Interdisciplinary Collaboration with Kathleen Marie Oertle, PhD, CRC, LVRC-Utah and Cassandra McCall, Ph.D.

The need for strong transition education and services is rooted in a broader cultural and public commitment to equity, access, and full community participation for people with disabilities. In the United States, youth with disabilities continue to experience disproportionately lower rates of employment, postsecondary enrollment, and independent living compared to their peers without disabilities. These gaps are not simply individual challenges—they reflect systemic barriers in education, workforce access, and community inclusion.

A task like tackling structured supports for students requires many bright minds, and Utah State University is taking an interdisciplinary approach with their new Transition Education and Services Emphasis.

Dr. Kathleen Oertle, is a CRC and Associate Professor in the Department of Special Education and Rehabilitation Counseling at Utah State University. She’s joined on this episode by Dr. Cassandra McCall, who is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Engineering Education. Kat and Cass, as they both like to go by, are the co-principal investigators for Utah State’s new Transition Education and Services Emphasis. As one of five grantees in the Rehabilitation Services Administration’s Comprehensive System of Personnel Development competition, this program is helping shift the narrative from limitation to opportunity for students with disabilities pursuing their goals. 

More Information about the Transition Education and Services Emphasis

Dr. Oertle's Bio

https://cehs.usu.edu/sperc/directory/oertle-kathleen

https://www.usu.edu/experts/profile/kathleen-oertle/

 Dr. McCall's Bio

https://engineering.usu.edu/eed/people/faculty/mccall-cassandra

https://www.usu.edu/experts/profile/cassandra-mccall/

CRCC Links

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Transcript

Taylor Bauer, CRCC 0:04

Welcome back for another episode of Inside Rehabilitation Counseling. I'm Taylor Bauer, CRCC Director of Communication and Marketing, and I'm very glad you're back with us to explore the art and science of rehabilitation counseling in this episode. The need for strong transition education and services is rooted in a broader cultural and public commitment to equity, access, and full community participation for people with disabilities. In the United States, youth with disabilities continue to experience disproportionately low rates of employment, post-secondary enrollment, and independent living compared to their peers without disabilities. These gaps are not simply individual challenges either. They reflect systemic barriers in education, workforce access, and community inclusion. A task like tackling structured supports for students requires many bright minds, and Utah State University is taking an interdisciplinary approach with their new transition education and services emphasis. Dr. Kathleen Oertle is a CRC and associate professor in the Department of Special Education and Rehabilitation Counseling at Utah State. She's joined on this episode by Dr. Cassandra McCall, who is an assistant professor in the Department of Engineering Education. Kat and Cass, as they both like to go by, are the co-principal investigators for Utah State's new Transition Education and Services Emphasis. As just one of five grantees for the Rehabilitation Service Administration's comprehensive system of personnel development competition, this program is helping shift the narrative from limitation to opportunity when it comes to students with disabilities pursuing their goals. In this episode, we overview the program, talk about the paths that brought Kat and Cass together, and why interdisciplinary collaboration is crucial for addressing complex systems impacting individuals with disabilities. I hope you enjoy this insightful conversation as much as I did. Cass, thank you so much for joining me on Inside Rehabilitation Counseling. I'm so excited to get to hear from you about this exciting new project and learn from both of you. And I feel like a great place to start is kind of where you both began and how you uh took a career journey to end up where you are today in your roles at Utah State University. Um Kat, can we start with you? How did you end up in this role with Utah State and sort of uh find rehabilitation counseling as a field?

Kat Oertle, CRC 2:24

Okay, well, thanks first of all for having us here. I appreciate it, Taylor, and your interest in talking about what we're up to and talking about rehab counseling. So I appreciate your time. Um I started my journey, uh my path to Utah State started in 2013. So I'm in my 13th year here. I do come from the Midwest. Um I went to the University of Illinois in Champaign, Urbana, and that's where I moved from. At the time I was working for the graduate college, looking at graduate education and studying what it takes to be successful in higher ed, um which took me a little bit off my path with re-up counseling, but was uh related because I was looking at disability and uh people with disability and their access across the university, but not just students, also faculty, right, and uh staff experiences. However, I was looking for a place that had both re-up counseling and special education in the same department, and it's how I ended up finding my way to Utah State University because we have a department that has both those, including uh applied behavior analysis in the same department. At the time I was working at the grad college, I was really focused on um broad access, but also specifically to engineering and engineering education, because the dean that I worked for at the time and colleagues there also had a strong interest. And University of Illinois is known for engineering as uh one of the top programs, right? So it's uh it's fascinating. Then I met Cass here at Utah State University in 2020, um, which you know leads her to introduce herself um with her background in engineering. So I would say that's the short version of how I got that was great.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC 4:16

That was also like a professional expert segue over to Cass, which like, you know, you could host the show, honestly. That was very smooth. Um Cass, how about you? Uh kind of what was your career journey like to get you to the position you're in now?

Cass McCall 4:29

Yeah. So I mean, I uh my biggest thing growing up was I just always loved buildings and bridges and things like that. And so my I grew up in a really tiny town in South Dakota, so we didn't have those things. And the closest town, well, the closest city that we could go to was Denver, which was five hours away. And so as a kid, I just remember going to Denver with my family to visit my uncle, and I just loved buildings and bridges and roads and kind of anything anything that had to do with the built environment. And so my dad was the one who really encouraged me to go into engineering. And so typically one thing we see in engineering is that you kind of need that person that tells you, like, oh, you should consider this. And so, in in past research I've done, my story's pretty similar to a lot of other people who go into engineering. And and as I got into engineering and particularly civil engineering, like I kind of realized like there were just kind of comments like, oh, you're too outgoing to be an engineer, or um, you know, oh, you you you communicate really well. Like, why are why are you in engineering? And and there were a lot of those conversations that kind of caught my attention and I I really internalized for better or worse, and I I would say for better because it's led me to where I am now. And and so from there, when I got done with my undergrad degree, I learned about this field called engineering education, and I realized that I enjoyed teaching, I wanted to improve the experiences of students and kind of broaden what we think about when we say who engineers are, you know, and and what they do. And so um took that, went and got my uh PhD in engineering education at Virginia Tech. And during that time, I was also diagnosed with my own um visual impairment. So I have Stargardt's disease, so I am partially blind, so I identify as an engineering educator who is disabled. Um, and that got me into the research area that I'm currently in, where I'm promoting the access of engineering education to people with disabilities. And that then leads me to going to Utah State. They have an engineering education department. We're in a transition where that's going away, but but staying at Utah State and and I met Kat um pretty quickly after I got hired at Utah State. It was like I I started during COVID. So I started in August 2020, and I think Kat and I first started talking in October, and the rest is really history. I mean, we just we we connected um on a lot of different levels, personal levels, professional levels, um, and we saw a really great potential for where our work could go together, and and for both of us, it just seems like engineering and transition and re-hab counseling um are just really natural extensions of each other. And so that's that's where we've been since is just trying to pave the path together um and learn from each other and learn from our different networks and people we work with. And it's been great.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC 8:01

It sounds like it. And you know, to take those kind of maybe informal introductory conversations and turn it into something as incredible as this program is such a great way to like prove that like not only did you two hit it off, but like uh as you mentioned, Cass, those those alignments between um accessibility and transition and things like that being so natural, not only to rehabilitation counseling, but like any discipline or department, because I mean, people with disabilities should be able to navigate and pursue anything uh academically that they want to. And it's fantastic to see that kind of overlap between both of your interests professionally and personally. You were both the principal investigators for Utah State University's transition education and services emphasis. Um, I'd love if you could both tell me a little bit about that program and sort of what motivated you, and you kind of hinted at this a little bit, but um, what motivated you to collaborate specifically between your departments and address that progress and success of students and youth with disabilities?

Kat Oertle, CRC 9:03

Well, first of all, we're grateful to the opportunity from the Department of Education and Rehab Services Administration to write for training grants. So we were fortunate enough to get um some training grant funding that can support people um in their interest in rehab counseling and also their interest or emphasis in transition education and services. So there are uh funds that can uh support the scholarship of students that are interested in these areas, but also there's the infrastructure's uh support which for instruction, right? And also for that um coordination. So we do have a program coordinator who helps us with some of the infrastructure. You know, we were really interested in bringing together an interdisciplinary focus, recognizing that if we're focusing on the transition end of things, and even if we're focusing on the broader uh population to think about Rib Counselors as a whole, bringing together these conversations, and I would add educators as well, so secondary ed um broadly, but special educators specifically, to bring together conversations in places where we don't typically have these interdisciplinary conversations, and then also thinking about how we can build from the interests that each of these areas have. Um, and what Cass and I were recognizing in the places that we would go for presentations, um meetings, um, our own inner work, um, is that there were these parallel conversations happening and even these places to work together when we think about legal mandates and codes of ethics that really naturally fit together. And then as Cass was introducing her interest in building bridges, um I have the same interest. I just don't physically have uh the training, right, to build a bridge as she does. Um, but I was coming from the social construction of bridge building. Um, how do we use this privilege we have and this these funded mandates? Um, and I call it privilege because we have gotten to a point where we've got this funding when we look at special education and re-amp counseling that really is pivotal when we think about its application and making a difference and supporting young people in their early preparation. Students in school and youth who are separated from school are named in the both laws when we talk about special ed and re-ab counseling. And thinking about how that privilege space can be used in a way where we work together as collaborators. Um, and moreover, teaching collaboration to the young people that we're serving and supporting their parents to be collaborators, uh, family members, right, that are identified by the person, but really using that space as an organic space to build bridges in both the figurative and the literal sense. Um, because we think a lot about uh the construction within our ecosystems and how those ecosystems are manifest in our application and our practice, recognizing that training's influ influential in how we practice. And as you mentioned earlier, in some ways it's fairly new when we think about transition and transition services. So being a a space where we can support that innovative and also the professional development needed, right, to support people to grow in ways that help them feel good about the work they're doing. Um it's overwhelming if you're not trained to do what you're being asked to do. And we have seen both the value in the training, but moreover, bringing people together in a space where they can talk with one another and support each other in places where this doesn't naturally happen without some kind of effort like this.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC 13:10

Yeah, and I think you kind of alluded to this, but it's it's one of those things where like you can imagine in one field or discipline, you're experiencing these hurdles or challenges. And then you start talking to people in other disciplines, and it's like, oh, we're experiencing the same sorts of things. What training or education gaps are there where we can all be feeling better equipped to figure out a way to support those who are needing the support to make this transition? And then also like just the knowledge and uh abilities to be able to go into a situation to use those skills confidently.

Kat Oertle, CRC 13:44

Should I hear you talking, Taylor? I just uh it really compels me to think about identity and this idea of what disability is, how this construct um is shaped, right? As you heard Cass talking about her experiences and how we discuss disability. So I also have a disability. Mine happened during my transition age. Um when I had a motorcycle accident while I was an undergrad, right? Um, and as a result of it had a traumatic brain injury, you know. But like Cass was talking about um my identity and disability and how that fit within my life has been shaping. And it's actually much more strongly I in my identity now than it ever was um because of who I've met and how it's been talked about in the trainings that we've developed and the engagement within those settings, right? So um one of the things when Cass and I first met, um I had just met Judy Human um early on in the that spring, so March of 2020, and she and I were working together on uh creating a summit space. It was two weeks. Um I just met Cass two weeks before when this event was gonna happen, and I invited Cass to come. Um and as a result of those conversations too. Oh, we've had two more summits since, and you know, Judy has passed away at this point. Um, but those messages, right, about identity, because she would say to me, Kat, why don't you tell people you've had a disability? And I'm laughing only because I'm like, well, when do you bring it up? Because I had associated it with accommodation. So not everybody with a disability needs accommodation, right? Um it's situational. And this is something too when we think about transition. It's so important when we think about how disability is defined in the secondary setting. There are these 13 diagnostic categories that are about the uh law IDEA, right? Come from there. When we get into our adult spaces, those 13 diagnostic categories aren't the way that the ADA discusses disability. You know, we're talking now about function and activity. This is why when Judy said, why don't you talk about if we only put it together with accommodations, then we actually lose a huge part of this conversation about what it means to be somebody with a disability, to work, to learn, to live, to participate. And this is why the work that Cass and I are doing, and our colleagues that are part of our advisory board that you know took these courses of helping us shape them, you know, those conversations help us continue to push this space to have current and fresh conversations about what it means to support, especially young people, as they're moving through their lifetime, through their full potential, right? How we're supporting that as we talk about disability and what it means to support people and even what it means to be a re up counselor, right, or certified as a re-eb counselor. Um and just mentioning too, right, we have a pathway for the folks that want to pursue the CRC. So, you know, um it's not exclusive when we think about the emphasis and transition. There are those standard courses you would think about too um within those domains. And then I could make a plug for uh Utah State University, you know, we are a place that has had a um successful uh graduate, you know, participation in the CRC. And then just imagine too, I'm an old schooler, I've had mine since 1996, and you know, maintain the credentials since that time, value it, right? The importance of maintaining that. Because it sets a standard, I think, for the things we're discussing, like um the history, um the disability rights movement, and also what it means to be impactful as a rehab counselor.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC 17:45

Absolutely. Yeah, and we're and we're so grateful to Utah State University um for being one of our seven centers of excellence uh for preparing future CRCs, which is fantastic. And I think you know, we can look at things like exam scores as an example of a program's efficacy. I also think you have to look at things like what you two are collaborating on in terms of just like the way that these concepts and theories get applied and um the motivations behind them and like what impact you're hoping that they'll have. And um really just again fascinated by the the the concept of you know reaching outside of a department and looking to others who have similar interests and how how transformative that can be.

Kat Oertle, CRC 18:24

For sure. Well, we figure too. I mean, if you if we're gonna break into other disciplinary areas as far as occupations, we've gotta reach out and know about each other. You know, we've been um looking at some of the 9-11 data, and you can see where and 9-11s, the Rehab Service Administration data. You know, we're looking at outcomes, you can definitely see the areas that would be covered under the STEM occupational spaces and especially engineering. Those professional areas are totally underdeveloped. And you know, I just can't be convinced because looking at the data doesn't convince me that there's no one with disabilities interested in those particular areas. Um it does the data doesn't support that, right? And CAS and my partnership give us a chance to um with our own spaces, but also our students, right? So CASS's students and their research, what they're doing in engineering, touches the classes. They come and talk to our students.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC 19:26

So I uh I I think one of the things that is most appealing about like a program like this to me is the idea that you have a specific emphasis on a challenge directly, right? Like we know that things like disability and the the challenges that come with with transitioning from one chapter of your life to the next can be um daunting without sort of a framework for understanding not only how to support people going through that, but also if you're an individual going through that, what am I supposed to inspect from this uh experience and how do I best go about setting myself up for success in the future? Um, Cass, we can maybe start with you for this one. Can you describe a few of the challenges occurring in maybe disability services, but just maybe in the working world in general that an emphasis program like this addresses, particularly when it comes to specifically serving a transition-aged population?

Cass McCall 20:18

Yeah, definitely. Well, so Kat mentioned these parallel conversations that that both of our fields are having. And from the engineering side, and and this was one of the reasons why I was so excited to connect with Kat when I first got to USU was that like it in engineering education, like a lot of our research is in the post-secondary space and and trying to diversify, broaden, grow the engineering workforce. Um, and with that, one of the things that's been very challenging for us is like how do we even access disabled youth and students? So those, you know, pre-transition age and then transition age, and you know, because we recognize, you know, you can use whatever metaphor you'd like. And and in engineering ed, one of the big ones we use a lot is the the pipeline, you know, the the workforce pipeline, you know. Um and there's a lot of issues with that, right? Like, you know, people aren't fluid and they don't behave like fluids, and you know, there's there's different cracks and you know, all sorts of other things. Um we could get into jokes about laminar flow and how people move through pipes as fluid, but but in in terms of like pathways, pipelines, however you want to talk about it. Um one of the key things is we're like we don't know even how to access these people to get them into engineering in the first place. And and we don't have background in the policy or the practices or uh other than what like we would have experienced in our own K twelve and in transition age settings. And so Um, so it was so exciting, and I know as a priority for the engineering field to get more disabled engineers in the field, right? Because it's like the the more diverse perspectives we have, the more diverse systems we can build, and the more diverse infrastructure from a civil engineering perspective we can build. And so it was so exciting to connect with Kat because it felt like this really natural puzzle piece that went together. The stuff that I didn't know, Kat could teach it to me, and Kat could help me develop those that knowledge and those skills. And then the stuff that she was like, I don't know how to move forward on this space. And once they get in, you know, to get them into engineering and these fields that really need more representation, um, I could I could bridge that gap. And so yeah, I and I always think about us as puzzle pieces that just like it's like, oh, I finally found that piece that completes my puzzle. And and that's how I've really envisioned a lot of the collaborations that we've done. And the fun part has been, you know, as Kat mentioned, I've come into her classes, um, and I've I've often tried to employ a lot of teaching strategies that she's employed in her classes in my engineering classes. Um, and it's it's been really great because it's we get these really interesting conversations about past experience, knowledge that all of our students bring, and it's really started to shape the things that we're thinking about in terms of our training opportunities and and how we're even thinking about what training looks like in these contexts.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC 23:52

Absolutely. Yeah, that's fascinating that even like there's a potential for uh sharing knowledge and approaches to pedagogy, whether it's training or in a traditional classroom, that that depending on the uh discipline is going to maybe vary. And I even think, you know, beginning of our conversation, Cass, when you said like people looked at your communication styles and said, like, you're not usually seeing engineers maybe this vibrant or this outgoing. Um I and I'm sure it's not some insidious plot to try to congeal all engineers into one personality, but even the fact that someone would think like, oh, you're not like a typical engineer, that that makes me think, you know, because we often see so many people pursue things based on if they see someone like themselves in a in a position like that, right? Um how many people who were kind of outgoing were told, like, no, engineers are very serious and very, you know, always right, you know, stern or whatever it might be. I don't want to start getting into engineering stereotypes with one on the side podcast. But um you don't want to ever push people away from pursuing something they might be really great at or passionate about because maybe they don't fit the mold, if you will. And I think for people with disabilities in general, everywhere they look, they see a society that is not looking to center their experiences or perspective in really anything, right? Um and so it was it it would have I would imagine it would be very difficult for someone who wanted to go into engineering or something STEM related, who doesn't have maybe a ton of examples of people with a disability who are in that space doing those things, to feel like, oh, I could do that. And I think that's why, especially at a transition age, um having someone be able to help you navigate that and maybe encourage you, even if there isn't that um star professional that everyone points to as like C, they if they can do it, you can do it too. Um having those access to those services could be uh quite literally life-changing, which is so fantastic.

Cass McCall 25:47

Yeah. And and from from an engineering education perspective, you know, getting getting access to those spaces. Um I mean, for example, one of Kat's past students um invited me to a meeting with one of her clients and his mom to talk about engineering. And so the plan now is that um this client is going to be starting in the engineering, first year engineering program at Utah State in the fall. And it was really getting into the nuance of like, what do engineers do? What is what do their jobs look like? What are their and you know, what what training do they have? What are the expectations once they get into school? And as a faculty member who teaches in these spaces, I could answer all those questions and I could answer them confidently. And it was, it's like as Kat mentioned, those brid, you know, building those bridges and making those connections. Like if I was outside of the rehab space, if I didn't know Kat, I don't know if I would be able to get into those spaces or even know how to start to get into those spaces. And so even just, you know, it's it's interesting. We're talking about disability and access, and like access is such a key thing on so many levels.

Kat Oertle, CRC 27:12

Yes, the opportunity, right? To have those opportunities. And I yeah, it's and I just to add to what Cass was saying, um, you know, she talked about engineering, learning about services or the up where students might be, right? Uh where we might find students, uh disabled students, uh that are or youth that are interested in pursuing engineering or STEM fields. You know, and it's the other part too that I think about is how do we get um our educators and rehab counselors knowledgeable about the different opportunities there are when we like to I like to joke anyway that when we present, I'll say, and we never ask for a vote, but I'm like how many people think an engineer is like whoot boot, you know, drives a train. We can come up with the hat, but uh there's just such a spectrum, right, of what engineers can do. You know, you think about design, design principles. This is the part that I just I get so excited with Cass, you know, uh the way she becomes about things from a design perspective, um, that natural uh focus on what's the solution to the problem, these places are where we definitely um have a universal connection. And these things can be taught in our classes. Oh boy, and they naturally fit with the actualization of the laws. If we're ever going to have the true promise of the rehab act and 504, right, or IDA and its connection to access to academics in equal ways, um, this idea of what those laws mean, to actualize them, we really do need to implement this design space, this um practice of solution-minded, you know, focusing on the solution can um and that it will be solved rather than an ongoing discussion of a problem. I think it's key. We do focus quite a bit in our program, um, especially if you're talking about the transition class, the fundamental skills and transition, on what the law and the components are the law are, not in the dry, boring way folks might think of. I don't know, maybe they don't think that way, but in the way, how do we apply this in real practice, right? What's it look like when you're doing your work? And as Cass mentioned, it's um resulted in people taking action in ways that have actually made changes. Um not in a long, you know, where we have to wait for a really long time, like in real time. I you know, and students will say this has created a space where I've rethought my practice and what I do and how I support young people in their lives. Um, it's turned it, right? Where it's not my responsibility to come up with the answers for what your life will be. Um, my responsibility is to facilitate the process of your growth. Oh boy, to be an educator and counselor.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC 30:12

Yeah, and I think that that leads really nicely into kind of what I want to dive into a little deeper now in terms of, you know, the the emphasis program and how specifically both of your backgrounds are contributing to to the curriculum and kind of the the framework of the program specific to your training and education as a certified rehabilitation counselor. In what ways do you believe that your background has directly contributed to kind of the approach and the the goals for this program as the co-PI on this?

Kat Oertle, CRC 30:41

Yeah, well, I I would start with uh love of lifelong learning. I mean, that's the the key. I am a first generation college kid, you know. Uh my parents, uh my grandparents didn't go to college, but they valued education and learning, a continuum of learning. And because of that, um I was I'm always open to learning more, right? So I thought I'd be um a veterinarian. I started my path into animal science. Um, I love science that's about problem solving, right? Or solution-minded. It's using the scientific method to identify problems and solve them. Um I was following that path and found myself deciding I'm not going to eat meat. And I'm an animal scientist. I won't get into that too much further, but I found myself then heading into veterinary medicine, but in a different way as a technician. And I kind of did things backwards where I had that bachelor's degree and then got my associate's degree, applied skills. And I was recruited at the veterinary hospital because I wanted to go into social work. I was thinking social work was the thing with animals, helping people, you know, stuff like that. And I met some folks in rehab counseling, uh, Dr. John Track, who's uh passed away at this point. Um, so a part of my journey is to carry on his legacy. He was trained in both special ed and rehab counseling. And he would talk about being about being bringing people together about employment. And that's where I see myself, drawing on my animal science, drawing on my rehab counseling, and then going on for my PhD in special education, um, and then working in current tech ed and in engineering, right? So how do you draw on all these different things to tell your own story? And that's the thing I feel like's most important is bringing these things together into my research and then into the things I teach as a way to help people draw on all of their strengths to tell their story and encourage others to do the same. Um, it's up to us to draw in those different educational opportunities to make the most of them. Um, and then the people we meet. So those relationships. So part of what influences the curriculum and our advisory panel are graduates who come back and talk in class as well about the wonderful things they're doing all over the country. Oh, and as a plug, you should reach out to them to talk about what they're doing. If you want their names, I'll give them to you. I'll take them, yeah. Yes. And they're represented on our website too, with a map, right, to look at where folks are. Um it's just it's to think about how do you continue to bring folks together in ways to have those conversations so that um we can support each other in our growth. Um so our my research directly impacts the curriculum, Collaborate for Change as a funded research project. Um, we were fortunate enough to get funding from NIDLE on a field-initiated project. And then CASS has been instrumental in taking a lead to think about transition engineered collaborative or what we call short tech as a way to take those same things and to start, yeah, there they are, published in our in a in the journal rehab. Um, you know, how do we take those and operationalize it in a way that we have um the competencies as the basis, right, and the tools then to implement, but not in a prescriptive way, in a way that folks can individualize it based on the situations that they're in, knowing that you know, the way we deliver services as an individual, as the educator, a counselor, oh, and also structured by the law and those requirements, right? And what we're expected to do in our agencies. So yeah, that's definitely a directly uh lived experience and then our research practice that influences the the curriculum and and uh those relationships that then um really take that uh space to make it genuine for the person.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC 35:00

Cass, how about you? What elements of your background in education uh have you leaned on most heavily throughout this process to ensure that the curriculum for this program is as impactful as possible for those who are participating?

Cass McCall 35:12

Yeah, I think I mean it a lot of it, and and I think this is why Kat and I work so well together, because I I would say that lived experience and that ongoing storytelling, recognizing that you're part of like all of us, right? All of us are part of this bigger story. And a lot of my interdisciplinary experience came in while I was a doc student. And one of, well, one of my I was co-advised in my grad program, and one of my advisors, she had a background in linguistics. So she's actually a uh PhD in linguistics who taught in an engineering education program. Um and then one of my committee members um had a background in chemical engineering, but then went on and got her PhD in um writing and rhetoric, I believe. And so like I had this very interdisciplinary academic upbringing, um, in addition to my civil engineering faculty members and stuff. And so I think what that really taught me was just really valuing the contributions that other disciplines bring and really how you have more in common than you do different. Um, and really the differences are really this, these like details of each of each field, right? And so I think then that really led to me communicating to different audiences, um, wanting to communicate to different audiences um and reaching out to different groups. And so then Kat was really someone who just really came in and helped me develop those skills even more and reach broader audiences. And even like you, Taylor, like we talk about impact and things like if we typically if we're publishing something, it takes a lot longer to get that message out there. But things like this podcast, you know, whoever's listening to it, you know, that there's already impact right there. And so thinking about even these unconventional or like emerging different ways of communicating and talking with people. And in the program, you know, that's one thing I really admire about Kat is she's always trying to think about how we can involve more people in different ways and bringing them in in ways that aren't typically seen, like having research participants and students of ours come into these spaces and serve as authorities on these different topics because they are the expert on their own experiences. And so really leaning on that and recognizing what different people can bring. Um, that's kind of the meta thing that that I've learned throughout my education that's really contributed to this.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC 38:11

Like your program or whatever you're working on, research paper, journal article, anything like that is only going to be as strong as your ability to be creative and collaborative, right? And I think looking for people even outside of your departments or people who you don't get a chance to work with all the time. Um, can can provide an insurmountable amount of value to just changing up the approach or the the systems in which you're used to operating in and uh can can yield results that I think could surprise everybody, even those who are maybe used to kind of doing things across departments, you know, like uh rehabilitation counselors or CRCs don't just always work in one space, they work in a bunch of different places. So they might be working alongside nurses and doctors, they might be working alongside uh educators or you know, uh special ed professionals. And I think being able to have to know your skills and then also be willing to look and see what other skills do those around me possess that I can lean on to make what I do richer is really kind of the heart of why this sort of work is so impactful. Um and I think, you know, specific to kind of the the heart behind not only this program, but also just kind of rehabilitation counseling specifically as a field, we know that disability is just very misunderstood across all parts of society, right? And especially in the way that people see individuals with disabilities as capable of working or engaging in their community, um, and and really just kind of working to not have those individuals defined solely by a diagnosis or a condition that they have. So I'm I'm curious for folks who are listening to this today, um, how can people, you know, who maybe aren't going to go through this program or thinking about going through this program combine their daily work with essential advocacy for transition age clients and the disability community as a whole?

Kat Oertle, CRC 39:59

All right. That's a great question. Um, first of all, you mentioned some things about predetermination, right? So I think one of the things that's at the heart of what we're our messaging in our research and even our lived experience is to have this intellectual curiosity and openness to what can happen as opposed to deciding before you try something, right? And especially if we're talking about young people and this idea of predictability of the future. Um Cass and I both are mixed method researchers. Um so it applies this idea of different ways of knowing and a humbleness about that intellectual curiosity that we uh, at least I think by model, instill in all those that are around us because of the way we approach what we're doing. Um so I think when practice, when we're talking about practice, it's not assuming we have the answer. It's uh being open to that intellectual curiosity and this exploring of what can be and challenging those myths that are there about predictability. Um especially when you've mentioned earlier these uh, you know, historical or even um attitudinal barriers that are uh created around category of disability or the way we might think about who belongs and doesn't, um that uh we may be conscious, uh, but most often are not. Um they're implicit biases that are there and often come from a place of intentionality, of care and protection, not of harm. So recognizing that, right, that we are a collective of adults that do care about who we're serving, um, regardless of age. So we might be serving an older population or mid-age. Um, we are a caring profession. Um that is true for engineers. And it's represented in the way your cats talk about her profession, right, and her approach to what she does. Um that care though sometimes can be um part of that challenge because of how we think about what care looks like in practice, um, and recognizing the humbleness there, right? This dignity of risk that we want for ourselves, but that also can feel scary at times, right? Or feel as though we're not doing our job as effective as we should be, because we're not protecting someone from something. You know, when reality we can't protect even ourselves from living, and nor should we want to, right? And if we go back to that intention of the law, if we look at our codes of ethics even, and I, you know, I love the way the CRC code of ethics are written. It's what we teach in news. Um, when we think about our responsibility to inform people so that they have an informed choice and decision-making process, um, that there is a continuum of learning those skills when we're talking about younger people in particular and their families, right? Um and I think a a higher level of our responsibility is helping young people talk to their families um and even older people to talk with that infrastructure, that we're a facilitator of those conversations too. And then that is important when we're thinking again about that influence on practice and then recognizing we're not by ourselves. That's I think the neat thing when you think about the program, that there's this place where you can come back um and be connected if you want to. It's not enforced like you know, some kind of uh r requirement, but it certainly is open. And Tess and I are open to continuing those relationships. Um, we welcome them. Uh it keeps us in a place where we are grounded in the present um and practice. This as well.

Cass McCall 44:01

So Yeah, I think I think the big thing is just and Kat and I talk about this a lot, you know, really really just stopping to be present, be in that moment and listen um intentionally about what's going on. Because one of the things that we see a lot too in engineering is like we see a lot of um autistic people or people with autism, however people identify, but we see a a lot of times we see autistic individuals getting kind of almost pushed towards engineering because of a lot of those characteristics that tend to align with you know the stereotypes of of engineering and the stereotypes of autism. And a lot of times those people see those things as aligning. And it's like, yeah, not not every autistic person likes math, you know, just like any non, you know, any neurotypical person, you know, not all of us like to just draw, you know. I mean, and so it's it's it's recognizing the individual out individuality of those things and that people have like just like anybody else, like just like any person, you know, any person with a disability is gonna have different interests and and likes and and dislikes. And I think to really stop and open yourself up, as Kat mentioned earlier, is kind of vulnerable, recognizing that you don't have all the answers, that you can't predetermine all these answers. In in some prior work that Kat and I had done, and it's in some of the work that's in the special issue that Kat was talking about. Um, I interviewed some of the graduates from the program. And one of the cool things that I noticed in interviewing them is they really take time to ask questions and listen to those answers of their clients. And so not assume, not making assumptions, not trying to generate a solution prematurely, but to really work with that person to identify a path that's right for them and aligns with what they want to do. And that was something, I mean, I realize I do that even like with the students that I advise in my grad research. Like, you know, I they come to me with a problem and I try to hurry up and put my helper pants on and just bam, solve that issue for them. Um, and again, solving that for them. And so I've really learned from working with our graduates, like, I really do need to stop and just take a moment and be present, as Kat mentioned, and really think about okay, is this something that I need to resolve for my grad student, or is this something that they just need to either talk to me about it or vent about it? And I think that same mentality can be um applied in these contexts, like when we just want to hurry up and make a decision and recognizing that you might not always be right. Maybe, you know, it is a trial and error thing. Maybe, maybe you have one of your clients try something and it's not quite what they wanted, and it's not quite what they expected, but that's okay. You know, that's okay you tried it. Um, and and so I think being in that growth space together can be really challenging, but try to keep your keep yourself in that in that learner space.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC 47:34

Definitely. Yeah, and I even that last thing you just said I've I've talked to CRCs who have worked with clients, and they might be ready for a career transition when they start their work together and they get ready and they get some training and they go and start this new career, and within a month or two, they're like, wow, I do not like doing this at all. And it's like sometimes you almost just have to throw yourself into something to figure out whether it's gonna work for you or not. And that could be something as big as a career change, that could be something as as um intricate as like deciding, you know, what sort of path am I gonna take in grad school or after grad school. You know, I think we are like at our core, all of us are human, and trying to predict the future and what's going to work for us is an impossible task. And I know our brains like to have expectations that we can kind of lean back on so not everything's so uncertain, but it is kind of a nice thing for all of us to keep in mind that, you know, every instance of a new, you know, chapter of our lives or a new person we meet is kind of unique and uh individual, and it's not going to always mirror past experiences. We can use those, of course, but it's going to be very important for all of us, you know, in anything that we do, especially things we're passionate about, to show up as kind of fresh as possible and as open-minded as possible and soak in as much of what we're experiencing in the present uh to inform, you know, the work that we're doing now and not let, you know, over over um uh too strong of a focus on the future of the past to kind of dictate what's happening right now. So that's that's kind of a universal lesson, I feel like.

Kat Oertle, CRC 49:04

Yeah. And to add that to our world and our community, right? To learn about employment and what's going on. I it's just to me, it's fascinating to think about um even the valley that we're in here at Cache Valley, where Logan, Utah, uh where home of Utah State is, you know, just all the different kinds of occupational things that are going on here. Some historic, like Petrick's Farms, right? It's been here part of the valley for a long time. Then there are all these tech things going on that I every time I look somewhere, there's some new building that I have no idea what that entails for work, right? So the intellectual curiosity is equally about the people we're serving directly that we might call a primary customer client, right? Um, the person seeking work or developing the skills for work, uh, and you know, starting to get um excited about the world of work and themselves in it. Um, but also the other part of that community um puzzle piece, as Cass mentioned earlier, you know, it's our community members and the way they think about people with disabilities and the opportunities for employees to fill those jobs. You know, um that exploration of work could be so exciting. And this place to do work-based learning could be so exciting. But we can also call it apprenticeship, right? We can call it internship, a practicum, the things business or engineering might recognize more. So yeah, that's also what happens in the training is uh those opportunities to think about how we're using different words to mean the same things, um, or different words completely to mean what we've the similar concepts, right? Uh of preparation for the world of work. Um that gets back to those pivotal points, uh those, you know, maybe not the pathway, but this is uh or a pipeline, right? Because it's not a straight thing, but a way that folks can get curious about their communities too. And especially when I think about that problem solving or solution mindedness, you know, we think about there's no jobs or rural settings or, you know, uh sub uh urban or small urban communities or any place that a person with a disability is looking for work um that has those challenges that are attached to is especially that stuff you were we were talking about earlier about predetermination. Um based on these assumptions people have about disability. It's a relationships that you know really uh change those attitudinal barriers. Absolutely. Yeah, and we've got it, we do a lot of that too, because we have the career development class, right? So working in with employers, engaging Cass right now is doing work um with myself and other colleagues uh on business and industry talking to them about disability. And again, another parallel space where we can build from this and bring people together in conversation. Um, and an important piece that is influential too, you know, when we think about the opportunities that people have to learn from each other and with each other.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC 52:22

How has participant feedback been for this so far? Are there any sort of success stories or people who have gone through this who really stand out as like a, oh, this is why we're doing this uh type of program or putting this sort of uh program on?

Kat Oertle, CRC 52:35

Yeah, sure. Um, well, I I mentioned a couple of times our advisory panel members. Um they are the ones that it definitely influenced us. Uh Cass mentioned a couple of uh uh them when she talks about the interviews that we did, uh, that Cass did, sorry. Um I was part of the research, I just removed myself from the interview part so that you know we're controlling some of the at least just explaining some of the biases and our position. Um it's important to us that we are uh transparent in position, why we shape things the way we do in our research. Um, uh one story that comes to mind uh and often does because I've had her come to class multiple times and speak. Um Janice Mirano, who's in Puerto Rico, is doing just some exceptional work with pre-employment transition services. Um had a chance to meet Judy Human through our summit, um, has carried on the disability history and the message of the leaders in the disability rights movement, and has embedded that within the pre-employment transition services. So the youth and students that she works with um really connect to the roots of the leadership and that self-advocacy piece. Um they do reflection and she's got them learning about business all the way from the ground up, entrepreneurial stuff, uh visiting all kinds of business sites and all the kind of work that can be done. So really cool and definitely somebody I would recommend anybody reaching out and talking to. She does have a Facebook group. She's totally open to sharing ideas. So it's somebody that I think of a lot. Um, but I would mention that our graduates are across the board. And you had said earlier, you know, we don't uh teach to a practice setting. It is a scope of practice, um, which you can find rehab counselors in lots of different places. Um so we have folks that are working in the VA, we have people that are in um re-ab counseling, so vocational re-ab counseling in the state systems across the country, both sides of the country. Um, in the middle too, uh, paraprofessionals have taken the certificate and are working in you know what we might call extended transition programs where you're working with 18 to 22 year olds or you're working in a classroom setting. We have a person who just graduated, uh, Christopher Cleveland, I'm thinking of, who's working as a mentor with youth who are out of school who have autism. Um I'm trying to think, oh, of course, uh developmental services. So Jen Randall is in Oklahoma and she's working within you know what we would call DD services or developmental services. Um it's not really again a setting. Um you want to think about scope of practice. Um and then if you're thinking about the avenues with the certification for rab counselors, um, you know, you find certified rab counselors in all kinds of settings. And I can use myself as an example. I've worked in mental health and substance abuse independency with the court systems and also in higher ed as part of the current tech ed Perkins space. Um I've worked as a counselor in several different kinds of settings, right? Uh in both public and private private practice. And now I've eventually found myself in the world of academics, right? So I think again, you know, uh you're limited by your own imagination where you end up finding yourself. I wanted to add too, four of the graduates have gone on to, and this isn't a requirement, but they are pursuing their doctoral degrees. One's finished already and three are in programs now. It's not that we told them to do it. I, of course, am always recruiting people. So if folks are interested in a doc degree, um, Kath and I are definitely interested in talking to you all. Um, but just know, you know, that represents 18% of the folks that have gone into the emphasis, right? Going on for a higher, even more. Um we do have graduates in our our rehab services and disability certificate in uh 40 states, including Guam and Puerto Rico, right? So the territories in DC. So it's not limited by a local connection to Logan because we're a distance ed program, right? So it's not limited in that way. But I those are the places I'd highlight. I, you know, I highlighted a couple, two graduates by name, but that does not mean the others aren't important either. But those are two that come to mind. And certainly the w the breadth and depth, right, of what setting that you might find yourself in.

Cass McCall 57:23

It it was really interesting when I did those interviews um that Kat and I had talked about, one of the key things that because I did interviews with each graduate of the program, I think it was up until that point, right? Kat, like the graduates that had all the graduates that had graduated from the program at the time of interviewing. Um, and one of the cool things that as someone who's not associated with the field, um, other than the work that we're doing, um, one thing I noticed was they were really excited about having this intellectual community and this community of practice where they could share and bounce ideas off of each other. And in talking about things that they really valued about the program, that was one of the things is was one that they could dive into the literature, that they had someone who could keep them up to date. So Kat really does a great job at bringing in contemporary research and and recent research that's emerging in the field and has has all the students and I guess I mean I'll say professionals at at this point um engage in that. And they really appreciated that, and then they appreciated the time and the space that they got to really bounce ideas off of each other. And if they had a challenge or something that they were experiencing at work, they could talk to each other about it. Um, and the other thing that that about the program that I think is really unique is that they're very attuned to the students in the program actually being working individuals, so all the classes are held in the evenings when working professionals could actually attend them and engage in that group work in a very like authentic way. And so even though it's also it's at a distance, it it really does have that classroom feel. And as someone who's attended the classes and engaged with the students in the classes, like it's it's really no different than if you're you know, if we were in a classroom setting and just talking amongst each other. So um, those are some kind of it still has that in-person feel, even though it's a distance.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC 59:43

Yeah. I mean, getting to talk to people who are interested in pursuing the same things you're pursuing is such like an ad uh an addictive practice, right? Everyone kind of gets excited and then you talk to one another, and then it's similar to doing this podcast, you know. Like I I get off these conversations with professionals like like yourselves, and it just makes me want to do my job even better or try to come up with new ways to get the word out about these incredible programs. And I think like that's really like that power and that awe that we feel about watching others around us do great things. And I feel like a community of practice set up for something like this seems like a great opportunity to kind of cultivate that excitement and that inspiration for the people participating.

Kat Oertle, CRC 1:00:23

Yeah. Well, and you can tell probably from just us talking with you, uh, Taylor, we're looking we're getting more excited too about our own work. I know look at us.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC 1:00:36

Well, I mean, listeners didn't even get the 10 to 12 minute uh pre-recording conversation of us getting into the weeds of stuff and getting excited about stuff, right? So, I mean, yeah, no, there's no shortage of excitement and passion for this work. And I think specifically for all of the CRCs who come on the show and share their work or people that I get to talk to. Um, like passion and excitement just goes such a long way. And it it's very telling that, especially with people who work with people with disabilities, like you don't find yourself in this space if you're not very passionate about the things you do. And it's great that that passion isn't limited to just, you know, rehabilitation counseling necessarily as a profession. We can find other folks to work with and to partner with and um, you know, cultivate that excitement in other spaces and you know, find that it really is everywhere. I think disability can touch all of us in so many unique ways. And it's it's incredible that people pursue that CRC credential and want to do this for a living. There are a lot of people who come from different backgrounds and do different work who are still just as passionate about seeing people with disabilities um have equity and inclusion in all parts of society. So it's it's it's wonderful to see those kind of meld together in something like this. To close, I kind of always like to come up with, I don't know, some broader kind of like what's the why behind what we're talking about today? And I think a great way to kind of wrap up this conversation with both of you. But what is the one thing that you hope this program provides people who participate in it? And you know, in turn, they're gonna go work with students or transition age folks or and their families and support systems. And what sort of impact do you hope this program has on those professionals?

Kat Oertle, CRC 1:02:14

Um Well, my hope is that uh they that anybody that would participate would have um access to the most cutting-edge and also effective practices that are based in our highest level of research evidence. That doesn't mean just new stuff, right? It's reminding ourselves of the basis of the work that we do. Um so it's the depth and breadth that comes with the practice of rehab counseling and it's a connection with employment and access to employment for people with disabilities. And then more than that, feeling that overall connection with a community of professionals and consumers of those uh professional services that make up the ecosystem we're a part of, that you want to uh and that you feel as though you're impactful as part of that. Um that main thing too, that counselors are not alone, um, educators are not alone, and that we have a um a way to connect with each other that can be quite powerful if if we have an opportunity to do that. And so that's what I hope folks would leave with is that they feel they're supported to learn um and also are connected in ways that um they know they belong and are included. Um and that they are impactful and matter.

Cass McCall 1:03:49

And not just totally echo everything that Kat just said. I think the big thing is is to stay open and to ask questions. Um one of the things that I think I think I think one of the hard parts to get over in these spaces is being I don't want to say afraid. Afraid might be a little too strong of a word, but um hesitant towards the uncertain. And and I and I mean uncertainty in in all of its forms. Like for example, if you're reaching out to someone from a different discipline, um and and to to let yourself be okay with the uncertainty and not let it control what your decisions are. Um so one of the pieces of feedback that we do get at times, and and particularly with me being an engineer, is there's a little bit of an intimidation factor that can come along with that when you're in these spaces that you're not used to being in, or you're interacting with people that you're not used to interacting with. And that goes in both directions. Like, you know, as a rehabilitation counselor and and working with transition-aged students and youth, you know, being being nervous or hesitant to reach out to an engineer or to reach out to an engineering faculty member. And on the engineering side, I see the same thing, like us being nervous to reach out to rehabilitation counselors or or especially engineering educators who are interested in broadening participation. Like, there is that uncertainty and that intimidation factor there. But I think really to have people separate the two and be like, okay, I might be uncertain and I might not know what this other person is going to say or how they're going to respond, but at least to attempt those connections and just Just let them be what they are, you know, um and not taking a single reaction to something as a blanket reaction. Um, one of the things that I think is a misconception, particularly about engineering, is that all engineering professionals have to do a lot of math and they have to do a lot of science, and they and and and Kat and I joke around when we do our workshops a lot of times. I mean, as an intern in civil engineering, I kid you not, one of my jobs was to shake dirt through screens, um, to do a civ analysis for a foundation for a road. And so letting yourself, again, going back to that space of vulnerability and uncertainty, but letting yourself be open to that and learn, um, and and really just just have conviction in those in those times, because it is scary, but we have more in common than than what's different.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC 1:07:02

Thanks to Kat and Cass for their time and insight. You know, culturally, there's a growing expectation that people with disabilities should have the same opportunities to pursue careers, higher education, and independent lives. Well, transition-focused programs play a vital role in advancing this expectation by preparing practitioners to deliver person-centered, culturally responsive, and outcome-driven services. We are grateful to the work they're both doing and to the support from Utah State University, one of our centers of excellence here at CRCC. If you're looking for links to our website and social channels to follow us, you can do so in the show notes. Maybe you have a question or idea for a future episode. Maybe that involves you coming on the show and telling us about an exciting project that you're working on. Whatever it is, we'd love to hear your ideas. Uh, email us at contact us at crccertification.com. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, and TikTok, our newest channel, by searching CRC Cert. I'm Taylor Bauer, Director of Communications and Marketing with CRCC. Until next time, take care of a CHA.