Finding the balance between how you are online. It's not that much different from having to navigate socially the reality of just existing in the world and working in Hollywood as a metaphorical place, even if it's not my physical place, something I'm keenly aware of because we tend to have people who are really pushing the envelope on, you know, both in terms of the social justice side, and you have people on the free speech side, you know, who are often at opposites, right? And are the people who are actually fighting sometimes through different proxies. Trying to be as straightforward as I can be, and you know, feel like I'm being true to myself, but uh keeping my keeping my visa intact.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to the Virtual Expats Podcast, where we discuss how moving to different countries affects what we do online with your host, Stephanie. A first-generation Italian American who feels more comfortable not fitting in Asia, where she has been living more on than off since 2003 than in her own country, the US. My name is Ronald Paredes, host of the Creativity Roots podcast and a longtime listener of Virtual Expats, where I was pleased to be a guest in the episode 62. I'm hijacking this intro so I can tell you a little bit about the guest for this episode of Virtual Expats. Brendan Davis is an American expat living in China for many years. He is a film and TV writer, producer, director, and fellow podcaster. His podcast, If I Knew You Better, Big Fish in the Middle Kingdom, and How China Works are among his several projects, each of them very different, but with a common denominator. They take you to the inside of the cultural aspects and interesting nuances that we often miss or overlook with witty and funny conversations. At a personal level, Brendan is a great guy. Considerate, respectful of other people's work, and a very dedicated professional. He always talks with a very positive vibe that makes you feel like everything is gonna be alright. It is funny because when he sent me voice messages, my wife always asks me who is the guy with the handsome voice. In this episode, Stefan Brendan chat about how his move to China changed what he did online, how he's splitting his time now that he has decided not to work in China, but will continue to keep a home base and internet connection here, and how he cultivated his crazy in a good way online persona, while being a deep and thought-provoking and may I say wonderful human being. You can find out more about Brendan by going to his website, crazyinagoodway.com, and you will want to check his project because there is a lot to learn and enjoy from them. If you have any comments or questions about this episode, please feel free to connect with Steph on any social media platform. You will find the information in the episode notes. I hope you enjoy this episode of Virtual Expats.
SPEAKER_04Thank you so much, Brendan, for joining us on Virtual Expats Podcast.
SPEAKER_09Steph, thanks a lot for having me. This is gonna be uh it's gonna be a podcast.
SPEAKER_04I think it's gonna be a fun podcast.
SPEAKER_09I think it's gonna be a fun podcast, hopefully.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely, absolutely. We play with the geographical movements of expats and their virtual activities and see how they affect each other. So let's start with your geographical movements. I hate the question, where are you from? And I'm trying to think of a different question to create. So, what is your geographical story?
SPEAKER_09Here's the same question with a lot more words.
SPEAKER_04Um, no, it's not because I don't just want to know the starting point. I want like a snapshot of where you've been. So where have you where have you lived in the world? You grew up in the US, right? In the deep south.
SPEAKER_09I did, I did. The deep, deep south, the deep, uh, deep, dirty south is my origin story. That's the incubator. It's a long story, which we'll talk about, I think, in in pieces as I understand the show. But basically, I moved to Los Angeles in 2002. And then that was the if Atlanta was kind of the you know, incubator origin, then LA was definitely the crucible in terms of um because it was a big career change was involved. Same business, but going from technical to creative. And then along the way, which is itself a a long story, but I I had had, among other things, this lifelong interest in other cultures and have friends and partners in New Zealand, and also have friends and partners that I developed uh in China as it came to be. So I found myself doing more and more work with China in the US and also developing some projects that were cooperative projects with New Zealand in the US or New Zealand and China. And so I found myself starting to go to those places in like 2013. And so I started becoming co-located between LA and Beijing, where I'd spent about a month every season or so, every four to six months, and spent about a month worth of time in China. I did that for a few years and then I moved there full-time in uh 2016. And back and forth, I've been based back in California within the States since late December. But I mean, Beijing is still home. Beijing is where you know most of my stuff is that I that I care about right now. So Beijing is Beijing's where I'm paying rent. And I'm in my yeah, that's kind of the short version of that.
SPEAKER_04So it looks like the US and China are the two countries, if we were just to put it into countries and not cities. Is that right?
SPEAKER_09Well, that's the main yeah, that's the main places. I mean, uh, yeah, I've I've spent I've spent a lot of time in Italy. I had a business partner there. It spent a good bit of time in New Zealand. But yeah, Beijing and LA are the two are the two home homes.
SPEAKER_04For Italy and New Zealand, were those like long work trips kind of things, or did you I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_09And I wasn't on a lease or anything.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_09But I mean, I'm staying, you know, wasn't staying in a hotel for the most part.
SPEAKER_04It was like at long-term rentals, but you know, now that you're mentioning the whole lease apartment thing, like where your home is thing, I think I do that too. I'm like, it's if I was there for a month to three months, but I was in a hostel or a hotel or a friend's place, I don't really consider that having lived there.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, no, I I I don't consider it, I mean, to to be because I mean I still have ongoing things in New Zealand, although there's super active. I mean, a part of me, a part of my a part of my soul stuff, part of a part of me lives there. Yeah, uh, which sounds really super corny, but it's true. Um, but yeah, so really Los Angeles and Beijing have been the two main homes, uh, and Atlanta really goes way back. And yeah, it's a long story, but don't feel super connected to there, no, no disrespect or anything.
SPEAKER_04Just no long time ago. Just not to get too tangential, but we are talking about place in one of the things in there here. But I always do a Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Shanghai Beijing comparison in my head. And I haven't spent enough time in Beijing to own this theory, but do you you've you've spent a fair amount of time in Beijing. Have you spent a lot of time in Shanghai?
SPEAKER_09Yeah, I mean a decent bit, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Do you think that's a fair comparison?
SPEAKER_09Um, yeah, pretty, pretty, pretty fair. I would, I mean, in terms of both in terms of geography and dis I mean in terms of distance between them and the fact that they're two, you know, they're two significant cities that that have within the same you know, country, obviously, but that have some really different characteristics and some overlap. Yeah, really different, you know, LA is is very serious in a lot of ways. I mean, although it's it's obviously it's it's a serious base of the entertainment business. And and um in I don't know, I always relate LA more to Beijing. And I have my overlap, my over my grid. So like people who know LA but are new to Beijing and they're trying to get to bed around travel, I kind of do I have like a LA reference map that like I roughly lands on top of Beijing so I can use okay. So imagine you're in Glendale. Okay, well that's actually where the airport is, and then so I have this way to translate it for people. If you know LA, I can make Beijing make sense in about five minutes.
SPEAKER_11Wow.
SPEAKER_09I mean, just in terms of the here's where that is, not in terms of understanding like maneuvering around the city. Yeah, not in terms of you know deep geopolitical insights.
SPEAKER_04That's a whole podcast in and of itself.
SPEAKER_09That's why huge.
SPEAKER_04All right, so let's get online then. So when was the first time we let's start the interview? Oh, you know, no, it's about playing and internet. And we've started a while ago, actually.
SPEAKER_09I know, I know, I know you owe me an edit, but we'll see when this airs.
SPEAKER_04No worries. So, what was the first time you really feel like you were like the internet was a huge part of your daily life?
SPEAKER_09I think huge part of my daily life would be it's gonna be earlier than almost anybody you've talked to, unless you've talked to people who helped invent stuff. Let me answer your question by adding in a little extra context. The short answer to your question, the the punchline to that question, I would say, is no nineteen ninety three, maybe.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_09Uh and so this is pre-I think this is basically pre-web. So I I I fell in with a friend of mine back when I was in uh ninth grade, his dad bought him a the the very first computer kit that was sold. The very, very first. And most people never touched a computer, no one really had computers at home. He was a very successful doctor and could afford this beautiful, wonderful scientific gift for his kid, who's a smart kid, but I was more electronically inclined. I was always doing stereos and things. Anyway, uh, this kid Brian got me involved to help me. So we built this computer and we actually learned basic programming in '83, '82, '83.
SPEAKER_041983.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, yeah. So I was using computers. I was literally built computers, although, you know, from a kid. There are people who are like low-level hacker types now that would just laugh at me completely. I mean, like, I have no skills in that regard now. But I so I went from being like, you're a wizard to like I, you know, I'm I'm a savvy user, but I'm not. So I really started computers on a regular basis in the early 80s. By the time the early days, you know, long before the web, and it was usenet groups and and IRC chats, and I was doing I was doing all that stuff when that was all coming up in the early 90s. I go all the way back.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you definitely win so far. You've you've you are the earliest user.
SPEAKER_09Well, if you get Tim Berners-Lee on here, uh Al Gore, they'll uh there's a lot of people ahead of me.
SPEAKER_04I don't think those are gonna happen.
SPEAKER_09You know, they're they're not next week.
SPEAKER_04I don't know.
SPEAKER_09Anyway, it's their loss, it's their loss stuff. Tell yourself that. It's their loss.
SPEAKER_04There you go. That's what I tell myself. But what what were you doing? You were mostly in the chat rooms, and you were like, was this like you were did you say 10 or 12 years old?
SPEAKER_09What were you saying I didn't say that? Okay, we're not putting it. You're giving me credit for being a lot younger than I am, actually. So so I mean, some people I'm 51.
SPEAKER_04Oh, okay. So I know, I know you're shocked.
SPEAKER_09It's I'm always told how I look, you look so much, you look no, you don't look a day over 50. I know.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's the green scene.
SPEAKER_09It makes you I I've looked the last the last three years living in China, I've caught up. I always looked a lot younger than my age, and I'm probably about caught up now. I feel like I'm basically like there's no what do you think I am? And then I guess in the really close, I'm like, oh, okay.
SPEAKER_04My idea of what 50 and 60 looks like has changed dramatically as I've gotten older. Yeah, it happens.
SPEAKER_09Once you cross about 30, it's like, oh, that's gonna happen to me. Okay.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. Like the way when I was 18, like when I was teaching 18-year-olds and they were looking at me, I was like, I thought I that age that I was when I was teaching, I thought that was ancient when I was 18. So I can only fathom what you guys are. Wow.
SPEAKER_09I was, I mean, exploring, researching, because I'd use computers, you know, there was the uh people wouldn't remember this unless you're my age or older, but at your library, if you had a really nice library, and I was I worked well with your college, so it took forever, which is part of why um in the early to mid-90s, I was I mean, I graduated, I eventually graduated in '93. Gone straight through, I would have graduated in 90. So that's all that there were the research, the online card catalog was a thing at the at the college. And then you could access research papers through this super hinky, which is a old expression, yeah, super funky, weird little version of of what became the the, you know, it's it was the internet. It was part of it was the civilian part that was for academia. So you could find papers and things. But so yeah, I was I was using that stuff and pulling quotations. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04What color was the screen at that point? Was it green or orange?
SPEAKER_09Oh, good question. That depended on your monitor, actually. Oh no, for you do you remember the one that's a monitor thing? Yeah. I I mean I had I had, you know, all the flavors. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02All the flavors.
SPEAKER_09I I had the tangerine and the lime. Yes.
SPEAKER_04There you go.
SPEAKER_09I had them, I had the matrix and the surface of the sun, whatever that orange one was.
SPEAKER_04So you started with chatrooms. When do you remember doing things other than chat rooms online?
SPEAKER_09So so chat rooms gave way to um it was the early, like the the first really super wobbly version of Netscape and Internet Explorer were kind of simultaneous, and AOL was was a thing.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_09And they had their own web browser, which for most people just I mean, had no understandably, I'm not trying to sound superior about it. Most people who came to the internet with AOL back in the day, that was their full concept of what it was. They had no idea that, oh, this is a walled garden that's curated and stocked and planted just for you. Oh, there's all these fish in this in the stream. Yeah, how about that? We put them there, you know, and that stream is closed on both ends, right? They had no idea that this was like a uh a self-contained ecosystem.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_09And there are later versions of AOL where they had like their browser, and you're like, oh, I can put in any address if I know what to do, and I could search, and oh my gosh, Alta Vista changed my life, you know. Early search engines. It's funny because when you know people grow up now with the internet, it it's part of your consciousness of how to use it. And I've had this conversation with a lot of people, especially people with kids who grow up, oh my god, they've they're wired into the world's information from birth, and so what are their expectations, right? But so at the time it's like, oh my god, we could I could find out anything, like you know, and it's funny because as much junk and misinformation as there is currently online at any given topic, and you know, there's gold and there's junk, and you gotta you have to know enough to do the junk. But but so back when there were, you know, I mean, I I I can't put a real number on this, but I mean, however many trillions of web pages there probably are, and I guess there are now, however many there are. Yeah, I mean, I I was online when there were like probably less than a hundred thousand web pages total in the world, you know, when because when it started, like every creative person who was also computer savvy somewhere started trying to build some funky weird little site. So you have a bunch of really goofy ins archives of some of that stuff's hilarious to see what's oh my gosh, it's it's a lot of stuff's still on the creativity. Some of it is, and some people have maintained that's so uh although the old technology doesn't work, so they recreate how it looked, but yeah.
SPEAKER_04It's funny because what was it like last month or two months ago where the it was the anniversary of basically the common people's version of the internet, not the military version, but like the World Wide Web. And I was like 30 years, 30 years. Can you just fathoming that all of this has happened in that short time frame is just like I fathom it because I watched, yeah, because I I was I was there. Me too. Although on a slower path than you, I was in a pretty small well, actually no, my first real venture was oh gosh, at university. I really just gosh. Um at university like 1999, just millennium changed and uh and it was hot mail, and then we discovered, you know, you could type in other addresses and find other things and then just search. But we had we had the orange screen in our school, right? But I don't view that as this in the same way as the World Wide Web when it became very research friendly. It feels like a very different place because the the listservs were very university-based and they were very exactly boring, boring, boring for the most part. So it was yeah, it was a very different experience. You moved to China in 2016, caught over chat rooms and um and research online. What other things were you doing during that gigantic chunk of time?
SPEAKER_09Uh I mean, chat rooms and IRC. I was still like uh no, no one needs to know my history, but I mean, I was still in Athens, Georgia. I lived there eight years before I moved to Atlanta. I mean, it was years and years and years and years. And so the development of the web was you know, the early social networks and things like that, and listers, as you mentioned, and like job boards, and there were early, early user groups, like professional film groups, because I was a film, I was a technician, came out of music, my first careers in music as a guitar player and also in sound engineer to film school, got a film degree in in at Georgia State and in Atlanta, and worked on the technical side. I mean, I worked in production sound as a mixer or boom operator, and I also became an editor later. And so, all during all I mean, this was like about a 12-year period in Atlanta, and so it was social stuff, but also work groups and things like that, and moving to LA. Before I moved to LA, the uh you know, online dating sort of became an early thing. And so I was single in Atlanta and single and moved you know throughout the time in LA and uh for the most part, and so the early dating websites, which were hilarious, you know, but just such a revelatory thing, and there used to be such a stigma around it. Yeah, and now it's just why were they hilarious?
SPEAKER_04Because I yeah.
SPEAKER_09Well, I mean, because no one knew how to act and the reverent I think the funny thing was there were these there were all these, oh what do they call them? Again, it you had you have to be old enough to get the reference of the the name would would instantly make you laugh if I could pull the name out of thin air. But there were these matchmaking services that they used to try to sell. And it was basically there'd always be some this is gonna sound anybody who's easily triggered, just get over it, okay? I'm a grown man. So uh there's there was this this is coming from a good place, but there was there was the these dating uh matchmaking sites run in real time, like in real world, like these little kiosks at the shopping at the strip mall, and you go in, then they were always run by some kind of like good-looking kind of woman, probably middle-aged woman, and she's the face of like her local store, and she's got a charming staff of other, like, you know, attractive women, and their their market is and their ads that they would run was were these photos of all these good-looking women, and they're single and they're on video, and here's what I like, man, and blah blah blah. And in the cheesy, the 80s video video production values were so hysterically bad. Um, we had better equipment, it's just like the low level of equipment was gave you this terrible look. But in reality, their their customers were basically all the needy men, and I never did that. It's thousands of dollars. I was curious enough to find out that was it cost thousands of dollars to go in there and they would do this interview. Uh, let's do a personality inventory. What do you like in a woman? You know, uh, you know, and and then they would sit you, they would tell you how to dress up like you're getting your photo made at the Sears Portrait Studio. And and so there are all these great videos online of guys that at their nerdiest ever, very awkwardly trying to tell themselves on this horrible video. So that was around. So then when online dating websites became a thing, and but you know, before it was a commercial venture, it was just there were all there was always like those chat groups and things like that where people could meet and mix and mingle uh virtually or in real life. And um, so that was an interesting thing. And then all these subcultures, you know. So there was like professional film groups that I that popped up and I got to be part of. There were all kinds of things related to music and arts and lifestyle, and there was an old group, I'll out myself here, uh, called uh Suicide Girls, which was not like my dominant aesthetic that I was into. I actually have no tattoos. I did have a bunch of piercings and super long hair when I was a rock guy, but I amazingly I have no tattoos.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_09But Suicide Girls is all about like basically, you know, people know it now, it's old hat, but at the time it was a big deal. It's like, oh, we're we're killing society's idea of what we should look like. You know, basically it was a lot of daddy, daddy helped me or uncle touch me kind of projected onto the internet. I see your face, you don't know what to do with it. This is this is kind of comedy. It's comedy. You're like, what kind of what are we talking about?
SPEAKER_04I'll tell you what, sorry, my facial expressions just have a life of their own. I've tried to tame them over the years, it doesn't work that great.
SPEAKER_09That was an out for me because I realized I was digging a hole.
SPEAKER_04No, no, no, no, no, no. My facial expression was because you're putting already just a few minutes into the interview, you're putting a lot of words to things that I've experienced or thought, but haven't actually expressed uh articulately yet. So you're you're you're doing that, which is awesome.
SPEAKER_09Right.
SPEAKER_04But I hadn't realized that I had thought it, and that's what the facial expression was. Oh, great. Okay.
SPEAKER_09Well, I would it's you know, I like how meta this is, other than that one meta in the beginning where we did a I I got a second take on that sound like an idiot.
SPEAKER_04Funny that you mentioned stuff, though, because when I was in LA, I was a very broke college student living in Santa Monica. I don't know. I rent control is the reason why that happened. And community colleges, thank goodness for that. But I had the AOL display. I did, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unbook notes to me, the most uh the the school with the biggest international student population was SMC. And I just thought LA was so diverse and so mixed.
SPEAKER_09And it is, but SMC is like the the yeah, the crockpot and all that.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely.
SPEAKER_09LA is much metaphor in a lot of ways.
SPEAKER_04What's that?
SPEAKER_09That's a crockpot's probably metaphor, good metaphor in a lot of ways. I I lived in Santa Monica my first six years in LA and I love it.
SPEAKER_04But it's got it's got a soft spot in my heart. I mean, I lived less than two miles from the beach, and I mean, coming from landlocked Pennsylvania, it was awesome. Where was I going? Oh, so I was super broke living in Los Angeles and going to school. And so I got the AOL discs because I couldn't afford Dial up internet, no matter how cheap it was. And so I went into the chat rooms and I discovered, oh, there are dating chat rooms. I'm single in Los Angeles. This place is huge. Let's meet some people that aren't in my classes. And so, you know, it's all just what's a have a free dinner. Oh, yeah. But the stakes, people were crazy. I mean, there's they're crazy online now, but they were really crazy then because there weren't as many pictures. It was mostly text. Oh, yeah. As soon as people got you into a private room, they got like super crazy kinky in two seconds. And I'm like, wait, we were talking about books. What just happened?
SPEAKER_09What happened here? So yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah. So it's it was in it was interesting to see how people changed when it was in the general chat room when a lot of people were talking to when we got into a private chat room. But anyway, that was it. No, that's so good.
SPEAKER_09Well, well, what well, I mean, you asked where things go. So I mean, so just different, you know, different social sites, and uh and I was never a big friendster guy, but I remember when it started. I I I still have friends who are like, bring back friendster. Well, I have one friend. Hi, I'm Oksha. I have one friend who still says, Bring back Friendster. It says that on her Facebook profile. It said that on her MySpace profile because I knew back then.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you were a musician. Did you put stuff up on MySpace?
SPEAKER_09That was a decade before.
SPEAKER_04Ah, okay, okay.
SPEAKER_09I had a brief professional, semi-professional career.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_09But it was over by 97.
SPEAKER_04Ah, okay, okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_09Yeah. Yeah, 97. I mean, maybe kind of gasped a little bit in 98, but yeah, so I mean, a long time before MySpace. Because and MySpace, you know, later became branded. They tried to there was the heyday, and then they died when Facebook rose to prominence, and then MySpace tried a bit of a rebrand. They paid Justin Timberlake a bunch of money, and he was like, hey, it's a hit place for music, and you know, all our old profiles disappeared, and it was and it was like G it was like a less cool G, if that's possible.
SPEAKER_04So you were a pretty heavy user nerfy internet from the beginning. Do you feel like your online and offline life were pretty balanced, or did you ever feel like you kind of spent too much time online?
SPEAKER_09It was nice enough in your prep, you know, to see some of the some of the questions you might address, and and a lot of them are thought-provoking. This was one of them. I short answer to that question is yes, there were definitely periods where I was online way too much. Um, there were a bunch of these kind of dystopian future sci-fi, near near future sci-fi movies, which is to say, you know, near-term sci-fi movies, some some version of losing your identity online or being addicted to strange days, things like that. And there were times where I felt like I could relate to that. But but I was never like Neo in the Matrix where I'm like, you know, living there jacked in, you know, wired in.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_09But I mean, but but there there were times. I mean, there there were there were probably periods here and there, there would be periods of a few days where I was basically just online constantly. I mean, again, 20 odd years ago.
SPEAKER_04It's hard not to. Sometimes when life is harsh, it's it's nice to have a slightly more controlled digital environment to kind of escape to. These stories you were talking about in Athens and Atlanta and Los Angeles.
SPEAKER_09Well, you're asking if there's a period of time I spent too much time online, and you're asking about balance. Yeah, I mean, it's it's something I'm more into I'm really in touch with it these days. The pendulum has swung between the extremes. It's really gone. I I made a lot of changes some years ago just from my own, you know, some kind of having some kind of a shred of you know mental health uh awareness and um spending too much time online and mostly being too too many inputs. Like it's uh I have a kind of brain that's that's pretty hyperactive. So I I don't have you know ADHD or anything like that. But I mean you could make a case for like, you know, slightly more obsessive than than normal thing, things that are useful in my career as a producer, because it, you know, you want to be to track a bunch of things and prioritize, you know, priorities, things like that. Um anyway, though, as relates to the question, there are times in my my work life where tracking a ton of inputs and value ordering that and kind of constantly being aware of a bunch of stuff, but focused on the task, that's just that's the job, basically, right? And then and then acting on that information the right way. Well, I mean, all kinds of different variables, you know. I mean, that you're producing a project and you know, there's there's crew, there's cast, there's crew, they're there are all these things. Oh, we have a location, and how do we get the insurance certificate? And it's there, there are tons and tons of things going on. Even though I I hire somebody whose job is to handle those details, I have to make sure that those details are managed, right? And make sure that the right person is doing the right thing and there's things I've got to do, whatever. So so so that so the way I'm wired is an asset for what I do, but it means that it's hard to turn, you know, it's easy for me to do something like obsessed on the internet, that like I used to. It's been a long time though, yeah. But it's hard to turn my brain off at night. So to be able to do this, I adopted a lot of practices and and there's a lot more to it. The whys has to do with with other things, but you know, I adopted a no screen, you know. I try to do no screens about an hour or so before bed at a minimum. Don't always do it, you know. I've like everybody else, sometimes I'm in the bed with the phone in my hand. But um, but I don't I don't look first thing in the morning. I basically really had to take control of all that stuff to be able to to to for my own sake, and again, it gets into other issues. I mean, from simple productivity to peace of mind to statements of identity to the universe about how I'm gonna live my life.
SPEAKER_07I'm not available 24 hours a day.
SPEAKER_09Mill of production, you know, there's certain things if I'm in the middle of something where I might have to be reached at 3 a.m. Again, I'm fortunate to be at a point where I'm structured this way. But there are certain things, you know, there are people whose job it is to do what what they call fire watch, right? In the military camping where you're you're the one up all night looking for enemy fire or looking for make sure the fire is out if it's a campground, you know, looking for movement from the other side, whatever. But there are a handful of things that would be the reason that like I would be woken up or bobbed in the middle of the night, you know, but those are few and far between.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_09So I mean, if I'm doing my job right, then then one thing I can do is I can get some sleep. So it's really hard for me to naturally turn off the inner chatter. So I adopted, you know, like I got really serious about meditation practice, and I'm not as not as on my game with my yoga as I need to be. I've got to get back into being in shape is a priority. But but yoga meditation, especially meditation, I I don't mess with, I mean, every morning and usually every night, but I don't look at anything. When I get up, I mean, I blindly like turn the phone, turn the alarm off, but I'm about an hour before I look at the phone.
SPEAKER_04I'm so impressed.
SPEAKER_09Practice, got to get to get up earlier. I didn't invent more hours in the day. I get up earlier to be able to do that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. See, I've done the screen thing at night, and I've definitely stopped doing late night interviews because with time zones, it was easier for me to just do an interview at 10 p.m. at night. Uh, but I found that I couldn't turn off. Like I my brain just kept going, going, going. And I was 2, 3 a.m. and I was still going. So I started to do like stopped doing late night interviews, stopped like I stopped my screen time at like 6 or 7 p.m. most of the time. But I can't do mornings. Mornings, I definitely, because of time zones and I'm talking to people all around the world, I do grab my phone at the beginning of the day and check if there's anything I've like missed, forgotten, or any kind of fires. So my own personal fires. Yeah, the screen time at night made a huge difference for me. Do you find that you sleep better because of that?
SPEAKER_09Absolutely. Absolutely. I I don't rely on any one sleep aid. I mean, sometimes nothing at all, sometimes melatonin, sometimes uh Benadryl, you know, diphenhydromed the different things to sort. I mean, I tried every prescription thing under the sun.
SPEAKER_04Have you tried C BD oil? Because that's still pretty accessible in the US, right?
SPEAKER_09CBD oil?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, yeah. No, I I I'm using it regularly while I'm here in the States, and sadly, I'll be leaving it behind when I get on the plane. I I sound like it. I'm I'm not on the influence of anything at the moment, but uh I'm a big big advocate of the Lethia Medicine in general.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, no, we bought some. I heard um oh gosh, was it Joe Rogan or Tim Ferris or something? I heard a lot of people talking about it for a while, and I do have problems falling asleep at night. And so I bought it when we were on a vacation, like a long vacation in Japan, because it's there. And so I bought it, had it delivered to our hotel, and tried it out for a week, and I was like, okay. Yeah, why is this illegal where I live right now? This is not fair.
SPEAKER_09It's very sad, and I guess we could, yeah. I mean, I I have been in two pretty major car accidents, uh, neither one of which my fault, but I have a bunch of issues, plus been a big guy on and off, and I've done very physical. The boom operator thing is a very physical job, and you know, and sitting and editing is actually terrible for your back. And so I've had all these things that are just you know, basically my my back and legs, and I'm just gonna old man for a second. But basically that's that's one thing that makes a massively positive difference. Guys, it's derived from rope, okay? Just derived from you know, you can you can derive it from the plants that don't have any any any fun time at all. The plants that you make rope from.
SPEAKER_04They talk about internet addiction, but honestly, I've just realized by you saying this, and I talk about this a lot, but I don't actually address it specifically. The physicalness of being on a screen that long.
SPEAKER_09Sure.
SPEAKER_04I really don't expect to explicitly address that. But I have my own issues too from things off-screen that affect my on-screen time, from on-screen stuff, eye stuff, different wrist stuff. Yeah.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, well, I'm wearing these reading glasses, I'm wearing these glasses now, and I I had fighter pilot eyeballs up until about two, three years ago. All of a sudden I need these for reading.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I had LASIK surgery before I started and stopped a PhD program, and that's when I started using reading glasses again because it was too much time online reading videos, creating stuff. Just yeah, it was nuts. It was nuts. Yeah. Never do a PhD program. No, I didn't say that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_09It's too late for me. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. It's it's no, it's a weird, weird existence.
SPEAKER_01Hello everyone. I'm Eva Yu. I was a tech journalist in Israel, Silicon Valley, South Korea, and China for five years. And last year I left my job and I started a cycling journey from Shanghai to London, interviewing the tech entrepreneurs on the ancient Silk Road. And I was on the uh episode 71 at Virtual Expats, and it says a South Korean journalist who has lived in Ecuador, US, UK, and China. And so currently I'm writing a book about the cycling trip, and I plan to donate the proceeds from the book to Turkey. So if you want to get in touch with me, my email is evauratgmail.com. So it's e-v-a-y-o-o-ar-e at gmail.com. And my YouTube channel is Seekroad, which is S-E-E-K-R-O-A-D. And my website is seekroad.co. So it's not.com, it's C O. And um, let's get back to Brandon's virtual express story. Thank you. Where are we? Oh, we're still in the US.
SPEAKER_04Can we jump over to China or is there anything else?
SPEAKER_09Sure, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04So you moved to China in 2016.
SPEAKER_09What would you say is back and forth. I mean, I first went there 20 three thirteen. 2013, okay.
SPEAKER_04First time you moved you moved.
SPEAKER_09I mean, like a month at like a month at a time, and I wasn't like in a number of days. Fair enough, fair enough. But you're like, living like a local.
SPEAKER_04I was so what was the biggest shift in what you did online when you first went there in 2013?
SPEAKER_09Sure. So there's the obvious to anyone who knows China, um, with reality that that the things you take for granted, the rest of the world are blocked. No Google anything. Gmail still worked at the time okay, but even now Gmail is kind of a disaster. So Gmail, Google Drive, Google Google, Google, whatever, not gonna happen. Obviously, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and and did you have a VPN back then? I did, and I'd been using them before because of travel and security sometimes for work and be wary of open hotspots uh for travel. So I was already using VPNs before moving. Yeah, so so that was you know, that's the obvious difference. And then, of course, I mean the the the the the thing I miss more than things is just Google search. Jumping way ahead. There's the controversy. Look, I appreciate their principles. I'm I'm I'm in Palo Alto right now, right? Down the road, Mountain View. It's like two stops on the freeway. I get it. I'm a huge democracy in free speech. Uh, you know, I'm on board with pretty much most of the progressive agenda. But having said that, I really wish that the people who don't want I I I I hope every day that Google does like a China version of a search because we need it. We need it, we don't have any good options, and so I I think they should be able to do a localized version and and you know, people scream and they do have an AI lab in Shanghai. Yeah, yeah, no, they do. But so I mean they're in China, but right, but they're but having their service, I mean, having a Google search, even if they agree to filters, you know. I mean, sharing the data would be the issue, but so I'm not allowed to that, but I would be on board. Yeah, but they filtered a limited, you know, you put in midget porn and you don't get any results. I'm okay with that. You know, you put in that would ruin my day.
SPEAKER_04I don't know.
SPEAKER_09You put in, I know it's a how you're gonna carry on. Well, fortunately, you know, fortunately, you have an industrial excessive. Uh you have secrets, um, but you can access that site if you need to. But yeah, so just for day-to-day stuff, I wish there was Google. But but so uh uh, you know, I'd already been using WeChat. WeChat launched in English. I mean, I I speak a little, I have decent like taxi and like like basically like DD and restaurant Chinese, but I can't read and write. I mean, I know some characters, I know the basic numbers, but uh but I can't read or write functionally. So WeChat in English was a thing. I was using it in LA in 2012, and uh yeah, and so I was already already had good WeChat game going to China because I had um I had a Chinese partner at the time and a lot of Chinese students I taught producing in LA uh as well, and some Chinese colleagues, and so you know, but so really embracing WeChat and losing almost everything else was the big, big, big shift. And feeling disconnected and cut off, you know. I mean, there were upsides because you felt free of the noise, although I still got notifications, those still went through, so I still felt well that's rude. It is having to like turn those off because you know, most of it you don't care, but then there's oh I wanna what's this? I gotta check out that, and blah, blah, blah. And I couldn't because the VPNs were super spotty, and again, that's a that's his own story.
SPEAKER_04No, it is, it is. I got kicked off Twitter more times than I'd like to say last year, and I so I slowly migrate migrated over to Instagram, which I actually like right now, but Twitter has much more of like when I want to read stuff online, yeah. Uh that's much more where I want to be, but it was just so hard to keep re-certifying because of quote unquote security reasons. And I'm like, oh, okay, so you know I'm in China. Okay, but just stop, please.
SPEAKER_09Just yeah, it's it's become i and and I've been struck recently with recent travels and other things.
SPEAKER_04That's the biggest shift, is you you weren't using a lot of the the West non-Chinese media apps and whatnot, but you were using WeChat a lot.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, it was a slow migration, and yeah, to now I've got all the basic Chinese apps that everybody has. I know how to use stuff, and and my girlfriend is Chinese, and so she's you know, between my old assistant or my my girlfriend who, you know, try not to bother too much, but stuff, but like I know like I use Maitwan WaiMai for food because I know where all the buttons are, my address is all entered and saved, and you know, so once in a while when there's an issue, you know, but when I'm back in China, it's either get together with her, if I'm with a Chinese friend, or if I'm working with Ying Ying, you know, I need like an upgrade. I'll get I'll I'll find a f a Chinese, a trusted Chinese friend and uh have them help me. Nothing more empowering than as a grown person than having someone help you do that a child could do.
SPEAKER_04The simplest of things, like knowing which button to press at my sushi restaurant when I have to request a number for waiting.
SPEAKER_08Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_04Like I'm a child right now, I just keep pressing buttons, and then when they call me, I just point to the one I want and ignore the fact that I press the wrong button.
SPEAKER_09I want this many. You hold up your fingers.
SPEAKER_04It's so bad. It's so yeah, language issues are definitely humbling.
SPEAKER_09Well, I I joke on I I joke that my superpower is impressing and then confusing native namely speakers because I can, you know, the the the same basic stuff that we say all the time. I mean, I can say all that, you know, and pretty accurate. You know, somebody will driver will think that they'll say in Chinese comedian Jesse Appel, who's great, he has this. I I'm paraphrasing a bit of his to he has a thing where he'll talk about he'll check in with somebody and he'll say something really basic and they'll say, Oh, no, Jong Shu to Jentah. It's like your Chinese is so good. And it's like, no, no, no. It's very basic. His is he's actually totally fluent, so that's what's funny. But yeah, for me, I can legitimately no, no, no, booy shua zhongwang. I was what just that I just said I don't speak Chinese in China. Oh well, boo shwa zhongwan.
SPEAKER_04Up to a certain point, you were a user of the internet. When did you start creating stuff and putting it online?
SPEAKER_09Oh, okay. So actually, you know, pretty early on because even back in Atlanta, when I switched from production work to post-production work, from being on set as a technic technician to being the editor and like a junior producer, I worked at this production company in Atlanta and I was an editor for four years. And I did I also did sound when we had it come up for shoots, but I mean I was transitioning to to helping produce into editing. So I would make stuff and I made little music videos and funny comedy bits and sketches in early days of you know before YouTube. There were sites, there were all these like video sites, these social videos.
SPEAKER_04What were those? I don't know that I was on videos much before that.
SPEAKER_09Blanking about names of a lot of these. But yeah, when YouTube finally became a thing, I mean, I was, yeah, I I my old channel that I don't use, there would be all kinds of old, funny, goofy things that I put on. So yeah, I mean, in that sense, there were things that I uploaded. But one thing was actually, I mean, now, you know, going becoming popular and viral, I mean, it's it means it's millions fairly instantly, is what that means. But back in the day, I had a thing that kind of went like light viral, which was that it got over 50, it got about 50,000 likes within a matter of a few weeks, which was a big deal. And it was a video, it was a like a one-take performance video, a wizard guitar player friend of mine, Rook Overman, playing a cool piece, and we lit it kind of funky, and I was careful. It's like it was kind of hypnotic, sort of a trancey thing he did on guitar, a lot of echo and stuff. And it was like, you know, slow pushes in and tilts and pans and pulling it, you know, zooming out, and anyway, because his performance is amazing, not because I'm like great video, but but um because his performance is really special, a lot of there were some sites who featured it. So back then that meant, oh, hey, look, I got five or ten thousand uh likes and plays. Now, if the same thing happens at a meaningful level, I mean you're talking, you know, tens of millions, but anyway.
SPEAKER_04Five or ten thousand.
SPEAKER_09I don't have anything up there. I don't have anything in the in the millions.
SPEAKER_04Well, okay, so you've done behind the scenes stuff and in front of the camera and in front of the mic and stuff. Is there a spot where you're where you feel more comfortable as a creator?
SPEAKER_09Wherever I am uniquely contributing, wherever it's something that, yeah, maybe somebody else could do it, but it's going to be fundamentally different because of their contribution. I don't have a giant love of being on camera, and I have this is part of my whole professional, even part of my reckoning of the last year up to now has been about reconciling how much I want to be face forward or not. But you know, that's that's a big that's a big thing.
SPEAKER_04What that was a very powerful deep sentence that you just said. Can we dig into that?
SPEAKER_09Sure.
SPEAKER_04The reckoning. What is that? What happened?
SPEAKER_09What well, okay. So uh whatever you feel comfortable sharing. Okay. I'm happy to share. I just don't want to bore your listeners to tears um or overshare, uh, which I can promise none of those things. I'll let you decide in the edit. Um, this is sort of my own, my own metaphysics of what I've been working out for myself, and so I don't know how fascinating it is. But I guess the short version of this is because I'm doing this other show, I'm doing uh when we were talking about the shows that I do, I think that was in our pregame. I don't think I really kind of addressed that briefly.
SPEAKER_04We go over this real quick.
SPEAKER_09So so I could just I could tick through really fast. So I do a podcast that I'm sure you probably linked or whatever called um big fish in the middle kingdom, and it's all about people who've, you know, moved or returned to China to do things that are ambitious, basically. And it was focused on, you know, China, China's side expats or Chinese who have returned, right? The uh what's that for them? But the returning fish, basically, the returning sea turtles who've gone abroad and studied and come back. And love doing that show, really satisfying, made a lot of great friends and and and had some amazing conversations. Love doing that show that led to doing how China Works because I wanted to do a show that was a conversation with not like it was a regular conversation with me and one other person and not just me and a different guest every week. But how China Works is a show that I created and co-host with Ying Ying Lee, who's this amazingly talented cross cultural communicator, really big fan of her work. I had her on my show Big Vision, the Middle Kingdom, and that's what led ultimately to I wanted to do a show with a Chinese co host, and that's what led to branding this idea with her. And I love doing that show, and then now as my work. And travels have taken me around more. I mean, China's still like my home home, but my film and TV work, my my development work's not there, and that's a whole conversation. But essentially, I'm working more in the West, and my my development is in Los Angeles or actually in Paris, which is exciting with this movie that I'm working on.
SPEAKER_08So cool. Yeah.
SPEAKER_09So if we get this together, then it'll be there. So I've long been wanting, as much as I love Big Fish in the Middle Kingdom, I've really wanted to create something that I could do that was more portable. And so I came up with this new idea where I took parts, I mean, it's very similar, but I have this new show that I'm launching the first full episode of. I know you're you're recording, you know, we're a bit in the can. By the time this comes out, there'll be a lot of these shows up. But I have this show called If I Knew You Better. And the idea is that even if I know the person, I'm asking them the kind of questions you would ask in like late night, the guards down, you're feeling candid. Ask the kind of questions I'd ask if I knew you better. And the idea is to get into the deeper stuff of life without being too naval-gazed about it, but but to be able to to have those, you know, kind of more meaningful conversations, more reflective conversations with people who have a lot to say. That's the reckoning. So part of it was realizing it was a it was a really hard decision to end Big Fish as a regular thing. Because I mean, it means a lot to me, even if, you know, it has its loyal audience. There are a few thousand people who are very fortunate and thankful that they like the show and pay attention to the show on a regular basis. And some of them, but not all of them, have come along to how China works. Some of them, you know, a lot of you guessed on that show, but I mean, if it's they don't need to know that they already know the lot of that information, so they're not necessarily listening to that show. And I just from wanting to travel and wanting to talk to people and not me not wanting to be limited to China. The reckoning was related to me in China and just my professional transformation, the arc of going from I mean, because I didn't move there to produce, I I moved there to to entertainment business consulting by myself and to switch environments and to learn more, actually to work on my language, which I've done intermittently, but not like any recently. But the the move was about a lot of things, but I didn't plan to write and produce there necessarily. I planned to do to write there, but then do make stuff other places. And that's pretty much how it's working out. I have done some things too. I've done a lot of corporate video, things like that. I directed a thing for Chinese television last year. But the reckoning was without going deep down each of those individual threads, I mentioned these things kind of in passing to say that coming to terms with where China is and its evolution of what it needs from foreigners, you know, they have learned this the Chinese folks are like, you know, smart people anywhere, have learned and adapted, and they have people to do the things that need to be done. And so if you are established enough and basically they they care about esteem, they want people who really have a giant pedigree for the roles that they have foreigners in. And if you aren't really pedigried, they don't care. And you know, I have just enough, you know, things on the on the on the CV that I can do certain things. But in terms of comfortably producing there, it's basically impossible. Um, so the reckoning was my own reckoning with okay, I moved here with certain expectations and even with the qualifiers that I had, because I've been working with Chinese clients before I ever had my first trip. I produced a show for Chinese TV in LA before I ever went to China the first time.
SPEAKER_04Oh, wow. Okay.
SPEAKER_09So I did I did a whole series, uh, I produced an EP to whole series with my team, a big celebrity interview show in Los Angeles for Chinese TV.
SPEAKER_04What was the show?
SPEAKER_0913 episodes. It's a show. Here's my my great pronunciation, Jiapin Yo, which loosely translates the English name was the best. And it's about the best writers, directors, actors, producers. And so it's a it's an interview show, it's a CCTV6 thing, and it's a half-hour hosted show, giant rear projection screen with an audience, and they they use it to try to set up a featured movie of the week. And they'd wanted to do a Hollywood season forever, but they couldn't bring people over because of the time difference in the travel and even paying people just like say Sag Scale, which nobody they want is gonna take that low a rate. So basically, to do a show with actual Hollywood people, they needed to come to Hollywood through a long story. I was I was the guy that got the gig and did it with my team. Um, IDB credit is not very not not very accurate and full, but we did 13 episodes of it, you know. So I had that under my belt going to China, which was which was helpful, right? Because it's it is a credit that people people who know Chinese media stuff like know this know this reference, and so it's a good reference. But in terms of my own stuff, you know, the the the reckoning that I mentioned was about what's my place here, and you know, I came here to learn certain things, try to do certain things, and I've done some of those, I've learned a lot more than I ever bargained for. And China's going to be important for the rest of my natural life for the next however many years and probably for a long time, they'll they'll have a pretty big arc. And I want to be part of that. I want to be part of, you know, whatever's gonna be defining the future. I'm to the left of center in terms of anything politically, pretty much, and socially, definitely. So, you know, it's it's there's a there's a lot of like biting my tongue and and holding my nose and you know, these skill sets that you develop, no matter what your opinions, if you're you know have strongly held opinions about anything to do, you know, American wise, uh, you know, there's certain ways. But but most people who move there don't they don't move there because they want to express some patriotic issue. Uh they're they're fairly either they're moving because of their political expertise in how to make something happen, or they're fairly apolitical. So, anyway, in terms of reckoning with you, this was about on and off camera stuff, and I got a little bit more meta and weighty for me because uh this is how my brain works. And all that is kind of preamble to say this. If I am making a difference, if if what I'm having to say uniquely influences the conversation, then that's what I'm interested in. And sometimes I'm in front of the camera and sometimes I'm behind the camera. But ultimately, I want to make cool things happen. I want to make interesting projects happen. I I want to devote my time to doing things. I'm not doing this, it isn't a hobby. I mean, it's a hobby, and this is no one's paying me to do this, right? But I've been a, you know, I I mean, I media professional puts you me in a more limited box. I mean, I've got, you know, 30 years of film and TV experience, basically. So podcasting for me is an outgrowth of that type of communication and storytelling and formativeness. Can't you tell I'm a storyteller? I say things like that. So yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, there's so much to unpack from what you just said. And and this is part of why I I wanted to on this podcast, is because when I listen to your work, I feel like it grounds me in a way. It's partially your voice, but it's partially your soul, if I can get all creepy.
SPEAKER_09Um, because you're very unless you want to eat my soul, then it's not a good thing.
SPEAKER_04No, no, no, no, no, no. What? Where my skin?
SPEAKER_09I don't know. I make a good throw rug.
SPEAKER_04You have this, if I make that meta about your about Big Fish Middle Kingdom, you have this really cool balance of like very funny and light and very deep and articulate. And I think that's what keeps me coming back. And that's there, whether it's a solo show or whether you're doing an interview show. And so that that's part of why I was like, oh my gosh, I want to pick his brain about his his virtualness.
SPEAKER_09Um I'm really I really appreciate it. I'm glad to be with you, and I hope it's useful for your listeners. And you know, I do free associate a bit, but that's how we get to the good stuff usually.
SPEAKER_04That's conversation. That's what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_09Or I'll just just hopefully entertaining. But that that's I'm not just trying to be a smart ass, basically. I'm trying to get at something. But I don't always have the little nugget in three words to deliver, you know.
SPEAKER_04Oh, we don't have to. That's the beauty of long form, is you don't have to get it into three words. But that flexibility that you talked about from what you wanted from China or your Chinese your experience in China to what you uh came to in your reckoning, that flexibility in adjusting what you're doing, how you're doing it, and geographically how often you're going to be here while doing it, that's brilliant. And that's something that it expets we have to do because we don't we don't have a lot of the benefits.
SPEAKER_09We're the we're the guests, we're the guests, no matter how long you live there, or you could be really dug in. You could have a blended family with a local.
SPEAKER_04I mean, you could be doesn't matter, you know, we're not here.
SPEAKER_09And that's true everyone's responsible, but yeah, you're always gonna be you could be the most inside outsider, but you're still and that's true every day.
SPEAKER_04It's not a distinctly a Chinese thing. I talk to expats from all over, and I have for I've been picking break people's brains about this crap for years. I just never realized I should hit the report but record button and capture it. Um but it's it's everywhere. If you're not local, you're not local, and you're always going to be an outsider no matter how much you assimilate. And there's goods and bads that come that come from that. But that flexibility is absolutely key to sanity.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, and I I realized the thing that I was I that's kind of my process, what I just did, where I sort of had to, you know, just discuss it, right? Because I had that as an exact question. And so the reckoning for me was about why am I here? Okay. I won't even try to make all the bad jokes about existential crisis, but why why am I here in China specifically? I mean, I'm not at the moment, Palo Alto, but why be there and what am I getting out of it? And the reality is that it was useful and instructive, and now it's time to move on and move back to what I do in in my business. I used to be someone I I've spent a lot of time, a lot of money, a lot of blood, sweat, and tears and effort in developing different co-productions related to China. I've developed Chinese-only projects with where I was the only Lao Wai, where I was, you know, the Chinese company with well-connected, like the appropriate kinds of connections and and et cetera, like to do things, not people that are wannabes or are, you know, beginners on stuff. And nothing again, if that's where you are, that's great. I'm not, there's no judgment. I'm just saying I'm dealing, you know, dealing with other established professionals. And still, even with the best of intentions, like basically I have a learn an extraordinary amount, but the learning curve that China still has to do and that you to integrate China versus the Western way film and TV works, okay. I hope to be continue to be part of this conversation, but I'm no longer interested in pushing that rock uphill because I have to, you know, I've got a, you know, I'm trying to raise a, I'm trying to raise a pretty big kid here, right? This guy right here. So I mean, I've got to play to my strengths. And so, you know, there was an adventure aspect of the the overly probably romanticized aspect of, oh, I'm going to, you know, I can fit in this unique way. And to a degree, I fit into a way I wasn't needed in certain things. I mean, because I, you know, I have just enough kind of weird, unique combination of skills and experience and and credit and whatnot that I could operate in certain ways, still it's not satisfying. It's not satisfying. So the accommodations we constantly make there. Oh, okay, well, the VPNs are down, but we can do this. Oh, we can't get this thing we really need, but we can do this thing that's kind of similar, kind of close. I I'm sick of all that. I'm sick of all that. And so it's been instructive to deal with the limitations. But as much as I'm looking forward to coming back and like, you know, seeing my girlfriend, seeing my place, and we don't live together. I mean, might have an empty apartment. Hopefully, I mean, I prepaid enough power because it's a thing. You got to prepay, right? I prepaid power. I should have power for the year, basically. I've been paying rent. I've I've paid for a season of rent. I've it's been more than a complete season since I've been home. And I paid like full cycle of rent. So for me, the reckoning was about thinking of it in terms of where am I maximizing what I do. And so I went through trying to make it work in a certain way in China, trying to trying to bridge those gaps and having some success doing it, but being really dissatisfied ultimately with the results. So my my particular tale is one of continuing to keep like my my little lily pad there in Beijing, keep my spot. I love my place. I'd be happy to keep it kind of for the duration as my place in Beijing. But in terms of long term, I mean, life is taking me elsewhere. In so many ways, it's like trying to do anything with one arm tied behind your back all the time.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_09I know that if I was totally fluent, it'd be the same thing. Yeah, I mean, you have to self-censor and you have to accommodations constantly. There are a lot of human benefits, you know. I mean, my empathy has has shot through the roof in a lot of ways because, you know, you have empathy for your fellow person and you have empathy for uh less fortunate people and and you know live living in China and even being like a being a middle class white guy for China. I mean, you know, you're fortunate to see, you know, I have a lot of friends who are very successful in in China, uh, Chinese, Chinese friends, and to see the extremes, you know, having I mean, I've traveled a lot through fourth and fifth year cities, and you know, it's it's it's a it's a humbling thing, you know, but I I wouldn't trade it for anything. But I'm not my life isn't to be a documentarian of them.
SPEAKER_05Hey everyone, just let me break into Brendan's virtual expat story here for a bit to mention a podcast you might be interested in. What podcast? My podcast. I'm Greg, longtime expat and creator and co-host of the Bangkok Podcast. Every week, my good friend Ed and I release a new show that explores one aspect of life in Thailand's capital. From chat style shows about understanding Thai culture, finding a place to live and dealing with reverse culture shock, to interview shows with linguists, politicians, celebrities, and Buddhist monks. We help you understand Bangkok like no other show can. Check it out at Bangkok Podcast.com. All right, back to Brendan.
SPEAKER_04Part of what you were talking about is being true to your creative self, and you're willing to compromise to some extent, but you have to only do it to the extent where it still is grounding and productive and a part of reflecting who you are and what you're doing.
SPEAKER_08Right.
SPEAKER_04Having said that, you have three very different podcasts out there right now. Who do you see as your audience? Who are you talking to in these different projects?
SPEAKER_09So with Big Fish in the Middle Kingdom, I think it was a combination, and it is to some extent. I'm still going to put a show up there when I have like the perfect guest. It'll be kind of an irregular thing. I'll use it for my my China check-ins that are, you know, more personal or self-indulgent, basically, than what I do on how China works, because that's a interview show. So I'll do, I'll do catch-up episodes with like my friends on how China works. I know that the audience is slash was heavy on people who already can relate. Either they are China-based expats, or they're Chinese people who deal with expats, or they're expats someplace else, or they're just, you know, foreigners who are curious. I mean, they're they're they're in another country, but they're curious about mostly about China, or they're considering doing an expat thing themselves, or they did and looking back wistfully, some comment, some version of that. And that's great. And I'm very happy for anyone listening for whatever reason. But a bonus for me has been hearing from people who have no particular China interest and may stumbled in for some other reason, but like the kind of conversations that I would have with the given guest. And because I've had such a huge range of people, and as all of us, if you do podcasts regular basis, you end up talking to a ton of different people if you're lucky. And you know, you have a combination of luck with scheduling and then work at it. I've had such a range of people that I might have somebody who's just a stone cold expert on something or is known for something, and maybe that's why somebody discovered my show. And the fact that we're talking about a China-related angle on big fish was kind of incidental to that person. So that's that's cool. Um, with how China works, the first season was done as a crash course in how to be China Smart. And so we had we took that approach, we heavily researched and outlined the first 40, uh, 40 episodes of that. And then now we switched into doing interviews. And because I've been traveling, we've been able to do some three-way interviews where there's like you know, Skype involved, but mostly it's been thinking interviewing people solo, and then she and I would discuss before and or after. I would send in questions that she would, you know, has asked sometimes of the guests, so I'm kind of represented in the interview. But so for that show, it's people who are trying to make sense of China with a real stake in it, and then it's for Chinese people who are trying to go global, and that's our angle on that show for foreigners who want to be China smart or Chinese who want to go global, so understand better how the outside world looks at your culture, use things from your culture to relate it to well, here's what's different in the West, and blah, blah, blah. So it's a way to help people have to have something they can grab onto on either side to understand the other a little better to try to improve understanding. And so, um, and then with this new with if I knew you better, it is meant to be just my sort of more universal long form chat show where we get into deeper subjects without being pretentious about it. But I mean, where are we going to you know, talk about the real whys of things and and dig in and talk about failures and what you learned and things you've been credit for that you don't feel like you've fully earned and why.
SPEAKER_04When you were creating the most recent one, if if I knew you better, what what were you thinking about who might be listening?
SPEAKER_09I really hope that it is as broadly interesting as possible. You know, it's my version of like a Mark Marin type of a show or Tim Ferris or you know, a less than three-hour Joe Rogan, uh, you know, with probably less talking about on it gym equipment. You know, with with less plugging into psychedelics. And I have no judgments, I'm a big fan, but he's holding the fort down pretty well. Yeah. Um, so it's it's meant to be more, you know, and with with this new show, I mean, I'm just gonna say this uh and and hopefully it doesn't come off in a in the wrong way, but I'm basically going to be trying to get people with a bigger profile. You know, I want the show to be heard by a wide audience ultimately, because it is meant to be a professional endeavor. And um, so I'm wanting it to possibly have the biggest audience, and then who's actually listening depends on what someone's interest is in the given um guest who I'm talking with. And it is, you know, it's a conversation. So it's uh my approach here is again is more Mark Mara and less Larry King, who is a genius. He's one of the references for out interview people, but he's like the old school, it's not about him at all. And you know, there's always a bit of me in here just because I've had such a weird kind of a random, like kind of a you know, kind of a forest gump in in in the entertainment business or something with these random situations I've ended up in. So it's not entertainment specific, yeah, although it's going to skew a little heavy, especially in these first dozen or so episodes, just because that's I've been taking advantage of my travels to interview people. My travels are because of entertainment. So there's actors, directors, producers. But um, yeah, there's I've got like me a businessman, I've got I've got some other people that have nothing to do with entertainment.
SPEAKER_04I did about almost a year of podcasting before I started interviewing, and I went into it resistantly. But at first I thought it would be cheating if I interviewed people I knew. And then I realized that was the silliest thing on earth. Because I mean, part of being an expat and living in different places and meeting really cool people, as I'm sure you have too, is oh my gosh, wait a minute. I can actually bring them onto the podcast and have a lot of people enjoy their awesomeness, not just me and our, you know, that's absolutely one of the benefits that I've enjoyed from this too.
SPEAKER_09Because whether it was with big fish and I knew some pretty interesting people already back in China, and you know, because you know, comedians and actors and some China business, like entertainment business people who were old China hands and had a lot to say. And so I knew people who I who I just knew would be either fun or funny or super interesting and valuable to share their info with people. And so that's completely what drove me to get Big Fish going in the first place. And it's just increased from there. And with how China works, Ying Ying, because she is really very uh very friendly and fun, but she's very serious, you know, and is known as this cross-cultural speaker and thinker. And so she's bringing on weightier academic type folks who are really successful business people or you know, people who have really a pedigree in their field. And so it's it's gone from like interesting people without always having I mean, they have you know, whatever their credentials are, but but so how china works, it's kind of up the game with a certain type of guest. And so with this, with this new show, I'm also wanting to be able to bring on people who I mean, there'll probably be some, you know, probably some famous names uh at a certain point. They're definitely people who are known in their industries already, or some of the people I'm recording. So um, yeah, I want to I want to hear from people who I want to share that information with other people, you know, what the from from from folks who have really accomplished something that's just quite out of the ordinary, ideally.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_09That's what I'm interested in.
SPEAKER_04Okay, I've skipped the biggest elephant in the room possible. You've gone from film to podcasting. Um, it sounds like the medium doesn't matter, but just out of curiosity, how what are the differences that you've noticed in what are the differences that you've noticed in the switch from the film medium to podcasting medium? And actually you started with music. So from music to film to podcasting, oh what is what are the biggest differences in creating these creatures?
SPEAKER_09So the so the biggest differences between these three different mediums are that of course with music it's this complete expression and it's functioning heavily on an emotional level because it's music. And so that that reaches people a different way. With uh film and TV and so I haven't switched from film and TV. I added podcasting to the mix and I'm correcting that because the that that's the that's part of my own reckoning was having to be super clear about that because you know I've spent this lifetime basically um developing film and TV chops and and and you know credentials and skills. And so um podcasting is an outgrowth of being frustrated by the film and TV business in China because I've said this before on my own shows and I think I've said it talking with other people on interviews but I started podcasting for a lot of reasons but one of the biggest personal reasons I mean so they're all the high-minded things and you know sharing these people I'm meeting sharing them with the world and really enjoying those conversations and keeping myself in practice was related to this but essentially it was as a mental health exercise because it takes forever to do film and TV projects and with podcasting though it's quite humble and modest you know it's it's I mean I'm the whole shop at this point. So I'm the producer and the host and I edit my own stuff and I can't see a way not doing that basically at the way that I do a show now I can't see handing it off to somebody. And also I mean I have the skills I have the professional abilities to do all that but it's about the creative choices right of what you keep or what you lose and how you do it. Although I like I love nothing more than an interview that literally I top and tail it I trim the top trim the back and there are no edits in between that's my favorite thing in the world. And I have a fair amount of those especially on this new show I have very few edits so far in the in the shows I've been recording. So a mental health exercise because although it's couldn't be more modest it's a little production that I can do the whole thing. I can do you know I every week top to bottom beginning to end I could do it I could deliver I could ship a thing and that's that's been the most personally satisfying aspect of it. But you know film and TV is is basically the world's most collaborative art form and requires the most people and the biggest budgets and et cetera et cetera so podcasting is the polar opposite of that and so it doesn't scratch all the same itches but it has a place in the in the personal universe of these things.
SPEAKER_04Right right I actually in my head even though I said switched I did mean where you were going with adding podcasting to the mix. So apologies about that. Oh not non-taken not non-taken I completely and utterly understand the frustration part. Like I said I started a PhD program and left because um and part of why my language podcast exists is because of my frustration with uh not to get too into it but my frustration with language learning in the academic realm and how isolated and small it is and how it doesn't help the language learner. So I completely and utterly understand that part of podcasting. You mentioned being co-located. How the heck do you juggle all of these things with being in two places?
SPEAKER_09Well not very well frankly not as well as I would like um the tricky part my my favorite you know sometimes people you know when you get a great new app that you love and you want oh do you have this or have you tried that I have I mean I don't need to advertise for them but but on my it's a iOS app I think they have an Android version. This it's it's my my app called Time Scroller. It's just my little it's my clock for planning meetings and this and that and you can add you know places. So that's what I use all the time. So so that so how do I deal with it? I write everything down. Like I I I've developed a calendar system. I you know the the tricky part is I mean there's the coordinating of the timing you because too late is not good because I'm usually zonked and too early is not good because I'm not awake. Depending on where I am that's the tricky part in terms of doing podcasts. In terms of my life that's what I've been dealing with. For me the great part is that you can be connected no matter where you are and of course the downside is that you have to to assert yourself even if just to yourself about these are my boundaries and this is how I'm gonna deal with certain things uh in terms of what are your what are you know I this concept of work hours I have a concept of office hours and you're laughing because you live in China and the boundaries are you know fluid are are not so much yes a fluid's a good word um and what color is that liquid and is it in my face? That's that's that's the reality of the fluidity of the work hours. It's slightly vulgar but uh hopefully it was generic enough that it can still be funny and make the point without cursing too many people out. But that's the that's the result. You know my my Chinese friends it's like oh yeah so hey this is hey random thing which I I hear these stories and here's my version of it in English. Okay because we don't know what we're doing and we don't know how to plan and there's no we have no respect for your life we're all going to be working here until we're done and that might just be 12 straight days and it might be 18 hour days. Yay yay fight fight fight that's my version of that that's a bunch of horse shit in my opinion. There you go. That's what I think about that. That's what I think about 996. That's the work culture of the tech environment it's starting to finally get some pushback it's like oh you work 9 a.m to 9 p.m six days a week much more often you know you go in and you're there super late and then sometimes you're you're not you're quite often there on the seventh day. And you know it's it's a big conversation and people do like really weighty podcasts and people are people writing their dissertation right now about these are the sacrifices China must make as it seeks to you know catch up with the world and accelerate and dominate okay that's great. If that's your trip you you do you you you you do you you do you all right but uh but meanwhile so so that's my I mean and I'm having a little fun saying all this I'm I'm not really that full of myself people who know me. I mean I got a giant smile on my face you can even see with just laptop glow. I don't mean any of this in a self too self-important pretentious way. It's easy enough to do that which is part of the reckoning of yourself. But if you're lucky to be a you know a privileged type expat as opposed to a refugee which is you know something that's a topic that comes up on some of our friend shows a lot. Yeah yeah yeah so that that's that's part of my come to Jesus meeting for myself was what am I here to do? Why am I doing it? What's important? What do I care about? What do I not care about? Like what you know what are my values that's what that's what everybody's trying to figure out these days. Yeah. And the reality is that I mean I when I come back to China part of what I say I've had my moments where it's been more rude and and I don't want to be that kind of guy. I mean to me it's funny to be so blatant sometimes when there's so much effort to be very you know mannered and I mean I am not available 24 hours a day regardless. I'm not available 24 hours a day. You know I I I'm not a brain surgeon I I'm not I'm not like a transplant surgeon on standby ready to hop on the helicopter and put in the kidney on somebody who needs to be available. I I mean I make film and TV and I do and I talk in the mic for me having some control of that is is absolutely crucial. And I'm fortunate that I basically work for myself so I can do that but I mean I end up on projects or where I'm partnered with people or hired by people to do things and then of course you have to respect deliverables and this and that. But I I don't do China work style anymore. I don't do it. I don't do it not interested I don't have to so I've taken my ball and I've been going back to you know back to back to LA I mean to spent the better part of a month in Paris developing a project which is great hopefully it happens. But yeah so when I'm back in China in a weird way it's going to be it's waiting for the next big development on a project to take me back out of China. And meanwhile I'll be doing my podcasts and my own time but but I have my alerts like on my phone to 10 to 10 are the hours that I get messages from the world. I don't I I don't get alerts for that other time. I just I don't get them you know I can find them if I go to the special screen you know and and and there's ways I mean if there's something that's crucial there are ways people you people can dial the number in the phone will ring at any 24 hours a day because almost nobody has my number and if they do then they better they'd better know not to call it at 3 a.m just hey what are you doing? Finding ways to kill you how about you what are you up to?
SPEAKER_04Oh man so it sounds like over the time that you've been in China that there's been not just an an offline kind of reevaluating of what you're doing and when you'll do it but also an online evaluating with your screen time and completely so there's there's a really beautiful symmetry of what you've said about those two your offline and your online life and the the boundaries and and and introspection that you've done with those.
SPEAKER_09Do you think that would have happened had you not moved overseas I've thought about I mean I had too much kind of to do when when you're when when you're busy you don't have time to think about it. When you're not busy you have too much time to think about this kind of stuff. And so I I've had both plenty um yes that the opportunity to be reflective has definitely come up because there it's been a lot of I mean film and TV in general is a hurry up and wait business. Shoots are that way until you are needed to do the thing you do you're sitting around and then when you're needed you got to be totally dialed in you go in there like an assassin and you do your thing and you get out and the next person does their thing. So with China it's been a lot of that reckoning of time management. We were talking earlier and I don't know how this if this will connect as directly as it does in my brain but I think the thing that I was the the the button I wanted to put on something that came up earlier relates to what you just said which is because of my you know I mean I've we've done done a few public events and there there's a path there's an alternate universe in which I'm in front of a room with a screen and a clicker in my hand and going hi people from so and so company let me tell you about working in China click you know click here's the next slide and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. You know I could easily be one of those people who's up there you know chatting about something with PowerPoint and and tons of my friends do this. This is not a generic put down I'm simply saying for me there there's an alternate universe it's the it's probably right next door to the one that I'm living in where I'm doing that. And I even had to reconcile do I want to be a face forward let me have to care about how my skin looks you know let me have to like manage how I look and go out in front of people and do this thing where that's important right and to be like someone's accessible guide to those things. And so I mean I love to teach I I actually don't when I'm not doing this I I'm not the chatty guy at the party. I'm not that talkative I'm actually extremely introverted. And I play an introvert when we flip on the mics and start doing this stuff. Or if I have to you know in the entertainment business for meetings. But otherwise I'm pretty quiet actually so that was part of it. And again I love China and I love so much Chinese culture. I don't against certain of the practices that are kind of dehumanizing or soul crushing such as the work hours and certain things you know I'm not about that as you would say but um other things I mean I certainly respect certain things from the culture and the deep history and so I enjoy being able to be as local as I can.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_09You know and then I just have to I define where my boundaries are about that stuff. And what do I want to do? And so there's kind of a joke one of my nicknames in a few circles of my friends is jokingly Hollywood panda and and I mean I've got friends who are 20, 30 year Hollywood people dealing with China, Chinese friends who've been in Hollywood for 20, 30 years. They're people far more experienced than me top to bottom on both cultures, but I am one of these people that hasn't you know enough experience enough credit that I'm kind of lumped in with some of these folks who all I consider basically mostly mentors or look to that way. And the skill to articulate it in the way that you do I think right and so and so that's honestly a thing that I sort of had to face is like okay well there is a career that's adjacent because the reasons I moved it goes down a big rabbit hole but I could say without going down that giant rabbit hole the main reasons I moved were I mean it was kind of the adventure that I was looking for. That's not one of the reasons that was the context there were two things that were happening currently in the film versus TV is very very different especially in China. It's a little more similar in the West now but there was this promise stated promises about the capital markets opening up in China and then there was uh I'm paraphrasing how I said this to a friend of mine you know so so in terms of the economics of how the film business works there there was this expectation across all industries that the financial markets were going to open up and that was going to make cross-border business you know easier. And then the other thing that was developing related to my business you know no one thought it was going to be like Paris during the Enlightenment but there was a feeling that certain kinds of you know liberalization is the wrong word and that's a four letter word in China but there was a feeling that there would be a little bit more relaxing. Okay we're gonna slowly like open up the valve a little bit a little more of the outside world into this walled garden. And then starting in 2018 both things went hard the other way hard the other way which you know living there and being engaged in the stuff you're engaged in. So you went Hollywood I mean there are all these China Hollywood deals and that's both place specific and also just metaphorically it could be China and Britain or whatever. But there are a lot so many of these deals and there are cultural reasons why many of them I would say the majority of them probably were never real deals in the first place. You know it's like not but even in the places where there is mutual understanding mutual good faith mutual intent so many of these deals ultimately fell apart anyway because of the financial restrictions. Right. Trying to try not to you know trying to avoid money laundering and capital flight blah blah blah but that killed like the little little window window okay of my intention that that was the main death death bell for that yeah and then the other thing was just the fact that content wise we're always going to have two industries because language and because culture it's almost impossible to do a successful co-production the handful that exists kids like kids and family related stuff or travel docu stuff. Right stuff stuff stuff that's like G or P or like PG, not even PG 13. Like stuff like that and you know animation because you can revoice characters right yeah so that's those are your opportunities but this is basically you know stuff that I basically don't do. I mean I've done some docustuff and I I love documentaries. Yeah there's no there's no money in it tell you a secret there's no money in documentaries. You know I mean there they're like three people who make a living making documentaries and you know Michael Moore and Ken Burns are two of them.
SPEAKER_08Right.
SPEAKER_09You know so it's a bit of an exaggeration to make the point.
SPEAKER_04This conversation is the ex is the perfect example of how different our virtual lives are and our geographic lives and and how different the conversations can go depending on what people do in those two places. So with that in mind, knowing that the people that come on here are expats or were expats in one or more places and that we're dissecting their their virtual or online brain what questions are missing? What should I ask future guests on the show?
SPEAKER_09I think that there's something to be considered here because I've done it in passing you know scratching my beard moments there's probably there's probably a few PhD uh dissertations to be written on this topic or some master's thesi or whatever. And there have been things about how does your online persona influence your offline reality and is what's the what's the difference? Is it you know being unified is a thing. I think it's interesting how how have your core values as you identify them how have those core values change during your time living abroad and why and the online specific question is how does how does the way you must represent yourself to be socially acceptable in your new home how has that influenced who you really are fundamentally because your online our online persona is ultimately it's like our agent the shiny prettier happier slimmer version of all of us right how close is that to your real self? Is that the the essence Yeah yeah in all serious in in something approaching seriousness for me um because I actually am very serious that's why I throw in all the humor to diffuse and you know try to examine some weighty weird stuff without it being too heavy or coming off too self-important you know I mean Carlin is more of a role model for me than probably any single speaker.
SPEAKER_04You actually created two of them so which one do you want to answer? How have your still answer one question by creating two more yeah yeah yeah well now they're on the list of questions that will possibly be asked all of them right so which one do you want to answer? How have your core values changed living abroad or how does the way you represent yourself online show us your real self? Which one do you want? I want you to answer the second one but it's ultimately I'll answer the second one.
SPEAKER_09I'll answer the second one so how does my online how does in my case how is my online representation and my and and my my actual self how have I reconciled these things is kind of the bad way to restate my own question. I can answer this by relating another friend's story my friend Carl King who does the music on my podcasts spectacular filmmaker, writer director producer editor composer had been a big cult musician he was he's actually famous in certain progressive music circles under a couple of his different pseudonyms that he had and so there was a point where he went through a bit of a and we talked about this himself and I'm paraphrasing to summarize this he basically went through a bit of a breakdown. He had this existential crisis of who the hell am I? Yeah because he had all these personas and his different personas were known and one of them was like a real edge they were always kind of edgy people and he's really sweet and kind but this is how he agitated and how he stirred the pot and how he challenged himself by challenging other people. And you know sometimes it's probably slightly on the trollish dickish side of things not being horrible not like some political person with an axe to grind but just artistically oh that band sucks and here's why and then very very you know intelligently tearing something apart. And it's like eh he grew up but he had this crisis to integrate his personalities and so we all is suited him so he ended up coming back into his own self and just being Carl King and what's funny his website is Carl Kingdom Carl Kingdom.com and you know and and in a way because it's it's perfect it's his kingdom of all his stuff but he but he's just himself and so for me I've always just been myself but the necessity of you know I mean there are a lot of things a lot of aspects to this I mean I kind of let it all hang out to to a degree I mean I have some boundaries and sense of propriety when I need to and and so I'm I'm always evaluating like how much can we kind of have fun versus how straight does it need to be but I err toward the side of let me be candid and and again if we were live on CNN I'd be totally focused and giving you the bullet point type answers and this is a different format right yeah but um exactly and it's part of why I like you and I we this this is the format that I love. When we flip the roles it's the same thing except I'm asking more questions and you're doing more talking and for me integrating those personalities you know I didn't have distinct like splits in my brain but I was aware okay so here's you know professional entertain entertainment professional is kind of a broad category but especially as I veered toward oh maybe doing some sort of corporate consulting public speaking and promoting my the idea of promoting myself as a speaker is something I've looked at three times in my life it's come up and it's you know some and there are these great training programs that teach you how to do this stuff and I've been involved in one of those years ago in a in a different role like kind of like junior facilitator in these things and like an incubator before you called them incubators. And and and you know figuring out that I just want to be me all right I just for better or worse I'm just gonna be myself. And so there's the China friendly version which is simply I mean I don't post too much polemic sort of stuff anyway because nobody really cares. I mean you know no one's opinion's been changed by what someone screamed at them on the internet. So I'm not that guy. But trying to navigate what I actually care about and what I'm thinking about and what I want to share. And then there's the promotional aspect which it's I always feel like a dirty whore and you have to figure out how do you promote something and put something out there in a way that's necessary and gets the point across, but that people don't just go do Shut up. We don't care. You know, you don't want to turn people off. You know, finding the balance is always that's the never-ending challenge of all this. Finding the balance between how you are online. And it's not that much different from having to navigate socially the reality of just existing in the world. And you know, Western societies have been going through this with the B2 movement and things like that. And, you know, working in Hollywood as a metaphorical place, even if it's not my physical place, is something I'm keenly aware of because we tend to have people who are really pushing the envelope on, you know, both in terms of the social justice side, and you have people on the free speech side, you know, who are often at opposites, right? And are the people who are actually fighting sometimes through different proxies. So yeah, it's it's it's been a learning experience for me, and it's one I'm still dealing with. Trying to be as straightforward as I can be and be, you know, feel like I'm being true to myself, but uh keeping my keeping my beast intact.
SPEAKER_04That's the goal. I totally get that. And I think that's one of the appeals of your projects, is it it's it's never unclear how real is Brendan being. I think it's pretty clear for the listeners that you're you, that that decision is coming across, at least to these earbuds. So thank you so much, Brendan, for being on here. I'm sure our listeners will have a lot of stuff to feedback on. How and where should they find you online?
SPEAKER_09Well, thanks, thanks for having me. It's it's really been a lot of fun to chat with you and to kind of ramble on here that in some places. I hope the listeners uh enjoyed it. And if you want to find out more about me, but I I'm centralizing everything on my main website. You can go to crazyinagoodway.com. You can track on my podcast, how China Works Podcast.com is its own site, but my projects, and then also I'm linking through. I've been streamlining the site, I've been throwing pages away like crazy. Yeah. So reach me there. Um, their contact options, contact page, and you can search me on the socials. I'm it's kind of easy to find.
SPEAKER_04I'm really happy to follow on Instagram.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, yeah, yeah. Instagram is fun, and and and I've noticed that my friends under 30, that seems to be the main way that they friended up and even chat, you know, they use the chat on Instagram as their main chat these days, it seems like.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so much. Hey, Steph here again. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Virtual X Pets Podcast, and thank you to Brendan Davis for coming on with all of his projects. I know how precious his time is, and I'm really, really grateful that he was able to have the long chat that we had for this episode and for him being just so genuine, so funny, and such a good storyteller. So thank you very much, Brendan. We are definitely going to follow you online at crazyinagoodway.com because he is and we like it that way. Thank you, also goes out to Damon Castillo, who graciously allows us to use his music from the Mess of Me album. And I realize I've just been playing snippets behind us talking so far in the Virtual Expats podcast. So after a brief surprise here, I'm going to play the full song. It's also called Mess of Me. It's the title track of that album with lyrics, and Damon's voice is amazing. So you're gonna love this. So please do listen up for this one. You might want to get up and start moving around too, because it's a it's a pretty jazzy number. You can find Damon's information at Damoncastillo.com. It's D-A-M-O-N-C-A-S-T-I-L-L-O.com. If you are lucky enough to live in Coastal California, you can find him all over the place. Uh, he does a lot of concerts in Central Coast California, like around San Luis Obispo area where he is based, but he also goes up and down the coast as well. So do get on his tour calendar there. You will want to see him and his band live. They are amazing. For more virtual expat podcast episodes, feel free to visit us at virtualexpats.podbeam.com, or literally just search for us as virtual expats in your podcast app. Uh, feel free to reach out to me with any questions, comments, or to volunteer to be a guest on the podcast. Again, it's S T P H F U C C I O Everywhere, everywhere. Thank you so much, and more soon. Hello.
SPEAKER_09Okay. Yeah. Um, does it sound good on your end?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you sound great.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, I mean, I was great. It's it's right. It's it's right the second. Yeah.
SPEAKER_12Every day, working in roll through streets, picking up garbage, every day, since I've been here with you, picking up knowledge, hauling trash, to the yard, taking class, and my college very deep, garbage deep, I can't sleep. You've made a mess of me.
SPEAKER_10You've made a mess of me. You've made a mess of me. You've made a mess of me.
SPEAKER_11I won't take another dirty job.
SPEAKER_12Take your teeth out in the garden, spill your cup. Now I'm stuck cleaning up, digging your party. You're the free fit of me. Now my heart is starting to harden. Every drink makes me think of the stink. Who's made a mess of me?
SPEAKER_10Who's made a mess of me? Who's made a mess of me?
SPEAKER_11Who's made a mess of me? I won't take another dirty job.
SPEAKER_10Wait a minute, made them best and beat them back and beat me.
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