Stephanie:
Welcome to the Expat Rewind Podcast. This podcast is part of the Expat Rewind Pod Tube experience, which is part podcast and part YouTube channel. In the podcast, I will interview other expats about something that helped them get through their first year in a new country. It can be something they wrote, a book they read, or even a social media feed.

In the YouTube channel, I will share a blog that I wrote when I first moved to Taiwan in 2003. I have spent the majority of the past 15 years living overseas as an expat and hearing stories about people's experiences overcoming culture shock. And I'd like to share these stories with you.

In season three, the Expat Rewind podcast will be published about every five weeks. I'm really excited to have you listen to this conversation that I had with expat Mosibel from the More Civil Podcast. Mo grew up in Nigeria and she loved radio so much that this paved the way for her to start podcasting herself. She moved to the US in 2011. In her own words, she says she consumed more than her body weight in podcasts. I think we are such like souls on that front.

She describes the More Civil Podcast as a show about culture and cultural nomads designed for Blacks and Asians and those who love them. And as she says, who doesn't that cover?

Mo describes herself as a Nigerian-born, US-educated, Korean-speaking, struggling intellectual. Without further ado, let's get to Mo.

Thank you so much, Mo, for joining us on Expat Rewind.

Mo:
Thanks for having me.

Stephanie:
So let's jump in. You're going to read something for us today. An artifact from the first year in a new country. Can you set the scene on when, where, and how, and all that kind of good stuff?

Mo:
This was the year 2011. It was also the year I had just moved to the US from Nigeria. And this was, I'd say, two months after my move into the US.

I love people. I mean, I enjoy people to a certain degree, but I noticed that every time I went somewhere my husband was just like, so where are you guys from? What are your names? Oh, so pretty, you speak English so well.

And that’s why I said, oh my gosh, not again. And I think that particular day I just wasn't even having it. And so I had gone on Facebook, and as you can see, I had my BlackBerry phone then, way back when Research In Motion was still a thing.

It was through my BlackBerry phone, and I wrote, hi everyone. My name is Tolani and this is my husband Taiwo. These are not our real names. We are under the witness protection program, and yes, we do speak English.

Looking back now, I thought it was a bit childish of me, really, in a way, because I begged those people that were just asking those questions. Sometimes people are probably just curious about our culture. And because I had just moved to the US, I used to wear a lot of Nigerian attire, and that would make us stand out.

So maybe they just felt bold to ask us where are you guys from? I love your dress. There were so many things that I didn't consider in context when I put that post up. But at least I'm glad I did, because I can imagine how far I've come now.

Nowadays, I probably wouldn't put up such a post. I like to engage people more to find out what exactly they want to know. Are you really curious about my culture, or are you just being a jerk about it?

Stephanie:
We often joke, not just in China but in Northeast Asia, there are generally five questions people always ask you. In China specifically it’s like, where are you from, why are you here, did you eat, do you have children, how old are you, how much do you make, how much do you pay in rent?

Mo:
Why did you just throw in a question in the mix? How much do you weigh?

Stephanie:
Sometimes if it’s woman to woman, they’ll ask that too.

Mo:
This is like going from first base to fifth base without even asking the person’s name.

But we have to consider cultural context. If we translate those questions directly to English, they sound rude. Some Chinese people may actually think those questions are rude too, but there’s a reason people ask them. Maybe it’s time. Maybe it’s the perception that Asians are more direct in some areas than Westerners.

Stephanie:
And they ask each other these questions. It’s not just the foreigner effect.

Mo:
But I can imagine how puzzling it is for a foreigner. Like, wait, what? How much do I weigh? How much do I earn?

Stephanie:
Yeah. Hearing them ask each other, you realize it’s not about you specifically.

So do you get asked questions like that now when people meet you?

Mo:
Yeah, a lot. And I think for me, as a Nigerian living in the US, I stand out. The way I sound. Oh, you have an accent. And FYI, everybody has an accent.

My hairstyle, because I have dreads, that makes me stand out. My look, my skin tone, that tells a story.

And through my platform, the stories I share, I get asked a lot of questions. I think it’s important to give people the benefit of the doubt. We live in a climate where people are scared of asking questions because they don’t want to be perceived as racist or xenophobic.

So I try to approach things through cultural curiosity. I want to show people the beauty of pluralism. I’ll always be Nigerian, but I want to embrace both identities and help people see we can learn from each other.

Stephanie:
Do you ask them questions back?

Mo:
Oh, I do. Always. And sometimes they’re shocked.

I ask, where did your forefathers migrate from? Have you been there? Do you plan to go?

Not in a confrontational way, but to make them think. There’s nothing like being “just American.” Everyone is from somewhere. Everybody has a story.

Stephanie:
Sometimes I think people ask those questions because they want to tell you their story.

Mo:
Exactly. And it’s funny how immigrants interact. We don’t start with where are you from. We usually start with what we’re miserable about.

Stephanie:
What do people say is the worst thing?

Mo:
It depends on the phase. As a student it was immigration issues and not being able to go home. Now it’s taxes. There’s always something.

Stephanie:
Same in Shanghai. It’s a very privileged existence for expats. I catch myself complaining and then think, did I have a better job back home? Probably not.

Mo:
Probably not.

Stephanie:
Let’s move on to the next one.

Mo:
This was September 30, 2011. It wasn’t until the day I walked all the way home that I realized how fast cars go.

Coming to the US as a grad student meant a big financial adjustment. I had a good-paying job in Nigeria. Coming here meant stipends and living below what I was used to.

I couldn’t afford a car my first year, so I relied on buses. One day I missed the bus and had to walk home. This was before Uber. Calling a cab would have cost about $20, which was a lot then.

Walking home humbled me. I realized people do this every day, and for me it was just a one-off moment.

Stephanie:
I’m sorry, I’m looking up the Nigerian currency.

Mo:
Naira.

Stephanie:
It’s beautiful. Every place has beautiful currency except the US.

Mo:
It’s beautifully weak.

Stephanie:
What were you doing in Nigeria before grad school?

Mo:
I’m a pharmacist by profession. I worked with Chevron and with an HIV clinic connected to Harvard PEPFAR. I was doing well financially.

Coming to grad school was a step down financially, but I knew it was temporary. And now I’m doing better than I ever have.

Stephanie:
Nice. And that’s what should happen with education.

Mo:
I know. And as a grad student who isn’t from here, I also need to acknowledge my privilege. I didn’t come with student loans. I have friends who had to pay for undergrad and grad school here, and some of them are still paying those loans.

Stephanie:
Yeah.

Mo:
College debt here is a big deal. I don’t think college should be that expensive. The amount people pay here in one year funded all five years of my pharmacy school back home. I paid maybe three or four hundred dollars a year, and that was considered expensive.

Stephanie:
Wow.

Mo:
I know.

Stephanie:
I remember when I went to Cal Poly in California. California Polytechnic State University at San Luis Obispo. I graduated in 2001. The fees were about seven hundred dollars per quarter. We were on the quarter system, so at least three quarters a year.

That felt cheap compared to other places, but the cost of living was high. Coastal California, mid twenties, not wanting to live in a dorm with six other people, wanting a car. Most of my loans honestly came from lifestyle, not school.

And science books were brutal. Two hundred dollars each, new editions constantly. It felt like they were making it hard to get an education.

Mo:
I think the college debt issue here is a serious problem.

Stephanie:
Did I hear you right that you had a pharmacy degree in Nigeria and then came to the US and did another degree?

Mo:
Yes. In Nigeria I got my bachelor’s in pharmacy. Then I came here and got a master’s and a PhD. The field is health economics and outcomes research. Some programs call it social and administrative pharmacy.

My diploma says Doctor of Philosophy, which is broad. But if you look at my CV, you’d see I’m more of a health economics person.

Stephanie:
Wow. All right. Should we go to the next one?

Mo:
We go to the next one.

Stephanie:
Remind me how many we have total so I can time this.

Mo:
I think I can do three more after this one. I originally gave you about thirteen, but some were similar stories.

Stephanie:
Okay.

Mo:
This one is quite long, so brace yourself. This was September 2011. A lot of gems were dropped that year.

People I want to talk to right now are so distant from me. Everyone has gotten carried away with their busy lives. Life was simpler back when we had no worries. Wherever you are, if I’ve ever touched your life in any way, remember this status is dedicated to you and the memories I have left of you.

This was before WhatsApp and Messenger. Facebook was where you went to communicate. And by people, I meant those I left behind.

Leaving Nigeria and starting again in my twenties was one of the bravest things I did. You leave friends behind. Your culture erodes a little. You try to homogenize your culture with the dominant one.

I felt homesick a lot. Writing was how I expressed that. At first people still call and check in. Then people drop off. Not because of anything bad, but because life moves on.

There’s also the time difference. By the time you get home, you’re tired, and it’s midnight back home. I realized that many friends I made in my twenties weren’t around anymore.

I’m very social. I get energy from people. So having to start over was hard. I still have friends where when we reconnect, it’s like we never parted. But there were people I wished I could see and talk to every day. That post reflected homesickness.

Stephanie:
I identify with that so much. You’re from Lagos, right?

Mo:
Mm.

Stephanie:
After university, do people usually stay in the same place or move around the country?

Mo:
It depends. There’s a one year mandatory national service program after college. You’re often sent to a different part of the country to experience other cultures.

I grew up in the southwest and was sent to the north. Some people stay where they’re posted and build lives there.

But Lagos is the center of attraction. It’s like New York. People feel if you make it in Lagos, you can make it anywhere. That leads to overpopulation, traffic, pollution, and underdeveloped regions elsewhere.

Stephanie:
The reason I ask is because in the US there are two big moving periods. After high school and after university. That’s when people move across the country.

Mo:
That feeling of isolation you mentioned really resonated. People who were geographically close suddenly aren’t. You’re across the country or across the world, or you’re too tired to reach out.

Stephanie:
Yeah.

Mo:
Nigeria has many languages, but three major ones. Yoruba, Hausa, and Igbo. English is official, but not indigenous.

I’m Yoruba. When people move within the southwest, they’re not losing cultural familiarity because the language is the same.

Most Nigerians are bilingual. English plus a native language. Writing Yoruba was harder for me than speaking it.

Stephanie:
I’m always amazed because so many Nigerian authors write in English so well.

Mo:
We were colonized by the British. English is used in school and official documents. Almost everyone speaks it.

Stephanie:
All right. Next one.

Mo:
This one is from October 2011. It’s a quote by Florence Nightingale.

To understand God’s thoughts, we must study statistics, for these are the measure of His purpose.

I didn’t know Florence Nightingale was also a statistician. For her, statistics wasn’t just a subject, it was a religion.

I love statistics. Math and statistics are the foundation of science. It excited me then and still excites me now.

Stephanie:
Have you always felt that way about math?

Mo:
No. I was scared of math growing up. My dad had to force me to do assignments.

Then I had a tutor before college. It was like being touched by an angel. Suddenly math made sense. I applied to study chemical engineering because I loved math and science.

In grad school I took more statistics classes than required. I love data. I still do.

Stephanie:
I love hearing women say that. I love math too. I like the logic, the rhythm, the ability to test ideas with numbers.

Mo:
It really comes down to having the right teacher. I’m a visual learner. I need logic, not just rules.

That’s why I got a PhD. I ask why. Growing up, teaching was one size fits all. That didn’t work for everyone.

Stephanie:
That classroom model is still common globally. Teachers talk at students instead of letting them experience the subject. It’s frustrating.

Mo:
Slowly things are changing.

Stephanie:
I hope so.

Mo:
The internet might save us.

Stephanie:
As long as people don’t spend all their time on social media first.

Mo:
I know.

Stephanie:
I love how you talk about math and learning math. And here’s some math I’d like to throw your way as well. If you like this conversation, if you like the podcast episodes you’ve heard so far of Expat Rewind, I’d like to ask you to do one small thing for me. Could you pass this podcast on to other people you think would like it?

You could screenshot the episode and upload it to social media, share the link expatrewind.podbean.com, or tell people any way you think is good. 2019 is my year to share and grow this podcast. I really appreciate your help.

Speaking of social media, let’s go to the next one.

Mo:
That’s a good segue. I think I have two more. This one is really short.

To be or not to be an organ donor. This was September 16, 2016. I had gone to the DMV to get my license and there was a form asking if I wanted to be an organ donor. No one had ever asked me that before.

It made me pause. These are serious ethical issues, but you’re expected to answer quickly. There’s no time to go home and think about it.

It also made me feel included in a strange way. As an immigrant, you’re excluded from many things. Suddenly it felt like, I’m not good enough for a green card, but my organs are good enough? That thought really stayed with me.

Stephanie:
That’s wild. What did you end up choosing?

Mo:
I said no at the time. My husband was worried and I didn’t want to rush the decision.

Stephanie:
Do you think you might change it in the future?

Mo:
Yes. I donate blood regularly. I’ve thought more about it. As a Christian, I believe the body stays here but the soul moves on. If my organs could help someone, that matters.

But these decisions shouldn’t be rushed. Your next of kin should understand and agree. It’s a big responsibility.

Stephanie:
That’s such a cultural difference. When I moved back to China, I actually started thinking about it more because of traffic and safety.

Mo:
I didn’t see that question coming at all. It needed more context.

Stephanie:
The last thing you want when you’re nervous about a driving test is to think about dying.

Mo:
Exactly. That’s a deep conversation, not a checkbox.

Stephanie:
Grey’s Anatomy taught me way too much about organ donation.

Mo:
My condolences. I stopped watching a long time ago.

Stephanie:
Everyone dies on that show.

Mo:
Exactly.

Stephanie:
All right, what’s next?

Mo:
This is another signature quote I’ve used for years.

Be cautious to all, but intimate with few, and let those few be well tried before you give them your confidence. This is by George Washington.

It reflects how I relate to people. I’m kind to everyone, but not everyone belongs in my inner circle. I had to learn boundaries.

I used to give everyone access. That cost me emotionally. Now I’m more discerning. Not unkind, just intentional.

Stephanie:
Did you learn that before or after moving to the US?

Mo:
After. The universe kept sending me the lesson until I learned it. A close friend betrayed my trust deeply. It changed me, but not in a bitter way.

I didn’t want to become distrustful of everyone. I just learned to protect my energy. VIP access only.

Stephanie:
That’s a powerful lesson.

Mo:
I’m still learning it.

Stephanie:
I had similar experiences living in Los Angeles. People reinvent themselves there. It’s hard to tell who someone really is. I had to learn quickly for survival.

Mo:
Especially in your twenties. You’re still figuring things out.

Stephanie:
Exactly.

Mo:
My final one is by George Washington Carver.

How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving, and tolerant of the weak and strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these.

This taught me kindness toward myself. I was good at caring for others but not myself.

There’s an African proverb. Never trust a mad naked person giving you clothes. You must take care of yourself first.

Stephanie:
That’s incredibly inspiring.

Mo:
Thank you.

Stephanie:
Looking at all seven posts, are you surprised by anything?

Mo:
I’m more patient now. I approach questions with curiosity instead of defensiveness. I see myself as an ambassador and use diplomacy.

I don’t want people to feel uncomfortable asking questions. I just want the motive to be genuine.

Stephanie:
What question would you rather people ask instead of where are you from?

Mo:
There’s no perfect question. It’s about intention. Ask with curiosity, not judgment.

Ask about my name, what it means, something you noticed. Make it human.

Stephanie:
That’s a really good point.

Mo:
Learning Korean helped me understand this deeply. The kindness I received made me want to extend the same patience to others.

Stephanie:
Where can listeners find you?

Mo:
My website is mosibyl.com. I’m on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, KakaoTalk, and YouTube. Everything is linked there.

If you want to be on my podcast, you’re welcome.

Stephanie:
She’s a great host, by the way.

Mo:
Thank you.

Stephanie:
What does your name mean?

Mo:
My first name is Motolani. It means someone of prestige. I have twelve names, but we won’t go through all of them.

Names in Yoruba culture carry meaning and history.

Stephanie:
Do all twelve appear on your passport?

Mo:
Absolutely not.

Stephanie:
Mo, thank you so much. This has been truly amazing.

Mo:
Thank you for having me. This was fun and nostalgic.

Stephanie:
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Expat Rewind. More coming your way soon.