Todd Sanders (Host):

Well, welcome back to the podcast. Today, we have a really special surprise. We have two great guests. We have John Moody, who is a... We'll talk about his day job, but his second job is the chair of our PAC, our Political Action Committee, and we also have returning Mike Huckins, who is Senior Vice President of Public Affairs and Technology for the Chamber. Gentlemen, welcome back.

John Moody (Guest):

Hey, good to be here.

Todd Sanders (Host):

It's good to have you.

Mike Huckins (Guest):

Yeah, it's great. Thanks for having us.

Todd Sanders (Host):

Mr. Moody, maybe we will let people know kind of what your day job is and also maybe something about you that we wouldn't find on your resume.

John Moody (Guest):

Wow. So well, my day job, so a little bit about myself. I am an attorney. I've practiced in the Phoenix area for 30 years, come from an old Arizona family, my family's been here since pioneer days. I've practiced in the valley, started my career as a deputy county attorney, a felony prosecutor, then transitioned into the private practice. And about 20 years ago, I started focusing almost exclusively on government relations and state level lobby.

Todd Sanders (Host):

For the forces of good.

John Moody (Guest):

Right, for all, for the forces of good. The something about me that my resume may not show, it may be a hint to it on my resume, but a lot of people look at me and my family and they think political lawyer prosecutor with a political background. In college, I was a biology major. And when I graduated from college, I actually debated about, one, going to law school, or two, going to Costa Rica to work on a sea turtle conservation project.

Todd Sanders (Host):

I'm sure dad loved that.

John Moody (Guest):

I chose law school, and I think I made the wrong decision.

Todd Sanders (Host):

We can get to that later. Costa Rica definitely would be okay. And obviously, this podcast won't be coming out today. Today's your birthday, so happy birthday.

John Moody (Guest):

Yes. Thank you very much.

Todd Sanders (Host):

I was saying to you before we started, you look like the John Moody that I met way back when. So you're aging well, and we're happy that you're here with us. So thank you. Obviously, we know Mike, and certainly, we know a little bit more about him. But Mike, quickly, what was the big summer vacation that you had this year?

Mike Huckins (Guest):

Sure. Yeah, I went back to England, so the one question I get for the resume question is I was born in England. Not many people know that since the accent is long gone. But I was born there, so I try to go back every now and then and see some family. So got to do that for a couple of weeks this year at the beginning of July, managed to escape in between the political craziness, which we're going to talk about today. So that was my big summer plans this year.

Todd Sanders (Host):

Well, good news, I hear that the Homeland let you back in.

Mike Huckins (Guest):

They did. They did. Checks now and then, but they let me in.

Todd Sanders (Host):

Always telling you go, yes. Well, again, thanks for being here. I really appreciate it. Maybe let's start with something a little current, and it'll still be current when this comes out. We just had, I guess probably the one and only debate between former President Trump and Vice President Harris. What's the takeaways there? We'll start with you, John.

John Moody (Guest):

I think, like a lot of folks in this political environment, we're living in unique days, and it seems like it's a first every time we turn around. And that debate was interesting. It was unique. And it seems like we continue to have new and new things for the first time. I don't know. They're interesting, they're dramatic, they can be colorful. What's frustrating to me is I don't feel like much policy is discussed in these debates today. I wish there were less drama, more civility, more policy.

Todd Sanders (Host):

Yeah. I couldn't... For all of us, policy wonks, I, a hundred percent, agree. It would be great to be able to debate the issues. Mike, thoughts from you?

Mike Huckins (Guest):

Yeah, there were definitely, as John said, some interesting moments in the debate. It would've been nice to see them, especially for the Chamber, at least focus on some economic issues, workforce inflation, that kind of stuff. Unfortunately, as debates go, they like to bait each other, and there was definitely some of that going on, a lot of personal attacks. So it was unfortunate to see that, but not to be unexpected in these political times. So it'd be nice if they could have done some more issue focused talks, but understood that part of the game is going after each other and it's just the nature of the beast these days.

Todd Sanders (Host):

Yeah. And it's hard to really get a read on a candidate when you're looking at a flyer or watching one of these debates. And that's why I think the PAC is so important, because we really get into some really deep questions. Maybe, starting with you, John, I remember when you became chairman, talk a little bit about how long you've been chair and why you still do it. It's certainly not for the salary of zero, but certainly, it's been something that it's had a huge impact for the business community. But why are you still involved?

John Moody (Guest):

Yeah, really pleased to continue to serve as a chairman of the PAC and always look forward to it. It's hard to believe how long it's been since I've been involved in this PAC. Started thinking about it, and looking back, I joined the chamber board, I was asked to serve on the chamber board in 2004, 20 years ago. It's hard to imagine that, right? But it's hard to imagine I've practiced law for over 30 years. But a lot of time has been spent with the Chamber, and I've really enjoyed doing that.

The PAC, I got involved with the PAC also in 2004, being asked to serve as chairman in 2007. So I've served as the chairman for 17 years. It doesn't seem like it's been that long. I've worked with... I've had different faces. I mean, you were in Mike's shoes at one point, there were people before you. I've done this for a long time. But I enjoy doing it, because it's important, it's interesting, and it's something that I think that the members of the Chamber and our citizens in this community really value. And we can really do something important to help our citizens, our business members better understand the political process and help support those political candidates that can really help us and make this a better place to live.

Todd Sanders (Host):

Absolutely. And I think maybe for folks who don't necessarily understand the process, obviously, we don't just get in a room and put a list of names down and then just decide what we're going to do. Talk about the process and maybe the length of time that we put into this work.

Mike Huckins (Guest):

Sure. It's definitely a huge time commitment, not only for Chamber staff, but for the volunteers, like John, who come in and do it. They have their own day jobs, but they're spending a ton of time with us, getting through these legislative and local candidates.

So the general process is we will send out a questionnaire to all candidates, regardless of what party they're running for, what office. If we're looking to endorse those races, we will send out questionnaires to all of them. So all the candidates out there, make sure you check your email, the most important point. You can't respond if you don't check your email. So we will get a fair number for those questionnaires back. We'll sort of go through and grade them, so to speak, run them by the PAC chair, the PAC committee, and say, "These are the ones staff think we should bring in for interviews based on their responses to that questionnaire." We'll do about a 20 to 30 minute interview with each candidate that we bring in, again, both at the legislative and city, and sometimes county levels.

Todd Sanders (Host):

And let me just real quick interject.

Mike Huckins (Guest):

Yeah.

Todd Sanders (Host):

When we do it, do we stick to one party?

John Moody (Guest):

No.

Todd Sanders (Host):

Or another? I mean, how does that... Maybe talk about that a little bit?

Mike Huckins (Guest):

Yeah, no, we bring in... If you're running for the legislature, doesn't matter what party you're running for. As long as you're adhering to Chamber principles, we will bring in for an interview. If you get someone far off on one side or the other, probably not, but for the most part, if you're in a gray area, so to speak, we try to bring you in and have you meet with the Chamber PAC board members to do it.

And some of those interviews, at least on legislative side, last week's been two full days in a room. So like I said before, it's a huge time commitment, especially for the PAC board members. And we have a great PAC board. I mean, John does a great job leading it. But the industries that are covered on that board are broad, and we really have people that lean in and care about the business community and want to select the best candidates for the legislature.

So after they get done with their interview, the PAC board will vote. And we have an interesting scenario on our PAC board. You have to have the super majority vote to in order to be endorsed by the Greater Phoenix Chamber PAC board. So I think that only solidifies that we select the most business-friendly candidates. And then from there on, you're endorsed by the Chamber, and then we'll selectively make financial contributions depending on the need and the resources of the Chamber.

Todd Sanders (Host):

And your role, John, I think, is really important, because you're helping shepherd this pretty significant and very involved process. What's your philosophy? How do you make it look so easy on the outside, but the results obviously speak for themselves?

John Moody (Guest):

Yeah. So you asked an important question of, does it matter what party you are? No, we like to emphasize we don't care what political party a candidate is a part of, or any political party, frankly. We care what your positions are on issues that are important to our business community, to our businesses. So the role we play, there's a lot. There's a lot that goes into the process, and I think that's where there's a lot of value that we offer to our members and to those that watch our PAC process.

Mike talks about the legislature. And you started this conversation with the presidential debate. The presidential debates get a lot of attention. The congressional debates can get a ton. US senate races get a little bit more attention. But sometimes the races that don't get a lot of attention are the legislative races. And we have to remember that we have 30 districts in this state, 30 legislative districts, two representatives for each district and one Senate seat for each district. So we have 90 seats to be elected for each legislature, with hundreds of candidates running for those seats.

So my philosophy leading the PAC board is, like Mike mentioned, we have a incredible PAC board. The government affairs professionals that serve on this PAC are the best. They are the best of the best, they're professional, they're knowledgeable. They really do an extraordinary job dedicating their time and volunteering their time for this purpose. But we spend a lot of time and a lot of careful deliberation on looking at incumbents records, looking at new candidates positions on the issues, and then vetting them, identifying the pro-business candidates, and then supporting those we think should be elected to office.

Todd Sanders (Host):

Well, and it is a significant process, and certainly, staff, as we work towards getting you all together, one of the big things we do is we put together a big dossier on everyone, including incumbents. And you want to talk about the incumbents a little bit too?

Mike Huckins (Guest):

Yeah. So the incumbents are graded mostly on their voting record. They've had the history there, so it's pretty easy to see whether they're voting with us or against us. Some other factors go into that a little bit, whether they meet with us on a consistent basis, whether they attend our events. But I would say the vast majority for incumbents are based on their voting records. And like I said, it's pretty easy to see if a candidate's... There are some on the bubble, but it's fairly easy to see if a candidate from either party is going to be on our endorsement list or not. There's always those ones a little bit on the edges, but for the most part, it's pretty cut and dry.

Todd Sanders (Host):

So to that point, have we had instances where we had an incumbent that perhaps we endorsed in the last election, but based on their votes during this legislative session, we didn't endorse?

John Moody (Guest):

We have had that situation, and as Mike pointed out, one of the things that we do differently than some of the other PACs is that we do require a super majority vote to endorse a candidate. And that can sometimes... Even if a candidate or an incumbent has support within our PAC board, if they don't have a super majority vote, they will not receive the endorsement because of the way we base our scoring on an incumbent record. One vote on one bill of significance to the business community might keep that incumbent from getting an endorsement where we might've endorsed them before. But the way that I like to characterize it is I like our endorsements to be consensus votes, consensus decisions, not close calls. We want to get it right. We want to truly endorse those that are pro-business.

Todd Sanders (Host):

Absolutely. And having the opportunity to sit on in those meetings, it is, by and large, consensus, which is great because we're following, I think, a really good foundation.

Mike, your perspective. These are lengthy questionnaires, and incumbents are incumbents and they have a voting record, but for somebody that's, "Hey, I'm a small business owner. And I don't like what's happening down there, so I'm going to run for the legislature." We'll ask pretty in-depth questions, for instance, on the water, which is admittedly a very difficult topic. Talk to us about that experience for candidates? And what would your advice be when you get to a question on water and you're thinking, "I don't know." Do I fake it? Do I get on the internet? Do I ask ChatGPT? What do you suggest?

Mike Huckins (Guest):

Yeah, my philosophy, being a former legislative staffer, is never get to the podium and guess. You want to say, "I don't know, and I'll find out the answer and get back to you." I think I respect that more in questionnaires than when people try to fake it. It doesn't happen too often, but you will get somewhere. You can see that they're going off a little bit of a tangent. So like you mentioned, Todd, we ask a lot of questions on a lot of different subjects, so nobody's going to be an expert on everything. And I think the PAC board respects that when they see that to say, "Hey, I'm not an expert on this issue, but I'm willing to listen to organization X or person Y to understand more about it and make an informed decision, including the Chamber, depending on what the issue is when I get down there and I get elected."

John Moody (Guest):

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, those of us that have been in this business for a long time, I mean, we can't pretend to know everything about every issue. And there's so much. There's so many policy issues addressed to the Capitol and the legislature. And those candidates that will honestly say, "I don't know, but I'm willing to talk to the experts," are often the best candidates. I mean, the ones you have to be concerned about are those that are experts on everything.

Todd Sanders (Host):

Day one.

Mike Huckins (Guest):

Right out of college.

Todd Sanders (Host):

Right. Well, let me ask you this, John, because clearly, nobody agrees on everything, do we endorse candidates where we don't have full agreement? For instance, let's say that there are a couple issues, we don't necessarily agree with them, but others we do, is that an immediate disqualifier?

John Moody (Guest):

No. There may be a candidate out there we probably had some that have had a hundred percent scores on. I know we've had those, a hundred percent scores on those bills we identify for their scoring, but it'd be impossible to know whether they've agreed with everything, everyone on the PAC board. I think that'd be unlikely. But do we endorse those that may disagree with us on issues? Of course. And we try to... We don't look at every vote they've taken. For an incumbent and for a new candidate, we look at their position and their votes for an incumbent on a select few bills that we have identified as our priority bills, fall within the guiding principles of our Chamber, the mission of our Chamber. And if a candidate or an incumbent is aligned with us on those issues, if they disagree with us on something else, that certainly doesn't disqualify them for our endorsement.

Todd Sanders (Host):

That seems to fall sort of at odds with today's current political environment, which it doesn't matter what side you're on, by the way, "If you're not with me a hundred percent, you're against me." How does that drive with sort of the politics of today?

John Moody (Guest):

When you've done something as long as we have, I think we all yearn for better discourse, more civil discourse. Regardless of the party you may be involved in, regardless of the issue, we can all disagree. Whether it's the Chamber versus a legislator or different candidates, we can all disagree on the issues. We're never going to agree on everything, but we ought to be able to have an intelligent conversation about our disagreements and do the best we can within the legislative process or within the stakeholder process, wherever it might be, to reach a solution that tries to address both sides concerns and hopefully advances the ball. Right? I wish we had more of that.

Mike Huckins (Guest):

Yeah, agree. I think sometimes it's the most important thing that the candidate or incumbent will be willing to meet with the Chamber, understand from our side, "This is why we think this is a good idea," or a bad idea, depending on what it is. And we're pretty frank with folks and try to do our best to say, "This is why the other side thinks it's either a bad or good idea on the other side." So as long as they meet with us, they're having this conversation and they vote with us the majority of the time, those bills where they don't agree with us, it's acceptable, it's understood.

Todd Sanders (Host):

So you have a tough job also in that we don't send a form letter or an email when we don't endorse.

Mike Huckins (Guest):

Right.

Todd Sanders (Host):

You actually call-

Mike Huckins (Guest):

Yeah.

Todd Sanders (Host):

... every one of those people. And I've done that, and that's not fun.

Mike Huckins (Guest):

It's not fun.

Todd Sanders (Host):

Can those be productive calls, and are they?

Mike Huckins (Guest):

Yeah. I think sometimes they can be. Sometimes they're not and you'll get a short response, and that's totally fair and understood. But other times they want to understand a little deeper, "Well, why?" And while we don't get into too many specifics because what the PAC board discusses is confidential, we can sort of give them some pointers and say, "Hey, maybe on this area, brush up a little bit," or, "We'd love to maybe talk with you a little more on this subject."

And then there's sometimes where between the primary election and the general election, we'll have those discussions with them, and the PAC board may decide, "Hey, we didn't endorse them in the primary for this reason." But the general, we've had some discussions with them, they've listened to us, and we think they're worth a second look, and they've endorsed in that case.

John Moody (Guest):

Yeah, I mean, it's important to realize that this is not a year assignment. It's just not. Our efforts are not just focused on that particular session. Some of these legislators serve for many years out there. Some of them serve and leave and come back. And we have to work with the legislature for years, and we have to be cognizant of that. A lot of candidates may not have received our endorsement early on, and we've worked with them and we've talked with them and tried to educate them from our position here, try to understand their position, and some have evolved to where we have endorsed them later in the process. So it's an evolving, continuing process.

Todd Sanders (Host):

Absolutely. So right after the debate, I believe, there was a big endorsement that came out from Taylor Swift, which seemed to almost eclipse the debate, which was incredible. So clearly, people talk about endorsements. We have an endorsement process, and we released those. What's the impact of endorsements by business groups like the Chamber on legislative races?

John Moody (Guest):

Our process is important to help vet those issues that others may not be paying attention to. The legislative issues, the city council issues, looking at ordinance policy, regulatory policy. How impactful can a celebrity endorsement be? Very impactful. How impactful can a Chamber of Commerce endorsement be? I hope that we can make it very impactful. And it's more difficult, it won't get the attention, but look, the PAC was started, if I'm correct, 40 some years ago. 1978, I think, is when this PAC began. The Phoenix Chamber has been an integral part of this community forever, since we had a community. And the PAC since 1978 has participated in this process of vetting candidates and trying to help our citizenry vote for the best candidates who will help our businesses.

I hope that through podcasts like this, through all the work that Mike does and your team does, we get the word out and that our members pay attention. People from outside of membership might pay attention that, "Hey, look, the Phoenix Chamber has vetted these candidates, has looked at all these issues and examined all these questionnaires in detail, and this is who they think would be best." I know we carry a lot of credibility as the Chamber of Commerce. I know our endorsements mean a lot to the candidates, and I hope that our endorsements also mean a lot with our members and our citizenry.

Todd Sanders (Host):

You bet. Mike, so this session or this legislative election, I should say election, what offices have we used the endorsement process for?

Mike Huckins (Guest):

Yeah. So we endorsed 52 total candidates. The majority of those were for the legislature, just because there's 90 seats that we have to make decisions on. We also endorsed for some county races, and the city of Phoenix, city council elections are up this year, so we have the Mayor up for re-election along with four districts for the city council. So we made endorsement decisions in all three of those pots.

Todd Sanders (Host):

Well, and I think about what John mentioned just a few minutes ago, these are races that have an impact on our daily lives and the daily lives of business.

Mike Huckins (Guest):

Yes.

Todd Sanders (Host):

I think that's what makes it important. How do we choose where we're going to endorse?

John Moody (Guest):

Well, every election cycle can be different. And there's been times where we focus exclusively on the legislature. We haven't got into the county, city races. And then there are those election cycles where we feel it's important enough to weigh in. I think one of the races that we engaged in this year that we haven't in the last few years is the race for Maricopa County attorney. And I think one of our reasons for, I think, getting into that race was crime is an important subject right now, and having a safe and secure crime-free community is critical for our businesses, critical for our citizens, and is very important. And in this particular climate, we think that it's important to look at that race and have supported a candidate, which we think will provide the most safe and secure environment.

Mike Huckins (Guest):

Absolutely.

John Moody (Guest):

That's an example.

Todd Sanders (Host):

And certainly, when there's a gubernatorial election, we'll engage there, but we're routinely asked to engage on the federal elections, and that's not something we usually play in. You want to speak to that a little bit?

John Moody (Guest):

Yeah. So our PAC is... There are different kinds of PACs. There are federal PACs, and then there are state PACs. We are not a federal PAC, so we don't get involved in federal elections. We don't have the ability to contribute as an entity. So we, of course, watch those races, we look at how they might impact the legislative races of local races, but we do not interview federal candidates. We do not endorse federal candidates, and we do not contribute to federal candidates as a PAC.

Todd Sanders (Host):

Okay. And Mike, you mentioned our endorsement processes here, the fact that we endorse 52 candidates. If folks are interested, since this will come up before the election, where can they find those endorsements?

Mike Huckins (Guest):

Yeah. Well, hopefully, the staff will provide a link to that in this podcast. I'm sure there's a little handy button for that.

Todd Sanders (Host):

Yeah, they're pretty good.

Mike Huckins (Guest):

Yes. We also have it on our website, and we'll also be producing a voter guide that will include not only our candidate endorsements, but how the chamber board ultimately ends up on a number of different ballot issues. There's a number of those out there this year that the PAc doesn't formally weigh in on, but it's still important for the Chamber to have a position on some of these ballot issues. Because there's a lot of them this year.

Todd Sanders (Host):

Absolutely. And John mentioned contributions. We have a very, I think, specific kind of PAC, maybe speak to that a little bit, and also the importance of contributions by members of the community who want to help support our efforts.

Mike Huckins (Guest):

Yeah, it's a great question. So we have what's called an Arizona NOW Mega PAC, It used to be called Super PAC, but everybody, to your point earlier, got confused with all the federal PACs. So it's now called a Mega PAC, which allows us as an entity to contribute twice as much if the PAC board chooses to do so as what regular PACs can do in any given election cycle. So that means a lot to the Chamber, and especially to candidates. If you're able to give that amount of money to a specific candidate, that's a big deal. It's not easy to qualify for that designation however. You have to have, minimum, 500, minimum $10 contributions from individuals, so no corporations or businesses can give money. It has to come from individuals, which doesn't sound like a huge deal when you're asking Chamber members and our friends and family to give $10, but sometimes that's a heavy lift to make sometimes.

So we've had the designation of having that for a number of years now. We're in the middle of that process of getting that redesignation currently. Hopefully, by the time next December rolls around, we'll have good news, and we'll still have that designation.

Todd Sanders (Host):

And those contributions can make a difference.

Mike Huckins (Guest):

Yeah.

John Moody (Guest):

They can make a difference. It's expensive to run for office in today's world. And things like we may pay little attention sometimes, we may look at them and glance and throw them, but for a candidate like a legislature city council to do something as simple as a mailer, it is expensive to create those and mail them. It's expensive to run for office generally. So our endorsement, the political contributions we make to these candidates can really make a difference, particularly in some of the smaller races that aren't getting a lot of attention otherwise.

Mike Huckins (Guest):

Yeah, I was just going to say, to John's point, I think the PAC board does a great job of directing our dollars in the most impactful races. There are some groups out there that will spread the love around, so to speak, and give a little bit to everybody. What we try to do is direct our dollars in the most impactful way for the races that are key for us, saying, "We're going to put a majority of our funds here, here and here," rather than sort of a scattershot.

Todd Sanders (Host):

And just to be clear, if I own a small business, if I send the check in from my business, that doesn't count?

Mike Huckins (Guest):

Right.

Todd Sanders (Host):

It has to be a personal?

Mike Huckins (Guest):

It has to be a personal one, yeah.

Todd Sanders (Host):

So we certainly would appreciate contributions to PAC, and we will put a link in the descriptor of this video.

Mike Huckins (Guest):

We'd much appreciate it.

Todd Sanders (Host):

So let's get into a few things that as we wrap up a little bit. When I hear frustration out there, to your point about the dysfunction, people... We have term limits, what's happening? Why is there so much dysfunction still?

John Moody (Guest):

Look, I think we just... I don't know if it's possible to point at the exact cause of it, but we just live in a different political environment today. It's just nastier by nature. And the debate is harsher, the debate can be meaner, it's more personal. I think back in talking to government affairs professionals, new lawyers, Mike Sons, whoever it might be, I look back when I first started doing this, I remember it being very extraordinary for a candidate to call another candidate a liar. If you did that, it was almost fighting words. It is personal to the core. Well, today, it's pretty hard to find any debate occurring between candidates where everyone's not accused of being a liar. Everything they say is a lie. 20 years ago, if you had heard the terms, "This person is corrupt," that would've really been... Right?

Todd Sanders (Host):

Yeah.

John Moody (Guest):

And today, we hear those kinds of discourse from within the debate. So I don't know how we get back to a more civil conversation, and I don't know if we ever will. I think social media has changed a lot. We just live in a different world of political debate now.

Todd Sanders (Host):

You mentioned social media. One candidate can... On the other side of who you don't like is sneezing and you immediately jump on them, so there's this very quick reaction. What I always find interesting is that when our candidates do the same thing, we very rarely want to hold them accountable. And I wonder if, not that you want your side to lose, but at least to start to hold our folks accountable, for instance, if you're going to say someone's a liar or cheating, I wonder if that would start to raise the bar a little bit.

John Moody (Guest):

Well, I think we do hold candidates accountable. We have very... As Mike mentioned, the discussions we have within the PAC board are confidential. We have very candid conversations about these people, these candidates, their voting record, their character, the way that they treat other people, the way they treat those that have to interact with them at the capitol, the way they treat the public. And all of that goes into our deliberation, if you will, of whether we decide to endorse that candidate, because those are all relevant factors. And we do have to hold candidates accountable for their votes. Sometimes it can be difficult and you get a group full of public affairs professionals, and we may not always agree with it among ourselves either. But I would agree with you, Todd. It's one of the things that we have to hold. It's a critical function to hold these folks accountable for their votes and for their conduct.

Todd Sanders (Host):

That's why, to me, the PAC is so valuable, and other PACs as well, like our friends at the Arizona Chamber and other associations. So Mike, one of the things I hear from you a lot and from our PAC is, "We wish we had a better selection," maybe is the right word, "of the folks running for office." Why aren't we seeing, for instance, more members of the business community that are running for office at the legislature or city council, or to John's point, for Congress?

Mike Huckins (Guest):

I think it's a number of factors, and this is unfortunate, but just the reality of the days. One, John mentioned earlier to it, races are expensive. You need some significant resources, fundraising, whether personal or from outside groups to run a successful campaign.

The other reason I don't think as many business candidates run is what we just talked about, just the political dynamics these days. It's personal more so than it's ever been. So if I'm a business owner and I'm thinking about getting in the office, do I want my background, family, friends drug through that sort of slosh puddle of background information that I may have put some tweet up from 20 years ago where it's going to come back to bite me?

And one other, I think, reason, which is less, but I think it does pay a factor, and that's legislative pay. There was an article in one of the newsletters the other day about legislative pay, and it's stagnant at $24,000. They've upped the assistance pay a little bit, which has helped. But I think unless you're self-employed or independently wealthy or retired, it's just hard to step away from your business, or for an employee for a business step away and lose that income.

Todd Sanders (Host):

Some listening might say, "Well, that's fine, Mike," but it's a part-time job.

John Moody (Guest):

It was designed to be a part-time job.

Todd Sanders (Host):

Okay.

John Moody (Guest):

But the reality of it is today, it's a full-time job for most of these folks. And it's just... Could we do things to change that or try to make it more of a part-time job? Maybe, perhaps, but I don't know if we'd ever accomplish that.

One of the... I think, the challenges too, to getting good quality people to run today is that in the last few years, it used to be you had to have thick skin to run for office. You had to have thick skin. Today, you not only have to have thick skin, you have to endure, perhaps, what we've seen in the last couple years is real threats, threats to yourself, threats to your family. And it's pretty hard, I think, to try to convince someone to subject themselves to that kind of scrutiny. That kind of behavior to earn $24,000 a year. And I salute... We talked a lot to our candidates when we interview them. I think everyone on our PAC board is appreciative of anyone who's willing to throw their hat in the ring and run and go through our vetting process, and we appreciate that. But it is a challenge that we have to face. It's getting more and more difficult to get folks willing to run.

Todd Sanders (Host):

We certainly heard that from Supervisor Gates when he was here, and certainly, he felt that for now a number of years and is going to be moving on to something else.

John Moody (Guest):

Yeah, which is a real shame. Not only is it hard to recruit them up front, but we're losing them on the rear end too. It all goes back to a more civil conversation about policy issues. That's why I'm proud of what we do as a Chamber. I'm proud of what we do as a Chamber PAC. We take the time, and sometimes it's hard to convey the debate on Twitter or an X or some, but we take the time to look and examine and debate and communicate in a comprehensive way about complex issues. And that's all we can, I think, be expected to do as a chamber and as a business community, and do what we can to try to get those that are listening to us to also take the time to weigh into the real issues and not just say something mean on a five-word post or something.

Todd Sanders (Host):

It's hard to do policy well, and it's easy just to throw insults back and forth.

John Moody (Guest):

Yeah.

Todd Sanders (Host):

Well, obviously, this is important work, this is very difficult work, and right now, it feels kind of heavy. What gives you hope?

John Moody (Guest):

People care still. And I think that my personal observation is that, yeah, politics might be getting uglier, the political environment might be getting uglier, but people still deeply care. People are still deeply passionate about their beliefs. And if we can continue to, on the policy side, as policy wants, tap into that passion and try to focus that passion on real policy instead of meaningless debate, sometimes that gives me hope. Sometimes it's hard to find, I'll be honest, but I still have a lot of faith in our younger generation. They're engaged, they're paying attention. They live in a different political world, they communicate differently, but they're paying attention and they're engaged. And that gives me hope.

Todd Sanders (Host):

That is... That's fantastic. Mike?

Mike Huckins (Guest):

Yeah, when I look at just our chamber of membership and how it's grown over the years, it gives me a hope that the business community is still leaning in and engaging in some of these races. Like John said, these decisions affect your everyday lives, whether you own a business or not. And it's great to see that people... Like we said earlier, it takes guts to run for office, so the amount of people that are running for office, we may not agree with them, we may not endorse them, but it's great to see that so many people are at least willing to throw their hat in the ring.

Todd Sanders (Host):

Absolutely. And if you're thinking about running, let us know, because we'd love to chat with you.

Well, thank you for spending so much time with me today. Really appreciate it, especially on such an important issue for our business community and our Chamber. Mike, I already got to do our lightning round, so we're going to just focus on you, Mr. Moody. I promise, these are easy. These are easy.

John Moody (Guest):

I've sat through enough of your lightning.

Todd Sanders (Host):

Yeah. This is easy. All right. Well, first job.

John Moody (Guest):

First job ever was Cowboy, ranch hand on my family's cattle ranch.

Todd Sanders (Host):

See, that's one y'all didn't expect. Did you? You have to elaborate a little bit.

John Moody (Guest):

As I mentioned earlier, my family has been in Arizona a long time. My ancestors were early pioneers, cattle ranchers and farmers, mostly in the Gila Valley. My grandmother owned and operated a cattle ranch and cotton farm in Safford, Arizona. And as a city kid growing up in Phoenix, every chance I got, I'd leave town and drive to Safford and work cattle on the ranch and help her out around the farm.

Todd Sanders (Host):

All right. You still pretty decent with a rope?

John Moody (Guest):

So I haven't roped in a while. I like to think I still am. I still have my rope hanging on my wall in my office and would like to think I could still grab the horns or back feet, but haven't done it in a while.

Todd Sanders (Host):

Right. Well, that was the right answer, by the way. Well done. What'd you learn from that?

John Moody (Guest):

Look, the value of hard work. It's like... And how hard it must have been for my ancestors that came to this state early on in horse and wagon and stake their claim and built a ranch and a farm. We complain about how hot it is here, and well, I can't help but look back and think, "How hard was it for those relatives of mine in the late-eighteen hundreds to live and thrive in rural Arizona on a ranch, with no air conditioning, no, none of that?"

Todd Sanders (Host):

Yeah. Well, I'm assuming too, it gives you a heightened sense of purpose with the work you do at the legislature.

John Moody (Guest):

Yeah. Right. We're all the sum of our backgrounds and our experiences. And from my days as a biology student, to my days as a kid growing up with ranching relatives, to being a prosecutor, to being a lobbyist, depending on what the issue might be, it all contributes to who we are. And I like to think that all of those experiences and all of my background helps me be well-rounded, listen to different opinions on an issue, and help form better public policy.

Todd Sanders (Host):

I think that's reflected in your work. First concert.

John Moody (Guest):

First concert. Waylon Jennings at a small bar venue.

Todd Sanders (Host):

Excellent. That fits the cowboy motif. I was thinking something else. I was thinking maybe rock at Compton Terrace, but okay. I love that.

John Moody (Guest):

Right? I'm a country music guy first. But the concert I wish I had gone to in my earlier days, I'm mad I missed a U2 concert at ASU Stadium.

Todd Sanders (Host):

I would've seen you there. I didn't make the movie though. Okay. First car.

John Moody (Guest):

First car, 1976 Chevy pickup.

Todd Sanders (Host):

Wow. You're just nailing the themes.

Mike Huckins (Guest):

He really is.

John Moody (Guest):

And I still drive a pickup, so not too much.

Todd Sanders (Host):

Automatic or shift?

John Moody (Guest):

The 1976 was an automatic transmission, but no air conditioning.

Todd Sanders (Host):

Okay. All right. We got to keep it real. Excellent.

Well, gentlemen, thanks again. Thanks for joining us. The work that you've done, completed this year is going to have a huge impact this election, and we certainly will look forward to the next election and continue to have you as our chair.

John Moody (Guest):

Thank you very much. Thanks for having us.

Mike Huckins (Guest):

Yeah, thank you. Appreciate it.