Vocational Services for Veterans with Monnie Rebecca Waltz, BS, MRC, VE, CRC, Christopher Briggman, MRC, CRC, CVE, LCMHC, LPC, and Keith Hosey

An increasing amount of research is exploring the connection between work and wellness. This includes mental wellness and physical health, both of which can be positively impacted by having employment, particularly for those navigating a disability. Simply put, work is more than just a means to earn a living or spend a significant portion of your week. 

For veterans who return to work after service, it can be tricky in general. When you combine the return to civilian life with a disability, it’s important to have the right people in your corner helping you to navigate that transition. On this episode, I had a conversation with three individuals who have meaningful insight into serving veterans. You’ll hear from:

Monnie Rebecca Waltz, BS, MRC, VE, CRC - Program Manager in Vocational Rehabilitation at the Cincinnati VA Medical Center

Christopher Briggman, MRC, CRC, CVE, LCMHC, LPC - a CRC and Vocational Expert who previously worked for the VA, now runs two practices, Balance Consulting & Counseling, and Adjusted Ability Vocational Group 

Keith Hosey - Supervisory Vocational Rehabilitation Specialist at the Robley Rex VA Medical Center. 

References to Research Mention in Today's Episdode:

Large meta-analyses of the available research has provided support for the conclusions that (1) unemployment leads to decline in mental and physical health and increased risk of suicide, and (2) re-employment leads to significant improvements in these states (McKee-Ryan et al., 2005; Paul & Moser, 2009). 

Findings from (Kukla 2012) demonstrate Working clients had fewer days of hospitalization, and had greater reduction in negative symptoms than non-working clients.

(Burns 2014) found Those who worked had better global functioning, fewer symptoms, less social disability; greater job tenure was associated with better functioning.

(Elbogen 2020) found that Veterans lacking money to cover basic needs (food, clothes, shelter, transportation, medical care) had triple the risk of endorsing suicidal ideation compared to Veterans with money to cover basic needs (22% versus 7%).

Other research examining Veterans and homelessness shows that peak risk of suicide occurs just prior to eviction (Culhane et al., 2019).

In research findings by (Abraham 2022), employment was associated with 45.9% lower suicide risk in the year following discharge from VR.

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Thank you.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC: 0:04

Welcome back to Inside Rehabilitation Counseling. I'm CRCC Director of Communications and Marketing, Taylor Bauer, and I'm excited to bring you another conversation exploring the art and science of rehabilitation counseling. An increasing amount of research is exploring the connection between work and wellness. This includes mental wellness and physical health, both of which can be positively impacted by having meaningful employment, particularly for those navigating a disability. Simply put, work is more than just a means to earn a living or spend a significant portion of your week. For veterans who return to work after service, it can be tricky to make that transition in general. When you combine the return to civilian life with a disability, it's important to have the right people in your corner. On this episode, I had a conversation with three individuals who have meaningful insight into serving veterans. You'll hear from Monty Rebecca Waltz, a CRC serving as a program manager in vocational rehabilitation at the Cincinnati VA Medical Center, Christopher Bergman, a CRC and vocational Thank you. Keith, Christopher, Rebecca, thank you so much for joining us today on Inside Rehabilitation Counseling. I'm really excited to hear from you all and learn from you all today. Typically on these episodes, we love to start kind of with hearing a little bit about your background and career journey. So I'd love to start with Rebecca and just kind of hear a little bit about how you became a certified rehabilitation counselor. Can you walk us through the journey that led you to your current career?

Monnie Rebecca Waltz: 1:58

Sure. So it was over a period of years and chain of events really interpersonally and professionally, and it was sort of a happy accident. And that journey included a lot of people along the way that were really important and key, and two of them are on this podcast today, so I'm really glad that they're here. I started off when I was 12 years old. The only thing I have ever wanted to be was a psychologist, and part of that was because of the school psychologist at our school. He was kind of interactive, and we knew who he was, and he was on site a lot of times. And then, so I went to get my bachelor's degree I got a bachelor's in psychology with a double major in biblical studies from a faith-based school. And I wasn't able to go to graduate school immediately after, which is not the normal trajectory of things. And so I returned to greater Cincinnati, where I'm from, and started working at a local hospital. And I was an administrative assistant to the director of nursing. And so I ended up doing a lot of things that were involved with people with complicated medical problems, like that were not in the job description and just people needed help. And so it kind of felt to me, the administrative person, you know, in the department. And then the other piece of that, that was really important also, I think, and important in me becoming a certified rehabilitation counselor later was the fact that I ended up doing a lot of data crunching for the department. And it was by hand, it wasn't in SPSS or Excel, and it was taken from an older system and it was coded weird. And I learned how to do it somehow though, The other person in the office taught it to me and hardly anybody else could read it. So I ended up doing that. And that was really important because I was really not good at data or involved in data. And so then after that, I ended up being a social worker for the state in child protection. And so I worked for a lot of years testifying in court and then working with children with trauma related issues. And then their issues were a lot of mental health complex problems and the intersectionality of mental health. medical problems and so there was a lot of that there's and so that was a really formative learning a lot of like 10 years and so from there I ended up working in inpatient psych for Cincinnati Children's as a mental health specialist for several years and that also was the intersectionality of mental health and physical diagnoses and problems and seeing that up close and personal and that was very important and then during that time along this time I have I had older parents. And so they both had many years of good health and both of them had midlife, late onset disabilities. And so that were very rather debilitating. And seeing that in my family and as an adult, and then having this career path kind of in progress as well, I think was very influential. Their resiliency and their toughness and determination and their work ethic to overcome obstacles and continue to contribute and be effective people, I think was very, very instrumental in kind of how I got into this kind of work. And I had never started off planning to go into this kind of work. So after that, it was several years working inpatient psych adult and children, and then going back to grad school and then getting my CRC. I started off in counseling and I worked for a hospital with adults and children. And I ran partial hospitalization programs. I ran groups in that. And so we would get the medication right for people and we would get there the counseling piece in place and they would make a lot of breakthroughs and be doing better. But at the end when there was about time for them to leave the partial hospitalization program and discharge from that and go back home into work or whatever the case may be, the work piece wasn't always resolved. And that was the one thing that people kept coming back to is, I don't know if I can go back to my old job. I don't know if I can provide for my family or at least contribute to my family. And their difficulty dealing with that really struck me. And I remember thinking then, I don't understand why mental health isn't more focused on employment, to be fair. And then they would come back into the programming and they would go through PHP again. They maybe wouldn't do well. And the people that were able to go back to work or find another job would do better than the ones who didn't. And so from there, other role I ended up working for another hospital and in a behavioral access program. It was new. And so it was adjacent to the emergency department, but it was for psychiatry. And so they were close together. So, again, the intersectionality of medical problems, difficulties, diagnoses, challenges and mental health. And so seeing that, you know, again, you know, in work every day, all day was was a big factor as well. So graduated. from grad school, took my CRC right before I graduated, passed it and went that route with that program and shifted gears from the counseling only program to being a certified rehabilitation counselor. And that's a lot of how I ended up here. At one point I started, I wanted to work at the VA and I, they had a hiring freeze right when I graduated in 2017 that lasted for three years. And I was like, I got to do something else. And so then I went and as a project director for the state of Ohio, medication assisted treatment, prescription drug, opiate addiction grant. And that, you know, did well with that. And that was a temporary grant funded project. Then I was again wanting to apply at the VA. They weren't hiring at that point. And that's when actually that I, I started working with Chris because I trying to get contracts and doing private consulting. And I, one of the three contracts that I got was with Straub Vocational Experts to do social security administrative testimony remotely for de novo appeals hearings. And so that's when we started working together. And I would say, in my opinion, we became fast friends. And he was a really supportive colleague and still my colleague and friend today. And so he was really important at that point as well. And so right at that time, COVID happened. And nobody knew what was going on with that. And I was a brand new expert witness for Social Security. And I was had this huge list of hearings and a calendar and everything. And suddenly those were getting canceled and nobody knew what was going on. And so there wasn't any work to do where there had always been a ton of work to do in the past. And that had never happened like that. And prior to that was trying to get trained for that. And I want to mention Shroud Vocational Experts have a training program that they had to help vocational experts kind of onboard and learn how to do that job. And that was really helpful. And they piloted that with me and We worked through any of the kinks in the program and stuff. And I don't think I would have made it without that. That was a fantastic role. And I really love doing that because you would hear everybody testify, you know, doctors, neurologists, psychiatrists, orthopedic surgeons, and they would all testify to why this person couldn't do their job or, you know, whatever the case may be. But then they would save the vocational expert witness for last. We would testify last. And really everything hinged on our testimony and what we were saying, because we sort of represented the regulations and whether or not people met criteria based on what we had heard in those hearings. And so that was scary and exciting. And I love doing that. But the volume of work wasn't there at that moment when I needed it to be. So again, I was like, you know, I really did want to be at the VA and do rehabilitation counseling at the VA. And I started applying and I turned down a couple of positions because they weren't rehabilitation counseling positions. And finally, I accepted a research associate position just to get into the system. And I thought, well, maybe something else will come up. And then in six months it did. And the position in the Lexington VA, a supervisory vocational rehabilitation counselor position came open. I accepted that position. I got that position. Elizabeth Dodd hired me. And one of the things that Elizabeth Dodd did, who was my direct report and supervisor there was, she asked me like in the first month I was there, did I want a mentor? And it was somebody outside of our system that did the job that I did in rehabilitation counseling as a support and help to enter me she said it's a lot you know federal service is a lot you know to learn all at once and it's up to me if I went she said they don't talk to your boss it's not like that they're really there for you and I said absolutely and that's when I got assigned Keith Hosey and Keith was kind enough to take on the new person plus his job and so and then I was there for a year I'd applied at Cincinnati for the vacancy there the program manager position was open and I applied and Dr. Ryan Faulkner my current boss hired me and I moved here and I get to be do this job in my hometown which is was really fantastic for me and that brings us to today so it's

Taylor Bauer, CRCC: 11:14

really interesting to hear all the different intersections of like practices and work settings that you've kind of been in and how you know rehabilitation and medicine and psychology and all these things we know should be working more closely together are all things that you kind of spent time with and I think that'll definitely yield some really great insights into the conversation we have today I also met masterfully, you mentioned how you know Christopher and Keith, which is kind of fun. So now we get to go back in time and find out how they ended up getting to where they were to meet you. So Christopher, why don't move on to you next? Can you kind of walk us through your career and how you got to where you are today?

Christopher Briggman: 11:47

My journey to becoming a CRC or Certified Rehab Counselor has been a blend of education, federal service, and really formative hands-on experiences. I started with a psychology degree at Coker University in Hartsville, South Carolina, and then I went on to earn my master's in rehabilitation counseling at the University of South Carolina School of Medicine. That's where I really discovered how meaningful the connection is between mental health and purposeful work. Professionally, my first role as a vocational rehab counselor at the VA in Asheville was incredibly enlightening and educational. I came into that role after leaving a role at the VA as a public outreach specialist. So with that job, I went into the community and talk with homeless veterans, incarcerated veterans, elderly veterans, minority veterans. They even sent me overseas. I spent a year in Europe on a military base, basically helping people understand the transition from service life to civilian life, running TAPS programs, that type of thing. But then got the job in Nashville as a vocational rehab counselor. And it was really my introduction into the world of vocational rehabilitation. And it kind of combined everything I had learned after nine years the VA into this job, you know, and it gave me a chance to work directly with veterans that have disability and need help navigating that space, you know, assimilating them back into society and retraining and being comfortable with a civilian workforce as opposed to a military workforce, which is a completely different setting. And that role gave me a foundation for really everything that came after. Due to family obligations, we moved back to Charleston. It opened up opportunities to continue to grow my career with the VA as a hospital administrator. So they call them an AOD. So I was over the hospital at night running everything between, you know, deceased veterans from the hospital and transporting them to interacting with people at the emergency room, interacting and coordinating with the nurses and doctors and the staff. I mean, it was, I was the administrator at the hospital and I will say it was probably the most enjoyable job because of the people and it was quiet. It was really cool. Then got promoted to a position in human resources as a supervisor of recruitment and placement, overseeing a staff of about six to seven people, but we basically welcomed in every employee to the VA. So we had our NEO, new employee orientation. So what they did is it kind of gave me a breadth of experience when it comes to different jobs and what's required by them and how they can communicate with us. And it was very enlightening, again, deepening my experience when it comes to vocational rehabilitation. And then at the same time, I was interacting with the Department of Labor as vocational consultant or a case manager, building relationships with employers and helping expand rehabilitation programs. I then went on in 2020 to leave the VA, just wanting to grow professionally and provide expert testimony in federal court. And that's where I ran into Rebecca and we had we hit it off instantly. Those first couple of hearings in court ruined a lot of white shirts for me. That panic sweat was intense. But after that first year and calling Rebecca to, you know, vent and compare notes and sharpen our skills, then it became second nature. And I grew to love that work. And at the same time, I was building my professional practice. I became a licensed clinical mental health counselor and a licensed professional counselor in North and South Carolina. So I was kind of dabbing in both fields because like she said, around that time in 2020, things were kind of slow and, you know, working for Stroud, she couldn't have expected this, but she provided amazing training, amazing support. So it, you know, really gave me that confidence. So started doing some evaluations with professional athletes out of a company in California called Diaz a company. Frank Diaz is amazing. This guy is just so experienced and he really put me on. So I had literally every aspect of Oak rehab right there on my plate. And I was just, soaking it up, soaking it up. Through the social security testimony work, you know, I was able to sharpen my skills of, you know, just the process of the hearings and how they run, my transferable skills analysis. That was something I really hadn't touched on. So I became really adept at that over these past five years. And the training was just invaluable. Like I said, ran that middle of practice where I was supporting clients through therapy and career transitions. You know, my specialty was anxiety, depression, early childhood trauma, and workplace stress. And I found that that was incredibly important to have, especially with my background and be able to talk with people about it, because I basically been doing that for the Department of Veteran Affairs before I left. And then academically, I terrible overachiever, but I started a Ph.D. program at Grand Canyon University, Glenn for punishment in industrial organizational psychology, writing my dissertation on how African-American virtual employees describe their influence of remote work on their group identities, which ties back to my broader passion for high identity and environment. and work shapes our lives. So for me, the CRC and this experience wasn't just about getting those letters behind my name or credential. It just represents the culmination of years of education and federal experience, vocational testimony and private practice, all focused on helping people, especially veterans, rediscover their purpose and help to rebuild their future. Keith, last

Taylor Bauer, CRCC: 17:26

but not least.

Keith Hosey: 17:26

Yeah, absolutely. So full disclosure, I am the only non-CRC veteran on this podcast. I came about my role at the VA a little differently. I like to say I'm kind of like the stray cat you found in the garage and just decided to keep. My journey actually started with receiving services from our Kentucky State Voc Rehab to go to college. I started as a consumer. I got a bachelor's in philosophy, to which my dad passed this year, and to honor him, I'll let you know that his favorite joke was, when is the philosophy store hiring? I still haven't found a job there, but I've done all right in this field. So my journey then after graduating college, I went back to Voc Rehab to get job placement assistance. I met a rehab counselor named Ron Jackson, who introduced me to our local Center for Independent Living here, the Center for Accessible Living. So I started to working with Ron as well as an employment specialist at the center there. And after a couple months, the employment specialist, her name was Wendy Ferrara, also a CRC, told me she was leaving for a job in North Carolina and she wondered if I wanted to interview for her job. So I did. I became an employment specialist at the Center for Independent Living. At the time, we had a Projects with Industry grant for those people listening that might remember those from the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s. And we worked very closely with Voc Rehab at the time, not as a community rehab provider, but as this grantee who is also serving clients in job placement. So I worked there for 14 years in various roles. In 2017, the individual who who used to be in my current role, who I had worked with professionally in the community for a number of years, reached out to me and basically said, hey, would you like a career change? At the time I was an associate director at that small nonprofit and she had an opening here at the VA for an IPS supported employment specialist. I had traditionally worked with individuals with physical disabilities, developmental disabilities. And this would be working primarily with veterans with severe and persistent mental illness. I love a challenge and I love to grow my skills. So I jumped at it. I started, I worked for several years in direct service. I was our VISN mentor trainer. So I ended up for a little while being the mentor trainer for the VISN for all the the supported employment specialists on the, of course, the evidence-based IPS model. A chance came up to become the supervisor for the program. So I went for that and I've been supervising. Actually, the very first day as a supervisor was the very first day the entire country shut down for COVID. So it was an odd experience. There was a lot of pivoting as far as our program went, but it was was kind of a trial by fire, which I also like.

Speaker 01: 21:06

I feel like all three of you really took on a new professional challenge right in the heart of the pandemic starting, which as if that wasn't already a chaotic enough time. But you're all here five years later to tell the story. So it must have worked out OK. And I think trial by fire is a good way to say that, Keith. I like that. So I really appreciate all three of you walking through kind of how you got to where you are today. I'd love to hear about some of the programs and initiatives you're most involved in. with the work that you're doing right now. Keith, if we want to start with you, just since we made you wait for the first question so long, what is kind of like I wouldn't say a typical day, but, you know, in terms of like a week to week and kind of the workflow that you're currently operating in, what sort of programs or initiatives are you involved in most closely with your current role? A

Keith Hosey: 21:53

little bit of background about big VA Veterans Health Care Administration. Every VA hospital across the country and in our territories has vocational rehabilitation so it is it's part of law that every VA offers both evidence-based IPS supported employment as well as a program called transitional work which is a rehabilitation program where they get put into therapeutic slot and they learn some of the soft skills of going back to work in my role I I supervise the various components under voc rehab here on the VHA side. So other than those two mandatory components, it looks different at every site. For example, you'll probably hear about Rebecca's site. They have a domiciliary. We do not here in Louisville. What I do have is I have seven rehab split. I have two rehab counselors and five voc rehab specialists. So when you look at employment at the there are two different job series under voc rehab. You have the GS0101, which is a rehab counselor. Anyone in that role has to have their CRC up to date and or get it within two years of being hired. The other job series, the GS1715 is a voc rehab specialist, which is the job series I'm under. So you do not have to have your master's You do not have to have your certification. You just need some kind of experience. So I do want to mention the components that I supervise. Like I said, we have evidence-based supported employment that primarily we serve veterans who have a severe and persistent mental illness. We also serve veterans with chronic PTSD in that program. And as data continues to evolve on the efficacy of of that evidence-based IPS model. We've expanded at the VA to serve individuals with substance use disorder under that umbrella, as well as traumatic brain injury and spinal cord injury. Now, outside of that program, like I said, we have our transitional work program, which we put veterans into therapeutic slots for a certain number of months and they learn those soft skills and they get paid a stipend. It's not competitive employment. And goal is competitive employment. But while they're in there, it's a medical stipend. And that allows them to kind of also, oftentimes when we have veterans coming into that program, they're early in recovery from whatever their disability might be, and they still have a lot of medical appointments. So the great part about that program, again, every VA has it, is those veterans can get their medical care, their mental health care, their substance use care, whatever they're getting, while they're showing up to these work slots and they're able to leave and come back, you know, as they tell their supervisor. The other component that we have here in Louisville is called community-based employment services. That is just completely invented by the VA. It's based on the IPS model. Some of us call it IPS light, and it has a lot of the same principles, but it doesn't follow the fidelity of IPS directly. So that's kind of day-to-day. I will say, as you mentioned earlier, Taylor, there are so many different types of roles someone can have, so many different types of jobs. VHA, the healthcare side, is very different than the benefit side, very different from state voc rehab, where you have a counselor who may have a caseload that's larger than they probably should. unfortunately. And they're managing those caseloads and tuition payments and everything else that comes around with that. On the healthcare side, we are in the community. We are actively out there. We are moving. It is not a desk job. I like variety and every day is different. We're out. We're meeting with new employers. We're meeting our veterans in the community at their place of employment, at a coffee shop near their house, whatever works for them, we really want to meet the veteran where they are.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC: 26:37

And I can imagine that makes a huge difference. Particularly, I know we've heard from folks who say, depending on clients and their background and experience with working in a system like this, sometimes there can be hesitancy to know, like, how much am I really going to get from this? And I think from the get-go, meeting someone where they are and showing up for them makes such a huge difference. So I can imagine that's a great way to show right from the start, like, we're here for you. Thank you.

Monnie Rebecca Waltz: 27:31

same floor as the domiciliary. So the veterans who are at risk for homelessness, substance use, mental health diagnoses, including PTSD and anything else that there is, they come here and they live for a period of time, sometimes up to eight months. And so they're kind of, I said, they live here among us and we work right beside them every day. And so that's the only really thing that's different. So they have supported employment that serves a population of people who they're their main, you know, issue and struggle is a severe mental health diagnosis, like Keith was saying, schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, bipolar disorder, PTSD, anything, you know, in that realm. And then we have transitional work, and my two transitional work staff are here attached in the domiciliary, you know, right across the hall from me. And so we are trying to help people who, you're talking about people who don't have IDs, they don't have a copy of their birth certificate, they don't have their social security card they don't have family support sometimes sometimes they do but not always and they don't have any of the things you know even a bank account they have to go open one up to be able to get transitional work paychecks set up to be deposited into and maybe they haven't had one for a long time or maybe they have to use a non-banking kind of system because you know they got into financial difficulty and can't open to have to pay some more fees off before they get that bank account set back up so they have to use some of these other mechanisms. So they don't have anything. So we have to start really from scratch. They may not have a driver's license. They may have court hearings. They may be court involved. I'd say a large percentage of our residents here are combat veterans. And I don't know the percentage, but it would be pretty high. And obviously PTSD goes with that. And so, and that's the struggle and why they have lost everything, a lot to do with that, the very fact, and that they don't have those documents in anymore. They've lost them or, you know, they've got into substance use and their life, you know, is really stripped down to the bare minimum. And so we start with them, meeting them where they're at, like you said, but then we got to build that life back up, you know, and help them to do that. And so I think that's probably the big difference. One of the initiatives that I tried to do when I came into this role, so, you know, it was post COVID when I got here and things were back up and kind of running, but not fully, but it was, it was on its way. And so we didn't have a lot of contracts and so I had to try to build up those contracts and started here within the VA system because that would seem like the easier ones maybe to get but and so doing that and then doing a lot of education internally with other staff because that's where our consults come from they come from inside the VA they're not from the community necessarily and if they don't aren't aware of our programming or the scope of our practice or how we can help and they don't place consults then we don't have those and so doing a lot of marketing and education internally just staff, you know, on the TV monitors and on the VA LinkedIn page or the Facebook page for the VA or email blasts and talking about our success stories and the change in lives that people have, you know, once they get to the program.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC: 30:45

I know we've assisted a couple CRCs in hospital settings, not within the VA, but in other hospital settings where they have reached out and said, like, I need people who work in the same building as me to know what it is I do, because they might be alongside you. But I mean, we all have our own tasks and responsibilities. Helping people to understand where your role comes in on the voc rehab side, I think, can go a long way of even letting people who you might be parking next to or working in the same building as understand when they can come to you for your expertise and the services you provide. So that's really great to hear that you were doing some of that for your co-workers and peers. Christopher, how about you? What sort of programs or initiatives are you spending a lot of your time currently working on?

Christopher Briggman: 31:34

I'm currently really focused on the PhD, but that's tapering off. I should finish pretty quickly with that. But through my company, the Social Security Administration contract that I'll hold, where I provide the disability hearings, it allows me to expand my expertise regarding the vocational evaluation, transferable skills analysis, and the labor market. And we know that that's changed and has and challenged recently. Being abreast of that really puts me in a position to provide guidance and resources to new CRCs coming into the field. So I've been working with a few colleagues of mine and building some trainings and assets that they could be using to become a little bit more familiar with the process. I also contract with TCRG, the Consolidated Rehab Group under Chapter 36, which is dedicated to helping veterans and their families with educational and career counseling. So that is really meaningful because it supports veterans in translating their military experience into civilian opportunities while helping them to rediscover their identity and the direction beyond their uniform. And that kind of ties into my work in the minority population and the PhD. The goal is to really focus on the identity that these individuals are building by working in a virtual setting and exploring what that looks like. The study looks at their experience prior to 2020 and then compares it to the actual COVID experience. So I'm looking to collect the data and ready to see what that ends up being. And then in addition, I am running the private practice, Balanced Consulting and Counseling, where we work with anybody. I particularly love working with veterans. So it's very encouraging when I do get a chance to talk with a vet and help them through it because I've worked with them for 11 years regarding anxiety, depression, the workplace stress, PTSD and then I heavily implement, you know, the cognitive behavioral therapeutic approach. You know, the combination of structure and practical tools that it provides helps clients to, you know, progress in a way that helps to feel competent in their everyday lives. And, you know, as Rebecca and Keith were talking, I got flashbacks, right? I started thinking about working at the VA. Keith was talking about the huge caseload and it was daunting. It was a lot, you know, but I had pretty good support. But it really threw me in the mix of vocational rehabilitation and helped me to understand why I enjoy the field so much. And it just really put me in a great position to kind of move forward and build opportunities for, to bring more CRCs to the field, especially minority CRCs, especially speaking because of the veterans that come into this space. I've often ran into our minorities and they don't really understand not only because of their race, but because of their disabilities, why they are at a disadvantage coming into the civilian workforce from a prestigious environment such as the military and why does it translate? So really tying those things together.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC: 34:40

All three of you, that's a lot on your plate. And it's so great to hear with all of the different things that you're working in that that passion comes through and that like that mission focus you the three of you all seem to know exactly why you're doing what you're doing and that it's a more than just you know a nine to five or depending on the week right probably much longer than that veterans carry a very unique identity with them on top of being individuals with all sorts of backgrounds and nuances that we all have I always like the analogy of like you know we all have a backpack that we carry right of all of our lived experience the things we've gone through, the things that we believe, et cetera, et cetera. But specifically with veterans, what role does the identity of a veteran play in their mindset about receiving services? And in your experience, what ways do you and others navigate that a bit differently than you would someone who potentially has never served in the military?

Christopher Briggman: 35:34

Veteran identity is something that's incredibly unique. It's not just a job title or something that they once did. It's It's something that gets woven into who they are. Veterans carry their lived experiences with them, whether it's the structure of their service, the camaraderie of their unit, or the trauma of the combat. And it shapes how they approach everything, including services. So while at the VA, I learned early on that many veterans see asking for help as almost the opposite of what they're trained to do. They were taught to push through, to put the mission first. to be the one that others rely on. So when it comes to receiving counseling, rehabilitation, or vocational support, there can be a natural resistance. The role of the services that we provide is to honor that identity and not strip it away. So that means framing the services as a continuation of their mission, whether that mission is getting back to work, finishing school under chapter 36, accessing or utilizing the benefits that Keith and Rebecca have, or navigating the disability benefits, which is also some of the work that I did really helped me to understand the system in its entirety. But it's also creating environments where they feel respected as veterans first, not just as clients in my caseload. So in my work from vocational rehabilitation counseling at the VA to my contract to Social Security and TCRG and my therapy practice, I try to keep that in mind. Veterans, they don't just want service. They want somebody who understands that their lived experiences are similar to who they are. And when we respect that, the services themselves become less of a handout and more of a partnership in building that next chapter in their life.

Monnie Rebecca Waltz: 37:23

When he was saying it's part of who they are, I was saying it, you know, at the same time thinking that he's right on about that. These veterans that come to the domiciliary that are kind of stripped down, if you will, like he said, that's exactly what's happened over time. And part of it may have been because They felt like they had to press through. They had to push through and deal with this on their own. And then that complicates and compounds the loss of things that they have, where somebody that maybe isn't a veteran would have maybe pivoted way before they would have. And so I feel like the amount of loss in their personal lives, family, children, relationships, legally, and then professionally is so So it's so great. Some of them are very high achieving people. They've had fantastic careers in the military. They were not all, you know, they were an entry level person. Some of them had amazing careers and they were high ranking people. And now they come in here and they can't even, they don't have a place to live. And so, and a lot of these veterans are not in their 20s and 30s. Sometimes, you know, we do get people younger, but it's kind of situations where it's persisted with decades of decay going on, like personally in their functioning. And so chronic homelessness, substance use, wreck their lives, minds, bodies, untreated PTSD and other conditions. And then they haven't had any health care, even though the VA was available to them. They have not engaged in that. So when they come in, you know, sometimes they have to get medical work clearance. And that's not something that we talked about to be able to work in transitional work or go be in a voc rehab program. We have to have that that baseline that they're OK and well enough to participate and work from a provider or prescriber. And so sometimes we're not able to get that because they have to take care of several medical problems first. I had one person who they had a couple of significant eye diagnoses and they were not able to go back to their trade. And they had a skilled trade and they were good at it. And that wasn't on the table. And then while they were here, they also found out that they had a cancer diagnosis and that had to be treated right away. And they want me to still put them in work and to be cleared for work and they begged me and begged me and I'm like you know I'm all about everybody going for work and I even maybe push people to go to work but I'm like in this particular case I was even like hey maybe it's okay to just take a break take a pause and he just really wanted to and I was like well let's see what the doctor says you know I can't ever ride the doctor and that doctor actually said this cancer treatment probably would do pretty well and that they cleared them to work and so this person it was the humility of he just really wanted to get back to work he was desperate and I think that humility and the trust that he had developed over being here for a time that was broken in a way with the government because they feel disgruntled sometimes as veterans who have lost everything and you know there's always blame to go everywhere and around for everybody but we have to kind of earn that back with them and partner with them like Chris was saying it you have to get into the partnership position with them to be able to do that but it's that humility and the trust like he will go by my office when he gets back from work at the end of the day and be like, and he's smiling and he's doing cancer treatment and he's so happy to be back to work. And I just think that that is part of the unique identity and the work ethic that they bring to the table that is different from everybody else that I have so much respect for.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC: 40:59

Yeah, that's so powerful. Thank you for sharing that. And I think that's a theme we hear from CRCs and the clients that they work with all the time is that like there's this really horrible misconception that people who might be experiencing or navigating a disability aren't interested in working. And for a lot of them, when they are given the support and services that they need to find what it is, not only that they can do and are going to be successful in, but that they want to be doing, it's completely transformative for them on every level. So that's really a powerful story to share. Thank you for that. Keith, how about you?

Keith Hosey: 41:35

You know, for me, you know, veterans are really trained to not ask for help, right? that is the culture of self-sufficiency. They have terms like embrace the suck. They have terms, you know, aim, shoot, adjust. You know, it is all about overcoming, adapt and overcome, right? There's a desire to take care of yourself. And so there have been times where I've had to have a conversation with a veteran and say, hey, you're not getting handouts here. You're not getting, you know, some kind of special, you earned these benefits. So take advantage of them. Your service earned this. And I think the other great thing about working with the veteran population, you know, it's very different to try and build someone's self-esteem when they're 18, 19, 20, and have never held a job versus someone who has been in the service for however long they've been in the service and have that base to build on. So oftentimes it's just reminding because we do, and I think Rebecca did a good job of painting the oversized rucksack that our veterans carry on their back when they walk in to see us, that sometimes there's a lot of complex interweaving issues. And for me, just getting that person's self-esteem up, asking them about their service, genuinely thanking someone for their service. Like I don't just say it when I meet with someone, you know, I look them in the eyes, I shake their hand. I'm interested in what you did in the military. I'm interested in to learn who you are and how I can help you become who you want to be as your partner in this process. And so I think it's, Oftentimes, it's a little easier to tap into that military pride to give them a little bit of a self-esteem boost so that they can take that next step to continue to increase their self-esteem until we get to a point where they're successfully on a job. And all of a sudden, they're not looking at their shoes when they come into the office. They're standing upright, smiling, and

Taylor Bauer, CRCC: 44:07

thankful. Questions or conversations about identity are always kind of funny, right? Because we talk about veteran identity as if everyone who's a veteran has the same identity and same relationship to that period of their life which this is an audio format so you can't hear this but i'm getting head nods we all know this right but it is interesting specifically for for veterans and just kind of how that is a very unique experience that not everyone goes through and it can play different you know roles and contribute to different factors of how someone navigates that that transition to civilian life um disability or no disability so one thing that came up when we were playing this podcast that I was really interested in because we haven't had a guest on who has worked at a, who has been in a work setting with this sort of setup before is Rebecca, you mentioned that clients live on site at the Cincinnati VA, which, you know, was something that I was like, okay, that's something I definitely want to hear more about because the first thing that came to mind was the idea of that proximity to clients and how that changes, not even changes, that deepens the understanding of them and that relationship you can build with them and navigating that situation with them. So I'm curious to hear from you, Rebecca, what sort of experience does that provide you as a counselor? And then also, are there any challenges that come with having clients who are also potentially living on site at the Cincinnati VA?

Monnie Rebecca Waltz: 45:33

So the first thing that comes to mind for me is that it absolutely is a different kind of a scenario. So if you, you know, boundaries are always really important and it's a big tenet in crc and our code of ethics and but they live right here they literally i have a veteran that is his room their group of the room there's like three or four of them in a room that they share is right next to my office like literally if they beat on the wall i would hear it so they're right there um and i say they literally live among us and i start my day when i come in in the morning and i'm meeting them they're going down the elevator to go outside to smoke or just go outside for a little bit get some fresh and it's you know I'm saying good morning how was your weekend you doing okay you okay last night did you go to that meeting last night did you make it you know is it okay you had some stuff going on yesterday and it kind of starts like almost in the parking lot and on your way in because some of my transitional work guys are outside working on the grounds when I come in and I make sure I you know say hi to them on the way in in the mornings and when I leave in the afternoon they're out there cutting the grass or raking the leaves whatever it is right now and I do think it as As a professional, you want to pride yourself or try to protect yourself from being judgmental of people or judging people harshly or incorrectly or having a bias of any kind. And I know that the other two professionals on here are very good at trying not to do that. And we work hard at that. We take that seriously. But it is human nature to do that at some point. And I think when they are right here and I'm on their treatment team hearing what's been happening in the week and the other disciplines talking about what's going on medically or psychosocially, what's going on, the struggles that are going on. I think it helps me to be less biased. I think it helps me to be more understanding and not as judgmental and the things that I don't want to be, but guess what? I kind of am sometimes. And it helps me to be a better practitioner, to be fair, like it really does. And the downside of that is, is that you're really invested if they don't get that job or if they relapse or whatever, you know, you really are. And it, you know, almost feels like they're, you know, you know them like family or better than your family, but they're not your family and they're your patients and they're your veterans. And so it's, it's constantly, you know, it's a strange kind of a situation, but I think it's good overall. And the other thing is, is that the VA is the veterans come first. And so I kind of have an open door policy, but they walk by my office all day. So I'm doing all the things that I do, but they just stop in. And I don't, I have a hard time telling the veteran, no, not if I'm in a meeting like this or i'm on another virtual treatment team call i can't i can't stop that but afterwards or in between when my door is open they will just stop in you know and they want stuff and it's it's important stuff they're trying to get those ids they're trying to get their birth certificate we had one they had to send to another country's consulate um to get a birth certificate because we couldn't get anywhere with getting id or anything they can't get a job in this country without proper id nobody can nobody ever could i mean and so um It just kind of heightens, I think, the urgency and it heightens the depth of how far we have to go with this to help them kind of put things back together in their lives.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC: 48:52

Yeah, absolutely. I think that relationship, that counselor-client relationship already starts to get so, as you said, you become so invested in seeing them achieve their goals or grow and make progress. And I can imagine having them right in that store, like you said, can add a little bit of that sort of investment. We know that veterans, and this is something Keith mentioned at the top of our conversation, the concept of PTSD and how that can play a role in this sort of rehabilitation process. We know veterans often experience PTSD and other trauma-related conditions, and suicide prevention is a key consideration for anybody, but specifically this population. And Rebecca, when we were first discussing the podcast and maybe what we'd be talking about about. You mentioned something that stuck with me that I immediately wrote down on the piece of paper I still have from weeks ago when we talked, and this idea of the protective factor of work. Can you elaborate a little bit on that concept and how it pertains to clients who might be at risk of depression, anxiety, or other serious conditions?

Monnie Rebecca Waltz: 50:01

Yeah, and I'm really glad that you even brought that up again and that you're willing to talk about that today. So when I was talking about the marketing that I'm doing, that's one of the concepts that I'm trying to push out there because it's Sometimes people think of work as the last thing, but it's really a high priority for the protective factor of work. Everybody complains about their jobs, wanting to retire, playing the lottery and going to the beach forever. But work is a huge part of my life. And my career is the investment you were talking about, the years that we've worked in the financial investment and the time and however long it takes to do a PhD, which I can only imagine what Chris is going through because I haven't done it. But I think that veterans They're not different than anybody else. They've sacrificed more than any of us. Maybe they've had, went to war, been deployed, lost limbs, lost part of their, you know, they've had their brains blown up and jarred by an IED or a bomb. All of that, you know, goes out the door, you know, when you come back from war and then the results of all of that. And if they can't go back to work, though, and they don't feel like they are contributing, just like the people that were in partial hospitalization, also So the same kind of idea that they couldn't get the work piece sorted out. And if they can't do that, it doesn't, it's not that it doesn't matter that the meds are right or that the counseling breakthroughs happen. That's all important. And that their health is addressed. Absolutely. But if you can't go back to work and at least contribute, and some of them, they can't go back to work in a paid status and they, they want to volunteer and they, and they do that. It's so important to them to be able to contribute to in some way. And I, Nobody talked about work when I was in different types of roles. And I think that that's the most important thing, that work is actually going to help keep them from committing suicide. It's a huge component to that. And it's so important.

Christopher Briggman: 52:00

We all know that veterans often face PTSD, depression, and sometimes suicidal ideations. And those aren't just clinical diagnosis. They... They're lived realities for a lot of people I've worked with in the VA through Chapter 36 and even in my private practice. One of the things I can always emphasize is the protective factor of work. Work, when it's the right kind of work, does more than just provide a paycheck. It creates purpose, structure, identity for a veteran who's at risk. Having that reason to wake up, that sense of responsibility to a team again, that rhythm to their day can serve almost as like an armor against that isolation. The military, it instills a mission first mindset and work can help recreate that mission in civilian life. So I've seen it play out in very tangible ways. Veterans who were struggling with depression found new energy once they stepped into a job where they felt useful. Those battling the suicidal ideation found stability when work gave them a sense of accountability to others. Even just the routine of having someone somewhere to be and someone expecting you can and interrupt that downward spiral. So of course, it's not a cure-all. We have to be mindful. Not every job is a good fit. And pushing someone into work before they reticent and backfire, that's where vocational rehabilitation comes in. That's where, whether it's through the SSA hearings, Chapter 36 counseling or therapy, my goal and a lot of our goal is to work to realign the job with the veteran's abilities, interests, and that stage of recovery. So when I talk about the protective factor of work, I mean that work can act as a buffer, and it provides purpose, it reconnects veterans to the community, and it often becomes a lifeline that keeps them moving forward. When we talk about work, it's not just about the identity or the purpose, right? There's a massive financial implication for a society when people can't work. Employment isn't free, it costs. Every person out of work means increased reliance on public benefits, higher healthcare costs, and often more strain on community resources. So for example, the Department of Labor has estimated that each underemployed worker costs society tens of thousands of dollars annually in lost productivity and increased support. Multiply that across the veteran community or the disability population and the economic impact is staggering. On the flip side, when veterans and people with disabilities are supported back into the workforce, we can see not just a reduced benefit in those costs, but an increase in tax revenue, stronger consumer spending and healthier families. work as a protective factor like you mentioned earlier for mental health it can also be a protective factor for society's economic stability that's why voc rehab and programs like social security disability years or chapter 36 services aren't just about individuals they're investments that pay dividends for the

Taylor Bauer, CRCC: 54:59

entire community thank you so much i think even for folks who aren't veterans who are who haven't experienced maybe something as extreme as um thoughts of suicide and things like that can understand that feeling of when your personal life there are things going on sometimes it can feel really good to get to go to work and be like I get to just do my job for the day right so I think that speaks on a on a lesser level to what you're talking about with these veterans and navigating this idea of trying to find a way to facilitate the way that they're feeling and the experiences they've had through something where they're they're moving forward with like action now whether it be in a job or volunteering or something like that I think that that's that's a really powerful concept

Keith Hosey: 55:41

yeah I Absolutely. And I just want to reiterate, especially for veterans, many veterans say that the thing they miss the most when they leave the service is the mission, the camaraderie too, right? But having a mission and waking up in the morning and knowing what you're supposed to be doing that day and what your goal is and how that affects everyone. So that is a bit jarring. I I think from what I've heard from people when they, you know, leave the service. But I also, I am a data nerd. And so I just want to mention that there have been an increasing number of studies over the past 10 to 15 or so years around employment and its effects. when people have meaningful work in their lives, they tend to have more successful healthcare outcomes. So, you know, that's big news at the VA. You asked about suicidality. I would say that I work in suicide prevention, even though my job title is voc rehab specialist. We know that unemployment leads to decline in mental and physical health, increased risk of suicide. Reemployment leads to significant improvement Findings have shown that working clients have fewer days of hospitalizations, greater reduction in negative symptoms than non-working clients. Studies have found that those who work had better global functioning, fewer symptoms, greater job tenure and better functioning. So, you know, and then to speak of suicidality, I wanted to just mention a 2020 study found that veterans lacking money to cover basic needs, you know, food, clothing, shelter, had tripled the risk of endorsing suicidal ideation compared to veterans who had money, 22% versus 7%. So that's huge. Another piece of research from 2019 examined veterans and homelessness showed that the peak risk of suicide occurs just prior to eviction. So, you know, we have when we have people working and earning that money and able to pay for those needs. And I'd like to highlight in 2022, the VA did a study of our information collection system is NEPIC, Northeast Program Evaluation Center, N-E-P-E-C. And they took data from the beginning of voc rehab in VHA, which was like 2006, I believe, quote me on that. Up until 2019, and they looked at across the country, they looked at outcomes for veterans who discharged from voc rehab, successfully employed versus those who don't. And they saw that employment was associated with a 45% lower suicide risk in the first year following discharge from voc rehab. So to me, nothing's speaks about the power of work more than that statistic right there.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC: 59:16

Qualitative and quantitative data have their role to play, right? And these stories can help folks resonate with the idea of, you know, feeling like they can put themselves in that situation and understand a fragment of what that might be like shows how important it is to be able to first figure out if someone's, you know, functional abilities and limitations are going to allow them to return to work or a new career, a new job or something like that. But then also and I think Rebecca and Christopher mentioned this, if work isn't an option, what sort of integration into a community or to a collective setting can someone experience or can someone pursue to be able to still feel that camaraderie, that sense of I'm showing up and my being here is making a contribution to something bigger than myself. And I think I would imagine, I don't want to speak for veterans, but I would imagine that's a huge part of your psyche for pursuing military service and then being a part of that. And as I think all three of you mentioned coming out of that, that's something that you can really start to miss is that feeling of being a part of something bigger than yourself. We'll make sure to link those studies that Keith mentioned in the show notes for everyone to check out. I think resiliency is probably a word a lot of us would connect to the idea of a veteran or someone who has served in the military and this idea of resiliency specifically for veterans navigating a disability as they return to civilian life. I'm curious in your perspective, how did the tenets of military service service play a role in their approach to the experience of working with a certified rehabilitation counselor or anybody who might be providing them services to navigate living with a disability? It's an interesting question. The

Christopher Briggman: 1:00:55

word resiliency almost feels too small for what I've seen. Veterans have this ingrained ability to adapt and improvise, what the military calls improvise, adapt, overcome. Another one of those sayings, right, Keith? That doesn't disappear when they face a disability. In In fact, I see it shine. Sure, there are moments of frustration and grief, but I've also seen a vet in a wheelchair outfish half the able-bodied folks on a pier because he figured out a new setup, right? You know, their service taught them to problem solve under fire and they bring that same grit to the challenges of disability. And it genuinely inspires me and has inspired me to push to accomplish all the things that I'm doing right now. I often think I'm doing too much. back off, but then I remember the veterans that I've worked with and what they went through. And I'm like, I can still move. I can still think I still have, you know, the ability to do that. I'm going to do as much as I can with this life. And that was in, in the heavy combat groups that I ran as a readjustment counseling therapist, something I learned meeting with veterans as a folk grief counselor in Asheville, speaking with them then, like, I think that's the thing about veterans that I appreciate the most outside of their service is just their resiliency. So like I said, I think it's just too small a word.

Monnie Rebecca Waltz: 1:02:13

The other thing that I thought of was these are people who are thrown in with people they didn't know from all walks of life, all socioeconomic backgrounds, a diverse people group. They had to adapt and learn different religions to be around people with different politics, gender. It doesn't matter. And they had to learn to work together as a team. And so they bring that already to the table. And so that adaptability is just very deep for them. And that's That's what that question kind of made me kind of hone in on that aspect of it. And they're really good at that. And they're very, the camaraderie with each other in different branches, it's really, I think it's cute when they're, you know, they're starting to do better here and we get to hear them teasing each other in the hallway, but they're friends and they're encouraging each other and trying to support each other in their recovery. And it's just, it's a beautiful thing. It really is.

Christopher Briggman: 1:03:05

That is the most hilarious thing to witness too. They're like siblings. It's so funny.

Keith Hosey: 1:03:11

Yeah. That's part of any branch. Resiliency is part of what they learned in the military. And I think our veterans, more so than much of our general public, are really great at adapting to changing environments, quickly changing environments, able to pivot when they need to. For example, the discipline that veterans learn in the military service can lend itself sometimes to adjusting to a new disability, right? So, you know, I may decide I'm done with physical therapy after three times, but the discipline and also the structure of rank and respect, you know, that veteran may go to all those sessions because A, the doctor said you should and the doctor is a respected physician and B, you're disciplined enough to go and do that. plus everything everyone else said.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC: 1:04:18

That's the funny thing about having three guests on one podcast, right? It's whoever gets to go first. It feels like really kind of not, especially with you three being so thoughtful through this process, someone knocks it out of the park and then you have to be like, how do I beat, not beat it, right? It's not a competition, but you know, it's like, okay, what else can I add? Because you've all, you know, it's been really inspiring and informative for me to hear from all of you today. So again, I can't thank you all enough for taking time to speak with us. And we like to end these conversations with the same question because I find the through line with everybody who works in this sort of field is this general sense of purpose and specifically feeling like the work that you do is a calling that you've answered in terms of being a certified rehabilitation counselor and doing the work that you do. What brings you joy?

Monnie Rebecca Waltz: 1:05:06

Well, that's an easy, that's the easiest question you've asked today, probably. So I'm happy to go first on this one. I think the veteran success stories and they change the lives that come out of our work. And even as a team. It's my whole team that does it. It's not just as something I do. It kind of takes everybody and it takes the interdisciplinary team's effort. There's no question in your mind that it's not a singular effort that's going to make a difference here, but it's a group process. It's the physical difference in their faces when they're looking at the floor at first and then they're laughing and they're talking and it's seven, eight months later and they've been making money and they're able to buy something for their child for a birthday or a holiday they're smiling, they're happier, they're laughing. Seeing that in the new career path and they're excited about the new job or a different job that they're going into is so rewarding.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC: 1:05:57

Keith, how about you? What brings you joy in the work that you do?

Keith Hosey: 1:06:01

So for me, it is and I think it has always been seeing that transformation of the individual and sharing their joy when they get a job. I've There's just no better feeling. I remember early in my career when I was working at the Center for Independent Living here, I was supervising a small team of employment specialists. And my boss and I were walking out of the center, another CRC, George Parsons, a great mentor of mine. And a gentleman came in and asked for one of my employment staff. And he He's already left. Can we give him a message? And the gentleman said, yeah, I got that job. I finally got that job. And I'll be honest, it was a long day and I wasn't feeling it. I was trying to go home and I said, okay, well, thank you. I will let him know. And George stopped in his tracks and he looked at this gentleman and he said, I am so happy for you. Congratulations. You must be so proud. And he just went on and threw a tick parade for this guy. And I thought, where did I lose that? And so I've carried that since then. And so when my team has meetings, I start with success stories every day in the morning when we huddle before we go out in the day. I ask for, are there any success stories? Does anyone have anyone getting interviews today? What are we looking at? Because it's easy sometimes in the red tape or in the whatever to lose sight of what we're here for. And what we're here for is to help rehabilitate individuals into the workforce so that they can live as someone who came through the state voc rehab system. I see myself as someone who is helping lift his brothers and sisters in disability out of poverty, lifting them economically. And it's so important because without economic independence, People don't have true independence.

Christopher Briggman: 1:08:19

Christopher. Thanks. And Keith and Rebecca, you guys are amazing. I get the feeling of nostalgia hearing you guys talk about the work you're doing. So keep the energy, man. Keep that energy. For me, what really brings me joy in this work, it's those quiet moments when a veteran rediscovers himself or a civilian, right? I've seen men and women coming to my office weighed down by PTSD or depression or the belief that their best days were behind them. And then after some work together, they start to realize I have skills. I have a mission. Watching that shift from hopelessness to purpose is really what fills me up. It's not just a feel-good story. It's the data that shows among veterans with PTSD, those who engage in VA programs, counseling, rehab services, the suicide rates drop, right? And I don't have the statistic for it. I'll let Keith share that information for you. for you, but I think it's somewhere around 25 to 20%, I think. To me, it means that every conversation, every evaluation, and every connection matters. So it's not just about my career. It's a calling. The CRC gives me a platform to do what I believe I was meant to do, stand in those critical moments with veterans and help them find their way forward, do the same for civilians. And that's the joy, seeing them reclaim not just a job, but their sense of self and future.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC: 1:09:48

Thank you to Rebecca, Christopher, and Keith for an excellent conversation on this episode of Inside Rehabilitation Counseling. If you have any comments or insights to share about today's topic, email us at contactus at crccertification.com. You can also find us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn by searching CRC Cert. Like, subscribe, and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform, including Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to us today. And hey, if you have a nice day, for a future episode of the show or you want to come on and tell us about your work in rehabilitation counseling, get in touch. We'd love to have you. Thanks for listening to Inside Rehabilitation Counseling. I'm CRCC Director of Communications and Marketing, Taylor Bauer. Take care.