Hannah:

Well, you can call me Hannah. I am originally from the United States, from the state of Minnesota. It's in the north, pretty close to Canada. I am currently a graduate student at Dijon University studying Comparative literature, and I am also interning at Sixth Tone as an editor.

Steph:

Fantastic. Should we dive in?

Hannah:

We shall.

Steph:

All right. Do you want to kind of give us an idea of where it came from and when it was published and that kind of thing?

Hannah:

Sure. The piece that I am going to be sharing I wrote for the Shanghai Literary Review's special edition called Concrete. The piece is called In Search of White Snake. I actually wrote it just this past year, but it's about my first year in China. I was a very different person at the time. I had just graduated from college. I was this young 22 year old. So not only was I graduating from college, but also going to this very different environment. And I was also coming from this hyper creative environment with my friends. And it was just a learning experience in many ways. And so this piece kind of reflects on what brought me to China, which was this fairy tale and kind of the disillusionment that comes from realizing that life is not a fairy tale.

Steph:

All right, let's dive in.

Hannah:

Okay. In Search of White Snake if I were to say that a snake brought me to Hangzhou, I'm sure others might think I had drank too much baijiu or dropped my sanity somewhere in West Lake. But it's true. I didn't move to Hangzhou for the deep perfume of its osmanthus petals or Jack Ma's alibaba. I moved because of a snake. Madam Whitesnake, to be precise. I encountered her not in a cosmic act of fate like that in her legend, but in Iowa, while sitting in a library Carol surrounded by offensively orange carpet. I'd been researching Chinese ghost stories for my senior thesis when I found her coiled in her own Hangzhou, that is within the pages of the story of the White Snake. The Midwest is not always known for being a fantastical land, despite its many natural wonders. And yet, even if I had lived in a veritable wasteland, I could have turned it into paradise. I could find meaning in dust motes, I told my roommate with pride. I wove tales together, walking around old buildings and seeing petrified skulls where there were only rocks. My friends and I went on night walks and drank in the stars. As. As the night obscured the terrible clarity of the world around us, we let the darkness elongate all the more so that we could imagine something better. I saw ruins of A prayer circle where most saw a rounded bench. I saw a last refuge from a zombie apocalypse when others saw a crumbling bridge. When I studied Chinese characters in class, I let the ancient shapes take me far away in Chinese. Something as commonplace as a computer transformed for me into the literal dianao, or electric brain. And it seemed I didn't need to scrutinize the language so much to find poetry in the everyday. The world could be so beautiful, so fantastical, I thought, if only I could choose the more exciting version of what was already there. I began to study Chinese mythology and ghost stories, delving into the pages of wondrous legends like that of Madame White Snake, and was not disappointed. The story of the White Snake is about two snake spirits, Bai Suzhen and Xiao Qing, who transform into beautiful maidens and enter Hangzhou on the broken bridge. There they meet a man named Shu Xian, whom Bai falls in love with. The two quickly marry. This incurs the wrath of the monk FA Hai, who knows perfectly well that Bai is actually a snake spirit. He informs Shu of his wife's true identity, and Shuu dies from shock, leading to a string of adventures to bring him back to life. In the end, FA Hai traps Bai under Lei Fung Pagoda for all eternity. In other versions, she actually bests the monk and opens a medicine shop and starts a family with Shu. There is no definitive version of Madame White Snake, which is perhaps what drew me closer to her. She could be transfigured and immortalized in a story, any story, no matter the world around her, whereas I could only hope to land a good job and carve out time for writing. Madam Whitesnake could shapeshift and go on death defying adventures for love. She was the kind of character I imagined I could be as a child and the kind I didn't like being compared to as an adult for fear of seeing how I came up short. She fought for things, she followed her heart, and she went to strange places for their strangeness, not because anybody told her to go. Back in that library in Iowa, I read names like Leifung Pagoda and Broken Bridge and imagined a Hangzhou in which people walked in long robes with gods and goats at their sides. Hong Joe. Even before I knew what it meant, it sounded poetic. Without even trying, as I picked the name apart and sought its literal or even obscure meanings, I learned that there were radicals for trees and rivers and Hongzhou's name, Hongzhou. The Hong character could also mean across stream or navigation. Most would correct me and say that Hong was merely an abbreviation for the city's name, but I was more than willing to see it as a place for navigation, where loose pieces could come together. It sounded like a place where I could be part of a waking dream. And as my thesis reached its conclusion and I began to think of moving to China to teach English after graduation, I came back to this idea of Hangzhou again and again. Where else but in Hangzhou could stories blossom about a white snake with a mouth like a red cavern, dodging a monk like FA Hai? Where else would FA Hai, the original vigilante, run around to capture renegade demons? I knew very little about Hangzhou in actuality outside of its superlatives and slogans, but I already had a Hangzhou in mind and wanted to keep my version alive as long as possible on the plain. I swallowed my creeping doubts and instead imagined myself at the prologue of my own version of the story of the White Snake. I wondered how Madam White Snake would fit into the fabric of my new home. Would she be a heroine, villain, demon, or lover? As I soon found out, she and the city I grew to love would be all of the above. About 9 million people live in Hangzhou. The city is a huge tourist attraction, bringing in thousands of visitors every holiday. This is to say that Hangzhou is very famous by Chinese standards, and while I thought I knew what crowds were like growing up in my population 50,000 hometown of Lakeville, Minnesota, I was in absolutely no way prepared for what would greet me once I landed. I wandered the block around my apartment, which was in Hangzhou's industrial zone, Xiaxa. Rather than gods and ghosts, I ran into factory workers gathered who stared at me like I was the snake spirit, and watched as the polluted, swollen sun set halfway down, the sky bleeding orange into the horizon's haze. Xiaxa wasn't even a city, and yet towering apartment complexes and streets of shopping centers and restaurants dazzled my eyes. This is China, where people live in the sky, a co worker of mine said. At night, I looked down at apartment towers with lights twinkling from other rooms, my own constellations. Where would a ghost hide amid so much life and chaos? And yet, in spite of discovering a much more modern Hangzhou than I was prepared for, I was also happy to know that certain landmarks from the story still stood. Within my first week, I made a trip downtown, and much of the city's natural beauty and mystical poetic flair still shone through the congested streets. While standing in the midst of gray buildings, I caught glimpses of the lush green hills on the other side of West Lake. One side of the lake an urban fugue, the other a green refuge. The causeways in the middle stretched like dashes in a poem, as if taking a breath connecting two seemingly opposite ideas. After a couple months of busy adjustment, I went out to Lei Fung Pagoda, Madam White Snake's final resting place. I was sure that there I would find the true Hongzhou. At the time, I wasn't sure how to get where I needed to go, a deceptively simple problem that has since become my life's tagline. To complicate things, my mother had come to visit me for Christmas, and while I was excited to show her around, I simply didn't know how to do that yet. To get to Leifang Pagoda, I resorted to asking locals for directions. With broken Chinese and a not to scale tourist map, I decided to use my best 2 out of 3 method, discovering that if 2 out of 3 people pointed me in one direction, it was likely to be more or less accurate. Passersby Jesper gestured further down the road, saying, not far. In the end, an old woman with a large canvas bag told us to follow her, and together we boarded a bus. It clanked along the streets, passengers wedged into the aisles, stops listed in. Then illegible Chinese characters clicked by, and I turned to the old woman to watch her reaction while also smiling confidently for my mom's sake. Not yet, the old woman said. Couple more stops. The bus clanked on. Much of downtown Hangzhou, blurred by the neon signs for restaurants, karaoke bars, and towering shopping centers, clanged like a pinball machine in my head, and I could only imagine how my mother had felt. At each stop, five more people got off and six or more people got on. I edged closer to the window and sought the skies reflected off of the windows or the clumps of camphor trees that signaled the arrival of the lake. The apartment complexes thinned, the lakeside greenery thickened. I leaned closer to the windows, excitement stirring once more. Hey, hey, foreigner. The old woman was gesturing wildly to the door. As the bus slowed to a stop, we squeezed our way through the crowded walkway and finally got off. We were greeted by a sleek, trim pagoda with a double escalator leading to the entrance. Is this it? My mother said. I nodded, and we followed the trickle of tourists inside. The atmosphere felt akin to visiting a memorial, given its photos and models of the original. Along the walls, plaques reminded us of the original pagoda and showed pictures of it and the process of reconstruction that followed. The pagoda was not like a new piece of art but a reminder of how glorious the tower once was, and what a pity that we could no longer enjoy it. To drive this point home, we went to the lowest level, to the original yellow and cracked foundations of the old tower. It glimmered from coins that tourists tossed inside for good luck, obscured by the glass's reflection of curious faces peeking inside. Of course, I had not expected to see an actual fictional snake spirit, nor did I think it would be the same as what stories say, but I had hoped that even a glimmer of its magic would still be there. It wasn't. If anything, I wondered if it's sometimes better to view events or places from a distance, to let imagination aggrandize and fictionalize them. Lei Feng Pagoda, when seen from across the lake, rose out of the green tapestry as an emblem of when the world of ghosts and mortals collided. Up close, it was a memorial unto itself. I think it's nice, my mom said as we walked away. Can't say I was expecting escalators, though. Yeah, I said. You know, China is really modern and has changed a lot, and it's so important to appreciate that. My mom paused for a moment. True, she said. But then, there's nothing wrong with feeling otherwise. I don't. I love all parts of Hangzhou, I replied quickly. For the rest of the day, we walked through Hangzhou's tiered green fields of tea. From where we stood, the downtown skyline disappeared behind the hills. I wouldn't admit it, but I experienced something like relief that day as I watched the city disappear. Bai Shi Zhuan, my student, Penny said, enunciating each tone carefully for my benefit. This was right after I'd led my first English class as a university teacher, a mere four months after I graduated from college myself. You said you'd read the story of the White snake. It's very romantic. Yes, some versions of it are romantic, I said, recalling how in earliest versions of the story, Madam White Snake was actually the villain, not the lovelorn hero. Have you read it? Penny shook her head. Oh, no. But I've watched the TV series. You should find it. It would be good for your Chinese. My Chinese isn't that bad, right? Right. Of course it would be interesting. Then who knows? It might help you find your Shu Xian. She giggled. I smiled and tried to play it off, unaware that this would be the ongoing narrative for many classes to come. Whether the question took the subtle form of Penny's remark or the blunt do you have a boyfriend? Why not find a Chinese boyfriend? This idea of romance found on places like the Broken Bridge was alive and well. From a narrative point of view, it would check a lot of story arc boxes for me to travel to the land of Madame White Snake, walk along the Broken Bridge and meet my soulmate as I handed him an umbrella. Just like in that first fated meeting between Madam Whitesnake and Xu Xian. But then, I also knew that my reasons for leaving my familiar haunts were not nearly so conc. For my students, romance was the kind of sweeping gesture that for them was best encapsulated in the city Paris. There, romantic French men would sweep girls off their feet and take them on whirlwind adventures. Like true Prince Charmings, I visited Paris, and while parts of it were indeed romantic, I would not say that it's known for fairy tale princes. On the streets, where my students saw gentlemen, I saw guys trying to get laid. While my students talked about the Eiffel Tower as a symbol of love, I could only think about the vendors down below selling knockoff keychains. In this sense, Hangzhou's West Lake was akin to my view of Paris's Eiffel Tower. Back in Iowa, I read about West Lake and pictured a willow laden refuge where poets and fairy tales came alive. As my college friends and I spent time creating radio shows, poems, splatter paintings, and really anything we could get our hands on. During our last couple months at school, I thought of Hangzhou as a sort of natural habitat where others would be just as hungry to create. But as I walked along Westlake's concrete shore with its tourist carts blaring a tinny rendition of the classical piece the Butterfly Lovers Concerto down sidewalks through jostling crowds, I thought of the Eiffel Tower keychains again and again. They had been created by someone, sure, but for a purpose that was not art. I quickly learned that Westlake itself was man made. Unlike the creation myth that had been ascribed to it, the myth sounded lovely. A teardrop, a pearl, and other striking images that would have delighted me back in my little library, Carol surrounded by the blaringly orange carpet. But the guilt was beginning to wear off, no matter my poetic slant. Back in the US my same creative friends were struggling to find postgraduate work. Our sprawling creative hours were slowly being sidelined by necessary everyday concerns. They told me that I should stay in China as long as possible and live out the dream as long as I could. And yet it was becoming harder to see Hangzhou gleam for me like it had before. I had to get closer to Madam Whitesnake. Only then Would her story come alive once more? In a last ditch attempt suffused with irony, I went to the Hangzhou zoo to view the city's collection of snakes. Rain spattered the ground as I reached the entrance embedded in the hilly southern portion of Hangzhou. I walked in, splashing through wide puddles, and entered a hallway full of cages. A reticulated python coiled in a pool of water far away from the glass, but I received a shock when I saw the Hundred Pacer cage. The maroon speckled snake had its belly pressed against the glass, inching itself toward the vent above. The reptile area had green pit vipers, black adders, Chinese cobras, garter snakes, and stink snakes along the walls. Diagrams indicated how far a snake could unhinge its jaw, while other diagrams showed how the internal organs stretched to f fit into the thin body. I drank in these ghastly, unbelievable details, the blare of the city disappearing behind me. Strolling down the hallway, I learned that many of these fearsome snakes were indigenous to the general area of Hangzhou. And yet, in the time I'd spent in Hangzhou, I had only seen one snake, and it had been purely by accident. Snakes stay away from people if they can help it, one of the zoo workers said. He was a short man with dark green rubber boots. Do they ever attack people? I said. Not usually. We don't taste very good anyway. He blew a slow pillar of smoke out of his mouth and back up into his nostrils. Where's the white snake? I said. You know, like the story. He made the same gesture that many pedestrians in Hangzhou did when they knew the direction I needed but didn't have time to tell me. A little further ahead. It meant it's not far back. In the hallway of snakes, I reached the cage that read White Snake. The stories depicted a large white snake at one point able to coil itself around Xu Xian. If this was the case, then the white snake could be as big as the reticulated python, or worse. Of course, fiction exaggerates, so I prepared myself to see a white snake with a small ribbon like body, like that of a green pit viper. But after all my effort to get there, I saw nothing among the leaves, nothing other than a trail of paper like skin where the white snake had once been. As I waited for this incarnation of Madam White Snake to appear, I thought of how, even if her tale had taken place 100 years ago or even 50 years ago, she wouldn't recognize her city. Construction had added a skyline. Luxury brands and hotels dotted the downtown area and some pedestrians wore Gucci handbags like nametags. Who knows? She might start a successful Weibo account and slide smoothly into this new land. Or, as I saw in the empty snake skin in front of me, she might seek other abodes or escape before even giving it a chance. Madam Whitesnake journeyed out from a familiar, magical world to strike out a new life with different rules, I thought as I left the Hangzhou Zoo and entered the congested downtown Fugue. Is it so wrong to go to places specifically because they're so different? What happened when they were different in ways you didn't want them to be? I didn't have the answer to this, just as I didn't have the answer to many questions that had materialized in the time I'd moved across the Pacific Ocean. All I knew was that my time in the quiet, serene hills of Hangzhou and would inevitably come to an end. And that, like it or not, I had to leave its southern half and stomp onto the concrete shores once more. I had not seen Madam White Snake, at least not in the way I wanted. I could and would poeticize it however I wanted, but it would not be anything other than it was. It was like the white snake's discarded skin. The way I saw myself would at one point peel away, and there would be no use trying to reattach it. Once gone, no matter my fight to stay in old skin, it would scratch and chafe until it was time to remove it, and then there would only be what lay beneath. On my subsequent trips to the Broken Bridge, I could see why it held such importance to Madam Whitesnake's story. It spans West Lake and looks different every season. In the summer, the lotus leaves gasp open until they're taller than a person. In the fall, the trees are aflame with falling leaves. In winter, sometimes snow powders the bridge, making it look indeed broken in the middle. In spring, it all becomes a cool green mist. If lovers were to choose any Hangzhou spot to declare their love, this would be it. As I went there each time, I saw the ghosts of past stories all around. Of course, there were the more garish ones, vendors actually dressed in white ancient garb, selling umbrellas by the bridge to mimic the iconic opening scenes at the tale. Then the more subtle, a young couple admiring the lotus flowers with shy smiles in the mist. But inevitably, no Madam Whitesnake. I could never pinpoint the moment. But as I now walk along West Snake's West Lake's concrete shores, the rocks are no longer petrified skulls and the benches. Benches only. I still imagine what the lotus leaves could look like. But after years living in this Hangzhou, I now see lotus leaves. First, the mystical green willow trees that had enchanted me in Iowa blend with the concrete walkways. It's a funny thing, searching for a ghost. You think you can catch it, only to discover that by nature it can't be caught. I knew that I would never actually find Madam White Snake. And yet I had hoped to step into legend, to grasp an elusive truth embedded in the sway of those willows, to count myself among a privileged few, to say, ah, yes, Hangzhou. And know that it meant something. As the years passed in Hangzhou, I began to see Madam White Snake everywhere and nowhere, all at once. She was on postcards and she was in plays. She was on wood carvings, and she was in storybooks. The mystery of her romantic tale lived on in many corners of Hangzhou, and yet it was forever out of reach for those in pursuit of it. Like me, she was like Leifang Pagoda. Regal from a distance, disjointed up close. But then, my Hangzhou was also a fantasy land, an actual land, and everything in between. And so I imagine Madam Whitesnake today. I imagine her gliding through my Hangzhou in a long white robe, a relic of the old world caught in the new. Her fingers might curl around Xu Xian's umbrella as she navigates the city sprawl, robe fluttering in the breeze. Her lips might twist into a slight smile as she sees a bill for a theatrical rendition of her story. She might summon Xiao Qing, the green snake, to go see it with her. Or perhaps they decide to tuck in and download the TV series instead. As she strolls past three story shopping centers, she might finger soft silks or pass them up for an H and M instead. She might hum along with the Butterfly Lovers Concerto as she waits to cross the street. She might journey to Leifang Pagoda to peer into the old foundations of her prison. Or she might toss in a coin for good luck. She might return to the broken Bridge in the hopes that Xu Xian would find her someday. Or she might meet him on one of the elevated walkways downtown. Or as she winds her way through a now strange land, she might peer over her shoulder and disappear around a corner, the tail of her robe sliding along the concrete, skin shifting into white reptilian scales. Back into the world and out of sight. Thank you.

Steph:

Oh, my God. I have so many questions. Gosh, we've been going back and forth for a few months, and I think. I think I hope. The first time I contacted you, I mentioned that someone had recommended I read your story because they had lived in Hangzhou, and they really, really, really just thought it was amazing. So I was like, okay, cool. So I. I broke it out and I was like, oh, my gosh. And I got swept up in it.

Hannah:

Oh.

Steph:

And I said, well, no kidding, that's. That's a pretty amazing story. But what I. What I connected to when I read it versus when I was listening to it was not totally different, but different enough. Hmm. And I want to go into that eventually, but I want to focus on your first year in China. I want to stay focused. But I'm just. I'm amazed how different it is to read it versus listen to it. And that's. That's just really, really cool.

Hannah:

Okay.

Steph:

Point being, questions about you back then, I had to draw a timeline because I. I've.

Hannah:

I'm.

Steph:

I've forgotten the exact time differences. So the year that you actually went through your first year in China, what year was that?

Hannah:

I arrived in September 2012.

Steph:

2012.

Hannah:

Right.

Steph:

And the year that you wrote this was last year. 2017. Yeah.

Hannah:

I mean, I'd been. It's. It had been in the works for a couple years. So I think I started the first draft sometime 2016, far enough removed that it was still definitely looking back.

Steph:

Fair enough. The parallel between Madam Whitesnake's life and your life and her personality characteristics and your personality, and that is just so strong. Did you see yourself in her when you first read these stories? The story or stories?

Hannah:

I had read the original story, which was. I think he was called, like, the Prisoner under Thunder Peak Pagoda, which is supposed to be Leifong Pagoda. Sure. And I don't think. I don't think I saw myself like her at that time. I just thought, like, what a sweet story. Like a snake demon. And, like, all the stuff going on is so cool. I've always been kind of interested in more fantastical stories.

Steph:

Gotcha.

Hannah:

So I think I was more fascinated in that. I think I didn't really start to connect with her on a deeper level until I had actually come to China. And actually, I should mention my senior thesis, I had tried to write a version like that, utilized the white snake story into a kind of story. I mean, it's one of those stories where I've kind of just set it aside for now for I don't know how long, but it's definitely kind of a mess. But, like, so it delved more into her as the character, but I Will say, when I did start to see a connection, like, my poetic brain just, like, latched onto it, like, oh, my God, there is a connection.

Steph:

What is that connection?

Hannah:

Well, I think something that I was kind of exploring in the piece was just this idea of going into a strange land. But also there's a lot of transformation in the tale. Like, of course, there's literally transforming. She goes from being a snake to a human, but then she transforms from being this demon with no connection to the human world to marrying this guy and falling in love with him. And so there's some inner transformation, too. And so I think in many ways, I connected to that. This idea of traveling to a place very strange from your own, and then because of it, transforming into someone else. Something else.

Steph:

Yeah, there was definitely a changing and growing, a transforming, a metamorphosis, all of that in the story. And there's one part where you say, oh, how the universe tricks us into going to places we don't need to go. Wait, was that you or that me? Sorry, hold on.

Hannah:

It might have been you, but I like that line. It might have been me. It's not a great line, though. It's a good one.

Steph:

I wrote all over this, as you can kind of see.

Hannah:

I have so many questions.

Steph:

So, okay, maybe it was me, but I thought I was now, because I don't have it in quotes. Where did. Wait, so I think what I was. Sorry, I wrote these so long ago. At some point during the story, I was just like, oh, my gosh, the story. And Madame Whitesnake kind of tricked you into getting to China because you needed to be here for.

Hannah:

Right. Like, I asked myself that a lot, too. What initially drew me to China? I will say I had. I will say that I had a fascination with China for a long time. And so after I graduated, I honestly didn't have another option in mind. Like, for me, the next step was go to China.

Steph:

Yeah.

Hannah:

And it was. You know, this story made me interested in Hangzhou. As you could probably tell from the essay, I was interested in this idea of Hangzhou and, like, this mystical place. And so I guess so I guess, like, in a way, maybe it did trick me to going to Hangzhou in particular. But if it was a trick, then it was a very good fortuitous trick, because I did, actually, once I had settled more into Hangzhou, I did have a really wonderful time there. Yeah.

Steph:

Yeah. And how long were you there for?

Hannah:

Well, I was actually in Hangzhou on and off for six years.

Steph:

Wow. Okay.

Hannah:

Yeah, yeah. Significant amount of Time. First as an English teacher, then I went back to America for about six months, I think. And then as a graduate student, I was at Zhejiang University, which is also in Hong Kong.

Steph:

All right, now, you mentioned Iowa at the beginning. Were you at University of Iowa?

Hannah:

No, I went to Luther College, which was a small liberal arts school in Iowa. I realized that as I was reading, like I mentioned, I was from Minnesota. But then suddenly, here's. Iow, a lot of people go to.

Steph:

Universities in different states and whatnot. Okay. What part of Iowa is that?

Hannah:

It's actually in Decorah, which is near the north of Iowa. Oh. It's one of those things, like, you know. Okay. Decorah is. It's gorgeous. I'm not just saying this to, like, upsell part of my past. Like, it's. It's a gorgeous town.

Steph:

Yeah.

Hannah:

And like, there are, like, there's waterfalls and there's these bluffs and there's all kinds of hiking. Yeah, yeah, it's gorgeous. And so, like. And so, like, that's the thing. Like, I had all these. I had very imaginative friends. We'd walk around, like, having almost like children having imagination games, you know, but, like, it was already a very beautiful place. But definitely, like, very, like, people think of Iowa, they think of just like a bunch of cornfields. But, you know, that that was definitely not Decorah. And I think Iowa is actually a lot more diverse than that.

Steph:

Wow. Okay. That was the part of Iowa I lived in.

Hannah:

Oh, really? You lived in Decorah?

Steph:

No, no, no, not in there. I lived in Ames. I lived in the corn. Okay, okay, okay. Yeah, yeah. There were lots of lots and my school and then lots of student housing, and that was pretty much it.

Hannah:

Okay. So pretty different from Decorah then.

Steph:

Super different. And I thought it was going to be like, lots of great farmers market, lots of diversity of agriculture and that kind of thing, but it was such agribusiness that it wasn't the stuff that generally we were consuming necessarily.

Hannah:

So.

Steph:

Eh, it was still pretty and it snowed, which is beautiful in and of itself. So no complaints there. It was a nice place, but not as beautiful as that as Decorah sounds.

Hannah:

Decorah's gorgeous.

Steph:

Why did you write this? Because you wrote it about four years after you lived it, essentially. Why? What was the catalyst for writing it?

Hannah:

Well, I think I originally started thinking about it because around that time, or maybe a couple years before that, I don't remember, I tried to go back to that fictional story I'd written my senior year. I wanted to try and rework it. And that opened up this idea of, like, who I was at the time, because even through my writing style, I could kind of tell there was a sense of urgency there that. I mean, I still have a sort of urgency about me now, I guess, but, like, nothing compared to when you're in your early 20s. Like, everything feels like it has to be done right now or else, what is life?

Steph:

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Why isn't this done yesterday?

Hannah:

What.

Steph:

What's happening here?

Hannah:

So, like, going through this story and kind of reworking and looking at some of those details and started to kind of think about not just the story of the white snake, but how I fit into that. I guess the original reason I started writing it is there was, like, this travel writing competition I saw, and I thought, well, I'm gonna write about Hangzhou. But I ended up going in a very creative nonfiction route. I realized I had a lot to unpack there, and so I thought, maybe this isn't the right place to put this essay. Maybe I just need. I need to write it, but maybe I need to hold on to it for a bit.

Steph:

Oh, okay. So how long were you holding. How long did you hold onto it for? Before it found a home and is.

Hannah:

Concrete its first home or concrete is its first home? I had held onto this for maybe a year or so, and I always had at the back of my mind thinking, like, I think there is value in this, but I just need to find the right place to put it.

Steph:

Sure.

Hannah:

And I. And I'd gotten involved with the Shanghai Literary Review, and they had this coming out specifically about cities. And I thought, well, there you go. It's creative nonfiction about cities. And also, I. I know the editor, Julie, and she, like, was super great to work with, like, really great feedback.

Steph:

And stuff, so it was good. Now, I guess it's. This episode's gonna come out in a few weeks, but it's advantageous to say it's what, November 4th, and we're just past Halloween. And you had mentioned ghost stories. And, I mean, essentially, she is a ghost story, especially in that first year for you and even before that. Do you think of that story during Halloween or any particular time of the year? Is there any time when Madam Whitesnake comes up in your mind now? Hmm.

Hannah:

I guess I'm not sure I think about that specifically around Halloween, but it does. Like, I think about ghost stories a lot. I should probably say, like, not specifically around Halloween, but in general, I like ghost stories.

Steph:

Yeah.

Hannah:

Yeah, me too.

Steph:

What is it about ghost stories that you like? You Know, funny thing, I actually did.

Hannah:

Just write an essay about this, like, for Six Tone. I think it's this idea of, like, seeing something very strange as a reflection of you in a way. Like, you learn a lot about yourself by seeing something so strange outside of yourself. And I think sometimes, like, more conventional fiction can't quite do that. Like, you need something. It's almost like the idea of, like, traveling. Whereas, like, when you travel someplace and then come back, you're looking at it with new eyes. If you travel to, like, a very fantastical land in literature, you come back changed.

Steph:

So you've got the double duty of the ghost story in your head as you come to Hangzhou in a different, like, going to a different place, you've come of, got both of them going on at the same time. Did that feel heavy to you, or did it just feel, like, magical when you first arrived?

Hannah:

I think when I first arrived, it probably was a bit heavy because I had all these expectations, like, I'm going to come here, and I'm going to, like, really understand Hong Jo. I'm going to understand this ghost story. And like, I said, like, that urgency of when you're 22 and you're thinking, like, and I have to figure it out and I have to do it now. Um, and, you know, as time went on, I had a little more breathing room and, like, time to process it. But definitely when I first arrived, I'd be thinking, okay, I need to go to Westlake. And you see, like, what it's like, I have to, like, see what is it? Is it ashore? Is there grass there? I need to know so I can describe it correctly.

Steph:

How long before you got to Hangzhou to when you went to West Lake?

Hannah:

I actually went there within. Or no, I tried to go there within the first week. I say tried because I got really turned around on a bus. I can see that. Yeah.

Steph:

Yeah.

Hannah:

So I got really lost. And I remember walking around the city trying to ask, like, hey, where's Westlake? And people are probably thinking, it's so far. What are you doing? But they were nice. They're like, oh, it's that way. And eventually it was getting late, and there wasn't a subway in Hongzhou yet.

Steph:

Oh, wow.

Hannah:

I know. I've been in Hangzhou for a while.

Steph:

Yeah.

Hannah:

There wasn't a subway yet. And so the only way back was this rickety bus, and I only knew where the terminal station was. I was getting worried.

Steph:

Yeah.

Hannah:

So then the question changed from where is Westlake to where is this terminal? For the bus. Yeah. And eventually this old man, I think, just kind of took pity on me. He walked me all the way to the bus stop. I know it was really nice of him. And actually, like, made sure I got on the bus and everything was fine.

Steph:

Can we go to the point of making a parallel between Madam Whitesnake's journey in the story and your journey in Hangzhou? Can we overlay that at all?

Hannah:

I think so. Or at least that's, like, what I think we as literary people. Like, it's definitely what I want to do. And, like, I like there being some kind of maybe not, like, like, a connection anyway. I think I'm like, I like that. I don't know. I feel there is. And May. I can't. The thing is, I can't tell if it's something I did on purpose because I had arrived with the story in my head or if it's something that just happened. But I feel like the connection I wanted when I first arrived in Hangzhou is probably different from the connection that actually happened. Like, maybe the connection I wanted when I first arrived in Hangzhou was kind of like this. Like, an adventurous, like, legendary thing. I was gonna make a name for myself and do all this stuff. Whereas the connection that happened later was maybe more internal. And this idea of trying to live with major contradictions within yourself.

Steph:

Oh, God, that's so hard.

Hannah:

It is so hard. And in many ways, I feel like I haven't succeeded in that sense yet. But that's what I mean. You grow into this kind of.

Steph:

Yeah, I feel like that patience with ambiguity takes forever, ever. And I think being, like, living overseas kind of puts that in your face for a while. And I think that's why sometimes people go overseas and they leave instantly, is because it's very hard. And it's like, well, I don't have to do this back home, or at least I don't have to do this at such a rapid pace.

Hannah:

Right. Like, I can kind of pace myself a bit more.

Steph:

Yeah.

Hannah:

And that was kind of thing. It was like, both a big transition because I was leaving university and also just being abroad and. Yeah. And definitely I was a very different person back then. I was far more. I think I saw myself as, like, a rugged individualist. Like, I'm gonna do this myself, and I can take care of it. I've got this and all this stuff. And it was also being in Hongzhou was also like a slowly. Like, a slow breaking down of that idea of myself and, like, letting myself be vulnerable and letting people See me being vulnerable and being willing to ask for help when you need it kind of thing.

Steph:

Yeah. Was it a slow change or was there a defining a moment where you were just like, I can't keep acting like this. I have to change?

Hannah:

I would say it's probably a little bit of both. Like, I think it definitely took me a while to kind of break that kind of hard exterior down. Yeah. But I do remember a moment within the first six months, I was in Hangzhou where I just had one of those mornings, you know, where you just can't figure it out and things are just not coming together in a way that it happens, you know, back in America. But it's just really extreme in China where it's like, I can't do anything. And. And then when I walked, I got to school, and I was like, you know, really grumble, grumble, grumble, upset. And I told one of my co workers about it. She just laughed. And it occurred to me, you know, that is kind of funny if you think about it. You know, I've been. I've taken myself so seriously for so long, and I've been like, almost like, I have to be, like, meaningful. Like, I wanted to be adult and serious and meaningful. I realized, actually, this is kind of a silly situation. It is kind of funny. I think once I let myself just see the humor in things, it really broke down a lot of that, you know, I. For sure, for sure, just kind of laugh about it and say, you know, sometimes you just fail and it just happens, and it doesn't mean you're less of a person.

Steph:

And it's almost like living overseas. The more you fail, the quicker you'll adjust.

Hannah:

Exactly. Exactly. I think someone said, like, the best way to learn a language is to just be comfortable losing face. Mm. That is how you'll learn the language.

Steph:

Oh, my God. Speaking of language, how much Chinese did you know before you moved here?

Hannah:

I had studied Chinese for about two years in university, but I would say two years that I'm not in China is about equal to one year in China because you don't have the atmosphere. I did have a good Chinese teacher, though. She. So I had a pretty strong foundation of, like, pinyin and some really, like, good basic Chinese. It was the listening that I did not have, which, how could you if you haven't been in China? But I also. There was a lot of pride, maybe a little arrogance when I first arrived in China, thinking, like, I know Chinese. I'm fine. I've got this. I think this one moment that Kind of made me realize that I needed to maybe tone it down a bit. I. I thought my Chinese was so good, but actually, I had just memorized the order of questions people would ask you. You know, like, there's nothing wrong with that. Right. Like, where are you from? Why are you in China? Like, I was. I had the order down. Yeah. So this one guy was saying something. I was walking on the street, and I thought, like, oh, I know. He's asking me where you're from. And what he was actually saying was, hey, look out. There's like, a crack in the street. And so what he sees is me going, I'm American. It's like tripping and falling on my face.

Steph:

Oh, that's awesome.

Hannah:

I know. I mean, it's not awesome.

Steph:

I'm sorry.

Hannah:

I didn't hurt myself, so it's fine.

Steph:

Yeah. Oh, that's hilarious.

Hannah:

But that's what I mean. Like, looking back, it's funny, and it's fine to laugh at yourself sometimes. And, like, that was when I thought, like, okay, maybe my Chinese is not that great.

Steph:

I saw a guy on Instagram a couple of months ago who had the five questions in T shirt form in Mandarin Chinese in the Hansa characters, and I was just like, heart, how can I not like that?

Hannah:

I know, exactly. Sometimes. Sometimes you just want that sign to be like, here are all the answers you want.

Steph:

There you go.

Hannah:

Yeah.

Steph:

Oh, you're right. I'm sorry. It was the answers, not the questions.

Hannah:

Yeah.

Steph:

So it was like, okay, if you're gonna ask, here you go. Now can we talk about something else? Yeah, exactly like, wow, that's a really funny moment. Oh, my gosh. Do you remember when you got up, were you, like, looking around? Like, did anybody see me? Did you see him? Like, what was the a follow up to that moment?

Hannah:

I think I just, like, scuttled away in shame.

Steph:

I was just like.

Hannah:

I was like, oh, my God, that's so embarrassing, running away. And it's interesting too, because, like, thinking back, I kept. I kept pretty. I kept a lot of journals at the time. And so it was interesting looking back on those journals. I was definitely a lot more insecure back then too, which I think a lot of us can relate to. Right? And so I. So I was way more worried about, like, oh, my God, people are staring at me. What have I done? Like, what's happening? What's wrong with me? Was. Now it's just kind of like, why are you staring? Yeah, you know.

Steph:

Oh, did I just do that?

Hannah:

Oh, God. Or, you know, just Kind of like, okay, whatever. Yeah.

Steph:

So when your mom came to visit in the story. In real life. In the story. In real life, in the story, you mentioned she had ideas of Hong Jo before she came too. And she's like, this escalators. Wait, what. What's happening here? Did you guys sit down and kind of compare what she thought before she came and what you thought before you came? Um, I'm not sure that we did.

Hannah:

And I. I wish that we did. I don't know. Like, like I said at the time, I think I was really concerned about my mom not having, like, a certain idea of China that I was. That I was almost over adjusting for that, or like, I'd almost be like, jockeying too much because I think, like, oh, I don't want her to have this idea of China. And so I think in a way, I may have prevented, like, a really nice conversation about, like, how do you actually feel about China? But.

Steph:

Were you trying to make her feel comfortable that you were living here or.

Hannah:

Yeah, a bit. I think also, I guess, like, I didn't want her to leave China thinking, like, all of China is ancient, or also not thinking like, oh, China is super communist and scary kind of thing. And so, yeah, so I think there was bit of that. But I. I do know that, like, we actually had a pretty interesting visit because although I feel bad that I just didn't really know how to show her around. And so, like, I. She didn't get out. She didn't get as much out of it as I would like her to. But, like, we went to, like, a friend of a friend who lived in, like, the countryside of Yangzhou. So that was a pretty intense experience. Like, we're in a true Chinese countryside. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we spent most of our time in Hangzhou, but I think when we talked about stuff, like, she was curious, like, she knew I'd been working on the story, so we talked a lot about that and she wanted to know about school. Honestly, I'm not sure. We had, like, the deep, like, what do you think about China? Conversation, but we talked more about day to day stuff. And I think at the time I. I just didn't like, realize how probably scary it was for her to have me looking so far away. Because I think in my mind I was just like, yeah, I'm in China, whatever. And like, now that I'm older, I kind of recognize, like, oh, that was probably like, really stressful for my mom. And it was probably really important for her just to see me, like, being Fine. In China.

Steph:

Yeah.

Hannah:

Yeah.

Steph:

Do you have brothers and sisters?

Hannah:

I. Both older brother and older sister.

Steph:

Are they still in the US or.

Hannah:

Yes.

Steph:

Okay, so you were the only one that left and went super far away. Yeah, yeah.

Hannah:

And like, yeah, like, both of my brother and sister, like, they had been abroad. Like, they had traveled abroad. But, like, I'm the only one who lived abroad. So, yeah, like, looking back, I can recognize, like, okay, probably. You know, she said she wanted to spend Christmas with me, but I think really she just wanted to, like, make sure I was doing fine. That's so sweet. It was really sweet. Oh, my gosh.

Steph:

But I get it. When you're first breaking out and you want all this adventure and then somebody comes to chat, check up on you, you're like, I'm fine. I'm gonna show you how fine I am. Here's how great this place is. And it's like, I know, Defensive. I'm kind of thinking of my first time.

Hannah:

Oh, yeah, No, I look, looking back, like, I was definitely a bit defensive. And sometimes I think, like, oh, I kind of wish I could, like, go back and not be that way. But I think of it instead. Like, next time my mom. Right, exactly. Next time my mom comes, like, I will be way more chill and, like, we can just hang out and stuff and it'll be good.

Steph:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Totally.

Hannah:

Oh, look, I've been.

Steph:

I spent the better part of 15 years living in different countries overseas, mostly in Asia, and a friend of mine who lived in Qingdao for what, three, four months before coming to visit me in Shanghai came down and I still did a very curated thing of showing her different parts of Shanghai so she wouldn't just get the idea of. It's just the French Concession, it's just the Bund. It's just these older streets that are very Chinese looking, but are kind of worn down and kind of need some repair. Like, I wanted to make sure that she saw all of these different parts so she could walk away with this whole thing. And I was exhausted.

Hannah:

Yeah.

Steph:

I'm like, but you live in China. Why am I trying to explain China to you?

Hannah:

It's like you have this need. You can't help, but you have this need to show, like, China is diverse. There's so much to it. Yeah, yeah, it's. It can be. And it can be exhausting. And, like, at a certain point, like, people are just gonna see what they see, and that's just what happens.

Steph:

I know, I know. But does that ever completely go away?

Hannah:

I kind doubt it. But, like, now maybe I. I feel like I've gotten a bit more forgiving with myself and also with other people where I don't. I try not to give myself the burden of, like, I have to represent China for other people. It's just like, you know what? There are a lot of ways people can learn about China, like, not just through me. There's tons of, like, if you can't make it to China, because, I mean, it is pretty far away.

Steph:

Yeah.

Hannah:

Like, there are tons of books. There are tons of, like, Chinese people doing interesting things. You know, like, there's a lot of that.

Steph:

For sure, for sure, for sure. Okay, so the Eiffel Tower idea, while you were in Westlake, I jotted down that I was like, end of the expat honeymoon period. Question mark. Was that when the veneer was starting to wear away and you were starting to realize, I'm really here?

Hannah:

You know, it's interesting because, like, it kind of went through stages, I think, like, when I finally did, like, make it to Westlake and, like, wasn't lost, like, I was actually pretty disappointed because, you know, first of all, like, I found out, like, the writer part of me was like, oh, I described it wrong. In my story, there isn't, you know, like, there isn't a bank on the lake. It's like a concrete shore. And, like, if you're writing historically, probably it wasn't a concrete shore. But at the time, I was like, oh, I did it wrong. But, like, there was. Yeah, there was, like, these concrete walkways and, like, a ton of people. And, like, just. It was really not what I expected. And so I felt, definitely, I will be honest, like, when I first landed in Hong Joe, I felt pretty disappointed by, like, how modern it was, but then immediately follow up thought was, of course it's modern. It's 2012. What was I expecting? Yeah. Why was I thinking it was going to be, like, pagodas everywhere? It's not gonna be like, it's. It's 2012. Like, the Olympics have happened in China. Clearly, it's a modern country. Right. But I think the first time the veneer started to wear off, I actually. I was within the first month, actually, for that. I think it was a combination national holiday and mid autumn festival. I was visiting a friend of a friend. Like, a friend's uncle is kind of a complicated thing. But anyway, I went to his home. This is the countryside of Yangzhou person. And they're very nice. We had a good time. But then, like, I was still kind of in adventure Mode, you know, like, I'm in a different place. What an adventure. Yeah. Then like the, the whole thing with Mid Autumn festival is like, you look at the moon and you think about people at home and blah, blah. And like, and you know what I did and I was like, this is, this is fun. But then I started to think, like, I'm here for a while because I had signed like a nine month contract. Oh, wow. I'm actually going to be in China for a while.

Steph:

Oh.

Hannah:

And there was kind of this moment where I thought, what am I doing? And like, I hadn't prepared. Done a lot of class preparation during that break. And so it was also quickly followed by like some frustrating classes where I couldn't it. Right. And so it's kind of like, what am I doing here? And thinking like, and like thinking of my friends back in America, like, oh, they're going to be like starting their careers and like, you, you can't help but compare yourself to like every other person in the world.

Steph:

Yeah.

Hannah:

Yeah.

Steph:

Well, it's funny that you mentioned that because I had also written down live out the dream as long as you can. Like your friend saying that to you. Did you feel that was like pressure for you to like, show them how wonderful this, this is, this is this experience that you're having overseas?

Hannah:

Absolutely. I mean, they definitely, they didn't mean anything bad about it, but for sure I would. I felt kind of like, oh, wow. So I really need to make like, treasure this and make it worth it because if. Because it's gonna stop someday. And like, as soon as I'm out of China, life is gonna be hard and I have to. And like, when I go back, I'm gonna just like completely fail and everyone's gonna be like, waiting for that day to happen because like, I had this, this grand venture and like, of course it's gonna end. And like, see, we told you so back in America. It's hard, all this. I know.

Steph:

That's a lot.

Hannah:

Yeah, I know, I know. And like, where did that come from? Part of it was just like my own anxiety. Part of it too is like I. There, there was somebody like, at one point who said, who kind of said like, I, like a really horrible part of me, like, because I've been doing a lot of exciting stuff. I've been traveling. It's like a horrible part of me can't wait until like you come back and fail for a little bit.

Steph:

Somebody said that to you?

Hannah:

Wrote it in an email? Yeah. Oh, my God. And yeah, it kind of Kind of stuck with me, but.

Steph:

Whoa.

Hannah:

But, like, I already had, like, a lot of anxiety about that then, like, oh, and people saying, like. And kind of this idea between expats, especially if you're teaching English, where it's like, you're not avoiding reality, you're just delaying it.

Steph:

Yeah.

Hannah:

This kind of idea, like, someday the ball is going to drop and, like, life's gonna get hard for you, and then you're living out of fantasy right now. Oh.

Steph:

As if expat life is so easy. Maybe some of these are true. But also the thing of you can't run from yourself and all that kind of stuff. I'm like, you. I ran towards something interesting. I wanted to see and experience different things. I didn't run from something. I didn't think. I wouldn't come with me. Like, everybody's like, you can't outrun yourself. And I'm like, ah, what is all this stuff?

Hannah:

Right. Like, I definitely wasn't trying to outrun myself. I don't think I went to China to find myself either. It was just one of those things where, like, my myself kind of happened, like, wherever I went. Yeah, of course. Like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna figure out myself kind of no matter where I am in the world.

Steph:

Exactly.

Hannah:

And, like, it's funny because I did tell my. I did tell my parents, like, I could make it work in America, and they were like, nah, you would have hated it. They're just like, nah, we're happy you went abroad. Like, it's. It was clearly the right decision for you.

Steph:

You probably would have, but that doesn't.

Hannah:

Right. It would just have been very different. They're saying, like, we're not doubting your capacity to be able to do this. We're just saying, like, this was clearly a good decision for you to go to China.

Steph:

Right, Right, right, right. That you obviously flourished once you were here, that kind of thing. But you probably would have been fine in both situations.

Hannah:

Right, right, right.

Steph:

So what do you think of the ideas that you had about Hangzhou before you got here? What do you think of those ideas now?

Hannah:

Sort of my ideas of. Of Hangzhou definitely steeped in a lot, I think, probably a lot of, I guess, maybe prejudices about, like, what China would be like. Like, you think of, like, Orientalism and those ideas. Like, I was definitely coming from, like, some of those ideas of, like, this kind of exotic place far away and, like, what a different culture and, like, the gods and the ghosts idea, the mystical culture. So part of that was definitely, like, I will not deny that part of it was. It's definitely that. But also, I was the kind of person that just. I would find the weird part or the unusual kind of exotic part of pretty much anywhere I would go. I kind of seek that stuff out. But I think my ideas of Hangzhou, I definitely saw it as, like, I was picturing it being way more ancient and, like, not such a big city. And, you know, even though I had Chinese friends at Luther who were telling me, like, oh, it's a pretty big city. And, like, they were looking at the map like, oh, you actually live pretty far away from the lake. And so they were telling me these facts, and I was still like, that's nice. I'm still imagining, like, this, you know, really romanticizing idea of China.

Steph:

My first place that I lived in overseas was Taiwan, and I saw tropical island because I looked at weather more than I did anything else. And it was 2003, so there wasn't as much online about it as there is now. But I was just envisioning island. Very casual clothing, very relaxed atmosphere, very, very chilled culture, very empty cities. You know, most people are just kind of doing stuff slowly.

Hannah:

Not at all.

Steph:

And I was in a city. I wasn't down in Kanding, or I wasn't over on the. On the. Not the west coast, the east coast, which is the mirror image of California. No, no, no, no, no. I was in Tainan, which is not Taipei, but it's still a major city. Ish. It was definitely a concrete jungle. And so I got there and just went, where's the casual clothing? Where are people relaxed and friendly?

Hannah:

Like, what?

Steph:

I mean, they were friendly enough for a city, but I was just like, what?

Hannah:

Yeah.

Steph:

So, I mean, it's. It's funny what we envision, despite facts being available.

Hannah:

Yeah, I think. I think a lot of the ideas I had about Hangzhou were just ideas I had about China in general. Like, I kind of. I kind of had this hybrid idea who. It's going to be really ancient. I think this idea is, like, very similar to, like, probably what a lot of Americans think, where it's, like, on the one hand, you kind of expect it to be, like, very traditional and exotic. And on the other hand, you're expecting, like, ooh, Big Brother is everywhere. And, like, yeah, it's gonna be super, like, draconic and, like, rules and rules. No, like, there's, like, one of the first things I saw was this guy smoking right under a. No smoking. So I saw, like, there were, like, police officers. I'm thinking like, oh, my God. And then I see someone, like, walking toward him like, sorry, I'm lost. Can you tell me how to get. And he was like, well, sure. Just go down this street. Super nice cop. Just like, yeah, go here and here and here. Good luck. Have a nice day, you know.

Steph:

Oh, my gosh.

Hannah:

Yeah.

Steph:

It's so funny. It's so much more nuanced here than what gets portrayed in the media.

Hannah:

Yeah. And, like, same for sure. Goes for America, especially these days. Yeah. It's more nuanced than that, I promise.

Steph:

I don't know if it is anymore. It was when I used to tell my students, now, don't believe everything. All of that's there, but there's a lot more other stuff, too. And I feel like it's the same living in China and talking to Americans about China. It's like, you guys would actually like each other if you just stopped it with the extreme. Yeah. Extreme sharing, like, it just.

Hannah:

Right, right. But I mean, so, like it. That's kind of. The longer I've been in China, the more I've wanted to try to help China represent itself, which is actually why I was excited to work for a place like Six Tone. I could, like, help Chinese writers write about China. Yeah. Which is, like, super exciting. And, you know, I've had people tell me, like, oh, you should work for the government, like, the American government. This is, like, well before. Yeah. Stuff.

Steph:

Sure, sure.

Hannah:

But, like. But it's one of those things where I was like, you know, actually, I'm not super interested in representing America. I'm more interested in, like, improving understanding of China, I think.

Steph:

Yeah, yeah, I can see that. And that's a really good publication. I know I mentioned Six Tone quite a bit on this, and actually in the changing scripts, like, Chinese language podcast that I do, I interviewed Lucy from there. I'm one of the. The social media folks over at Six Town. But, yeah, it's a really, really great organization. Yay. But part of that view that we both kind of had of China, I think is something that China kind of projects also to the world, whether within the Confucian Institutes, that they have the language classes with the culture heavily as a component of or via other ways that they try to massage medium, whatnot. I think it's part of what they put out there too, isn't it? Yeah.

Hannah:

I mean, actually, it's interesting. I just went to a lecture last night, and the guy was talking about representations of China in music and how, like, there was this song. I think it's Was it Molihua or something like that? Where. I think it was actually originally from a Western interpretation of China. And then, like, China kind of picked up the song, saying, like, this is what Westerners are used to, so this is kind of our song now. And he was saying, this is flawed. We should be teaching them, like, songs that actually represent our culture. And we shouldn't choose songs based off of, like, what a Western palette would enjoy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, ooh. Or like, I don't. Again, I don't know the specific name of the song in those details because it's already kind of foggy from last night, but there was a song. I think there is kind of this, like, China is trying to be more present in the world. Like, culturally present. I mean, but, like, it definitely. When you look at tourism videos of China, it still does emphasize, like, ancient tea culture and silk and all that stuff.

Steph:

Yeah.

Hannah:

And that is. It's definitely a part of China, but it's just a part. Exactly.

Steph:

Yeah. There's a lot more that exists now that really isn't in popular media overseas. Overseas being the other 189 countries.

Hannah:

Right. It's like you're in China longer than the more you start thinking in terms of like. Like Chinese and foreign. I know.

Steph:

And it's like, wait, foreign is a huge part of the world. I think I even. I had an argument with a local friend last week where I was like, no, China is physically bigger than the US and he's like, you how can you think this? Like. No, it's true, it's true, it's true. And of course, we're like, breaking out the cell phones. And of course. No, not really. Maybe like this much, depending on what you include in both quote unquote countries. Right. But basically, land mass wise, we're about the same. But population wise.

Hannah:

Yeah.

Steph:

Boom.

Hannah:

Right, right, right. Exactly.

Steph:

Massively different. But for some reason, it just. In my mind, because the cultural differences in China seem so much more vast to me than in the U.S. like, I'm used to the differences in the U.S. i'm not used to the differences here. So it just. It feels like it's a much bigger place.

Hannah:

Absolutely. I mean, you compare one of the. Have many minorities, like in Yunnan to, like, Shanghai person. It's just like, radically different.

Steph:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or even Shanghai's down to, like, somewhere even close, like somebody from Suzhou or somebody from Hangzhou.

Hannah:

Yeah, yeah.

Steph:

Like, there's just such a difference just within such a small area. You mentioned at one point there was peeled Away was a phrase that you used in the story.

Hannah:

Oh, the snakeskin. Yes. Yeah.

Steph:

And I was like, okay, okay, okay. What parts of you were peeled away? I think you already partially answered this, but let's keep going.

Hannah:

Okay, sure, sure, sure. I think I had, like, this idea of myself, just this, maybe a grander idea of, like, who I am and, like, what I am capable of and this much more exaggerated version. And in many ways, I think about my writing too, where I was trying to be a little more solemn and, like, careful w writer. And I think, like, parts that were peeling away was when I just started more recognizing, like, instead of posturing to try and be a certain way or like, you know, teaching these classes and trying to be like, I'm an adult, even though I'm almost the same age as you, you know, it's a big, strange turnaround. Yeah. I think probably this idea of, you know, I have, like, I have a big destiny and I have, like, big shoes to fill and, like, I have to, like, hurry up to fill them kind of thing. This kind of idea where, like, I can do great things, but it's going to come and go in spurts kind of thing. Like, it's going to be more of a journey. And I think some of the peeling away was.

Steph:

I guess, I don't really know.

Hannah:

It's kind of a hard one to think about because I know that I changed a lot. And I think maybe, like, there's definitely, like, I'd mentioned maybe a little bit of arrogance that also was peeled away a bit. And like, even like this peeling away of the skin also had, like, thicker skin where I could like, handle a little more criticism and not take. Go off the rails making myself sound insane when I was 22. But, you know, everything is so much more intense.

Steph:

It's so extreme then.

Hannah:

Yeah, yeah, it's just, like, way more intense.

Steph:

So I think by kind of letting down your guard, you were. And being more vulnerable, you were actually stronger than when you were when you first got here.

Hannah:

Yeah, I think so. Like, when I kind of let myself be imperfect or I would kind of let myself make mistakes and not feel like I had to, like, turn it into, like, poeticize it or turn it into some kind of, like. But it's good because. And I would do that a lot. I. Something I didn't like in China, you know, I would say, people do this, but it's good because. Or, like, I made this mistake, but it's good because. And I just kind of learned, like, I think one of the first mantras I had in China was just like, work with the failure. I was just like, you're gonna stumble, you're gonna make a mistake. But instead of just, you know, getting hung up on it, like, turn it into something. And eventually that kind of shifted from just like trying to always turn into a positive thing, just to kind of accept it for what it is and turn it into just something.

Steph:

Yeah.

Hannah:

So like, I remember a friend of mine was saying, you know, Hannah, like you're, you're definitely like, you know, I like your writing, but I think you like. Something I always remember about you is that you're funny. Like, I think back to things you say in class and like, you're funny. I still laugh, I think about it. And I had never seen myself as a funny person up until then. I'd always.

Steph:

Really?

Hannah:

Yeah, I'd always, up until then I'd always just like seen myself as like kind of an intense, serious person, only to be like, people be like, oh, you're actually pretty funny. I was like, oh, I guess you are.

Steph:

And this piece was funny. There were moments when I was giggling when I was reading it and there were moments when I was listening to you that I was giggling too. And I was like, oh, I forgot about that part. That is funny.

Hannah:

Which is so funny because even now writing that, I wasn't thinking like, oh, this is gonna be funny. I was kind of writing it and.

Steph:

Thinking like, funny because there were things that you like, brought together, things that you connected that didn't seem like they were coming, sort of surprisingly connected. And it's like, oh, yeah, that doesn't make sense.

Hannah:

That is.

Steph:

It was funny because it was just like, oh, that came out of the blue and sort of like a swirly gonna snake. I had to bring that in there one more time.

Hannah:

We gotta leave that snake in there.

Steph:

What do you think of this story now?

Hannah:

Well, I do feel good about it in general. Just as like a piece, like, as a piece that came together. And a lot of that was because of like the editorial help I had. Because sometimes you, you create something and you think to yourself, God, there's something wrong about it, but I don't know what it is. I can't see it. Sometimes, like, you need someone whose taste you trust, look and say, oh, well, you just think, do this and this, and you go, oh my God, you're right, that's what it needed. But like, you know, looking back on my 22, 23 year old self, you know, it's funny because I sometimes can be Very hard on my past self. And I did have a friend, actually a former professor of mine, like kind of call me out on that. She's like, you know, the past version of yourself is not like a worse version of yourself. You know, it's not like you're. It's not like you are constantly improving, you know, like you're. The past version of yourself is just a different version of yourself and. Wise words. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so like looking back on this piece, you know, there are actually some things about that 2223 year old version of myself that I get kind of nostalgic about in a way. Like I'll think, wow, like I was, I was really intense. But sometimes intensity is, can be kind of a good thing. Like you're. Or like the kind of the urgency to like see and experience as much of China as possible. Like I still like to experience China, but it's definitely like, like calmed a bit since then. But so in some ways I can get a bit nostalgic. And I remember that first year I didn't have a smartphone. I just had like this brick Nokia phone. And so I was really like, not super connected. That kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah. Like it was on the brink. Like a lot of people are starting to get smartphones, but it wasn't quite like nowadays in China you have to have a smart.

Steph:

Sure.

Hannah:

But so I was really disconnected from like technology and I had like. And I would write a lot and I would do a lot of journaling and I wrote in my blog a lot. And part of that was because I just, I didn't know a lot of people. So I like, a lot of my free time would just go toward that. But at times I think like, yeah, but that wasn't so bad, was it? Like, you know, I think that's actually like pretty good. On the other hand, looking back, I can. I definitely have a different perspective of myself. Like, like now of course I can see that maybe I was being a bit defensive like when people would talk to me about China. Or maybe I was being unreasonable with myself about expectations and like the kind of person I wanted to be. And maybe it is okay that, you know, things didn't become legendary like I hoped they would because like, well, that'd be kind of crazy anyway if it just like became this grand thing right away. But in a way, like it did become grand, just in a way I didn't expect.

Steph:

What way did it become grand?

Hannah:

Well, like on a more literal like adventure level, I have done a lot of travel In China. And so in that sense, it was kind of like legendary, like an adventure. But on the other hand, just like day to day, like, getting by on my own and like meeting these interesting people and like daily side quests kind of thing, in a way. Or you're just like, I met this person and then we got noodles, da, da, da. What happened next? You know, that kind of stuff. And there would be. And just like, I guess, like, you think of the typical. I'm gonna biff this word. Bildungsgrohman. Okay. Well, it's like, it's the term for like a coming of age book or like a story. Like the protagonist growing up. Like, I think of Jane Eyre like, from the beginning.

Steph:

Gotcha.

Hannah:

But like, in a sense, it was very much like that. Like, I. I'm actually looking at settling in Shanghai now. And so it is kind of like closing off that period of Hangzhou. And in many ways it definitely feels like the right time to do that. Like, I made a recent trip to Hangzhou and it was the first time I went back to Hangzhou and didn't feel like I was going home. It felt like I was visiting Hangzhou.

Steph:

Yeah, yeah.

Hannah:

Whereas coming back to Shanghai, I was like, yeah, now I'm coming home. Wow. Yeah. And it happened way quicker than I thought it would. I thought it would.

Steph:

That's quick. How many months have you been up here?

Hannah:

Yeah, only, like two months.

Steph:

Two months?

Hannah:

Yeah. Yeah. But it already. It already kind of. Because it was kind of the next level that I was ready for. Like. But looking back at my Hong Jo time, it does feel, you know, it feels good. Like, I accomplished the things I wanted to, but not even that. Like, it took me in directions I didn't expect it to.

Steph:

And that is the adventure, right?

Hannah:

Exactly. That's the adventure. And like. But when I was 22, that probably wouldn't have been the adventure I expected, you know?

Steph:

Well, and I think what's really, really healthy and encouraging about what you did with your former self is that you didn't take all those characteristics of the things that might have been too extreme at 22, which. Who isn't? You didn't go, oh, I don't want those characteristics at all. You kind of just folded them into yourself and they're a part of you, and they don't have to be the only part of you. And they. But they're. They're still there.

Hannah:

Right. Like, I know if I had written this story when I was like, even 23, 24, I definitely probably would have Written in a more biased way where I would have wanted to come off as, like, a perfect hero or, you know, the kind of per. Or, like, I've been perfect. But, like, you know, like, for example, the exchange my mom and I had, I probably would have tried to frame it. Like, you know, you blew her mind. Like, I blew her mind. Like, I understand China so much. She does. Whereas now I know that partially what, like, our conversations. He was also trying to help me feel good about where I was and, like, make sure, like. Like, I'm doing fine. Yeah.

Steph:

You mentioned Julie being a really guiding force in the editing of this piece. What was the biggest suggestion that you think brought it out to be the strong piece that it is?

Hannah:

Well, the very original draft that I had, I had a lot more factual information about Hong Jo. Like, I had it where there'd be a section about me and then, like, interspersed with, like, here's some factual stuff about Hong Jo. And so. So Julie was the one to go in and say, like, you know, I don't think you need that factual stuff. I think it's actually kind of taking away from your piece. And she's like, I actually see a really beautiful story of, like, the disillusionment or, like, coming of age, like, this idea of, like, loss of innocence with youth. And she was like, I feel like that would make a really great story, and I would suggest you go that direction. So she's kind of advice about how to do that. And I thought that was, like, really great advice to get well.

Steph:

Okay, so wait, go back. So what it was before was those factual bits, and what were. What was the narrative narrative then?

Hannah:

Well, the narrative I just had kind of, like, in a way, it was almost like three separate adventures. Like, I think one of them was, like, before going to Hangzhou, and one of them. One of them was, like, seeing the Snakes adventure. And one of them was, like, the Leifang Pagoda adventure.

Steph:

Okay.

Hannah:

And then in between were, like, factual information about Hangzhou. And, like. And definitely it's a much stronger story now. It's much more cohesive. And I think it. I don't know it definitely. I look back, I read it now and think, like, yeah, I'm happy with how this turned out. And, like, I don't know. She was really great to work with because she, like, she didn't say, like, you have to do this. She was just like, no, I think this will be a good direction to go. And here's what I would suggest. Like, go try. Like, go try it.

Steph:

Oh, that's Amazing that it sounds like a very different. Very different. Two different. Very different creatures.

Hannah:

Yeah. Yeah. Very different stories. But it was. She mentioned this loss of innocence, and I didn't even see that in my story, you know? Really? I didn't know. Not at all. I was writing this thinking, like, oh, yeah, I'm just trying to, like, figure out this story, the white snake, you know, Like, I'm just trying to figure this story out and, like, this connection to my life. And, like, for whatever reason. And that's what I mean. Sometimes you need, like, someone else to look at it. Because I was thinking, like, loss of innocence, and then I thought, like, oh, I see it now.

Steph:

It's so nice to have other eyes on your. Oh, when your people are reading your writing like that.

Hannah:

I know. And now you think, like, how could you not see that?

Steph:

Right. My worst culture shock is when I went to Taiwan and I was blogging like crazy, and I was just hitting wall after wall after wall of. I don't even know what. It's not like I was totally unfamiliar with Chinese culture, but I just, for some reason, had just could not handle the difference between what I thought should exist in the world and what was right in front of me. And I was just blogging a ton, and a local actually commented on one of them, and they're like, you're so articulate. It must be really frustrating for you not to be able to function here. And I went, oh.

Hannah:

Oh.

Steph:

I think you've hit on a huge part of my frustration.

Hannah:

Yeah.

Steph:

Oh, shit.

Hannah:

Yeah.

Steph:

Maybe it's not only the culture, because there's differences everywhere, right? I'm like, oh. Maybe that's because it was the biggest linguistic difference. I couldn't read anything. Unlike in most of Shanghai that I've experienced, where you've got the Pinyin on the street signs, Tainan would switch between wadegiles and pinyin and just tons of characters. So there'd be times when I'm riding around on my scooter and I know what street I'm on, even if it switches between wadegiles and pinion. I got used to the differences, so I still knew I was on the same street, but when it switched to just characters, I was like, where am I?

Hannah:

Oh, God.

Steph:

And I never felt so, like, unfunctional before. And I was like, oh, my God. As soon as I read that comment, I went, oh, that's probably a huge part of what I'm dealing with right now. But I didn't see that.

Hannah:

It's interesting. Yeah. Because, like, I Like I said, I. I will never really have that experience with China because, like, when I first came, I did already have those two years of Chinese. But I did experience something similar to that when I first started my master's program because, like, I was the only foreigner in my class. And it was one of those things where I would read these novels, a lot of thoughts and a lot of things I'd want to say, but I just didn't know how to say them. And I would get really frustrated. But, like, luckily my professors were like, really good about it, especially this one professor where we were looking at, like, 19th century European novels and which, you know, try to imagine talking about Anna Karenina. Chinese is just. Just real hard. It's so hard.

Steph:

And like.

Hannah:

And some of my contributions to class would be as, like, rudimentary as, like, this character does this, but then in this scene, he does this, which means he is a very complicated, maybe not good person. And like, luckily that professor could kind of like, he kind of. He gave me benefit of the doubt, basically. He's like, it's clearly a linguistic thing. Like, you're pointing this out. It means you recognized it, but you just don't know how to say it.

Steph:

Oh, my God, that must have been so hard.

Hannah:

Yeah. And actually I had a friend too, kind of similar to that commentator on your blog who said, like, wow, especially for someone who likes to write poetry and stuff, that must be really frustrating to not express yourself so easily. Yeah.

Steph:

To being playful with words and descriptive and very specific and nuanced to what is the most basic way. How do I get this out at all? Yeah, that's a really frustrating experience.

Hannah:

Yeah.

Steph:

The story was from 2012 and you moved down to Hangzhou and we did Masters. And then you wrote this piece in 2016 while you were still in Hangzhou.

Hannah:

Yeah, actually my timeline is like, I was English teacher for two and a half years and that was like in a lump with when I first moved to China. And then I left that little bit and then I was doing my master's for, like, I still have yet to do my defense as we record this, but, like, it's like, I'm technically still doing the Master's, but, like, that's kind of the second half of Hangzhou time. Times, so of Hongjou times.

Steph:

And the master's was completely in Chinese, right?

Hannah:

Yes. Yes.

Steph:

Legendary, I think, is a good word to describe your experience in China. That's amazing. Okay, so you went, and now you're working for Six Tone. And what do you see as Your future in Shanghai. Is there anything big, any big goals on the horizon?

Hannah:

You know, it's. It's. It's interesting because, like, I remember when I was younger, I made this kind of bucket list with one of my friends, and top of my bucket list was go to China. And then the next one was write something I'm proud of. And then, like. And then, like, further down the. Further down the list was like, you know, fall in love and get married and all that.

Steph:

Oh, those things.

Hannah:

Oh, those things. Right. And so it's funny because with all the travel I've done, like, I feel like, wow, okay. I've really kind of of done that, and it was so great. But I do feel kind of satisfied about that. Like, I do. I'm kind of ready to focus more on, like, my career and being more part of, like, a literary community and doing more reading and writing and translating and that kind of stuff. So I'm actually. I see my future in Shanghai being maybe more professionally driven. Still having fun, for sure. And, like, probably still travel in there, but, like, definitely leaning more towards, like, the professional, artistic side of Shanghai.

Steph:

Yeah.

Hannah:

And I've already been, like, in a lot of these groups, so it's already pretty exciting.

Steph:

Yay. There's so much stuff happening in Shanghai in that arena. It's just. It's.

Hannah:

Yeah. Pretty amazing.

Steph:

My next Chinese language test is in December, and so I am ignoring every single notification on things that are happening. And it's really crazy. It's annoying me.

Hannah:

Yeah. There's so much happening. I was originally going to do my Chinese, like, HSK test, like, in December, January. But then, like, my Chinese tutor was like, that's pretty soon. And he's like, I think you should focus on graduating first. And then we can. He's like, and then we can, like, look at this.

Steph:

For sure, for sure, for sure. For me, it's like the end cap of just a giant vocabulary dump. And I'm not. I will not be ready at all. But it's. It's sort of like an end cap. And then I'll go back and redo everything. It's like layers. I need to do this in layers because. Oh, yeah.

Hannah:

Ow. Ow.

Steph:

Okay, two more questions. One is actually from the gentleman that recommended that I read that story.

Hannah:

And I have.

Steph:

I'm searching for my phone, not because I'm reading messages while we're talking, but because he actually left part of it on my phone yesterday. I told him I was talking to you today about this. His name is Shing, and he's actually, was he in episode one? I believe he was. The first interview that I did for this podcast, he did his bachelor's in Scotland and when I met him was about a week before he went back to visit for the first time since he left. So there had been like, I think a 10 year difference between when he was there as a student and when he went back and the combination of him going back to that place that he used to write a lot and he loved writing and then talking about it during the interview and he started to think, where did that part of me go? And he started to write since his trip to Scotland. And so his. His creative side has kind of flourished again. He's writing quite a bit and trying to shape it into a career. And he's actually had a few things that are going to be published soon and all this kind of stuff. And so his question is connected to this, which is why the long, heady intro to this question here it is. So part of it is written and part of it is vocal. So we'll see if this comes across in the thingy. So the question is, I think, and this is from Shing, not from me. I think I'm most curious about what she's doing now in terms of her career. She's still writing. Is she pursuing a writing career? If so, is her writing able to support herself financially and. Hold on, there's a second part to that.

Hannah:

I'm asking this question, these questions because of my I want to pursue writing career and then I want to see like, how other people are doing.

Steph:

So I think we already answered part of that, but is there any part that we haven't answered since that one?

Hannah:

Okay, well, I definitely am still doing writing, I will say, like recently with like thesis stuff and all kinds of other stuff. I have not done as much recently as I would like, but kind of out of necessity, I do want to keep writing. I do want to pursue some kind of writing career. But I definitely still feel like I don't really know what I'm doing in terms of that. And so it's also part of the goal of being in Shanghai is to be in a more professional setting where I can kind of learn from the people around me. That's kind of step one in my scheme, if you want to call it that. Sure, sure. Just like being in a position where I can learn from people who, if they don't know what they're doing, they at least like kind of have an idea of the world in a way. Also just like Writing regularly. And I think the community is a big thing for me. Like, even in Hangzhou, my friend and I started up a poetry group and a writing group because we just, like, really crave that community and, like, wanted that support. As of right now. Does writing support your career? No, it does not support my life, and it would be wonderful if I could get to a stage where that would happen. But I also recognize is it's kind of difficult, kind of. My immediate goal anyway is to just like, you know, work, work in job I can support myself, but also a job that I can kind of leave behind, like, once I clock out.

Steph:

Right.

Hannah:

So I can have that evening time to myself or like morning time to myself or whatever. And current position.

Steph:

Are you just editing what other people write, or are you also writing and contributing in that way?

Hannah:

I'm mostly editing what other people write, but I did actually write a piece for them about ghost stories that I mentioned before. So it is open, like, if I want to write something, but mostly I'm editing. I do kind of want to get into translation because it combines the writing and the editing, but not in a way that I think would kill the creative writing.

Steph:

Right, right.

Hannah:

Because I think I discovered that if I were to have a job that were to write full time, I think that would kind of kill it for me. Yeah. So I don't really know. That's actually something I'm still trying to figure out. And I think everybody has, like, a different answer to that. I guess my plan is as long as I'm in a community and I'm constantly trying to create new things and, like, put them places, that's my biggest challenge is, like, not just to create a thing, but then to, like, put it somewhere and not just say, well, I'm done now. I guess.

Steph:

No, it has to live somewhere.

Hannah:

Right. But it's hard. But that's the thing. Like, people say that, but it's like, like, how do you do that? And that's kind of why I need, like, a community of people to be like. Or even people who know of a person who's asking for papers or something. Like that kind of stuff.

Steph:

Right.

Hannah:

So part of it is, like, actually creating the thing, but, like, being in a position where I can do something with the thing.

Steph:

Yeah. The creative process is so crazy. The difference between it coming out of you and it existing in the world and interacting with other people that have similar ideas or that want to learn from it or that, whatever. I mean, there's a. Such a huge divide between the two. Sometimes but it's like getting it to be experienced.

Hannah:

And so for your friend, you know, I. Like I said, it's different for everyone, but I am glad that he's like, gotten back to writing because sometimes, like when we get busy, we forget to. We forget to do that for ourselves. Like, even. Even if you don't have plans to be a professional writer, like, you still need some kind of reflection time and writing is one of many wonderful ways to do that. But I. Yeah, I guess, like, I don't have any concrete advice except to just like, keep creating things and like, finding places to put it. This has been exciting to have this essay because I've actually never had the experience of someone reading something I've written and like contacting me and saying, like, wow, this really spoke to me. And like, I've written things all over and I'm thinking, oh my God, really? So I've actually never had that experience, really. Or like I've. Or at least not that I'm aware of. Like, I've written blog entries and I've had people follow and read, but that's like, different. It's kind of like, you know.

Steph:

Yeah, yeah.

Hannah:

And also I'm writing about travel, so for all I know they're just kind of like, oh, yeah, that does sound cool. But so it is, it is exciting. And like something else that Julie told me is like, yeah, just like, even if you just like self publish a little collection of poetry, it'll mean the world to have like somebody like take out their little 50 kuai bill or whatever and just like read it and treasure it. That's just such an amazing feeling.

Steph:

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so what story or character is super present in your life today? Or characters or stories? I don't mean to singularize it. Singularize a word.

Hannah:

That was fun. I said, well, I guess there are some characters in my own creation kind of lurking in the shadows. I have yet to do anything with them. So, like. But I have like those kind of characters lurking around. But funny enough, all these years have passed, I'm still interested in Chinese ghost stories. Like, it hasn't really.

Steph:

With good reason.

Hannah:

Stories are so cool, especially Chinese girls. They are legitimately very cool. So, like, I've been. I've had kind of some of those stories in mind because some of them are just really quirky, you know, like, there are some that have a legitimately terrifying ghost, but then there are some where it's like, like this ghost is infused with these kind of leaves. If you steep it in tea and drink It. You'll die and be barred from reincarnation. It's like, what. Oh, where'd that even come from? Like, how did you even think of that? Or, like, one of my favorites is. There's, like, this. It's called the Tiger Guest, and it was Luis Borges, like, one of his favorite stories from his collection. Like, go figure. And it's like, this ti. Like, this man who's actually, like, a tiger in disguise, who's just like. You know, he has this whole thing. I'm gonna go to do a poetry reading with all my friends. He's joining them. They're like, we're gonna do a competition to see who can do the best poetry. And he's like, I know. Like, if someone reads a bad poem, we kill him. And they're just like, nah, let's just take a drink. Okay? And he's like, fine, if you insist. And so they're going around the circle, and he's getting angry because they're reading just really awful poetry. He's just like, this tiger guy's getting so mad until eventually he just cannot stand it. And, like, they can tell he's getting mad, so start reading, like, really bad poetry. Yeah. And then he just, like, transforms into a tiger and, like, murders a bunch of them.

Steph:

Oh, my God.

Hannah:

And, like, traps them, and they become, like, his slaves in, like, the afterworld. Like, the only way they can not be slaves is until he, like, kills the next poet. And I'm like, what the hell? Awesome. But I. I love it. And it's like. I think what's so cool about these stories is there's just, like. Like, I don't know, just, like, the situations and, like, we would never think of, you know. Oh, yeah. This, like, ghost killed people because of bad poetry, you know, like. But I love that.

Steph:

But it makes sense.

Hannah:

But it makes sense. And, like, So, I mean, I have a lot of those stories in mind. And then, like, I guess, like, a lot of my. Some of my own characters, like, I said that I have yet to do stuff with.

Steph:

And you could translate a bunch of Chinese ghost stories into a tiny collection.

Hannah:

I could do that. I would. There definitely have been translations of these stories, but there is a Wade Giles translation, but he's, like, super Victorian about it where there's, like, boring. Yeah, there's, like, some pretty, like, salacious details, and you would just, like, not include them or, like, kind of make them nice and tidy. And it was like, okay, that's a bit biased. And I mean, I've been reading on my own too, I guess. Recently my focus has been more on like the thesis and like the. Sure. Like the poetry and translation of the poetry and all this stuff. But yeah, I did, I did kind of treat myself recently and I read one of my favorite authors is Neil Gaiman and so I, I read Neverwhere recently and that was just such a lovely treat. And so I was thinking about like. So for a while I was walking around Shanghai and trying to think of like, what would be the secret spirit world of Shanghai and like that kind of stuff. And so I was kind of imagining like, like, ooh. So it's kind of funny thinking about that because although I like to think I'm so different from my 22 year old self, I definitely still, I've definitely gotten more removed from like the, you know, everything is fantastical, but it's still there just from being a creative person. Right? Like, yeah, yeah, we can cross the street without, you know, being crazy about it. But I can definitely still think like, ooh, that shadow looks pretty interesting. What if it was this? Or what if it was like that? Ooh.

Steph:

Oh, that's so cool. Yeah, like, I'm thinking near the Bund, some of the older neighborhoods around there. At least right now there's still a.

Hannah:

Lot of really old buildings still kind.

Steph:

Of around that area.

Hannah:

Yeah, so I was thinking about that a lot after everywhere and. And then there's like this bun sightseeing tunnel where it has this like.

Steph:

Oh, yeah.

Hannah:

And I. The thing is, there's a part of me that does kind of like garish, tacky things. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we've talked about this before. Yeah, but definitely.

Steph:

And I'm on that page.

Hannah:

So. I mean, there's this. You're riding this tunnel and there's these like neon lights and there's these voices like saying almost kind of like a scientific, like they're teaching you kind of factual way, like protozoa and like in Chinese, English. But in the end it bizarrely starts saying heaven and hell. Heaven and hell. And just like, whoa.

Steph:

I haven't actually been on this. I've just seen pictures.

Hannah:

So I guess, yeah, it's pretty wild. Like it's very short, but it's also pretty wild.

Steph:

Huh.

Hannah:

So, yeah, just like stuff like that. Like I kind of, like I said, I do seek out kind of the weird stuff in any place. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I think back to like. You went to Japan. Like when I went to Osaka, I very specifically sought out kind of the quirkier things There, like, nah, Osaka's pretty different from Kyoto. I'm gonna make sure of it that in my memories they are very different places. So like I went to the noodle museum in Osaka.

Steph:

When you mentioned this before about liking these kinds of places, I was like, oh, you've probably already heard of Atlas Obscura.

Hannah:

And you said like, I've written for Atlas.

Steph:

And I came over and told my husband, he's like, she did what?

Hannah:

Yeah, like I actually wrote for a couple places all in China. Cause I was like at the time, like, I think this is back in like 2014. Yeah, I was just like, wow, their China section sucks. They need more China. And I was like, there's some pretty weird stuff in China.

Steph:

Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, that's awesome. Oh, listeners, if you don't know, Elvis Obscura has, as you can guess from the name, sort of obscure, very fun, kitschy places in different parts of the world. Is there any place they don't cover?

Hannah:

I don't know. I mean I, I haven't really checked in detail. I would imagine like maybe places with less people are less covered.

Steph:

Yeah, maybe.

Hannah:

But for all, there's probably still an entry for Antarctica, you know.

Steph:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you can, you can search by location. It's some really, really cool stuff in there. Final thoughts on this piece. Your experience, your first year in China. Looking back, is there anything cheesy you'd like to say to your first year in China self to end the therapy session?

Hannah:

Sure, I guess. Like when I think back to myself, you know, there was kind of like I said, this almost urgency, like, I have to do something great. I have to like live this destiny and do something really great. I think if I were to tell my 22 year old self anything, I probably would just say like, you are on the brink of a really amazing adventure, but you don't need to worry about it so much or like, or you don't need to try and make it so it's going to happen.

Steph:

Yeah, stop trying so hard. It will happen. Yeah, yeah.

Hannah:

Or you know, like just chill, call your mom more. Or you know, call like, like email people more.

Steph:

I wonder what makes us so restless in our early 20s.

Hannah:

I don't know what it is, but I did. I mean, it's not necessarily a bad thing. Like my, I remember a friend of mine just saying like, oh, you know, I'm, I'm still working on improving my writing and like I had this kind of like, nothing I write now is worthwhile. And she said like, no, you Definitely need to keep creating things now because. Because there's. This is the age where you, like, really care about things. Like, you're really concerned about a lot of things, but. Yeah, yeah, but there is kind of like, this restlessness that, you know, I think after I had. I've been to every single province, and, like, after I did complete all these provinces, there was, like, a huge restlessness within me that was. Just felt satisfied. Like, okay. It was kind of at a point where I thought, like, okay, that was. That was amazing. It was a great adventure. And now on to the next thing. Yep. And like, I. If I do travel in the future, it'll be great, but it's also, like, it's fine if I don't travel for a while.

Steph:

Let's leave with the takeaway. Is there any Chinese ghost story, story, film, short story, website, video, or something that somebody who doesn't speak Chinese can see online somewhere?

Hannah:

The ghost collection that I keep referring to is, like, Stories from a Strange Studio by Hu Zongling, and there are English translations of it. The Wei Gao's one is like, the. One of the earliest English translations. It's not a bad translation. It's just, like. It's definitely a product of the times.

Steph:

Right, right, right.

Hannah:

I think there are more modern translations of it, but there's. But there's even, like, more modern writers who incorporate a lot of Chinese ghost elements. Like, we think of Amy Tan, who has a lot of bad. The story is from a strange studio, I think, like, the Painted Skin is one of the most famous stories from that collection.

Steph:

Painted Skin?

Hannah:

Yeah, the Painted Skin. And that one is definitely more on, like, the scary ghost side. You're not gonna have, like, that's some terrible poetry. Die now. That's not gonna happen. I know, right? Of all reasons.

Steph:

I mean, you can almost take out poetry. Like, terrible song, terrible short story, terrible fiction, terrible.

Hannah:

Some of the stories. One of my favorites is, like, this is called Xiu Cai Guo, which is, like Scholar Guo. But I don't think there's, like, a good English translation that I know of. There probably are. And I'm just, like, not sure. So I'm just saying that right now. But the. Where. It's like, this guy, like, suddenly this, like, this ghost possesses him. He's, like, trying to write his essay, and, oh, my God, it controls his hand. There's, like, slash marks all over. And it's, like, destroying everything. Right? And he's freaking out. He calls his friend over like, oh, my God, I got possessed. Look at my essay. And his friend goes, whoever this ghost is, like, they should. They should be your teacher. Like, they have some really good edits. Like, this is a really good editor. And he's like, what? And so then, like, he ends up continuing to let himself be possessed by this ghost and ends up having this amazing literary career. Oh, my. But then he gets really arrogant about it and he's just like, I did this all myself. I'm a great writer. And the ghost gets mad and just, like, destroys all of his work and like, abandons him to his mediocrity.

Steph:

Oh, my God. Wait, what was the name of the story again?

Hannah:

The chi, like, the name that I keep seeing come up is Xiu Tai Guo. So that's X, I, U, C, A, I, and then Guo is G, U. Okay, that just means, like Scholar Guo. But I love that story. And I've been kind of playing around with that in my imagination a bit, like, see if I could do something with that.

Steph:

Oh, my gosh. If I say eat, pray, love, most people, like, roll their eyes.

Hannah:

Yeah.

Steph:

Okay, so. But the author, Elizabeth Gilbert, when she talks about creativity, is frigging brilliant. And she has a TED Talk on talking about, like, writers and writing and creativity. And are we comfortable with the whole, like, the writer's responsible for everything that happens, which usually, like, drives them to isolation, kind of going crazy and all this kind of negative things that happen. And so she talks about the old fashioned idea of the museum and that the writer wasn't necessarily responsible for what was happening during the process. And so she goes through, you know, in the 15 minutes that you have for a TED Talk, and it's kind of. It's kind of interesting to think of.

Hannah:

Yeah.

Steph:

Is it our doing? Is it kind of like a combination of something bigger and us together? Is it just that we're the medium? Like, what is happening when creativity happens? And that whole thing, it's very similar to that story.

Hannah:

Yeah, in a way, it did make me think of amuse a lot, like. Yeah, but it was just like, you don't expect that from a ghost story.

Steph:

No, you don't.

Hannah:

So, I mean, the collection, like, stories from a strange studio are definitely, like, not necessarily horror stories, but, like, definitely just unusual strange stories. And usually a lot of them end up with the humans actually being questionable characters, with the ghosts being, like, pretty.

Steph:

Cool, which could happen.

Hannah:

Yeah.

Steph:

We're not all innocent. Right. They're probably not all evil.

Hannah:

So I guess. So I guess if I were to recommend ghost stories, I would probably recommend, like, that collection or at least like, starting there. One of the most popular ones is the painted skin, which is definitely more on, like, the slightly scary, creepy side. But there are some unique ones, like the tiger Guest. That's the poetry one. I mean, I'm exaggerating the ridiculousness, of course, but it's there. Yeah. And Xiu Tai Gua. And yeah, there are some very good ones.

Steph:

Yeah, yeah. If you. We were talking about travel a bit before we started the interview. And if you do happen to go to Japan, look up the Go Kai. I think it's G O K A I is the Romanization of this category of monsters. But they're not all monsters. Right. They're like a famous ghost. Famous spirit. Spirits is probably a better word that kind of work their way into, I want to say, Shinto religion. And. And they're just. They're everywhere. And actually in the library, the first time I was teaching in Tokyo, I found an English book that had the different pictures of the. What they were supposed to look like and the descriptions and what they do and all this kind of really cool information. So I brought it in, and our. My students and I were talking about it, and they didn't even realize that that wasn't in every culture. They were just like, oh, what?

Hannah:

Huh?

Steph:

And they've never talked about it in English. And so it was kind of cool. I was like, this is so cheating because I love stories like that. And I'm like, here, let's talk about something I'm interested in. And you're practicing how to talk about this with other people in English. And so it was really, really cool.

Hannah:

But the.

Steph:

You'll see, like, once you know what they are, you'll start to see them everywhere in Japan. You'll start to see the turtle guy, who I totally forget the name of. He's on. So to get outside of so many restaurants, and you'll start to see, like, their images all over the place, not realizing, oh, these are like fanciful spirits from Shinto mythology. And so it's really, really cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know if they're ghostness.

Hannah:

I don't know.

Steph:

What's the difference between a ghost and a spirit, man, I don't know.

Hannah:

It's like a. Actually, I'm not usually good at, like, the semantics of these kinds of things. Yeah, I guess, like, ghosts tend to have, like, this notion of, like, vengeful spirit, where it's like, a spirit. Are these, like.

Steph:

That's how people.

Hannah:

People tend to see them, or is like a spirit. I think spirit tends to read more religious. Maybe spirit is like a soul kind of thing.

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