Exploring Education Policy, Innovation, and School Choice with Sheila Vanhoose

PODCAST Season 6 EPISODE 11

Sheela Vanhoose

Shareholder, The Southern Group

Founder, TSG Advisors

Introduction of Guest Bio

Sheela Vanhoose is a Shareholder at The Southern Group, where she helps organizations navigate Florida’s political and policy landscape with a focus on strategy, relationships, and long-term positioning. Her work sits at the intersection of government, education, business, and emerging policy trends, supporting clients ranging from educational institutions and technology companies to private sector leaders seeking to better understand how policy, procurement, funding, and public perception shape markets.

Sheela is also the Founder of TSG Advisors, an education-focused consulting firm created to help organizations move beyond advocacy and into deeper work around implementation, strategy, and institutional change. What began as a founder-led initiative has grown into an education advisory practice with its own leadership and momentum.

Before her work in government relations, Sheela was a competitive athlete and member of the United States National Karate Team, an experience that shaped her leadership style with discipline, resilience, and calm under pressure. Her work reflects a belief that the best outcomes rarely come from the loudest voice in the room, but from understanding people, timing, and how policy decisions ripple far beyond politics.

Interview

Agents of Change: Leaders/Innovators.

• 30,000 Ft. View – Why so we, as a society invest in education?
• What drew you to education as a practice?

·       00:00 Insight on Southern Group's education lobbying

·       04:22 Stages of Public Policy Implementation

·       07:10 Expansion of School Choice Programs

·       12:23 School districts leveraging excess capacity

·       13:26 Rethinking higher education models

·       18:20 AI in Education Legislation

·       19:56 Embracing AI in Education

·       23:32 Improving education through collaboration

·       28:18 Discussing policy work phases

·       32:11 Evaluating Policy Implementation Timelines

·       34:47 Challenges of personalized education policy

·       36:40 The challenge of understanding legislation

Podcast/ website/ book shoutouts

Education Perspectives is edited by Shashank P

Intro and Outro by Dynamix Productions

Transcript

Liza Holland [00:00:02]:
Welcome to Education Perspectives. I am your host, Liza Holland. This is a podcast that explores the role of education in our society from a variety of lenses. Education needs to evolve, to meet the needs of today and the future. Solving such huge issues requires understanding. Join me as we begin to explore the many perspectives of education. Welcome back to Education Perspectives. We are delighted to have Sheila VanHoose, who is a shareholder and education lobbyist from the Southern Group.

Liza Holland [00:00:37]:
She is also the founder of TSG Advisors. Well, Sheila VanHoose, thank you so very much for joining us here on Education Perspectives. Welcome.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:00:47]:
Thank you. And thank you for having me. I'm really excited to have a conversation today about education policy.

Liza Holland [00:00:53]:
Oh, me too. So I gotta kick you off with a 30,000 foot question. Why do you think that we as a society should invest in education?

Sheila Vanhoose [00:01:02]:
It's such a great question. I've heard you ask this on your podcast Prior. And for me, education is about unlocking potential. And, you know, a lot of folks will look at education from an economic lens, from a, you know, world view, but ultimately in the education, our education system, and not just education system because we're lifelong learners, right? We're constantly learning. I learned listening to your podcast, reading books from people in my life in addition to formal education. But learning allows us to unlock dreams of students. It allows upward mobility. So I always say, for me, education is about unlocking potential and that is why I'm in this space.

Liza Holland [00:01:44]:
I love that answer because you are right. And particularly the piece about lifelong learning. If we're not learning, we're dying. Right, right, right.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:01:53]:
No, it's true. So, so true. You can learn good things and bad things, right? Like you're just constantly learning.

Liza Holland [00:02:01]:
So I understand that you founded the education portion of your practice there with the, the Southern Group. What drew you to education as a practice?

Sheila Vanhoose [00:02:09]:
Yeah, absolutely. I, you know, I think like a lot of lobbyists, you kind of fall into an area. And so I started, I have a very traditional, like from campaign trail to lobbying along the way, got picked up to help and lead policy at Broward County Public Schools, which is sixth largest school district in the country down in Broward county in Florida. And then I found myself just moving from education organization to education and just completely falling in love in the policy area. And I'm really grateful for a lot of education mentors who poured into me and taught me along the way. And so I just have never, never left. And so I've worked for large public, private and nonprofit education organizations and then six years ago joined the Southern Group. Really to focus on their education practice.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:02:59]:
And you know, the Southern Group is the largest lobbying firm in the state of Florida. They represent your traditional early learning centers and public school systems and universities and colleges, but also lots of private companies that are really interested in education and what is happening in our education system, from workforce issues and industry certifications to this growing market around education technology and individual companies that are trying to partner with school districts, colleges and universities. So it's just such an interesting lens to see education from our itty bitty learners to lifelong learners like we talked about earlier and then and everything in between in terms of how districts are making budget decisions and then what's happening in the classroom. And there's so many, you know, when we try to solve problems, there's so much happening and it makes, makes education such a one rewarding policy area to be a part of.

Liza Holland [00:04:00]:
Well, I love your bio. Talks about sitting at the intersection of education policy, funding, innovation and implementation. And what a great kind of large view as far as looking at the system as a whole because the policy does not always connect with the implementation. Right?

Sheila Vanhoose [00:04:22]:
So true. It's so true. When you think of like the five stages of public policy making, right? From ideation into implementation, there's a lot of pieces. It's not just the words on a bill that get passed. That legislative intent is important, how a state agency might interpret that piece of legislation and the regulation they put around it. But then what that is like if you think of a K12 realm that is now sent down to a school district which usually puts some local school district policy around it and then makes its way into the classroom, to the schoolhouse, to the classroom. And so much in between. A lot of times in the lobbying world between legislators and lobbyists, we stop at that place of passing a bill, it's signed by the governor and we walk away.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:05:08]:
And I like to continue that thought through of what is happening in the regulatory environment. But even so much the last stage of public policymaking is evaluation. So are we assessing, and I don't know if we do that very well across the country that we pass bills, but then our we assessing the effectiveness and if it's not working, are we willing to walk away from those bills? Right. Or are we willing to go back and fix. And I know we spend a lot of time what we call glitch bills in Florida and I know in Kentucky you probably do the same thing going back and fixing education bills or adding to them so that, you know, that's always a really fun lens to look at. Education through the entire life cycle of policy?

Liza Holland [00:05:48]:
Boy, it sure is. And there are glitches, as you can imagine, and so much is happening right now. We had talked briefly up about this intersection between the work world and what they want and need versus what education is actually providing them right now. And that's kind of where my heart sits at this minute. How is that playing out in Florida as far as do you see any major changes on the horizon as far as how we do school? As you mentioned the assessment piece, that's always a big question as far as legislators are concerned. But tell me a little bit about your policy environment there and what's going on and what's on top of mind there.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:06:33]:
Yeah, absolutely. One thing Florida has really led on school choice in the state. So for years now we have had a tax credit program dating back to 2001. We have had like an open enrollment. So you're not bounded by a district. And so as long as there's capacity, you think of these large metro areas, Miami, Broward, Fort Lauderdale, you might live in one county, in one school district, but your family might work, your mom might work near another school district. And so boundaries being gone was as long as there's capacity was allowable. Years ago.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:07:10]:
We have really robust magnet programs and accelerated learning programs for students to choose from in our public, traditional public school system. Charter schools have expanded across the state and now we have one of the largest complete universal voucher programs in the country. I think we're entering year two or year three of that program. And so it's not income based and families can choose to either, you know, pull down on their state dollars, their the contribution that we put aside per student for private school tuition. They can also utilize those funds for homeschool and to offset some of those costs. So it's been just a really interesting journey. And I know as, as Florida has this model and a lot of states are working towards this and or have this already in play now, come next year we're going to have the same model at a much larger scale at the federal level, which will be a complement for states that already have a mass education savings account program or voucher program. That federal program will be a nice complement to it.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:08:14]:
It'll be interesting in states I think like Kentucky, you just passed the federal piece right. With HB1. So I don't know if you have, I don't think you have an existing state program. Right. So you'll have just the federal layer which will be really interesting to see.

Liza Holland [00:08:29]:
Yeah, Kentucky was very Interesting. We had it as a, as a part of our constitution, state dollars are not allowed to be used for private school types of things and whatnot. And so that came up as a ballot measure and was defeated in Kentucky, interestingly enough. So we've been doing a lot in our, in our major school districts around developing lots of magnet types of programs and specialty sorts of things and trying to kind of do it on an in house basis, if you will. But it's still a huge part of the conversation here. So I'm curious, can you tell me a little bit about how that's actually playing out in Florida? You know, if Kentucky were ever to decide to do a local or a state and federal program combined, you know, kind of, what is that looking like and what kind of impact is that having on the public schools?

Sheila Vanhoose [00:09:25]:
Yeah, it's definitely creating a consumer market, right. Where parents and families can choose the educational options that are best for them. We saw this a lot with our just general school choice previously and we continue to see it today. So if your school, your boundary school is not meeting your needs as a family, your ability to take your dollars and find the right educational opportunity for your family is incredible. And so it's actually going really well. And in the state of Florida, what we, I will say what we are seeing is a slight decline in your traditional public school enrollment as families are able to walk away. But we also, you know, that's also, you know, we have lower birth rates and in Florida we have a lot of movement happening of, you know, we tend to be a more retiree location. And so we, you know, that coupled with just larger birth trends across the, across the world.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:10:21]:
But that coupled with choice, we are seeing a slight decline in enrollments in our traditional public school system. So I think when you ask, how's it going, there's so many different lenses. We have to look at it from a administrator, school district perspective. You have to now balance that. Your costs are probably stable. Right. You know, if you go from 18 children to a classroom to 16 children in a classroom, you're still going to have the same cost, you're still going to need that educator, but you have less revenue coming in. And so that's one from the parent and family side.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:10:56]:
You know, you feel for families that have said, you know, their child is being bullied in the classroom and no one's listening, no one's helping pull, you know, pull their child out of that situation. I had one of my cousins call me when I was working for the school district. Her child has a peanut allergy, a deathly peanut allergy. And the teacher in the classroom would constantly bring jars of peanut butter into the classroom and sit there and eat. And no matter, she brought her issue to the teacher, she brought it to the school nurse, she brought it to the AP, she brought it to the principal, and no one did anything about it until she finally said, I have to remove my child from this school. Right? So you hear about these other situations where no one's listening to the families or no one's listening to mom or dad complain, or maybe the child's not being challenged academically. And so we're not always. We haven't always needed to respond in our traditional public school system, Right.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:11:51]:
Like, there's a lot happening in the private market market. You're constantly responding to the needs of the customer in many ways. And so that has been really interesting to see districts respond in a different way because they need to ensure that they're being responsive to families. Right. And they're addressing the needs or they're keeping kids safe. So it is interesting to watch. It'll be even more interesting to see with the federal component. I will tell you, I'm already seeing some school districts start to think about what is, like, what we do in higher ed.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:12:23]:
What is pay per credit, right? So, like, if you're a private school family, maybe you don't want to do an AP calculus class at home, maybe you want to come to the local school district for that single class. So what is, what is that revenue, Driver? Districts in Florida are starting to think about their excess capacity in buildings, and instead of having, you know, that cost driver there, starting to think of, can I lease that to a charter school or to a private school in excess part of their building, especially if it's like a separate building on campus with a separate entrance and bring in that revenue. So it is, it's interesting in that I'm seeing districts think like a business, and I know their core business is teaching and learning, but at the, at the more centralized level, thinking about the enterprise, thinking about the business and how that revenue moves around, around the district. It has been, it has been quite interesting to watch. And, and this is only the beginning, right? We're sitting at the. Of the mountain, we're at the foothills, just kind of at the start of the climb.

Liza Holland [00:13:26]:
Oh, that's so interesting. And, you know, a lot of positives coming out of that, as you know from what you're bringing forward, it is such a challenging ecosystem. What are you seeing in higher ed in Florida as far as. Are they starting to rethink their model at all? Because I just think in the long term, especially with AI and increasing costs of higher education, you wonder if the ROI is really there for going and getting your traditional four year degree the way that it once was. And so I'm expecting that in a number of years we might start to see a change in how higher education is done. As far as kind of more stacking credits to be able to make your own sort of custom degree. I don't know, I'm just curious because some of that's what's being discussed now. And I'm just curious if that's happening in Florida as well.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:14:25]:
Yeah, we're not there in your choose your own adventure.

Liza Holland [00:14:28]:
So.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:14:28]:
Yes, just yet. Right. But industry certifications are huge in the state of Florida. And we actually put a lot of funding, Both in the K12 space and the state college space, towards industry certification. So every time a learner earns an industry certification, there is a bonus that is awarded to the district, the college, to the educator. And so it really drives that attainment. And we're constantly evaluating industry certifications for the value of the certification, the demand inside industry, what is the job market look like for those industry certifications in order to make sure that we have high quality industry certifications. Right.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:15:08]:
If we're going to make that investment, make it a skill that is going to benefit the learner. And so we have really driven towards industry certification starting all the way down in middle school and then through college. That's one I think. Secondly, we've really transformed. Our colleges aren't called community colleges anymore. They've revamped and they are state colleges able to offer baccalaureate degrees in addition to your traditional associate's degree. But they are really at the college level. When I think of what's happening within communities, because every community is different.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:15:40]:
Our state college system is able to address local community needs and workforce needs in a very fast way. And so we have seen them be a little bit more nimble in trying to set up programs. But we know it's. Setting up programs is expensive when you think of all the costs, the faculty costs, and then once you get it up and running, you're not going to, you know, dismantle them. So they're really, it's really difficult. But like a stackable credential in the higher ed space, we're not seeing that fully. But again, industry certifications have been really big driving towards workforce apprenticeship programs. We've really invested in that in the State of Florida.

Liza Holland [00:16:20]:
We're seeing the same here in Kentucky because that bridge between education and business is getting kind of a little murky, especially with the durable skill sets that really need to happen. One of the things that just passed in Kentucky was House Bill 257, which is going to start to hold schools accountable for some local indicators of quality. I don't know if you've heard of, like a portrait of a graduate.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:16:46]:
Yes. South Carolina was one of the first states to do portrait of a graduate.

Liza Holland [00:16:51]:
So they're basically looking at, okay, we're now actually going to hold our start, to hold our schools accountable. It was kind of like the first step in the piece, but I'm kind of excited about it because, you know, you get what you hold schools accountable for, right?

Sheila Vanhoose [00:17:02]:
Yes. It's so interesting. You know, you talk about durable skills, but we're still hearing industry talk about soft skills and what's missing. And I once was talking to a tech leader and their response was like, we can teach the durable skills, right? Like, if you think about various, various coding skills or coding link, like, things are changing continuously. And as a company, we can teach that, but I can't teach someone how to respond in an email. I like things that, you know, look me in the eye and have a conversation. And so those soft skills I continuously hear are needed. And how we continue to, you know, I just.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:17:44]:
So often in policy, we have problems in society and we turn around and say, hey, let's pass a bill and let's teach it in the K12 system, in the post secondary system. And so those conversations are still, still taking place. And another one that was really big this year in Florida was around cursive writing. And to go back to teaching cursive, which is, it is so funny because I would try to sit down and write something. I was like, I don't remember how to do a Z. Right. Like, I just, just stop for a moment because, like, I rarely, you know, I rarely am even can't, you know, penmanship is probably horrible. My mother would be so upset because I'm typing all the time.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:18:20]:
So we had, we had that conversation in Florida. But I think what's interesting, you know, as you look at policy across the country this 2026, about 500 bills, education bills passed across the states. And, you know, you would think in the day and age of AI, we've heard a lot of conversations about AI, but less than 2% of bills even touched artificial intelligence in the education space, which is so interesting because that is still New territory. As states have these conversations around guardrails or AI literacy, data privacy, all those conversations are still not really happening, or let me take that back. They're happening, but the bills are not moving. Right. The conversations are coming up, but we don't necessarily know what to put into law at times. And so we're not seeing bills really move in that same way that we have conversations around what's happening in the classroom or, you know, mental health conversations, social media, cell phones.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:19:18]:
I mean, cell phone conversations this year about limiting cell phone use in schools was a huge topic across the country.

Liza Holland [00:19:24]:
Yeah, that happened here as well. And I think that AI is just such a big change that educators don't quite know what to do with it yet. You know, I mean, yes, we know we need guardrails, we know we need to figure out how to teach this as a tool instead of an, a quick answer, all those kinds of things. But you've got everybody from we just want to ban it to, you know, let's really dig in because this is the skill set of the future and everything in between.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:19:53]:
So how do you feel about AI in the classroom?

Liza Holland [00:19:56]:
I feel that we have to have AI in the classroom because that's what the real world is, is moving towards. You know, you, when I talk to recruiters from companies now, one of the number one skill sets that they are use or they're they're looking for for is AI proficiency. So if, in my opinion, we are preparing our students to be good, productive citizens in the world that we live in today, and in order to do that, they're going to have to learn these skill sets. But I also think that it's a really, really good time to kind of make that move from all content based to more inquiry based. It's really going to be, you know, the people who are going to be lifelong learners who are going to be successful in the future are going to be able to ask really good questions and be able to utilize AI as a tool to be able to answer some of those questions. But they're going to have to learn how to, you know, take in brand new information that's never existed before, evaluate it, look at, you know, what it's, what its applications are, are they credible sources and then turn around and apply it and deploy it well.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:21:12]:
And that's why I think computer science is still so important as a topic. And I know a lot of states have said, well, with AI you don't need to teach coding. And I think like we have calculators, but we still teach arithmetic, Right? Right. So why would we not teach the skills? And when you think of computer science and computational thinking, critical thinking, creativity, these are all skills we want students to have. But you're so right. Being able to evaluate. You can use generative AI to pump out a code and read it, but you want to, if there's a mistake, you want them to understand it. Right?

Liza Holland [00:21:44]:
Exactly.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:21:45]:
And it's the same. I can go onto ChatGPT right now and have it write a thesis for me. But like, we all know if you read my thesis, you're going to look at it and be like that. Those thoughts are not connecting in the same way that they should if had you written it. And it's the same way I think when we think about coding in general. And so you're right, AI, AI, I 100% agree. We should be kind of embracing the conversations and really thinking about what that means. I, I also think that we have not shaken up the, you know, we're, we're shaking it up a little bit when I talk about consumer markets and education.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:22:18]:
But we have not changed the way we teach.

Liza Holland [00:22:21]:
No.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:22:21]:
In a very long time. We are. It's like I always say, it's like a factory workers. Right. Like you sit in your seat for hours on end. I have a 7 year old at home, she cannot sit still for that long. And. But I, we're not pumping out factory workers anymore.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:22:36]:
Right. That idea that I need to sit in a station for hours and hours and do the same monotonous task over and over again, I would love. And I've seen this with Alpha schools. I don't represent Alpha schools, but I've seen this with the Alpha school model where you do one, two hours of like your traditional core subjects and then start applying it. Right. It is interacting with your classmates. It's building a business plan. It is application.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:23:01]:
And I think it was Ben Franklin once said, like, you can tell me something and I'm not going to learn.

Liza Holland [00:23:06]:
Right.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:23:06]:
Like that idea. Like, tell me you can and teach me and I'll remember it a little bit. But like, and I'm, I am butchering his quote. But ultimately where Franklin went was like, but if you show me right, like that hands on application. Now I am learning and like that is how I think about some of these school models. And I'd love to see one day policy drop. Now that is like, that is essentially like a complete remodeling of how we do things.

Liza Holland [00:23:32]:
Yeah. But that's really what needs to happen. Right. It's Almost like we need a revolution instead of evolution in our education system. But, you know, we have to make do with the systems that we have as far as trying to spur innovation and allow for more and more of those things. One of the things I've been thinking about more and more is how we as a society maybe need to step up a little bit more as an entire ecosystem of learning for our children to be able to really, you know, some of those durable skills are wonderfully put forward in sports and in music education and, you know, with performance based evaluations and, you know, there's so much out of school time that could be really supported. And if we could all, you know, sort of get together and realize what are the skill sets that the employers are saying that we really need in the future. And they're all those portrait of a graduate skills.

Liza Holland [00:24:31]:
Right. It's communication, collaboration, critical thinking, thinking, problem solving. Some are pulling in citizenship, which I think is absolutely fabulous in there. But it's really those same sets of skills that every employer is asking for. And so could we not find ways to infuse those skills into everything that we teach? It would just be so cool.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:24:56]:
100%.

Liza Holland [00:24:57]:
I'm going to get off my soapbox there. So tell me a little bit.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:25:02]:
I completely agree.

Liza Holland [00:25:05]:
You know, I would like to kind of, as far as more of that whole ecosystem and the implementation part, tell me a little bit about TSG Advisors. I was reading that you were the founder of TSG Advisors as well. That sounds fascinating. And it sounds like the kind of next steps out into the. To deploy everything that you do in the policy world.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:25:27]:
Yep. So that was, that was kind of the thought of behind setting up TSG Advisors. And so we start with Southern Group on the lobbying side. And more and more organizations were coming and saying, but okay, but we need to do research, we need to, we have this grant we want to go after. We want to think about guidance. And that's not really the space for lobbyists in a lot of ways. And so the evolution of that policy was completing the five stage. I always talk about the five stages of public policymaking and completing that cycle.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:26:00]:
And so TSG Advisors was born a little over three years ago, we at the Southern Group and I think it shows how as a firm we are so thoughtful about policy making and supporting the entire government cycle that it's not just in the education space. We've thought about it for public safety, we've thought about it for transportation and all, you know, just all those kind of components beyond your traditional Legislation to law standards. And so it's a nice little firewall. I helped found that organization, I don't run that organization on the education side these days. And so we do keep a firewall. We're separate companies, but there's so much great synergy. And sometimes we have clients that, you know, come to us for lobbying, but they really need to think about, they need research or they want to, let's say an ed tech company wants to, you know, they want to show an efficacy study. Well, you know, you need a third party evaluation.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:27:02]:
And so to, to have an organization out there that is made up of individuals who have been regulators. Right. So they know, they know how a department of education or state university system is going to implement a law. And to be able to, to think through that has been really fantastic. And I think it just gives us that little bit of a different level when it comes to policy insight as a, as a network is that we're thinking about it. We also have lobby offices across the southeast and in Washington D.C. and so we're constantly talking about bills and how bills are moving through legislatures. And there's just so much synergy in the education space.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:27:42]:
Things don't just happen in isolation. If it's happening in Florida, it's going to happen in North Carolina and vice versa. And that is where, when we're communicating across the country about policymaking and the implementation, that's where we get to really good policy. Right. We learn from others. We learn the good, the bad. We tweak. Sometimes I feel like we don't do enough collaboration across the country when it comes to policy.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:28:04]:
So I'm glad we're having these types of conversations and I know they're happening sometimes in vacuums all over the place, but that is what we need to continue to do. So that is a little bit about what we're doing at the Southern Group and TSG Advisors. There's the TSG network, so to speak.

Liza Holland [00:28:18]:
Yeah, no, I think that's a fabulous idea. And I do agree that collaboration of thought, even if it doesn't work exactly in a new space, it gives you the foundations and the ways to begin. And all of us need to keep iterating. Right. I mean, it's like you said with your tweaking bills, is that we've got to always continue to get better and better and better. I love the fact that you have this perspective from having been inside a school district because education policy is complicated and especially the finance part where all the different buckets land and all that Kind of thing. To be able to kind of describe that to the average person is really kind of complicated. I'd love to kind of maybe take a couple steps back and you talk about your five phases of, of policy work.

Liza Holland [00:29:11]:
I'm not sure everybody that's listening might know what those are. Would you mind just going ahead and repeating those?

Sheila Vanhoose [00:29:16]:
So the five stages of public policy is the idea that you have an idea, right? First idea. Then you move into legislation and passing a law, then it's regulatory, right. You want to regulate. And so that typically happens in a state agency. Then from there you go into implementation. Right. Districts then like think of a classroom. Now they're implementing.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:29:39]:
And the last stage of the five stages is evaluation. Right? Like that evaluation and assessment. Is it working? Is it not working? Do we need to make changes? And then the cycle starts again, right? In theory, idea all the way to assessment. And then you say, all right, we need to make this tweak or we need to reverse course. And then you kick off the cycle again. And so those are the five stages of public policy making. So often we stop. Like I said, so often I feel like, like policymakers, if you're a legislator, your job is someone a constituent brings you a problem and a solution, you work through it, you work with committee staff, you pass a bill, your work is done and then it gets handed off.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:30:23]:
And I feel like that maybe that's some of the issue. Right. Is so often it's like it's a baton going down the track. We're just passing it off along the way. And I would love to see us do more evaluation assessment on policy, which, you know, we do periodically. Right. When you see a bill that is a clean-up bill, right. And it's just removing obsolete language out of.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:30:44]:
Out of law and statute, that is kind of the assessment of whether that's working or not. A lot of times our assessment has comes back and says, hey, in order to do this effectively, we need funding for it. Right? Like it's an unfunded mandate and I can't really do this effectively, efficiently. And we need funding and that. That's the assessment. But those are the five stages. I can't take credit for them. They're not my five stages.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:31:06]:
It's a public policy making thing. But yeah, that's the five stages of public policy making.

Liza Holland [00:31:11]:
So is there like in Florida, is there a mechanism where you do do those assessment pieces of kind of tracking back, or do you wait until there's some sort of kickback from constituents? And then I mean, is there an 8, a group that actually does that, or is that something that citizens are really responsible for coming back to the legislator and saying, you know, we love this part of your bill, but this part is, you know, totally dragging us down.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:31:38]:
Yeah. So from my experience, policymaking is either a reaction to a situation. Right. A constituent concern, or department of education. Think of a state agency, they're running into hurdles as they're implementing work, or they continue to see the same problem over and over again. So you're reacting to a situation. We see policymakers making more in that regard. There are so many think tanks, though, across the country and in every state that like to evaluate, they evaluate budgets, they evaluate bills that have passed.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:32:11]:
And I think a lot of times that evaluation, assessment place probably lives within think tanks across the country versus versus, like a stable part of the legislative process? You know, I always think that that one other kind of part in that process is like, how fast a bill is implemented. Right. You know, when we did our massive universal voucher program in Florida, we did it. We passed the bill and implemented within 40 days. And you think of the regulatory environment, the implementation environment. There's a communication angle in there with stakeholders that has to happen when you're implementing. And so is there a better timeline? And maybe it's always case by case, but, like, you know, I'd love to see bills moving forward across the country that actually have, like, in a staff analysis, what is the implementation would look like. Right.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:33:03]:
Could we do this in six months? In order to do this effective, do we need to do this in two years? And being thoughtful about implementation on the onset of bill, which means we need to communicate. Right. The regulator needs to be talking to the legislator, the policymaker, together. And really, before we pass bills thinking about implementation, I think that makes it a little bit seamless. Right now. I don't think that happens as in a formal process as maybe it should. And that's probably across the country.

Liza Holland [00:33:33]:
Well, I think that that's an excellent suggestion. That's part of the answer of my final question. But before I get to that, I just. A lot of people talk about how incredibly difficult education is from a. You know, as a topic on the Hill. It used to be that it was a very bipartisan sort of an issue. Now it seems like it has become extraordinarily partisan. Is it, you know, how are you feeling as far as that piece of the puzzle and what kind of challenges has that created for you?

Sheila Vanhoose [00:34:04]:
Yeah, I can understand why people feel it's more partisan. I Mean, I have felt that way too. But what I have found is education touches every single member, right? Like it is real to people. They are parents, they were students, they are grandparents with children in the system, aunts, uncles, friends. It is not a topic that maybe someone doesn't have direct understanding and access or knowledge, personal knowledge. And that's what makes education policy difficult, is it's so personal. How do you tell someone their experience is not my experience, right? A private school, a family who draws down on a state voucher for the private school. Like I used my example of my cousin.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:34:47]:
How do you take that away and say, well, you just, you know, that your child should stay in the public school system when that didn't work for them. So education becomes so personal. And to me, above it being partisan at times, I think it is the personal nature of education that makes it more, so much more complicated, because humans are complicated and our experiences are complicated and diverse. And you know, a state like Florida, we are a large state, but we have, have big urban centers and large rural areas. And so even as a state, creating policy that works for everyone is very difficult. And so a lot of times I think the best policy is kind of the framework policy with the ability to tailor to your individual communities because every community is so different. So that's my thought on that one,

Liza Holland [00:35:38]:
and that's exactly the same thought that's really trying to be brought down into classrooms is that we, we have created a everybody gets the same thing sort of a model. And the reality is our kids are so different that we really need to find ways within that system to kind of tailor to each individual case as a student. So I think that that advice is probably good all the way from the top down.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:36:04]:
I agree.

Liza Holland [00:36:06]:
Oh, this has been such a great discussion. Let me give you my final question, which is what would you like for decision makers to know and you can define who decision makers are. It could be the voters, it could be the legislators, it could be people within the administrations.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:36:22]:
I think for this one, I want to talk to the voters. You know, it is, it's. Sometimes it is so easy to criticize. Believe me, I am, I am full of opinions all the time. My friends know it. And so. But I think when we think of lawmakers, we said it earlier in the kind of the pre-conversation.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:36:40]:
If your state is passing like Florida, 18, 1800 bills, no lawmaker can read through 1800 bills. When you think about expertise on committees, you know, a legislator might sit on four or five, they might sit on education and healthcare but they might not be in the healthcare industry. And so there is constantly this knowledge and learning that has to happen. And so, you know, I think sometimes we need to give folks a little bit of grace. And I know that's difficult at times because policy, again, is so personal. And you know, from my lobbying hat, I always, I think when I walk into a room, like, is there a compromise that can be struck? Can we have this conversation in a respectful way? But can I understand where you're coming from? Whether it is you don't fully have all the knowledge in front of you, you have a lot of stressors of politics at play. But I think, you know, I, you know, I used to have a friend who used to always say we need to have, have disagree without being disagreeable. Right.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:37:38]:
Like have those conversations where even in my own household, my husband and I, we're not going to see eye to eye on every topic. But we will compromise. We'll have conversation and respect stays at the center of that conversation. That is where we start to become far more effective in policymaking and far more effective in sharing our ideas with those who are setting, setting the agenda.

Liza Holland [00:38:01]:
I couldn't agree with you more. Absolutely. Thank you so very much, Sheila, for reaching out and for sharing this really insightful conversation. I think that people often don't really realize where education, its policy begins, and that really is with the legislature. A lot of people are like, oh, well, the school district needs to do this. Well, they are following rules that were set by the legislature, et cetera, et cetera. So helping to clarify that is absolutely a gift and I really appreciate all the work that you do and your insights about Florida and hope you have a great day.

Sheila Vanhoose [00:38:38]:
Thank you so much and thank you for having me on.

Liza Holland [00:38:41]:
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