Jennifer:
Yeah. So I'm Jennifer. I'm originally from California in the LA area. I've been living abroad for about 6 years now. Done a lot of traveling, but I've been here in China for two years.
Steph:
The item that you're going to read today, can you tell us a little bit about what it was, where it.
Jennifer:
Was, when it happened? Yeah. So for you guys today I have a poem. So I do a lot of fiction writing, but I was really inspired to write this poem due to some of the events that I've been reading about and also due to some of the changes that my own views have gone through over the years. So the poem is called Daddy, do youo Still Believe that?
Steph:
Alright, will you please start?
Jennifer:
Okay. Daddy, you said to respect the man in the Oval Office. Noble, just and true. You said that office is sacred, deserving of the few. You said not to criticize the leader. Noble, just and true. You said he was a Christian and we should thank God too. You said the office was above our flaws. Noble, just and true. You compared him to the Pope, a servant of Jesus like you. Daddy, do you still believe that? Noble, just and true do not describe the man I see parading round, speaking like a fool. You said this country was the greatest. Noble, just and true. You said that we belonged here. Every day our patriotism grew. You said the blue and golden passport, noble, just and true, was the envy of the world for which they all waited in a queue. You said to honor the flag. Noble, just and true. You cursed those who burned the red, white and blue. Daddy, do you still believe that? Noble, just and true do not describe the people I see hatred and violence, they spew. You said I should be proud. Noble, just and true. That this land was one of freedom and bravery. True, you said I was American. Noble, just and true. That my life was always here in the land of the red, white and blue. You said I would prosper and be. Noble, just and true. You said my dreams would be fulfilled. Wasn't that always your view? Daddy, do you still believe that? Noble, just and true do not describe the opportunities I see the wealth is for the few. I said I wanted to go to a new land, noble, just and true. Where people believe in freedom the same way that I do. I said I sought all those people, the noble, just and true, who fought for human rights and gave medical care too. I see the death of my country no longer. Noble, just and true. You think me ungrateful and distant, but this burns in my soul too. Daddy, do you still believe that noble Just and true Describe the land that you call home When I have left and said adieu.
Steph:
Thank you for that. Some things I was thinking of. How far into arriving in China did you. Did you write that?
Jennifer:
So I wrote this. Let's see, about a year and a half into being here.
Steph:
Okay.
Jennifer:
Something like that.
Steph:
You're gonna happen. Okay. And did you revise it for a while after that, or did you leave it?
Jennifer:
I actually spent, like a day making a few edits, working on the rhyme scheme. In terms of the content, it never changed, really. Just working on, you know, the wording. Sure, sure.
Steph:
So when did you revisit this? After that time period.
Jennifer:
So I wrote this and then kind of put it away. Just life gets busy. And I kind of looked at it again, not until. Well, after our first conversation, actually started thinking about it and really reflecting a lot about what this poem means to me in my journey.
Steph:
And what do you think of it now?
Jennifer:
I think it makes me sad.
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
I mean, I think it was written in frustration. And now every time I look at it, I just think that. And it brings me to a point that I just keep thinking about that. That being abroad and living abroad and traveling and meeting people from different countries and meeting people from different cultures and different belief systems, it can change you to a point where there's no going back and that you sort of are disconnected from the former self. And in a way, that's a good thing, a beautiful thing, because you're moving forward, you're learning, you're changing. And yet if your former self is connected to a family, to a past that you're somehow broken from, there's also sadness in that.
Steph:
I think there's a lot to unpack with that idea. There's a lot to unpack with. I've met so many different expats throughout the years in different countries, especially in Asia. And I think I make the assumption that I didn't fit in back in the US and so I assume that other people, if they had, wouldn't have left and gone elsewhere. And sometimes that has come to bite.
Jennifer:
Me in the ass.
Steph:
So I'll just. I'll just ask you outright, did you feel like you. You fit. You. Were you fit in in the US that you wanted to be there before you left? Like what?
Jennifer:
Yes and no. So growing up in my community in northern Los Angeles, no. I felt like I can remember being 5, 6 years old and feeling like I didn't fit in, that there was something different. But right before I left the States, I was living in Berkeley. And there I felt like I fit in perfectly. Yeah. That everything. Somehow I think I had found my Mecca, basically my Eden, and I loved it there. So kind of it's yes and no.
Steph:
Yeah. So if it was such a good fit, and I kind of know the answer offline already, but for our listeners, why did you leave?
Jennifer:
There's two main reasons. One has to do with adventure, simply I and curiosity. So the desire to see more, the desire to experience more. By the time I stopped living in the States, I'd already traveled in probably 30 countries. And so I just. I had this longing, this curiosity. But also part of it was opportunity and the lack of it back home, the inability to make ends meet, which is kind of mentioned in the poem, that, you know, the opportunities that I saw being available back home were either in technical industry or it involved dishonesty in some way. And I didn't really want to be a part of that.
Steph:
What do you mean by that?
Jennifer:
I worked at a law firm in D.C. actually, I worked in D.C. for a while, actually, both at international organization and a law firm. And I saw that money would flow in the direction of self interest. Basically that environmental law department was really defending, you know, corporations doing bad things. And I didn't. I don't believe in that. I don't believe in making money doing something that's against your own ethics or morals.
Steph:
Why to your father and not so somebody else went to.
Jennifer:
So my father and I were very close when I was younger, and I think I looked up to him a lot, especially politically. And I grew up very Republican, very conservative, and believed in that. I mean, wholeheartedly believed in that as a child and even up until the time I probably graduated high school.
Steph:
What did that mean for you, growing up conservative? What did you believe in?
Jennifer:
Believed in the Republican Party, believed in the right to own guns. That was a big part of my family and mostly the party itself. I think that was kind of what my father always instilled in me, that the party is so important and defending the party. And there's also the religious aspect of my family. But more than that, it was that identity. And it wasn't until I got to leave that it started breaking down. And it started breaking down very quickly. Once I didn't have this voice telling me what to believe or who to be. In a way, it started breaking down. And the conflict comes from the source that, you know, my father still very much believes these things. And he's a man who I find very intelligent. He's not formally educated, but Who I believe is very intelligent in some ways. And I've had to call that into question.
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
And this poem really does. It's. It's. How can you believe that? You know, with the intelligence, with the life experiences that you've had, how can this continue to be your belief system? When I'm younger and yet somehow I figured out a different way of thinking, of believing, and we've come into numerous conflicts about ideas and politics and things over the ages. But yeah, it's mostly, how can someone I see as being smart or intelligent believe these things?
Steph:
Did you share this poem more time?
Jennifer:
No, I have not.
Steph:
You never shared it with him?
Jennifer:
No, actually I've never shared it with anyone until this moment.
Steph:
Oh, my goodness. Thank you. Wow. Are you going to give him a little heads up before. Not that this is so popular, he's going to be hearing about it, but just in case. No, no, I don't.
Jennifer:
I don't think so. I think the odds of him hearing about this point are a little low. Wow.
Steph:
Okay. If he did accidentally hear it, what do you think he would say?
Jennifer:
That's a hard question, actually. I think he might be annoyed on one level, but I think if he took the time to get over that, then he might see the sadness in it the way that I do. Especially the. There's this line in the second to last stanza. You think me ungrateful and distant, but this burns in my soul too. And my father's called me many names about being selfish and ungrateful and not, you know, not caring about other people because of the way I live, because of traveling and because of wanting to be abroad. And I think he underestimates how hard it is on me as well, that, yes, of course I want to be abroad. Yes, of course I love the experiences that I have. But it doesn't mean that there aren't times that I want to cry because there are so many challenges my family is going through and I'm not there.
Steph:
There is a price living overseas. There is a relationship price that somehow doesn't come across and it's.
Jennifer:
It's.
Steph:
Apparently it's worth it because we keep doing it. But there is a very, very strong price. You miss entire periods of people's lives that you really care about. Why do you think we keep doing it then?
Jennifer:
I mean, it's a good question. For me, it comes down to I can think kind of things I mentioned before. I love the adventure. I love the challenges in a way. Always wanting to seek out differences, not wanting to be Stuck in where I came from. And then, yeah, of course, economic opportunity also drives a lot of what we do, especially here in China.
Steph:
Yeah, right.
Jennifer:
I mean, there's a reason I'm here and not in life. Latin America, where I speak the language, it's the economy.
Steph:
Yeah, exactly. No, I ping ponged from Asia to Latin America, to Asia to Latin America two or three times before I was like, okay, that's it. Clearly I'm not going to work in Latin America. It's the, the economy. The like, there's too many things that were fluid at the same time.
Jennifer:
Yeah.
Steph:
My work, my landlord's idea of what sensible rent and maintenance were. My relationships were all fluid at the same time. And I'm like, I can deal with. If one of them is stable, I'm cool, I can be flexible in the others. But when all three are moving at all times, it's just not my comfort zone. And so I just kind of had to give up on being in a place where I felt more comfortable for a place that was more prosperous, where I wasn't necessarily more comfortable. And then it shifted. And I do feel much more comfortable in Asia, but it just. There are those choices.
Jennifer:
Right.
Steph:
That you don't realize the first few times. Opportunities. Opportunities. Did your father grow up in the us?
Jennifer:
Yes. Yeah. So my family's from California for a few generations.
Steph:
Was what he thought about the us the stuff he was teaching you about, like, to be proud of it and how good it was, was that true during most of his life? Do you think he was passing down what he experienced?
Jennifer:
I actually am not sure. So a little back information about my father, he came from a very difficult situation growing up, and he was even kicked out of his home at 16 and was told, you're a man, you know, grow up and take care of yourself. And so for a man with no education and no stable home life, the fact that he was able to have a family, support that family, have his own business for many years. But that's come to kind of turn because my family lost everything in the housing crisis of 2008. My father's in the housing business. We also lost our home. And I mean, that's part of the inspiration for this. Like, how can you still believe in this system, in this government, when you literally lost everything? And yes, this country, like, well, that country, the US lets you build, but it also stripped you bare pretty quickly.
Steph:
A lot of times. Pretty quickly.
Jennifer:
Yeah, I suppose. I mean, that can happen anywhere.
Steph:
It can, but it feels like. And I know this isn't True. Because there are a lot of places with a low safety net, but it feels like for what we have and the resources we have, our safety net is ridiculously low.
Jennifer:
Right.
Steph:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jennifer:
I think that even brings up, like, because I mentioned in the poem fighting for human rights and medical care, too. Yeah. Like, because, you know, these are. And that's. I think it's one of the reasons I left the States and haven't gone back.
Steph:
Me, too. I could talk about that.
Jennifer:
Yeah, I'm sure we both could.
Steph:
Oh, my God. No, I had.
Jennifer:
I had.
Steph:
Sir, I've said this on a different podcast. I had surgery my first semester of my masters, and I had surgery in the first semester. Different ones. First semester of my PhD.
Jennifer:
Okay.
Steph:
And for both of them, it took me a while to pay off what the insurance that I had through the universities didn't. As a matter of fact, the second surgery we were in, we were in the PhD program for about two years, and I was paying monthly. Thank God they at least had that for the part that the insurance didn't cover. It's not like I wasn't insured. And it still took me about a year after I came to China to pay off the rest. Like, that's for what they just didn't cover. And a major surgery that the doctor recommended to keep me alive. I mean, it's just like.
Jennifer:
What just happened.
Steph:
Yeah. And I was like, okay, I was trying to go back, use the PhD as a way to get back into, you know, setting up a community and a life and kind of reintegrating back into the US Because I'm like, okay, maybe it's time that our overseas adventure is done. And then that happened. And I went, oh, no, I think we're going. We're still fighting. The US And I are still fighting about if I can ever live here long term.
Jennifer:
Yeah, that's a solid question. And that's what we all have to ask ourselves. Like, do we go back? And for me, right now, the answer is no.
Steph:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jennifer:
So.
Steph:
Oh, yeah. It's so. So complex. So. Yeah. Opportunities. Adventure and opportunities. Adventure and opportunities. Yeah. I wrote down envy, prosper, freedom. And it's funny because you pointed out the sadness. You pointed out the sadness a few times. And I was thinking of the things that. That your dad was teaching you in the. The things that you thought about the places you were going to and how parallel those, like his idea of the US and your idea of elsewhere. Right. How is the understanding of why you're doing what you're doing with Your father.
Jennifer:
Now, at this point, my family is happy for me. It took, it was a journey. I mean, really, it went from, you know, as I mentioned before, many negative comments, many very terrible things being said. I think in a way my family has realized that I'm better off abroad, that I'm happy, that I mean, I've. They've seen that I've gone through many challenges. They know that certain countries have worked out better than others for me and China has been so far the one that's really worked out very well for me. And they, they see that. But I think especially, especially telling them I was moving to China, I think was so foreign for them. Like, you know, isn't China that poor country where people don't have enough to eat, where they don't have access to.
Steph:
Anything because everything's blocked off and banned and, you know. Yeah.
Jennifer:
And so poor. That was. And dirty. That was the impression that, you know, they have. But I think they've really come a far away in realizing that this is my life and I know, I know it affects my mom, I think even more though, because I think she misses me and wishes I was there. But she's also happy.
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
That I've. I've found a life where I'm not struggling. Yeah. Especially now that they're struggling so much.
Steph:
How are they doing?
Jennifer:
Yeah. I'll just say things are very, very difficult and. Yeah. And that's why this poem is sort of a double edged sword because it's. On the one hand, it's this feeling that I have that seeing my family and thinking, God, how, how are you in this position? But then also feeling so much sympathy.
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
And sadness about the situation that they're in and the way things are.
Steph:
There is, I like to call it expat guilt. There is this feeling of I'm doing really well here and do you have any of that?
Jennifer:
Absolutely. Oh yeah, all the time. I mean, it's, it's. I see, I see everyone struggling. I mean, I feel like people back home, they don't get out of the rut. Like, and then, and even, you know, if they get married and they have kids and they're just always struggling, they're always struggling to pay off loans to get the house and there's so many distinct goals that you need to have back home and, and how do people do it? And. Yeah, so I have the skill that my life is much easier and that I'm also so far away from their struggles, from their reality.
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
It's hard for me to Connect to it.
Steph:
Yeah, yeah. When we have family stuff going back home, we think, okay, maybe this is the time we need to go back. And then we think, well, wait, we know the jobs we can get there. We know the life we would have.
Jennifer:
We.
Steph:
We would be so struggling ourselves that we couldn't actually help. So it's not actually useful for us to ponder that for that purpose. Like, it doesn't make sense. It feels like such a weird thing to me. My parents were. It's been almost 50 years, 50, 60 years now. They were Italian immigrants, got citizenship, etc. Etc. They had, I think, junior high education. I don't know how it's a story has changed in my head a few times since my childhood from what they told me to what might have existed. But they ended up with, like, owning property and a business and all this kind of stuff. And I'm like, whoa, they did it. They did the American dream. But I didn't feel that when I was in it. Even when I moved to California when I was like 19 years old and there was a lot more opportunity than the small town I grew up in, I still didn't feel like that was going to be. I felt like it was always trying to keep up with not failing, with not being broke, not being on the street. Like, it's just really hard all the time.
Jennifer:
Yeah.
Steph:
I don't feel that overseas so much.
Jennifer:
No. I mean, but the thing is, we're also sort of in a different class. We're also some. I'd say semi elite. Right. I mean, we're definitely not the top of the top, Especially in Shanghai.
Steph:
Especially in Shanghai. Especially in tier one cities in China. We're not poor, but we're definitely not at the top. The top here is high.
Jennifer:
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. But we're. But just. I had this conversation very recently with some other friends, but just being a foreigner somehow sets our lives just a little bit easier. You know, being the immigrant, having some outside information or skill or whatever, we have this advantage. And.
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
Is it fair? I don't know. But then also we pay the price coming here. We lose the community connections, we miss home. We. We go through all of that. So, yeah.
Steph:
I don't know. And supposedly with the. Because they have so many, a couple of generations now of kids going. Kids, people going overseas and studying and coming back.
Jennifer:
Yes.
Steph:
And acquiring skills and language and just generally global connections there. They don't need as many people from outside the country. So is this even going to be the land of opportunity for foreigners? In the future?
Jennifer:
I'd say probably not.
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
I think the days are numbered.
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
But I think we're here at a good time.
Steph:
Yes, agreed.
Jennifer:
I think we're making the most of a good situation, for sure.
Steph:
When you reread it, like a month or two ago.
Jennifer:
Yeah, about that. Yeah.
Steph:
What was the most surprising part of the poem for you then? Did anything surprise you?
Jennifer:
That's a good question. I think maybe the voice, the way that it's sort of this mix of childlike innocence with adult perspective, with sadness, but with this hope. So the way that it's all kind of there. I think it took reading again because when I. When I first wrote it, I think I was very focused on the father aspect and the divide between my family and myself in terms of our beliefs and everything. But I think the poem says a lot about me. You know, obviously it talks about my father, and it's obvious things he believes in, especially in the very beginning of the poem. But how telling it is of myself and my own journey. And I think that I didn't see. It's kind of like a story of losing identity, finding identity again and having some hope, which is almost ironic, as we kind of were saying that the United States was the land of hope, and now I'm finding hope by leaving it. Right.
Steph:
It feels so ironic. And I keep hearing this narrative over and over, and I'm like, this is not what I was expecting. Like, okay, okay. That last part that you said about it says a lot about your journey. Can you dig into that some more?
Jennifer:
So, I mean, I think it says a lot about the journey that one takes kind of to adulthood. In a way. It's almost a coming of age, the separating, the no longer seeing your parents as the gods. Right. And seeing them for their flaws. And, I mean, I always had this sort of, like, different ideas about things, but not about specifically politics or about, you know, about the US Because I believe the US Was an amazing place. And so my journey has been, in part, a journey of losing oneself to find oneself.
Steph:
Hero's journey.
Jennifer:
Yeah. I think the loss of. Of all the. Because we, you know, as people, we have all these identities, Right. And we can. We can put these identities with words. So Republican, American, Christian, or Catholic, in my family's case, you know, good student. All these things are our identities and breaking them down. And then my journey was, well, okay, if I'm not going to be all these things, what am I going to be? And I found a lot of that through travel and living abroad, so. And I think it's still in flux, like I think our identities are, and I think we underestimate that sometimes when we're young. At this point, my identity is much that of an expat. And not just living here in Shanghai, but the fact that my boyfriend and I are planning on buying a place in France and making our life there. And now that France is perfect at.
Steph:
The moment, no place is perfect.
Jennifer:
It's had better days, let's put it that way.
Steph:
Oh, sure.
Jennifer:
But just. Yeah, the identity is. Is no longer, I would say, even American. I mean, I identify first as of the world, second as Californian. You know, American's not really an identity for me. Like, unless I'm talking linguistic difference with a teacher from England, then, okay, sure.
Steph:
But yeah, 38 countries. You traveled to 38 countries before you started living overseas? Did I hear that right?
Jennifer:
Something like that. I'm not sure exactly how many. It's at 76 at the moment.
Steph:
Oh, my God. Generally speaking, do you stay in a country for a few days, few weeks, few months? Like how long?
Jennifer:
It really depends. I mean, some places, you know, as little as three days, I think is kind of leap. Sometimes it's been months, but yeah, I usually try to spend at least. At least a week in smaller countries, at least two weeks or more in larger countries.
Steph:
Part of my not so hidden agenda with this podcast is that there's so little about the non business expat out there in the world, and I think people really misunderstand our lives. So is. Would you say there's a really. There's a between your understanding or feeling of a country when you're just traveling in it versus living in it?
Jennifer:
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. So when you're traveling and it depends on the way you travel and where you go, and obviously all of those things. But when you live somewhere, I mean, even so, China, for example, I don't speak any Chinese. I mean, I'm really none. And I'm. I am always an outsider. I'm always looking in, you know, that almost like a window.
Steph:
Right.
Jennifer:
And so I feel like even living here, I never get the full picture of China. But obviously when you live somewhere, you have more interaction with different types of people. And I think that's where you really get the difference. When you're traveling, you're gonna interact with the same kind of basic, you know, hotel people or bus drivers or. Or grocery store, you know, those kinds of things. But living somewhere, like I said, even when you're so on the outside as I am here you, you feel the daily life. You see people's daily routines. Like, even if it's just seeing all the old men that hang out in the like, common area of my building, like smoking their cigarettes, sitting in all these like houses, broken chairs every day, like it's, you just get a different feel. Yeah, I like that. Enjoy that.
Steph:
Me too. Me too. Me too. I mean, I don't want to put one above the other, but it feels like a very different experience to me. Even as far as the introspection, like you put me on a train and my brain just starts going and I get for some reason that that's my place where I think about the world, the life, the big picture. Like everything just comes out of me. And that's great living, but living overseas, it does that, but in a longer way and kind of in a deeper way.
Jennifer:
Yeah.
Steph:
So it just, yeah, that's very, very different.
Jennifer:
Yeah. Because I mean if you, if you just go travel, like I think about the first time that I really did my, my big backpacking trip. I traveled in Europe a little bit. I'd studied abroad in Spain and then I did a big backpacking trip at 22 in Latin America for about a year. And you know, obviously it changed me a lot. It changed my perspective, but it didn't, it wasn't the same feeling. Even though I did spend actually several months at a time in some of the countries. So I got a bit deeper. It's not the same as the way you change living in China. Even though when I came to China I already been to 70 countries. Countries, I mean, I'd already seen a lot. Yeah.
Steph:
Changed. Yeah.
Jennifer:
So much. Sometimes we don't necessarily change in good ways. And I feel like sometimes that's my problem that I have in China. I think somehow maybe my reactions to things going on around me in China sometimes make me a worse person. But not to say that it's China, but it's my reaction.
Steph:
Expat stress is real. Sometimes it just builds up to high. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're human. I mean, that's the thing. We're not always going to be open minded culturally just because we're from a place and we're coming in, we don't. That doesn't make us perfect.
Jennifer:
Yeah, yeah.
Steph:
They certainly aren't. They as if I can lump 1.4, 1.6 billion people in one category, but locals and foreigners, as if those are the only two groups, aren't necessarily always forgiving and patient with each other. And that's life.
Jennifer:
It's True.
Steph:
Yeah. Would you write this today?
Jennifer:
Yes, absolutely. Yes. Because even though since this. Some things have gotten more complicated with my family, and I think I have more of the guilt and the sadness than even when I wrote this, I would still write it because I still question. I still question how people back home. And yes, it's addressed to Daddy, but at the same time, it's addressed to. To all the people back home, you know, how. And it's something that I. I think. I think about a lot. I mean, I really, when I write, it's about social and political issues. That is what my writing is about. It's been that way since I was in high school. So, yes, I think. I think I would maybe. Maybe not addressing it directly to my father just because everything going on in my family, but I think that's actually what gives this poem the power. That's what makes it so. I don't know how to say, just like, it brings it home, having it directed directly at dad. Right. But, no, I don't think I'd really change much. I think every point that I make in here is just as valid today as it was, what, five months ago when it was written.
Steph:
Okay, did I hear you right that you just said that you're more frustrated now than when you originally wrote the poem?
Jennifer:
I mean, the situation with my. With my family has gotten more difficult. I think my level of frustration in terms of what's going on back home, I think insane is the new normal in terms of. And so it's almost like doing politically.
Steph:
Back in the U.S. yeah. Okay.
Jennifer:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's gotten to a point that it's so insane that it's almost not believable. Like, we're living in this fantasy world. Yeah. And so it's hard to get more frustrated or more disconnected from it because we're already like, this is an Orwellian novel, what is going on around us. So, I mean, I think that remains rather constant and has since the elections.
Steph:
But.
Jennifer:
Yeah. And I do go up and down in terms of how much I can care. Like, there are some days that it tears me apart, and there are some days I just have to block out the emotion. Just can't deal with it. Wait, it being the situation and the feelings about the situations back home. Yeah, yeah.
Steph:
No, it's.
Jennifer:
It's intense.
Steph:
I actually went on a media blackout for a little while after Trump got elected, and it just coincidentally happened about. Well, the election happened about a month before we left the US not intentionally. It was actually a blessing in disguise. We were planning to leave anyway, and I thought we'd leave and things would get better with Hillary and da, da, da, da, da. And then it all went down and I went, oh, my God, thank goodness we're leaving. And then guilt for the people left behind that have to deal with it, and then anger at the people that made it happen. And I still am not dealing with the anger and people that made it happen because I feel like we were kind of working on some stuff, and now I feel like we're just going backwards, like big and fast.
Jennifer:
Yeah. It's a huge regression. Yeah. And the thing is, I. Kind of years ago, I remember, actually, I think it was when Obama first got elected. I remember saying, there will be a regression.
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
Because that just is the trend that we about talk politically in the United States for so long. And I didn't think the regression would be this.
Steph:
I didn't know what this looked like. I. I was like, yeah, there's gonna be a forward, forward, two back, one kind of thing, steps wise, and okay, fine, but this feels much worse than that. I don't know. I don't know, like, how. How low can go.
Jennifer:
It's hard. And the problem is, in my opinion, that. That we are so divided, so even. I mean, bringing it back to the. The idea of the poem even within a family being so divided and, you know, not wanting to even touch these subjects because how do you have this conversation when you're standing on two sides of this gorge and you will literally never. You can scream from each side, but you'll never hear each other.
Steph:
Yeah. When the Gulf War hit, I was in my senior year of high school, and I was pretty. Not anti government, but definitely anti war. And I went and protested downtown, and it got on the news. My brother was in the Air Force. We didn't talk for years. He couldn't discuss it. He couldn't. We weren't super tight beforehand, so I have to do that disclaimer. We were five years apart, and there was a lot of crap in my family, and it's not like we were super tight. And then it just all ended. It was pretty relationship to begin with.
Jennifer:
Okay.
Steph:
But then it got intentionally cold and we couldn't even talk about it. And I was like, well, shouldn't we at least discuss it? Shouldn't we know where we're coming from on both sides? And he was just like, no, you're wrong. I'm doing this to protect of you. And I was like, yeah, but, but, but, but. And I wanted to have that discussion, and it would not happen. And I don't think it even still happened. Like, we're on a talking basis now, but it took a long time for him to get over. He thought I was. It was a slap in his face, like he was risking his life, and I was protesting his actions of risking his life. And what I was thinking, even at 17, was much bigger than. Than him.
Jennifer:
Right.
Steph:
And so, yeah, those divides are crazy. They're crazy to me.
Jennifer:
Yeah. I mean, we're just dealing with this polarism that's out of control. And. And how do we have this conversation? How could we sit here and have this podcast if we were on opposite ends of the belief spectrum?
Steph:
What.
Jennifer:
What would we say to each other?
Steph:
I don't know.
Jennifer:
Like, how can we talk about this without it getting somewhat messy?
Steph:
Yeah, it has to get messy. I mean, we're. We're kind of a nation of diversity in a way. Well, at least we were. I don't know what we currently look like because we've kicked a lot of people out in the past few.
Jennifer:
And prevented new people from coming. And I mean, yes, we're still diverse in many, many ways, but the elite is becoming more powerful in terms of what they're able to exercise, and marginalized groups are becoming increasingly marginalized. That doesn't sound like the United States. At least not the one we claim to be.
Steph:
Right. It's not the narrative I grew up with, and I don't know if that narrative was even true, but it really doesn't feel true anymore. Ah, we're a melting pot.
Jennifer:
No.
Steph:
Are we?
Jennifer:
We're a variety plate with each little apart in its own section.
Steph:
Right. Oh, my God. Like those Tupperwares, that different compartment. Yes, that's what we are. Departmentalized Tupperware. Yeah.
Jennifer:
Those plates that the kids get, you know?
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
Their macaroni and cheese doesn't touch their mashed potatoes.
Steph:
See, but that would actually taste good. The sauce from the macaroni and cheese on the mashed potatoes.
Jennifer:
That sounds pretty good.
Steph:
Yeah, I'm okay with that. Anything.
Jennifer:
Mac and cheese.
Steph:
Oh, my God, I miss Whole Foods Mac and cheese. I'm not a huge Mac and cheese person in general, but for some reason, I think it's because the cheeses they add in there. Did you ever have that?
Jennifer:
I think I had that. I didn't really shop at Whole Foods for price reasons.
Steph:
For bad.
Jennifer:
There are certain things that are actually.
Steph:
The same price, better quality, and then there's a lot of stuff that's really pricey and in Their hot bar. They have the salad bar and the hot bar, the hot car just for some reason has this insanely gooey multi cheese thing. It's beautiful. If. If and when you go back to visit, find your way to a Whole Foods and just try the Mac and cheese. I don't know why it's so good.
Jennifer:
But it is probably handle that and.
Steph:
They don't have it. I went to London this year and they have a Whole Foods and they did not have it in their salad bar. And I know regional, they wouldn't have gone American. Yeah, yeah. But, oh, my God, it's really good, the different cheeses.
Jennifer:
And there are all those things that we connect to as Americans in terms of things that we miss, things that we love about our country because we grew up in that country and we do love it. Being an expat doesn't mean that you hate your country or that you don't miss aspects or that you don't want aspects of it in your life. It means that you have maybe different views or you're certain reaching for something more.
Steph:
Yeah, well, yeah. I mean, growing up, probably you did this too. You met people from all over the place, or people's parents were from all over the place. There were people around you that were from different places. And for me, that got me thinking, I want to go there. And so how can you grow up in a place that diverse and not want to see it firsthand?
Jennifer:
We didn't really have that diversity. We had Mexicans. It's. It's la, but I mean, you know, segregated, as we mentioned earlier.
Steph:
Sure, sure.
Jennifer:
But.
Steph:
But did you take any trips as a kid, like to different parts of the US or.
Jennifer:
We went to Disney World.
Steph:
Okay, okay. There were probably different kinds of people at Disney, but Disney World was pretty expensive. Just still. Yeah, yeah, maybe.
Jennifer:
I don't know.
Steph:
This is the problem. Ah, perspectives are so different. My first city was New York City.
Jennifer:
Wow.
Steph:
And then we moved to Pennsylvania.
Jennifer:
Okay.
Steph:
Which is just. Yeah. At the time, as whitewashed as one could get, except for the help and the one Italian family, which was mine. So we were. The ethnic diversity in my neighborhood, which was really weird because I was used to there being a community of Italians around us. And then suddenly there were all these, like, Pennsylvania Dutch, very white, very middle class, very careful, conservative people that I didn't know how to relate to. And they never laughed. So I wasn't sure if I wanted to. I was like, you people don't seem like a lot of fun. You don't have block Parties. I don't know what's happening here.
Jennifer:
Can you imagine with the Italians coming in? They must have been shocked.
Steph:
Oh, it was something. Just our hair alone was just a nightmare for them. They had issues. So when you first came to China.
Jennifer:
Yeah.
Steph:
You had all these views of Republican California. Believe what I grew up with kind of thing. Not consciously not. When you got on the plane, you said, I'm gonna keep these ideas. But you had them when you came here.
Jennifer:
No, not when I came to China.
Steph:
Oh, not when you came to.
Jennifer:
Okay. No, no, no. I mean, I. I dumped that stuff.
Steph:
I dumped that.
Jennifer:
Several years before. So I think I mentioned before when I lived in Sp. Spain, it really started to change my ideas. And then backpacking in South America, I met a lot of people from a lot of different countries, really questioned religion, God, politics, everything. And I think it was when I was there that I really lost the American identity.
Steph:
Interesting. In America, you lost the American identity. Did you lose it slowly over time, or was it a quick switch?
Jennifer:
Kind of both. I think certain parts I lost slowly without noticing. But I do remember very clearly this day that I knew I didn't believe in the religious aspect of my life anymore. And I was sitting in a church listening to the priest talk, and I remember thinking, I don't believe a word he's saying. So maybe that build up was gradual, but definitely the realization was very sudden and very memorable because I've never gone to church since.
Steph:
Whoa. Okay.
Jennifer:
But in terms of losing the American identity and living abroad, I mean, I think it transferred to the Californian identity. And specifically, when I came back from Latin America, I was able to go move up to Berkeley, where I felt like I would fit in better.
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
And so my identity was very much Berkeleyan. And that culture and that sort of subculture.
Steph:
Yeah. Berkeley. Berkeley, Berkeley.
Jennifer:
I should know that town.
Steph:
Why do I not know that town? That's how deep in the city I was. What, that place over there across the bridge?
Jennifer:
Yeah.
Steph:
That lovely place that actually has summer, but more so. Yeah.
Jennifer:
A little bit. We still get the fog.
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
Because the bridge is right there. It comes straight through. Yeah, yeah. Oakland gets summer.
Steph:
Okay.
Jennifer:
Berkeley doesn't.
Steph:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I assume that since they were both over there, they would both get it now.
Jennifer:
Literally straight through the gap of the Golden Gate Bridge.
Steph:
That's a bitch. Oh, I'm sorry. Whatever. It's still a lovelier place.
Jennifer:
I loved it. It was Wonderful place.
Steph:
Yeah. Wonderful.
Jennifer:
Good people.
Steph:
What would it take for you to consider living in the US again? What would need to change.
Jennifer:
If this conversation isn't politically charged enough, let's just throw the atomic bomb at this California separation.
Steph:
Oh, I would love that. Except for I don't have residency anymore, so that would make me a foreigner. But I'd still love it because I would work my way into getting residency anyway. Sorry, why?
Jennifer:
Why? Because I believe there are a lot of people in California who believe what I do about this white. Of improving the United States and taking care of people and changing the system so fully and completely. To be a system that respects humans and their individuality and the planet and culture and languages and all those things that matter to me. I think especially in Northern California, we have a lot of that. Of course, there are many Californians that are not many. Many. Obviously many.
Steph:
Orange county is an interesting place.
Jennifer:
And Orange County's just like where I grew up. I mean, there is just mirrors of each other.
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
So I think, you know, theoretically, if that day were to come, you know, that would be the time to come home. Call. But other than that. Yeah, I don't. I don't see anything that's gonna bring me back. I mean, unless teachers suddenly get paid double and housing is cut in half and Berkeley gets more sun in the summer.
Steph:
Yeah. And not intentionally to diss people in Orange County. There are lovely people everywhere in the world. Just overriding feel of a place. And that's a very personal thing. Orange county for me was very, very, very, very conservative feeling. That's my own thing. So.
Jennifer:
Yeah.
Steph:
Anyway, I don't want to piss anybody off, but.
Jennifer:
Yeah, well, but this is a very charged conversation, so some people will definitely disagree.
Steph:
Well, it's current. I mean, if they found this podcast, they're listening about an alternate lifestyle anyway, so who knows? Maybe they're ready to think about something differently. Would you like to go back to something you put online? Your first year in a new country? Maybe it reflects your struggles. Maybe it reflects your honeymoon period. Maybe it reflects all of those. It could be something visual, like photographs, an Instagram feed with pictures, Facebook. It could just be written tweets over the course of the year.
Jennifer:
It could be a blog.
Steph:
We certainly are going to abandon that completely in season two, too. We're just going to add more to it. If you're doing a YouTube channel or something along those lines, we could review those videos that you did that first year. It's really, really open to whatever it is that you put out into the world about your expat experience, that first challenging, intense year, that roller coaster ride of the year. I want to interview you. Let's just do it.
Jennifer:
Let's do it.
Steph:
Contact me at Steph Fuccio. S T E P H F U.
Jennifer:
C C I O.
Steph:
If you didn't write that down, all the information's in the show notes. Thank you so much, and I hope you enjoy the rest of this conversation. So you mentioned that there was a common theme in your writing similar to this.
Jennifer:
Yeah.
Steph:
Are you still writing now?
Jennifer:
Just because of my schedule with teaching and doing the master's degree at the moment, no, but. Oh, my God, I can't wait until the master's degree is done and I can focus on. On writing again. I put it aside for a long time because I was. I was on the road for three years.
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
Doing. Then I was doing the credential and the masters. Anyway, so, anyway, long story short, I have not delved into my writing as much as I'd like to. There have been a couple vacations where I've, like, really gotten back into it, and then I feel so good. And then reality hits again. I wrote a rather long short story, just maybe a week or two after Trump got elected, about the consequences. It plays on religious themes as well. So the consequences in heaven of Trump getting elected and then a sort of faux zombie apocalypse coming about that can only be cured by hot sauce, but we built a wall so the Mexicans are unable to provide us with any hot sauce. So I like satire. That's awesome. Oh, my God.
Steph:
I wouldn't see that made into a video. That's awesome. I love the hot sauce aspect of that.
Jennifer:
So Trump sees Jesus. Jesus appears to Trump to tell him to, you know, be more kind to immigrants and things, but he thinks that Jesus is a zombie, so. But yeah. So when I can write it, I do. And it's always. It's somewhat political, somewhat social in terms of, you know, religion is always a huge theme in my work because of my background.
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
And also racial injustice and those things, and prison injustice, the incarceration system, and things like that. I don't know why they just have clung to me so strongly, but they have. They can't escape those things.
Steph:
Our formative years are powerful.
Jennifer:
Yeah.
Steph:
And it's.
Jennifer:
It's.
Steph:
I feel like at this point, it's almost impossible to escape the things that affected us super early on. The best we can do is constantly address them, talk to them, instruct them. It'll be okay.
Jennifer:
Education reform.
Steph:
It's funny, the more I get in touch with my creative side, the more I feel like I'm Going back to my childhood and not just in the sense of play, but in a sense of. I used to like doing that. I used to like doing that. Yeah, I actually did that when I was a kid with very different technology. But wait a minute, where did I.
Jennifer:
What happened there?
Steph:
And not that anything went wrong. It's just like I feel like sometimes things go get very cyclical.
Jennifer:
Yeah.
Steph:
Yeah. Not quite the hero journey that you've had, but. Yeah, it just feels like things come and go theme wise in our lives. Do you have a favorite part of the poem? And favorite doesn't necessarily have to mean happy or.
Jennifer:
Yeah, I think, I mean, I think the end for me, because to me it's the strongest. It really strikes at what I feel. It's also, it's expressing some frustration, some sadness. Like, how can you be so happy with this system when your own daughter left the country because of this and doesn't gonna return? I'm not coming back.
Steph:
You're okay with that?
Jennifer:
You're okay with supporting a system and this goes beyond one man. This is a system.
Steph:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jennifer:
And you're okay with believing in this system when clearly you seen that doesn't work and it's. It's caused family to separate.
Steph:
How are you okay with that?
Jennifer:
Yeah, so I think to me, because it's, it's getting to the very deepest sentiment. Something that I could never actually say to my father. That's probably my favorite part. And the part where I say, like, this burns my soul too. Like, I think it's always underestimated. We said a little bit about it before just how, yes, we're expats and we have this wonderful life and we go to brunch and we travel and all those things.
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
But like, don't think that just because we're traveling that just because we're doing all these things that we don't feel pain or that everything is perfect. Like living abroad, traveling abroad, even, you know, backpacking. Whatever it is, there are perfect moments, despite what people on Facebook want you to think.
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
Like, so don't, don't think that this is just, you know, I'm not giving a shit. I'm just in my lala land. So yeah, I'm gonna do a shameless plug.
Steph:
I'm sorry, Jennifer. In Virtual Expats podcast, we actually address a lot of these things and ponder an expats technical journey online as well as their journey geography. Anyway, you just set me up.
Jennifer:
I have to not do that.
Steph:
That was my radio voice. So, so hard because I Moved overseas for the first time, like for a daily existence overseas in 2003.
Jennifer:
Okay.
Steph:
And I shifted from doing, like, really overly cute, trying to be funny travel writing to more like, daily life. This is what it's like to live overseas for me right now, right here kind of stuff. And still people, when I go home or when I talk to people, they talk to me like, you're always having a good time. You're always traveling. You're always this. And I do travel when I live overseas, which is slightly a mind bender of its own, but it's hard to convey that I do normal things on a daily basis that they do in a normal. In a normal basis, just in a different country. And I think that's part of what you just tapped into. Is it not pretty all the time? It's not great all the time. It's not bad all the time.
Jennifer:
It's.
Steph:
It's a daily existence elsewhere.
Jennifer:
Right.
Steph:
How do we get that across to people?
Jennifer:
It's funny because just this morning I had this conversation with my mom and she was like, oh, so how have you been doing? I'm like, just busy. Just working all the time. Yeah. And my mom's like, you can't say that you travel all the time. And I'm like, I mean, I do travel more than most people. Let's. Let's be very honest about that.
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
But like my day to day between, you know, teaching four different grades and doing a master's degree, I mean, it's. It's intense.
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
And then. Yeah. And then I've got to cook and I've got to clean and, you know, go to the vegetable market and haggle with the ladies and that's fun. But still it's work and ride my bike everywhere and that and take the metro and that takes a long time and there are inconveniences and gotta not fall in the trenches in my building right now.
Steph:
Oh, gosh. It's construction season in Shanghai. Oh, my God.
Jennifer:
But it's hard to get that across to people.
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
I mean, even if I send pictures of the trenches that we currently have outside the my door, you know, they think, oh, that's strange. But it's hard for them to make that connection of.
Steph:
Is it because Americans don't travel that much, or is it just because you're not there that it must be that different? Like, I don't know, what do you think of it?
Jennifer:
I think when you've never been somewhere and when you've never kind of been almost anywhere except for Home, you have maybe this image in your head, and it's hard to form that image in any sort of different way. Hard to connect. I mean, I remember even living in Korea and thinking about what my life would be like when I came to China. And there's this huge disconnect in terms of what would my life be like. Was it gonna be buying noodles on the streets? I mean, yeah, because I'd seen that in a movie about, like, that was supposed to be the 1950s and all the other little thermoses and their rice. But. Okay, is that my life? Like, what? You just don't see the details. Maybe you see the buildings, but you don't see the street. What is life like on the street? What's life like in the apartment? Or, you know, wherever we might go?
Steph:
There is a fair bit online. If folks are media oriented online, like YouTube and Facebook and Instagram and Twitter and these different things, there's quite a bit that expats are probably putting out there about their daily life. Have you recommended any of that for your family to kind of get them to. Or not family, not just family, but anybody back home to get them kind of to give them a visual view of what you're talking about?
Jennifer:
Not really. Part of me doesn't care if they know or not. And part of me is such a recluse in terms of media and like, I kind of live under a rock myself anyway, and I'm very technologically challenged at. And so, no, I mean, it's not something I've really tapped into. Like, I've used those resources a minimal amount. Especially. I've wanted to go live and work in the Middle east and I've, you know, kind of used blogs about that. Currently I'm looking into traveling in Pakistan. So I was interested about what white American females were saying about that. But in general, no, it's not something I've tapped into much. But it's a good. It's a good idea. Hey, mom, dad read this blog. But then they'll say, why don't you have a blog?
Steph:
Because I'm busy, boy, working full time and doing a master's degree. That's too funny. Have they visited? Have you asked them to visit? They.
Jennifer:
They considered it for a short time. They were only thinking they could possibly do it on one of those tours. But when you take one of those tours, every moment is regimented.
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
And I said, well, what's the point? Like, you don't want to come to China anyway. You wouldn't actually have any free Time to see me. And so. No. And I've actually told them they were feeling guilty. They thought they should come.
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
I told them just not to because I don't believe they would do well with it.
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
And I don't want to put them under that kind of stress, so. I know they did. I mean, they didn't come. I lived in Mexico either. They. They did want to come to the Vatican, though, when I lived in Spain. So I met them. They didn't want to come to Spain. That wasn't Catholic enough.
Steph:
But Spain is not Catholic enough.
Jennifer:
I'm more of a joke. But.
Steph:
Okay, wait a minute.
Jennifer:
No, Spain didn't insist them. They weren't interested. No Spain. There's nothing good in Spain.
Steph:
There was a Muslim side for a while, wasn't there?
Jennifer:
I don't think they even knew about that.
Steph:
Oh, okay.
Jennifer:
I think it was more just the Vatican with the shining light of God. You know, the Holy Spirit was like, flying in circles around it. And so, you know, so. Yeah, so I met them in Rome and.
Steph:
Yeah, but that's.
Jennifer:
That's. Yeah, that's only a broad time I've ever spent with them. Wow.
Steph:
Fair enough. Oh, my family doesn't travel. Despite being from overseas.
Jennifer:
They don't travel.
Steph:
So, yeah, Americans don't get a lot of time off.
Jennifer:
It's all those things and children and. Yep, exactly. Children and health and money.
Steph:
Yeah. My vision for this podcast. Yeah. Think about making Gone.
Jennifer:
I've gone in every direction. No, no, no.
Steph:
You've hit on so many things related to that. I mean, we're. We're talking about everything that I was thinking we would talk about, but there's. There's this. When I first started it, my vision was, okay, in that first year, despite how much you travel in that first year of living overseas, there's an intensity that doesn't seem to exist in the second year, third year. Even if you move to another country and have the first year there, it's just. First time is crazy. I think for me, for some people I've talked to, there's that intensity.
Jennifer:
What.
Steph:
So I envision. Sorry. Having something either for people who are about to make the leap to their first.
Jennifer:
Right.
Steph:
So they could see the light at the end of the tunnel, so they could go, okay, it's gonna be intense. I'm ready. I've got some outlets. I've got some people to talk to.
Jennifer:
Okay, let's go.
Steph:
And so they could kind of just know that it was going to be a little rocky and they'd get through it and it'd be really, really worth it. That was my not so hidden agenda also, for the folks in their first year.
Jennifer:
Right.
Steph:
So they could listen to it and kind of go, okay, there's an end to the intensity. And then it will just. There'll be moments where it'll be hard, but it won't be as hard as this. I don't know if we're doing any of that.
Jennifer:
I think. Comment on that a bit. So, I mean, I think my. My journey is not so much the intensity in terms of the day to day. Oh, how do you figure out which way to go? How do you take the metro? I mean, not so much that stuff. My first actual living abroad experience was in Madrid, and it was relatively straightforward. And honestly, I was so happy. My. My journey was more one of liberation. And you go through all these challenges in terms of logistics and many people's struggle is logistical. And I think what gets overlooked is the change in yourself when you're so focused on, oh, my God, I went through all these crazy, funny stories, just, you know, I got lost, I ended up here. And this happened and that happened. And you forget that. This first year living abroad, you must call into question everything about yourself. All of a sudden. All the values around you are different, all the experiences, all the people, every moment, every way, everything you eat is different. So who are you?
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
And you will question. So for anyone listening who, you know is thinking about living abroad, you will question every aspect of yourself. You will change.
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
In that first year, you will change a lot, even if you're not realizing it because you're so distracted by figuring everything out, you know, but you will. And I guess one of the points that I want to make is even if those changes have some negativity to them in terms of conflict or feeling confused or feeling lost or why can't I talk to my friends back home anymore? Right. We feel so different from each other and losing friends. I lost friends over things like this. It's worth it because the changes are our only growth. There's no regression, you know, you're not. You're not becoming somehow a less complete person by living abroad. You're not becoming less American. You're becoming more global or less wherever you're coming from. And that's the true essence of the first year abroad, in my opinion.
Steph:
That is beautiful.
Jennifer:
That is beautiful.
Steph:
Well, I'm a writer.
Jennifer:
Yeah, yeah.
Steph:
No, no, clearly, clearly you have a thing with words.
Jennifer:
But.
Steph:
Yeah. And I think that's why when you see first Year expats. And you can. You can kind of see that struggle happen.
Jennifer:
Yes, you can. And you're like, are you.
Steph:
This day you're gonna stay? Are you gonna stay?
Jennifer:
Yeah.
Steph:
Because if you stay, you can push through it, but if you leave, you might have to do that somewhere else or you might even have to do that at home.
Jennifer:
Well, that's the other side.
Steph:
But that's. That's the thing it does. I think it brings it out of you, whether you want it or not. And I think at any age, when you go abroad for the first time and stay, you know, you're living there, I think it does bring that. It does make you face that, all of that. Yeah.
Jennifer:
You're facing daily challenges that you wouldn't face. And so. So you come to China for the first time, you try to get on the metro, and people are pushing you out when you're trying to get in. Okay, so who are you? Are you the person that all of a sudden gets angry and explodes at people? Are you the person lets it go? Are you me? And you make casual rude comments and then keep going like, who are you?
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
Right. And it defines you and it makes you question.
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
You know, all these different things that you just never had to deal with.
Steph:
Before you've been back to. Well, you. Madrid was the first time you lived overseas. You went back home.
Jennifer:
Yeah, I had to finish university.
Steph:
Still, what was harder when you. When you first had to confront, you know, your identity when you were living overseas the first time or when you went back and saw your old self, so to speak.
Jennifer:
Going back? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, like, already there were so many things that had changed about me and people's comments about those changes and the way people interact with me. And then even more when I spent a year abroad in Latin America to a point where I just felt so isolated. I felt that nobody could understand. And that's. I mean, that's the negativity or that's the downside of these abroad experiences. Right. That, I mean, I came back to a world that I just could not connect to. I just couldn't get into it at all. Yeah. And I mean, hence why I ended up going to Berkeley. But I mean, really, my very best friend from school, you know, we never really spoke, spoke again after I came back from Latin America because she couldn't accept the person that I'd become, and she wanted me to change back into who I had been in high school because she had never left, and she never wanted me to leave either. And so someone Who I cared a lot about was gone from my life, and I still have nightmares about that. And that was more than 10 years ago now.
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
So, yeah, going abroad can bring about unexpected conflict in a lot of ways. The poem is about that, about these conflicts. It's still worth it, I think.
Steph:
It's massively.
Jennifer:
Absolutely.
Steph:
It's so hard in so many ways, but it's so good in so many ways. I wrote down early on when you were still reading something about a cocoon. I don't know, because I just. It sounded like you were kind of fighting your way out.
Jennifer:
That sounds rather accurate. I think I really had to fight. I mean, I was so oystered as a child. I mean, really. Like, I grew up with a very one perspective of the world, very unicultural, one Right. Belief system, one way of seeing everything, you know, And I really did have to fight to get out. And to the negative comments and behaviors of so many people who surrounded me.
Steph:
I was thinking emotionally, but yes, it goes back even further than that. Yes, it was a long gestation period. I get that.
Jennifer:
I get that.
Steph:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've gone the full trajectory to the beauty of the expat life and the freedom and the financial relaxation that can happen if you're in the right place at the right time with the right skills and all those kinds of things. The people that you meet, the diversity of people that you meet, being exposed to other cultures, and then the downside of the expat guilt and the internal struggles and really, really having to face your demons and sort yourself out and all that kind of stuff. Is there any emotion we've left out?
Jennifer:
I don't know, Joy. I don't know. I mean, I'll just add, if we were talking about the emotions, love. Because I think that staying home, I wouldn't have found love the way that I found it. Being abroad with someone who's gone through the same struggles with someone who I can connect with, because we've. We both fought to get out and we've both become more complete people because of our experiences. So, yeah, there we go.
Steph:
We left that one to make the sound.
Jennifer:
Yeah.
Steph:
Cheers to that. Seriously. Married another American abroad, but someone who had gone through that while I was going through that in a different country, and then we met in another country, like a different country. So, yeah, yeah, that understood that experience, because going home between countries and dating and not being able to share that part of me that I liked and thinking that we could go to another country after leaving the U.S. they were just like what? It was not working. Even if they had traveled, like, the thought of living overseas different, even if they weren't American. Like, I tried all kinds of different things. I was like, this is not working. I'm gonna have to give back. I'm gonna go back anyway. But that'll be a plus. And, yeah, it. It. It makes sense. And it would do it because it was just.
Jennifer:
Yeah, it's right. It connect. There's that connection. Yeah, but it's.
Steph:
It's.
Jennifer:
I mean, I think one of the points we've made is that there's this connection that you can have with people who have these similar experiences and that. That's where that disconnect is with people back home sometimes, because they. They just don't understand. You can't talk with them the same way as you can with someone else who's had these experiences. So, yeah, like, that's a struggle, but that's also so beautiful when you find. Whether it's a friend or. Or whatever. More.
Steph:
Yeah.
Jennifer:
Who has these experiences and you can truly connect to over these things.
Steph:
Yeah. Agreed. Agreed, agreed. Any final thoughts on any of this?
Jennifer:
On all the many things? I think we've really hit all the main points. I mean, the poem is one of losing oneself to find oneself and questioning everything about the way you grew up and becoming who you're meant to be. And for the people listening, as we've said before, going abroad is going to change so much. But I can't imagine any other way of living. Every moment I was home, I was dreaming of being abroad. And maybe some people don't feel that strongly about it, but when you have this experience, you challenge yourself to go beyond, beyond your walls that have been around you for your whole life. The challenges will be real, but the rewards are as well.