SPEAKER_03

When I feel a little bit unmotivated, when I'm just procrastinating, I just go back to my Instagram feed and just look at all of the work I've done the past few weeks. And I just said to myself, okay, you have to go back to studying now and share some more. If you are at any age and any subject, languages, mathematics, and everything, using your social media to share with others, but also to yourself what you have done is extremely motivating.

SPEAKER_02

Welcome to the Changing Scripts Podcast, where we hear language learning stories from people all over the world. Right now we are focusing on Mandarin Chinese, but we'll be expanding out to other languages in the future. The host of this podcast is Stephanie Fuccio, and she was an English language instructor for about 15 years, mostly in Asia. She is also, as she would put it, very slowly learning how to read Mandarin Chinese, I'm sure she's not learning it that slowly, while living in Shanghai, China. My name is Ophelia, and I am the host of the Opheliavert YouTube channel, where I make videos about language learning mostly, and currently about moving to the Netherlands. Steph and I met on YouTube, in fact, uh, which is where the Changing Scripts project started, but in a slightly different form. The YouTube channel is where she documents her personal language learning journey, whereas this podcast was where she chats with others about their language learning stories. In this podcast episode, Steph talks with Tom Clemel, Tom Reads on Instagram, a French university student who is studying Sinology in graduate school. In fact, he admits to not liking learning languages until he started learning Chinese in the last two years of high school. What is it about the language that pulled him in and kept his attention? I'm afraid for that he will have to listen to his language learning story for the details of him studying Mandarin Chinese, both in Europe as well as in Asia. What I can tell you is that he is a very talented photographer with, as the kids would say, a very aesthetic Instagram feed. And what Tom puts out into the world about his studies and about his reading experiences outside of academic text is thoughtful, relevant, and shared from a place of heartfelt enjoyment. If you have any comments or questions about this episode, please feel free to contact Stephanie on any social media platform, Def Fuccio, S-T-E-P-H, F U C C I O. Def Fuccio. Also, you can contact me if you would like to at Devonirpolyglot D-E-V-E-N-I-R-P-O-L-Y-G-L-O-T on Twitter or Devonir Polyglot with an extra T and an E because I had more space on Instagram to spell it correctly. If you would so wish. Let's meet Tom and find out about his language learning story.

SPEAKER_08

Well, thank you so much, Tom, for joining us today on Changing Scripts.

SPEAKER_03

Thank you, and I'm so happy to be here.

SPEAKER_08

Can you give our listeners a little bit of you, how many languages you've learned so far in your life?

SPEAKER_03

So far, so I'm a French native speaker, so I basically learned French from the day I was born. Then I started with my second language was actually Spanish because my mother is half Spanish, so meaning my grandmother is fully Spanish. And then I studied English at school at a very early age. But I think I studied English more on my own than in school actually. And then I started at high school with Chinese, and then on my own with Korean, Japanese, and Russian a little bit.

SPEAKER_08

Oh my god, I didn't realize there were that many in your language tool belt. Holy cow!

SPEAKER_03

I absolutely love languages.

SPEAKER_08

Wait, wait, so I lost track here. We've got French, Spanish, Chinese, Korean, Japanese, and I think I missed one.

SPEAKER_03

Russian, just basics. For Korean, Japanese, and Russian is just like very beginning stuff.

SPEAKER_08

Wow. All right. So let's back up to your first language. I like digging into people's heads what they remember from learning their first language. So do you have any memories of learning French as a kid?

SPEAKER_03

I do have some. I remember that it was kind of painful, especially for the how can I say that, for the grammar, because in French you have every word is either feminine or masculine, and it just messed up in my head all the time. And you have to do a lot of thinking before even talking. You have to think how I conjugate this and how I conjugate that. So it was just a very painful process. In the end, it just because it's my mother tongue, I hear it all the time. My parents talk to me, so it was kind of easy, but kind of painful. And still nowadays I do like a lot of mistakes when I write.

SPEAKER_08

See, as someone coming from English, a lot of us think that the genders on the nouns for you guys come easily. So it's kind of reassuring to hear that it doesn't.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I have some friends studying French and they tell me, like, how did you learn that? I mean, it's just like kind of natural because I have to, it's my mother tongue, so I don't have all of the questions in my head, it's just normal and just the way the things are. So I just wish them uh huge good luck because I know kind of a struggle.

SPEAKER_08

It's hard. Okay, let's stay chronological. So let's stay with French for a little bit. When you were a kid, did you like reading more than writing or speaking more? Like, was there a part of the language you enjoyed at all?

SPEAKER_03

I think I've always preferred reading. Like I'm a huge reader even nowadays. Yeah. So I really like reading, but I also really like listening. Yeah, pretty much all of the reading, listening, and talking to. I mean, I'm a huge talker, if I can say that this way.

SPEAKER_07

Thank goodness.

SPEAKER_03

And I think French language is actually very beautiful. So I'm kind of happy to be able to be fluent in this language.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah, I think a lot of people agree with you. I'm one of them. French is beautiful to listen to. French rap, funny enough, is really beautiful. I don't listen to rap music, so I couldn't even name anybody anymore, but I I used to listen to just a little bit. I can't even name anything. I just think, wow, rap music is so harsh, but when you put French in there, it sounds so much more delicate.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I think it's pretty true actually. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah. So what did you read as a kid? Do you remember what kind of books you read?

SPEAKER_03

I think I've read a lot of stuff. I mean, when I was really young, I was really into witch things, like Happy Witch, Funny Witch, and it is like a whole series in French. So I really like that.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And pretty much everything, like I think all of the things that all around the world people are reading, but translating in French, obviously. So yeah.

SPEAKER_08

Okay. Do you remember learning French at school? Like what the French classes were like?

SPEAKER_03

Yes, I kind of remember when I was really young. I think you call it elementary school, like I was very, very young. And I remember our teacher put like everything on the wall on the blackboard. And we learned the week name, like Monday, Tuesday, and it has like a lot of colors. And I think that's why right now I think my memory is more visual because at a very early age, I just remember the colors, the words, how they look, and stuff like that. So I think it really helped shape my memory in a way. Like right now, I'm more a visual learner for sure.

SPEAKER_08

I remember something similar in elementary school or primary school, but I remember the sounds. Like I remember they would have like a specific sound with the word underneath it, and we had those plastered all around the room.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, you have to stick on the wall. You have just like very interactive to learn. That was amazing.

SPEAKER_08

I mean, I wish that we would do that more with adults, actually. For me, for as an adult learner, I wish there was more of that. So, did you say your mom was from Spain?

SPEAKER_03

Uh no, my mom is uh was born in France, but her mother is fully Spanish.

SPEAKER_08

Oh, okay. So was your mom speaking Spanish to people in in the home or to you in the home?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I think at the beginning, yes, but I have a sister and she talked to my sister half French, half Spanish. So my sister is actually bilingual in both of the languages. But with me, for some reason, I still ask her why she didn't do that to me because she didn't. I just had to learn Spanish kind of on my own with my family, and it's not very fluent, but I can still understand speak, but it's not very fluent, you know.

SPEAKER_08

And this is your older sister?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, older sister.

SPEAKER_08

Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, my parents are Italian, but there's my older brother, older sister, and me, and none of us speak Italian. Although I can understand some angry words, shall we say? But yeah, I can't really speak anything. And your father's fully French. Fully French, 100%. Okay. Let's talk about this multitude of other languages that you have. Holy cow. Spanish, Chinese, Korean, Japanese, and Russian. Did you study Spanish in school?

SPEAKER_03

I did at the age of 13 or 14 to the end of high school, so I was probably 18, something like that.

SPEAKER_08

Did you enjoy learning languages at that point?

SPEAKER_03

No, actually no. I actually really hated it because I don't really think in France teaching languages and learning languages at school, we don't have like a good method and a way to do it. So I didn't really like that.

SPEAKER_08

What was the method? How did they teach you guys?

SPEAKER_03

The method is just like you have a book, you don't, I mean, first of all, the teacher has horrible accents, so it's all French accents. So I was like, okay, for me it wasn't real, really a foreign language. It was just a French language, something different. And then we just use books and we just repeat, repeat, repeat with a horrible accent, with no correction, and we just kind of on our own. And I think probably it's personal because of my teacher, I'm sure there is like incredible teachers of the places. But mine, unfortunately, didn't convey the passion for language and why we should learn languages. So I didn't have like this first step of wow, languages are amazing, you have to study them. I didn't have the why and how kind of thing.

SPEAKER_08

Oh, that's a really good way to put it, the why and how. Let's break from the timeline for a moment. When did that passion for languages hit you? Because it clearly did at some point.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it did at the end of my high school years, I was probably 17. And it is basically because, or thanks to my English teacher, she understood that I was a very, I had a very struggle learning English. I made like a lot of mistakes, but she kind of gave me her passion for English. And from time to time, because I had this teacher, because in France, high school is in three years, and I had her for the two last ones. And so I just really felt in love with a way of teaching, of giving me tips, and how can I improve because that's what I'm here for. And at that point, I realized that oh my god, I'm currently improving my English, languages are so fun, you can meet new people, and I just fell in love with all of this. So I was like a brand new world opened to me. I was like, okay, languages is definitely for me.

SPEAKER_08

That's really, really cool. What kind of methods was she doing that was different?

SPEAKER_03

I think it was because the normal uh method that I just taught you before, but because I was kind of more interested, because I knew she was passionated about her work. I just after classes, I always went to her, like, how can I improve that? She gave me online resources, tips to watch TV shows and what things that I could like. And I think that's how I kind of started to learn more on my own, actually.

SPEAKER_08

Wow, okay, that's really cool. Let's go back to 13. So you started studying Spanish at 13. When did you start learning Chinese?

SPEAKER_03

Chinese was my first year of high school.

SPEAKER_08

Okay, so what year is that in France? Is that 14, 15?

SPEAKER_03

Yes, yeah, 14, 15. Probably 15.

SPEAKER_08

15 years old. Why did you pick Chinese?

SPEAKER_03

I actually wanted to pick Japanese, but in my city we don't have anything to learn Japanese. So I went to see there is like a big week in France where you can visit high schools and stuff to see where to actually go. And we just with my parents came up on this and they said, uh, my mother said, Oh, they have like a Chinese course. I was like, Oh, let's see. So we just talked with uh Chinese teachers, and we just like, okay, that's it. I have to do Chinese because I didn't know any Chinese beforehand, and I was like, that could be pretty cool. I mean, so I just started started learning at it and just felt in love like within two weeks.

SPEAKER_08

Wow. Okay, what part of it did you like?

SPEAKER_03

I really like how different it was from French and English and Spanish because that was the only languages I knew. Yeah, and yeah, felt in love with the characters, the way it is written, the way you speak, and it's just fascinating to learn an Asian language being an European. It was like amazing. And at that time, there is still, I think, around the world that Chinese is just so hard, it is an amazing uh language, you have to learn Chinese, and it just pushed me to continue it.

SPEAKER_08

I think people still think that, and I'm not sure they're completely wrong. It is it is a little hard to learn.

SPEAKER_03

And you know what? With taking in consideration all the languages we've learned so far, I think Chinese was so far the easiest for me to actually learn.

SPEAKER_08

Okay, interview done. Are you kidding me?

SPEAKER_03

Because if you compare to French, it is just so easy. Yeah. You know, there is like no tense, you know, there is no genders. It's just you learn the vocabulary and you're done.

SPEAKER_08

Tones, no spaces between words, time being in weird places in the sentence. I'm just trying to think. Really? Even easier than Russian.

SPEAKER_03

Russian had just started like one year ago, so I think Russian could be harder than Chinese.

SPEAKER_08

Oh, okay. Okay, okay, okay. Wow. That's amazing. It's interesting you said that because I came to the realization recently, very, very recently, that I think the reason I've stuck with Mandarin Chinese and I didn't with Spanish or Italian is because it's so different that I don't confuse it with English. So interesting, interesting.

SPEAKER_07

Wow.

SPEAKER_08

Okay, you were taking classes in Chinese. What were the classes like?

SPEAKER_03

Amazing. And I think it's because of my teachers that I'm still doing, like I'm currently doing a master's degree in Chinese studies, and that's why from this class I never stopped learning Chinese. And it was very interactive, very interesting because we didn't only learn about Chinese language, with uh we learn about Chinese culture, language, people, history, and it is just fascinating because so far I've never heard about this in a much informative way. So it was just fascinating, and the teachers were really right.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah. Were your your Chinese teachers, were they from China? Were they quote unquote native Chinese speakers?

SPEAKER_03

No, they were both French. The first one was French, but she lived in China for about 20 years. So for me, it was basically she sounded Chinese to me. And the second one, she lived in Taiwan for about five years. So I had the chance to see the kind of a difference between China and Taiwan at very early stage of my Chinese learning.

SPEAKER_08

Ooh, dig into those differences. What differences did you notice between the two speakers?

SPEAKER_03

I think I noticed more when I lived in Taiwan because I think it's the way they pronounce things. In Taiwan, it's more like a kind of language, but in China, I mean in Beijing, it's more like a shu shu shu kind of language. I don't know if you I think you understand that.

SPEAKER_08

I do. I I didn't realize that you lived in Taiwan. I actually lived in Tainan in 2003 for a year. Where did you live?

SPEAKER_03

I live in Kaohsiung.

SPEAKER_08

Oh my god, that's right next to Tainan. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08

What year were you there?

SPEAKER_03

I was in 2014.

SPEAKER_08

Oh, yeah, that's a long time after.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I just went there for an ex-gen student for you.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah. No, a lot of people go to like Gaoshang and Tainan and stuff because it it's traditional Chinese, so oh my gosh. So you started learning with traditional?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and at that time I didn't know the difference between Chinese and traditional. So I just before like two weeks ago, before going to Taiwan, my teacher told me, like, oh, and you have to be careful for the Chinese characters. I was like, why? And she just showed me the difference. I was like, oh my god, what am I doing?

SPEAKER_08

But you started with the harder one, so it was easier for you to see the simplified one.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But after coming back to France doing my bachelor's degree in Chinese, I had to switch back to uh simplified Chinese, so my brain was just so messed up because that's something Yeah, just so messed up.

SPEAKER_08

Wow, okay, wait, wait, wait. Let's go back to this. So when you started learning Chinese at 15 years old in school, were you learning traditional or simplified Chinese?

SPEAKER_03

Simplified Chinese.

SPEAKER_08

Simplified. And so, but when you went to Gaosheng in Taiwan, you were doing traditional.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, only traditional.

SPEAKER_08

Only traditional. And then you came back to France and we're still doing simplified.

SPEAKER_07

Yes.

SPEAKER_08

I'm wondering how much we should explain this to the listeners. See, I have about 700 words that I know, depending on the No, it's not, but thank you for saying that. But so for me, it doesn't feel like that big of a difference from the simplified to the traditional. But your vocabulary in Chinese is way above mine. So did it feel like a big difference when you went to Taiwan and saw the traditional?

SPEAKER_03

At first, not really, because when I moved to Taiwan, I just knew about 400 words. Because that's what I had to learn for my baccalaureate, like the exam we had in France.

SPEAKER_07

Really?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I just knew this amount of words. So I just learned more. Uh learning the new ones was more easy to learn to relearn the ones I already knew.

SPEAKER_08

Right. Yeah, just for the listeners, there isn't an alphabet. There are 214 radicals that make up the words. So and they can be combined, and sometimes it makes sense, and sometimes it looks like they make sense, but yeah. Sometimes it does not. I'm convinced the word for bath, like to take a bath.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, I I don't remember.

SPEAKER_08

I've just finally I took like an accidental two-month break off, and now half my vocabulary is and mine is just more technical since I'm more doing like classical Chinese. Just like Oh, here it is, here it is, here it is.

SPEAKER_06

Is it yeah?

SPEAKER_08

I'm convinced this looks like somebody sitting in a bathtub.

SPEAKER_07

Like Yeah, now that you say that.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah, I know it isn't. For in my brain, that looks like somebody sitting in a bathtub. D-A-O in the third tone. So if you look that up in Pleco, you can see what I'm talking about. But anyway, okay, so you went from simplified to traditional and back.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And then I kind of went back to traditional because of classical Chinese. So it's just like move again and again and again.

SPEAKER_08

Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. But you mentioned a slight sound difference between mainland Chinese and I don't want to say Taiwanese Chinese because there's also Taiwanese the language. Yeah. Other than that, difference between the and the ts, whatever you just said a few minutes ago, were there any big differences in how they used the language?

SPEAKER_03

I think no, probably for some vocabulary. Like sometimes things you say in Chinese, in China, you can't say in Taiwan and either way, so I had to learn a new way to express myself for some basic things that I sure knew. I was like, okay, I know Chinese, I will be great. But when you go there, you start talking Chinese, like in mainland China, they just don't understand you. So it's just a few things, but sometimes the few things are the most important ones. So you end up like have to learn new things.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah. Do you remember any examples of that?

SPEAKER_03

Like you're welcome in Chinese, in mainland China, it would be bu ko chi.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

But in Taiwan, they never said that. You just say buh. It's like the ability to do bu hue buh.

SPEAKER_08

Oh, like don't need to.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, oh, few things like that.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah. Oh, okay, okay. So it's not different words for the same word, it's actually a different expression used for that same thing.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it's more like different expressions to say things.

SPEAKER_08

Same language. Sure, sure it is. Did they speak Taiwanese down in Gaosheng?

SPEAKER_03

No, my friends down there uh just teach me a few words, but only a few words because I had to concentrate on Chinese.

SPEAKER_08

Oh yeah. From what I remember in Tainan, which there was a lot of Taiwanese speakers at the time, 2003, so this is a long time ago. There were seven tones and it didn't have a written language, I think. Yeah. That's just insane. Five tones aren't enough. Let's add two more.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and I remember like in Cantonese, they have nine tones of probably ten that I remember. So Cantonese, not right now.

SPEAKER_08

It's just too much, it's too much. People, yeah, people say, Oh, there's a lot of you can hear a lot of Chinese in Vietnamese, but again, a different tonal language. I'll be happy once I get one under my belt. Okay, so I've said it before and I'll say it again. There's a lot of language learning content creators on YouTube, but not enough of them in the podcasting space. And by language learning, I don't mean language teaching, I mean actual language learners sharing their process as they learn a language. Cam, host of Mandarin by Mistake, is helping to fill that gap. And we're very excited to have him. So here's Cam telling you about his podcast.

SPEAKER_00

Hi, my name's Cameron, and I'm a language learner. Sometimes I feel we could use an anonymous support group where we could get together and share the problems that come when learning a language. That's why I started my podcast, Mandarin by Mistake. Where I talk about my experiences in teaching myself Mandarin Chinese. So you get to hear the good, the bad, and the definitely ugly side of my language learning experience. If you'd like to join in on the therapy, head on over to my Instagram page, which is Mandarin.by.mistake, or just search Mandarin by mistake on Pop in Rye Tunes. I look forward to speaking to you soon.

SPEAKER_08

Okay, I don't have a favorite episode of Mandarin by mistake because they're all just thinking good. Uh what I can tell you to do to start listening to his podcast is to start at the latest one, which is a very resource-heavy one, but will give you a sense of how he describes the things that he uses to learn Mandarin Chinese. It'll also give you a sense of my favorite feature in his podcast, which is his mistake of the week. I think that is a brilliant thing to reinforce in language learners' brains that the whole point is to make mistakes, because by the mistake, you're going to actually learn how to use the language. And I think that is absolutely, positively brilliant. So, uh, Mandarin by mistake is Cam's podcast name. I strongly suggest you check it out. Thank you. Let's get back to Tom, another language learning content creator. Wait, so your master's now is in Chinese studies. Are your classes in Chinese?

SPEAKER_03

Half of them is in Chinese and half of them are in French. Because I'm doing like kind of a translation path, so I have to translate in French and sometimes in English.

SPEAKER_08

So wow. And what is Chinese studies, what does that mean? Are you studying like Chinese history, Chinese language, or I think it depends.

SPEAKER_03

Like first, the bachelor degree in Chinese studies that I did, I had language classes, history and literature, and some civilization. And when you move to master's degree, you kind of have the opportunity to choose different paths. So I decided to do translation because in my head, translation, you will have to learn more vocabulary, know very like kind of be an expert of the Chinese language, and that's my goal to do, to be. And I here in my master's degree, I only have uh Chinese classes, but it's not like you have a textbook and stuff, it's just more about press articles and in this domain, and I have a lot of translation classes, and I have three. The first one being classical and ancient Chinese, the second one is pre-modern Chinese, and the third one is uh modern and contemporary Chinese literature.

SPEAKER_08

Do you want to be a translator in the future, like for a job? No. Oh, oh wait, then why are you taking this route?

SPEAKER_03

Because yeah, and people keep asking me this, and I think because I had some friends doing kind of the same thing in Paris, but they don't do the translation path. And we just compare our classes, and I think I'm learning more Chinese with them, and that's what I wanted to do. So I'm kind of happy that I've done this. But it's harder, but it's better to learn.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah, no, I I totally get that. I very much so get that. That's part of the reason I'm taking the HSK test, is because it's a lot of vocabulary. Yeah, so I'm I don't necessarily need the tests. I've never picked up my certificates, but I want that vocabulary in my head. Okay, let's go back to 15. So when you were taking Chinese classes for the first time, how did you study outside of the classroom? Did you use flashcards? Did you write the characters a lot? How did you study?

SPEAKER_03

I wrote the characters a lot, like always, always, always.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

But again, I think my memory at that time was very visual. So I just had to look at the Chinese word. And even nowadays, I just have to look a good two minutes, and I it's just stuck in my head like forever.

SPEAKER_08

Wow. The first time you look at it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_08

Wow. You really did pick the right language to learn.

SPEAKER_03

Wow. Really did.

SPEAKER_08

Does it look like the meaning to you? Is that why it sticks?

SPEAKER_03

I don't remember, no. I just because it's the same thing in English or in French. I just have to look at the words. If I'm learning something new, I just have to read, and it's just stuck in my memory.

SPEAKER_08

Oh, okay. When you're looking at the words the first time, are they in a sentence or is it just the word by itself?

SPEAKER_03

They were in easy sentences. So we have this textbook, we have the vocabulary lists, and then next to them we have like very easy sentences, like no more than 10 characters with easy vocabulary again.

SPEAKER_06

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

And it's just the way to use them and to see how to use them.

SPEAKER_08

Gotcha. So they were in a sentence. Were there any things you remember being difficult about learning Chinese when you first started?

SPEAKER_03

Definitely the tones and the way to pronounce things for Chinese learners, it is, I think, very important to go abroad and to just speak, speak, speak.

SPEAKER_08

Now, in a lot of beginning Mandarin Chinese classes, they spend a lot of time on individual tones and syllables, but not necessarily words or sentences. Now that you're very fluent in the language, do you think that's a useful thing to do, or do you think they should just start with sentences?

SPEAKER_03

I think starting with sentences is more probably a more useful way concerning Chinese. Because I remember that time when I went to Taiwan, I only knew a lot of words, but sometimes I didn't know how to use them. So I was just shouting words from time to time, trying to understand me. So I think basic, you don't have to learn crazy long, difficult sentences, but just a way to use the words you already know. It will just build your language more fluently, I think.

SPEAKER_08

I agree. I have some words at my disposal right now, but I can't put them together too much. I mean, I have a couple of sentences that I use, but most of them are just words. So I find myself talking like a two-year-old, like I want, or this here, now, left, right, that kind of thing still. And I'm like, yeah, I probably should get a few sentences. I can read sentences, but I can't remember how to say them yet. So we can't.

SPEAKER_03

We definitely can't.

SPEAKER_08

Oh, and part of that is me wanting it to come. I'm so not inspired to speak because I know how difficult it is, and I know what's going to come back at me is more language I can't understand, and that's really frustrating to me. Whereas with the book, it's just me and the book, and I can circle it, I can look in my dictionary, I could go slow. Yeah, but speaking is so fast.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I totally understand being like just you and the book, because when I'm doing translation in my apartment, I just have my dictionary, I have my computer, I can't take my time. But when I'm doing this in class with the teacher, I have to be like on time all the time and just I have to know everything they ask me. So that's just more challenging.

SPEAKER_08

Oh, that is challenging. I interviewed a Chinese woman who's a simultaneous translator, and so she's going to like these government conferences and all of these things and translating. And she said she's done it so long now that she's trying to get the style of the speaker, not just the meaning of the word. Can you imagine? I know, and I was like, I didn't even realize that was something that translators thought about. I was just like, get the meaning out, get the meaning out, but she's just she wants the personality of the person, just as a challenge for her, because the content's not interesting for her necessarily.

SPEAKER_03

I always found these kind of people fascinating because they can translate in just like a second, and it's just mind-blowing.

SPEAKER_08

Me too. It just any translation is amazing to me, and simultaneous translation where you can't skip a beat is just amazing, absolutely amazing. So you it sounds like you've never you're not a flashcard person. Is that true?

SPEAKER_03

I'm starting to be actually. I never was, but right now I'm kind of using them and just write them down. And I think it's just because I've came to the conclusion that I've been learning Chinese for about seven or eight years now.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

But I want to, how can I say that, feeling motivated again, finding new way of learning and just try to see the more enjoyable things because I'm learning way more difficult things right now. So I have to kind of understand how I can make this whole process more fun.

SPEAKER_08

Well, are you using like an app like Anki or using paper?

SPEAKER_03

Yes, I'm using Anki uh on my iPad. Sometimes when I just want to write down and stuff, I just take a paper and write them on it. Depends on my mood.

SPEAKER_08

Oh, I hear you. Korean, Japanese, and Russian, when did those come in?

SPEAKER_03

Uh the Korean and Japanese came right after the Chinese because I've always been fascinated with Asia and I was fascinated with Japan, so I wanted, okay, I have to start Japanese. And then Korean just came along the way. Like, I mean, I know a lot of people who study Korean, they are started to learn uh Chinese and Japanese, and it's just like always the kind of the free language that if you speak English, at some point you will start learning another one.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah, that's what I've heard. That's what I've heard. I heard that Koreans use Chinese words when they need to be more specific.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, they are called the hancha.

SPEAKER_08

It makes me laugh because a lot of Chinese words are very vague.

SPEAKER_03

Yes.

SPEAKER_08

So thought of using them to be specific is funny to me.

SPEAKER_03

And it's interesting to see that Chinese characters are also in Japanese, in Korean. So if you start with Chinese, you kind of have it's a bit easier not to understand because sometimes it doesn't have like the same meaning, but just the way to remember characters.

SPEAKER_06

Oh, yeah, it's easier.

SPEAKER_03

Because I have some friends doing Japanese studies, yeah, and they always tell me that the kanji, the Chinese characters, are horrible to learn. And I was like, it's easy. It would be easy to do.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah, because Japanese has what three scripts, and the hardest one are the Chinese characters, and they use the traditional ones, which you're already very familiar with. So yeah, so that makes sense. Are you conversational in Japanese at this point?

SPEAKER_03

No, definitely not. The Korean Japanese is just like for right now, it's just more for fun, just talking on myself and be able to read a few sentences. It's just very beginning style because I have to focus on my Chinese studies.

SPEAKER_08

Well, yeah, here I go.

SPEAKER_03

But I'm using other languages actually to take some breaks from Chinese to take my mind off.

SPEAKER_08

Just wow, wow, wow. I've heard of that. I just stop learning languages when I take a break from languages. I hope someday to be at your point. So wait, you were in Taiwan for was that one year?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, one year.

SPEAKER_08

Okay. Have you lived in mainland China?

SPEAKER_03

No, I just went there with my high school for two weeks as a high school trip with my teacher and classmates.

SPEAKER_08

Okay. Where'd you guys go?

SPEAKER_03

We went one week in Chongqing and the second week in Beijing.

SPEAKER_08

What? The country is so big. Those are the only two places for two weeks?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, because we really wanted to, because in these cities we just did like a lot of things, just very touristic things.

SPEAKER_08

It makes sense to spend that much time in Beijing. There's so much historical stuff up there. Definitely. So have you taken any of the HSK tests?

SPEAKER_03

Yes, I did. I did three years ago. I did the HSK four, but I wanted to take the five also. But the inference for some reason the four and the five were at the exact same time. So you either take one or the other. And I was like, okay. So for security, because at that time I didn't know kind of my level, so I just took the level four that I succeed in getting it. But so far I never took it again. But right now, my teachers want me to pass the HSK six at the end of the year. So I was like, we will see.

SPEAKER_08

Oh my gosh. At the end of this year?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, in the end of 2019. But I think they said that in a way that at the beginning of 2020, the HSK would take place. So I think it would be more at the beginning of 2020.

SPEAKER_08

Gotcha. And you're taking classes and studying and translating. You're probably very ready for HSK 6.

SPEAKER_03

Probably. I I don't know. We will see. But it just takes a lot of time because, as you said, I have my classes, I have the HSK to learn on myself, and I also have a thesis to write. So it's just everything together. I just have to study every time.

SPEAKER_08

No, that's true. That's true. That's true. Just for the listeners, HSK 6 is the last level. There's only six levels to the HSK Chinese language test now. So once you take that, you're done.

SPEAKER_07

You're just good to go.

SPEAKER_08

You're so good to go. You can figure everything else out from there. Oh my gosh. And are you going to take the computer test or the paper test?

SPEAKER_03

I think in my university we can take the both, actually. We can choose, but I'm not sure I will have to, because I changed university between my bachelor and masters, so I have to.

SPEAKER_08

For the HSK 4, did you take the paper one?

SPEAKER_03

I took the paper one, yes.

SPEAKER_08

Okay. That's brave. Wow, you did write the characters a lot. Because for the writing for HSK 3, it's a word. So it's not that big of a deal. But for HSK 4, 5, and 6, you have to write entire essays, don't you?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, uh for the HSK 4, it wasn't like a big essay. It was sort of for several sections of the test, you have to write down sentences, sometimes three to four, and make a good sentence to see if you can use the grammar punts and stuff like that.

unknown

Sure.

SPEAKER_03

But it was kind of it was easy, but it's just like the time. You you have to think the pressure of the tests. Yeah. And because you have the audio going on, you have to just keep going. Just have to, yeah, keep going.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah. Oh my gosh. And they apparently are very strict with the script. Like you have to write very neatly on top of everything. Yes. And in the right stroke order.

SPEAKER_07

Yes.

SPEAKER_08

Wow, I'm even more impressed than five minutes ago. That's so crazy. Wow, wow.

SPEAKER_03

But I think personally that the HSK test is not uh really showing your actual level.

SPEAKER_06

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Because I have some friends who told me like you just have to learn the vocabulary and you can guess. Because the guessing game in the HSK, it's very sometimes it doesn't make sense. Like if you have a sentence and you have four answers about plants and you have two about animals, you know you can just check these out. It just more like a strategy test for me than an actual knowing Chinese test.

SPEAKER_08

I can only speak about one, two, and three. Well, because HSK and HSKK are different tests. The HSK is the writing, reading, and listening. And then the HSK is the speaking test, and it's a completely different test. So yeah, the HSK doesn't at all tell you how you can use the language verbally. So that in and of itself. I think HSK is more like you can recognize the words.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, I think that's the main thing. Like you know all the words and you can guess. And even if you don't know like half of them, you can guess the one you know and just try to guess the other ones.

SPEAKER_08

Definitely.

SPEAKER_03

It's more like a game rather than a test.

SPEAKER_08

I think we're probably selling it a little bit short. I'm I it's probably a little bit of language learning and a lot of stress.

SPEAKER_07

Yes.

SPEAKER_08

Because honestly, if you walked into even HSK one, no, because one and two still use pinion. But if you walked into HSK three not knowing any part of the language, I don't think guessing would get you very far.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, you have to learn at least some vocabulary too.

SPEAKER_08

So it's it's a little bit of learning and a little bit of strategy and a little bit of the people around you not being too loud.

SPEAKER_07

Definitely.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah. Are you a language learner that lives outside your passport country? And you want to join us in the language learning podcasting area, podcasting space. We want you. We very much so want you. And I have two things that I'm willing to offer you to help you get started. One is a free month on Podbeam. Go to Podbeam.com forward slash virtual expats. Don't forget the apps. You'll get a free month. You can experiment with the service. You can even try podcasting from your phone, which you can do now with Podbeam. And you can see how responsive their customer service is. Because I can tell you all the good things that have happened to me when I've contacted Podbeam, but honestly, you need some hands-on experience with it in order to understand what a fantastic podcast host they are. The second thing is I'm going to be doing my first uh uh beginning expat podcasters workshop in September. The first one will be once. In September, it will be maximum four people and myself in a room on Zoom Cloud recording, and I'm going to share with you the things that I have found out in the past two and a half years while podcasting outside my home country. Why am I emphasizing the egg part of this? Because there are things you need to think about and there are things you need to set up in your quote unquote branding of your site. And um and they're different than if you're just at home podcasting. So those are things I definitely want to share with you that I don't think you can find in many other places. I'll also be sharing some basic resources and getting set up with your uh good mics like your Samsung QTU that I'm using right now, Focus Right Mixer, which you probably don't need when you're first starting, your basic setup with your computer, what software to use, where to host, how to plan out your content, how to plan in your breaks, which is a very important thing, believe it or not. Especially when you're an expat and you have a little more movement geographically than a lot of folks do. Because you're not only going home, probably pretty often, but you're going to different countries to explore the region that you're in. So yeah. Let's think about that. So there's a lot of things you need to think about, and a lot of things you need to plan, and a lot of resources that you need to find, but you don't need to. I have found them, and I want to share them with you. Go to HereShare, H-G-A-R-S-H-A-R-E.weebly.com. That is our new website name. And you will see the sign-up sheet for the first ever beginning expat podcasters workshop. It's very much so a resource dump. It is a one-time, two-hour experience. And of course I'll be available afterwards if you have any questions, but I mostly just want to get you uh going in the right direction and give you lots of resources so you can start your expat podcasting experience with your process language podcast. I would really, really like to hear what language you're learning, how you're doing it, and the ups and downs of that experience. And I know others would too. And hey, once you get going, you get a few episodes in, we could have your promo here on a changing script show on the Geopots podcast. That would be lovely. Oh my gosh. So you have a lot of languages that you've been exposed to. When you're studying one actively, do you lose any of the other ones that you're fluent with?

SPEAKER_03

I don't think so because when I'm learning, for example, when I'm learning Chinese, I don't learn Chinese with French. I sometimes learn Chinese with English. And when I learn English, I sometimes learn with French, sometimes with Chinese. I just try to always mix all of these languages together, not use some of the others.

SPEAKER_08

But I think okay, wait, say that again. You learn Chinese but not with French. So you're just learning Chinese from within Chinese now.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, right now I'm just trying to learn Chinese with Chinese and sometimes with English. I just play with languages that I know. Uh learning a language in the language, in the same language, I seem that it's very it's a big of hard work. It's just repeating again and again. So I would say that.

SPEAKER_08

That's right. You were the person that recommended that app. What is it? Vic Vicky V-I-K-I?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, Vicky, yeah.

SPEAKER_08

What kind of shows do you watch?

SPEAKER_03

The one I finished watching like two days ago was A Love So Beautiful. And I really enjoyed this one because the Chinese is very easy and they show high schoolers going through university and from university to life, and it is just very nice to see uh the vocabulary, the scenaries, and just the basic life of Chinese people. So I really, really like this one.

SPEAKER_08

Oh, very cool.

SPEAKER_03

And it is also available on Netflix, so you can also watch it on Netflix.

SPEAKER_08

Very cool, very cool. So you've got a lot of languages that you've learned already. I know you're in a master's degree now, but in the future, do you see starting any different languages that you don't already know?

SPEAKER_03

Maybe no. I don't know because the future is always uncertain because I kind of learn languages and I kind of start to get interesting in languages with the people I meet. So I know I will travel a lot, so I will probably encounter people from Germany or Switzerland. Well, I don't know. So we will see, but I will try to focus more on Korean and Japanese first for sure.

SPEAKER_08

Right, absolutely. That makes sense. Do you have any travel plans to the area? And by the area, I mean my area, over in China or in Japan or Korea.

SPEAKER_03

Actually, yes, because after graduating from my master's degree, so we're next year, I will try to do a program where in France they send uh French people into abroad to become language assistant for French. So just to become like a kind of a French teacher, but assisting French teachers overseas. And I will probably apply in China and Taiwan and see where things go.

SPEAKER_08

Very cool. Let me know where you end up. That sounds really cool.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I I can actually choose the cities. I will probably choose two in China and two in Taiwan.

SPEAKER_08

Oh, that's really, really exciting. And that's and you graduate in uh June 2020?

SPEAKER_03

Yes, hopefully.

SPEAKER_08

That's wonderful. Oh, no, you will. You're such a hard worker. I I have to tell the other the audience that listeners, Tom tracks a lot of his studying on Instagram, and he looks like such a meticulous, dedicated study student of life and of Chinese.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, I really like to share my experiences with learning and just show people that studying could be fun and aesthetic, and just to motivate people just with pictures and a little bit of text is very it's very nice, and it also motivates me to do so because when I look back on what I've already done, it's just motivating to see, oh, I've already done that, I've done this, so I just want to do more and share more. So it's very cool.

SPEAKER_08

That's a good point. Do you go back and look at what you've done like every week, every month? Like how often do you do that?

SPEAKER_03

I do go back when I feel a little bit unmotivated when I'm just procrastinating. I just go back to my Instagram feed and just look at all of the work I've done the past few weeks, and I just said to myself, okay, you have to go back to studying now and share some more. And I would say that if you are at any age and any subject, languages, mathematics, and everything, having a little bit of using your social media to share with others, but also to yourself, what you have done is extremely motivating. I followed a lot of Tumblr accounts and then some Instagram accounts. We call them the Studygram, and you just document your journey with what you're studying, take pictures of what you have done, etc. And it is it is motivating others, but mainly motivating yourself first, and that's why I'm currently doing this.

SPEAKER_08

It's so true. It's so true. Oh my gosh, Tom. Like that study gram, bookstagram, and Chinese gram. I love those so much.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, and you can find them for every single languages or every topic. It is just very cool.

SPEAKER_08

And just to tell the listeners, Tom reads T-H-O-M-R-E-A-D-S, and I'll have it down in the show notes for you guys. But he's very interesting to watch. You're you're very interesting to watch, Tom.

SPEAKER_07

Thank you.

unknown

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_08

And very inspiring. When I when I see your study pictures, I do think, wait, where are my materials? I gotta get to work now.

SPEAKER_03

That's really what makes me the happiest because I'm receiving a lot of messages from people and students all around the world. And it's just amazing to see that you can motivate people to do better in their studies just to motivate uh to just motivate them in doing things. So it's very cool.

SPEAKER_08

So in this podcast, I interview both folks like us who are learning Mandarin Chinese after, you know, later on in life, not as a child. I also interview Chinese people who learn English and other languages later on. With those two groups in mind, what questions should I ask future guests that I haven't asked you today? What's the thing?

SPEAKER_03

So it's hard to think. So you say like asking questions to Chinese learning English, stuff like that?

SPEAKER_08

Yeah, to Chinese people who learned English or to folks like us who learn Mandarin Chinese outside of like after childhood.

SPEAKER_03

After childhood. It is very hard to I'm trying to think in French first, because I think you have asked a lot of very interesting questions. But what could I ask more? Maybe if their language, their mother tongue, helps them to learn if they are probably learning Japanese or Korean, if they are Chinese speakers, if does that help? Oh yeah, I have a question for them. If they are Chinese speakers like from China or Taiwan or other places, probably in Asia, do they want to pursue their studies abroad, like go to the US, go to France, to go to international universities? So it would be interesting to see their point of view if they prefer the Chinese way of learning things at university or at school rather than go abroad to learn new things and a new way to see things.

SPEAKER_08

That's a really good question. That's a really good question. And it's challenging to get local Chinese people on the podcast because the podcasting host that I started to use got locked about six months into the project. So they can't, without a VPN, they can't access my podcast anymore.

SPEAKER_07

That's so sad.

SPEAKER_08

It's really annoying, and I don't want to move because I really like my host and I I like the services that they have. But it's really hard to convince people to come on to a podcast that they can't hear a lot of the time. But I'm trying. I'm trying. Because I I I want to know that also. Because I taught Chinese learners of English in China, in Taiwan, and in the US. And I'd love to know what they think of those different educational systems.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, because it's definitely different. Because I've studied like a few articles for my project that I had last semester, and the Chinese way of learning is just learning by heart, by heart and by heart, and with a lot of pressure, unfortunately. So I would like to, yeah, to see and to know if they prefer to go abroad to escape all of this system in a way.

SPEAKER_08

I wonder if they realize it's a very different system before they go. Because a lot of kids I taught in China, like their parents wanted them to go, but they didn't necessarily know what a big difference it was.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that's the problem itself. Because everything is kind of censored in China, so they don't have the access to probably know all the things that it's complicated.

SPEAKER_08

There are also teenagers who don't really want to know about a lot of things outside of their friends and their girlfriend or boyfriend. But a fair number of people in China do have VPNs, especially the wealthy class that generally are taking the English classes. So they're not as sheltered as we think.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08

But they do definitely have a heavy course load in high school, and they don't have that curiosity that's kind of fostered in our educational systems, is not here. But yeah, like you said, it's a lot of memorization, and this is the right way to do it, and don't think outside that box kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03

And I've seen that with uh Chinese students who come to France to your university, because in France the teachers always ask our opinions on the topic we're studying. And they tell me like in China it never happened to them. So it's very new to them to express their own point of view without being criticized or anything. Because in France you can say whatever you think, and because that's what creates debates, uh topics and stuff like that. So that's pretty new to them, I think.

SPEAKER_08

It is, and sometimes when they do try to express their opinion instead of the one they're supposed to memorize, they are, as you mentioned, told, no, no, this is the right answer. This is the right answer. So yeah, no, I I am definitely adding that to the list, and I really hope to get more native Chinese speakers on here so I can ask them these questions in the future. So I definitely will use that going forward. The distance between when I interview people learning Chinese for this podcast and when I can get native speakers is it's just such a huge difference. I'll get like, you know, six or seven non-native speakers learning the language, and then I'll get maybe one native speaker. I wanted to balance, but you do what you can.

SPEAKER_07

Exactly.

SPEAKER_08

So I already mentioned your Instagram. Is there anywhere else online that you want listeners to be able to reach out to you?

SPEAKER_03

I think if they come to my Instagram, they will understand where to go next because I'm Tamarese basically everywhere. But and because of your YouTube channel, I will really try my best to upload more about my learning experiences with Chinese on my YouTube channel. So thank you for motivating and inspiring me for that.

SPEAKER_08

You're welcome. Thank you for telling me that. I was at a very difficult point in my language learning when I first heard you say that, and it really, really helped me. So I agree with you. I think social media is a really, really good motivator for keeping going with language learning.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, and to practice with a lot of people.

SPEAKER_08

Yes, yes. I haven't done that yet, but I know it's there if I need it. When I need it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, like right now I'm practicing my English with you, so that's amazing.

SPEAKER_08

Oh, see, your English is so good, I think of it as you just using, not necessarily you practicing.

SPEAKER_03

But I'm still practicing.

SPEAKER_08

Okay, fair fair enough, fair enough. But anyway, no, seriously, thank you, thank you, thank you so much, and good luck in your studies, and I will see you online.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, for sure. And thank you again for the opportunity.

SPEAKER_08

Alright, three quick thank yous before we go. Thank you to our guest Tom for his illuminating and inspiring conversation. I hope someday I can do an interview in one of my other languages just like he did. That's just amazing to me. And talk about a third language like you did. Just wow. Wow, wow, wow. Thank you, Tom. Again, he's Tom Reeds on Instagram. That's one of the most interesting feeds that I have seen. Also, a special thanks also goes out to Damon Castillo. He is gracious enough to let us use the background music that we're using. You're hearing the instrumental version. You can hear the full version with the lyrics right after this closing is over. This particular track is called I Got to Be Right, and it's off of the Mess of Me album. You can find all his information at Damoncastillo.com or in the show notes. Or at geopets.pudbean.com. The show notes are available there. If you are lucky enough to live in or have easy access to Central Coast California, he is on tour this summer. There are two dates currently on his website. August 31st, which is a Saturday, Indian Summer Concert, Seapines Golf Resort. And that's in Los Sosos. On September 7th, he's in Santa Maria at the Cottonwood Canyon Winery. And I always talk about Damon, but not his band. And I want to include more information on that from episode to episode. And his sax player, the honorable Larry Kim. That is my title for him, because holy cow, if you have seen them in concert, you understand the lungs that Larry has on him. Larry apparently had a birthday last week, and uh Damon put it on his Instagram, and I just wanted to say right here, right now, Happy birthday, Larry. You bring a lot of joy with your musical skills. A lot. So thank you for that. Also, Damon's new song is out, but it's only playing locally in San Elizabeth, though, on a few radio stations. I'll let you know when it's available in a more widespread fashion. I know I'm going to be one of the first people to buy it because I love their music so much. Also, thank you, of course, to you, the listeners. It's because of you and your geeky interest in language learning and the language learning process and our language stories that I'm here with another interview episode. I look forward to hearing from you in any of my social media streams. Steph Fuccio, S-T-E-P-H-F-U-C-C, I O. That is my social media handle for now. I am back to posting on Instagram for now. We'll see how long that lasts. I was locked out for a couple of weeks, but I'm back. More Geopath podcast episodes, including the other two types of shows, bookish expats and virtual expats. Go to hearshare.weebly.com. Hearshare is H-E-A-R. That wordplay is intentional. Or you can type in Geopaths in your podcast app, and we will come up. If you don't find us, let me know and I'll get us listed there. Thank you so much, and more soon.

SPEAKER_04

The work that's done back. Oh that's right now.

SPEAKER_02

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