the same page? Do we still want the same things? And I'm not talking about the lovey dovey. Are we still in love? Those things we know what happens. You're gonna be in love. And then the next thing, the butterflies go away. Now it's a matter of every day, I choose you. You know what I mean? That's love. Every day. For someone to choose you every day, I think that's love. So I think, more than anything, it's just to review, do we still want the same things? Are we still cool? Let's carry on. 

John Manyike  22:11
So, are you serious that you are no longer interested in marriage? 

Mapaseka Koetle  22:13
No, no my brother.

John Manyike  22:14
Even if Mr. Right comes your way? You're good? 

Mapaseka Koetle  22:18
I’m good.

John Manyike  22:35
So, let's talk about where to from here. You're still acting. You've got this business that you're focusing on, and then you've got an opportunity with Netflix. What else? 

Mapaseka Koetle  22:50
I still feel like in terms of acting, I haven't done much in a way that I haven't played different roles. I haven't exercised all the muscles that I’d like to do for myself, not just for people. So, I still go to auditions. And when it comes to business, still trying to figure out what else can I do when it comes to entrepreneurship that can help me to be. I'm now enjoying this business thing, and I'm now understanding it better. I also have my own podcast. It's called “Mommy Diaries.”. I'm passionate about motherhood. I'm passionate about pregnancy. I'm passionate about family as much as I say I'm not going to get married again. It's a beautiful concept. It's a beautiful thing. And empower other women out there about motherhood, being in business and just doing this life thing one day at a time. 

John Manyike  23:39
Yeah. Talking about motherhood. So, your daughter, Nema, how are you teaching her about finances?

Mapaseka Koetle  23:47
When they say, kids do what you do than what you say. So, recently, she said that she started sewing because she wants to also have her own clothing store one day. So, I was like, I once went with her on set, and she was very clear that she doesn't want to be an actress because she said that I did one scene three times, and she doesn't want that. So, now she's more into, she wants to have her own Nema-Nema Lemonade. And we're having conversations about that. I think also they teach them a lot at school about business. Because she would ask me questions like, “Mommy, when you were young, did you have a cell phone?” And I'm like, cell phone? I didn't have a cell phone. You do because, you know, it's that time, and I can afford to buy you the cell phone. So, we talk about affordability. We talk about when things in the house, like, let's say, her old clothes. There's a home that we both adopted. So, when we buy clothes or we buy food for Christmas, she understands that there are kids out there who are not as privileged as her. So, we discuss, and she'll be asking me questions like, why are they not? And I'm like, you know, things. It's just like me. I was not. My mom didn't have money, so that's why we didn't have money for food and clothes. But now that I work so hard, we can, you know, help other kids out there. So, we do talk about money. The other day, her tooth fell out, and then the tooth fairy, I put R100, then I asked her, what are you gonna do with this R100? The girl blew it. On one of the “I blew it” episodes, she must go. We were also supposed to interview her. But I try my best. I'm not the best, but I try my best to teach her about the importance of saving for rainy days, the importance of this tuck shop at school. So, I'm not going to give you money for tuck shop when I gave you R100. 

John Manyike  25:35
Yeah. Let me take you back to the issue of estate planning, for example, in the context of marriage. Obviously, when you are divorced and you were married in community of  property, unless the court rules otherwise, it means half of your estate goes to the person and vice versa. So, meaning, whatever you've accumulated from the time you started your career until now gets split. So, it's almost like financially, you're halved. But for you to rebuild, knowing where you're going is nearer than where you're coming from. Do you have an aggressive plan to try and recover? Because then it means half of your life was split by the divorce. 

Mapaseka Koetle  26:25
Like, you're right. It feels like you are literally starting from scratch. But also when you look at it, it's like, what else are you going to do? I can't sit and cry for what has happened or what the things that we had to share. So, I think it's important to, like, okay, I am here now, but I think you're so right. I've been so aggressive to the point where, you know, you overwork yourself that you get sick. It's being aggressive, but also understanding that I'm not chasing this whole thing of by the age of 40, this is what I want. I'm not even about that. My aggressiveness is that it's literally me by myself starting this life thing from scratch. 

John Manyike  27:01
So, what is the wisest financial decision you ever made? 

Mapaseka Koetle  27:05
The way I was aggressive when I was saving for that coffee shop was the best because I would take. I remember one time I had a gig in Rustenburg and I had an MC gig in Bloemfontein in one day. The way I was so intentional about saving, I think it's possible. And I didn't save 10% , I saved all of it because I really felt like I need to do something than just acting. So, that was the best decision I made and which obviously led me into understanding entrepreneurship, and here I am now. 

John Manyike  27:38
Okay. So, you’re acting, you're doing this Netflix thing, and you've got this clothing line. Which other streams of income are you exploring? 

Mapaseka Koetle  27:49
Not the actual Instagram. I'm just saying, the influencer work is really good. 

John Manyike  27:54
Oh, yes. Where you're endorsing brands? 

Mapaseka Koetle  27:55
I was endorsing brands and stuff like that. But I do a lot of those. And those are the other money that comes in that I can act like I didn't see. 

John Manyike  28:07
What advice would you give to women on building their lives or even rebuild? Ok let's say, particularly women who've been through what you've gone through in terms of divorce and trying to rebuild their lives, what advice would you give to women in that situation? 

Mapaseka Koetle  28:23
I think the advice I'd give them is, first of all, accept it's happening. It has happened. Doesn't matter. Obviously, we don't know the why it led to the divorce. Accept it because now that you're here. Secondly, this syndrome that we talk about all the time of what people will say. When you're rebuilding, you should not think about what will people say. If it means that you have to downgrade that car or trade it in for, like, you know, trade it in for a smaller car that you can afford, do it because you're gonna worry about, oh, my God, when I go to Bloemfontein but they saw me with a big car. Now, I have a small car. It doesn't work like that, what will people say? But unfortunately, whether you are married or divorced or what, they will talk. Thirdly, now, obviously, like I said, things have changed. You are on your own financially, meaning that unfortunately, there are things that you are going to have to change. Whether it’s if you used to do wigs for R5 000, now you're not going to have those wigs, honey. And you have to accept that. It doesn't mean anything about you. It means that you are accepting this is how much I earn. Obviously, we don't know how present would the father be in the child's life? I mean, we hear horrific stories about single mothers who are not even helped by their baby daddies. So, even if in a case like that, just look at how much you earn, live within your means. I was just so sad that home is in Bloemfontein and obviously I can't go back to Bloemfontein because I'm still working. But if home was in Soweto. I'd go home and find myself and see what is it that I can do to better myself and understand that this is my situation, this is my financial situation. And how do I get out of this and what do I do to live within the means? If you earn R2 000 , live like a person who earns R2 000.

John Manyike  30:11
Wow. Well, Mapaseka, thank you so much. 

Mapaseka Koetle  30:15
Thank you. 

John Manyike  30:16
I think you've dropped some pearls of wisdom. And I'm sure a lot of us will learn. I don’t want to talk about bombs. But thank you so much. Thank you for joining us, and all the best for the future. 

Mapaseka Koetle  30:27
Thank you so much. Thank you.

John Manyike  30:28
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Old Mutual  30:34
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