Then I m started moving a lot and as I was moving I became much more interested in reading about books that showed other cultures, people living in other countries, other religions as well. Because I was always interested in the world, so obviously books are the best way to learn about the world because you can't travel literally everywhere.
SPEAKER_03Welcome to the Bookish Expats Podcast, where we explore places and cultures from an expat's point of view. Yes, we have had a name change, and there are more lovely changes coming to your ears by the time we start season four in July 2019. In this podcast episode, we talked to Tajana, in her words, quote, a German married to an Indian Chinese or a Chinese Indian, depending on the mood of the day, unquote. Tajana grew up wanting to live in different countries, so she went into hospitality in order to do so. Of course, at the same time, she read voraciously. In fact, while living in Dubai, one of the six cities she has called home thus far, she met her husband. Just before she moved to India to be with him, she started reading the works of Indian author Chitam Bhagat and thus began her bookducation of India and Indian culture. I was fortunate enough to sit down with Tachana in my home in Shanghai and chat with her about some of Chitan's books that had an impact on her life in India. We also dig into her bookology, her favorite books and places to read them, and so much more. A special thank you needs to go to Nicole from the Expat cast, who started an avalanche of bookish things happening to this podcast episode. One is Expat Rewind, going exclusively bookish, is a direct result of Nicole interviewing me about bookish things on her podcast. I'll put the link to that interview below. Two is Tatjana Listen's particular episode with me and Nicole and contacted me to find out what bookish places she should go to while she was visiting Shanghai. It is that conversation that led to this very interview. So thank you, Nicole. Hashtag booklove. Without further ado, let's dig into Tatjana's expat book story. Thank you so much, Tajana, for being on Expat Rewind, the bookish version. Thank you for having me. This year we're veering the podcast away from any artifact that helped an expat in their first year in a country towards specifically books. You're our first expat guest to come in with a fiction book. So I'm very excited for today. Me too. Yay! Can you give us an idea of your geographical history? Where have you lived in the world?
SPEAKER_02Sure. I'm German born and raised. I grew up in Germany, went to school there. However, uh moved to the Netherlands to study there, hotel management. And uh part of my studies was in internship, a half year in Manchester, UK, and then uh back to the Netherlands, then one year of work in Switzerland, Zurich, and then I got the opportunity to go to Dubai and was living there for three years. And that's also where I met my husband or then boyfriend, now husband, and he moved uh quickly back to India where he was from, and I stayed on in Dubai, so we did two and a half years roughly uh long distance. And eventually, obviously, if if you want to bring the relationship forward, uh obviously we want to be together. So eventually I moved to India, and that was uh five and a half years ago, five years in Mumbai and the last six months in Goa.
SPEAKER_03Will you stay in India for a long time now?
SPEAKER_02Or no, we never know. So my husband is still in hospitality, uh in the hospitality, and we basically move around every two to three years, and we usually get to know like maybe a month out. So that's that's us. A month? Yeah, usually it's quite quick. Once once it's decided, it's uh get and go.
SPEAKER_03Right. That's very quick, especially with the family.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I like eventually we hope obviously that once uh our daughter starts at school that we will be able to get a bit more of a uh ahead.
SPEAKER_03That's your geographical movement. How about your book movement? When did you start becoming a bookworm?
SPEAKER_02Quite frankly, I've always been a bookworm. Um, I remember reading during high school, etc., as well, uh quite a lot as well, a lot of fiction always. And then I moved to the Netherlands, and obviously during studies, because you read so much for your studies, there was a little less reading for pleasure. However, I I what I do remember is that I always like loved bookstores and libraries, etc. So that was always in my life. I think then also during the time when I was working full-time in the UK, Switzerland, and Dubai, it's the same thing. It's like a lot of bookstare stories I remember, but I don't remember much about the books I read. So I read very few books. Then I moved to India because I didn't have a full-time job. I obviously had the opportunity to read much more, and also to I that's actually when I started tracking my books, which is I think the reason why I remember much more about the books that I read like in the last few years.
SPEAKER_03What do you mean tracking your books? What do you do?
SPEAKER_02I use Goodreads a lot, and I just started uh being members of book clubs as well. And I think the moment you start discussing books, obviously after you read them, the more they stuck, stick in your mind in a way. How many book clubs are you in now? So, right now, because we just literally moved a half year ago, so I haven't gotten any local ones as of now. I have I think two online ones, mainly Facebook book clubs. In Mumbai, I had two book clubs like that physically met. So one was uh I was part of the American Women's Club in um Mumbai, so that was an expat club. Uh I was part of their book club, and I did one local Mumbai car um book club there, so that was very interesting too. Have you run any book clubs? Yeah, so the one for the American Women's Club actually was sort of run by me, yeah.
SPEAKER_03When you first started reading a lot, what kind of things were you reading?
SPEAKER_02So I read pretty much always only fiction, and uh in the beginning I read a lot of uh history historic fiction, a lot of classics also. So I've remember starting off with things like Jane Austen. I loved uh Alexandre Dumas, who I think is way underrated. I love that guy. Uh so uh Three Musketeers, I think it's fairly well known. Then I m started moving a lot, and as I was moving, I became much more interested in reading about books that showed other cultures, people living in other countries, other religions as well, because I was always interested in the world. So obviously, books are the best way to learn about the world because you can't travel literally everywhere. And so, yeah, that's what I uh read a little more. And after I left my full-time job and moved to India, I was reading a little bit more nonfiction just because I felt that I needed something to occupy my my mind, um, and that I felt was non-fiction just to learn basically about various fields.
SPEAKER_03Are most people in your family bookworms as well?
SPEAKER_02So the funny thing is, my m apparently my dad's aunt, who I've never met, basically uh my my dad inherited her book collection, which was massive, like a library. However, that was like really those old leather-bound, really, really fancy books, and some of them in fact in old writing, which is really difficult to read as well. Some of them are really like classic books that I read as well. So my parents read, but I wouldn't necessarily call them bookworms as such. So once in a while, a book, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Gotcha. Yeah, no, mine too. My parents didn't really read a lot. My mom my mom read more of like interesting, kind of quirky articles in a newspaper, and my dad read like oh not comic books, but like joke books.
SPEAKER_02Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I I don't know, but I I think all of my my b older brother, older sister, and I read a lot of a lot of different things, and I'm not quite sure where we picked it up from.
SPEAKER_02So it's the funniest thing. Sounds like honestly, for me, I think it's I don't know how I get there, but we were living in a small village, so maybe it's just the fact that there wasn't much entertainment around, but there was a library, and so we had a library pass, and that was just you know, a lot to explore there basically. So I think that maybe how would have been part of it. I don't know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, um for me it was also pre-internet, so that was the only source of other information.
SPEAKER_02And actually, we were living together with my grandma. I remember she was uh reading quite a bit, and she was reading also, like for instance, they made it into a movie The Geisha, the last no, what like the the history of a geisha or that that it became quite famous, so like those kind of stuff as well. Because actually the funny thing is that my uh grandparents together with my um my dad lived in China in the 60s for two years. Where? Uh so they were in Beijing back then. So I think that's probably one of the reasons why I was always more interested in the East versus in the West, sort of. That's always been more interesting. So I think that's also why my grandma read those kind of stories, sort of from her history background.
SPEAKER_03What were they doing in Beijing for two years?
SPEAKER_02My my granddad, if I remember the story right, my granddad worked for the uh like uh trading ministry, whatever, sort of thing. And so he was posted there, and my office my grandma came with him, and my dad was but my dad was like two years at that point or something, very, very young. But apparently he spoke Chinese first, actually, because he had a nanny, a Chinese-speaking nanny, and that was the first language, but obviously lost completely.
SPEAKER_03Are you going up to Beijing on this trip? Or no, we don't.
SPEAKER_02No, uh we won't have the time because my husband is here on work and will be here for this week.
SPEAKER_03One more question before we get to the specific books that you literally have in front of you, which is so cool. I'm so excited that you brought the physical books. Oh, and this is a good time to give a shout out to Nicole from the Expatcast. Can you share the story of how you're now in my living room in Shanghai?
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Yeah, this has actually been really funny. So I'm uh fairly new to podcasts as well, in terms of listening to podcasts as well. And I just found Nicole's podcast uh maybe three, four weeks ago, and I just loved it because it's the best way to find out about expats and what they're doing. And she isn't living in Ger as an expat, living in Germany. I am from Germany. And so I listened to her, I basically binge listen to her podcast and heard the one that you did as well, where she interviewed you as specifically on books. And then two weeks ago, just out of the blue became us traveling to Shanghai. It's like, wait, Stephanie's in Shanghai, and I thought you're the perfect person to ask about what bookstore to go to in Shanghai, and that's how we actually connected over Instagram, and uh yeah, then overnight literally it became this, yeah, let's beat up and let's do this podcast.
SPEAKER_03Well, it's funny because that bookish interview that I did with Nicole was the reason that I'm reshaping Expat Rewind this year. Because I I was like, okay, now that I've been on yours, I need to keep talking about books because I realized even though it's a huge part of my life, I hadn't actually brought it over into the podcasting part of my life. And that's ridiculous.
SPEAKER_02No, no, no, it's not because I actually have two separate Instagram accounts, and one is an extra expat Instagram account, the other one is a book Instagram account. Because it feels like if you you talk a lot about books and then there's one expat story, or vice versa, a lot of expat stuff and then one book, and I felt it's just never all like it doesn't always like line up so that it fits together.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly. But during that chat with Nicole, it did start to, and I was like, oh, and I and I was kind of wavering with trying out different things. We did like in the first season of Expat Rewind, not to get too meta, but I'm probably going to. We did photographs and Twitter streams and all kinds of different things, and it never quite felt right. So when we had that conversation at the end, I was like, Nicole, you need to come on and do a book interview. Yeah, I need to reshape this. So by the end of 2019, it's gonna be completely just books because of that very interview. So yeah, super, super crazy shout out to Nicole if you guys aren't listening to her podcast. Okay, the final question before we get to those books. When you moved countries, did your book reading change? You mentioned you went from fiction to non-fiction, but were there any other changes?
SPEAKER_02I think it was less a country change and more the occupation change that made the difference because as said that in the beginning I was working full-time or studying and then working full-time, and so reading was just purely uh leisure and sort of shutting down after work, versus then I moved to India, I didn't have a full-time work. So at that point I could uh branch out more towards what I was uh what I could and want to read, and that's what I did.
SPEAKER_03That sounds like a beautiful change.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it was, it was lovely, and I think I otherwise I might not have gone there, but I'm very happy that I did. And in fact, one of the first books I read at after that was Lean In by Sheryl Sandberg, CEO of Facebook. That that was a brilliant book. Like it was a pity I didn't read that while I was still working, because I could have applied that to my work and helped other people with that book, and it just yeah, it came too late for that, but obviously you can still apply it now. But yeah.
SPEAKER_03So let's dive in. What book did you pick for this episode?
SPEAKER_02I didn't exactly. I more actually picked an author more than a book as such. As I was mentioning, I uh met my husband who's an Indian Chinese, and we met in the UE and he went back fairly quickly, so it became clear to me that we're gonna be married, but obviously I might live in India as well. So I was really interested to learn more about the country, not just as an expert, sort of okay, uh, you know, how how do people live, but a little more about society. When all of this went through my mind, I happened to see a book uh in the bookstore, and I picked it up, and it was by an author called Chaitan Bhagat. Now I'm hoping I'm pronouncing that right. He is a very well-known author. Uh, however, in sort of high literary circles, he doesn't have much of a reputation. He writes sort of easy stories, a very simple way. Many people say, you know, it's just rubbish, and just, you know, you pick it up, you quickly read it too for uh two hours or whatever, and then you're done with the book. And what's wrong with that? I I don't understand that either. What I enjoy so much about the books, which I probably understand why Indians would not, is that he really writes about daily life and uh what the issues of society are. And I think that might be just too simple for Indians because that's what they live every day. But I that's exactly what I want to get to know out of that. I I started one book and just like picked one up after the other and keep kept re reading. The first one that I read, I don't actually have with me, it's uh called Revolution 2020, which is about the rampant money laundering that goes on in India when it comes to education. So universities and schools being built just to wash money and what actually goes into it in terms of quality of education, etc., is secondary.
SPEAKER_03Gotcha. Let's hold on just a second there. So where were you when you read that first book? Dubai. You were in Dubai. Okay. So you were already met your husband, you knew you were going to move to India.
SPEAKER_02I probably didn't know at that point that I was going to move, but obviously I was traveling quite a bit already, and he is Indian somewhat. So it was always gonna be a part of it. There was always a chance, obviously, we're going to move as well.
SPEAKER_03And what was your reaction to that book when you were first reading it?
SPEAKER_02Honestly, I I take another book as well, which I think was the biggest. Uh I it's another one that I read afterwards called Two States. And that for me sort of it opened up a huge thing because this book is really about the marriage of the author. It's uh sort of autobiographical uh as well. And the funny thing is that it speaks about the different castes in uh in India as well, and how difficult it can be if somebody from a higher caste would marry somebody from a lower caste. However, this book is about two people from normal middle classes meeting up in a high uh education setting as well, both of them studying, and they fall in love and they think there's nothing easier than this because we're both in the same level, so what could be the problem? However, uh he is all the way from the north of India, she is from the south, and there could probably be nothing more different than those two groups of people. And this book is about their getting to know each other, and even more so about their parents meeting each other and the people basically. The back cover says love marriages around the world are simple. Boy loves girl, girl loves boy, they get married. In India, there are a few more steps. Boy loves girl, girl loves boy. Girls' family has to love boy, boy's family has to love girl. Girl's family has to love boy's family, boy's family has to love girls' family. Girl and boy still love each other, they get married. So I love just that back cover of the city, and that's why I bought the book.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so with those two books in mind, Revolution and the Two States 2020 and Two States. Does he always have numbers in his titles? What's the third one?
SPEAKER_02I've never thought about that, but it's Yeah, yeah, it's actually true.
SPEAKER_03There's not, yeah.
SPEAKER_02A lot of them wanted to grow.
SPEAKER_03Well, okay, let's side note that because I w listened to a couple of short interviews with the author. Okay. And if I remember right, he was a businessman or in finance first. Yes, yes, yes. So maybe that's where the numbers come from.
SPEAKER_02So another thing in India is high achieving career like education, and there's those five top universities in India, and if you manage them, then you get in the high-paying jobs, and everybody wants those. So he's out of one of those universities. He did like work in the finance field as well, and then he became an author only.
SPEAKER_03Now, when did you learn this information about the author?
SPEAKER_02Was it like after reading some of these or before probably like there's this little short autobiography always about the books as well, but I read that, but that I really got into it was only probably after like two, three books that I read from him.
SPEAKER_03When you were first reading Revolution 2020 in Two States, what were your reactions to these two books?
SPEAKER_02I was uh really surprised. I on the one hand, obviously, how much do you really know about India if you don't particularly take an interest in it? The funny thing is I had watched a few of the Bollywood movies, the the big Indian film industry. Yes. However, obviously, and they do show that a little bit, but the the movies are always about one person being on the high, very rich family, the other one being from a very low-class family, and that's uh the tricky point of the movie. And obviously, especially two states, it's actually about two similar middle class families, and the problem becomes uh that they're from very different localities, uh, which makes a difference. That really opened up my mind to the diversity of India, and and that's really something that you probably cannot grasp one if you if you don't get there and you see that that uh India is one country, but that's not it. There is no India. There is you know, it's like for the s for the states, you know, like East Coast, West Coast. We have the same thing in in Germany, west and east, or um and that's even more so in in India. It's so huge country, and you have that between cities like Mumbai and Delhi, they're fighting sort of, and the same thing between East and West, North and North and South, even more so, and that really became apparent to me.
SPEAKER_03Now you said your husband's Indian kind of. What does that mean?
SPEAKER_02So my husband is uh Indian Chinese, that means he's actually born in India and he speaks Hindi and he is Indian from like documentary point of view. However, because both his parents originate from China, he looks completely Chinese, and that becomes a little tricky then because he looks Chinese, but he is speaks and and everything is Indian basically.
SPEAKER_03Because you're reading these books that include stories about people from different castes or people from the same caste. How does that work when he grows up in India as an Indian kind of, and then he marries a non-Indian, definitely? How does that all work?
SPEAKER_02Like in the beginning, when I moved to India, I applied for jobs, and one of the interviews I got asked, what caste is my husband? And till date I can't answer because my husband doesn't have an answer to that. Because caste system is obviously a very Indian system. Because they're Chinese, they still kind of fall out of that system.
SPEAKER_03So there's no caste for people who move into India after that was originally because also officially the caste system doesn't exist anymore, right?
SPEAKER_02You're officially it's it's not supposed to in in a way. However, the whole system of untouchables, etc., is still very much there, and the more rural you get, the more so. Um however, because we are living mainly uh in urban cities, so that's that was never an issue. So for it and you're not supposed to be asked that question, and yet obviously you are. However, yeah, so I can't even answer that question where he falls in that system.
SPEAKER_03Speaking of falling within a system, this podcast falls within the podcast ecosystem. I know I'm stretching the realm of uh of transition here, but honestly, we're a podcast. Clearly, we're a podcast. And sometimes I'm a little subtle about what I do with these podcasts. So I want to be very unsubtle, also known as blunt. So here I go. Currently I have three podcasts: Virtual Expats, Expat Rewind, which is Turn Into Bookish Expats, and Changing Scripts Podcast, which is about Mandarin Chinese. However, things are changing very quickly in a beautiful way. In June, I will have a new podcast with a wonderful co-host, Summer. The podcast is called Creatively Complicated. In that particular podcast, we'll be talking about the messiness of our creative life, not creative process so much, but why we struggle with the term creative, what we do and don't do that we consider creative, and different things that we find in the media and around us in life that talks about creativity in a way that makes us think and reevaluate what the hell we're doing by using this word. Uh, in every word form of it. Creative, creatively, creativity, all those kinds of things. There's a lot of changes happening, and I'm really excited to have you along. So as you're We're reading these books and reading about Indians and the caste systems and the relationships in the culture. Were there bits of the stories that you could relate to your husband? And or and or his family?
SPEAKER_02It's it's just really the fact how people have very set ideas about everybody else, about themselves even, but also about every other group. The story specifically is North and South. So the North uh Punjab, the state is called Punjab. And those people are really known to party and loud, noisy, lots of alcohol, lots of meat. Their weddings is the really late night, everybody gets drunk and dances, and that sort of punjab. Down south is much more sort of religious. They're both religious, but they celebrate that in a different way, you could say. So down south it's much more quiet, we don't drink, we don't eat meat, and it really culminates and uh spoiler if anybody reading that, they do eventually get married. And the two weddings, basically, if you were to were to have two weddings, the further north you do in the evening, late night, and you party the whole night through. Down south, no parties, but the wedding is like five o'clock in the morning, and you get together for and you you know all what you what you have in mind with the fire and the two the bridegroom walking around the fire and early morning, very sacred sort of. You literally couldn't go more different, and this is how the the book obviously what the book is about.
SPEAKER_03So many countries have a north-south divide or difference.
SPEAKER_02In Germany it's more east and west because of history-wise, obviously, uh, and maybe it's really the stretch of the country. So India is more north and south stretched, so you have the more diverse diversity.
SPEAKER_03And I was thinking of Italy with my parents. There's a definite north-south difference there too, because it's longer.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I and I think it may be also then the the climate almost that makes a difference because obviously north of India means you have the Himalayas there. It's getting freezing cold at night there and or or during the winter times, where the south where you have like, you know, it's much more warmer, much more level climate, and uh the food very diverse, etc. etc. So I think that might make a difference. But how many do you have today? You have three there. Uh I bought one more one more, which is one of his latest, actually. It's called One Indian Girl. And that actually why I grabbed that is because it's really an interesting topic he picks up there, which is arranged marriage, which is another thing that happens in India still, which for me, not being in an arranged marriage, and obviously that not being a practice in Germany at all anymore, has always been completely fascinating for me. Because the idea of marrying somebody who you shared, you know, a couple talks, like a couple cups of coffees, basically, with each other, is to me completely I couldn't get further from that what we lived through, basically. That has really opened my mind because she's really going through that with the same thoughts, like, oh my god, I'm supposed to marrying this guy, and he I I don't know him. I don't know what he likes, what he's like, except what he has told me about himself in those couple of Skype conversations.
SPEAKER_03We know how much people don't know about themselves from dating at some point in our life, right? So that's that's challenging.
SPEAKER_02Yes, and what you share to what you choose to share as well. And now, not many people necessarily like even in India, in the urban India today, doesn't no not many people anymore go through marri um arranged marriages. But living together is not common before marriage, I mean. And I think that's you learn a lot about your partner during that time, yes. You know, who does the trash, cooking, who did doing the dishes, those kind of things. Now, in a lot of families in India, you have a mate who does it for you, so fair enough. But still, you know, there's still things that you learn from one another living together, and that's just not happening. That's really, really not happening. So that's really to me so interesting.
SPEAKER_03That puts a lot of pressure on the first few years of a marriage. Yes.
SPEAKER_02Plus, then uh what happens a lot still is that the woman mu moves into her husband's house, which usually then contains also the husband's parents. And I don't know out there how many people want to live with their in-laws, but it's it becomes another set of pressure put on the new couple, other than getting to know one another, but living together with a big family also.
SPEAKER_03From what I understand in traditional Chinese culture, it is very similar where they move in. I don't remember if it I think it's with the the husband's uh family. But it in modern China it's less and less it's happening less and less.
SPEAKER_02And same same in in urban India as well, that more and more families are really living apart. However, the problem is that uh that hasn't picked up like for instance what you have in the West, that you have like elderly living homes, etc. Because they're really used to being taken care of by their kids at certain age, basically. And that that system is not there. So if you just leave your parents alone, then the question really becomes who takes care of them when once they can't do it themselves anymore.
SPEAKER_03Exactly. Yeah. And what's happening in China, that's one of the things that is widely covered by the Western media is that because of the one child policy, now the one child has to take care of the the well, the husband and wife, if if that were the the structure that we're talking about, um has to take care of four people. So there's a lot of pressure because then they'd have their own kids because they get married and have kids so young, and then they have four parents to take care of with the two of them with children in the in the in the relationship too. So it's just it's a lot of pressure. Pressure, yes. A lot of financial pressure.
SPEAKER_02And yeah, and and I mean that was always the reason in India why people were so upset, sort of, when they had daughters, they wanted a son, so that like the son stays with them, the daughter-in-law comes in, and there's somebody to take care of them. And uh, however, just the same as as in China as well, then the number of sort of kids is coming down in in India as well. And uh, I think that's just there's a lot of change afoot, sort of.
SPEAKER_03There's a lot of change happening. There's a lot of parallels now that I think about it between China and India, development development-wise, tradition-wise, history-wise, not so much history-wise, but I mean there's there's a lot more overlap in this family structure that we're talking about than I even thought about until right about now.
SPEAKER_02It might still be the case that you're no longer living in big, big family homes, everybody together, etc. However, the importance of family is still there. So what your parents say to your to your boyfriend or girlfriend, whether or not that person is, you know, you can go ahead and marry them, etc., there's still a lot of pressure on that. Yeah, for me, that's obviously in the West, it's so you move out when you're moving to college or university or whatever it may be, and you're so excited about your getting your independence, living alone by yourself, etc. etc. And in India it's still very much the case that you live with your parents until you get married, and either your spouse moves in with you or you move in with your spouse and their parents, whatever it may be, then independence never really happens.
SPEAKER_03And that to me is like to plate the devil's advocate here, then there's also an increasing sense of like isolation and depression. I don't know about in Europe, but in the US, there's a lot of people that go to university, find jobs, etc. etc. And then they live alone and maybe they can't find a spouse and they're alone, they're alone, they're alone, they're not tight with their family, they don't have a new family, and there's just there's just such an isolated, yeah, depressed. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And and I think especially also then in the once once the families get older, like the parents when they get older and are left alone because the kids are halfway across the country living somewhere else, and what happens to them? I'm kind of hoping that social media would really help in with that sort of going forward, because that's such certainly how we connected. We were talking about that. Uh, and I hope that that becomes that's certainly how I stay in contact with my parents, WhatsApp, videos, uh, for pictures, everything. And that's that's probably the best thing out of the whole situation.
SPEAKER_03So true. But it feels like there are two extremes that we're talking about of being isolated and alone because you have so much independence, and then there not being a choice, and family's just there all the time. Yeah. So it's like, where's that middle ground of wanting your family to be together, but still having some sort of independent life within that?
SPEAKER_02It's just gonna take a generation because the parent generation right now still very much has that uh idea in mind where no, we're all living together, one big happy family. Uh again, it doesn't matter if we're happy, but we're one big happy family. However, I think now the more the younger they regrow, sort of, I think it will become more and more the case where even the older generation realizes that uh, you know, the the young generation has to take off. You have to be flexible for work as well. If your if your job brings you to another city, that's what it is. And either the parents move with you, but probably that won't be the case. So I think that just with the generations have to come.
SPEAKER_03Well, the characters in the books that you've got here, how are they dealing with this?
SPEAKER_02Are they being torn between the independence and family issue or are they they yes, yeah, very very much so uh about local issues as well, in terms of you know, studying in one place, family in another, getting a job in a third city, how do we manage that? I think especially in two states with uh with the two marriages, obviously this north versus south, bringing family together. I think the young generation is really portrayed as very progressive young, modern Indians, but still very much realizing that their parents have an older uh traditional view on the whole point and obviously trying to manage those different viewpoints between the generations. But it's yeah, it's not easy, and that's well, come to life.
SPEAKER_03Oh my gosh. Yeah, being someone who's from a fairly new country. I mean, granted, my parents are from Italy, which is a much longer has a much longer history, but then even Italy as a country is kind of a loose idea, also. Yeah, so it's just it's just like, but coming from just an American perspective, as if I can cut that off of my head, um it's so hard to think of, you know, kind of bucking up against a very long history like that of those traditions that you want to keep, but also have these other characteristics that you know exist that you kind of want to play with too. It's like, how do you balance the old and the new?
SPEAKER_02And I think that's uh a lot where especially the young generation is really looking towards going abroad because that's for them the you know the the typical the grass is green on the other side. Uh if we're living abroad, then that's heaven. And that's the in in one Indian girl, so she is is such a uh hardworking and she has a big job, uh big finance job as well, and she makes millions of dollars basically, and she's so proud of that. And yet when she calls her family, which she less and less does because she's afraid that the only topic that she's talking about is okay, have you found a boyfriend? When are you gonna get married? Are you gonna come home? Is he Indian? That sort of thing. And she she can't be bothered about it. But why can't you be proud for me, even though I'm not a son, I'm your daughter, but look at what I have accomplished. But that doesn't matter, you know, you're now 27 and you're still not married, and what are you planning to do about that? That becomes the key issue, and that is something so what she does really is travel all over the world. She lives in New York, Hong Kong, London, uh, because she fears that if she moves to India to her family, there is no way of getting off of that problem of when are you getting married.
SPEAKER_03And that's something that's happening a lot here. We were talking about before before we press record, we were talking about how there's been at least a generation or two of young Chinese university students who go overseas to different countries and then come back. And they've a lot of them have come back. And they're gonna be they either are the new parents now or they're going to be the next generation of parents soon. And so are they going to perpetuate these traditional ideas or are they going to bring in some of those things they learned in the different places and kind of make a new kind of a new tradition?
SPEAKER_02And and that's again also the question um are you living in a big family home? Because then obviously grandparents also have a say in how the care uh the the kids grow up. And so that's then you're trying to bring up your child with modern views of how life could be like, and your your grandparents say, or the grandparents saying, Well, but you know, uh we used to do it that way or this way, or that doesn't help.
SPEAKER_03Well, oftentimes in China, especially now when the the competition's so tight, the parents are working a lot and the grandparents will essentially raise the child and spend most of the time with the child. And I'm just an an outsider basically looking in while I'm in the culture. So it's just it's like, oh my gosh. What's gonna happen? What's gonna happen? Sorry, the biggest impact that the books had on you.
SPEAKER_02Again, I I'm repeating myself here, but it's really for me that he is showing how life is really like in in India. What are the the problems that are uh coming up and and what are everyday Indians dealing with uh in their lives? And a lot of this has been so different from what I'm used to from the West from Europe, or even like I was living in Dubai for a while, also very, very different, that I think the book has taught me a lot about that life, the background basically that I otherwise wouldn't have found out just living in a city, just sort of looking around. You don't really you you see certain points of it. Like for instance, I was mentioning that education is so important in India. It comes to the point that the there's a 10-standard uh examination and uh those results get posted on buses. So there's pictures of kids with their, you know, this kid made 98 percentile uh in their class. And those buses go by and you and and with uh newspapers, full pages printed of lists, what kid made what uh kind of um percentile. That is so crazy to me because obviously the push or the the pressure that puts on kids and uh then the whole society, you know, uh if your kid doesn't make a certain percentile, everybody knows, and what will they say? Um all of that, you will you will see that bus going by, you will wonder why are those pictures on the bus? And some of those books just taught me a lot about this background that I otherwise wouldn't have had. And to me, it became really apparent that for instance I can now watch some of the Indian comedians because some of the jokes they crack, I sort of inside jokes basically, and that be that I understand now. I probably might not have, or much later uh anyway. Um because it's it's also those are things that I I read and understand, but unless you read that and understand that you don't even think about asking those questions, right? Why why would you? And so this is really what the books have done for me.
SPEAKER_03So let's backtrack. You you read the books, you went to India. Did you because some of these are the pr like the romance stories and whatnot? A lot of those aspects seem like they would be like stories about the home that you wouldn't necessarily see as you're walking around or having business interactions with folks. So when would is there any time when you first got to India that something happened and and you're already nodding, yeah, that something happened. Thank you. That something happened and you thought, oh, I read about that in the book or one of the books.
SPEAKER_02Because I think the difference for me is that um I wasn't uh we weren't an expert couple moving to India, but because my husband uh is Indian and he was working there, and obviously we we lived there, but he had Indian friends. So whenever we would meet up, not obviously not that we were talking all the time about the arranged marriages of friends or whatsoever, but uh we would speak a lot about those those issues. About, for instance, uh one colleagues of his that is a Parsi, which is a very special um I think from Iran group, basically, and they are very particularly very proud of their religion and and group, and they very much marry within each other. Those kind of things. It's just that when we talk about that, uh I I always refer back to the books and I oh yeah, yeah, I read about something like that. And but even for instance, I have a daughter, she goes to play school, and at some point, really somebody was saying, Oh yeah, um your marriages where they arranged, like into the group of parents around them. And obviously in in Germany that question would never even appear. Why, you know? But in that group, actually, I think we were about 10 moms, and there was, I think, one or two moms who said, Yeah, my marriage was arranged. And uh that was normal to talk about, and that was very, very interesting, sort of. But I think we were also talking about that before. It's just that India is much more you talk with each other and you get very quickly very personal. You ask questions that um I would never ask somebody in Germany uh when I just get to know them. And uh if that's an interview or uh in a in a sort of more personal setting, but uh in in India that's very much the case that uh you very quickly start speaking very personal.
SPEAKER_03The five questions. Every country seems to have a set of like three to five questions that people ask when you first meet them.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_03What are those questions in India?
SPEAKER_02I think I mean the probably the question that we will all have as experts is where are you from? And that's oh not the expats, the locals. Yeah, but the local I mean between locals you mean? Among the locals or uh because uh obviously the thing is that I like both of us, you living in China, me and India, we look very different from the people there. So that's naturally the first question. I I usually get questions about my daughter, I usually also how I like do I like India, etc. What I found really interesting is that when Indian friends meet, something that people discuss a lot is money. And that is something that in the West, I don't know, in in Germany is not a point of discussion. How much do you make? How much rent are you paying? And those kind of things. Like, no, you don't discuss money, right?
SPEAKER_03I I have to do an American high five right now, and I I say that for a very specific reason. I thought that wasn't done in the US either. But I was corrected by my husband who is also American, but from a very different part of the country than I'm than I grew up, and he said that they did. So there's a there's at least a group in Idaho of people that do this, and I'm sure there's more than that. I'm sure there's more than that. But where I grew up, you don't you don't discuss rent, you don't discuss how much you make, you don't like if you're really, really, really close friends, then you might compare if you're trying to help each other out with maybe you could save money by doing this kind of thing. Right. But in a group of people, no, especially people that might be friends of friends, you just don't talk much. If somebody asks you how much you make and you don't really know know them, exactly, you make that face. It's like why frowning. Yeah. Deep friendships are hard here because the cultures are so different between foreigner and local. The top five questions, one of them does include how much do you make, and one of them could be how much is your rent. So there are financial questions in the first few things. And I'm talking like taxi drivers, somebody in a restaurant, somebody that sits next to you in a cafe, like complete strangers will ask those questions.
SPEAKER_02So as I was saying, money comes definitely up among friends, certainly in Mumbai. And Mumbai, I have to say, is a very financial driven city because it's the business capital of India. Everybody seems to know what, like, yeah, yeah, we are invested. We just picked up a place in XYZ place. Oh yeah, I heard it's really low right now, but it's gonna appreciate very much. Everybody seems to know the country, everywhere in the country, what it costs and right now and how much it will appreciate in the next couple of years. That seems to be common factor, so you you know that. However, it what comes up uh even among strangers, sort of especially amongst women, is like, oh you look good, oh you lost weight, uh, or you gained weight. Uh so much so that and I really got upset over that. Uh, I'm not very fussy over my weight. This is not something that I'm like uh crazy over. Um, however, I had met I we had friends and we went to their birthday, and I was pregnant, so obviously had put on weight. So we met and met a couple of friends of our friends as well. So one year later, same birthday, obviously I had had my baby and uh had quite lost quite a lot of weight, and um we meet the same friends of our friends again, and she goes like, Oh my god, you look amazing! So, well, gee, thanks, you know. No, I mean you look really good. It's like, well, I was pregnant last year when we met, but obviously I you know I'll last a bit of a way. Uh yeah, oh my god. And she turns to my husband and she says, Uh oh my god, you have to make sure she doesn't eat any chocolate because she just looks great that way. It's like, well, excuse me. Number one, my husband doesn't dictate what I eat. Number two, I feel good right now, thank you very much, but this is not like my my key point of my life to look as I look right now. I mean, so this really this is something and and looks, I think in general. If for instance, like your skin breaks out, strangers come up to me and say, Oh my god, what happened to your face? And those are things, it's just you don't do that, you know. In in in Europe, you would never you ignore things like that, you know, you would never pick this or point that out.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, in fact, in in the US, when if somebody said, Oh, I feel really bad, I have this did on my nose today, you'd be like, No, you look great.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly. Yes, yes. No, oh no. Yeah, and like again, those kind of conversations only happen between really good friends. You would never really mention that to because you're trying to cover it up, you wouldn't m go to a colleague or something like a more further away person.
SPEAKER_03This is so funny. I had no idea how similar uh Indian and Chinese culture are on some level. Yeah, when I first moved to Asia, I was in Taiwan and I rode a scooter everywhere because there wasn't uh metro in that city that I was in yet. As I was parking my bike to go to my books, a bookstore. That's so funny. When I was going to a bookstore in about to get into my happy place, this man just walked up to me as I was parking and wanted to tell me something, and his English was very spotty. I spoke almost No Chinese at the point at that point. And he just points to this giant mole that I have on my face, on the side of my face. And then he starts he actually goes into his wallet and hands me a doctor's card and said, That's bad. You need to fix it in English. And I'm like, I don't know you. It's my first few months there. I have a bookstore within reach, and I'm just like, I want to go to my happy place. You're making me want to run to my happy place quicker. This is probably a cultural thing. This is probably not meant to be offensive, but all I could think was, I want to punch you. I want to punch you for making me feel embarrassed about my body. Yeah. I was just like, what is happening right now? And I'm like, and I just looked at the card and I looked at him and I was like, no, thank you. And I just walked away as quickly as I could. I was just like, I what what is happening right now?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and and you don't know how to react because I I really I generally think she didn't mean any I n neither did he, he really didn't mean anything bad about it or in the Which is why I didn't punch him.
SPEAKER_03But but it's just oh I was like, okay, I'm in your country. Clearly this is what you do here, but I that that doesn't mean I have to be thankful for it right now. You know, it's like it whoa, it's such a crazy moment. The in the books it's it's just straight Indian straight Indians, it's just it's just locals with locals kind of environments. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Not that I I mean the what comes up with the is that I think uh still very much the fact that for women it's uh much more the focus is on how you look, that you look good, uh that you make an a uh sort of an effort about your appearance in terms of also clothing, etc. And it's it's more apparent or more important that you're married by a certain age. It's it's very important that you go and to get in a good college for both men and women, for men to make a lot of money, for women to get a man who makes a lot of money. And uh that's that's kind of now uh I think a lot of people would probably say that's changing, that's true, and it is changing a lot. And I think the the advantage is that uh a lot of women want to have a job, they uh want to progress in their career, and because of the mates that you can get in the in the country, it's m much more easier as well. However, there's still very much women who say no, I'm I need a husband, so they can t take care of me, basically. So it's it's crazy. But the whole idea of feminism actually has taken up a lot um in the last couple of years, I would say. So there's much more talk about, you know, it's like no, as a woman we can do our own, we can live our own life, and we don't need a husband or a man to look after us. And I think that is changing also, but that is also changing from a political point of view in terms of that laws are being changed, that you no longer need a male uh man, sort of a male person that looks over you and after you, basically. Recently the law has been changed that uh you don't have to change your name and your passport when you get married. That's no longer necessary. So those kind of things change and they become uh sort of more open and more equal. Has your husband read any of these books? My husband doesn't read many books, he's more newspaper magazine reader. Have you talked to him about the things in the books? I talked to him about things that really struck struck me, basically. The thing is because obviously he has never been in an arranged marriage, for instance, so I can't really talk to him about that. Uh he hasn't been to one of those high fancy flying colleges uh either. He went to hospital school uh as well. Um I I have a friend who one went to one of those schools, and basically and and the fact really is that the pressure in those schools is crazy. And you do have like the uh occasional suicide case where students commit suicide because they can't handle it any longer. I do obviously it becomes less and less, but in the beginning it was a lot that sort of I had a almost a list of questions, and my husband would come home from work, like, oh my god, I have to ask you something, sit down and I want to know A, why or whatever. I remember the the funniest thing, I will never forget that. First time we went to the movies uh in India, and the first thing that happens before the movie starts, the Indian national anthem is played, and they're showing the Indian flag, and everybody has to get up. Just before, after the first time we went to obviously you get up, la la la. But shortly afterwards, in the magazine in the newspaper, there was a story where two foreigners had gone to the movies, they didn't know they stayed seated, and an Indian woman took her hand back and sort of hit them over the head. It's like, how dare you? And like, you know, you should you should I'm not sure, maybe they were busy with their phones or whatever. I don't I don't know what happened, but anyway, they didn't stand up immediately.
SPEAKER_03I don't know what happened with those two folks in the movie theater, but I know that some of you may want to stand up and volunteer to be a guest on the bookish expats. Ah, see what I did there? It it's really actually quite simple. Contact me and let me know what country you're an expat in and what book helped you learn about that country. Now with Tatana, we did cover a few books, not just one, but moving forward, here are the criteria. It's very simple. Are you ready? It's gonna be quick, it's gonna be quick. It's going to be a book about the country that you have lived in or are living in, and it needs to be fiction. That's it. Those are the only criteria. If you fit that criteria and you want to stand up and volunteer to be a guest on Bookish Expats, then please, please, please let me know. We love that you would want to be bookishly expat heard. Let's do this. When you first sat down and you had the books, and I'll take a picture for the listeners, so watch out for my Instagram, I'll put it down in the show notes. Dear listeners, but you've got all kinds of post-its and things on it. So how else do you interact with the book? Do you actually write in the books too? So it it's really funny.
SPEAKER_02So generally A, when I buy books, I have big trouble giving them away or parting from them. I do have a Kindle that I work with. I have Kindle on my phone as well, and even now I'm uh where we move to now, we have a library, so that's great. But when I do buy a book, I read it. I usually would never draw on there or fold pages or whatsoever, nothing. However, once I realize that this is actually a book that I will be rereading or that I love or or that I wanna make uh notes actually quite a lot of them, I start and then I write all over the book. And that is uh funny because then the first pages are completely blank, and then you notice at some point I realize, okay, this book I'm gonna keep, and then I I start writing all over the place, so it becomes really, really used, sort of.
SPEAKER_03Somebody introduced me to hashtag Bookstagram, and yes, I just said hashtag out loud on Instagram recently, and I was like, What? There's a whole subset you're probably in Bookstagram, I'm guessing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, so that there is like it's it's exactly it's not nothing more, I think, than a than a hashtag, actually, that everybody who speaks about books or whatever, but there is actually a lot behind it because obviously then you have the publishers, you have uh various blogs that are just revolving around the topic. Um I recently found out there is a whole scene basically that deals with uh covers, who's made covers, and which is so funny that I never thought about it because there's so there's a saying, right? Don't judge a book by its cover. But yet again, when you Exactly, and so many times on Bookstagram um you see uh people saying, Oh my god, this is so pretty, and look, I got a special edition because it's so pretty, and this becomes such a turning point, but yet nobody talks about the people behind those uh beautiful covers. And so that's something again. I I uh listen to another podcast, it's called The Women Reading. Uh it's a podcast, blog podcast, and so forth, and they had a whole podcast with she the people who uh who are dealing mainly with uh women in the publishing and specifically women in the cover art business. And this is so fantastic because uh again, you know, um obviously a lot of people read mainly, like it just happens that a lot of authors are white men, unfortunately, and more and more now people are trying to reach out in other like either women are authors or whatsoever, but the same obviously gil uh counts for every other uh industry as well. That uh women, specifically in the art departments of of uh publishers, etc., are not that often.
SPEAKER_03That's so cool. And wait, what was the book cover? The name of it again? The Reading Women Listeners, it'll be in the show notes.
SPEAKER_02They do fantastic they would do women authors, they do interviews, they do uh books, etc. etc. And they did one particular podcast with uh She the People, I think it's called. I I give you the uh one as well. And that's uh specifically about women in the book art departments.
SPEAKER_03When you were in the UAE looking for books on India, how did you hone in on these?
SPEAKER_02I think number one is honestly the fact that the uh author's name, obviously, like you know it's it's not US American like very cliche, sort of it's not US American, it certainly isn't uh sort of Middle Eastern or whatsoever. And I think the first one that I had picked up, the uh Revolution 2020, that also has something India related on the cover, and I think that had just come out, so it was located in the bookstore with this special stance saying, you know, from India, whatsoever. So that caught my eye. Because obviously UAE means that about I think 30% of the expats there are actually subcontinent expats, so a lot of uh that is geared to them. As I was mentioning, it's it's a lot about the money laundering in the education system, but it's also about a love triangle. So that's why you have those three sort of people on the cover. So that's a bit from that background. But otherwise, I'd find it very aggressive in a way, also, very dark, and it's actually one of his books now that I'm thinking about it. A lot of his books tend to be obviously dramatic in a way that there there is conflict, etc. But they tend to end on a happy note, sort of happy go lucky, also in a in a good way, which I like. I'm I'm I'm still reading, preferring to read sort of happy books also. However, this is probably one of the books that he's written that are darker and and make you really think about the dark side of things. Don't win it for us. No, no, no, no, I'm not gonna.
SPEAKER_03So it wasn't the cover at all.
SPEAKER_02No, it wasn't the cover, it was really because I was much more focusing on India and because this sort of in the in the shop it was mentioning that, you know, from India, etc. etc. Um, because in fact I met the author in Dubai because he came from the Dubai Book Fair and I got my book signed by him and everything, so very excited. That's really neat. And I think he was very excited as well because obviously coming to Dubai and uh sort of a European picking up his book, I don't think I'm specifically his his uh target market the first place.
SPEAKER_03What did you say to him when he met him?
SPEAKER_02And in fact, I gave him sort of the lowdown of my of my story with my husband being from India and you know we're engaged to get married, and I'm so excited, and India, and and uh I obviously I was traveling to India at that point uh once in a while. I think he seemed happy. I mean I'm buying his books, so I think he's happy in general.
SPEAKER_03Now, language-wise, were these written in English or were they translated in the city?
SPEAKER_02No, he's he he writes in English. That's actually an advantage in uh India versus I'm not sure if that happens in China, that there are actually quite a lot of people, a lot of authors who do write in English because of the obviously the the English, the British rule, the colonial rule that uh English obviously is a major language in in India as well, and uh a lot of people do write uh in English, so you don't even have to translate them.
SPEAKER_03So on those post-it notes, what are the kinds of things that you noted? I mean you don't have to share specific things unless you want to. We're open here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so the it's just like small funny things that I sort of um sort of to portray the two different very different cultures of those two different states, those are they're coming from. When you when you highlight them, it's always like, oh my god, this is so funny. It's like now I have to read them. No!
SPEAKER_03But because you've read the whole book and you've read multiple books of it, it may not seem significant to you, but I bet you it'll be interesting to the listeners.
SPEAKER_02But it's like some of that is also what I'm wondering, is if it's uh if you take it out of context, you know, if it's still uh relevant. So what I feel with him is it's not that it's not, you know, those uh things that you highlight and uh you post on Bookstar Gram or wherever, and you're like, oh my god, this significant sentence that uh changes my life. It's just that uh, you know, it it it says a lot about the paragraph.
SPEAKER_03And that's actually where I meant that bookstagram moment to go to, and I completely got lost in my own question. So thank you for the opportunity to to circle back to that. Were there any things that you that you bookstagrammed about any of these books?
SPEAKER_02So the thing is now again, Bookstagram my bookstagram account started about four months ago. So very, very recent actually. Hence I basically started with the books that I really, really read either very recently or that I'm reading right now. In fact, I uh just finished for the last three months War and Peace. You finished War and Peace.
SPEAKER_03These are words not said together usually.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm very proud. I would like to make that for this to make it into the podcast. I read War and Peace. So I was bookstragramming a lot about either that or books that I'd recently uh read and finished, etc. And again, I'm reading also obviously a lot of books about various other cultures, either Indian or otherwise. And that those are things that I'm trying to put in there, but just generally sort of what I'm reading, what I'm reading about. I do post some quotes, not necessarily from I haven't from those books, but from yes, from uh from Warren Peace I did. Although funny enough, it was about like a German thing that he wrote of like a Russian book mentioning the Germans and their uh sort of how particular they are and everything made me laugh. So I posted that because I thought um I'm I'm not German enough that I can't laugh about myself as a German.
SPEAKER_03So it's it's good to laugh at ourselves mentioned.
SPEAKER_02In the book, a character mentions uh obviously it's in a war situation, and at that point, uh Russians and Germans were working together on one side, if you would like. And uh sort of the one Russian uh general says, uh yeah, so I was out with this German general and he was starting to be particular, and once Germans start getting particular, they just don't end. So sort of something along those lines, and it made me laugh.
SPEAKER_03Were there any of those stereotypical examples in Cheetan's book? Did he stereotype any Indians on any sort of jokish level in any of these books?
SPEAKER_02The the funny thing is like I don't know how much of that is stereotyping in terms of cliche over the top, because I feel that a lot of it is actually also true.
SPEAKER_03Well, stereotypes exist for a reason.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, exactly. I feel like when I come back to India after this, I'm gonna think they're gonna catch me at uh into immigration. It's like, what have you been talking about?
SPEAKER_03I can assure you right now, one, it will not be published by next week, and two, that I don't think I have any listeners in India yet.
SPEAKER_02We will change it.
SPEAKER_03I don't know if you want that right now. Just kidding, just kidding.
SPEAKER_02Actually, uh Shitan Bagat is very active on social media Twitter, for instance, so I'm not sure he might not pick up on that. Mr. Bagat, this is your chance.
SPEAKER_03Well, now now you've kind of challenged me to include him when I publish this episode. Why not? I do things online since meeting him in person. Have you tweeted him at all? Well, because you read these all before you met him, so you haven't read anything else. But would you, if you read another book of his, would you would you social media him any reactions or questions?
SPEAKER_02I've been doing that actually quite uh actively with all my uh for instance, last year I read Pachinko, which is about Korea-Japan story. The the author is quite active on Instagram as well, so I I included her as well, and uh so various as well. But for instance, one of my favorite books last year was The Gospel according to Coco Chanel. It's so funny because Coco Chanel, the Chanel, obviously everybody just has the fashion house in mind. Many people will know about like there was a woman called Coco Chanel, and obviously her style is the Chanel style. And maybe you know about the scent, and maybe you know about the little black dress, but it about finishes there. So, actually, one of my favorite books uh last year was uh The Gospel according to Togo Chanel. The author is Karen Carbow, and also very active on social media. So when I posted about her book, she liked it, which obviously made completely my day. That was a crazy book because really not a lot of people know about the the story, and the book is very like it's it's not one of those dry biographies, but written in a very light and funny way, but it really shows how much of a feminist that woman was, such a powerhouse woman, um making her own fashion house in a time where women belonged in the kitchen, basically, and nothing else, not working and definitely not her their own boss, sort of. So that was fantastic with that error. Stereotyping, basically, I think that I was thinking about is always that stereotypes of Germans in India are always like Second World War related, and they laugh about that, and many Germans, me included, still very touchy-feedy about that. And um, we cannot laugh about that. So I I'm still very sort of when when people make jokes about that, I'm usually staying quiet.
SPEAKER_03I'm not saying much about that because the interviewer part of me wants to ask you what they say, and the human part of me wants to like gently move on, but you've mentioned it in an interview, so you know the interviewer part of me is going to ask you.
SPEAKER_02No, we can talk about it. Okay, okay. I find it still too tough because it's it's just obviously to an extent what happened during that time. I find it's like, how can you joke about that in on any level?
SPEAKER_03Slightly confusing me right now. How are they joking about it?
SPEAKER_02Do you have anything it's to to one extent something that happens quite commonly actually? It's the fact that if somebody is very particular about it, it's like, oh, don't be such a Hitler about it. Which is yes, exactly. Thank you very much. And for me, it's like, uh, you shouldn't say that.
SPEAKER_03Oh my gosh, okay. That's like very connected tangent. Immediately. Which doesn't make sense. Trevor Noah, he's from South Africa, but he's a late-night show host in the US. Have you read his book Born a Crime? Oh my gosh. Highly recommended. And there is a Hitler connection in there that I'm not going to spoil for you because oh gosh, I don't think it'll be funny to you. Shoot.
SPEAKER_02Okay, no, no, no, I definitely don't.
SPEAKER_03I don't know if it will be funny to you. But the the end result of the story is not connected to well I don't know if it'll be funny. But the book is amazing. His his can it's it's truly, truly amazing. And I I do a lot on audio because I'm out and about more than I'm sitting still at this point in my life. I'm restless. And he actually read it in the audiobook forum. So it was really, really spoiling to hear him tell the stories in in his own voice. Because I think I think he's a pretty net magnetic personality, in addition to a lot of other traits of his own. But there is there is a a story with a character named Hitler that is not that Hitler.
SPEAKER_02And that's that's the problem, obviously, that uh you have people uh even in India, you have people called Stalin, and because it's uh sometimes they don't either they don't know the the background, the historical background, or the other almost the other extreme is that people really think that obviously Hitler was a bad person, but they he fought for the rights and or or for his country's people. So he stood up for Germans. And now I would like to point out that I think that is not the way to do it.
SPEAKER_03Right, no, I agree. Agreed.
SPEAKER_02That's you know, there's other ways to do that and and stand up for your own country's sake, but uh that's sort of what what they think is uh maybe it's not all bad.
SPEAKER_03And to be fair, Tre part of not to I'm not gonna tell the story, but part of the point of Trevor Noah telling the story was to show that that was the beginning of his awareness that things that he grew up with were not thought of the same in other cultures, even within South Africa. So it was the beginning of his awareness of hmm, cultural sensitivity, shall we say? Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he he does circle around. I'm just gonna use that every other sentence. He does circle back to that moment. New favorite words. There's an elephant in the room right now. Oh gosh, that wasn't meant to be an Indian pun. That's just a phrase in English.
unknownI didn't even realize.
SPEAKER_03But there is, because we've been talking about you reading this whole time and you clearly have many languages at your disposal. Oh, yeah. So what language did you start reading in?
SPEAKER_02I always read in German in the beginning because what I have realized since I moved abroad is it's very, very uncommon, but is natural in German, is that everything gets translated. Which means when English movies, either from the US or UK or whatever, come to Germany, they get translators. And so when we watch uh whatever the Marvel Universe or whatever, uh it's all German language. They speak German.
SPEAKER_03Oh, so it's the sound is dubbed over.
SPEAKER_02Yes, it's dubbed over, and there's not even English subtitles, nothing. And so, which is I would say is actually a disadvantage because I realize now that other countries in Europe where that's not the case, so where for instance the Scandinavian countries they don't dub over, but they have local subtitles. The English of the natives there um is much better because they are sort of uh exposed to English as in spoken in America or UK, wherever, much, much earlier on. Basically, it's fantastic. You don't have that in German, which is probably the reason why there's such a horrible accent.
SPEAKER_03Most of my teaching English career was done in Northeast Asia where there's a much stronger first language accent coming over. So, yeah, I'm a little skewed on in that regard. On the European spectrum, you're saying that there is a strong okay.
SPEAKER_02Maybe it's just because it's my o like from my own, it's just yeah. So, in in again, in the German ever Germany, every Everything is translated as it's movies, but also books. So you would never even think about picking up books, and you actually have to go to specific bookstores in usually in the city center, which would have specific sections on English books. Otherwise, everything is German, um, basically. So hence I would anyway, uh you learn English at a later stage in your life, so you uh you read German and you would read it very long.
SPEAKER_03So at what point in your multi-country trajectory did you start reading in English?
SPEAKER_02Once I knew that I would be studying abroad and would be studying in English, I started more and more. I was the first thing was I was watching English movie like movies in English, just to get started, basically, and getting a head start on understanding, etc. And then I think I was reading a little bit in English, but it's just uh I think you you try to avoid it probably. It's just easier to read in the street.
SPEAKER_03It's not relaxing if you have to like constantly think about what you're reading.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, or or like pick up dictionaries to understand certain things, etc. Then again, I moved obviously for studies, which meant that immediately I had to read in English, and that just made it much easier, and then I also uh didn't have a choice anymore. I had to pick up books in English because in in German was nothing available anymore. And so anyway, then I moved to the UK and there's only books in English available. So from then on I realized from from then on and still I'm reading uh books, especially written by like written in English, I read only in English. And the only books that I read in German is basically written by German authors.
SPEAKER_03That makes sense. I mean if you can read it in the original language, why wouldn't you? Exactly.
SPEAKER_02The only question obviously becomes what's available. And that's when I made half made a point now that when I go to Germany, I go to bookstore, I take the next person that looks somewhat sort of you seem to have an idea of what you're doing, and I say it looks like I'm I am German, I'm living abroad. What do I what's a big thing right now in Germany? What are people reading? So that I pick up something like that.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so you've got German and obviously English. What other languages do you have at your disposal for reading books? For reading books, not reading books.
SPEAKER_02I've I've this is getting very embarrassing. I learned uh Russian actually as my second language.
SPEAKER_03How is that embarrassing? That's impressive. To these ears, that's very impressive.
SPEAKER_02No, I that's true, but the thing is that uh having had Russian in school for I think about six years, I cannot read a book in Russian. I can I I can read the letters in terms of they have a different alphabet. Sure, yeah, Cyrillic, yeah. Yeah, uh so I I could I can read it, I can't understand what it tells me. Or let's say I I do certain words, like you know, those little like and or the that kind of stuff I understand. I'm very happy with that, but not the book. That was my third language. I had French for a couple of weeks in hotel school, uh, I had Italian for eight weeks in hotel school, and uh my Hindi is more than basic, and I can't read the script. That's another thing, right? Because India has all those different languages, Hindi being the main one, but you have those local languages and and accents and whatnot. If you were to sum up your experience with these books, it's it's been fantastic, and I think one question she did send me. Like, I've been recommending those books, like right, left, and center, to people, specifically people that said they're like to read, basically. Now, I also have to say that I recommended it to my book club recently. Unfortunately, I wasn't in Mumbai anymore when the book club discussed it. I think from what I got feedback from them, they didn't like it that much. Because I'm not sure why, but um the thing is that I'm always making sure to say, look, it's it's very simple. It's not, it certainly is not One Piece, it's not Shakespeare or anything. I just I'm really reading it as a foreigner coming to India about the society and to learn a little bit more uh about what's going on there. Things that especially I find again, uh I'm married to an Indian. I have the the direct intel on on a lot of those things and somebody to ask. Um and if he doesn't know, then probably somebody he knows that I could ask. However, for many expat couples where both are non-Indian, maybe the husband through his work will have some context to an Indian, but those are not the people you would generally ask questions, you know. It's like where did you study? Did anybody of your colleagues uh of your of your peers ever commit suicide?
SPEAKER_03No, no. Well that would be awkward.
SPEAKER_02Over coffee uh and a coffee break, basically. That's that's something that I basically learn from those books, and I'm not saying that this intel is like spot on and and the truth and there's nothing else to learn about India, whatsoever. There is there's a multitude on on uh again uh religions, regions, etc. etc. It's just it opens up your mind about how much there is and how much to learn, and maybe some questions to ask if ever you get to meet an Indian that you can ask questions, basically.
SPEAKER_03Here's a bad analogy for you. Um, just like one person isn't what you need for the rest of your life. I mean, not one book isn't gonna fulfill everything you need to know about any one place.
SPEAKER_02And and that's something, again, that's something where I loved uh having a book club that is uh local with a local book club. I loved talking to my expert book club about expert books that are all over the world, and and that was fantastic. But uh, especially when it comes to India, obviously it was great to have a book club of Indians with Indians. However, I have to say, if you go to book club to people who l read a lot and who who know they read a lot and and talk about those books, if I come with those books to them, they you know like roll their eyes. Oh my god, you know, is this all you read? It's like no, but again, the the point is for them, what is boring for them, I can completely understand, is I learn a lot from those books that for them is just a day-to-day life that they uh that they've grown up with. That's so normal so normal. Why would you read that? But it's something that I would have never found out, probably.
SPEAKER_03Have his books not sold well in India?
SPEAKER_02No, no, no, not at all. That's actually the funny thing. It's I I think it's a bit the thing, I think you have that everywhere where you have authors that people who like to think of themselves of, you know, no, I'm a reader and I'm like I'm not sure what the word is. Like, you know, it's like I'm I'm better.
SPEAKER_03Snooty, snobby, elitist.
SPEAKER_02Um I know better than to read Shit Almagat, sort of. But then there's enough people who either don't care really or who I don't know, it's like just read whatever, you know. It's like and and quite quite frankly, it's like I literally read everything. Yeah. Um and I have to like I will never forget when I was in Dubai, I had just gotten my Kindle. And um I had heard about Fifty Shades of Grey, and however, this being Dubai, where obviously certain things are just not, you know, the book wasn't really discussed or very broadly advertised. You could buy it in stores, but I think there was even an attack on their 18, something like that. That's all. So I never got the notices of what it was about, but I only noticed knew that everybody was talking about it. So I had picked up the Kindle and I downloaded the sample, and I read the sample, and it's like, oh, that sounds interesting, but the sample never got to this uh point where it gets very explicit. It didn't reach there. But you couldn't you notice that something was fishy, something was going on. So I was sitting in a in a coffee shop and I was like, oh damn it, I want to know what happens. I downloaded the first book, and I'm sitting in this, you know, UAE Dubai. Dubai is very, very obviously liberal compared to the rest of the Middle East. However, it's still Dubai, it's still the Middle East. And I was sitting there and I was reading it, suddenly got to the point and I was like, oh my god. And it was like completely turned red, and I was looking around, can anybody read what I read? And that was sort of I was like, oh my god. So I read sort of Fifty Shades of Grey, and I read I read all those three books because I thought it was again, it was not Shakespeare or anything, but I thought it was actually quite a gripping story, leaving all the explicits aside that got a little much, I felt. At some point, I was like, oh, come on, you know. But uh there's actually some story to that as well. And I I don't I don't have a problem with reading that. Um, but yeah, I also read Warren Peace, I love Jen Austin, exactly.
SPEAKER_03Why wouldn't you read The Range? I mean, exactly. No, I read it too, and I I was working with two girlfriends at the time, and we were reading it kind of accidentally at the same time, and we'd walk in and like show our posters and go, Did you get to this part yet? Oh my god, kind of thing. And I I was hesitant to watch the movie, and I did, and I was like, How much how did you leave all of this out? Like all of the the interesting parts I feel like were just like cut, cut, cut, cut. And I didn't watch a censored version anywhere, I would just watch the whole version of the movie.
SPEAKER_02And quite frankly, what I don't even know the movie I think came out when we're in India, and India is censoring, but not to the point that the Middle East censors. I think I still haven't watched the whole movie uncensored because you can't get hold of it, basically. And I read the the books, and I think many readers will agree that just usually the books are much better.
SPEAKER_03And in this case, it's so so so so so true. Again, not that it's like the most groundbreaking whatever story or whatever, but it it it is a page turner. I got through it super fast.
SPEAKER_02I I agree, and that was again, it's not a book that I would read over and over again. And and again, I think it's also the different how different it is. I've never read anything like that before, and uh especially like so graphic and and so forth to the extreme it gets. And it's certainly not something I would pick up again, but it's it's for that one time, I think it was brilliant.
SPEAKER_03So there's a movie I watched on the plane last month called Book Club. Have you seen this movie? Oh, yes. Okay, yeah, because they read Fifty Shades of Grey. Yeah, yeah. Actually, I think they get through all three of the books by the end. I forget. I know they definitely did the second one.
SPEAKER_02They I think I think they start with the first, and everybody's like, oh come on, we're not gonna read that, etc. etc. And then they start, and just like what you were saying, you know, once you get into it, it's it's I couldn't pick it to put it down.
SPEAKER_03It's it's hard to to read that book and compare your life to it.
SPEAKER_02And I thought what I thought was so brilliant about obviously not just taking the like the book club reading that book, but also obviously that the book club is not young girls, you know, it's the older generation, and I think that's a whole different twist then to the to the movie and discussing a book, etc.
SPEAKER_03And even so, I love the fact that they did think about their lives and make changes. It's like you think, oh, after a certain point your life is just set. Oh no, there are drastic changes that happened. I was I was just watching it going, this is an awesome movie. First of all, there's a movie about a book club I'm in. Like, I don't care how boring or interesting this is, I'm watching the whole damn thing.
SPEAKER_02Somehow I have other like Indian authors and so forth, and I've read some as well. Don't nail me down on that. But it's it's just that I'm really trying to read just anything that is sort of all over the place. I'm really diversifying my reading, and that just means also, as I was saying, uh last year and uh Exit West, another fantastic book I thought I read last year. So just a little bit about everything.
SPEAKER_03I go through phases where I want to read about a specific country or city or place. And yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's true, and that's so bad with me right now. I was uh Pachinko time also. I think Pachinko got me into that. Korean, South Korean culture, like pop culture. Yeah. The movies, I think it's so good. Yeah, exactly. And so I got a lot into that, and I haven't really gotten into books there yet, but I I've been told they're also similar like books that are very similar to those movies.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I'm surprised that I haven't been dragged into although I've never lived in Korea, I've been in Northeast Asia long enough that I should be watching Korean soap operas. I do love K-pop and and J-pop music.
SPEAKER_02And and so the and but Pachinko was obviously because it's Korean moving into Japan, etc. etc. I so I read something else, and now I that's why I bought the book now uh from China to read a Chinese author. But just there's so much and obviously I read Crazy Rich Asians.
SPEAKER_03Oh hold on, I'm thinking. I have not read the book, I have seen the movie, and sometimes when I see the movie, I can't go backwards. That's that's very ideally.
SPEAKER_02And I specifically when I notice that there's a movie coming out that the book I haven't read but I wanted to read, I don't watch the movie because I know I won't.
SPEAKER_03Have you seen the movie?
SPEAKER_02Yes, I have.
SPEAKER_03And you've read the book, so is the book better?
SPEAKER_02So I have read all the three books.
SPEAKER_03Oh, there's three. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's right, because the second one they're actually going to film in mainland China.
SPEAKER_02Oh. Right? Because there's quite a few uh like they set quite a few pieces in in China.
SPEAKER_03So in general, the books versus the movies for that one for that series?
SPEAKER_02I I thought was brilliant actually. Uh the book I thought it makes definitely sense to read the book first and to read it, but I thought the the movie made a had a great jump on on the on the book in terms of the lavishness of the lifestyle, and because I think that's really again, it's not a not a l sort of masterpiece of literature, but again, it's a piece that gives you a lot about the culture. And again, my husband being Chinese, this whole idea like Amma and the Hung Paos and certain things that I just knew, and I was laughing so much because I remembered when I came and met my husband's family for the first time. And now I I want to make a shout out here, they're not crazy rich, so that's a whole different level. But she comes into this huge family where thousands of people and everybody is uh somehow related to one another. But I came basically and uh during Chinese New Year in Kolkata, India, and I met his family for the first time. And as I was just telling you on the way here, he has 29 cousins from his mom's side alone. And to come as a German looking white and having a family, uh my family is literally my dad, my mom, my brother, and one uncle with his wife and two cousins. That's all. And then I come to this massive family, and literally we did just one day as you do during Chinese New Year, and you just hop from family home to family home, and it's going, coming, going, coming, and new people all the time. And I remember after 12 hours of that coming back to the hotel, headache as hell, and it's like, okay, we need to sit down. Who are all those people? To some extent, I could relate to her. It's like, what is going on?
SPEAKER_03There's so much going on. Actually, now I'm remembering it was Aqua Fina, the act the comedian. She's the reason why I watched the movie first. Because I I've I've fallen in love with her her work and her sense of humor is a is oh it's so funny to me. It's so so funny.
SPEAKER_02So I didn't know any of that because it's lot obviously it's American movie in terms of a lot of them are American Chinese actors.
SPEAKER_03Well, actually, one of the main guys is is Filipino. There were some there were people from from various quote unquote Asian backgrounds, and that's what pissed a lot of people off is that it wasn't Chinese. Yeah, not Chinese or Singaporean or yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, okay. So American Asian, you could say, basically.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. I think and they kept saying, Oh, it's an all-Asian caste, this is so rare. It's like, um, no, in the world, in Asian countries, that's the norm. That's just so it's just the way they premised it really, really put a lot of people off. But I think as a movie it was very cute. Yes.
SPEAKER_02And I still think uh I'm still pushing for it in terms of that's a Hollywood movie of an all-Asian cast. Yeah. And I think that I still think that's worthwhile celebrating that you just need to sort of it it's diversifying people's views of of the world. There is not just white people.
SPEAKER_03I know what you mean. I know what you mean, but the thing is that it's diversifying them, but as one culture. And they're not. I mean, somebody in the Philippines is a very different cult. And I I I shouldn't even be sticking up for them because I'm not from any of these cultures, but I will try, maybe. But I mean, somebody from the Philippines versus somebody from mainland China versus somebody from Singapore, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Also me coming from Germany. Being in Germany, I remember saying that Far East Asian people all look the same to me. That is so cliche, but it's true, it was true at that point, right? And they all look the same to me. Now I'm so impressed because I was living in Asia, uh, a lot of Asians coming to Dubai as well when I was living there, a lot of Filipinos there, and now that I'm looking watching Korean sort of uh Korean pop uh TV shows as well. Um, I was coming into Shanghai at the airport, and I was like, oh my god, look, they're from Korea, right? Oh my god, look, they are from Japan. And I'm so impressed with myself that I'm even able to tell the difference. And uh, but this is something that you can only do once you're somehow thrown out there and sort of meeting people. One of my best friends from the studying time, he is half Filipino. And I was traveling in the Philippines, and now I'm here in China, and I know people obviously I'm India. India is Asia as well, but you couldn't be more diverse and different from comparing India to China, obviously. So yeah, now I know that, but obviously, for people living in Europe or or in sort of US, you can just throw it in.
SPEAKER_03No, no, no. And it and it goes both ways. Even in Shanghai, which is very cosmopolitan in many parts, there is still some places where if you go to a local restaurant or cafe or something, and there are only two foreigner two white foreigners, let's be specific, they might confuse your drinks because they can't see the difference in our faces either. It really does go both ways. And it's not necessarily with a with the like a prejudice behind it, it's just I'm not familiar with the differences of where to look. Is it the eyes, is it the nose, is it the mouth, and it just yeah.
SPEAKER_02Exactly, yeah. And I've been told that as well, and we had the same thing in in uh in India as well, where I have a very good friend of mine, and she is happens to be German as well. And wherever I would meet her and she would be there already, I would come into a restaurant. Oh, you have friends over there, already being told, because obviously the one expat in the restaurant and another one coming, and you guys must know each other. Yes.
SPEAKER_03How else could it be? This happens to me so often. And I'm just like, I don't know what you're talking about. I'm sure you're a nice person, but I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I don't even know that person.
SPEAKER_03No, no, no, no, this is odd. For the future bookish episodes of expat rewind, what questions are missing? What else should I ask people? You've already given me two ideas. One about the book covers and two about movies and books and of the book versions, and so you've given me two, so we can skip this question or I think what I just hit my mind is like in terms of bookish places.
SPEAKER_02Um you had told me about the restaurant, you know, that here the press, which is sort of sort of book related, but just about other bookish places where you go, where you read, your bookish, like what you were saying, you know, that your bookstore that you go to is a happy place, and those those type of places, maybe.
SPEAKER_03That's like you know what I do after people give me a question to use in future interviews? I turn it on them. Yeah. So you get to pick because you were living near Mumbai and now you're in Goa. So either place. What is a bookish place you can share with our listeners?
SPEAKER_02Uh well, actually, it's always obviously some e it's a quiet place in terms of I mean, I can also read in a Starbucks, for instance. Uh that's fine too. However, I think it helps when there's a sort of zen atmosphere in the place.
SPEAKER_03Can you give us a specific place? And we promise not to go and and uh and talk you.
SPEAKER_02When you come to either maybe when you come to Goa, you can probably find me there, and you're more than welcome to talk to me there. However, there's a few expats there, so please be careful. So in Goa, uh I'm very close living to the capital city of Goa, which is Panjum. And uh they have a little slightly secuded secluded gallery, museum type of thing, very small, quiet quiet, and they have a courtyard, and around that courtyard is a cafe, basically. That cafe seating during summertime, it's outdoor seating. In the rain time, it's basically only on the um porch. And it's just a small little cafe, they have very nice coffee, uh food also, uh, but it's just that sort of gallery feel around it, and secluded, this closed courtyard feel, and it's not like buzzing with tourists, but very, very nice. Um, so I absolutely love that place. Uh, it's called Cafe Buddhiga.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, B D G A.
SPEAKER_02Otherwise, uh in Mumbai I have to give a shout out here. Um, I absolutely I love chai, like the Indian chai. I I drink tea anyway, but Indian chai specifically, and there is a chai at uh Taj Mahal tea house. I think that's memorable in Bandra, Mumbai. And my friends will love now because they know I I like you can find me there probably almost every other day or something. And it's a brilliant place because it's a like a bungalow they took, they renovated inside and out, which is a special special thing in Mumbai. You usually only do up the inside, so it's done up inside and out, and it has this really old world charm, and it has those different seating. You can have your own uh armchair where you can rest. They have books standing everywhere. So if you forgot your own book, and then they have those terrific chives, different chives, basically vanilla coconut chai. When you go there, I can only recommend. And uh the staff there is fantastic. We need to go right now.
SPEAKER_03Yes, plane. Let's get back on a plane. You can get a yeah, we can do this. We can be back in a few hours. Yeah. We head out. Oh, the thing I was gonna tell you earlier. I'm gonna keep this in here because I'll just include a wreck of my own. Why not? Garden Books and Shanghai. They have oh no, no, you're I went there. Did you go? Did you have the gelato? Which seems like a weird combination for Shanghai, but ice cream's not really a Chinese thing. So they tend to bring in European uh ice creams and whatnot, which is wise because the American ice cream sucks. Um so so why not? Um include chocolate and other things. But anyway, the p the point is they have I don't even know where the gelato is from, but it is disturbingly good. Like like global good, not just good for China. Oh my god, no, it's a good thing. And so, yeah, and you can actually get they have this uh things change a lot in Shanghai. But last time I was there, they had this sampler thingy where you could pick three flavors, and I believe it was three flavors in a coffee or something like that for a certain price. It's not cheap, it's Shanghai, but it's garden books, so you've got a variety of local and foreign books in English and in other languages.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's among them, for instance, German, which completely blew me away. It's like the I looked through those German books like most random.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_03Too funny, yeah. And they have the gelato, so you can sit in there. And it because there's so many cafes in that neighborhood, it is not generally packed. It's one of the few places in Shanghai you can go and get a seat.
SPEAKER_02It's and it's it's gorgeous also to walk. I I love that street uh around there, and uh yeah, it's beautiful. And otherwise the international bookstore that I went to, uh they don't have coffee, I'm sorry, no, but they have like the selection of books there I found impressive, both in terms of uh like you know, foreign authors, but also Chinese books in uh in English. So that was really, really great.
SPEAKER_03Fujolu F-U-Z-H-O-U. That's basically Book Street. It's funny, one of the books that's behind you was the story in it was built revolves around this family that had, if I remember right, the entire block or two of Fujolu, because it's not that long of a street. So the because people had very large properties at the time that the book was written, and so the family had that street.
SPEAKER_04Wow.
SPEAKER_03And so I was reading that after being a big fan of the bookstores and the and the calligraphy shops and all that that's on Fujolu. I'm reading that going, you owned the whole street. That street. Are you kidding? And it's a true story. Yeah. So um, I forget the name of the book right now because my brain is fried, but I will put it down in the show notes for the listeners, and I will definitely tell you as soon as we move that chair. I have the world's smallest living room, by the way. But yeah, I can't thank you enough for coming here and doing this.
SPEAKER_02For something you saw last minute. This was literally a matter of two weeks. No possible.
SPEAKER_03This this this is what the internet is for.
SPEAKER_02Shout out to Instagram.
SPEAKER_03Seriously, shout out to Instagram, to Nicole, to all kinds of things that make make stuff like this possible. And shout out to all of the free software that goes into making this podcast. And of course, to the lovely listeners who listen to these these long conversations about bookish expat y things.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_03And and future episodes like this. Yes. Very cool. Oh, oh, oh, we can't forget the most important thing. If listeners want to connect with you online, how should they do that? Yes, please do.
SPEAKER_02So, as I mentioned, actually now during the podcast, I have uh two channels. Uh, one is the expat channel. The Instagram is uh craving expat life, and the book is uh one uh my kingdom for a book. Oh, that's good. Yes, uh Shakespeare sort of uh it's my horse for a book, but uh for kingdom, but uh it's yeah, my my book for a king shit. I need to do it.
SPEAKER_03That's fine. I'll put it down in the show notes. Whichever way it goes, I'll put it down in the show notes. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Contact me either bookwise or expert-wise, I'm happy.
SPEAKER_03Awesome. Well, thank you very much. And while we're thanking everybody, let me thank you, the wonderful listeners of Bookish Expats. It's because of you that I've continued to make this podcast in all of its incarnations. Additionally, Damon Castillo has graciously allowed us to use his music from the Mess of Me album on this podcast. You can find his information at Damoncastillo.com. If you have any questions, comments, or concerns or want to volunteer to be a guest on Bookish Expats, please do contact me at Def Fuccio S T U P H F U C C I O. And that is my handle absolutely everywhere. It's also my Gmail address. We'll also be adding Bookish Expat social media once we get closer to July. Thank you so much, and more soon.
SPEAKER_00School is back, and so is the JCPenney mystery sale. How much will you save? Hurry in store for a coupon giveaway while they last. You could peel and reveal an extra 30, 40, or even 50% off store wide. Sale and Sunday, extended store hours Friday and Saturday. Shopping is back, and the savings are too. JCPenney. Coupon Belleton Select Styles 37 exclusive supply. Giveaway in store only must be 18 years or older C Store or JCP.com for details.
SPEAKER_01Ask Serwyn Williams during the Endless Summer Sale, August 26th through September 5th, and get 30% off paints and stains with prices starting at $29.39. That means 30% off our most popular color family. Blue. Psychologists have found it to be soothing and relaxing, which makes it especially great for bedrooms and bathrooms. And of course, 30% off all of our other colors. Stop the sale online or visit your neighborhood Sherman Williams store. Click the banner to learn more. Retail sales only limited questions of life store for details.