Interesting. I think when people think of Japan, they think of either that or the robots and the manga. And so it's so extreme, but most of the people are a mix of all of those things. So they may have this serenity and you know in parts of their lives while they're on their phone and they're in traffic and they're listening to their iPhones and they're texting at the same time and they're talking to Siri and they're doing this. And so it's it's all of it. When you come to Japan, some people might be disappointed because it's not as serene as they thought.
SPEAKER_08And we talk to them about books, coffee, podcasting, creating things, and language. This is a very special book show that we have for you today. I'm pretty much done with my part because Tatiana from a previous book episode is going to take over. Tatiana, how are you?
SPEAKER_05Hi Steph, I'm good. And hi to home, basically.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, because you're you're in Goa, India, and I'm in Berlin, Germany.
SPEAKER_05Exactly. And Berlin is my hometown.
SPEAKER_08So what do you have in store for us today?
SPEAKER_05I spoke to Yuki from the book Nerd Tokyo, who is uh Japanese, but actually she's more American. Very interesting story. And we spoke about specifically one Japanese book, which is Kitchen by Banana Yoshimoto.
SPEAKER_08So Tajania did this interview, and so she's gonna take it over from here. So let's listen to their conversation.
SPEAKER_05Hi, Yuki. Hi, Tajana. How are you?
SPEAKER_10I'm great. Thank you so much for asking me to join you. This is very exciting for me.
SPEAKER_05I was so thrilled because I read a couple of Japanese books last year, but one so stood out, which is a book that we're gonna discuss today. And I was so thrilled that you agreed not just to come on the podcast, but actually to that specific book as well, which is Kitchen by Banana Yoshimoto. Absolutely. I'm always happy to discuss this book.
SPEAKER_10Where can people find you? I'm at Booknerd Tokyo on Instagram, and I also have a blog, booknerdokyo.com, where I write about things that won't fit in my Instagram captions, which are pretty long already. Those are the two places.
SPEAKER_05But also you write your captions in Japanese and English, so obviously you I do. It's it's only half the space technically that you then have.
SPEAKER_10Oh, yeah, that is true. That is always why I'm running out of space. Yeah, I I try to make a point to do that, even if the books aren't translated in the other language, whichever sometimes I write about English books that aren't translated in Japanese, but I tried to make a point about writing in both languages for all captions because that's kind of my point is you don't want to pick and choose what information you're you're sending to a certain group of people, and then you're sending different information to a different group of people. So I tried to keep that as as equal as possible. And also it's just the way that I think. I think in both languages and right in both languages. I wanted to be, I wanted to be as true to who I am and how I communicate daily.
SPEAKER_05Now, while you were born in Japan and are currently living in Japan, your family actually brought you over to the US, Los Angeles, when you were four, where you've lived for a big chunk of your life and especially very formative years as well. Tell us a little bit about your life between Japan and US. Sure.
SPEAKER_10So my parents took our family to LA when I was four. My brother was one, and they've since settled there. So my family's still there. I consider LA to be my home, no matter where I live, how far I'm away. When people ask me where I'm from, I always say LA. I've been in Tokyo for about six years now, and that's due to the man that I married is from Tokyo. And I was born here, but because I didn't know anything about the city as our relationship progressed and the the idea of getting together and okay, where would we live when that came up? I was living in New York at the time, but I happily suggested that we live in Tokyo. I just really wanted to get to know this city. My parents are from Tokyo. My grandparents lived in Tokyo, so we had visited as children, but never as an adult. So I really wanted to live here and kind of get to know my roots and understand where my parents came from and learn the culture.
SPEAKER_05The book is called Kitchen by Banana Yoshimoto. Is is that the same title in Japanese as well?
SPEAKER_10It is, it's kitchen. And there's the Japanese word for kitchen, which is daidokoro, but it's interesting that she went with kitchen, the English word for it, which which is what everyone calls kitchens now. Everyone in Japan calls kitchens kitchen. They don't call them Daidokoro. So it's it's a part of the modern lexicon.
SPEAKER_05Okay. Now, this particular book was actually released in 1988, which seems ages ago now, but the fact is actually that when you read it, it sounds both in terms of language and content, it's yeah, such a current book, actually. Um do you want to give a quick summary of the book?
SPEAKER_10Sure. Kitchen is about a young woman named Mika Gen, who lost her parents when she was younger and she was raised by her grandmother. And the story begins when her grandmother passes away and she finds herself completely alone and lost, and that's when a friend from college named Yuichi invites her over for tea just to, you know, chat. And then through a series of events, she ends up staying with them for a while. She ends up moving out of her old apartment that she lived in with her grandmother and lived moving in with Yuichi and his mother Eriko. And the book is called Kitchen because the kitchen is the one place in all of the world. And she's not completely overtaken by sadness, and she's able to forget her sorrows. And she knows that Yuichi and Eriko, his mother, are good people because she loves their kitchen. Their kitchen is just perfect, according to Mikage. And with their help and through their communication and the time spent together, she starts to find her way back to life. It's about the human connection and the relationship with a family that is not your own, but becomes possibly um your own family.
SPEAKER_05For Mikage, I think it's kitchen and food and cooking that's really her refuge from all the bad things that are happening to her in terms of losing all the family she has. But you don't want to mention Eriko.
SPEAKER_10No, I think that Eriko is a key player. I think what happens to Eriko is something that we maybe don't talk about. Okay. But Eriko is such a profound presence in Mikage's life because Yuichi introduces her as his mother.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_10Um but upon getting to know her, just in the first couple of days of being together, she realizes that um Eriko was was not always his mother, but was his father before. Correct. And was married to um his mother. But his mother, Yuichi's mother, passed away, and I think that that really broke Eriko's heart, and she decided that she would live as a woman and started dressing that way and completely changing her life. And and Yuichi believes now of her as a mother and a woman. And so that I think was very much ahead of its time. Um, that this this presence was just such a completely normal part of their lives.
SPEAKER_05Yes, and quite frankly, to me, when I first read this, it is mentioned like in a in a side note almost. And it's it's really not the main topic of the book at all, but it was such a revelation. I had to read that sentence, I think, two, three times. Like, am I reading this right? Um considering that it was released in 1988, and still today it's in many, many countries in the world that is by no means something normal. Or um, I think if I would go around and say, by the way, my mom used to be my dad, that is a very, very uh mind-blowing thing, actually. How is that handled in Japan? The topic of either gay but also transgenders.
SPEAKER_10It's really fascinating. I'm not sure that that one point was the reason why this book was such a phenomenon when it first came out. It is kind of just a side note. Yeah. By the way, it's still a very special um relationship, but it's definitely not the focal point of the novel. And I think what Banana Yoshimoto, her point was when I rem I read an interview where people asked her why she created a character like Eriko, and she just said, Oh, there were just a lot of people around me who were like that. And she grew up in a very, she did, she her father is a very famous writer and philosopher, or was. And so she grew she did grow up with artists and creatives and brilliant minds around her. I think she grew up in a non-typical Japanese family household. And I think so. That's why her reply was just simply, oh, I just had friends like that, so I didn't see why I shouldn't include them in the novel. For her, it was normal. For her, it was absolutely normal. She wasn't trying to prove a point or she wasn't trying to make some kind of statement in 1988. Um and I think the relevance of it now is is astounding, actually. But what was really interesting was in her interview, she said that the book really took off in ways that she didn't expect, and it was read by people that she hadn't necessarily written it for, and who she'd written it for were the people who were born maybe extra sensitive with an extra sensitivity where they felt things more and they were they were hurt more deeply, and just living in society every single day was just such a fight, and it was so lonely, and it was heartbreaking. And so she wrote the novel for those people, saying that yeah, even in those moments, there are ways to find joy, and there are ways to get a good laugh out of something that happened that day, or there are ways to, you know, really just enjoy the heck out of life. And and those were the those were the people that she wrote the novel for. So she was really stunned when it was read by everyone, you know, including people who were not necessarily feeling those things, and that's why it was criticized in many ways. And yeah, she said she was only 24 when the when the novel came out. So for a while she said she just wanted to disappear after that, and the novel was so huge, and she got so much for it, good and bad, that she just couldn't bear for a while, she said.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and I can imagine because Kitchen was her first novel, and uh as you said, it got so much attention that there was actually a term phrased, which is banana mania, which is really sort of what broke out after her book became such a sensation, quite unexpected. Now, the reason why I brought it up is I loved the book, and I know that you quite like Banana Yoshimoto's work in general as well. What makes it about Kitchen that you particularly like?
SPEAKER_10I think it's such a slim novel, and you don't expect to find a world in there that you do. I didn't read it until I was probably in my 20s because I knew that people were talking about it in such a profound, this changed my life kind of way that I didn't think that my Japanese comprehension would be able to pick up on those nuances, even though I could read Japanese. I didn't think that I could understand the depth of feeling of the Japanese people. And and so it wasn't until much later, upon many rereads, that I would finally grasped what it was all about. But I think a lot of her novels are about death and about loss, but it's not about the death and the loss as it is about the recovery from it, yeah, and the trying to regain yourself and your sense of self and trying to get your life back. And I think, you know, anyone who's experienced any kind of devastation, any kind of time in their life that they know that that's the time that they were the saddest, and that's the time that broke them, but that was also the time that made them strong, made them who they are. I think her works speak to those people, especially I think at Kitchen speaks to those people because Mikage is just an ordinary girl. She's not a super anything, she's just a regular girl with a close relationship with her grandma, and she doesn't really have a lot of friends, and you know, she didn't really have any direction in her life, but she lost her grandma and lost everything. And so I think for her to start to find direction, start to find a career path in food and cooking, and that came only because of her cooking for Yuichi and his mother, people she cared about, and she learned about cooking, what cooking did and what food did to save them, the three of them, and all the times that they shared meals um and chatted and laughed, and that was part of her healing process. So I think the fact that she was just this college student with no real direction, but for her to have experienced such such great loss and then rising from that, yeah, there's something about that that that I think is is hope-giving and hopeful to the reader. And I think that's what I I was uh moved by.
SPEAKER_05And I absolutely agree, because to everybody who thinks that this is a dark and very sad and crying tissue kind of book, it really isn't, because while while there's so many very tragic things happening in terms of her losing literally the last family she has, and there's a few more things, but it keeps coming back as being a very hope-giving book. And as you're saying, probably at a certain age we all have lost somebody, or if you're going through that right now, I think this book is fantastic because it really gives you hope that they're albite there being sad and and terrible things happening, it can be still a wonderful life ahead. Right. As such, it's a very universal concept, and I don't find it a very Japanese book. Would you agree? Right.
SPEAKER_10I agree. I think the thing that made Banana Yoshimoto so fascinating to Japanese readers is that her stories are not very Japanese at all. Just in terms of references, she makes references to Linus and his blanket and the TV show Bewitched and Helen Keller and you know The Brothers Grimm and as just everyday conversation pieces. And her novels, they could be set anywhere. She doesn't talk about very Japanese things. She talks about a college, a university that they attend, but but that could be anywhere. And she talks about, you know, inns that they go to for work, um, restaurants, things like that. But there's nothing very, there's no like, oh, an overlooking Mount Fuji, and you know, there's no, there's no depictions of very Japanese icon type things. And also the the reason why the novels struck a chord with Japanese readers is because it's not very Japanese, but they still felt it so deeply, which gave Japanese readers the idea that, hmm, maybe you know, this out-of-place novel, this kind of fish out of water novel, strikes a chord with me. Maybe it's okay that I don't fit into society, fit into every aspect of society. Maybe it's okay that I mourn in different ways, or I love in different ways, or I have different parents, or I don't have friends, I'm not social, I don't know what I want to do, and that was okay. And to have it go on to be so universally loved. I don't know that it's something the author set out to do because she writes in Japanese. It's not that she writes in English and she writes for global audiences specifically, but I think just generally the things that she is drawn to and the things that she writes about are universal topics. There are a lot of them about spirituality, they're about growing up, they're about gender roles, they're about family, there a lot of them are about loss, about death.
SPEAKER_05And so I think and how how to overcome loss, I think, over and over again as well.
SPEAKER_07Exactly.
SPEAKER_05Would you say Kitchen is already a classic, even though it's only came out about now 30 years ago? Or does it belong now to that new wave of books? Because when you said that it's a lot about Japanese people discovering that I can be different and still belong to society and find people who love me, etc., this sounds very much like convenience store women, which is about a woman who feels that she's so different from everybody else that she goes and works in a convenience store to basically to find a very simple set of rules where she can fit in.
SPEAKER_10I think Kitchen is definitely a classic already. Um, a lot of the like Sayaka Murata and a lot of a lot of the modern authors, they look to Banana Yoshimoto as kind of a teacher and a guide and someone who's paved the way. And these are the books that they read growing up. So yeah, Kitchen and Yoshimoto is in a kind of a genre all her own. A lot of the modern writers grew up reading her. And I think now they're expressing their own take on society through Convenience Store Woman, which you know, in 1988 the convenience store wasn't even a thing. So this is definitely the modern version of the topics that I think Yoshimoto touched on the city.
SPEAKER_03My name is Dylan Steve. And I've been here. Would you join me? A lamp lit in the doorway. Yeah, on the round table. Oh and have a sea. I've heard a wonderful story for you.
SPEAKER_04I'd like to take a look at inspiration as a whole and what moves us as humans towards physical action. My literary analysis and inspirational podcast is about just that. It's full of new and upcoming artists, writers, young influencers, and longstanding figures that motivate you. I move through difficult texts and interpret them in a way that anyone can understand, as well as adding my personal flavor of voiced characters and musical themes to the mix. This is a show where you can educate yourself, learn about yourself, feel inspired to follow your own passion, share your writings, poetry, relax, and enjoy some stories. The round table has enough room for all those who are willing. You can find me on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Castbox, and anywhere else you can find podcasts. Also follow me on Instagram, and I welcome you to join me on the Night Reader Podcast.
SPEAKER_00I wish I could tell you everything is okay. I wish I could comfort you and tell you there is nothing to fear. But I can't. And if you are really being honest, that's not what you want. You want to be scared. You like being scared. So, join me. You're elusive host, and I will tell you why you're haunted by so many monsters. Scary Stories is a bi-weekly podcast about the psychology of fear and the stories we use to explain it. So, take a seat and let me tell you about this thing that happened to a friend of a friend, of a friend. Find it everywhere you listen to podcasts.
SPEAKER_05Now, obviously, kitchen is the title, and kitchen and food for Mikage is such an important point. As you mentioned, she discovered it throughout the book, but I think subconsciously she knew right from the beginning that uh kitchen is her safe haven in a way when her grandmother passes away and she spends the days and nights in her apartment where she lived with her grandmother, she finds that the only place where she can actually find rest and sleep is in the kitchen next to the fridge. So I think she knew that subconsciously, but throughout the book she discovers that kitchens and cooking is something that really can give her peace and help her survive in a way. How important are kitchens in Japan homes or food for Japanese people? Is that a big deal? Oh, they love food.
SPEAKER_10Japanese people love food so much. You turn on the TV at any hour of the day, and you will find a television show about food, about trying restaurants, about traveling for food, about making food, cooking shows, food, food, food. So much food and the quality of food, the the local food, foods depending on regions. There are all these specialties depending on which prefecture you're in, which part of Japan you're in. And so food is definitely a part of their lives. It's you can't talk about Japanese culture without talking about the food. Um, so naturally, kitchens are an important part of producing those foods. And because slow living and living you know outside of the city, it's you can't really experience it in Tokyo. But once you leave Tokyo and you're outside of the city, you you have an appreciation for a slower. Kind of life and people like to keep their kitchens clean and minimal and with the best tools, not the newest gadgets, not the latest gadgets, but knowing how to use the iron frying pan that's been used for decades and decades, given to you from your grandmother and your mother, things like that. So I think yeah, kitchens are places where people connect. And yeah, I love our kitchen. I do. I I love the kitchen and I I understand uh Mikage wanting to just lay out her sleeping bag and sleep by the fridge because there's something, there's the hum of the refrigerator, and it's working and it's working for you even when you're not and you don't feel like working, you don't feel like getting up. It's still humming along and keeping your food cold. And every time I turn on the stovetop to boil water, I'm just like, wow, that's just amazing. You you are amazing because coffee is my thing, obviously. From my Instagram accounts, all I do is drink coffee. But yeah, my my making coffee every morning is sustains me.
SPEAKER_05Obviously, Japanese food and American food very different, but the the importance that is given is that similar or do you find it very different?
SPEAKER_10I find it very different. I don't think I had a palate until I when I first came to Japan. I I mean I could understand obviously this is tasty, but it was, you know, I grew up on hamburgers and and fries and Doritos and pizza and but my mom did a really we lived in LA, which when I was growing up, there wasn't as many Japanese food or Asian food grocery stores around. So I think my mom really did a great job of using what she could find in the local grocery store and turning it into a Japanese, like the tonkatsu that was in the book. Things like that. She she made those for us and she made the miso soups and she tried to really give us an idea of what Japanese food was like. So we grew up, my brothers and I grew up loving Japanese food. But when I came to Japan and I would go to Kyoto and I would go to these inns where they like in the in the novel where every single dish is tofu, and there are just 20 different dishes of tofu, and you're like, wow, okay. But then you now I could eat a meal of 20 dishes of tofu and come home completely satisfied and moved by the experience and wondering yeah, and you start to understand how things are made and how things are arranged, and you appreciate the seasonal and seasons are a big thing here. So you eat what's in season, um, whether it's fish, vegetables, fruit, nuts, and berries and everything. This is something I didn't know in California. The produce that are in season are the most delicious. They really they taste the great, they taste the best, and they're they're great. The cabbage in winter is so sweet, and the in summer it's the tomatoes and the cucumbers, and you just because the four seasons are so distinct here, um, you can't, no matter how ignorant, blissfully ignorant a life you try to lead, you can't ignore the fact that it's spring and the flowers are blooming and the whatever is in season, and then summer comes and it's it's summer. You can't get a decent cabbage now because that's for winter. And you really do get an education in food and what's in season, and cooking with what's in season is not only delicious, it's better economically, it's cheaper, you know. So, yeah, it's definitely an education. I've gotten a food education living in Japan.
SPEAKER_05But also a lot of what you're describing sounds very sustainable life, actually. You know, the idea that instead of outfitting your kitchen with uh all new equipment, you use a very good iron pan and use it for your entire life, or eating what's currently locally in season and grown outside the city. Whereas what you again, I haven't been to the states, what you hear from the states isn't really that, it's a lot of plastic, and I want always the new and latest, and it doesn't matter how long it lasts, actually.
SPEAKER_10No, absolutely. I think um well I grew up in LA and we would go to the farmer's market all the time. So I think I grew up being around great produce and great fruit, um, especially the things I miss most, the naval oranges and the grapefruit and everything, all the all the fruit I miss now that I I grew up and avocados that I grew up eating in California. But it's true, I think the Japanese people, not everyone, because everything is starting to be obviously hey Siri, do this, and hey, hey Siri, do that, and people are able to, oh my Siri just activated. But um, but there are so many gadgets and and technology is so advanced here that you could easily outfit your entire kitchen or make it automatic. But I think the more that happens, the more people are being awakened to the hey, let's go back to the old Japanese ways. You know, it wasn't so bad back then when we used the same dishes every single day, but they were good, you know, ceramic plates and dinner wear. So people are have gotten, I think, more interested in in ceramics, just sustainable, not buying everything at the 100 yen store, um, not buying disposable. But I think the Japanese are so so discouraging their amount of packaging and what they do. They package every single cookie in every single box and things like that. So I think there's there's both. There's the extreme packaging, and wipe a countertop with a piece of tissue and tissue paper, and then you toss that. And that just I'm I'm sitting here just like shaking when I see people do that. At the same time, there are the people who want to eat just what's in season and and without much fanfare, just eating what's good and what's basic because it's the most nutritious and because it's the most tasty. Not not just to not to be, you know, not to live a monk life, monk style life, but just because when you think about it, it really is the most delicious. Or you don't need you don't need to add all the seasoning when you can just do a little bit of salt or a little bit of miso, or it really does taste good. Yeah. But I think you do have to you need to experience that. You need to have experienced people show you the way and say, you know that carrot that you that all you know how to do is peel and just eat as a carrot stick, you know? Like this there are some ways that you can prepare them where you know you you can actually enjoy them in different flavors and different textures, and the Californian comes in, oh my god, and everyone are you serious? Yeah. Yeah, I've definitely had my eyes opened. I think the two things living in Japan that I've learned the most are my reading life and my cooking and eating life, my food life, definitely.
SPEAKER_05What are other Japanese authors or books that you would recommend if somebody wants to start looking at Japanese literature?
SPEAKER_10I think this is not a new book by any means, but The Housekeeper and the Professor by Yoko Ogawa is something that I do recommend. Yoko Ogawa is an author that I recommend. Her most recent one is The Memory Police, which got a lot of press in the States and I think in the English-speaking community, and that was a great book as well. But The Housekeeper and the Professor is something I truly recommend. It's beautiful. Hiromi Kawakami is another author. I'm trying to remember because her her novel has two titles. It's not the briefcase.
SPEAKER_05I have one line here that I think by her Miss Ice Sandwich.
SPEAKER_10Oh, okay. There are two Kawakamis. One is Miyako and one is Hiromi. Miyako Kawakami is she is one of the hottest writers in Japan right now. It's unfortunate that her only book in translation is Miss Ice Sandwich, but this spring, her big Aktagawa prize-winning novel, Breasts and Eggs, is coming out in English. And she is one of the most talked-about young writers in Japan right now. So I do recommend if you want to really, really go contemporary, I definitely recommend her. Um Hiromi Kawakami still writes great novels, but she's more just well established. She and Yoko Gawa, they're kind of in the same generational category. Their books are, yeah, they they run the gamut. They there's some are quiet and beautiful love stories, and others are wild and and raging and kind of disturbing. So I think those are authors that you might explore until you find someone that you enjoy. Yeah. And then yeah, Communion Store Woman, and then there's another Picnic in the Storm by Yukiko Motoya. Those are modern novels, but I think I'm not sure that they would give you the most accurate depiction of Japan today because I think they're more on the odd side. Communion Store Woman was a bestseller here. It won a lot of literary prizes, but it also shocked a lot of people because it was so unconventional and out there, and people couldn't really understand it. Even Japanese people, they were creeped out by it, but they connected to it, they related to it, and it just it caused all kinds of all kinds of havoc in the country. But I think that's why it it's become such a conversation piece, but I don't think that it's a very accurate depiction of just when you think of Japan, think of convenience store woman, because that would be I think that would be a little bit scary. Um, it is one side to Japanese society, but you need to read a few more authors to get a more well-rounded view of Japan.
SPEAKER_05And because also I find that until the last two years ago, I found the mainstream Japanese author in translation was probably Marokami.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, Murakami.
SPEAKER_05Aha, and now obviously he is with his magical realism. That is very, very special genre. Now I'm not a fan at all, so hence for me, I read one of his books last year because I felt, you know, I read all those Japanese books, and now I still haven't read anything by him, so I felt I have to pick up something. And so I did pick up uh Sputnik's sweetheart. And it's it's just that this magic of realism just really isn't for me. So I felt that so far when people were speaking about Japanese language, it was about him a lot, uh Japanese literature. And I think this is really great now that that is changing and and adding that there's more to it and people can read more out of Japan than only in quotes uh Murakami.
SPEAKER_10Absolutely. I I agree. People in Japan, readers in Japan, are split down the middle. They love him or they hate him. So it's yeah, I think that's that's universal as well. Um it's just great to have more readers, more women readers, more modern readers, young readers, I mean sorry, writers, authors joining the conversation. And for them to have these pop art flashy covers, I think those are helping to to take Japan out of the old Kyoto kind of castle and shrine, and yeah, and that like that's that's one culture that once you start reading into it, oh, it's it's so deep and it's so interesting and fascinating. But there's also just the techno Tokyo, the techno-japan that's just super modern and and super crazy, and and people are wild and creative and hilarious and chatty, and they're they're both Japan. And I think it's great to have all of these authors who are able to talk about both.
SPEAKER_05That is so interesting that you're saying that because a white cover with what I'm assuming are the Japanese characters for sleep and on it in purple. So it's a very, very simple cover. And if you go to your Instagram account, there's a lot of those books that really have it's almost just white and some little bit of writing on the cover, and that's about it. And that somehow to me speaks a lot to the marikondo Japan, which is you know, have nothing anywhere and just straight lines uh and and emptiness. But yeah, that's it's true. There is the crazy Tokyo manga world in a way as well. And Penguin, for instance, brought out this collection, I think, of six novellas by various Japanese authors, and they're all very colorful and in your face. I actually had written down a question where I was like, are all book covers in Japan white and beijing?
SPEAKER_10And minimal and white shabby and beautiful. Yeah, that's so interesting. I think when people think of Japan, they think of either that or the robots and the manga. And so it's so extreme, but most of the people are a mix of all of those things. So they may have this serenity and you know, in parts of their lives while they're on their phone and they're in traffic and they're listening to their iPhones and they're texting at the same time and they're talking to Siri and they're doing this, and so it's it's all of it. When you come to Japan, some people might be disappointed because it's not as serene as they thought, or others might be disappointed because it's not as high-tech as they thought. Yeah, Japan is constantly evolving, and I think some people are fighting change and some people are promoting it, and so yeah, it's a fight like anywhere, I think.
SPEAKER_05But do you feel that Japanese culture is suddenly being picked up internationally by a lot of people as a point of interest? Again, Marie Kondo, basically how you tidy up your home. Do you feel that that is something that, for instance, in the US has been picked up a lot lately?
SPEAKER_10I think Marie Kondo played an enormous role in that. The fact that she has her television show and she speaks Japanese, and she has a wonderful translator, and it's just a normal thing that to have people speaking different languages but be brilliant at what they do. And so to to show people that oh wow, people who don't speak English are actually brilliant at things, and they can they're they're great writers and they're great at at what they do, and they're professionals, and they're artists, and they're creatives, and I think and they're baseball players, and they're in different, all different genres. And so I I don't know that it's Japan so much as just with streaming and people being more exposed to subtitled movies and TV, people are becoming more familiar and used to seeing these things. And I wonder if that's making it more non-American content on the map for Americans specifically. I don't think it's Japan necessarily. Japan is not becoming the topic of conversation. I think it's international, I think, more.
SPEAKER_05Um yeah, maybe it's not Japan only, but I do find East Asia, also now with the Academy Awards, everything that comes out of South Korea in terms of K-pop and K-drama, etc. So this has become such a thing over the last five years or something. And I agree with you in terms of you know Netflix being a great way of just making it accessible. If you go a decade back, you just didn't see any of that on TV. But now, thanks to Netflix, all of that is accessible. But also I find like people are more talking about it. And for instance, the book Pachinko that came out now, I think what is it, three years ago or something, just got so much press internationally.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, I definitely do believe it's it's more more writers are are writing about things that other people might not be familiar with. They're doing it loud, loudly and with pride, and and that I think is is so important. And so to be able to share any of that, some of that, any of that, with the rest of the world, I think is is always I'm always um a great fan of that. And you know, that's where translation comes in when it's done well and it's done kind of seamlessly. I think it gives not just a more accurate portrayal, but it it is more involving and it involves and includes more people and invites more people to join in. So I think translation is key. And I should say that the translator for Marie Kondo is interpreter. I was translators for the written word and interpreters for the spoken word. I shouldn't know this and done this myself, but I just wanted to make that clear. California minute. It takes a little while.
SPEAKER_08Steph here, I just wanted to pop in and tell you some information that you may not already know about the Geopets Podcast and specifically about my podcasting projects that extend beyond Geopaths, believe it or not. First and foremost, at stefuccio.com S-T E P H F U C C I O, you can see all of the things I'm about to talk to you about. There's podcast events and groups. There's groups for listeners and podcasters. Also, we've got Pod Rev Day, which is podcast review day. Now, if you're a podcast listener and you love podcasts, but you always forget to tell the podcasters what you think about their projects, podrev day is for you. It's on the 8th of every month, and the rest of the information you're gonna have to go to stafffuccio.com and click on podrev day to find out. To support the podcast, we have a support page with affiliates. We also have a buy me a coffee thing if you ever want to buy me a coffee. That's all on there. I have affiliates that will help you if you're a podcaster. I have affiliate links that'll help you if you're an expat, especially right now American expat. I hope to build those up to include more stuff. There's also a contact page where you you can leave me a typed message or you can leave me a voice message on Speakpipe. So however you spend your time on stefffuccio.com, I'm excited that you're listening, and I'm excited that you will go over to the website and check these things out and hopefully pass it on to someone else that you think might be interested. So all of that is at stefffuccio.com. There's more, but I just wanted to give you a quick overview. If you haven't been to my website, I'm pretty excited about the podcasting related things that we're doing, and I hope that you get involved.
SPEAKER_06Yuki Challenge is from getting changed for a man.
SPEAKER_05A very personal question, but that you met somebody Japanese. Is that a complete coincidence or is that you were very much involved in the Japanese community or something like that?
SPEAKER_10No, that was a complete unexpected encounter. I was not planning on it whatsoever. I was my plan was to stay in New York or move back to LA, but to stay in the States where my family is, my family and I were my we're all very close. So it was not part of the plan to be moving to Tokyo, but he happened to be in New York on a work trip.
SPEAKER_07Okay.
SPEAKER_10And he was there for about three weeks. And we met then and we kind of kept in touch. And it was a long-distance email relationship for a long time. And but then after, yeah, about two years of back and forth meeting here and there, we decided to take it to the next step, next level.
SPEAKER_05And so you're imagining staying in Tokyo now for the foreseeable future or for good, or are you shifting forth and back, you think?
SPEAKER_10It is right now back and forth. We do talk about moving back to the states eventually. But I think at this point in our lives, both of our lives, our work lives, professional lives, and personal. I really enjoy living here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_10So I think just for the time being, this is this is great. But I wouldn't be able to live in Tokyo if I didn't have LA to go home to, which I do several times a year for months at a time.
SPEAKER_05So you moved to the States when you were four. Now, do you remember anything from before that in Japan? No. My life begins at four.
SPEAKER_10It begins at the YMCA in San Pedro, California. I don't, I, I don't remember anything before that. So when my mom comes to Japan, she'll visit, she'll take me to the old nursery school that I attended before we moved to LA or the old the apartment building. It's not there anymore, but they would say, Yes, this is where you grew up. And we used to walk along these cherry blossom-lined roads, and and I wouldn't, I don't understand any of that, or I don't remember any of that. But there's a strange familiarity. I can't quite put my finger on it, but there's something about Tokyo that feels familiar. I think it's just from my parents, their stories, and the stories, you know, from my grandparents and things like that.
SPEAKER_05So, what do you think makes you an American? And is there anything in you that makes you a Japanese?
SPEAKER_10Yeah, this is something that I've thought about since for as long as I can remember. I do consider myself more American in my thinking. I was educated completely in America. I spend most of my time here, even in Japan, listening to and watching and following American news and podcasts and things like that. I think what makes me American is being open and pretty straightforward in expressing how we feel, and as opposed to in Japan, where you're supposed to kind of just read the room and everyone seems to understand what the other person is thinking. And as a foreigner, you walk in. I feel like I've heard this said a lot that foreigners, when they come to Japan, they just feel like a bull in a China shop. And I I completely understand that you feel like you're the only person in the room who does not know what is going on. There are a million conversations going on, non-verbal communication, everything that you just have no clue about. I do feel that there was a great lesson in nuance and depth and emotion that's not necessarily expressed, but you're supposed to kind of just sense it. And there is some there is something profound about it the more you start to see these things and sense them. And I think the reason why I've started to be able to pick up on some of those things is because I read a lot of Japanese literature, a lot of modern Japanese literature, and that's basically my textbook. When I don't understand what someone is thinking or feeling, I'll read that and it'll express how this wonderful wonderland of thoughts and everything going on in this person's head. And I realize, oh, okay, so there is something behind that, and there's probably more than what I as an American might even think to think of. So the communication here is because it's not in your face, there's a depth to it, and you kind of learn to really look, I think, and listen and watch out for clues.
SPEAKER_05Was basically researching Japanese literature, etc. I came across sort of a guideline on how to bow because that's the main respectful greeting method, and the different angles you should take depending on what you're trying to communicate. You know, are you just meeting a friend's mom? Then it's a 10% angle. Are you meeting somebody very seriously 20% angle? But and then when you want to apologize or something, you really go for 45 degrees. And I I was so impressed because quite frankly, I would constantly think about okay, am I at the right angle? Am I offending somebody just by you know bowing too much or too little?
SPEAKER_10Right, right, right. Yeah. I think if you live in the corporate world today, I think there's still a lot of bowing. That just happens naturally. It's kind of like a handshake. It's not anything that people really think about. Yeah, it's when you meet someone and you say nice to meet you, and you put out your hand and they take it and you shake, or in other cultures you hug or you you kiss. Um it's yeah, it's it's second nature. So people don't go around saying, Okay, this person is a 45 degree and this person is a 15 degree. Um I think I think that's still a lot of bowing still happens in the corporate world. But in my personal life, I can't remember the last time I bowed. I just don't you don't have to bow to every every person you meet on the street, or every person you meet on the street, or even neighbors, or you know, we're we're friendly. It doesn't, it doesn't mean that we're not friendly, it just means that a a wave or a you know, hey, how's it going? That's that's just as good.
SPEAKER_05I completely see that. However, I found throughout my expert life, I met a lot of Americans and they do seem to get physically very quickly, not in a romantic way, but purely if you meet. And even if you meet a complete stranger, but if you have a conversation over, let's say half an hour, by the end of that conversation, you're likely to hug to when you say goodbye. Now, that's already for me as a German, that's okay, but that's already quite quick. Uh and I could imagine just like seeing the Japanese. I don't see that going really well with the culture. Right.
SPEAKER_10Oh, that's that's funny. I I get that a lot. I I do a lot of hugging, but obviously not when I've just met a person, but if they're friends or someone that I've met several times and have gotten to know, I'll I'll give them a hug, but I'll I'll do it in a playful way, like this is how we do it in America. Let's hug and I'll make a big production out of it so so they can laugh and enjoy. But I don't see two Japanese people hugging for no reason. Okay. Just to just to say hi or bye. Unless it's if the two friends haven't seen each other for a long time, of course, they're not gonna go up to each other and bow. They'll go up to each other and and engulf each other in big hugs, I think.
SPEAKER_05I have to bring that up just now because you mentioned that you're obviously very much still into American pop culture, etc. Have you heard of the series Queer Eye? Of course. So Queer Eye, just for everybody who doesn't know, is a Netflix series with five gay guys who go and make over homes and lives of various usually American people, but they did have a season, a short season in Japan as well.
SPEAKER_10Did you see that? I did not, I have not. I I will. I've seen the advertisements for it everywhere. So yeah, I look forward to it.
SPEAKER_05This is really something that I was thinking about now, just because they come in and hug everything and everybody they can find. They have an elderly woman, and she was really like stuck still at the first, oh my god, what's happening? And so this is really what I imagining between the Americans and Japanese.
SPEAKER_10I think secretly Japanese people love it when people come and hug them, scoop them up in a big bear hug. And I think they it's not something they're not revolted by it or anything. I think they enjoy it, they would be more alarmed if a Japanese person came up to them and hugged them. So a lot of the societal rules in Japan, I feel, are so interesting because some things are allowed if it's between a Japanese person and a foreigner. Something are allowed if it's, you know, like the hug. If a foreigner or someone who is not Japanese comes in and hugs someone, then no one thinks anything of it. Or if someone, a non-Japanese person is has a drink on the train and is drinking it, no Japanese person is going to go and tell him to or her to, you know, take that drink out. But if you're a Japanese person, you're not supposed to eat or drink on the train, and you should know that. So if you are, you're gonna have a couple people glancing at you, glancing your way. So there are a lot of rules that Japanese people kind of put on themselves, but they don't necessarily expect everyone who comes to Japan, I don't think, to follow those rules.
SPEAKER_05No, but you you are born to Japanese parents, so you look from the outside Japanese. So if you're just standing in a train and let's say you would eat or drink something, everybody else would assume you're Japanese. Have you encountered sort of issues or situations where Yeah, they would absolutely assume that I was clueless.
SPEAKER_10And because I look, I do, I look Japanese. My name is Yuki. Um, I speak I speak Japanese fluently, so unless you got to know me a little better, you would never know. And mostly I've learned to kind of play along. I'm not out to prove a point by having a drink on the train. But if I'm but at the same time, I'm not so overly careful that I'm not able to do what I want. Little things I always joke, but Japanese women are, you know, they're perfectly made up wherever they go, to the supermarket, to the convenience store. And I remember just being makeup free all day, all week when on vacation, because that's just what you do. You know, no one comes up to you and says, Oh, you have no makeup on, how dare you? But you just kind of feel like okay, I should either cover up or or put some makeup on just for me to feel comfortable. Okay. So that's the yeah. So nothing, I've never had anyone come up to me and accuse me of anything, but I do feel myself making sure that I don't I'm not doing anything out of place or out of place.
SPEAKER_05Now, you mentioned your reading life already. When did you start reading?
SPEAKER_10Oh, reading, reading, reading. I have a photo or I have audio actually. My mom has audio of me when I was three or something, reciting a Japanese book to my to my brother, my my newer brother. But but she has a photo of it, and I'm holding the book upside down. So I'm not reading it. I'm not reading it, but I'm reciting it and thinking that I was reading it. But I think I loved books going back to yeah, that age. And then when we moved to the States, it was it was all about, of course, the Babysitters Club and the Ramona Quimby books and the Judy Bloom books and the all of those books. I read all of those books in elementary school. So I've always loved books. Um, when my father would come to Japan on business trips, I would ask him to buy these YA books. I would give him a list and he would have to buy these pink books with cute manga girls on them, and but he brought them back because I think my parents were just they were happy with my brothers and I being exposed to any kind of Japanese. Yeah. So they they were happy that we were reading Japanese at all.
SPEAKER_05So overall, you think you were equally influenced by Japan and the US in terms of what you read, or was it more US or definitely more US, more America.
SPEAKER_10I I hadn't read any Japanese literature of the classic, the literary, the ones that everyone should know. I haven't, I'd never been exposed to those, so I'd never read those. It's only in the past couple of years since I started the Bookner and Tokyo account that I thought, oh, you know, I should probably have at least a basic understanding of these books because I get a lot of questions. Obviously, I asked for it with a name like Bookner Tokyo, and a lot of people just asking me for recommendations on Japanese literature and what do I think of Mishima and what's my favorite Kawabata? And I'm just like, oh god, I should at least let me quickly check. Yeah, yeah, let me quickly check my Google and I'll get back to you. So definitely, definitely American literature because of what we read in schools. We're we're made to read the classics in school, so yeah, I did grow up reading those. And then I think I feel like I'm educating myself right now as an adult on Japanese literature.
SPEAKER_05But I'm assuming that's also easier being in Japan because just the accessibility obviously of books is so much better and bigger.
SPEAKER_10Yes, yes. If I were not living in Tokyo, I think I would have gone my entire life happily without knowing any of this Japanese literature. But I do read a lot of modern novels, so modern novelists and novels and new releases, and being part of the ongoing conversation now, I think that's something that is really intriguing to me. And that's something that you can only experience when you live in Tokyo, and you can go to the bookstores and the book signings and the stuff and read the publications that are just out and the articles that everyone's talking about. And yeah, I think that's the part of the reading life that I really enjoy.
SPEAKER_05Yes, and I think you had just recently a post based on the Times of Japan, was it? That spoke about this new wave of Japanese literature, and I think with that based on the book which got a lot of press the last couple of years, which is Convenience Store Woman by Sayaka Murata. I think I I want to leave our listeners with the idea that please pick up Kitchen is such a beautiful book. Every time I read it, and I'm really not a person who rereads books a lot, but I read it three times in the last nine months. So and every time I finish it, I'm feeling so uplifted and positive and sort of yay, the world is actually a good place.
SPEAKER_10Um absolutely, it's it's it's just quiet. Um, it's it's a quiet kind of confidant, someone that you can have a long one-on-one chat with about your deepest, darkest moments, I think. And it doesn't expect anything in return. And yeah, I know that it saved me on several occasions.
SPEAKER_05Oh wow. But Nana Yoshimoto has written other books as well by now. Is that your favorite of hers? Would you recommend another one of her books?
SPEAKER_10She is 55 years old now, and last year I think she released four books. Four or five books. So she is still writing Up a Storm. I do love Kitchen, but I think in every season of my own life, there was a book of hers that just struck me down. And I Shimokitazawa, um, I think it's called Moshimoshi in English. Again, it's about a young woman who has lost her father, and she lives in a town called Shimokitazawa in Tokyo, and this is the story of her recovery. Whereas for Mikage, it was the kitchen. For this girl, it's the town of Shimokitaza, which is a bustling, it's a great town. I love it, and I go often. And Yoshimoto actually lives there. She grew up there, so she writes about it a lot. So I think Moshimoshi was another one that healed me when I needed to be healed. There are several more that I don't think are translated into English. Some are very odd. I don't call myself a fan of Yoshimoto, just I'll read w whatever she reads. I think a lot of her books have turned me off. Like I just can't understand that that relationship. I just mmm, sorry. I just think it's just not a part of my vocabulary. But other times um she'll write these quiet novels that just kind of stay with you and and wrap you up and help you heal, I think, especially when you're feeling alone, when you're feeling lonely, and when you're feeling separated from the rest of the people around you. I think her there's something really comforting about her books.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I agree. And but I also agree with what you said about every phase of your life has probably books that uh really resonate with what you feel and what you're going through. Another book by her I read is Asleep. Yeah, I read that last year. Yeah, so it's three novella short stories. And the first two, I was like, oh, you know, this book is not for me. And then Asleep came along, and I was like, Oh my god, this is written for me. Yes, um because it was speaking about finding your your purpose in life in a way, and um getting out there and just doing something to find that because it's not just gonna come uh knocking on your door, and that really spoke to me, but I completely agree that was what my life was revolving around a lot at that time. So, again, that's probably something that counts for a lot of authors that are not writing that much on a on a content-driven side, but really books that you feel in a way, and um, I think that you just have to find the right one. But I think she has the right one for everybody.
SPEAKER_10I think so too. I think so too. And if if the one you're reading is is just not for you, like I recently read Lizard by her, and I was like, nope, nope, not for me. Not I don't connect with any of these short stories. So if if that happens, you know, just that one wasn't for you, but maybe don't write off the author completely because she might still, you know, have another one in her canon that might be for you. So she has enough books for you to be able to probably find something that that you can connect with.
SPEAKER_06Oh yeah. The driving to work to keep the cars they drive. They're driven to win and live the will to power we hear and every day and every hour. You can try it forget it. You can try to follow the back of the jump, double by the bike. Oh yeah. Oh, yeah.
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