The Lab Safety Gurus
Discover the secrets to enhancing laboratory safety without the hassle of navigating complex regulations and modifying established practices.
Tune in to the enlightening discussions led by the knowledgeable Dan the Lab Safety Man and infectious disease behaviorist Sean Kaufman. Together, they explore a wide range of lab safety subjects on a weekly basis.
Stay up-to-date with the latest trends and engaging debates surrounding lab safety by tuning in to every episode.
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The Lab Safety Gurus
How Budget Cuts And Disagreement Threaten Lab Safety
Safety doesn’t take a holiday when budgets tighten or tempers flare. We open up about a tough season, the quiet grief many are carrying, and why small fractures in everyday connection can ripple into big risks at the bench. From cashierless cafeterias to self-checkout lanes, those missing micro-moments of human contact show up in the lab as thinner patience, weaker trust, and slower recovery when mistakes happen. That’s exactly where we focus: how to restore the muscle of respectful disagreement so safety and science can stand together.
We get practical about conflict in tight lab spaces. Think of “relationship first” as a core control, not a soft skill. You’ll hear ways to build credibility before you need it—quick check-ins, naming pressures without judgment, and framing safety asks around shared outcomes like fewer reworks and steadier turnaround times. We also share simple phrases that de-escalate heat on the spot: “help me understand,” “what risk are we accepting,” and “what makes this safe enough to try.” These tools turn disagreement from a productivity drain into a learning loop.
With the government shutdown squeezing support systems, we dig into resilience: dusting off emergency plans, verifying critical inventories, mapping backup suppliers, and protecting high-value controls like engineering barriers and biosafety equipment. We challenge the false trade-off that treats safety as optional when money is tight. Science is essential—and so is the safety that keeps it running. By separating hot-button talk from active procedures and parking disputes that distract from tasks, teams preserve attention where it matters most.
If you care about lab safety culture, conflict that doesn’t cost focus, and keeping operations steady under pressure, this conversation is for you. Subscribe, share with a colleague who needs fresh language for tough moments, and leave a review with one practice your team uses to disagree without risking the work.
Welcome to the Lab Safety Gurus Podcast. I'm Dan Scungio.
SPEAKER_01:And I'm Sean Kaufman, and together we're providing safety insights for those working in laboratory settings. Doing safety together. Well, welcome back. And Dan, how are you doing?
SPEAKER_00:Sean Kaufman, it is great to be with you again. Doing great. It's been a fantastic summer. A lot of good stuff happening. We had a little family vacation. Uh did a couple conferences that were really great and just been having a great old time. How about you?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I know you've been staying busy. Happy Biosafety Month, by the way. Today, this month, October, is Biosafety Month, and I know there's a lot of people, a lot of people going to APSA International's conference. Dan, are you gonna make that conference this year? I'm not gonna be able to make it this year. Hopefully next year. I'm not either, but you know, you should try. And apparently, they're offering remote courses too. So there are people that can attend. If you can't get there, I don't even know where it is this year, to be honest with you, Dan. I gotta figure that one out because I I couldn't go. I so I didn't even look. But um it's gonna, I'm I mean, they've they've got one heck of a good lineup and certainly something to consider if you want to attend remotely, that's for sure. And of course, if you have certifications and and safety, it's always a a good thing to be able to attend AFSA so you can get that professional development. But crazy month, a lot of things going on. You know, we haven't had a session, Dan, um, since uh September here. October uh August, late August, August was our last one. Uh, we're now halfway through October. And I have to be honest with this with the uh audience. Last time Dan and I got together, we were uh pretty depressed. Um, it was following the assassination of Charlie Kirk. And uh so I have to be honest with you, that we spent a lot of time kind of talking about the world and the chaos, and and we were trying to do a podcast on what do you do when you don't get along or you disagree with people? And we decided rather than doing a podcast, that Dan and I would just have kind of a healing conversation. Uh, you know, as many of you know, both Dan and I are very, very faithful, very uh uh loving uh Christian men, and uh and the world that we live in uh sometimes takes a turn that just hurts our hearts. So, you know, Dan, I don't know if you want to say anything, but we can certainly in this podcast mention uh strategies for how do we uh get along with people we disagree with. Um certainly not through violence, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_00:No, it's uh but it's a really important topic, Sean, because you know, I value the time that we get to spend together and talk to each other. Um, but I also, you know, I'm an introvert by nature and I like my one-on-one time with people best. Um, but I also am looking out, you know, in this past month uh in the public, uh, just go into the grocery store, just go in here and go in there. And I I facetiously say a lot, the reason you know these things are happening in the world is because of self-checkout. And what I mean by you would think as an introvert, I would love self-checkout in the store.
SPEAKER_01:You're talking about you know, hold on one second. I gotta get this straight because uh you were talking, I'm triggered. I have to warn you, I'm triggered. Let me get I I I'm triggered because you're really talking about the self-checkout at grocery stores, right?
SPEAKER_00:I am.
SPEAKER_01:You're talking about the fact that groceries prices have gone up and and the cost that, you know, obviously the overhead on groceries is people have to stock it, they have to travel. But one of the overhead pieces used to be the fact that somebody would do the work for you. They would bag it, they would scan it, and they would show a smile and offer customer service. And today we're doing all of that, and I'm not getting paid to do that. But I'm sorry, Dan, I didn't mean to stop you. No, it just triggered me. It just triggered me. You are so right.
SPEAKER_00:Not only aren't you getting paid, you're not getting a discount on your groceries when you do it yourself. So, so that piece I was angry at for a little bit because my brother is very angry about that. He does not like that at all. And those are his reasons. But now, so something recently happened in the cafeterias in the hospitals where I work, and that is there are no more cashiers. So you go and you somebody, you know, fills food in your bowl and puts a lid on it and puts a sticker on it, and they don't talk to you, you don't talk to them. They hand you the bowl with a sticker and you go to the cash register and you check yourself out and you pay for yourself. There's no human interaction. And this, even though I'm an introvert and I should like self-checkout, this is what bothers me the most. There's no human connection anymore to any other human being, even though it might be a cashier, you smile at them, you say thank you. They might say thank you. I don't care what they say, but there's human connection there. And now we're so much in our bubbles, and it's getting worse and worse as the generations go on. I know I sound like an old person when I say that, but um, there's no human connection anymore. And that's why life has become cheap. So now let's go back to the point you're talking about. We disagree on something, but we can't talk about it because we're not used to talking and conversing with each other. We barely know how to make relationships with each other, let alone have a deep conversation about our differences and opinions.
SPEAKER_01:And that you know, that's yeah, it's a challenge, Dan, because you know, laboratory environments, the the folks that are listening to this, you know, they're tight spaces. Um, you you have to work around people in very close spaces. And we're not even sometimes talking about just uh uh personal differences, because we know that in the in the world today, there's a lot of people that have personal opinions and a lot of people disagree with each other. But we're also talking about what do we do when we professionally disagree with one another as well? Um and and and those skills and those strategies. You know, how do we how do we express our disagreement respectfully with each other? How do we how do we see a person we disagree with as really truly a not an enemy, uh, and uh certainly you know not a uh a competitor. I mean, you just you're looking at somebody as just simply they have a different opinion than you do.
SPEAKER_00:And that that difference of opinion can be as simple as I think you should wear a lab coat, Sean, when you're working in the lab, and you don't think you should because it's hot. Uh and so this has been for me, in my role in lab safety for years, my approach has always been, okay, let's see, I'm a lab safety officer, I've got a thousand employees I have to oversee for safety, and I might have to talk to some that I don't regularly see about these things. So, how do I do that and have a have a good interaction with them? And that that our difference of opinion on this isn't going to be the isn't going to be the big problem. And so the the answer that I always come to is okay, relationship first. I've got to work on that relationship first, put money in that relationship bank, and then I will have much better success in coaching that person about a lab code or whatever it is. Um, and it does, it takes longer. You don't get immediate results from that, but you start to build relationships with human beings and you start to care for them. They understand that you care for them, and that goes miles toward what you're trying to do in the long run. Improve the safety culture, help them understand why, but also help them understand that you care about them and that they deserve to be safe and they understand that what they're doing wasn't safe. Uh, it's a lot, it's a lot of pieces to put together, it's a lot to teach somebody. I'm I'm, you know, uh working with with someone in lab safety, been mentoring him for a few years, and that doesn't come natural to everybody, the relationship first piece. Um, and they're just, I want to fix this, I want to get this done, I want them to do this, I want them to do that. That's great, but why should they do it because you tell them to? You have no relationship there, you have nothing to build that upon to make that happen. So I think when we have disagreements in lab about things, and it's not always about safety, right? It could be, oh, I'm tired of following you on the bench, you never clean up, everything's a mess, there's no supplies, it could be whatever. Um, and you how do you talk to somebody about that and make it be an effective conversation? You better build that relationship first, or it's not really gonna work.
SPEAKER_01:100%. You know, Dan, we we we talked a little bit about uh uh learning how to disagree better in today's world, and and obviously that has an impact uh on our labs. And I think all of us do need to really, really truly understand that we can become more accepting of people who are different than we are. We may disagree with them. We there are lots of people, Dan, that you know and I know that we have fundamental value disagreements on, but it doesn't mean I hate them, it doesn't mean they're invaluable, and it doesn't mean that that I can't respect them. Um and and and and and and what that means, I don't have to respect what they're doing um if if it's a behavioral aspect, but from a from a trying my best to uh uh uh to uh uh be me and and allow people to be be them, and we can disagree openly and respectfully, uh, but I don't have to do what they're doing or believe what they're believing uh to still have a relationship uh uh that is respectful and professional with that other person. But Dan, uh I want to get something else right now because it is October, it is safety month. And we have a shutdown, it is killing me, Dan. It's killing me, it's just killing it's like I have to diversify my client list because when you work for the federal government only and you have a shutdown, you're not working anymore, you're on vacation. And uh, and so there's a shout out to all those who are affected by this. Uh, praying for you and praying for your families, uh, pray for contractors too. We don't get paid. Um, it it stinks. But Dan, when when costs get cut, like when we we don't have money, one of the very first things people like to cut is safety. Um, and so here's a good question for you, Dan. Do you think that this shutdown is actually increasing potential risks in laboratories right now, as we speak? That I mean, does this shutdown affect safety directly in laboratory environments?
SPEAKER_00:The the answer is definitely yes, uh, but it also depends on the arena you're working in. If you're working in a government lab or a government-funded lab, or your uh your go-to for regulations, your resources are OSHA, the CDC, NIOSH, you're you're short on resources. Uh they're done right now. And we don't know how long that's gonna last. Um, I would just like to put out there, you know, to everybody who's listening, you know, don't hesitate to reach out to Sean or reach out to me if there are questions or problems you have or or resources maybe we can direct you to. Uh, yes, the answer is a is a resounding yes. There is a there's a problem uh with a lack of things that we might need to reach. Right now, I don't think it's a PPE issue. It's not a supply issue, but could there be supply issues coming because of this? Yeah, so it could it could be even worse than that. Uh we went through during the pandemic uh all the different ways that you need to stock supplies, reuse supplies, and reusing PPE and all of that mess that came along with that. You know, I don't think it'll get that bad again. Hopefully there'll be resolution before any of that happens, but it's time to dust off your emergency management plan and look at look at those things and what your plans are for those kinds of problems that can arise in your life.
SPEAKER_01:From a contingency standpoint, absolutely. And you know, the government likes to look at things like well, is it essential or non-essential? So let me, I'm gonna throw a softball question to you, Dan. There's no doubt that science is essential. No doubt. Diagnostics, I would even argue research aspects are you know, clinical diagnostic research as even animal health, in my opinion. You're always mind okay. Well, if if that is essential, Dan, isn't safety unessential? I mean, we could call safety in later, right? Or is safety as essential as science is? I I don't know how to separate them.
unknown:I know.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know how to separate them, but I know there are people out there who could uh because they would answer, sure, safety can come later. I've got other considerations, I've got to get the work out now. And I just think that that's a a disconnect. You're not realizing the consequences. Uh, you know, past uh performance does not necessarily indicate what's going to happen in the future when it comes to safety, because I could be a bad uh person in lab safety for 30 years and not have a consequence that I know of. Uh, and then tomorrow something fatal happens because of that thing I've been doing for so long. So I know there are people who could say yes, but I'm not one of them. You can't have one without the other. Science is essential, laboratories are essential, but you can't have them without safety. If you take all the safety um out of the laboratory, you know, it isn't just engineering controls, it isn't just uh PPE, there's also the human behavior aspects of it. Um it's it's all gonna fall apart quickly if that's what happens. Uh and I'm hoping that uh everybody in these conditions today realize that also.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I mean, there there's no doubt. I think, you know, I think safety is 100% essential. I think it's part of uh part of the overall package. But you know, let's uh let's uh combine the two, Dan. We're gonna get excited. We've got about a minute left. I'm gonna combine the two. Dan, Dan, do you agree? Do you think that if you're working with someone you politically disagree with, or even socially disagree with, or maybe you're in an argument or a fight, do you think that the disagreement you're experiencing has an impact on safety?
SPEAKER_00:Uh I think it could. I work with people all the time that I disagree with politically, religiously, you name it. I mean, that's just the human race. Um and your approach is really important with that. Uh, can it affect safety and how you work? Yeah, but you should so I you shouldn't bring that into the workplace, Sean. I know, Dan, but people do. As adults, we should be able to have conversations where we talk about our differences in politics, religion, whatever it is, but there are many who can't. And it's better, safer in a lot of instances, if you can't do that, to just not bring it into the workplace. But yes, you're there are people who do uh all the time. And so you if I see that, I I remain silent. I'm not gonna add to that at work. It's not safe.
SPEAKER_01:Do we have disagreements in the laboratory while we're doing our work?
SPEAKER_00:Uh, we shouldn't have anything that's going to distract us from the work going on. If it becomes a distraction, get rid of it.
SPEAKER_01:That's it. There it is. If you if you're distracted, yeah, it could be a challenge of safety. Well, that's it. That's what we got for this month, ladies and gentlemen. And uh, we are praying for those out there who may be affected by this shutdown. Uh, personally, Dan, I think a solution could be very simple. If we find all of the politicians who are responsible for the shutdown a thousand dollars a day for not doing their job, then I bet you the shutdown would be taken care of. I really do. It would be taken care of very, very easy. It's not our job to approve the budget, it's their job too. And uh if we found if we find them a thousand bucks a day to get that job done, I bet you that those disagreements would probably go away. Yeah, they would. So I agree. Anyway, but they take that, by the way, as a tip. If you want to end disagreements in the laboratory, just find people for every day they spend in disagreement, and then disagreements will go away. All right, ladies and gentlemen, Dan, you've got the last word. Have a great one. Dan, you've got the last word.
SPEAKER_00:Live in peace and harmony, everybody. That's what it's all about. Stay safe.
SPEAKER_01:We are the lab safety gurus, Dan Scungio and Sean Kaufman.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for letting us do lab safety together.