Todd Sanders:
We are honored today to have Maricopa County attorney Rachel Mitchell joining us. Welcome.
Rachel Mitchell:
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Todd Sanders:
Well, it's so nice to have you. I know you've come and spoken to the Chamber in numerous venues, but we are so thrilled to have you on the podcast. Really appreciate you taking the time. I know you're a little busy right now.
Rachel Mitchell:
Well, happy to do it.
Todd Sanders:
Tell us about you, things that maybe people are seeing out there but maybe aren't familiar with, and then maybe something about you that we wouldn't necessarily know.
Rachel Mitchell:
Okay. Well, I'm an Arizona native. I was born and raised in Phoenix. I went to Washington High School, went to Grand Canyon University for undergrad, ASU Law School. So very much homegrown. Hobbies include that they may not know about. I'm actually a percussionist, so I play in my church's orchestra. And so people don't think I look like a percussionist, but I am.
Todd Sanders:
Well, very cool. What instrument in particular?
Rachel Mitchell:
A lot of it is timpani, but also the mallet instruments as well. So...
Todd Sanders:
Excellent. Wow, that's really good to know.
Rachel Mitchell:
Yeah.
Todd Sanders:
All right. Well, obviously very big job, but tell us a little bit about the journey to becoming county attorney and then maybe some of the achievements that you're proud of so far.
Rachel Mitchell:
Wow. Well, I'm actually a career prosecutor, and it was not really in my bucket list to become a politician. I still choke on that word a little bit, but when the situation happened with the previous county attorney and left the office in the condition that it did, I was in a position to take over and make a difference. And so I'm actually a 32-year career prosecutor, and I spent most of the time prosecuting crimes against children and prosecuting sexual assault and sex trafficking-
Todd Sanders:
Tough stuff.
Rachel Mitchell:
Very tough, but very rewarding too.
Todd Sanders:
Yeah. So at some point you decided you're going to make the transition.
Rachel Mitchell:
The board of supervisors had to choose the replacement, and so I put my name in, and they limited it to those who were able to make the ballot with the signatures. And I got on the ballot, and they chose me. And then I ran for election the first time in August and November of that year, 2022, and got elected. But because I was finishing a term, I now have to run in the regular cycle, so I'm running this year.
Todd Sanders:
No good deed goes unpunished.
Rachel Mitchell:
Absolutely not.
Todd Sanders:
We'll get back to that a little bit later, but a few things, and one of the things that I found interesting, I understand you had a role to play in the Supreme Court nomination process, specifically Brett Kavanaugh. Talk to us a little bit about that and apparently there was a little offshoot of that as well.
Rachel Mitchell:
Well, when I was in law school is when the Anita Hill, Clarence Thomas thing happened. And regardless of what side people are on that, I think we can all agree that the questions that she was asked were completely inappropriate and not helpful at all. And one of the things that I do as a sex crimes prosecutor is I train detectives and DCS workers on how to interview victims of those types of offenses. So when the Senate called me up and said, "Would you?" I was like, "Heck yeah. Of course I will." Because it gave me a chance to show you can ask probing questions that are responsibly phrased, that are consistent with research in a way that is not traumatizing to somebody and-
Todd Sanders:
Right. Not the point. Yeah.
Rachel Mitchell:
Right. To set an example. So I jumped at the chance.
Todd Sanders:
And was there something that occurred afterward? I understand there was a parody, or you appeared somewhere else that-
Rachel Mitchell:
I believe I may be the only Maricopa County attorney or Deputy Maricopa County attorney that was portrayed in Saturday Night Live. And I can tell you I sensed that that was going to happen, and that is nervousness when you're waiting for that to come on. But actually I was portrayed by Aidy Bryant, who is a local or from here, and I thought it was hysterical.
Todd Sanders:
Did they give you a heads-up that it was happening or...
Rachel Mitchell:
No. I had a sense because that was such big news that week, and I didn't know if it was going to be me, but I sensed that the whole situation was going to be portrayed.
Todd Sanders:
Wow. Very cool, and obviously historical for us here in Phoenix.
Rachel Mitchell:
Also not on my bucket list.
Todd Sanders:
Right. Yeah, I can imagine. So clearly when you came on as the new county attorney, the first round, certainly a lot of work to do, a little bit big backlog of cases, COVID. Where are we today? How have things changed in that timeframe?
Rachel Mitchell:
Yeah. I mean, when I took over, we were 20% down in personnel. And then the good news I got, I'm being sarcastic, was 20% more were eligible for retirement by the end of the year.
Todd Sanders:
Wow.
Rachel Mitchell:
And-
Todd Sanders:
Rethinking your choice at that point?
Rachel Mitchell:
Well, I was in the 20% eligible for retirement, so yes. But this office is so important, and so it had to be fixed. It had to be put up to fighting strength. So we did a very aggressive recruitment campaign. We built our numbers up, and then we could tackle the backlog. And so we had a backlog of, for example, 800 felony DUI cases that because of COVID had been charged and were sitting there but had not been fed into the court system. And so I worked with Jeff Fine, who's the Clerk of the Superior Court. Did a great job getting those done, and those have all been prosecuted.
We had another backlog of cases that had not been reviewed at all, and that was about 10,500 cases. That's a huge number because we handle probably about 50,000 submittals a year. That has been dwindled down to... We got 70% of that taken care of. The 30th percent that remains are more recent ones. You're always going to have a little bit of a backlog because you can't charge everything the day it comes in the door, but we're still working on it, and it's going great.
Todd Sanders:
Well, one of the areas where I think that speed and the efficiency has been really appreciated is in the area of organized retail theft. I know talking to colleagues in the metros around the country, one of the big challenges is the time it takes, or it's not happening. You're not doing that, and we don't seem to have the problems that other metros are having. Tell us a little bit about the strategy and what we can expect going forward.
Rachel Mitchell:
Well, I mean, I saw that too, and as I said, I'm homegrown. I don't want that to happen to Maricopa County, and I saw what was happening in L.A. and Chicago and New York City. And so what we did is we had people working on that, but not to the same degree. It was a little bit more, a higher dollar amount. So I lowered the dollar amount so that they could handle lower cases so we don't have to get to the higher dollar amount.
Todd Sanders:
So people know exactly what number to get to, but it's pretty high.
Rachel Mitchell:
Right. But we were still prosecuting below that. We just weren't having it handled by a specialized unit. So I expanded the specialized unit, and I made the announcement. We are going to prosecute it. You have DAs in other parts of the country saying, "We're not going to prosecute below $1,000." Well, to use a legal term, duh. Guess what happens?
Todd Sanders:
Yeah, 100%.
Rachel Mitchell:
And so we've made it very clear we're going to prosecute. And so what the task force does is it not only holds those people accountable, but it looks around, works with the retailers to put the cases together because these people aren't one and done. Some of these people are hitting 12 stores in a day, and we don't want it to be one small offense just on top of another. We put the amount together and then hold them accountable for the accumulated amount.
Todd Sanders:
And some people might think that these are people who are just casual shoplifters. It doesn't sound like that's the case.
Rachel Mitchell:
Not at all. Just two weeks ago I had a press conference with Chief Mike Sullivan from Phoenix PD, where we had announced the indictment of three women who had stolen about it was upwards of $600,000 in merchandise and were actually displaying it in their homes, much like a store. It looked like a store in their house, and so these are huge amounts of money. They do impact retailers, and my economics professor at Grand Canyon taught me corporations don't pay taxes. People pay taxes. Well, corporations don't pay for theft. People pay for theft.
Todd Sanders:
It's a pass-through.
Rachel Mitchell:
Absolutely. And it affects people, and in this economy, it affects people even more.
Todd Sanders:
So compared to the other metros, where do we stand in terms of the level of severity here in Phoenix?
Rachel Mitchell:
We are seeing it, but we are not seeing it to the same degree, and we are absolutely reacting and holding them accountable. I know that when they are arrested and the bonds are set, some of them express shock because they're coming here from other parts of the country where bonds are not set. And so they're horrified that they're going to stay in jail for this. But I've been saying in my press conferences, "If you come here from another state to do this, plan to stay."
Todd Sanders:
Right.
Rachel Mitchell:
And so we're holding them in on bond, and we're putting them in prison.
Todd Sanders:
No catch and release here.
Rachel Mitchell:
No catch and release.
Todd Sanders:
Yeah. That's absolutely tremendous. Another area that certainly has been talked about on a national level and certainly here in Arizona is fentanyl, and I know you're a national leader there. Talk to us a little bit about what's happening on that front.
Rachel Mitchell:
Well, I went down to the border three or four weeks ago, and all roads lead to Maricopa County. We are seeing a huge influx of it. The DEA is telling us that of all the fentanyl seized in the United States in 2022 and 2023, over half of it was seized in Arizona. And of course the majority of that's going to be in Maricopa County because we're the largest county. And what we saw were checkpoints that were unmanned because they have pulled the border agents off the checkpoints and put them in the intake facilities to put people into our country. I saw evidence of people coming across the border, not at checkpoints, carrying large packs that are full of fentanyl. What we're seeing now is not just pills, but we're seeing the powder because you can compact the powder and carry more of it into the country, huge amounts. Our own medical examiner from Maricopa County has told us that the overdose deaths, largely from fentanyl now, have gone up over 5,000% since 2015. So it's killing our people, and it's coming across the border.
Todd Sanders:
Kids as well. I mean, kids aren't immune to that.
Rachel Mitchell:
Mostly. Mostly young people or kids.
Todd Sanders:
So in terms of enforcement, how are we attacking that?
Rachel Mitchell:
Well, we're attacking in different ways. Obviously if it's somebody who is involved in the smuggling or transportation of it, manufacture, even if they're pressing the pills, we're treating them very harshly, and prison is in their future. If it's somebody on the other hand who has an addiction issue who is really not committing other crimes, or they're committing low-level property crimes to support an addiction, we have a really robust diversion program. So what that is, is we allow them to go to treatment. And if they successfully complete treatment, then they don't have a permanent felony on their records. So it's easier for them to get a job, easier for them to get a nice place to stay, easier for them to stay off of drugs.
Todd Sanders:
And are you finding people are amenable to that path?
Rachel Mitchell:
Some are, some aren't. And those that are not amenable to it, they get prosecuted. Those that are, we are seeing an incredible success rate. We actually track repeat offenders by rearrests, not a re-conviction. So the rate for a rearrest within Arizona for somebody that successfully completes our diversion program is under 9%. You can't find that anywhere in the criminal justice system.
Todd Sanders:
That's incredible.
Rachel Mitchell:
So we're doing a great job. They're doing a great job.
Todd Sanders:
And that's with the county?
Rachel Mitchell:
We're actually using ARPA funds that might go away, but the county is going to supplement those to pay for private organizations to help us.
Todd Sanders:
So longer term, what do you see in terms of how we stop this flow of fentanyl and address it in a real way?
Rachel Mitchell:
I think it can't be just one size fits all because people are going to find a way if there is a market. There's no question about that because there's too much money involved in this. So we have to address it through education. So for example, we have regular fentanyl forums where we educate parents and people who deal with kids and kids on the dangers of it because a lot of them don't know, and they don't understand it, that it's a poison. 7 out of 10 pills that come across our border have a potentially lethal dose, and so education. So I mean, the best possible outcome is it never starts, and then of course we have diversion for people who are addicted that it did start. And then with the others who are bringing it into our community, we put them in prison.
Todd Sander:
Absolutely. And I think to the earlier point about organized retail, that this isn't a casual dealer out there.
Rachel Mitchell:
No.
Todd Sanders:
These are pretty organized crimes [inaudible 00:13:27] I'm assuming.
Rachel Mitchell:
Absolutely. And what we're seeing a little bit differently with fentanyl than we saw in the past is they're recruiting people from this side of the border to go to the other side of the border and drive things back. And so we're seeing Americans, a lot of young Americans, college age, even high school age, going across the border, picking up loads, and driving back. And if you talk to my counterpart down in Cochise County, Brian McIntyre, he'll tell you they are instructed to drive as fast as they can because the thought being there won't be anybody chasing them at that speed, and they have seen a number of traffic deaths.
Todd Sanders:
And of course there are helicopters.
Rachel Mitchell:
Yes.
Todd Sanders:
Yeah. So it's not like you're going to get away.
Rachel Mitchell:
Right.
Todd Sanders:
Okay. Aside from those two significant issues, what other areas are you currently working on?
Rachel Mitchell:
Well, I think one of the big overall issues that touches every area of the criminal justice system is the bail amounts. There had been a steady effort to lower bail amounts in Maricopa County to letting pretty much everybody out except for the most serious. And I think the attorneys in the office got lulled into a sense of, "Well, I'm not going to ask for anything or advocate because I'm not going to get it." And so I made it very clear, "You're going to ask for what's appropriate. If we don't get it, that's not on us." And so what we have seen, because they're advocating for it, bail amounts are going back up again so that we don't have these people getting out this revolving door of justice, because we have fewer cops on the street. We know that. All of the agencies have issues. I mean, Phoenix is down, for example, 600 or more. They can't afford to have to rearrest and rearrest the same person for the same thing, and so bail really impacts their ability to police the cities.
Todd Sanders:
And it's a significant issue all around. To your point, it impacts everybody. Thinking about, well, the diversion program is one thing, but thinking about somebody who's gone in, did a crime, did the time and is now out, paid their debt to society, how should we be thinking about them in terms of employability?
Rachel Mitchell:
There are different things within the statutes that allow of varying degrees of restoration, I'll say. You can get your civil rights back, for example. You can have expungement, you can have your records sealed depending on the type of crime. So I think it's a valid discussion to have because what you don't want to do is keep your figurative foot on their neck so that they can never succeed. And so if you allow them to show that they can live as a law-abiding citizen, and I'm not talking about serious offenses, of course, then they can have a better place to live. They can get a job, they can go to school. I mean, that's what we want. We want them to succeed.
Todd Sanders:
Ultimately, that's the goal versus going back into the system.
Rachel Mitchell:
Exactly.
Todd Sanders:
And thinking about when we're looking at the system, mental health, is that playing into some of the calculations that you're having to look at when you're working on these cases?
Rachel Mitchell:
Yes. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The criminal justice system is a poor substitute for a mental health system.
Todd Sanders:
I heard that from the former sheriff as well.
Rachel Mitchell:
Yeah.
Todd Sanders:
You had the same challenges.
Rachel Mitchell:
Yeah. And it's unfortunate because without an adequate mental health system, you're forcing the criminal justice system to make a decision. Do I let this person out, and they're a danger to society? Or do I keep them in even though I know they have a mental health issue? I really wish that there were more ways that we could respond to mental health issues. We're not talking about people who are faking it to get a lighter sentence. We're talking about genuine mental health issues here.
Todd Sanders:
And it seems like you're stabilizing them. And once they're stable, then they're back out again, and then they destabilize them. So it's a vicious cycle that you're having to deal with.
Rachel Mitchell:
Right, right. They don't take their medicine or whatever.
Todd Sanders:
And obviously something that policy makers have to be looking at.
Rachel Mitchell:
Yes.
Todd Sanders:
Speaking of policy makers, elections are right around the corner. I guess we can't ignore it.
Rachel Mitchell:
Yeah.
Todd Sanders:
But certainly I…
Rachel Mitchell:
I've tried.
Todd Sanders:
Yeah, me too. But thinking outside of your election, want to make sure that people feel like it's a safe place where you can go and cast your ballot for whoever you want.
Rachel Mitchell:
Yep.
Todd Sanders:
How are you looking at that, and what should we be thinking about?
Rachel Mitchell:
Well, I mean, just personally, I mean, obviously I'm a candidate, so there's nobody that wants a fair and free election more than I do. But as the county attorney, as you know, I represent by statute the board of supervisors as well as the county recorder, and that includes the elections department as well. And so I'm in regular contact with them. I'm in a situation where I'm giving them advice, but I know that they have publicly talked about some of the changes that they've made to address some of the issues that have happened in the past. They've added some personnel, and so very hopeful that it goes very smoothly.
Todd Sanders:
So for the person out there that's saying, "I hear these things, and I wonder, and I don't know, and..." What would you tell them in terms of the election?
Rachel Mitchell:
Don't get discouraged. I mean, certainly things happened last time with the printers. Don't get discouraged to the point where you're believing every single thing that you're hearing on, for example, Twitter about the elections, to the point where you don't cast your ballot. That's what I am fearful will happen is that people just give up on the system, and that's a real problem. So cast your ballot and understand that there are people in government who want the same thing you do. They want to see free and fair elections.
Todd Sanders:
Absolutely. Thinking ahead, obviously, I mean, I can't imagine beyond all the things we've talked about today and the magnitude of those things. Looking ahead, what are some of the things you're thinking about for the future in terms of some of the work you want to do?
Rachel Mitchell:
Well, in the upcoming term, I want to really get a hold of youth violence because we've obviously seen very high-profile coverage of that in the Southeast Valley, but that's just one area of Maricopa County, and we're seeing it across the valley. We're seeing a lot of youths who have guns, and we need to address that. We're seeing, for example, young people who have Glock switches, which essentially convert a gun into a machine gun. And so all of that needs to be addressed both through legislation as well as education and programs as well.
Todd Sanders:
Well, and I think it's interesting you should talk about this. It is high profile, and so it's easy to think, "Well, it's just over there." But I think what you're saying is don't be lulled into that.
Rachel Mitchell:
Right. It was covered heavily, and so it gives you that sense of that. But the reality is we have it throughout the valley, and we want to make sure that if people are seeing this kind of thing, I did a little video not too long ago for Twitter saying, "Don't post. Report." It's amazing how many people think that if they put something on Twitter that that's somehow getting it to the authorities' attention. No, the police are the investigative body, not the county attorney, not anybody else. And they need to go to the police and give them the copies of the video or whatever they have, give them the information they have so that it can be thoroughly investigated.
Todd Sanders:
Well, and it's such a good point. And just because you post it doesn't mean it happened.
Rachel Mitchell:
Exactly. That's also true.
Todd Sanders:
So you hear a lot, and I'm just thinking about nationally about fairness and how people are treated or adjudicated. How do you ensure that people have a fair shake when they enter the system?
Rachel Mitchell:
It comes from the top down, and I meet with every single new employee in the office, not just attorneys, and I talk to them about what the concept of justice truly means. Now, I've worked there a long time, and I've seen people that lean more toward justice being all about punishment and all about vengeance. And what I talk to them about is, it's actually a Bible verse, but it's just a good saying, which is seek justice, love mercy, and walk humbly. And the word for justice that's used there is a word that means do right by. It's a broader concept than punishment and vengeance.
And then it's only in that concept that mercy makes sense. The mercy of looking at an addict and saying, "Someday I want you to be able to succeed in society. I don't want to keep my foot on your throat." And then walking humbly, I can tell you as somebody who prosecuted some of the worst of the worst cases. I mean, people who did things that would physically make you ill. If you get outside your professional role, if you get outside that lane and make it so personal, that's when you get out of whack, and you have to-
Todd Sanders:
Lose perspective.
Rachel Mitchell:
Yeah. You lose perspective, and you lose your best for the victim. And so we talk about that, and we have reinforced that.
Todd Sanders:
What a great way of looking at it, and I think it hits those three points that are so, so important. As we're wrapping up, what is the one thing that you think people should know and don't necessarily understand about the criminal justice system?
Rachel Mitchell:
Well, I know that a lot of people don't understand what the county attorney's office does. I mean, we are the main prosecutor in Maricopa County for most of the first 5 or 10 minutes that you watch the news, unless it rains. Rain always comes first, I've noticed that.
Todd Sanders:
That's true.
Rachel Mitchell:
But that there are very dedicated people within this office. They're not there to get rich. They're not there to get famous. They're there to serve the community. And so if you have been a victim of a crime, report it because there are people who will fight for you and who want to give you a voice and want to give you an ear. So to have confidence in it that way.
Todd Sanders:
You bet. And what would be the difference for people who maybe are asking the question? So what's the difference between the county attorney and the attorney general?
Rachel Mitchell:
We have general jurisdiction. The attorney general has a statewide jurisdiction, but has more limited types of offenses that they normally concern themselves with. But we have the general jurisdiction to prosecute the felonies that happen within Maricopa County-
Todd Sanders:
Maricopa County specifically. Well, thank you-
Rachel Mitchell:
So we're better than they are.
Todd Sanders:
You heard it here first. Well, I want to thank you for spending so much time with us and for really the thoughtful way that you're approaching this, and I know that from our perspective, we've had a lot of questions about fentanyl. We've had questions about organized retail theft, and you've always been available to answer questions and also to take feedback, and it means a lot. We're not going to let you go without doing a quick lightning round. So we're going to ask, what was your first job?
Rachel Mitchell:
My first job was... Okay. My dad had a business where he imported corn from Texas for Mexican food manufacturers here because there's no humidity in Arizona, and so the corn is not as good for that. And he would collect the burlap bags and sell those after the truck was unloaded, and I would drive a pickup truck with about 3,000 burlap bags and sell them.
Todd Sanders:
Nice. And what did you learn?
Rachel Mitchell:
What did I learn from that?
Todd Sanders:
Yes.
Rachel Mitchell:
How to be very careful with 3,000 burlap bags on the back of your truck.
Todd Sanders:
I could imagine.
Rachel Mitchell:
But you know what? You learn to keep going. He didn't just look at it. My dad, he grew up on a farm in Arkansas, and he was older. He grew up during the depression.
Todd Sanders:
Much different generation.
Rachel Mitchell:
Much different generation. And he didn't just stop there and well, there's my job. I've imported the corn, and it's been unloaded. He's like, "What next? How can I do it next?"
Todd Sanders:
Well, interesting analogy for what you do today.
Rachel Mitchell:
Yeah.
Todd Sanders:
Right?
Rachel Mitchell:
Very.
Todd Sanders:
First concert?
Rachel Mitchell:
First concert.
Todd Sanders:
Maybe it was at Compton Terrace if you grew up here.
Rachel Mitchell:
No. I think it was at Veterans Memorial.
Todd Sanders:
Okay.
Rachel Mitchell:
Okay. So because I played in a church orchestra, so I liked churchy music. Amy Grant.
Todd Sanders:
Oh, I love Amy Grant.
Rachel Mitchell:
Yeah.
Todd Sanders:
Excellent. And first car?
Rachel Mitchell:
First car was a Buick Skylark.
Todd Sanders:
All right.
Rachel Mitchell:
Yeah.
Todd Sanders:
Very respectable. Well, thank you again for spending the time with us and for always being so responsive and so dedicated to not only the business community, but the people of Maricopa County.
Rachel Mitchell:
Oh, thank you very much. Anytime.