SPEAKER_05

We have an over reliance on this idea of freedom and freedom of media, freedom of choice, free speech. There's no government in this world that would would wisely allow its its citizens complete access to everything and to say anything that would be dangerous for the running of the of the country, to be honest. But I think people's assumption that because there are pretty rigid and unapologetic government restrictions, that that's somehow restrictive and it's not. I actually believe, and I say this without pause, that China is about 15 times more advanced in the usefulness of social media than the United States.

SPEAKER_03

Welcome to the Geopats Podcast, an audio experience to scratch your cultural curiosity itch with many different kinds of expat lens themed shows. Basically, we talk to expats about different niche aspects of their daily life in different countries. This episode is part of the virtual expats show where we discuss how moving to different countries affects what we do online as expats and geopats. Our other shows so far have included topics like books and languages. In this episode, I am pleased to welcome Kitora Kendrick. Who is Kotora? Kutora is an intelligent, articulate, and delightful person to talk to. I met her at a podcast creators meeting and knew within a few seconds that I'd have to talk her into coming on the show to meet y'all. Her honesty on her online activities pre and post-moving to China is really interesting. Kutora's now back in New York City. You'll hear in the interview where she talks about leaving China in a few days after the interview. So thank you again, Kutora, for doing this while you were packing. She's also on her book tour for the book we'll talk about in the interview as well. No thanks. And she's also suffering through, I'm sure, the adjustments of not having WeChow in Alipay and Erluma and all the other apps we'll talk about too, and the other mobile app conveniences of China that she so aptly describes in this conversation. We wish her all of the happiness she can handle on and offline. A few quick notes before we start. A special thank you to Damon Castillo for the music. You'll hear the instrumental version of Sometime Guy from the Mess of Me album throughout the episode, and then you'll hear the full lyriced out song at the end. The Geopets Podcast newsletter comes out every Tuesday, and the new epis the new issue is out now, so go to Stefffuccio.com to get that and also get on the mailing list to get it every week in your email inbox. If listening to podcasts makes you think about making your own, I can help you. You can get a free month of Podbean hosting service by using this promo code podbean.com forward slash virtual expats. Don't forget the S. If you're an expat, I'm also doing some beginning expat podcasting workshops online. Go to Steph Puccio.com for more information. If you don't want to record your voice but need a voice, you can buy mine. I'm doing some voiceover work at voices.com forward slash actors forward slash Steph Puccio. What I'm not charging for are the promo spots in these episodes. These are offered to content creators and people who have announcements about information, content, and whatnot that is related to what we're talking about in these episodes. If you have any comments or questions while you're listening to this episode, please do feel free to reach out to me. My handle is Steph Fuccio, S-T E P H F U C C I O, literally everywhere online. That is my handle. Let's get to Katura and her fascinating online story. I'm so excited to talk to you. You have no idea.

SPEAKER_05

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03

I'm excited to I'm excited that you're excited and I'm happy to be on your show. I appreciate the offer. Well, thank you so much, Ketora, for joining us on the Virtual Expats Podcast. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Thanks a lot. I am so excited. This is another one of those instances where we're in the same city, but things are too busy, too hectic, and too gross outside to go to the same place. So we're doing this remotely. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05

And Shanghai is so darn big, it's like being in two different cities anyway.

SPEAKER_03

So seriously. Have you ever been anywhere that didn't take an hour?

SPEAKER_05

Oh, I I because I I lived in New York City for about 14 years from moving to Shanghai. And I thought that was just especially with public transportation, it was just always a challenge getting to see friends. Shanghai has a whole new spin, that whole entire concept.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Man, oh man, oh man. Well, while we're talking about places, can you give our listeners a brief overview of where you have lived in the world?

SPEAKER_05

Wow, sure. Well, I was born and raised in New Orleans, the beautiful, the most wonderful, coolest city in the United States of America. So I my first residence was Louisiana, um, because that is where I spent the first 26 years of my life. Then I moved to New York City, which I often refer to as the love of my life. Yes, I truly, truly adore New York City. I lived there for about 14 years, um, then got wanderlust got the best of me. And I left New York City and the U.S. and moved to Rwanda in East Africa. Um, lived in Rwanda for about two years, and within those two years, just got my travel in and visited about 13 African nations while I lived in Rwanda. And then after my two-year tenure in Rwanda ended, I came here to the high to Shanghai, China, and I've been here about for yeah, three years. So that's yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_03

How did you end up going from Rwanda to China? Great question. People ask it a lot because as you can imagine, they're two very different regions of the world.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, maybe a little bit. I think um I I was always intrigued with for reasons that I can't really make tangible, but I've always been intrigued with Africa and Southeast Asia. Um, when I decided to leave the states, it was kind of my vague plan to spend four years on the continent of Africa so I could get to see as many countries as I wanted to, and then four years somewhere in Asia. Um, and I had originally thought Southeast Asia because I was intrigued by Indonesia, I was intrigued by the Philippines, by Malaysia. Um, ended up in China because I'm I am an I'm an international English teacher and China's pay skill.

SPEAKER_03

Quite nice.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, it was just more useful for me as as a grown-grown woman with a mortgage back in the States. Um I came to China really because especially Shanghai, it gave me access to um all of the countries in Asia that I truly desired. I also wanted to visit Japan as well, for that's mentioned Japan. So um ended up ended up in Shanghai because it was just a smart decision um for my exploration of Asia.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, and you've been here how many years again?

SPEAKER_05

Three years. This is my third year.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. So now if that's your geographical footprint. How about your your internet footprint when you've been doing stuff online? When would you say is the first time you really started using the internet, social media, anything online for the first time on like a daily basis?

SPEAKER_05

Interesting. Um, you know what? And I I find this question funny because I am aversive to technology. I feel like I'm like an 85-year-old woman in a 40-year-old woman's. I when when Facebook first hit the scene, at least when I first realized it was a thing, had to be a decade ago. And I really started with Facebook because it seems like that's what everybody else was doing. I used to keep in touch with my friends back in New Orleans, especially through email, but everybody got on Facebook, so it seemed like, oh, this is how we're gonna communicate now. Cool. It's much more efficient, it's quicker. You know, you get to post pictures of your hamburger and make little sort of smart alecky comments. Oh, fun, cool, share some pictures, whatever, whatever. So I started using Facebook, truly not getting the social media, like it's right there in the definition. I was right there in the name, but I didn't get that it was media, that it was sort of like the new way of giving access to regular people to advertise or to promote or to just get news from any number of sources. So somewhere around, probably within the last, hmm, I would say last two or three years, I became more strategic in how I used Facebook and Twitter and Instagram because I started a podcast that I wanted to get out there into the ether. And I also published a book. And I went with a hybrid publisher that has traditional publishing as well as self-publishing um traits or aspects of it. And a huge part of being an independent author is being able to get people to see, to get to being able to promote your book, and social media became really useful in that aspect. So I would say I was late to the game, but not like I was aware of all of the different social media um stuff. I was aware of IG, I was aware of Twitter, I was aware of Facebook. And when I came to China, of course, I was very much aware of WeChat. But I don't think I quite got that it was a real life thing that we should be using for any other purposes besides a way to send our pictures of our, you know, our teenager who was graduating high school to everybody at once as opposed to saying, here's an email, hopefully open it. I didn't think I didn't really think of it as a as a thing.

SPEAKER_03

And there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, the a huge part of the internet is about those communications between people that know each other. Were you using like Facebook and email and and websites and things before that moment of three or four years ago when you started to to strategically use it?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, um, I I forgot about it. I started a blog too about 10 years ago. But once again, the blog itself, which was used to WordPress, WordPress, was every four or five months, I'd get some burst of inspiration. I'd get this idea. I was like, I want to say something. And I would do a blog post and I would post it on Facebook, and you know, it was much just much like an open mic posture reading in the 90s where you just write this poem and you really don't really think about what you're gonna do with it until someone's like, hey, we're having open mic, let's come and read your poem. So I think that's sort of what I did with my blog as well. So yeah, literally until about three years ago, two or three years ago, I didn't use it strategically at all. As a matter of fact, I remember when I left New York City and I was telling um my students where I taught in New York, oh yeah, I'm not coming back to this school next year. I'm gonna I'm leaving and moving to Africa. Um and they're like, oh my goodness, that's so cool. You have to add me on IG. And I was like, who?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I didn't know. And they were like, Oh, IG got so popular, but it did kind of burst onto the scene after being around for a long time.

SPEAKER_05

Really? Because I'd I I knew what Instagram was, and I know I had friends who had it, but I was just like, again, it just felt like what's the point of it? Because I already have Facebook and that's where all my people are. And they were like, add me on Instagram, and I didn't even know how to use it. They took my phone out of my hand and downloaded Instagram and then literally added themselves.

SPEAKER_03

Right. Oh, that's really sweet. You know, you're teaching well when your students want you on social media.

SPEAKER_05

Exactly. It was so, so sweet. And I just remember thinking, oh, okay, now what do I do with this? I didn't understand what the point of it was because I kind of felt like it was a whole nother thing that I had to check and keep up with. It just felt tedious and tiresome. And I was like, well, I already did it on Facebook. I have to now have to check this. And so when I take a picture, I have to put it on this and Facebook, but but why? And to and for years, literally, for the first year or two, I posted on Instagram like literally every three or four months, and I remember, oh yeah, that's right. The girls probably want to see, because I told it in all girls school New York City. The girls probably want to see me in Senegal. Let me put this picture up on Instagram.

SPEAKER_06

Wow.

SPEAKER_05

And so when I when I when I started, when I finished my book and started thinking about the publicity campaign and how to get eyes on it outside of just people who knew me, um, I really took Instagram and Twitter seriously and I I learned pretty quickly, Instagram is a lot hotter and a lot more useful in some ways than Twitter and Facebook together. I have more followers on Facebook, but Instagram is a lot more useful in being able to get my to get my message out, to be able to connect with my audience way more so than Facebook and Twitter. I just I just give I'm just giving up on Twitter.

SPEAKER_03

I don't think Twitter's taking an unfortunate turn. And Twitter is near and dear to my heart. I think what most people think about Facebook, I think about Twitter. And so when Twitter kind of started going downhill, I was like, no, baby, no.

SPEAKER_05

It's like don't do it. Yeah, just I think if you if if you haven't been on the ride this whole time trying to get engagement, trying to get new followers, trying to get some yeah, it's not worth it. It's like, why am I doing all this work and getting no results?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, Twitter's a serious investment. Instagram is so hot right now, and I don't know when that happened, but it felt like a light switch. But it's so hot. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, so I I have I I just keep my Twitter up again because it's good to have it out there, but it's not something that I worry about anymore because I was like, this is exhausting, and it's exhausting with very little payoff. So I'm not gonna exhaust myself.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. And it is exhausting to use, especially when you're promoting creative projects, to put a different type of post, which is what you're supposed to do, on different social media for the same idea. It's exhausting. Yeah. Exactly. Well, we're talking around your ideas. Let's let's let's give them names. Can you tell our listeners about your podcast?

SPEAKER_05

Sure. My podcast is called Unchained, Unbothered, and it features the voices of free black women from around the world. Um, so I wanted to focus on and center the stories of women from the African diaspora, whether they are continental Africans or Caribbean or American, um, but women from the African diaspora who have decided that they are going to center themselves in their lives and they're going to make choices, even when those choices are not necessarily traditional, that are in their best interest. Um, so it it airs every two weeks, so I have a bi-weekly schedule, and it's in its second season, and it's doing pretty well. I've got I've built up quite a um a loyal following. Um yeah, that's my podcast. And the book is No Thanks, right?

SPEAKER_06

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05

Thank you. I my my actually my publisher came to that title because the title I had, she was like, it's two on the nose. Trust me, no thanks is gonna get you a lot more. What was the other title? The the other title was I choose me. Um, because it's yeah, the in and the subtitle was Reflections on Freedom, because I had this whole concept of the podcast is going to be about again, freedom, choosing with intention and um and and and and agency, your life and your choices and owning those. So the book was going to be like a a complement to that. So I was like, Yeah, we have to make sure they understand it's about freedom. And she was like, they'll get that. Um but you need a title that's not so on the nose. And I was like, Oh, okay, I guess. I mean, you've published books for 16 years, and I've published no books for no years. So go with what I think they were on something with this.

SPEAKER_03

That is a powerful, powerful title.

SPEAKER_05

Exactly. And and when we when I agreed to and I started telling people about it, especially when I started promoting it, I was like, oh, I see what she's saying. Now this is a lot snazier.

SPEAKER_03

And it's it's a lot easier to remember too. Like I choose me, I choose me is it's I get the meaning and I love the meaning, and it makes my heart all warm and glowy, but no thanks is more like a it's got an oomph behind it. That's fair.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, and you can you can use it, it can be a slogan, it could be a hashtag, and you may just and it's not so so like blatant and f all y'all.

SPEAKER_03

It's kind of yeah, yeah, which sometimes it feels like might be more effective, but this is a nicer way of doing that.

SPEAKER_05

Exactly, exactly. Like you smile when you say no thanks.

SPEAKER_04

Hey there, you're listening to Civil, and I'm the host, content creator, interlocutor at the Mars Civil Podcast. It's a weekly podcast for blacks and Asians and those who welcome. It's also a platform about culture, it gives the backdrop of important issues such as acculturation, preserving cultural values, hard stories, mental health issues, and so much more. I describe myself as Nigerian born, you're syndicated, Korean speaking, and wandering intellectual. My unique perspective derives from my experience growing up in Nigeria to now living in the US, living Korean, and enriched by the adventures my travels have brought up. You can check out the podcast on iTunes, I'm Cross Teacher, or Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcast on. If you love stories related to cultural experiences, listen to the show. Plus, you'll get the opportunity to get to know me along the way. And that's pretty, pretty good.

SPEAKER_03

So let's let's get back online. Because you've done two big jumps. One jump over to Africa and the other jump over to China. So when you were in Rwanda and traveling around those 13 nations, were you online in any way? Not just promoting things, but just being you online to keep in touch, find information, anything. Were you doing anything on?

SPEAKER_05

I was not. I literally, like when I I had someone approach me of a traveling, like a group travel company who wanted to feature me and in this campaign they were doing to encourage more women to travel solo, right? And she said, Look, I need six pictures of you at landmarks or whatever around the world. The only rule is that they can only be you. If you took pictures with groups, that's fine, but it wants I want you in a picture. And I went through all of the photos I had posted on Facebook, the ones on IG, the ones I still had on my phone, because by that time I had switched phones or whatever. And I realized that there were very few photos of me. Most of them were photos of something, like the monuments or some landmark or some food, because I realized this is really for my friends. They seem very excited about this adventure I'm on. And I had to remind myself, well, yeah, they told me to post a bunch of pictures about about being in Senegal. Let me post these pictures. So I literally was only on online and using the internet when I was sort of posting photos to share with friends. I mean, I would also make posts on Facebook talking about my experience, but it wasn't something. I think I realized that I my my goal with the traveling was not what some people come to. They want to be like travel bloggers and they want to be influencers. Um I realized that wasn't that yeah, that wasn't for me. Like it was only because I knew my friends and family were intrigued with the places I was going and I wanted to share it with them. And for people who thought I would be kidnapped or trafficked to like you know, I was still alive.

SPEAKER_03

Oh god.

SPEAKER_05

Like I'm posting now, I'm still alive, calm down. Right, right, right, right. But that that was its only, its only purpose.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah. When you were blogging, was that when you were back in New York?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, I started my blog when I was in New York City and and um became more, what do you call it, more consistent with it once I moved abroad. But yeah, I started it about 10 years ago now still in New York, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. So let's let's fast forward to Shanghai. When you moved to China, what did you find yourself doing online? And was it different than what you were doing when you were in New York?

SPEAKER_05

Well, I find that particularly moving to China, realizing how very much insulated in a specific technology, some technology was to China, like discovering WeChat and Alipay. Alipay, I still exclusively only use to pay to pay for stuff. Like I don't know what I'm going to do with cash when and when when and if I I leave China, I have no idea what I'm going to do. It's so awful.

SPEAKER_02

It's so you'll have to find your wallet answer.

SPEAKER_05

Find your wallet, and then they give you these little coins, and then you have loose, and you have to and they get stuff up, and you stuff if they stuff up your wallet, it's it's really a pain in the butt. So I use Alipay still mostly just for transactions, but discovering the world of WeChat and how all encompassing and how useful and practical it is for more than just, you know, I think sort of superficial posting of memes or or funny, silly stuff. That's that part of it that I think is fun and not necessarily a bad thing. But I think I I became sold on the usefulness of technology and these internet apps and and and stuff like that when I came to Shanghai because WeChat is a platform that truly makes so much sense. And I can see, oh, this is why there are so many people who are who like who are into tech and and IT who are like these IT nerds and who are just like, oh my gosh, race in the world, because it truly is very useful. So I started to see the the the beauty in apps being able to control your to be able to help your life in so many ways. Language apps, um transportation apps, um just that it became much more useful useful to me, and now I don't use these um. These resources grudgingly. I'm like, I'm so glad we have all of these things. If I if I lost my phone, it would it would be a tragedy. Not just being hyperbolic, like I wouldn't be able to function, especially as a woman in a foreign country. Yeah. It's just detrimental to my safety not to have use of my phone. Um, so I think I became much more conscious of it, strategic with it, and intentional with it once I came to Shanghai, which again is a conjunction with also at this point had started writing a book and then it was published and I needed to use it. It was out of necessity too. Um, but I think even before that process started, I I became sold on the usefulness of of internet and social media because of China and WeChat.

SPEAKER_03

Wow, okay, wait a minute, back up. Are you saying that moving to China turned you more into uh an online person? That's not a person.

SPEAKER_05

Oh, most definitely. Most definitely, absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. See, I wanted people to hear that because a lot of people think when you go behind the firewall, everything shuts down. But we really do have parallel apps for everything here.

SPEAKER_05

No, and I also think people, well, first of all, particularly Americans, we we have an over-reliance on this idea of freedom and freedom of media, freedom of choice, free speech, which doesn't necessarily exist in America. They have more of it, say, in China, but that doesn't exist. There's no government in this world that would wisely allow its citizens complete access to everything and to say anything that would be dangerous for the running of the of the country, to be honest. Um, but I think people's assumption that because there are pretty rigid and unapologetic government restrictions, that that's somehow restrictive and it's not. Like obviously, if my VPN isn't working, I can't get Netflix or I can't get the New York Times for some reason, it's a pain in the butt and it's frustrating. But I actually believe, and I say this without pause, that China is about 15 times more advanced in the usefulness of social media than the United States. Um, again, like I say, when I go back to the US, being have being able having to remember to pull out my debit card, like for what? Like, I don't I don't even know what my debit card is because I just pull out my phone. When it's time to pay, when I go to a group dinner, I don't have to, we don't have to worry about getting out the calculated and do these calculate these complicated mathematical equations inside we really there's an there's something on the WeChat app to divide the bill up. Split pay.

SPEAKER_03

I love that thing so much.

SPEAKER_05

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03

When I discovered Split Pay, it was like, oh no. I never used Uber much in the US. How do you even pay for Uber?

SPEAKER_05

Do you have to break it up? I assume it I didn't use Uber very much either, um, because again, I was in New York City and I was a true I was a subway girl. Subway is the city's Uber. Um so I don't I'm not sure how it works, but I assume it works like Didi. But again, Didi is one of those things that as a foreign woman alone in the in in a country where you don't speak much of a language, it is truly invaluable. It's truly invaluable to forgetting you from point A to point B. And I also before I can get Didi on my phone, because when I the phone I had when I first came here, it didn't like being in China. It was just like, no, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not gonna download no app. You can press this a thousand times. I'm not I'm not gonna download on it.

SPEAKER_03

Can I tell you it's a not so secret? My the phone that I brought with me from the US, uh, it um it didn't work because the system, the internet in China was too far ahead of what I was using with my smartphone. Yeah. So I could only for text messages because it couldn't handle the 4G that they had here.

SPEAKER_05

Um maybe that was what was wrong with my phone too, because when it came here, I was just like, it would not download Didi. It would always get up to a certain point and then it would stop. So I because of that, I didn't have Didi, but I had one of one of the many um men who work who works as drivers. Um and one of my coworkers said, Oh, I know I have this guy who's like my driver, and he used to have a fleet of cars for Disney, so he can now have his own business. So that he was my Didi. I was in a WeChat thing, oh, I'm right here, Mr. Frank. Can you send somebody to come get me? He'd be like, all right, 20 minutes. Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_03

Oh my god, that's fantastic.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah. And that could and that could have not been done without WeChat because um, as you know, WeChat has a translation um feature where if you type up in English what you want to say, the person can then press it and get it translated into Chinese. Yep. It's not perfect, obviously. You're not gonna get an A star in in language class.

SPEAKER_03

Or one thing I learned how to do also is that you can preset uh messages for your drivers and have them ready in there. Like I have one preset with my address in Chinese. Yeah. So I actually got like a local friend to write something to the because I can read a little bit of Chinese, but I can't hear it fast enough to understand it. So I had them actually write out something in Chinese that says in Hansa characters, uh, I can't speak Chinese, but I can read it. If you need to contact me, please write here in Chinese. So as soon as I order one and they accept, I send them that message, and most of the time they don't try to call me.

SPEAKER_05

What? Oh, I wish I'd had that so long ago. It's well made so many awkward conversations, not awkward.

SPEAKER_03

It's like it took me a year and a half to think that, and I was like, Oh, I could have done this before I learned to read. I could have because you can translate within that too. So I was like, why didn't I think of this? But yeah, there's things in WeChat. How do you describe WeChat to people who don't live here?

SPEAKER_05

I I I I oh I I just described it the other day to somebody. I say it is an all-encompassing app that is like a gift from baby Jesus. That is what I say, and I let them try to figure out what all of that means on their own. Like I basically say all of these disparate apps, like you have your IG to post your pictures and the floss on the gram. Look at me, I'm on the beach in Bali. You have Facebook to send around all of your think pieces and your articles, and also have these discussions with your friends and joke. You have um Twitter for similar things, but the the platform is limiting. You just really can send only these quick little characters, you can't do as much with it. And you and some of us use like Cash App or Apple. Does that is Apple Pay still a thing? I feel like I heard it for a quick minute, then it went away.

SPEAKER_03

It should exist, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, but most people don't I don't hear people referring to it and using it as much. I think it's more like Cash App and Venmo, PayPal for the old people.

SPEAKER_02

Oh PayPal, bless.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, PayPal is still plugging along. Bless is hard. It is still plugging along.

SPEAKER_02

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_05

So you have we have all of that.

SPEAKER_03

Glenn. Sorry, when we were in San Francisco, let's see, one, two, three, four, four years ago now, uh, my husband was working very temporarily at Trader Joe's, and we were still taking checks, paper checks.

SPEAKER_02

Are you kidding me?

SPEAKER_03

No, I I left so much. Yeah. I was like, you're kidding. And do people like they accept them, but nobody actually came with them? And he's like, no, like every maybe like every seven or eight customers is not that common, but they had them. They had papers.

SPEAKER_05

But the fact that they still even have seven or eight customers come with, do they still make checks? Does the bank still print out checks? I won't I'm curious now. If I sent my bank a message asking for checks, what would they laugh at me? I don't even know how to do that.

SPEAKER_03

I don't think they do. I don't think they do. I I I think, I mean, I think they do have them. I don't think they would laugh at you because people are still using them at least four years ago.

SPEAKER_05

Wow, yeah. So, and I think we and I tell them that WeChat is basically all of that in one app, and you never have to leave the app to do all of those things. Right. I think it does have some components that aren't as that aren't as as as as what do you call it intuitive as the different features of the different apps using the states. Like, yeah, I don't necessarily find WeChat a very useful place to have quote unquote discussions about stuff, although some of the groups I'm in, they try to discuss stuff. I'm like, just the way this whole thing is set up is annoying and it's doing nothing. And discuss anything deep uh of depth. Um, but but even though some aspects of it aren't as intuitive to me or as useful to me as as the as the different apps that exist in the States, the fact that it all exists in one place is brilliant. And again, useful. It's it's useful and not just this thing that it exists because in the 21st century we can make anything exist. It's useful.

SPEAKER_03

Exactly, exactly. Okay, so it sounds like you're using both quote unquote Western apps and websites and the the local apps and well we we mostly have been talking about WeChat. Are you using other apps and websites in that are Chinese specific?

SPEAKER_05

The most I use, I use WeChat, and then the second most is LMA, the food order app. That's gotten me I I had to pull back. It has gotten me in so much trouble, LMA. Um, and DD. Oh, actually, I also use like the Metro app, the Shanghai Explore Shanghai. I use some of the apps to figure out where to go and to do things to do, like smart Shanghai and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yeah. So you're using the Western apps and the Chinese apps. And and I think that's something that's super hard to convey to people is that we're kind of maneuvering between the two kind of the two internets. I've heard it called the Splinter Net recently, which I thought was brilliant. Oh, that's brilliant. Splinternet. Slightly negative, and I don't think it's negative necessarily, but it does display it does talk about the It's not a set up this idea of disparity that doesn't necessarily have to exist. Yeah, yeah. So where do you do most of your social media stuff? Is it on the Western side of the internet? It is on the Western side of the internet.

SPEAKER_05

A lot of the the Chinese apps I use are just for my day-to-day being able to navigate life. Um, but most of my audience exists still in America in the West. So um a lot of the heavy promotional stuff or even staying in constant and communication with um friends and family happens through Western apps. And Chinese apps are really just so I can navigate China. So to my day-to-day being my day-to-day life in China.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. I completely and utterly do the same exact thing. Um yeah, yeah. I would like to be on Chinese social media, but the language is it's like hard enough to learn the language, and then you've got to learn the slang, and then it's constantly changing to for various reasons. And yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05

And I just think I think I think the reality is unless you truly are committed to long-term, and I would say so long term that you have partnered with uh a local person and you have to learn the language, you have to sort of completely enmesh yourself because your husband or wife is Chinese, it's going to be in my humble opinion, almost impossible to get caught up on the skill set, the language skill set, the cultural skill set, uh, and all of the all of the unwritten and unsaid stuff that goes into both of those things. It's gonna be almost impossible to really get caught up on that as as a foreigner, no matter how immersed you are in your work life or in your social life with with local culture. It's a lot to have to play catch up on. The language alone, please.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, it's deep. The language is deep, yeah, that's for sure. So okay, so you've got the podcast, you've got the book. You were talking about strategically using social media, but I'm still not buying it, Katara. It still sounds like you're building more of a community than you're just marketing your products.

SPEAKER_05

So am I Yeah, I think you're honest within there, and I and I think part of it is, and it's funny that you you caught that that sort of slight shade I still have to walk. Social media, because I am building more of a community, because I think one of the things with the saturation of so much social media that consumers want um is this sense that they're not being thought of as consumers. They want to be a part of a group that has similar mindsets and similar values. So, yeah, I would say um, even though I haven't met people who I've who who start following me on social media who consume my products, it is this sense of I have the same value system as you. You're saying things that I think others need to hear and that I believe and I need to hear. So I want to be a part of the community. And sometimes that does end up being genuine friendships. Although I haven't really met these people in person. I think at this point, I don't even I can't, I don't even say that anymore. I haven't rather met her in real life. I think I've been able to sort of blur the line between if I haven't met this person in real life, then we're not really friends. I I think I'm at a point now where it's it seems sometimes just as authentic, sometimes even more, that if when I finally see that person in uh in when I finally see that person in real life, I'm not thinking, oh, now we have met. I'm like, oh okay, we've been met. Right, right.

SPEAKER_03

I jokingly say it's to e meet you sometimes because it's it's it's like an online electronic meet, but it does feel very real sometimes.

SPEAKER_05

Exactly. And and and sometimes in some ways, even more authentic um than if you found like you met them at some cocktail party and you had small talk and your friend was like, Oh, here's my friend. You're like, oh yeah, and then a few weeks later someone says, Oh, you remember when you met so and so? And you're kind of like, Yeah, I kind of met her, but I don't know if that counts.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting you say that because a lot of people do complain that the internet does get us into our silos and we only talk to people that are similar to us and have the same ideas, but on some level, that I think that kind of speeds up the friendships into these connections that we're talking about. Anyway, so I don't I don't know that it's a completely a bad thing that we have strong interest areas online, but I don't know. What do you what do you think? Are we too interest too interest heavy on the internet?

SPEAKER_05

Well, to be honest, I am the ripe old age of 44. And here is one thing I can say is absolutely true about being on the other side of 40. You don't have time or interest in new people, you're not trying to, you're no longer trying to figure out who you really are and what you really believe. You didn't got all that figured out. So I really don't believe that in the absence of the internet and the social media and ability to truly cocoon yourself with a bunch of progressive liberals, if you would be going out to Trump rallies, you know what I'm saying? Or even something not so extreme. I mean, I I I do think the older you get and the more you become solid and firm in who you are, and and and and to to be completely real, the friendships you have made. You're not trying to start with new people and new ideas. Look, I need to be in bed at midnight. When people invite me out to stuff and there's new people, I'm like, cool, but I have a lot of questions before I go about who's gonna be there, what's gonna happen, because it may not be worth the extra energy it takes to go to this thing. So I don't necessarily know if if people understand how humans work. Yes, there is a there is a greater danger with social media and technology to truly be isolated and to be a hermit and to not have real authentic connections. But I do think also the reality is at a certain point in in your adulthood, you you you're no longer wet cement. You are concrete at this point.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, that is so cool. Thank you for saying that. That's a really good way to put it.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, like I tell people all the time, I don't think living abroad and traveling has transformed me. It really is just made me own more of who I am, and it's made me sort of become even a much full of a fuller version of myself. I don't I didn't come abroad and start to think, oh, maybe I really want to go back to church, and maybe conservatism really is the answer. Like, no, I'm like, oh, I'm a feminist. I'm very clear that this is this is misogyny, this is white supremacy, and it all sucks, and I don't want to talk about the other side. I'm clear on that.

unknown

Yeah, it's abundantly clear.

SPEAKER_03

Do you think that moving abroad kind of cleared away the noise that made it harder to identify those things for you? Hmm.

SPEAKER_05

That's a good question. I think probably because I think Western media and the West itself, there's just especially with the current administration, there's just so much tension and so much. I don't want to trivialize what's happening because I think Americans should be frightened. Um, we're on a very important precipice in our nation's evolution. But there seems to be so much tension and hysteria about every single thing that happens. Nothing is too trivial to require a headline with 10 exclamation points and a constant retelling or reshaping of the story by different entities for whatever purpose. Um and that can make what what's really important unclear. And you can end up focusing on every single thing and thinking every single thing is another step to the sky falling when the two or three things that are, you're not really paying attention. Right.

SPEAKER_03

It's all it could be a distraction, it could be accidental. I'm not sure, but I I agree. It seems to be a bit overblown. Like everything seems to be a bit overblown.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, exactly. Like like the nation has been around for a couple hundred years, it's still very young. And again, we have seen these dark times before. They've actually been darker, depending on who you ask. Um, and like not every single thing is worthy of hysteria. Can we just focus on the two or three things that are? Because the two or three things that are are pretty friggin' frightening. Really? And let's focus on those. Yeah. And and and stop making everything so hyperbolically death and gloom and destruction.

SPEAKER_03

Yep. I could not agree with you more. But let's let's do let's do a uh comparison of what what you did online before you left New York and what you're doing online in China, or what you have been doing online in China. I know there was a shift in using Instagram, but in general, if you had to summarize your biggest change in internet-ness, and if it's not a word, it should be how would you define? I make up words all the time.

SPEAKER_05

That's what language is for, man. That is what language is for. That's your Shakespeare. You're Shakespeare.

SPEAKER_03

Shakespeare. Yes. Or something else. But yeah. So what would you say was the biggest change in your internet usage or online usage?

SPEAKER_05

I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for, if it's even on topic. I have found that I have become much more of a of a watcher of American television shows and media since moving abroad. Like I have watched Netflix more often, I have downloaded and found these free streaming sites to have access to a lot of programming that it would have never occurred to me to access or bother about back in the States. I mean, I had a TV, I had a cable. Um, and the the mere suggestion that I download a movie or or or instead of getting owned, go and get the app on my computer was just ridiculous. And I'm like, how do you watch something on a computer that's like I need a TV screen? That's just so, that's so weird. Um, and not really being that connected into pop culture. Um, and I feel like oddly enough, especially since coming to China in Rwanda, some of the things were harder to access. Um, and the internet wasn't as advanced. So just trying to get internet connection to be able to access certain streaming sites or just certain media pop culture was a bit more um challenging. But especially since coming to China, I feel like I can tell you every person on 90 day fiance. I'm I follow housewives franchises. And I also do some highbrow TV watching. I got Queen Sugar, um, I have some of those like independent movies. Like I just finished a rom-com, Always Be My Maybe, with Ali Wong and uh and and the guy from Fresh Off the Boat. And I just feel like for me, when I think about what has been the biggest shift, I again I never would have thought that my consumption and interest in pop culture in in media would be so intense. And I think when I do go back to the States, I wouldn't be surprised if all of a sudden I didn't care anymore. Like if I didn't, you know, if I didn't if I didn't really have to make sure every Sunday I caught up on all of my little ratchet reality TV as well as look at all of the new shows that people are are that are trending on these app on the on the social media is really just because what not wanting to feel left out because people talk about them and there's all these trending things, so it's not wanting to feel left out. Yeah. Um and it's my it's my way too of connecting with my friends back home who I miss dearly. I think that is more what it's about. So I won't feel like I'm I'm left behind.

SPEAKER_03

That completely and utterly answers the question. Yes, of course. Yeah, yeah. And and I relate completely. I when I first moved to Asia, I was in Taiwan and I found myself doing this. Same thing. And I didn't I usually used to have like one show that I would watch. And I found myself what like actively seeking out a lot more shows and and looking at what was popular and checking those out and keeping up with things that I didn't keep up with when I was there because when I was there, as I'm sure happened to you before in New York and it'll happen to you again, you hear it accidentally. So you don't need to keep up with it. You don't need to look for it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

It's just a lot of people.

SPEAKER_05

I also think that you see your friends and you connect with people more often, so you don't necessarily have to feel it. You have to work harder. Like it really is about, oh, everybody's talking about pose, which is an amazing show, and I'm definitely certain I will keep keep up with that when I go back. But everyone's talking about pose, it's a way to be able to have a conversation and to again just not feel left behind. When you're actually in the place, you're at work and people start talking about it. Like, okay, so whatever.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yeah. You can you can ignore it, but you know it's happening, and so you're in the know exactly.

SPEAKER_05

You don't feel left behind.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah. The water cooler's too far away from where we are standing around.

SPEAKER_05

Exactly. There are commercials about it. You're at dinner with friends, and it comes up in that way. Your students follow certain things and the lingo and a and and the slang from those shows comes up, so it's not you don't you're in it. You're in it, so you don't feel left out.

SPEAKER_03

Yep. Yeah, that makes total and complete sense. So I have a feeling I know the your answer to this last question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway because I'm a savage. Go ahead. What would you do if we had that moment where the internet just went out for good? What? Yeah, like everything connected to the internet that you get from the internet, including all the things on our phone that need the internet. What if that just went out?

SPEAKER_05

You mean in China or just the world? No, forever, everywhere.

SPEAKER_07

That is a frightening thought, right?

SPEAKER_05

I would move. I was gonna say I would leave China, but I'm like, can I leave the world? Is there another one? Another world by the internet. I had a friend, my friend, and when she said this again, because I was still trying to um pretend that I was above the internet, I was above um reliance on social media in my phone. She she made this comment, and I was like, Oh my goodness, you're such a millennial. She's 20, she's 24, 25. She made this comment. We were talking about something, and I mentioned, oh, and you know, she didn't have she doesn't have internet, so she's like, wait, what? Say that again? And I said, Oh, she doesn't have internet. And my friend was like, You mean momentarily, like her internet went out? Or she and I was like, Well, I didn't ask her that, but I know she doesn't have the internet. And my friend was like, That's a human right. That's like, can we try to go fund me? And she can't afford it. Like, why doesn't she have that's a basic human right? How can she function? And I laughed it off. And when I think about it now, it makes perfect sense because again, in the year of the pig, 2019, that is your way to find a job, that is your way to find resources and access to so many things, is no longer just this luxury convenience. Like for many people across economic spectrum, the economic spectrum, accessing internet is truly a basic human right that if you don't have some, even if you can't just go to the library, like a lot of libraries in the States, they stay open merely because for people who can't afford it in their homes, they go and use the internet for job searching, students use it for school work. Um, so it really is at this point, it's like electricity in many ways. So I don't even want to imagine. I could do without seeing apps, I could do without being able being able to stream my shows, it would suck. But I just feel like that's like asking, what if we went back to coal and we didn't heating stuff with coal? Just like, no, that's that's not gonna work in in the 21st century. That's insane.

SPEAKER_03

Do you know what shocked me is I heard a stat lately and it was on some business podcast, and don't ask me even why I was listening to a business podcast, but sometimes I listen for somebody's voice because I am that person. Um they were saying in an optimistic, isn't it, great way, that 50% of the population on earth has access to the internet. And all I heard, all I heard exactly, all I heard was 50% don't. And I just kind of stopped and went, what do you mean half of the world doesn't have any access to the internet?

SPEAKER_05

Again, and I'm it might sound like it's being a bit extreme and I'm being extra, but that is very similar to saying only half of the world ever has access to basic education. Like only half of the world has access to a primary school education.

SPEAKER_02

And I mean water, fresh air. Exactly. And I do know it feels like that, doesn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Exactly. As recently as five years ago, I would have thought that was crazy, but I I especially again being a single woman in a foreign country, I I just it it is it is more important to me in some ways than my education. And I have two degrees that has been useful for me to survive and being able to not, you know, end up lost and kidnapped or trafficked.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And so many other things too. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03

Are you doing stories now? Because I haven't started doing Instagram stories yet.

SPEAKER_05

Uh yeah, I'm still trying to figure out is that the one where, oh, you well, you will what something stays on your profile for like a for like 24 hours? I think so. And then it goes away. Uh yes, because I started doing that and I I told myself my summer project would be to figure out IGTV, how it works, so I can use that more usefully. But yeah, I have started doing stories, and it's really again, let me yeah, I want to promote this one thing, so I need to start doing it more. Yeah. So I've done it once or twice.

SPEAKER_03

Fun tip. LinkedIn is supposed to be starting like 10-minute videos any day now. So LinkedIn?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, interesting. Oh, they try they're trying to stay in business too, because I had to tell you, yeah. They they they're behind the the long curve, they need to catch up, so I'm glad.

SPEAKER_03

I'll tell you what, they're doing, you know, what Instagram did fairly recently over the past few years. LinkedIn is also coming back with a vengeance. I don't know what's happening. I don't know if it's that people got finally got too freaked out over Facebook security, but all these other older we thought were dying out social medias are coming back. Good, good for them.

SPEAKER_05

Because there need to be options. And I think not just options, but different, because one of the things I'm I'm realizing too is different personalities, different demographics and age groups, platforms appeal to them for different reasons. I think if the platforms got really took a hold of that and and exploited it, it would be very useful for them and for the groups that they're trying to attract.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, and yes. So I will see you online and super best luck of you in your move. When do you move back? And like I I move back in two days. Oh my god, you have no idea how thankful I am that you seriously made your time today. Two days? I would be a chicken with my head cut off if I were you right now.

SPEAKER_05

I kind of am, but still I am. But I'm still able to put together a clean up well, you know. You do. You so do. I'm a teacher, so I can perform with the best of them.

SPEAKER_03

Oh my goodness. Well, I really, really appreciate in the midst of moving back to New York City, you taking the time to talk to us today about your birthday.

SPEAKER_05

Yes, it was it was so fun talking to you. You're a very, very good host.

SPEAKER_03

Makes me made me feel very comfortable and cozy. You're so sweet. I'm keeping that in there. I'm not removing that. I like it.

SPEAKER_05

You should keep all positive comments. Just keep it and do it. Put it on on constant loop.

SPEAKER_03

I think I might. My husband would be like, Are you playing that again? Yes, I'm like, yes. Do you want to hear it? Seriously, I wish you so much. I don't even need to wish you success and happiness because I just know that it's it's happening. It's just you're there.

SPEAKER_06

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_05

I appreciate that. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03

And I'll keep I'll be keeping tabs of you on IG.

SPEAKER_05

Of course, because now you know it's I'm a regular now. I'm I'm a little guru. You are, you are no longer reluctant. I'm not a reluctant IG user anymore. My students will be so proud of me.

SPEAKER_03

They will. So I don't think it's I don't know that it's completely wow, somebody just threw their dinner out the window. Sorry. That was interesting.

SPEAKER_05

Well, that is definitely a commentary on whoever the chef was. Okay.

SPEAKER_03

Thank you to our guest, Kutora Kendrick, for sharing her virtual story with us. Kotura is in the middle of her book tour right now, so hey, go to her Instagram and check out all of the wonderful pictures of her meeting the people that have read her book or the people that enjoy her readings of the passages from the book as she's reading them during those meetings. She really is a truly inspiring inspiring person, and I'm so glad that more and more people are meeting her either in paper form through her book or in person at those book readings. For more Geopath podcast episodes, including the other shows that we have, the bookish ones, the language ones, the podcasting ones, all of the shows that we're incorporating in this beautifully messy Geopaths podcast. Go to geopaths.podbean.com, or you can just really type in Geopaths into your Podbean app. We should pop up everywhere. If we don't pop up where you listen to podcasts, please email me at stefbuccio at gmail.com and I will get us in there. Thank you so much. And as promised, here is Damon Castillo and his band with the song Sometime Guy.

SPEAKER_01

I've been wasting all of my time Standing at the back of your eye. Trying not to lose my mind when all I'll ever be is your sometime. I've been waiting for my moment. I've been howling at the moon. I've been living with this moment. Cause there's nothing else my heart can do. Well I've been wasting all of my time Standing at the back of your life. Trying not to lose my mind. All I'll ever be is you're sometime guy, you're sometime guy. Oh yeah, yeah, you're sometime guy. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Will I put my foot down like the man I am? You stream make me dance. I can't believe the shape you got me. All these thoughts could drop me back. Well I've been wasting all of my time Standin' at the back of your life And trying not to lose my mind with all I'll ever be. Yes, you're sometime black, you're sometimes like you're sometimes bright, along something Oh if they want me something something coming back to you wasting all of my time standing at the back with your eye trying back to my eye When all I've ever been here's your sometime Oh I'll never be some time Oh I'll ever be some time Membership fees apply after free trial cancel anytime.

SPEAKER_00

You know what's wrong with health and fitness? You weaponize it against yourself. Why didn't you go to the gym today? You're so lazy. Ah, why did you eat that? You have no self-control. Stop it. At Beachbody, we think training and caring for your body in a way that works best for you should be about loving yourself. Let us help you without all the judgment. Here's how. Go to Beachbody.com to claim your free membership and start feeling great.