Speaker 1: Welcome to the Flash Masters podcast. Flash Masters recognises and celebrates the best flash photography in the world through education, awards and community. To find out more and to join the Flash Masters community, visit flashmasters.co Here are your hosts, Helen Williams and Neil Redfern. 

Speaker 2: Hello there and welcome to episode 39 of the Flash Masters podcast with me, Helen Williams and me, Neil Redfern, and in today's episode, I am going to be quizzing Neil about all things regarding styled shoots. 

Speaker 3: Are you? This is new to me, surprise! But it's relevant though, isn't it? Because what have we done this week? 

Speaker 2: Gone to the pub. 

Speaker 3: Well, apart from that, we did do, or I did do. I think you can call it a styled shoot. We'll get into a bit more. I made a video for YouTube. We thought actually it is a good topic to talk about. So, yeah, good suggestion. 

Speaker 2: It is. So, before we get into that though, sort of what's been going on this week, Neil. 

Speaker 3: Well, the first thing I'd like to do is say a big hello to one of our listeners who we didn't know was a listener until last week. You described the story, Helen, because I know this massively made your day. 

Speaker 2: I suddenly felt like a celebrity. We've been spotted in a little Welsh fishing village of Conwy, but it is mega. 

Speaker 3: Conwy. On the tour Conwy. Sorry, Conwy And you're supposed to be the Welsh one, I know. 

Speaker 2: But yeah, although it's a little sort of fishing town, it does have a massive castle, Very impressive Anyway. So we were there for the day for my birthday And whilst we were, there And we'd love to say how old you are, if you want to. 

Speaker 3: It begins with a three. That's all we need to know. 

Speaker 2: I am the same age You're in your thirties. 

Speaker 3: That's all that anybody needs to know. 

Speaker 2: Only just Leave it at that. Leave it at that. 

Speaker 3: You're in your thirties. 

Speaker 2: I am in my thirties. Yeah, i was practically his fifties, so whoa. 

Speaker 3: I'm in my early. Well, whatever, we'll leave it there. But yeah, we were in Conwy for your birthday. 

Speaker 2: We were, and then, whilst we were enjoying, that was a sort of pub again. 

Speaker 3: Yeah, you were on brand. You were drinking your hand when this happened. I did have a drink in my hand On brand. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, as did you. We were enjoying the sunshine. 

Speaker 3: I was driving, i was on the other side, i was listening. 

Speaker 2: So, yeah, we were enjoying ourselves a nice drink, glorious sunshine, which is quite unusual for Wales. We were listening to this lovely folk band singing in Welsh And the next thing, you know, i was wandering over to try and find a spot to sit in the sun and Neil called me over and we had been spotted by fans of the podcast. 

Speaker 3: Well, fan, fan of the podcast Well okay, one guy who listens to the podcast, i think his girlfriend listened to it because she has to, because it happened to be in the car when he was listening to it. 

Speaker 2: But someone who we didn't know approached us and knew who we were. 

Speaker 3: So then, we want to start off by saying a big hello to Jack Hinds and his partner, the Natalia. So thank you, Jack, for coming up to us. You literally did make our day. It blew our minds to have someone come up to us who listens to the podcast. It was such a bizarre experience. So thank you, Jack. It was really nice to talk to you and I say thank you for making Helen's birthday. Yeah, you had a bigger impact on a day than I did. 

Speaker 2: Oh, not at all, but yeah, it was pretty cool It was very cool, yeah. 

Speaker 3: And also, jack has also been very, very kind and he's left us a review, since I don't know if you know this on Apple podcasts. 

Speaker 3: So thank you so much, Jack. And he said I'm a full time self-employed property photographer, no longer shooting weddings but still working with flash on a daily basis. I only listen to two podcasts Flash Masters and Diary of a CEO. So watch your back Stephen Bartlett! Never been a big podcast fan, but Neil and Helen have certainly changed my view on that. I look forward to hearing the latest episode every week. I find that self-employment can be oh, then it runs out. Sorry, I just don't see enough. But yeah, thank you very, very much, Jack. We really appreciate it. And just while we're on this, if you would like to leave us a review on Apple podcast, again, the t's and c's do apply, five stars only, please. If you want to leave us less than five stars, then please don't bother. Then we would be very, very grateful. Thank you, That would be amazing. 

Speaker 2: But yeah, Jack, you did make my day. Yeah, That was my little sort of like claim. No, is that a claim to fame? 

Speaker 3: Is it? Yeah, i think it counts. 

Speaker 2: Either way, I felt like a bit of a superstar. So yeah, thank you. 

Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you very much, Jack. 

Speaker 2: So yeah, I can't remember else we were going to talk about. Well, what else has gone on this week? 

Speaker 3: Well, you shot a wedding today and yesterday, so there's that. 

Speaker 2: Yes, that was quite busy. 

Speaker 3: So you had two weddings. How did they go? How was yesterday's? 

Speaker 2: I will say the weather at the moment in the UK is definitely working in our favour. 

Speaker 3: Is it just constant good weather? 

Speaker 2: I know Sunshine. Obviously now we're having very late sunsets and very late bridal portraits with, you know, generally tipsy couples at this time. They were both fantastic. They could not have been any more different. So yesterday's wedding, you know well, by UK standards quite a sizable wedding of 170 guests at a very popular venue. That was like full to the rafters And lots of them were Irish and had flown over from Ireland. They love a good party and a good drink And so, yeah, it was a good Crack. 

Speaker 2: Yes, good crack, good crowd, very full on bonkers from start to finish day. 

Speaker 3: Did they have a ceilidh? No, oh, is that Scottish? 

Speaker 2: Yes, actually, yeah, yeah. 

Speaker 3: That is Scottish. Yeah, ignore me, ignore me. Yeah, well done, ceilidh. Yeah, no, they didn't have a ceilidh dance it's  too late, say I'm sorry, I apologise, i shouldn't have said that. Carry on. 

Speaker 2: Oh well, this is going to be a reference that I don't understand, and now there's lots of people. 

Speaker 3: Please please let us know in the FlashFans community if you get the reference. And we'll not do a song that was not brought out in the past five years. 

Speaker 2: All right, granddad. 

Speaker 3: Anyway, he's had a bit of the pub. I only had one. 

Speaker 1: It's a big boy, pint, though. 

Speaker 2: You did. Yeah, that wasn't a shandy. 

Speaker 1: No, it wasn't. All pint of neck oil and yeah, we're ready to go. 

Speaker 2: I forgot what I was talking about. Yes, the Saturdays were doing like I said, you know lots of get very busy, very full on, really very, very beautiful. Both very beautiful, but for different reasons Other than today's wedding. It was only only shot for two hours, which, if you look at my website. 

Speaker 3: I hope you're contracted to shoot for two hours. I'm going on for a barbecue. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, i want to go to the pub tonight. I'm off. No, i don't. Usually I very, very rarely shoot anything other than a full day wedding. My website says that I don't, but I have met the couple previously and I've shot at the family weddings And when they approached it was very much like please, we really want you, we can't, we can't have anyone else to shoot our day. So, yeah, today's wedding had a grand total of nine people and a dog. 

Speaker 3: Wow, I've got to say I've never, ever, even in the weird times, ever shot a wedding with that few people. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, i've never done an elopment. 

Speaker 3: So that's really small. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, nine and a dog. So yeah, two gorgeous brides today, and I'll admit that I actually cried during the ceremony. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. I think what was really nice is when I spoke to you on the phone and I would say, oh, how did it go? The usual answer is something like yeah, it was all right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, i think it was okay, whereas when I asked you today, you said, to be honest, it couldn't have gone any better. I absolutely loved it. So for you that was like whoa, that is a really like good feeling. 

Speaker 2: Oh it was. It was one of those ceremonies that just gave you the feels. You know they were such a beautiful couple. You know, i said to ladies they've known each other for a very long time. They had a commitment ceremony 20 years ago where they exchanged drinks, but obviously marriage at that point wasn't legal. Obviously it's been legal for a little while but they finally decided. 

Speaker 3: But there's a civil partnership, wasn't it? Now you can actually get married. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. So there was no sort of form of legal sort of partnership between them both until today, despite being in a relationship for such a long time. And yeah, both women you know well one was in their 70s. 

Speaker 3: Oh, and they? That instantly makes you go oh, that's really. You know they're doing it for the right reasons. 

Speaker 2: They did not stop smiling, just from ear to ear grinning, and just the room radiated love, and both myself and the lady who was given the ceremony as well was just like. This hits the feels And, to be honest, I cried, I did, there was actual tears from both sides, the pictures aren't that bad. 

Speaker 3: I keep on telling you this. 

Speaker 2: Oh, it was just a beautiful, beautiful ceremony. I know, as wedding photographers there will be. You know, some days are brilliant, some days are more tough. There's lots of different factors in a wedding day that can affect how you feel about that wedding and how well you think that you did. 

Speaker 1: Yes. 

Speaker 2: But yeah, today was definitely one of those weddings that really just fills your heart and feeds your soul And, yeah, it was beautiful. That's really lovely Both beautiful, but completely polar opposite. 

Speaker 3: I say, wow, you talk about. So one day was a full on 12 plus hour wedding with 140, 150 people. 

Speaker 2: I think it went up to 170 at night. but yeah, champagne shots and sparklers and like full on all day long, Compared to today eight people. Yeah. 

Speaker 3: What a contrast in 24 hours. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. 

Speaker 3: And how was the dog? Because he was a big part of it 10% of the wedding was a dog. 

Speaker 2: Yes, i feel really bad. 

Speaker 3: I've forgotten the dog's name. What's his name? 

Speaker 2: It was a greyhound. Buddy, buddy, buddy the greyhound And he was absolutely gorgeous. And as soon as I went in to see the ladies before the ceremony I sort of knelt down to give him a little bit of fuss And he was just literally trying to crawl into my lap. So yeah although he's one of these tall, skinny dogs, he really enjoyed a good cuddle. 

Speaker 3: Did he have a role to play? Did he have a role to play? Any rings down the aisle? 

Speaker 2: No, but he did walk down the aisle both ways with his mums, so yeah, Lovely. Yeah, because they'd already had rings. They didn't exchange rings today. 

Speaker 3: OK, well, congratulations to both couples and Buddy as well. 

Speaker 2: Yes, buddy's mummies got married and it was beautiful, excellent. 

Speaker 3: Well done as well for shooting two weddings In this heat. We know that there are people who listen to this podcast around the world who would think it's cold to shoot weddings in like what? 22, 23 degrees. For us, though, that's pretty toasty. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. 

Speaker 3: So, yeah, well done for that, because it can be draining, especially two on the bounce regardless, but especially when it is really, really warm. 

Speaker 2: Yes, thank you very much, but I enjoyed both, so really. So let's get back to that. That's sort of been. most of my week has been shooting these weddings. Do you want to tell us a little bit more about what you got up to for your YouTube shoot? 

Speaker 3: Obviously, you know you very kindly filmed it for me. So I organise a shoot. I don't really know if you can call them style shoots Probably not, because what I'm doing for YouTube obviously is getting in contact with models, finding a good model and then just arranging a time. I have lots of dresses and then I'll give her a dress to wear And basically we just shoot. So it's not really a style shoot. 

Speaker 3: Two videos I made. One was, i say, a review. I didn't put the word review in the title because it's not when it comes to my videos. I don't get too techy about talking about, say, lenses and going into all the details of the weight, the size, the amount of aperture blades and all that sort of stuff. I find it boring as anything. My videos are always very much more practical. But it was about the new lens that I've just bought, which was a Sony 50mm 1.2 G Master. Yeah, because the reason I say it in the video, the reason I wanted that lens for a long time, is because it's 1.2. And I just love, especially when I'm shooting portraits not as much documentary, obviously, but for portraits I do love to shoot very, very wide apertures because I just love Volcker, i know you're the same. 

Speaker 3: I love shooting through things. I love shooting through things that are colorful and throwing the background out and all that sort of stuff. So I don't think that lens will ever come off 1.2. It will put it on there. 

Speaker 3: As I said in the video, why would you buy a 50mm 1.2 lens, which is not cheap, if you're gonna shoot it at F4, it's no point really. So, yeah, that's why I bought that. So that was one of the videos, and the other video which isn't out yet, that one I've just launched today. The other one is a comparison. That's your idea. So, thank you, you're welcome A comparison between taking the same shots, the same portraits, on a 35mm, 50mm, 85mm and a 1.3, 5mm lens. So that'd be a really interesting one actually. Obviously, you help with those again. So, thank you. And also thank you to Bex, who was the model who I hadn't worked with before, but she was brilliant, wasn't she? She was really really nice, she had a really good laugh And, yeah, i loved working with her. I'm sure I'll work with her again. 

Speaker 3: So, off the back of that, we thought oh, actually that's quite a good topic to discuss, like style shoots in general. Think before we get into the reasons that I do these shoots. Yes, let's talk about style shoots in general, because I think if you asked someone what a style shoot is, what would your definition be? What do you think they're talking about usually? 

Speaker 2: Well, generally, if a shoot has been styled, i usually think that there's some directional thought that's been given in particular to styling, such as selections of dresses. I usually see them as being or assuming, and from my own experience, it's quite stressful days with pretty models, pretty dresses and everything that you can throw at it to create the most stunning images that you possibly can. Generally well, for my personal experience, it could be quite stressful because you've got lots of other suppliers who are obviously wanting their products or their work showcased. I don't know if that was answering or if I was replying with what you wanted to hear there, neil. You're looking at me like no. 

Speaker 3: Well, i was thinking of going to say this. If you're not aware, a style shoot in the terms that we're talking about here is where you, as a photographer, would be involved in a collaborative shoot with lots of other wedding suppliers. That could be a venue, a wedding dress shop, a florist, makeup artist. I mean, there's no end, is it really, of how many people could be involved. And what tends to happen is you all come together on one particular day and all work together to produce work images, maybe video if you've got a videographer there as well, and then every supplier takes something away from that day and you all sort of share that together on your own social medias and everybody promotes each other. It's a bit one of those rising tide lifts all ships sort of situations, and I think they're really good. Like, before we talk about the downsides, because there are downsides. That's what I was just my thought was going to be on it. 

Speaker 2: You explained that so much better than me. Oh podcast. 

Speaker 3: this is interesting, but what we're going to say. I think if I was going to start a wedding photography business tomorrow and didn't have any background in weddings, just starting out, that's what I would suggest anybody do on day one Get together with other local suppliers, organize style shoots, And they're so good because two reasons. Well, there's more than two reasons, but the two obvious reasons. One you're going to build relationships with other wedding suppliers, And that can be invaluable because when it comes to growing your network, getting referrals, getting inquiries, there is no better way really than doing that, than having word of mouth referrals from other suppliers who say Oh, I work with Helen the other day on a style shoot. 

Speaker 3: She was brilliant, Such a good laugh, Really got on well with her. Her work is amazing. Here's her contact details. Say that I mentioned, mentioned her. When you get in touch, you know that sort of referrals worth its weight in gold. And the more style shoots you do and the more you get to know people in person, not just online, but knowing other suppliers in person can be so useful, especially if we're talking about, say, a venue who. 

Speaker 3: I think, are often the first people to be booked. when it comes at the timeline of a couple getting married, then that can be so useful. So if you're listening to this, for example, and you want to organize a style shoot, then I will say first of all, like, get a few suppliers together. say, would you be and these shoots usually are, certainly my experience are done on a friendly favor basis. No, no money exchanges hands. Maybe get a few of you together and then approach a venue and say would it be possible to for us to come and shoot at your venue for maybe three or four hours? We've got a dressmaker involved, we've got a florist involved, we've got makeup artists, models. We will, as a collective, provide you with all the images that you can use on your own social media. There's no money involved in this. All we would like is the use of your venue and in exchange, we will give you the images and the video to promote your venue. It's like a win-win for everyone. 

Speaker 3: And I think they're a brilliant thing to do. So that's the biggest advantage, I think building the relationships, But also you're creating content for yourself. Yes, exactly How useful is that, and it's not cheating content, because you're still setting everything up. You're still taking all the images yourself, but you're building like really good portfolio in a way that I know you should be declaring this when you're showing these images online, but even so, you're still creating content. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting how there will be people who have created very successful businesses off the back of style shoots and started heavily in that. And yeah, to be honest, there can be some Snyder marks or sort of bitching behind the scenes. 

Speaker 1: Is that right? 

Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, like we are here, we're trying to create the best work for our couples. We're trying to build our own brands and businesses, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. So do I? can't tell you? how there's a lot of bitching though, about it isn't there, or they can be there. 

Speaker 3: I can't say I can't. you know, maybe I wish everybody had that the ability to just not care, honestly, like if someone is against you working with other people, doing stuff off your own back, building relationships, getting to know other suppliers, creating content and doing it all off your own back, then Oh, forget them. Nobody needs that negativity, no. 

Speaker 2: I am all for style shoots And I will actually say as well for flashmasters members. style shoots are allowed to be entered into the flashmasters as wards. There are great opportunities as well, like I said, to really push yourselves in those areas too, as long as, like I said, you directed it. you, you know, you lit the image, you came up with the creation. 

Speaker 3: Yeah, your concept. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah as long as it's your concept and there's no one else helping you on that or tutoring you, then they are also available to enter. 

Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, just to be clear, we are talking here about you being, like, maybe, the sole photographer and you setting everything up, so, in a way, you know you are still doing everything from scratch. 

Speaker 2: Yes. 

Speaker 3: And that's what I'm referring to here, And then the other. The other third reason I think they're just really really good, And one of the reasons I used to love doing these type of style shoots is because you get to practice. Yeah, you get to practice in an environment where the pressure isn't as high. 

Speaker 3: Well, it can be, Well, i'll tell you about how I started. in the second weather pressure really wasn't that high And I was very fortunate in a way. but yeah, relatively low pressure because, ultimately, what's the worst that can happen? Something goes wrong, you just do it again. You know it's not a wedding day, is it? So the pressure is nowhere near as high and you can experiment And you've also, you know you're shooting really nice dresses in real, oftentimes, really nice venues with really nice styling, with really nice models. Like, yeah, it's pretty much shooting fishing at barrel in situations like that. Yeah, i think they're the big three reasons building relationships, creating your own content and practicing. I think that. so that's style shoots, as I think most people would understand them. 

Speaker 2: Yes, but generally what you've been doing sort of this week or what you do for your YouTube channel, although you refer to them kind of as style shoots, they're not sort of within those typical realms of of style shoots. 

Speaker 3: No. So just to go back to how I started, so when I was a wee young lad so I'm going back here maybe, maybe even more than 10 years, maybe even 12 years ago I would say I was very fortunate that I was friendly with a really nice woman called Jan And she wrote for a couple actually of regional wedding magazines near where I lived, and what she would do is she would sort of do supply a spotlight, so she might do a spotlight on a dressmaker or a florist or a cake maker, that sort of thing, And for that piece she would want photographs for an article. So she would organize these shoots. We only actually need, say, three or four images for the magazine, but the shoots tended to last for a couple of hours. So we'd generally be done really for like half an hour, 40 minutes in. She'd be reviewing the pictures on the back of my camera. So, yeah, that one, that one can shoot this one landscape, i'd get that. And it's like, yeah, i'm happy now. But and then I basically have an hour just to play around with a model, and that's where I first started really experimenting with off camera flash, and again that when I was taking shooting without pressure. 

Speaker 3: That's what I'm talking about, and I used to love those, especially because, to be honest, like I would turn up and it would be, i wouldn't really do any of the setup, it'd just be done for me in really nice venues and stuff. So I was very, very fortunate in terms of how I got into them. But that definitely gave me the bug to do those. And then after that I did do a few where I got to in touch with other suppliers. I've always been fairly fortunate in terms of knowing other suppliers regionally And we'd oftentimes I mean there must have done 20 of these shoots where it's been Oh, do you want to do a shoot? Somebody might approach me, i'll approach somebody else and just do it for fun. Basically, i did loads and loads of these. So have you ever done? 

Speaker 2: any shoots like that then, yeah, one I organized myself, and that was probably in my first or second year full time. So yeah, that was something that I did to sort of help boost my business and to practice and get the kind of portfolio images that I wanted. Because, you know, let's be realistic when you start out as a wedding photographer. Unless you're very fortunate, you're likely to be shooting more of the budget weddings in the probably not fancy venues. 

Speaker 2: You know it's a bit more difficult when you start out. So, yeah, i did, within my first year, arrange at a brand new venue Although it was a new venue, it's a very old, beautiful building that was local to me And when I found out they were becoming a wedding venue, i got in touch straight away And I was the first photographer in to do some images. But once again, i got in touch with my favorite hair and makeup artists and florist, etc. And I even walked into the local town. I went to the very exclusive jewelers there and said this is what we're doing. Oh, the diamonds they brought, yeah, it was amazing. Now I'm saying this out loud. I'm like why? Why haven't I done this again? 

Speaker 3: Exactly, If you've got the time, these are like you just mentioned there, that the new wedding venue opened up and then that's what you did to try and sort of build a relationship with them. That is brilliant. Can you imagine if you're a new wedding venue? it almost sounds too good to be true from their point of view. I'm sure you pick up the phone and somebody says can we come along to your new venue, which hasn't got off the ground yet? bring all these suppliers, create these amazing images and then give them to you for you, to whatever you want with, as long as you just, you know, mention us when you post them on social media. That is such a set before. That is such a win, win, Yeah. It's a brilliant thing. And how useful could that relationship be over years? 

Speaker 3: Yeah it could bring in thousands of pounds of wedding bookings. 

Speaker 2: As I'm saying this out loud, i'm like what? Well, i know why, because things have been very, very busy over the last few years, but in reality, this is something that we, you know, if you want to continue to grow, it's something that I should be doing, and it's quite embarrassing that to think that I've only organized one. I have done others which venues have organized and they've invited me to be their photographer And I will say I have found those quite stressful because they have brought in, like all of the suppliers, i've been photographing Sunday roasts, alongside invitations and flowers and cakes and all the different dresses. 

Speaker 3: Yes, now that was stressful. That, yeah, that's a very important point. Before we get on to that because that is the downside I just thought what a cool idea it would be if you could get together with, say, in your local area Let's think of a dressmaker, a florist, a makeup artist and a model, say, maybe a videographer as well, become like a little group of you, a little collective, and maybe once a month, think right, once a month we're going to approach a venue and try and do a shoot at a venue. If you did that for 12 months, you'd have 12 venues being really friendly with you. 

Speaker 3: Yeah, what a great thing to do. 

Speaker 2: Why are we not doing this? I don't know. I'm scratching my head going Helen, you should be on this and I'm not. Yeah, no, i do need to do that. I will say, the last couple that I've been invited to photograph, though, because the venue did bring all of their favorite local suppliers in. If you're not managing that yourself and you do need to be careful about managing expectations, because they did get very, very full on There was a lot to shoot this. I would say that was quite a pressurised day. 

Speaker 3: Yes, i understand and I've not had that experience, but I've seen how it could happen. I remember once helping out on a shoot where the photographer definitely did have that experience. So what you're talking about here is you have lots and lots of suppliers who basically all want their pound of flesh, as it were, because we are as a photographer, maybe if there's a videographer they're going to be in the same boat. But really once everybody else leaves that shoot, they're done with that shoot. All their work, he's done on the day. For us, obviously, that's just part of our time. We then need to go home, call the images, edit the images, all that stuff, and that's where it gets difficult, because every single supplier will think I want, like you say, if it's a jewelry person, they might bring 20 pieces of jewelry. Can we have photographs of every one of these? If you've got a florist who's maybe two or three different bouquets, buttonholes, can we have photographs of all of these? 

Speaker 2: and that's where the problem comes. Yeah, it's a switching round. Last time I had some stunning like Vera Wang dresses, but there's certain dresses that had to be worn. Although I was photographing and everything came together, there wasn't a particular sort of stylist, so I was still whilst trying to photograph things for caterers and decorations and table plans and it's still self-recent. 

Speaker 2: I am still then trying to pick out which dress the model's going to wear in different locations. I'm thinking I've got this big staircase, the one with the big train's going to need to go on there. So, yeah, they can be stressful and you need to set expectations and try to keep your suppliers. Don't go wild, because yeah, the moment you've got 20 suppliers and then you've got, oh, the car guy's just arrived. You can only say for 30 minutes you need to run outside you need something with the car. Yeah, it's a lot. 

Speaker 3: Yeah, your advice otherwise perfect. It's setting expectations. Everybody goes into this knowing what they're going to get out of it, and I think it's also really good to mention that, like you just said there, to be realistic with how many suppliers you get involved. 

Speaker 2: Yes. 

Speaker 3: Yeah, that sounds like harder than a wedding, actually what you were talking about there. Oh yeah, especially afterwards, if you've got 20 wedding suppliers all like on at you, if you've got the pictures. 

Speaker 2: If you've got the, pictures. 

Speaker 3: you've got the pictures, yeah, But I think overall, the experience should be a very, very positive one, from a business point of view certainly you do this Definitely. 

Speaker 2: I think I want to get onto that. 

Speaker 3: Yeah, it's making me want to do this as well. That is what I think we define as style shoots. So what I do very, very regularly is I call them style shoots, but really they're not. So what I've as a hangover of that, basically, and I used to really enjoy those shoots, especially, as I said before, the shoots that I did with Jan. I love them because that was my playground, basically. That's where I would learn a lot of techniques, just them playing around. I really got the bug for them And then since then, i then started organizing my own and I would say, if anybody wants to do this, then you know it's very, very simple And I don't know why more people don't, because what better way to learn than to have two or three hours with a model or models, with no pressure, with your you know you could buy your own dresses and just shoot, and you don't have to spend a lot of money on this either. 

Speaker 3: First of all, if you're going to do something like this, there's only really two things involved. One is finding a model. If we're talking about a female model, then there are sites that I use, like in the UK there's a site called Purple Port, for example, where lots of models will have their profiles on there And as a photographer, you can put out what's called a casting call. You'll say I'm going to do a shoot on this date in this location and I'm looking for a model that fits this criteria, whatever that might be, and then you will get models approached. You enter in that casting call. I'd really like to work with you. Here's my details And you know you can go through that And I've been doing that for quite a long time now. And Helen's laughing. I know why you're laughing. 

Speaker 2: Helen is laughing because I'm trying to stop shaking. 

Speaker 3: Because anybody who has used a site like Purple Port will know that there is a variety of models on there. Something to float air freeboats, Yeah male and female models, who some are very good, we would say, you know, clearly have a lot of experience, probably full time, amazing portfolio, some less so, and that's why I think, yeah, we'll leave it there, but yeah, there's a wide variety of models. 

Speaker 2: There is. 

Speaker 3: There really is. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. 

Speaker 3: And yeah, i think, especially if you're a female who wants to get into modeling, i would also always say be cautious, because it doesn't just apply to the models that I think sometimes are a little bit. You know not what you would expect. I think the same goes for some of the photographers Dare I say it, the male photographers on some of those sites. I would question. We'll leave that, But yeah well, yeah, yeah, and I also am talking about what when I work with models, ask them about some of their experiences And it's not always very good to hear, very nice to hear at all. 

Speaker 3: Anyway, we'll leave that there, but obviously just be cautious. 

Speaker 2: There is a point within that, though, i don't want to go too far off. But, obviously you know I was there when we collected Bex from the train station and, being there, it's something to consider, especially if you're a male photographer as well. If you're looking for a female photographer, it might be worth, like I said, just having someone else with you. It offers sort of a bit of comfort for both of you as well if you've not worked together before. 

Speaker 3: So, yeah, if we just yeah, we'll go back, that's a great point. So we just take a couple of steps back. So that's how I'll say I will start looking for models. 

Speaker 3: Now one thing I want to say is you might think, oh, it's going to be really expensive to do that, but no, it isn't, because there are two ways of hiring models. basically Again, this applies to male models, female models, if you're using a site like that. one style of shoot is called TFP, which is a very widely used phrase in the industry. That stands for time for prints. In other words, no money exchanges hands. the model will give you their time in exchange for prints or the digital files. 

Speaker 3: So, it's a bit like doing style shoots again. It's a winner all around. As a photographer, you're getting a chance to practice, to create your own images, and the model is getting those images to promote themselves with. So you don't need to spend money Now. Obviously, if you're doing that, the chances are that the model isn't going to be quite as experienced in general. That doesn't mean that they're bad, it just means that they're just starting out. 

Speaker 3: So I've done plenty of TFP prints and they've worked really well. But what you can also do, obviously, is what I do now and I'm putting out a casting call. I will put forward an amount of money that I'm willing to pay a model on that shoot on that location at that particular time, and then you will tend to receive more responses back and then you can just take it from there. That's the process I would go through Now. I've been doing this for years now because of YouTube, and I'm very fortunate that I know, i would say, five or six models who I've worked with on a number of occasions, who I know I can trust, who are brilliant to work with And who now, because we've got a relationship, i can just phone up or just say for I never use the phone. 

Speaker 3: I can just message at any point and say are you free on this time? I am always looking for new models, though, just because it's nice to work with new people, but yeah, that's how I would find models. The other popular way that people find models is to actually go to an agency. 

Speaker 3: But, I must admit I've done that in the past it's very expensive, very, very expensive. However, if you do work with an agency model I don't know if you ever work, you will have done surely that professional models Like. There is a clear difference when you're working with someone who is a full time model, an agency sign model whoa, they are amazing. And I have so much respect for models because you might think, oh, it's quite easy, what they do, it is really really not Like a good model is worth their weight in gold. And just when you, when they look down your lens, you think, whoa, that looks amazing. And it looks amazing not because they're photogenic people, but because they know exactly what they're doing And they're and I say, like it's like whoa, it is just like it's amazing to work with people like that. 

Speaker 3: The other place I find can be quite useful as well is just Facebook groups. Yeah, that I think I might have found Bex, actually, who I've just worked with, who is brilliant on a Facebook group like just the regional one, like that's another way you can find models. So so that's what. To go back to that. But yes, what you said there is is really key, because I know that for me, as a male photographer who is often working with models who are younger than me, that's going to be inevitable, i think. Unfortunately, these times I'm really conscious, very, very conscious, that I don't want to. Basically, let's just say it appears a weirdo. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't have creepy vibes. 

Speaker 3: No well, it's very kind of you to say that, but I will always say I like to approach models on Instagram because I feel as though they can see my profile, which sort of gives you some sort of proof that you're not a weirdo. I like to think, but I always feel very self-conscious, especially if I'm doing a shoot for the first time with a female model. I would never meet that model on my own Like. This is why, when we just did a shoot with Bex, i made it very clear to her that, even if you weren't going to be on the shoot itself, you'll be with me in the car when we pick her up. Because, yeah, bit of background, bex came to meet us on the train and then we picked her up in the car. So I would be really hesitant to do In fact, i wouldn't do that on my own because I just feel like this is it would just feel a bit wrong to me, just to me to be saying to a female model okay, do you want to come and meet me at this time, especially because of the sunset shoot. 

Speaker 3: You know, meet at, say, 7pm at this train station that you're getting, you're coming to and then just getting my car. It's just not for me. So thank you for coming. And it's different then because once now we've done the shoot with Bex, i feel like you know me and Bex know each other now And I'm sure that there is an element of trust that's there now. We've obviously met each other. That helps. But I would certainly say that if you are a male photographer looking to do a shoot with a female, especially if she's going to be on her own, then have somebody with you. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, i think that's best for all parties involved. Exactly, yeah. 

Speaker 3: Yeah, so there are the shoots I love to do, and there's three reasons that I actually wrote down here that I love to do these, and it sort of goes back to what we said before. The first one and it's the main one for me, i guess is that I just really love doing them. I genuinely love doing these shoots because I love photography, and I especially love photography when I'm shooting what I love the most And although I get the biggest kick out of shooting documentary on a wedding day and capturing that moment, you think, oh, that's going to be priceless There is still an element of documentary which always feels to me it's a bit annoying actually. It's like, oh, like I'm not in control of everything, so it's never going to be like, oh, perfect. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. 

Speaker 3: It's very natured. Documentary images aren't, and they don't need to be either. It's all about the emotion. Obviously, it's a bit more like you're flying by the seat, you're pint, you grab that shot there and then, and I say, the feeling of satisfaction you get when you capture a good moment is unequaled. However, what I love about, say, doing a style shoot because I do love portraits, but it's I'm in control of everything the location, the time of the shoot, the styling of the shoot although, say, styling, it's basically just dresses, the styling, the lens choice, everything I enjoy. Well, let's just talk about dresses. Actually, i have lots of dresses. I have bought the majority of them from two places. One is Amazon and I don't. As you know, i don't spend much on them maybe 30 to 40 pounds, which is maybe 40 to 50 dollars, and you get really nice dresses for that. 

Speaker 2: I'm going. Yeah, there are. Yeah, it's very hit and miss. 

Speaker 3: Yes, I've had some that are nice, And let's also say that they don't need to be that nice to the because they're on a photo shoot. 

Speaker 1: Yeah. 

Speaker 3: Well, I imagine you won't want to get married in one of these dresses. No, no but for shoots they're fine. 

Speaker 2: Well, yeah, especially if you're going off and you know you're doing something a bit more adventurous, or you know you're wading through fields or going to a waterfall or something. You're not in a stately home and you want someone perfectly posed on the staircase and looking all grand. It kind of depends. you know what the purpose of the shoot is, but for what you do, then obviously you don't need the expensive dresses. 

Speaker 3: Yeah, good point. When I Dawn I don't know if you have this when you do a South shoot, did you have a dressmaker involved? Oh yeah, we had Vera Wang, totally Yeah, was Vera annoyed with you? 

Speaker 2: No, vera was fine, but my first one that I did. I had again some of those very expensive dresses And we were in a hall and we went back to the back of the area where they had this little folly and all these road addendrons are out and all the color and everything else And it was beautiful. So I put the bride on the on this certain bridge There was over a lake and got all the color in And yeah, there was lots of like algae on the bridge and the bottom of the dress was green. I was like, oh, but who knew, turns out most wedding dresses they might say dry clean only, or, but this particular one they were like, oh, don't worry, we'll just throw in the washing machine. I was like what? It was quite a big dress as well. And yeah, i thought, oh, i'm in trouble here, i'm going to have a very expensive cleaning bill, and apparently they just put it in the washing machine. 

Speaker 3: Yeah, well, off the back of that, i can remember once, when I was doing my first round of in person workshops, a very first time I would borrow dresses from a shop. She was lovely, the lady in the shop. I do remember she gave me a couple of dresses on this one occasion And I this was like the day before the workshop, i'm picking them up And she did say, oh, that they can't go outside, and they were the ones that were earmarked for this workshop. Oh, and yeah, it was a summer workshop as well. He said, oh, that's a real. And we, we did go outside. We had to be very, very only on dry grass. But that's another huge advantage of having your own dresses. It literally doesn't matter. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. 

Speaker 3: I've done more than one shoot. I can think of where the dress hasn't made it back. I can remember doing a shoot with my friend Beth, which we did at Formby on the beach, and that dress didn't come back with us, it just got choked in the bin. It was soaking wet through It's full of sand. It was only we only paid like 30 pound for it And I just put it in the bin, and that's a good thing, though, like again, you don't want to be worrying about the state of the dress when you get in all creative. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, You are when you're in the flow, And I will say as well, you've got some your veils. I don't even know how they're still in one piece. They, absolutely they get so abused And I'm pretty sure those did. you say 10 are on Amazon. 

Speaker 3: Something like that Yeah, they're not. They're cheap. Veils are expensive, aren't they? 

Speaker 2: They can be mega expensive. The ones you see on a wedding day can be extortionally expensive. 

Speaker 3: I mean, we're talking hundreds. 

Speaker 2: Hundreds, hundreds and hundreds, like towards the 1000s sometimes. 

Speaker 3: What's the difference then? I'm sorry, do you have any? any veil makers? they say I'm sure you're well worth it. Well, how come I can buy a veil for 10 pound of Amazon and some brides will spend 500? Oh. 

Speaker 2: I'm sure it's going to be down to the quality and the how finely spun the netting is or something, And obviously all the craftsmanship that obviously like the more intricate and things. Having said that, yours doesn't have any details, They just know they do the job for photo shoots. So well as well, you can throw them while and I said, if you rip it on a a tweet going through a field, it doesn't really matter. So yeah, essentially you can start these shoots with an FTP, ftp yes, FTP. 

Speaker 3: Model No no TFP. Tfp FTP is a way that you upload files on a computer. 

Speaker 2: Oh well, i'm not. Well, yes, it's a totally different thing, that never mind. Either way, you can get yourself a free model and address and avail on Amazon and do a shoot for less than 50 quid and come away with amazing images. 

Speaker 3: Also, if you, if you're maybe a bit nervous about doing this, get a few of you together, do it with three or four photographers, split the cost. Yeah, everybody wins. There are great, great things to do. They also get easier as well, because once you have done two or three of these shoots and you get to know models, you'll build relationship with those models and then you don't need to look for a different model every single time. If anybody's listening to this, follows me on YouTube, for example, or I've been on my workshops, you will know the couple of models that I work with regularly, like Demi and James, for example, who I owe so much to. I've worked with Demi and James countless times over years now, but self, demi and James become really, really good friends over the years And I know that I can just contact them almost on a whim Oh, the weather's looking really good on Thursday, are you free? And oftentimes they'll try and move things around so we can. 

Speaker 3: In the past, i mean with Demi, especially for YouTube, i can think of that I've done a shoot with Demi in a cave. I've done a shoot with her in the middle of a really busy road in Liverpool. I've done a shoot with her on a beach where she got wet through. It's freezing cold, with the wind, like. I put her through a lot. We've done a shoot in the pouring rain. Demi is amazing and we've done so much together. I've learned so much from shooting with Demi and we are like a team, same with James, the three of us. We know what each other wants and we're like a machine now almost. We know how to work together And that makes things easier, obviously, when it comes to creating the content. 

Speaker 3: But it also means that you're creating these relationships that you can't. If you do think, oh, there's a really good idea. I've got Like, for example, i did a shoot with Demi a couple of years ago. It's like, oh, there's daffodils around now, let's find some daffodils, let's get Demi involved and I'll meet her and we'll do a shoot in daffodils. 

Speaker 3: I've done the same with what was it? The red flowers, like red poppy poppy field. I did a shoot in poppy fields as well. You know it's. All these things come about because I've got a relationship with Demi and the same with Beth as well, although she's left me now She moved to London But it's same with Beth that it's like oh, i've got an idea. Are you free tomorrow? Yes, and then we'll just do something Like me and Beth have done like loads of Halloween shoots and stuff together. Beth was the first person I thought of when we're doing the underwater shoot at Tank Space, anyway. So the more you do, the more you get to know models, the easier it is. And Demi and James, actually, i think we can actually say we won't say exactly when. 

Speaker 2: Oh, you're going to say, well, maybe a future guest on the podcast. 

Speaker 3: That's going to be very funny, I think. 

Speaker 2: Because what else do? 

Speaker 3: you like together. Well, all of us together if I'm honest, I know I can't wait. 

Speaker 2: I'm so nervous for anyone listening to this. Well, everyone, you just can't put like subtitles on a podcast. 

Speaker 3: I know I'm looking. Even now I can't. I'm just smiling, thinking about what it's going to be like. 

Speaker 2: I'm just glad that you edited these and not me. 

Speaker 3: Yeah, so Demi and James said, the models that I use for my workshops of using countless YouTube videos may wink, wink, be coming to your ears soon. We will see, we will see Fingers crossed. 

Speaker 2: Fingers crossed, it's going to be absolute carnage. 

Speaker 3: But yeah, i forgot where I was up to now. Oh, anyway, i'm going back through my reason. So reason number two I've already well going into this in much detail because we've already discussed this. I just think they're brilliant for experimenting, practicing and learning. I've learned so much doing doing videos and doing these shoots. I've learned how to do maybe like multi-image composites. I've learned how to shoot through things. I've learned how to use different lenses. 

Speaker 3: Because I'm doing challenges as well, i often do like 10 minute challenges. You've filmed one for me recently at my workshop. I had 10 minutes in the lunch break at one of my workshops. So with Demi and James again, helen was with me So we went upstairs to one of the hotel rooms and we just did a quick portrait shoot in 10 minutes. 

Speaker 3: And the great thing about those is the more of those challenges you do, you do get better Because you're forcing yourself. You can't cheat that, you can't just think on the video. Sorry for running out of ideas. Now, three minutes in, you're forcing yourself to shoot for 10 minutes in a very confined environment. So you become recreative. You're training yourself to be creative. So, again, brilliant for that as well, i would say. And the last reason. This isn't the biggest reason, but I can't deny it's a big factor. They do help my business, they feed into people will watch my YouTube channel. Those people, hopefully, then will think about joining flashmasters, think about joining my Patreon, maybe come on to one of my workshops. So YouTube is at the top of the funnel for me, so that's where people often find out about me and my work and they will then hopefully be interested and find out more about my education. Say, patreon, flashmasters, workshops but they all start by YouTube. So they-. 

Speaker 2: But if you were just a layman, or if you were someone just starting out who doesn't have a YouTube channel, don't forget. You know, this is a fantastic way to build those relationships and to get into venues you've not shot at before. Get that style shooting and get those bookings. 

Speaker 3: Honestly, like I think I said earlier in the podcast, if I was starting my business tomorrow, day one, I will be contacting suppliers to see if they're interested in doing a style shoot Without. I do that before SEO. I do that before worrying about my social media because I want to have some good content, because I say you're creating content in your building relationships. It is the best thing to do. 

Speaker 2: I feel like an absolute idiot. Why have I not done one of these in like two or three years? 

Speaker 1: Oh, i'm sensing, Oh, another challenge. 

Speaker 2: I haven't done anything to my website yet, It's just racking up. I know I've just got a long list of challenges. 

Speaker 3: Okay, I won't go there yet. I won't go there just yet. then I'm trying to. 

Speaker 2: I need to start writing down what these challenges were. It's to finish my website, which I'm no further along than I was, like when we first mentioned I was doing my website. There was one to use a 360 camera that Adam Lowndes challenged. 

Speaker 3: Yes. 

Speaker 2: Which I did use. 

Speaker 3: Which you did. I've downloaded the files now. 

Speaker 2: Oh well, yeah, you were laughing very, very hard. 

Speaker 1: Yes. 

Speaker 2: They were not attractive, or Oh of course It was the smoke one Yeah Can we post that in the group. Oh yeah, go on then. It's awful. I was in tears. Yeah, he was absolutely wetting himself laughing. I forgot about this. 

Speaker 3: I was thinking of it being the alpaca bit. 

Speaker 2: No. 

Speaker 3: But the actual smoke bomb bit Me trying to run with a camera but a 360 camera that's close to me It is so funny I suddenly look like I've got ginormous boobs. 

Speaker 2: My forehead is massive. I literally look like my forehead's like four foot high. It's the most unflattering angle ever And it just needs some comedy music over the top. 

Speaker 3: I'm doing this. Well, my challenge is to post at this group with some comedy music over the top, just to embarrass me and go yes, no, because it's educational. It's educational. I can't see the amazing Helen Williams at work. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, i'm not really sure what people are going to get from that, apart from a massive video content. 

Speaker 3: just to take the mic out of me If that isn't reason to join Flash Masters to view that content. I don't know what is. I don't think that will be in public, will it? So we'll put that in the private. Facebook group for Flash Masters members. 

Speaker 2: It's terrific. 

Speaker 3: Roll up, roll up. You don't want to miss this everyone. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, I'm sure the sales of 360 cameras will plummet rather than go through the roof after seeing that. 

Speaker 3: It is brilliant. 

Speaker 2: Oh, it is bad. I'm trying to think what my other challenges were. now Post to Instagram. 

Speaker 3: Oh, you've been doing that. You did it really well, i am. And I'm assuming, I already know, I'm assuming only positivity back. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, no one's been mean. 

Speaker 3: I've not had any nasty comments, So yeah all good, i see what we will talk about. Ready end, talk about Instagram. I think we both have the same like ding, Yeah, go for it After you. 

Speaker 2: We've both paid to be verified on Instagram. 

Speaker 3: We paid. 

Speaker 2: Oh, what We're both verified, Yes yeah, of course we are. 

Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we're just randomly famous. 

Speaker 3: Oh, you've given up the cat on the back now. 

Speaker 2: Oh darn it. Well, i don't think anyone would think me would buy 3,000 followers that I've just gone over. It's going to be like oh yeah, instagram official baby bam. Yeah, no, i paid. 

Speaker 3: Let's talk about the reason why. Because we both decided when, as soon as we got the opportunity to pay the what is it? £11 in the UK a month to be verified. We both did it straight away. I'll let you say, because I think we both have the same opinion on it. I wanted to feel famous, that's not the one we say out loud, though. 

Speaker 2: No no. 

Speaker 3: Blue tick baby. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm a proper celeb now. Between that, I've been spotted in Conwy. 

Speaker 3: You're basically a Kardashian. Yeah, something like that a Welsh Kardashian. 

Speaker 2: That's me. No, obviously, my particular reasoning for doing it was that you can actually hopefully get in touch with someone now if things go down. 

Speaker 3: the swanee Is that what you're saying? Yeah, we stayed here So a few weeks ago. Obviously, listen to the podcast. We'll know that you had your Instagram hack. Thankfully got it back. I did Because you saw it happen, you sort of intervened. live when it was happening, yeah. 

Speaker 2: I got a notification. They got through my two factor authentication. The only thing that saved me is it being linked to my Facebook and I managed, although they were trying to change my password on my Facebook. 

Speaker 2: As I was there changing my password, they'd added in another email, but yeah either way oh, i could feel the tension coming back around me now, but, yeah, i managed to change my password and get everything locked out before they took over Facebook. Anyway, the fact that hopefully I should be able to contact someone one to one if that was to happen again, would be useful. 

Speaker 3: Oh, without a doubt. If anybody listened to this now was to lose their Instagram, how much money would you pay to get it back? A lot, yeah, a lot, and this is what I said this in the Facebook group, the way I see it like Instagram is such an integral tool for all of us. These days, photographers rely on Instagram. Whatever niche or genre of photography you're in, instagram is pretty much your online portfolio. These days, i would say more useful than a website, but it's not far off, not equal. 

Speaker 3: Exactly, i would say so. And it's free. I know that we all win about oh the algorithms doing me dirty, oh my posts aren't getting as much reach as they used to, blah, blah, blah and all that sort of stuff, which I understand, but it is still free, not anymore. It's such an integral part of our business And, the way I see it, what we pay, that 120, $130 pounds, even a year that is not a lot of money for something that is so essential to our businesses. Because I would think, if you don't have an Instagram account and you're a photographer, it almost raises questions. If I was looking to book, say, well, i'm photographer and they weren't on Instagram, i would think, oh, a bit weird why they're not on Instagram, do? 

Speaker 3: you know, what it's like a badge of validation almost. So it's really important and it is free. So I think fair play, i think it's a small amount to pay for the security of knowing that if anything goes wrong, then you've got somewhere you can go to. 

Speaker 2: Or with theory. Anyway, i would say, well, yeah, fingers crossed. Plus, we're gonna have a little look into this. We don't know at this point, but we're kind of hoping that, since we paid the money, that maybe, even if not immediately, there may be some preference in terms of who sees our work. They may start giving preferences to those who have paid and are verified. Then maybe our posts will reach a little a few more people than those who don't. 

Speaker 3: But we've got no evidence of that, no, I mean, it's a bit of a conspiracy, i think, but ultimately, facebook Metta, who owns the own Instagram. They're a business And they've proved on Facebook that they are a money making business as well. 

Speaker 3: And who are they going to promote? If two photographers are gonna post, say, the same image, hypothetically, and one of them is verified, one of them is not verified, one of them is paying the money every month or he's not paying the money every month, who are they going to promote? I think it's fairly obvious. If not immediately, it will become a thing in the future. 

Speaker 2: It will be interesting to see if we see any difference or changes in terms of engagement or likes on posts, although to say I won't know because I don't look at any of those, someone did ask me the other day going oh what are your stats like? Now you're verified, i'm like I don't know. I don't know what they were before I don't look, you'll get a general vibe. 

Speaker 3: Now you're posting though you were about to find out. Whoop, whoop. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm still a work in progress. 

Speaker 3: I'm still not posting as much as I should, but I'm getting there. 

Speaker 3: One very quick thing, and this is not about Instagram maybe a future podcast but I would just say what we have learned and I certainly learned is that to get the most number of likes, you have to post more than one image. now, one image on its own does not really do it anymore. A carousel of at least five images does seem to do. well, i think you've felt that as well, haven't you, like? you've done fairly well in your recent posts and you've been posting quite a few images in one go. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, I tend to just try and fill 10 now. Yeah, it feels good. 

Speaker 3: Yeah, anyway, we can talk about this on maybe a future podcast, because we're just coming up to the hour mark. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, we did totally go off on a little tangent there, didn't we Podcast? 

Speaker 3: How's it going? 

Speaker 2: Yeah, i think it's been all right. I think actually maybe we should have another drink next time. Let's do another one. 

Speaker 3: That's the first step to alcoholism. 

Speaker 2: Oh, I've passed steps 1, 2 3 and 4. All right. 

Speaker 3: So thank you so much for this, everyone. We hope you've enjoyed it As always. If you'd like to join us in the Flashmatters community, you can do so. Remember, if you do so, you see Helen 360 footage, which is amazing. Yeah, you can do so at flashmaster.co We'd love to have you over there, but until the next one, we will see you next time. 

Speaker 1: Keep flashing.