Angie:
Hi, my name is Angela. I'm originally German, but I also lived in other countries in Europe, and I'm finally now here in Shanghai to study Mandarin.
Steph:
Thank you, Angie, for coming out today to geek out about languages. We are primarily going to talk about your learning Chinese, but let's go back a little bit and talk about how many languages you do know. So how many languages?
Angie:
That's a good question. Yeah. So originally I'm German, so for sure I speak German. I learned in school. My first foreign language was English. Then I learned Latin and my last language in school was French, but to be honest, I don't remember anything in French except I think, yeah, something like Tour Etre Pompidou. So just the names. And after school I did evening classes in Spanish, but this was just to orient myself a little bit when I'm a tourist in some Spanish countries. Yeah. Finally I'm here in Shanghai to study Mandarin since last September, and I'm pretty fine with it.
Steph:
Okay. When you were learning Latin, was it just in the written form or were you guys actually.
Angie:
Yeah. So basically when you learn Latin in school, Latin is not a spoken language. So basically you have text, you translate. But we also had to speak the language for sure. But it's. Yeah, it's more like brickstones, you know, you have to just pluck and play everything and that's it. So we learned for sure how to speak it. We also had to learn by heart some texts.
Steph:
You came to China in September 2017 and you started learning Chinese. How did you go about learning Chinese?
Angie:
So basically I learned already two years before I came to China, Mandarin in evening classes. But it was just like. Like four or five months, even with breaks. And when it was clear that I will come to Shanghai, a friend recommended a university to me because he said you need to know the characters as well to understand the language and to read something when you're in public. And that was also then that I took the decision to study here at the university kind of full time because it's only half a day. But when you come home and you need to learn the vocabulary, look at the text and so on, it's probably full time, to be honest.
Steph:
So how many hours a day is it?
Angie:
So the class is how many hours? It's three, one half. I'm sorry, you can cap this. So basically the class, we have four lessons per day, which are 45 minutes. So we have around three hours net for studying. Yeah. And then when you come home, you can. Yeah, you can count, I think, like two Hours to repeat the stuff you learned at the day and also to prepare the next day.
Steph:
Sure, sure, sure. And what kinds of classes are they?
Angie:
Yeah. So we have three subjects in school. So we have intensive reading and writing is the first one. The second one is speaking. And the third one, really less from. From a time perspective, is listening. But to be honest, listening is the hardest part of it. And I, not only me, but also my other students, we. We are really struggling with that. Yeah.
Steph:
It's incredibly difficult.
Angie:
It's so difficult. Yeah. And even when we have. We figured out now in. In our texts, we hear we have three voices or three people talking. And the last one, the third one, it's a man. We all have so many problems to understand him.
Steph:
Embarrassing moment.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
Are you ready for this?
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
So the first time I. The first few chapters of my HSK1 book, when I was doing the listening, I thought it was three people in a conversation, but it was two people. And then the narrator asking the question. But it was so hard for me to understand the words that they were saying that I. I thought they were all talking to each other. Like that's how hard the listening was.
Angie:
So difficult and so complicated sometimes. And I have to say, now I'm in the second semester. And in the second semester, the teacher, she's pretty good because she's going with us through the text. She's stopping during the dialogues and the conversations and is asking us, did you understand that? What do you hear? Can you repeat it? And this is really, really good. I like it. But it's still. We only have two hours with her, so. And it's so like three hours in total net and it's in per week. And it's so hard sometimes to understand it. Yeah.
Steph:
Which do you find do you practice the most outside of class, like vocabulary or the listening or reading or.
Angie:
I think the most outside of class, I do the reading and writing because this is also the hardest part. And it's also. It's reflected in the other books. So in speaking and in listening, you have also the hanses of the characters. There is no longer Pinyin, for example, in the listening book. In the speaking book, we still have Pinyin, but. Yeah. If you don't know the characters, you have no chance.
Steph:
Yeah, for sure. Wow. And did you come in at the. Because you already had some. Because you took the night classes before, did you come in above the beginning level or did you start at the beginning? Where did you start?
Angie:
No, So I have to say I started these evening or night classes to get A glimpse of China because I think it's language is an important part of a culture in every country.
Steph:
Definitely.
Angie:
And when I, when I came here, I. I did like a pre exam or it was just like a talking to a teacher here. And when I registered and she was just showing me like, hey, do you think what this would do? Can you imagine what this means? And I was like, yeah, this means maybe Niha and something like this. And then she was like, okay, you go in the, in the intermediate or so. But it was, it was. I'm not sure if it is intermediate, to be honest, but it was more like we had. In the first semester we had four classes and two were most of the time doing pinging and the others had Hansen to even continue studying. And I was in the one with Hansen, which had the other effect that I was not in the Tai Ti. So housewife class. I was with all these young 18 year old, just school finishers who came to Shanghai to have a nice time here and also learn a little bit Chinese to get a certificate and then go back home.
Steph:
Yep. For those listeners that are not in China, can you explain the Tai Tai phrase?
Angie:
So Tai Tai means basically housewife. But yeah, when, when you live in China, you take over some of the words they use here, like tai tai I and yeah, also lao, wai or weiguo. And this somehow is also reflected then in the words you say. So basically Tai ties are the housewives here, also foreigner housewives. And yeah, how to. Tai ties are the housewives here, Especially also foreigners housewives who also, I have to say, have difficult times sometimes to find something to do and to manage their life here.
Steph:
Yeah, it can be an isolating experience if you don't have a reason for being here.
Angie:
Yes, definitely. And it's. It's very hard, I think to. If you. Especially if you don't have children to connect with other people. But there's all, especially in Shanghai, I think there are lots of communities you can join. So basically maybe there's from your country a club which is the most of the part, which is like an entry. Yeah. To connect with people. But it also helps sometimes to go to the church to find people with the same interest like books, sports and so on. So if you want to connect, it's easy.
Steph:
It's very easy. It's very easy in Shanghai. It's ridiculously easy sometimes. For the listeners from the U.S. the meetups.com is. This is the one city that I've seen it used the most in the world.
Angie:
Yeah, yeah.
Steph:
I Don't even remember it being as popular in the U.S. which I think is where it started. But it's ridiculous. You can literally find any activity through that, at least in Shanghai. I'm not sure about other Chinese cities at this point, but let's get back to language. So language is one of those ways that you can meet people, and that's.
Angie:
Some of the things they're doing.
Steph:
So you started in September, and so do they have, like, different levels of the class? Are there. Are they split up by HSK levels or a different way?
Angie:
I think they are not orientated by hsk. They have the books they follow. And they have different classes, like 1, 2, 3, 4, and so on. And there's also, like, beginner, intermediate, professional level. What they did with us, because we were in the. Yeah. I would say from these four classes we had. And the one who just learned the pinyin and the others more Hansa. They took us from class one directly to class three. Yeah. And they explained to us that in class two, it's not so difficult. Like in class three. And a lot of people who did not pass the exam or want to have it a little bit more. Yeah. Slower. They can do the Class 2, but they put us immediately after the holidays. They put us in class three. So lots of my classmates, I was within. In first semester. I'm now within the second semester. Yeah.
Steph:
Okay.
Angie:
So what is.
Steph:
Is the highest one that they have?
Angie:
I'm not sure. I think it must be like five or six. Yeah, yeah. So I know. I know one. One guy from Frankfurt. So I'm originally from Frankfurt in Germany. And he is Chinese. He grew up in Frankfurt as well, and he came here to study. And I think he's in class five. Wow. Yeah. But he also passed already. HSK five. Wow.
Steph:
Which I've heard about and sounds slightly daunting. There is an essay in five. Isn't there, like a written essay that I have?
Angie:
I think so. Yeah. Yeah. And he also told me after HSK 5, if you want to do 6 or 7. I'm not sure if 7 exists, to be honest.
Steph:
I think it's 6.
Angie:
Yeah. So you have to. It goes more into the poems, like old poems, old writings and so on. You have to be more into this literature thing and historic, ancient literature.
Steph:
Right, right, right. What are your feelings on Pinyin? Because a lot of people have mixed feelings. Some people think it's very useful steps. Some people think it's too much of.
Angie:
A crutch, to be honest. I think when you have Pinyin and Hanzi you learn two languages already. So when. When you have your vocabulary cards, you see the Hanzi, and on the other side, you have the pinyin and the translation into your language. So I think it was like 30, 40 years ago before Pinyin. It was easier to learn Chinese than. Because they had no pinyin. And you just had to learn the Hanzi and how to speak it. Yeah, I think so. It's sometimes too complicated.
Steph:
I agree with you, but I don't know. But some days when I hit characters that are exactly the same, I'm glad the pinyin's there, because then that can kind of help me. But then I hit a word. I don't even remember what it is right now, but I hit a word in HSK2 and had the same character, same pinion, different tones. I don't remember exactly what that was, but.
Angie:
Something like jun also.
Steph:
I don't. It'll come to me afterwards, I'm sure.
Angie:
Yeah, it's. I think pinyin heads are helps at the beginning, but if you really continue, the hans is. Is helping you more than the Pingyu.
Steph:
Yeah. Oh, here's my question. I haven't done anything with it, but early on, when I was just gathering tons of resources, I found this giant list of sound components. Do they talk about this in the classes at all?
Angie:
What exactly do you mean with sound components?
Steph:
Within some of the characters, within the words, there are radicals that tell you, this is the sound of this part of this syllable. I probably should have.
Angie:
You mean. You mean like they put the pingyin and then they do the one the next?
Steph:
In the word itself in the hanza, there's a radical in there that's supposed to be a sound component.
Angie:
No, I know. To be honest, I never heard of that. But it could also be that the teacher told us already, and I did not recognize it. This can also happen.
Steph:
Honestly. I found list. I printed it up. It's like 15 pages long.
Angie:
Oh, okay. And it.
Steph:
Every time I am moving my books around, I look at it and I think, nope, not ready yet. Because it's just. I think it helps if you know the character first.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
And then you can start looking for it in the word.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
But for me, my vocabulary is still so tiny that it's. It's an extra layer to learn before that.
Angie:
An extra layer is. Is a good explanation for this, I think, because I sometimes read texts in hansa.
Steph:
Yeah.
Angie:
And I know what it means in German or in English. The word. But I don't know how to say it. Yeah. I don't know how to say It. And then our teacher says, can you please. Can you please read? And then you read it and you're like, yeah, I know that this means bicycle, but I don't know how to say it. Yeah, it's. So this is sometimes really. Yeah. Critical.
Steph:
No, I. I agree with you completely. That's why I want to know those sound components, because then it's not all of them. Supposedly, it's only 80% of the sounds, but that's 80% more than what I have now.
Angie:
Yeah, but it looks.
Steph:
Oh, I can send you the link later. But it looks so complicated. It's like another round of flashcards.
Angie:
Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Steph:
But if it's. If it's. If it's real, if it's true, that would really help with not having to memorize it so much as recognize that sound component and then know how to say it.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
And then just worry about the meaning.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
And how to write it and all that stuff. But I don't know, because, like I said, I can't. It's way above where I am right now. It's just sitting on the shelf of things I can't handle.
Angie:
Yeah, I am.
Steph:
I grabbed all these resources because I started to play with writing of the Hansa characters, too. So I bought all these books on origin, and then you could see how the character changes throughout time. And it was such a beautiful distraction.
Angie:
Yeah, but, you know, even if it's a beautiful distraction, it's nothing that will be asked in the test.
Steph:
Exactly. And it doesn't help me do anything in the real world at all. And it doesn't help me read. It just is like, I can stare at a character and go, I remember what that used to look like, but I can't communicate at all.
Angie:
Yeah, that's always a problem.
Steph:
So I put them over there for now. For now. Is there any part of the language that you're the most curious or most interested in, or when it's gone over in class, you're the most excited to learn?
Angie:
I think the more the. The class I'm most excited about is speaking because. Yeah, it really helps you to be less shy in your daily life to communicate with Chinese. It even helps you also to listen to speak everything. And it also helps a lot with interaction because I think we don't only learn via translating texts, listening to dialogues, but you learn a lot more when you interact. So we sometimes also have to play. Just set up something and go in front and play for the others, explain the other something, introduce something to the others. And this Also is the connection between the body and your brain, which is, for me, the most interesting part. Definitely. Yeah.
Steph:
When you get that context built into it, it doesn't leave you then.
Angie:
Yeah, exactly. It's just when you say things like, I go somewhere and you really go. Yeah. So this is something. When our ie is coming in the morning, I tell like, jin Lai, Jin Lai. So come in, come in. Yeah. So this also helps to learn vocabulary and yet to somehow make it more firm in your brain. Yeah.
Steph:
Right. Okay. So I find this really interesting because we were talking about introversion and extroversion before we started recording. And you're most interested in speaking. I'm most interested in writing, but I consider myself an extrovert. And you said you were an introvert.
Angie:
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Steph:
So it's like, I wonder if that's. I wonder if that's a bigger trend where introverts are more interested in speaking the language and extroverts are more interested in writing the language.
Angie:
Yeah. Because the hurdle is higher, I think, for me to really go somewhere, speak. So I know when I'm in this safe area in the class. I can try. I really can try. It's not okay even if I'm in daily life and I say instead, I want to have a strawberry. I want to have a banana. That's not the problem. I will not die from it. Yeah. But at the end, it's really a safe place, a safe environment. But I can really try and really say, okay, my hurdle is. Is going down, and so I can do this while in writing. I know I can always do this. Maybe it's the other way around because you are more extrovert to say, I go to people, I have no problems to talk to them. But the writing is for you because you have to sit silent somewhere and.
Steph:
Have to stop moving around.
Angie:
Yeah. Yeah. And this is maybe more the thing that you say, okay, I have to really force myself to do this. Yeah.
Steph:
Oh, my gosh. That's a really good point. Because at the beginning, before. Yeah. I used to walk around and like. Like on camera, like, try to identify words and things. And so I was even using the movement to try to. To learn the language because I'm so restless. Oh, my God.
Angie:
That's a really good point. Yeah. Yeah.
Steph:
The hurdle is definitely higher. Oh, my goodness. So how far in the classes do you want to go?
Angie:
Good question. To be honest, we learned. So I learned in the last year a lot of words, a lot of grammar, and at the moment, I'm more thinking of repeating this, training it, then go to another class because it's so much stuff we learned. We have so much information and everything that I say. Okay. I rather want to repeat it and want to. Yeah. Firm or manifest this a little bit more to really have it, feel comfortable with it.
Steph:
Gotcha.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
Are you tempted at all to do a one on one tutor at any point?
Angie:
Yeah, I'm. I'm pretty lucky. I have a friend, she's Chinese, but she works in Europe. But she's coming now for half a year to. Yeah. To work in Shanghai. So I nailed her already that she has to speak once per week Mandarin with me definitely. To train this. Yeah. Fantastic. Yeah. Yeah.
Steph:
I heard something the other day actually where somebody was talking about not so much using the word fluent because it's such a slippery thing to pin down. What does fluent mean? It's so different for different people. But they were saying when you get to the point, I think it was Steve Kaufman who I'm obsessed with on YouTube. He talks about languages a lot. Yeah. He's also fluent in ridiculous amount of languages. Ridiculous being good. Anyway, he talks about getting to the point in a language where you can in the language maneuver and find out other things about the language. Do you know where you can ask for things, have things defined to you all within the language?
Angie:
Yeah. Two days ago in the evening, I had a really interesting situation. I went out with my husband to a bar and normally I drink wine there, but I said, oh no, I want to have a sparkling wine today. So I was looking at the menu and I saw the sparkling wine and then I saw. Okay, I saw the Chinese characters and then I said, okay, it says like air back alcohol.
Steph:
Yeah.
Angie:
And then I asked the waiter, I said, is it Qi Bao Joe? And she was like, yeah, yeah. And I was like, ah, interesting. So sparkling wine is airbag alcohol, which. Which makes sense, to be honest. It does. It totally makes sense. And this was for me, something that's.
Steph:
Like, wow, the bag part is a little bit weird.
Angie:
Yeah. Or like, like it should like say something like bubble bubble or something. I think it's also used. But it was. So for me, it was really a moment. I said, yes. Okay.
Steph:
Yeah.
Angie:
I, I really try to understand it. And the good thing is also that the, the waiters also help us. Then when I asked. And that's really, really nice to find this out.
Steph:
That is really good. That's your air guy. That's so.
Angie:
Oh, right.
Steph:
The question, what is the thing you want to do the most in the language? I know it's speaking, but to who? About what? Like, what is the long term goal in, in Chinese?
Angie:
To be honest, to communicate and to make jokes.
Steph:
Oh, that's hard. Humor.
Angie:
Yeah, yeah, humor is hard, but it's also about language comparison as well. So it's, it's also when, when we have guests here, I also explain them that one of the questions you are asked very early is, did you eat? Yeah, yeah. And it's always like people are thinking, hey, why do they ask me if I eat already? Why do they do this?
Steph:
They're gonna feed you.
Angie:
Yeah, yeah. And when you explain them about the cultural background and everything, then it's. It's pretty fine to get this. And I think in German, in English, in different languages, you have things like this. And you can also sometimes make jokes about it, which are not bad, but just like, hey, I know your culture, I know your language. I think that's it.
Steph:
I've heard that comedians are some of the easiest listening materials to use to learn the language because they exaggerate the sounds and the intonation is very easy to understand. Have you started to listen to any Chinese comedians?
Angie:
No, not so far, to be honest, because I think I'm not at that level so far. But I think dealing with friends here, so Chinese and German, British, foreigners at all, I think you can just make some little jokes about things. Yeah. Even about, even about behavior. Behavior sometimes is, I think, a big field you can talk about and make jokes or just get to know each other.
Steph:
That is definitely one of the things that I appreciate about being in China is the sense of humor. Even with a tiny amount of language. Feels like it's pretty easy to convey sometimes there are differences, but I feel like they're very quick to laugh and they're very quick to joke and it's.
Angie:
Yeah. Then I also have to say a lot of people in the western countries say, like, yeah, Asian people, they laugh because they don't know the answer and they just want to hide it. But I don't think so.
Steph:
That could be it sometimes, but I feel like a lot of times they get the joke that's happening.
Angie:
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And it's also, I really like to go here with public transportation because the people, they are not robots. They are not sitting there watching the phone, some films or something, but they communicate with each other and they also, they laugh a lot. They laugh so much. And I was in February, I was in Korea, in Seoul, and to be honest, I felt like, hey, nobody here is laughing. And I'm not sure. To be honest, I'm not sure if I just was there during a bad time or so, but I felt more that in China, people are laughing. Children can be so free here.
Steph:
Yes.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
Oh, my gosh.
Angie:
Yeah. So. And. And they're really. They're happy and everything. So I. I really, really like this. This sense of culture.
Steph:
Yeah.
Angie:
Chinese culture.
Steph:
Yeah. Yeah. I. I haven't been to Korea, but I have lived in Japan, and it's a much more reserved. I don't think there are any lessons. Happy necessarily. I just think that they display it in a different way.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
And I'm. I. I like walking down the street and hearing people just bursting out in laughter.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
And just. Just like smiling at each other or like running around or just being goofy. I love that.
Angie:
Yeah. Yeah.
Steph:
And that's much more my style. Like, Japan was beautiful. The food was great. There's so many good things about it. But it's very quiet. Like, very quiet, organized place. And I'm not an organized person in. In my communication. I'm very loud and expressive, and I found myself just kind of like putting my hand in my mouth a lot of times when I was really excited because I'm like, oh, yeah, look at that thing.
Angie:
I know. I know what you mean. Yeah. Yeah.
Steph:
So I find that it just fits better.
Angie:
And you can be more curious in China. You can just. If you see something, you just go and watch.
Steph:
Yeah.
Angie:
And. Yeah. And people would not feel ashamed of it. Or so I have to say for sure. Not if you see. If you see a car accident or so, you don't go there and watch this. I don't mean. But if you just see something curious and then you just go there and check and people do this, it's not a problem here at all.
Steph:
Not at all. There's a gentleman. I think I've seen him a few times right outside of people's park where he. I keep saying draw. He writes the Hansa characters on the ground. I'm sure he's writing something poetic, but it's just giant. Like, each character is maybe in meters. How would you. How big do you think that is? Like.
Angie:
Yeah, 70 centimeters.
Steph:
70 centimeters.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
And that's like the. The height of the.
Angie:
Of the character.
Steph:
And he's just doing that. And in this, it's not even paint because it evaporates it.
Angie:
Yeah. Yeah.
Steph:
And so he's right. And I just. I could walk up and just stare at him.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
As he's doing it. And I could just kind of practice the struck order with him. No big deal. A lot of other people were looking at him, and a lot of people were just walking by.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
But it was just so cool to watch. And in some other places, I'd be like, okay, look, and then walk away. But I could just stare at him as he's doing that. And I'm like, oh, my God. Someday, as much as speaking isn't my goal, someday I want to go back to him and, like, ask him about what he's doing. Why is he doing this, all this kind of stuff? Because I just. I'm fascinated by the characters.
Angie:
That's so cool.
Steph:
Yeah, but he's so. It's just on the shopping side of where the mall is. I don't even know the name of that one.
Angie:
The Raffle City, maybe. Yeah. Yeah.
Steph:
But there's, like, a coffee shop and I think, like, a food stand where they're selling the squid, the grilled squid. And he's right out there.
Angie:
Oh, okay.
Steph:
And just on the ground with the giant brush.
Angie:
It's so amazing. It's so, so, so cool.
Steph:
Okay, so, Angie, you have a YouTube channel on books, which is ironic because we're in a bookstore. We're recording this right now. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Angie:
Yeah. So basically, I don't remember a time in my life where I did not read books. And since I was a child, I am fascinated by books because I think they bring us to another world. They really let us dream. And, yeah, I cannot remember to. I cannot think of living without books, to be honest. When I came here to China, I had a little bit more time than I had before while I was working the full day. And then the idea came to me to talk about books. It came, not to me, out of a sudden. A friend of mine, she said to me, hey, Angie, you always recommend books to me, which fit perfect to my situation, and why don't you talk about it? So I said, okay, I think of it. And I was also thinking of doing a blog or so, but then I said, okay, do I really want to read about a book I want to read? Yeah. So, yeah. So I was more like, okay, if I would be the consumer, what do I. What do I want to see? So. And I have to say, not I'm not only addicted by books, but also movies. So I put these two hobbies together and said, okay, I will do videos on a YouTube channel. And, yeah, I was really thinking of, okay, what do I like? What do I not like? And so I just started, I think, in February So for four, five months ago. Yeah, yeah. Just this year. And yeah, I'm talking about books I like and I created. So it's called Three of Books. So I talk in every video I talk about three books. And I have just different categories. So the first category is always books which bring you to another world. So really deep dive into historical can be everything, to be honest. But really more the bigger books you have. Second one is books which are easy to read sometimes. You know this, you have a stressful daily life, you really want to relax and you want to have a happy end in a book and so on. So there's the second and the third one, which I think addicts most of the people is travel and outdoor books. So I talk about books from people who did the Appalachian Trail or climbed mountains. I even had a book about twins who cycled from Berlin to Shanghai. Oh my God, Germans. Yeah. So also pretty cool. And this is more what I'm talking about. And as I'm in Shanghai, I said, okay, I can even do more than talking about books. I visit bookstores and make videos of it. So and for sure, as I have the three always also in the title, I said, okay, I have in each video I have three bookstores. So basically in Shanghai, I always have three bookstores. For Korea, I just have two. And also a little bit of sightseeing to see something from the country as well. Yeah. So that's what I'm doing at the moment. Yeah.
Steph:
The reason why I asked you about your channel one, because it's awesome. Two, tying this back to the Chinese language. Do you want to read the kinds of books you like in Chinese as well?
Angie:
Good question. I think I'm not so far to read them, but what I did as I visited some bookstores for sure. I also look at the books and I bought some children's books where you have also Hanse and pinyin. And I bought two books. One is Heidi, so it's a Swiss book, to be honest. The other ones are the fairy tales of Grimm. So it's a German. And so. And I have to say these books are really, really nice. Also illustrations in them and what I like a lot is they explain the characters before the. The whole story starts. So you have. For Heidi, you have Heidi to a little bit explained the grandfather explained friends and. And everything. Okay. So this. This is really, really nice. And it's. It also. I'm not sure if it's just because maybe it's not familiar to Chinese children, but it's a nice idea to have this in front of the book.
Steph:
I wonder if it's for the. I'm thinking about this now because I've heard this being done in some western movies that come over to Asia too, where they have to add a little bit at the beginning to kind of set the tone. I wonder for the children's books if that's for the parents, because I always envision parents, like, have teenage voices, so I wonder if that's for the parents to get them into character.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
Or if it's for the children.
Angie:
Yeah, I think for both. Interesting. So I will do this. But what I also started, I have to say, because I'm reading and I'm also presenting the books in German. I started to read English books here because I never felt so comfortable to read books in another language than my mother tongue. But I feel now better and better reading them. And I sometimes even see some words I say, okay, maybe I have to translate this. But you. Even your whole vocabulary grows. So that's. That's pretty nice.
Steph:
Despite the faculty. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.
Angie:
5.
Steph:
That you had five languages at your disposal. Four, if you take away French, four languages at your disposal before studying Chinese, but you didn't read in any of those languages. Well, you read in your first language and then the other one. Talking about the languages that you knew before you studied China for the first time.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
Did studying those languages help you study Chinese at all?
Angie:
I don't think so.
Steph:
At all. At all. Really.
Angie:
It's. No. Because learning another language which is not similar or has any interfaces between the languages you learned so far is so difficult. And you cannot. You cannot compare it because just when you see, like German, English, Latin, French, Spanish, just think of that. You have. Between the words, you have space in Mandarin, you have everything in one line. There's no space. There's no space. For example, you have to train yourself just to go with these Hanse or with the words. And this is totally different from what we have in Europe or in the Western world. And yeah, it's completely different. Definitely. The only thing which is a little bit similar is like this subject, verb, object, structure. But I think this is really. That's it.
Steph:
Yeah.
Angie:
Yeah. And then you just have these little. We call it bridges in German, like our teacher says, as like Louis Vuitton. Location before verb. Yeah. And so on. And you really try to make this work somehow. And it's. Sometimes it's so hard and so difficult because you have no interfaces with your languages.
Steph:
I think that is probably the best way I've Heard it talked about is interfaces. It's so true. That's such a huge shift from Alphabet that we use in Romance languages over to the Hanza characters. It's such a huge shift in some way. I'm very jealous of the Japanese and Korean students that come over and learn Chinese because they use Hansa characters to some extent.
Angie:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Steph:
Growing up. So they at least are familiar with them before they start.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
Learning language.
Angie:
I think even my Thai students, I have. We have two girls from Thailand. I think for them, it's sometimes also easier because Thai language is so Just when I. When I see it, I think like, oh, my gosh, how can somebody. Yeah. Write it? But I think it's. It's also because it's about tone. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, you're right. This is also it. It's tones. And for us. For us, it's words. It doesn't matter if you say like you have. In English, it's always like, in British English, it's aunt. And in American English, it's And. Yeah. And so on. But at the end when you see the word, you know what it means. Yeah. And it's completely different to the tones.
Steph:
Yeah, no, that's true. That's true. I hadn't thought about that connection with the tonal languages for sure. I wonder, because Vietnamese is tonal, but they actually switched over, thanks to a French monk.
Angie:
Remember correctly, to two words to Roman numeral. Yes. And Arabic.
Steph:
Thank you.
Angie:
No, it's Arabic. Numerous. Arabic. Numerous. Roman.
Steph:
Roman script.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
So they switched over to the Roman script. But they use markers at the top to denote the tones. So I wonder if they also have an easier time coming in because of the sounds of the language. They must.
Angie:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Steph:
Because we do use tones, but it's more for emphasis.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
And I think that's one of the things that confused me when I was listening to my materials for HSK is there were also tones for emphasis in addition to the tones for the words. And I was like. But the. No, stop. It was just. I'm trying to pick up emotion and.
Angie:
Meaning at the same time. No, no, it's completely different. It's also. Yeah. What I always do is I ask something and at the end of a sentence, you have to say. In some parts you have to say ma. Yes. And sometimes I don't do it. I just like in our language, at the end of a question, you just go up with a tone. And here you don't do this. But I still do it because. And then they Realize already. Okay. She's asking me a question so that it's sometimes so weird for me.
Steph:
I haven't studied the grammar too much yet. I've skipped over far too much of it in HSK2. But the MA law, there's all these. I feel like they're extra words, but I know they're not and I don't understand why they're there yet. Yeah, I know that's coming. And I need to focus on them because they're there in every sentence. There's a ba, ma, or la. I mean, I know ma is like.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
There's an ah.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
Just an a that looks like little.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
Yeah.
Angie:
A friend of mine just told me, like Chinese one want to hear two tones. So if you have just something with one tone, you just add something like. Oh, that makes sense. I think it's like this.
Steph:
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
Although it. Does it make sense that there's one syllable words then.
Angie:
Yeah. I think that comes. That that's historic. Yeah.
Steph:
Oh, but that would make sense because I'm having problems. I want words to be together. And sometimes I am noticing when I'm listening that I'm thinking the word is one syllable with the first syllable of the next word together. I think that's a word when it's really that you may have just cracked problems.
Angie:
Thank you.
Steph:
I feel the need to talk about verb tenses because English, for Chinese speakers, English is tough to get the inflections with time. Right. And then you go to German.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
Which does German have cases? I don't even remember.
Angie:
Yay.
Steph:
Which is even more complex with verbs.
Angie:
Yeah. So how.
Steph:
How was switching over to simpler verbs in Chinese for you?
Angie:
I, I, to be honest, I, I still have problems with that because I want to explain something which was last year. But you know already what means last year or so. So this helps a lot, I think when you know all these words for last year, next year, last week, yesterday. Blah, blah. Yeah. So this helps a lot.
Steph:
Yeah.
Angie:
But it's still weird.
Steph:
Yeah.
Angie:
That you just have to add a little or do it or something. Yeah. And then. Then it's. It's past tense. And what is for me more difficult and. But my husband also said to me that's like in English. Yeah. They have of different tenses for when something is still continuing and also when something is in a stable environment. So this is for me a little like. Yeah, okay. Like for example, when discontinuing is there's a picture on the wall. Yeah. For sure. It Hangs there. For me, it just hangs there. But in Chinese, it's more like. Yeah, it's continuously hanging on this wall. And I was like, oh, gosh. Okay, I'm not. Maybe I'm wrong here now, but this is how I understood it. And it's for me. Like, for me, it doesn't make sense, but I just learn it and that's it. And I hope after a while, my brain also recognizes it.
Steph:
Can we give examples of this? Like, if you were to say, okay, in English, the painting is hanging on the wall in German, what would that be?
Angie:
Das bild hangt unbend.
Steph:
Okay. Are they Chinese? What would that be?
Angie:
I think it's a hua. Something with hua and. Oh, I don't know. I think our teacher explained it to us, so I'm not sure how it is. I need to look this up.
Steph:
To be honest, people told me the one thing about Chinese is the grammar is so simple, and I feel like they lied. Thank you for saying that. Because I was like, you guys lied. If inflection is the one thing that they were talking about, fine. But. But so many other things.
Angie:
So basically, everybody tells you, Chinese grammar is so simple. Yeah. It's not. It's not. Yeah. They lie. It's so hard. And you have. For each and every situation, you even don't have different grammar. You even have different vocabularies. Like, for example, to say the bag is full. Full is full. So. But when you're. When you ate enough and you say, I'm full.
Steph:
Yeah, yeah.
Angie:
It's. It's another vocabulary. Yeah, yeah. So this. This is something no one considers, I think.
Steph:
Right.
Angie:
Yeah. When telling you about learning Chinese.
Steph:
No. At all. And when I heard they use time words instead of inflections, I thought, oh, great. There'll be one time word for past, one time word for present, one for future. It'd be so simple.
Angie:
Right?
Steph:
That's the word.
Angie:
But I think even Chinese people, sometimes when they talk to each other, they have problems to understand.
Steph:
Yeah, yeah. For sure. But that's true in any language.
Angie:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Steph:
Talk to, like, grew up on the east coast of the US and then I lived on the west coast of the U.S. anybody in the middle and I. It takes us twice as long to speak because I'm talking too fast. They're using different vocabulary, and they're like.
Angie:
What I like more here is also, as. It is a tone language. You can also work with tones. So I think if you recognize that. But our teachers, when you. When you say them something and they want just to agree. So they do like.
Steph:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Angie:
So, and we also learned, I think some months ago, we had. In our vocabularies, we had ng. So. Yeah. And our teacher explained us they are different. So she was like, you know, there is like, which is not good. Then it's a, which is okay. And there's like, which is. Oh, fine. Nice to hear. Yeah. So this is one thing where you can. Where you can also communicate with people. Yeah. And sometimes think that, okay, maybe people don't understand that when you talk to a Westerner who has never been to China and he's talking to you and you're like. And he's like, what is this person doing there? Yeah. So this is also, I think, one part of the language which is very interesting. Yeah. For us, because you can just do, with these tones, you can just. Yeah. Say something. Yeah. Without saying something.
Steph:
And it's funny because those are the first things I pick up in any country are the sounds. And then maybe I'll pick up a little bit of the language. But those sounds.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
Those affirmation sounds or whatever, those are the things that are the easiest for me because I'm like, oh, that's a sound. I do Grammar.
Angie:
Yeah. Do you know the Chinese people say ah? Yeah. It's just like. Huh. Just something they. They say. Like, I think that's the one that.
Steph:
Just showed up in HSK3 for me. And it looks like little boxes, like.
Angie:
Two little boxes with the two little box.
Steph:
And the explanation makes no sense at all. But. And actually, now that I'm trying to look it up, it's not going to work. It's just the letter A. Oh, there it is. Is it that one?
Angie:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Steph:
I don't understand, like, their definition for this. For those of you that are listening, it's just the letter A. No tone.
Angie:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's nothing. There's just.
Steph:
It's like boxes and then the foo. And then something else. Oh, here's what it sounds like. Yeah. Exactly What Angie's doing here.
Angie:
It's more like ah.
Steph:
Yeah. Well, they're. They always exaggerate how long a sound is on this. Yeah, yeah. And their explanation is at the end of the sentence to express enthusiasm. But I keep seeing it at the beginning of a sentence.
Angie:
Yeah. That's also the thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or when you. When you see something and you don't know what it is and somebody explains it to you. Most of Chinese say ah. Did you recognize that?
Steph:
No, because I can never say Anything that they understand yet.
Angie:
Oh, okay. No, it's more. And then same with you. When, when or with me, when I'm standing there and somebody explains to me what it is and they're like, ah.
Steph:
And that sounds like something that I would actually say in English too. So maybe I just, if I've heard it, I, I've thought, oh, they've picked that up.
Angie:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it can be. Yeah, it can be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting.
Steph:
Yeah. So. So, okay, so what has been the hardest, the easiest part? Let's start with the positive part here. The easiest part of picking up any, any part of the language.
Angie:
The easiest Mandarin language.
Steph:
Yeah, Easiest or the most fun?
Angie:
There is no easy Mandarin.
Steph:
Okay, let's go with most interesting measure words. Yeah, I'm having a hate relationship with those.
Angie:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think every foreigner has a hate relationship with measure words.
Steph:
Yeah.
Angie:
And in our first semester our teacher also said, ah, you don't need to know all the measure words when you talk to other people, you just need gu. But yeah, but to be honest, as soon as you use measure words when you talk to other people, especially Chinese, they really recognize it and honor it. I have to that ah, this person knows more than ge. And so it really helps. Helps, I think. And yeah, you have to learn that.
Steph:
Yeah.
Angie:
To be honest, you just have to learn them and to. It's really a low hanging fruit. Yeah, yeah. But it, it really brings you closer to, to Chinese people.
Steph:
Yeah.
Angie:
Measure words. Yeah, definitely.
Steph:
It makes. Instead of just being vague, it's a specific.
Angie:
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. This is the, for me, this is the most interesting part. Measure words. Yeah. And they are in every exam. Measure words and every exam.
Steph:
Yeah, yeah, no, they're in every chapter of the ages and stuff that I'm doing too. Different ones for different things. This one's for clothing, this one's for food. This one's for, I don't even know the rest.
Angie:
It's even like long, long thin things. There's a measure word for. And yeah, it's. It really like this. Things with paper, things with, I don't know, family and all of this. So.
Steph:
But it's not like if you were to say one piece of paper or 1 meter of cloth. It's not like that. It's not a quantifiable.
Angie:
No, it's not. It's just you just use it. You cannot translate it to any other language, I think, or at least the languages I know. Yeah.
Steph:
But so what is it telling people when they use it? Like what information does it add to the communication. I think that's my main block is I can't.
Angie:
Yeah, I think that they know the group, as we said, the group like clothes and so on we are talking about. And maybe there comes again this Chinese people like two tones. So when you have so one is only one tone.
Steph:
Right.
Angie:
But when you see say like so one trouser. Yeah. Then it makes sense. Yeah. So maybe it's like this now.
Steph:
No, that makes a lot of sense. Also I've noticed even just the level that I'm at that a lot of words are the exactly the same sound. So maybe it helps them with that too if they know the category in addition to the sound and they can figure out what the heck you're talking about.
Angie:
Yeah, exactly.
Steph:
Because the number of like just in my vocabulary list for HSK2, the number of words that start with J or S or Z is gigantic. And the other ones.
Angie:
Yeah, definitely.
Steph:
And a lot of the same, same sounds over and over, which is nice because once you get the sounds down.
Angie:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Steph:
Great.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
But then understanding that it's this jaw, not that jaw.
Angie:
Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah.
Steph:
And the hardest part.
Angie:
Writing and Hansa. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Because some, some, some characters are so similar. For me, I'm not sure if this is because I'm left handed or I'm not a creative person, but some of them just look so similar that I don't know what I should. I should do with it. Yeah. And then I, I try when, when I'm walking around in Shanghai, I really see some signs and they're like, ah, it could be his or that and like or not. And it's sometimes really, really hard to have. Just when one line is different, it's a completely different word and meaning. Yeah, that's the most difficult. Yeah.
Steph:
I try to. In my flashcards, I'm trying to. When that comes up and it comes up often, I try to make a card of the two I'm confusing so I can stare at them like one that you go down that I think I finally get and then I confuse again is hundred and by. Sorry, hundred. Bye. That's the same thing. Yeah. So it's 100 and white.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
One of them has a line at the top and one of them is not.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
But the rest is identical.
Angie:
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Steph:
Exactly the same. So I confuse those. So I made a card with both of them and I just stare and I try to find the differences and now I remember the difference, but I, I forget which one is which?
Angie:
Yeah, I know.
Steph:
I know that those two. One of them is white and one of them is hundred, but I'm still not remembering which one, but I can spot the difference.
Angie:
Now, I'm not sure if I pronounce it correct, but I always say like, bai Jo. So white alcohol. So I know baiji.
Steph:
Is that white wine?
Angie:
No, white alcohol.
Steph:
Oh.
Angie:
What is white alcohol? I think it's bai, because I always.
Steph:
Say rice wine, isn't it?
Angie:
No, it's just like the Motown. So schnapps.
Steph:
Oh, okay, okay, okay, okay.
Angie:
This is white Alcomo. So by Joan. Know. And I always have. And this is really strange. Like ebay. Like ebay, the. The platform, you know, where you can buy things. Yeah, this is 100 for me. EBay.
Steph:
Yeah.
Angie:
But I'm not sure if I pronounce it correctly. So this is how I bridge it. It does sound by Joe and ebay. Yeah.
Steph:
Wait, what?
Angie:
Wait, I'm not sure if this is correct, to be honest, but this is my. My.
Steph:
How are those? Do they look similar? Is that. That the connection?
Angie:
So the bay is so by Joel. Is the white alcohol so white? Yeah. Yeah. And eBay is 100. So I buy things on eBay for 100.
Steph:
You're seeing them in a bigger context. That's actually really smart. I should probably put something next to it, like next to the white one, I think, because I don't have that much vocabulary. Maybe I could put a clothing next to it or something. And 100. I could put Kwai next to it or something. Yeah, no, that's a really good part.
Angie:
Yeah, it's.
Steph:
Maybe I've broken it down too small and it needs a bigger context. My gosh. Okay, then I figure. I figure with the tones and the. And the rhythm of the language as I'm listening, that's going to seep in some level. And eventually, at some point, I want to start shadowing and just kind of awkwardly talking with them because I've got the transcript and that's the only way that I can get the sounds down. I can't do individuals words or things, but it just. It feels too awkward or inauthentic. So I hope eventually after listening enough, it will seep in.
Angie:
Yeah, I am.
Steph:
Oh, but the confusion cards, they really help. Putting two words that you confuse.
Angie:
Definitely. Yeah. Yeah, that sounds really good.
Steph:
I mean, it expands because I have an entire box of flashcards. It expands how many you have, but I find it at least gets me to pause before assuming it's the wrong thing. I'll go, oh, wait, I. I often mess that up, but now I only have maybe 400 cards.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
So it's not too bad.
Angie:
That's a lot.
Steph:
It was HSK 1, 2 and part of 3 and the confusion cards.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
But as I go up to HSK3 and all of the cards that are going to come in there, it might get too big. So right now it's, you need another box. I think I need a bigger bow. But. But just making them and realizing, like, when I see the. Because I go hanza to pinyin or hansa to meaning, depending on what comes up in my brain first.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
So when I start looking at them after a few days and I see the hansa, sometimes the wrong word will come in and that's when I'll make the new font.
Angie:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Steph:
Because it's just. There's so many that look so similar.
Angie:
Yeah. I think that's sometimes really difficult to differentiate.
Steph:
And I want to read. So I can't even have them. Like if. When I read a sentence now and I can actually read the whole sentence, I dance around the room. The idea of reading an entire page or article or book feels about 10 years in the future. I'm like, to read all of that, understand the meaning of 90% of it just seems insane right now. But a goal.
Angie:
Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah.
Steph:
But yeah, no, there's so many things within the grammar that are different enough.
Angie:
It's so difficult sometimes. And you really think like, okay, what, what. What is this text telling me? Yeah. Because you get an overall, you have a. A glimpse of what's. What they are talking about. And then. But when you dig into details, then you're like, okay, what is it exactly? Saying what? Yeah, yeah, it will work.
Steph:
Exactly. Exactly. But it's a good point to say that even when they talk to themselves, there's confusion.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
There's dialects. There's. Well, in Shanghai, there's Shanghai and Mandarin.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
Can you hear the difference between the two? Good.
Angie:
No, me neither. No, I just hear that they speak Mandarin Chinese, something. Yeah. They don't speak our languages. This is what I hear, but I cannot hear.
Steph:
I'm told that Shanghai has more Z sounds and. And, yeah. Has more sound, but I can't.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
I just can't. I know it's different vocabulary too, but I can't pick it out, I think because the.
Angie:
I would say high Mandarin is from Beijing. I feel more comfortable when I go to Beijing to talk to people there because we are. We learn this, this kind of dialect. More or. Yeah, this Mandarin.
Steph:
Yeah.
Angie:
And when it comes here, I'm sometimes also like, okay, what. What am I learning here?
Steph:
To be fair, I had a friend who was in. She was in Beijing, I think, three or four years, and that's where she learned Chinese. She now lives in Hong Kong, but she was visiting, I think two months ago. And after I met up with her late in the day and the first thing she said to me was, oh, my God, they swallow all of their sounds. Like she had a hard time understanding. And she was completely fluent. She was doing everything in Chinese, but she was like, you know, I can't. I have to ask them to repeat so often because they're just swallowing so many of their sounds. I guess in Beijing, it's everything. Things are more articulated.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
And yeah. She was like, oh, my gosh. I was like, oh, thank goodness. Because I have. I have a hard enough time with the recording and then when I go out into the street, I'm just like.
Angie:
Oh, yeah, come on. But I think it's important to try it.
Steph:
Of course.
Angie:
Try it. And this also shows respect for the culture and that we are living here and try to understand everything.
Steph:
For sure. For sure, for sure. Although at my stage I'm using like part Chinese and part English, and I think that's almost more confusing than just pointing and.
Angie:
Yeah, whatever.
Steph:
But people are so good humored about it. They're really, really good about it. Yeah. What do you think might make it easier for someone coming in from a language with why do I still Blankian this to be just Roman script? Is that what.
Angie:
Yeah. Okay.
Steph:
What do you think would make it easier for people coming in with the romance script into Chinese? What would make it easier for them to learn Chinese?
Angie:
I think what is essential is just from the beginning to really dive into by learning, repeating, and going out, especially to have a language partner, especially in Shanghai. I have to say there are a lot of people, a lot of Chinese offering like language partnerships, that you talk to them in Mandarin and they answer you in English or you speak half an hour Mandarin, the other half hour English. So I think this is something you should really, really consider when you come here to learn the language and don't be shy, just do it.
Steph:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That beginning stage is so difficult.
Angie:
Yeah, it's.
Steph:
Yeah, it's just crazy. I feel like I could have spent a year just on the initial sounds and the initial care. I spent a lot of time on radicals, which may be good in the end, but right now I just kind of go, ah, I don't know.
Angie:
No. To be honest, before I came here, I already figured out with some Chinese colleagues I had in Europe that it's not so much about the. About the tones. It's also about the speed. Speed?
Steph:
Yes.
Angie:
Of talking.
Steph:
Yeah.
Angie:
So I said, okay, I understand the tones. I really. I can hear it. But it's also about the. Also measure words and speed of. Of what you. What you say. Yeah, yeah. And then it works better because then it's in the whole context and everybody understands what you at least want to say. Yeah. Even if you. If you say it wrong. Yeah. But people will understand it. Yeah.
Steph:
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Going back to the classroom for a second, it sounds like your classroom experience has been mostly very productive in helping you learn the language. What is the one thing you wish they would do differently? Or what is the one thing you wish they didn't do?
Angie:
That's a good question. So basically, I'm. When I came to the class after working several years in Europe, I felt like I'm pulled back to high school, sitting there, looking at the whiteboard and just doing stuff in a book. So also sitting together with much younger people, I would say, who just came from school, university or so. And yeah, for me, it was a completely change from working to studying again. And I think what. And what I don't like are these dictations. So we have a lot of dictations, so every week, especially in the reading and writing class, but also in the listening. So the teacher is telling us the word in Pinyin, and you have to write down the character. And this is what I really hate. And they. They just said it like one day before. They said, okay, we finished now this. This lesson and. Or this chapter. And then tomorrow I will ask you about these 30 vocabularies. And I have to say, so I learned. I'm not sure if this is still the. The current state, but. But normally your brain can only learn and remember 7 vocabularies per day and not 30. So this is something I didn't like. And. Yeah. What I think they can do different, I would have liked to just say, okay, every Tuesday we have a dictation, and we always do this lecture or this chapter. And this would be better. I think on the other side, it is essential to have these dictations because otherwise you won't learn it. So it's a. Yeah, it has both sides of the coin, you know, But I would have felt more comfortable if they just say, like, okay, look, you can learn the vocabulary and Every, like, as I said, once per week I will ask you this. Yeah, yeah.
Steph:
It's funny because. Because early on I had a friend recommend a reading series because one of my main goals is reading. And so she recommended a reading book. And I think after HSK3, I'm going to go back to it because it's really good in what it does, but it was way too high for my level at that time. But she said one of the things that propelled her in her learning was she would sit down with. In audio, in Chinese, in natural Chinese, not even learning material, and she would write the characters out as she was listening to it.
Angie:
Yeah, that's pretty hard. Yeah. I have to say. And it's incredibly hard. Yeah.
Steph:
Especially at that speed when you get to ones that have 13 strokes and that's just one character and one word.
Angie:
And you have to keep going.
Steph:
She said it took her a long time to start doing it and there was a lot of rewinding and things like that. But she said that was the thing that really helped her not confuse words a lot anymore was getting the, the feel of, of the words. And so it probably what they're trying to do when they're doing those dictation activities. But I agree with you. That's 30 in one day with one day's notice.
Angie:
Yeah, it's nothing. A lot. Yeah. Even two days notice doesn't help you.
Steph:
No.
Angie:
To be honest. And this is in, in German, we call it bulimia learning. So you just learn it and. Yeah, yeah. So yeah.
Steph:
And I, I'm not memorization.
Angie:
Yeah, I'm not a fan of this, to be honest.
Steph:
No, no. I mean, to some extent it is memorization, but you do need more time to stay.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
You don't want to memorize it and then it go, you know, be in your short term memory and go away in a day. You want to keep it there.
Angie:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.
Steph:
And you're using flashcards too.
Angie:
You showed me them before. Yes. Yeah, yeah, I'm using it. I'm not sure. I think they're originally from Japan. So you all on the podcast, you cannot see it, but it's pretty nice. It's like how to say a key.
Steph:
Yeah, I showed early on I had bigger ones, but early on I had some and I felt too restrained with the ring because they are small.
Angie:
They are so small. They fit in everywhere. And yeah, it's even set made in Japan, but you can even buy it at Muji, I think. And it's pretty easy. So if you want to learn vocabulary, I think it's good to write it down because you learn with your hand and yeah, you can always repeat, repeat, repeat. That's it. Otherwise you will not learn it.
Steph:
Have you used any digital tools to help you?
Angie:
No. I know some of my classmates, they have some apps where vocabulary is asked for, but I'm not a fan of. Of all these apps, not in general of apps, but I said, no, I want to have it the old school way. And it also works.
Steph:
Yeah, yeah, no, I know. It's funny because the things I do with my flashcard, the main method is Leitner box method. I didn't make it up. The Gen one. The last name of Leitner did. It's basically the time. The spaced repetition that they do in the app apps is based off of the system. It's just in a physical form.
Angie:
Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
Steph:
And I tried both and I learned much faster in the physical form.
Angie:
Yeah, it's.
Steph:
It's. As a person who loves technology.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
Struggle with this.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
But I want to learn the language, so I just do it. But it's just. It's so interesting that like you said, writing it yourself, Writing is always really. Yeah, really.
Angie:
In German, we say you learn via your hand, so you have to write it down. When you write it down, you learn it better.
Steph:
Right, right. Even with the ability like an Anki or other apps like that, Even the ability to pull in your own photo or your own picture that you think of when you're thinking of that word, Even putting that in a digital flashcard did not work. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was too sanitized for some reason.
Angie:
I don't know.
Steph:
It drives me crazy. I want to use an app. It's lighter, it's easier, it's. It's quicker to make.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
But it doesn't have like some of my handwriting with the characters. Like it's slanted, but I don't realize that. The first, like the line is slanted, but I don't realize that. So I write it straight and then as I'm reading it in the textbook, it's different than my flashcards. I have to go back and erase it and fix it. And then it looks ugly and it's just. But it's faster.
Angie:
Yeah, exactly.
Steph:
Yeah, yeah. Any final thoughts on your experience learning Chinese? China.
Angie:
I'm happy that I make this experience especially. I'm a person who is not so into languages. I'm more in analytics.
Steph:
I'm more orchestrating, which is ironic considering how many.
Angie:
Yeah. But I have to say, we had to learn. We had to learn three languages in school. Wow. So basically this was something I had to do. And to learn Spanish was more. When I'm on holidays that I can communicate at least a little bit. It. Yeah. To order a Coke or so and. Or ask for a direction. And learning Mandarin, such a really, totally different language, also made me learn a lot of. About myself. So I know, as I said, you.
Steph:
Know, there's a question coming there.
Angie:
But as I said, I know I'm not a fan of dictations. I like, Like, I really saw how our teachers learned with us. I found out what I liked from some of them. I found out what I don't like. So it's not only about learning a language. This is also learning about yourself. And this is also brought me to a point where I said, okay, fine. Yeah, I feel more confident now. And at least I have to say Mandarin is a language which is spoken by a lot of people in the world. It will always help you. Yeah. To understand the other Chinese people or even the culture. Yeah.
Steph:
I could not agree with you anymore on that. That was just.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
I thought I was just learning the language to get to the ability to read all these things. I thought learning about the culture and all of that would come after I could read fluently. And it's coming in.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
The whole way.
Angie:
Yeah, definitely.
Steph:
And learning about myself. And although I had taught languages for you a language for years, sticking with learning one this intensely for over a year.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
I've learned so much about my study habits. My lack of study habits.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
My. How I think what works, what doesn't work. I feel like it's changed how I plan my life a little bit too.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
Like it's just in learning to study this very, very different language. Have you noticed that how you approach learning anything else has changed?
Angie:
I'm not sure at the moment if I'm learning anything else than that. But what I can see after studying Chinese for 10 months, that. But I feel much more comfortable. Oh, so much. Sorry, I say it again because much more is such a German thing. No, no. You don't say much more comfortable. I don't in. In English say much. Really? Yeah.
Steph:
I mean, is it perfect grammar? I have no idea.
Angie:
But it said yeah, because I think that's more a German thing. So you normally see Germans saying this. Yeah. Okay. Okay, what. What I can say after 10 months studying Chinese, I feel so comfortable in dealing in China with different topics. From going out of the street, then maybe Also phoning with the Didi driver. Wow. Yeah, but it's really basic. But you. You really can see that you have a progress. And I also know people from the first semester. And when I hear them, you really feel like, okay, I know already some more words. I know more vocabulary. I can articulate myself different. And as I said, Stephanie and I were talking before, and I had a really nice, nice situation in the beauty shop, I would say. So I was talking with the girls there about manicure and pedicure and blah, blah. And after a while, because the English is also not so good, they were typing something into their phone and showed me the translation. The translation was. Your pronunciation is very standard. So I was a little bit confused what they mean with standard. But as they were smiling to me and were laughing and. But friendly laughing. Yeah. To me, I said, okay, maybe that's a compliment. So these are the little things which. Which happen here in Shanghai and which also make you laugh.
Steph:
Little things that make things. It's those little things that make us happy.
Angie:
Yeah.
Steph:
Add up to the big things.
Angie:
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Those little things.
Steph:
And languages is for huge.
Angie:
Yeah, yeah.
Steph:
I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Angie:
Definitely. Yeah.
Steph:
Oh, my goodness. Well, thank you so much. There's so much that I'm thinking about during what we've talked about during this chat. Thank you. Thank you.
Angie:
Oh, thank you. It was a pleasure.