Is it cheating to use fake skies?! We discuss the impact of AI on Photography Awards

In this episode we celebrate our recent guests, Janina Brocklesby, Neil Ridley and duo Demi and James, as well as updating you on all the recent Flash Masters developments in the Flash Masters community - and there has been a lot! We've had our minds blown with the feedback from you, the Flash Masters community, and we can't wait to share the exciting developments we've rolled out - like our live streams that are all about simplifying off-camera flash.

Prepare yourself as we venture into some contentious territories in the world of photography - and how they can affect photography awards. There's a lot of buzz in the community around a post questioning if sky replacement should be in the Flash Masters Awards, and we share our thoughts on this and the potential impact of AI in photography. Furthermore, we shine a light on the use of digital backgrounds, the effects of cloning out a soft box in a photograph, as well as blending two photographs taken at different times. And oh, we've got discussions about a new category for digital art, which could stir things up a bit, but hey, who doesn't love a little excitement?

To wrap up, our hearts are full of gratitude for every one of our guests and community members. Your unwavering support and active involvement in the Flash Masters community and the Flash Matters awards has been truly overwhelming. We can't stress enough the importance of keeping things real, staying motivated, and pushing boundaries for growth. So buckle up and get ready for a riveting session of the Flash Masters podcast that promises to be as thought-provoking as it is enlightening.

Join us in the Flash Masters community:

Website: https://flashmasters.co/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/flashmasters/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@flash-masters

Flash Masters is hosted by:

Helen Williams: https://www.instagram.com/helenwilliamsphotography/
Neil Redfern: https://www.instagram.com/neilredfern/

Transcript

Intro: 0:00

Welcome to the Flash Masters podcast. Flash Masters recognises and celebrates the best flash photography in the world through education, awards and community. To find out more and to join the Flash Masters community, visit flashmasters. co Here are your hosts, Helen Williams and Neil Redfern.

Helen Williams: 0:28

Hello there, everyone, and welcome to another Flash Masters podcast with me, helen Williams and me, Neil Redfern. And unfortunately for you guys, today you're stuck with just Neil and I Just the two of us, just the two of us, Building castles in the sky.

Neil Redfern: 0:43

Why, why? it seems to be a long time, hasn't?

Helen Williams: 0:45

it. This feels so weird just being sat with the two of us, with no one else here.

Neil Redfern: 0:49

Because the last three episodes we have had amazing guests. Shall we do a quick recap of who they are, Helen.

Helen Williams: 0:54

Yes, we have spoken with Janina Brockelsby.

Neil Redfern: 0:56

Janina.

Helen Williams: 0:58

Oh my goodness, are you ready? Janina Brocklesby, Neil Ridley and Demi and James, who feature in lots of your amazing YouTube videos.

Neil Redfern: 1:07

Yeah, they've been the stars of my videos and now they're the stars of the podcast, and they were both absolutely brilliant, because I know they were very nervous, as were Janina and Neil Like they were nervous as well, but again, brilliant, brilliant episodes, and not just funny episodes, i'd like to think, but I also think they were packed full of really useful information. So again, massive thank you to all four of our recent guests.

Helen Williams: 1:27

Yeah, i learned absolutely loads from each of them And it's been really interesting to see the feedback from Flashmasters, members who've been listening as well, and I think that lots of people have learned things They never expected to learn from them. And I must say, for all of those guys coming on podcasts, they did really well to do it without any wine, like I used to.

Neil Redfern: 1:45

Yeah, exactly, stone cold sober.

Helen Williams: 1:48

Yeah, not a drop of wine or alcohol touched their lips.

Neil Redfern: 1:51

But one thing, because we've had some guests on recent, we now have a lot of Flashmasters news to catch up on and we mean a lot. We don't actually know where this is going to go, but I think the majority of podcasts will actually be taking up with us talking about how we may have to change the rules going forward for the Flashmasters awards due to just the advent of AI and AI being used within images.

Helen Williams: 2:14

Causing drama.

Neil Redfern: 2:15

Yes, it has been a bit of a drama filled week in the world of Flashmasters. So we're going to talk about that a little bit later, because that's going to become a I mean, being serious is going to be a big issue, not just for us, but any awards body is going to have to tackle the issues that will arise from AI things like fates, guys, generative fill, all that sort of stuff. So we're going to be exactly the same. So we're actually going to be talking about that with our members over a zoom call in a few days time, aren't we? But we'll talk about it a little bit more in this podcast, maybe give some of our ideas. But before all that, before all the catch up and again there is a lot to catch up on How's your week being, helen? Have you been? I know exactly what you've been doing. You were shooting a wedding on Saturday, weren't you?

Helen Williams: 2:56

I was. I was with Flashmasters member and podcast guest Martin Hobby at one of his weddings And that's the first time that I've second shot for Martin, The second shot for me quite a few times.

Neil Redfern: 3:08

Who was actually the first time you second shot for him?

Helen Williams: 3:10

Yeah, he's always been my, And he did have to say a few times oh, I just need to give myself a kick up the arse and remember that I'm in charge today.

Neil Redfern: 3:19

The dynamic was all different. Yeah, and I hope he did.

Helen Williams: 3:23

No, it was all good. I did get kicked up, you know, kicked up the bats and it was quick. It was quite fun to see the roles reverse and change And for us both to see how the other one did the other thing in terms of second shooting and yeah, where you were good. I think so.

Neil Redfern: 3:38

I think I was a great refresh with water, regularly snacks.

Helen Williams: 3:43

Oh bad Oh yeah, sorry. Yeah, i didn't do well on that, unfortunate. Oh, no, wait, a minute, i did. I did manage to get us both a glass of red wine in the afternoon. A classic Helen style So yeah, I did Without one minute past 12.

Neil Redfern: 3:59

Technically it's the afternoon.

Helen Williams: 4:01

Yeah, we had quite a bit of a gap between the end of the reception and then the evening starting and all of the guests were enjoying themselves. We were on a farm, everyone was outside, so much alcohol left over And, yeah, we were chatting with lots of the guests. It was. Everyone was just so friendly. And they were like go in, there's so many bottles of wine there, come and join us and have a drink. And it was just very, very lovely A really nice, chilled wedding.

Neil Redfern: 4:26

Oh, excellent, here's an interesting one for you. Again, not prepped. Do you think you'll do anything with any of the images? This isn't like to say how good or bad you did, but like just in general, when you do, when you second shoot, do you look back on the images that you take?

Helen Williams: 4:37

Yeah, Okay, Although I will say, and I did say when I came home that night, i was trying to channel my inner York place and really work with documentary and with it, things being outdoors and there being garden games and Jenga. I spent a little bit of time during that sort of time between the reception and the evening, dancing after I had my glass of red wine, and I thought I'm going to try and really get some layers going within the documentation of the Jenga game that got very heated.

Helen Williams: 5:09

And I do think that I got something there, but I've not looked back.

Neil Redfern: 5:12

Excellent. For those that are unaware York Place, who Helen is referring to, there are Dom and Liam, incredible, incredible UK based documentary photographers. Their work is it just blows your way, doesn't it, every time you look at it, and I can picture that a lot of their images, which I think speaks volumes about how talented they are and how their images sort of stick into your brain, and a lot of what their work is is involving layers. Yeah, you got your inner York Place.

Helen Williams: 5:39

Well, I don't know, I'm not looking back at the photos but it's probably a very cheap. It's like is York Place off off wish.

Neil Redfern: 5:46

Here's one question, then. This will find out whether you did it well or not. I'll put you where you are.

Helen Williams: 5:51

F9. Oh well done Fair play.

Neil Redfern: 5:54

There was some jenga going on.

Helen Williams: 5:55

There was some drinking and cartwheeling children.

Neil Redfern: 5:57

Darlene will be proud of you, thank you.

Helen Williams: 6:00

So, Neil, I wasn't the only one who had a f***ing this weekend.

Neil Redfern: 6:03

No, I was also a f*** as well for again, flash Masters members, nick and Paul from Madison Pitcher, and that was a really good wedding as well. I really, really enjoyed it. I just love second shooting in general. It's just so good to not have that pressure and not be thinking, oh, i've got to do the group shots At the end of the ceremony where you get called forward to do a shot of the sign of the register. Don't have to do that either. Literally don't have to worry about the timings, i'm just literally looking for moments the whole time. Yeah, it's so nice. I've said this on the podcast that we did with Neil Ridley. I'd almost think I'd like, quite like, to be a professional second shooter.

Helen Williams: 6:36

Oh, i've got it all.

Neil Redfern: 6:38

I mean obviously the money's not there, but the same time, No pressure. Well, you do have a little bit of pressure obviously, like I was obviously shooting groom prep. That was the only time that I was not with Nick and Paul, So the rest of the time they're taking charge And I'm just walking around looking for the good stuff.

Helen Williams: 6:53

Yeah, i've just you're going to tell me often be like, oh, shut up, don't be daft, but I'm used to you second shooting now. But how many people would literally want Neil Redford as their second shooter? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you'd be like, oh, i'm just going to film my cameras in the bin now. His stuff's better than mine.

Neil Redfern: 7:10

Well, no, i will think that. No, i will think that, but what I will say is I don't get asked. very rarely Do I ever get asked.

Helen Williams: 7:16

Yeah, i remember, i asked you years ago.

Neil Redfern: 7:18

I always say how much I enjoy it. I've just said that I would love to be a professional second shooter. I really enjoy it, genuinely.

Helen Williams: 7:25

I think you're going to regret that statement. The office is going to come flooded in.

Neil Redfern: 7:29

I've got to be a financial incentive, But at the same time I still love to do it.

Helen Williams: 7:33

But yeah, I reckon there's going to be all these offers flooding in. You're like, oh, I don't want to go to all these weddings.

Neil Redfern: 7:40

Well, I will say, though and Nick, as any of you who's in the Flashmaster community will know, is an exceptional photographer. If you're only not saying Paul, though, is that Paul is primarily the video part of Madison picture. They do, But also Paul was on video, Nick was on stills I was second shooting for stills And the both of them incredibly talented. But we did come up with one of these age old issues. I don't know if they have it. They have it in other countries, but in the UK it is certainly something that we come across every so often, And that is Vickers priests. I'm never sure what the difference has been a Vickers priest reverend.

Helen Williams: 8:13

No, clim. One of one of those people, the people of God.

Neil Redfern: 8:16

Yeah, this one wasn't really acting, i would say, in a very caring, loving, godly way, though, because he was said you can take a photograph coming of the bridegroom down the aisle or walking up the aisle either way, like she's coming into the church And that's it. You then need to go to the back of the church, and I did really try because it wasn't my wedding. I was at the church before Nick and Paul, so I really wanted to try and help them out. I said, oh, just so you know the camera, that's fine, the cameras are silent. We could stand at the side. You literally wouldn't hear a sound and Nick would be happy not to move, i'm sure. No, no, people will be looking at Nick and not at me if we do that. So he needs to go to the back and it's just like why? why do you do that? Do you know what I mean? These are not celebrities. This is not the world's biggest wedding. It's just a really lovely family wedding where the bride and groom were.

Neil Redfern: 9:06

They were so good, so expressive the whole day. Like one word that I will say, because Nick gave me a little preview. Like Nick has got one of the best photographs I have, so jealous when I saw it, of the groom just wiping away a tear as the bride's walking up the aisle. It's like, oh, that's brilliant. But the bride especially was so expressive the whole day And, as Nick said to me, like you just know that when they're at the front facing the Vicar priest, reverend delete is appropriate She would have been laughing like cry. You know all that good stuff, yeah, and we're just in the backs of heads And it's like, oh, it just feels like I don't understand it, just don't get it at all. Why do you deliberately want to try and hinder the work that you're doing when you're on their side, like you're shooting silently, not moving, they wouldn't even know you were there. Anyway, that's my little rant, but apart from that, everything was brilliant. The whole day was so good to shoot. I loved it. So thank you again for inviting me, nick and Paul.

Helen Williams: 10:00

So the both of us enjoyed being bitches on the weekend.

Neil Redfern: 10:03

Yeah, because, like you said, you just come back. I do download the cards. I haven't looked through them yet myself. I think I will, because there's a few parts that day that really like, oh, that was good, i need to look back through them. But at the same time, if you look through, you look through, if you don't, you don't. But there's nothing to do with these old culling. No editing, job done.

Helen Williams: 10:20

No, and I do think we both enjoyed arriving back before it was pitch black outside And like, so when we came back, it wasn't like we have to back up this second.

Neil Redfern: 10:29

Exactly, yeah, it's a dream. Yeah, that's nice Near Refinn professional second shooting services coming soon.

Helen Williams: 10:35

Amazing. So I think we've caught up on what we've been doing with our photography businesses ourselves, but obviously we run this thing called Flashmasters too, And boy has that been a busy time for us.

Neil Redfern: 10:46

Yeah, the past three weeks have been really busy but I really feel like we've brought in new things which are really bringing the community together. So we've got to talk about in this podcast And I just feel in the past month, especially Flashmasters has really reassessed us, growing to what we really want it to be. It feels like it's all coming together really well now.

Helen Williams: 11:02

Yeah, it really does, and we've had some of the most incredible feedback and messages and comments And you're going to start blushing again over your live streams that you've been doing over the past two months for your introduction to Off Camera Flash.

Neil Redfern: 11:15

Yeah, so to read what I wanted to mention. This is because I think anybody who's listening to this, who maybe sees Flash as being something a little bit scary off camera lighting being a bit daunting and it is. It definitely is when you first start, and that's why we've got such an abundance of air quotes natural light photographers Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I think there are a proportion of those people who maybe use natural light because they're a little bit off put by using off camera lighting and find it a little bit scary. So these two streams, which are basically one stream just cut in half, were designed to try and go through everything that I know from literally the bare bone basics of what is a flash, what equipment do you need to get started, what is a trigger? What trigger do I use that? literally everything all the way through to go to setups that you can use for portraits, for dancing, for speeches, and try to make everything feel really less scary. I go through my thought process as well about how I envisage off camera lit photographs before I've taken them, using a process called layers Nothing to do with what Dom and Liam do, but using layers And basically it's everything that I know within two live streams, that together equates to five hours of video, but with lots of photographs and lots of behind the scenes video as well.

Neil Redfern: 12:32

Now, one thing we've always been very aware of when we started flashmasters is we wanted to celebrate the absolute best images in the world. Now, there's also slight downside of that is, if you look at the images that are winning flashmasters awards and you think I can never achieve anything like that, like the standard is so, so high. Please, please, if that resonates with you, do not be put off from joining flashmasters, because, yes, the standard of the award winning images is high And that's on purpose, because we want people to have a level to a spire to reach. But there is content for you that will help you get there. This is not just the best photographers in the world or just chatting amongst themselves. We want this to be a really open and supportive community, and it is, and there is content for you. If you have never even tried our Kamer Flash before, that's what these two streams were designed to help.

Neil Redfern: 13:24

If you think, oh, i don't know what I'm doing with it, i don't even own a Flash yet There is now educational content for you in the form of these streams in particular, that you will really gain a lot from. Again, these streams assume no knowledge, so you don't need to know anything And then you can watch these streams and then just start practicing And then things will honestly, we promise start to fit into place. So, yeah, i've really enjoyed doing those streams. It was really good to see how well attended they were, especially the second one, which was three hours long. Yes, and we had consistently really good numbers on those streams, all asking questions as well, and I answered questions on the stream, so that makes the streams even more invaluable to others.

Helen Williams: 14:02

It really does, and it's very important that people understand, as you said, that this isn't just a community for those who are already Flashmasters and encoded commas. Is it Bracketing? One of those things the air quotes? we are not just a group of masters of Flash photography. Nobody is.

Neil Redfern: 14:22

I think if anybody says I'm a master of Flash photography, then they're lying. Nobody is. We're always learning all the time. I know I certainly am. I make mistakes every single time I do a shoot, But that's good. Failing is good, Because you only learn when you push yourself into areas that don't feel comfortable. And you make mistakes Because then you'll come back. You're like why did that happen? Ah, OK, I'll try that again And you tweak things And then you get better. The most important thing is just to start.

Helen Williams: 14:48

Yes, and the feedback within the community has just been absolutely incredible, and it's something we'll talk about very, very soon. Or maybe we should move on to my next point here.

Neil Redfern: 14:57

Yes, Because you've been very, very busy yourself And you're implementing two new things which I think are brilliant. So I want to let you introduce these, because I love both of these, and I thank you for doing these because they're going to be so useful.

Helen Williams: 15:08

Thank you. Yes, over the last few weeks, i've spent many hours putting together, first of all, a members survey for all of our members so that we can get some feedback in terms of how we're doing and where we would all like to see my flashmasters go, because, while we might be steering the helm and running the website and doing the podcast, we are very much a community And we know that we're only going to be stronger when we ask the community what it is that they would like and how we can improve. So, yes, we've been doing our members survey. If you are a member who hasn't completed it yet, please do. We are learning so much.

Neil Redfern: 15:43

Yeah, it really is invaluable information. We want to do it now as well, because we're actually approaching our first birthday, which is the town we got about two months away.

Helen Williams: 15:51

Yes, it's eight weeks.

Neil Redfern: 15:52

It's a shame we don't do this in our own businesses as well, somehow, but you learn so much from the information that we're getting back from the survey, which some of it is what we didn't expect either. So thank you to everyone who has filled in that survey And please, as Helen said, keep them coming. The more members that we have fill in that survey, the better the feedback gets And the more we understand about what it is we need to do in the future to give you what it is that you would really benefit the most from.

Helen Williams: 16:15

Yeah, we're definitely not a dictatorship. We like to listen to our members And, yeah, i'm really really enjoying receiving those surveys back. But in addition to doing those as well, we've also started featuring member spotlights and they are going on the Flashmasters website as part of our blog And then they're also getting posted to our Flashmasters official public page along with inside of the members group, and it's absolutely incredible to see the response to those as well, from people outside of the Flashmasters community who are commenting on the page, but then also the support that all our members are receiving from other members. And the one thing I don't want to go into giving away too much that I've my findings from the survey, because we haven't closed it yet and they're still more to come.

Neil Redfern: 17:03

Maybe we should make a whole episode on the results of the survey once we have closed it in a couple of weeks time.

Helen Williams: 17:07

Yeah, was that just going? don't talk anymore, helen. No, feel free to say things.

Neil Redfern: 17:11

I'm just thinking. I think it would be really good to dedicate a whole episode to the results of the member survey.

Helen Williams: 17:16

There are so many questions that are very telling in terms of the state of the photography community and where we are as a whole, not just in terms of Flashmasters things in particular. But yeah, the one thing I was going to say from the member spotlight and the survey is just really, really lovely to see our members say how supported they feel within that Flashmasters community. They're really enjoying seeing their own spotlights go up And so many people have commented that when they post in the Flashmasters members group. I've had people go in. I've had to like nudge my wife. I woke her up because I was like, oh my God, look who commented on my post.

Helen Williams: 17:53

Oh, look who said these nice things And we're getting time and time again that feedback that it's just not a group with egos or people who think they're better than other people. It's such a supportive group and I'm so darn proud.

Neil Redfern: 18:07

Yeah, we're very lucky that the members that we have are all of that same, that same sort of mindset of help and support.

Helen Williams: 18:13

And our ambassadors too. I think they really come to life and really shine within that group as well. It's fantastic when people are asking for help or critique or support that, yeah, these amazing photographers, they're not just there as a token ambassador, they're in the group supporting, giving feedback and helping our members, and I'm just eternally grateful to all of our ambassadors who give time of their own free will to help our members as well. It's just, yeah, it's a very proud thing to see. Oh, totally.

Neil Redfern: 18:41

I think? I've just looked at the website now I think we give Gold Stars to our members who have filled in the member spotlight feature. So, for those who aren't aware, that is basically where the members fill in a short questionnaire that Helen compiled and put forward some of their favorite images And we do a little blog post about them. So big thank you to those who've helped fill it in. So Gold Stars to Chris Wallace of Carpe Diem. Michelle Huntington. Thank you very much, oliver Saliard. Apologies if I've not got your name quite right there, oliver, but thank you very much, jesse and Darlene. Alex Buckland, kimberly Hill. I think we've got a couple of others, haven't we who aren't on there at the moment?

Helen Williams: 19:17

Yes, we've got a few more that will be coming up, so I'm trying to launch these every two or three days also. And yeah, we've got some amazing ones lined up too.

Neil Redfern: 19:24

What I love as well is that those posts. I've only put one so far on Instagram, which was Michelle's, and Michelle's post on Instagram has been our best performing post for weeks and weeks and weeks.

Neil Redfern: 19:37

So yeah it's just brilliant to see when that sort of thing happened. So thank you again to everyone who's done that And please, if you are a member of Flashmasters, please fill in this, because we want to shout about your work, want to share it, put it on Facebook, put it on our Instagram and really shout about all the amazing work that you're doing.

Helen Williams: 19:54

Yeah, it has been fantastic to see those come through, and from very humble photographers as well, who I know have been a bit nervous about putting their work out there and have just been overwhelmed with the response that they've had. So, yeah, it's really, really nice to be able to do that for our members and let them shine.

Neil Redfern: 20:09

Yeah, and another thing that Helen's been working on and I'm so pleased that you have, because this is just so exciting is working on a schedule of future live streams. Now, we've been doing live stream since the day that Flashmasters was born, as it were, but what we haven't done is put a lot of dates in the diary so we can see well in advance. We've always done things like in the month we'll have a live stream and then we'll announce it maybe two weeks before the live stream. But Helen's been working really, really hard to put together a full schedule of live streams for the remainder of 2023. And it is so, so good. So thank you, helen, for doing this. I'm going to ask you now to read through some of the live streams that we have coming up.

Helen Williams: 20:48

Oh, some of them, because I know we've got some extra special ones that are going to be added very shortly and announced.

Neil Redfern: 20:54

Some that we can't talk about yet, but anyway, oh, there's so much exciting things to do, i know, i know.

Helen Williams: 20:59

So our next live stream is coming up on the 12th of July And that's with Ella Beguino Chico. Then on the 9th of August we have an image critique session with Ben Connolly.

Neil Redfern: 21:08

That would be very, very useful These have always gone down, so well Yeah. One of the things that we do know from the survey as well, is that people love critique sessions, so we're happy to oblige Yes.

Helen Williams: 21:19

So our members will be able to submit some images that they would like some feedback on, and Ben will be doing that. We then also have at the end of August still to be formally announced another live stream, but we'll we'll let that tease you there. September, we have a live stream with Christian Cardona Date to be confirmed, but we will get that in for sure. On the 4th of October we have Marlies Hartman, 8th of November, tim Campanin, and on the 6th of December we have Alex and Dolly.

Neil Redfern: 21:46

Yeah, so some incredible, incredible live streams coming up. That list is not exhaustive. We will be adding to that. I can imagine we'll have probably double that number, but that is at the backbone. That is the core of our live stream schedule. And wow, those names Elibagüeno, chico, ben Connelly, christian Cardona, marlies Hartman, tim Campanin, alex and Dolly That's just amazing. So thank you, ellen, for putting that together.

Helen Williams: 22:10

No, you're very, very welcome, And it's really nice that we obviously have these crazy good and talented ambassadors and members Tim's a member who is doing a live stream with us But each of them really have their own specific style.

Neil Redfern: 22:23

Yes, they definitely do.

Helen Williams: 22:24

So there's really something for everyone. I know for each of these people I would recognise and know it was their image from looking at it. So it's going to be so interesting to see their different approaches to how they shoot and take their images.

Neil Redfern: 22:37

And our last bit of Flashmasters news and this is a big one. We have just announced Collection 7. And, as always, just the standard of images blows us away. It's like whoa, look at that. So huge, huge. Thank you to everybody who went to. Congratulations to all the winners and a massive, massive thank you to Rocio from Smoy Photography and Alex from Alex and Dali Weddings for being our judges. Thank you so much for your time and effort. We're both so so grateful.

Helen Williams: 23:07

Yes, we definitely are, And, on that note, i think we better do a little celebration as well for our top.

Neil Redfern: 23:13

Idol World winners.

Helen Williams: 23:15

So the number one winner for this round is Jeff Tisman. Well done, Jeff. Followed in second place by James.

Neil Redfern: 23:23

Island. Amazing. Well done, James.

Helen Williams: 23:24

Then in joint third we have Kimberly Hill and Tim Campanett.

Neil Redfern: 23:29

Brilliant. Well done, Kim and Tim.

Helen Williams: 23:31

And then I don't know if it's going to be. If you do have a joint third, is it a fourth or are you then fifth?

Neil Redfern: 23:36

They're all winners.

Helen Williams: 23:37

They're all winners, but then we also have Steph and Michelle there in either fourth or fifth place, because I don't really get how joint third then works.

Neil Redfern: 23:43

Well done, stephan. Yeah, well done to everybody who won a award And, as we've just spoke about a little bit earlier in the podcast, if you win a Flash Matters award, believe us, you should be very, very proud, because it is so difficult to get one with so many amazing photographers entering. So be very, very proud.

Helen Williams: 24:02

So shall we get to the beefy drama bit.

Neil Redfern: 24:05

Yes, let's do it. So that's all our Flash Matters news for now. There is bigger news coming, but we can't talk about that just yet.

Helen Williams: 24:12

Huge announcements.

Neil Redfern: 24:13

Again, thank you, helen for implementing the member survey, for introducing the member spotlights, the live stream Hopefully there won't be any screaming but the live stream schedule as well. There's so much going on with Flash Matters now And, yeah, we're both very, very proud. Well, thank you, helen for everything you've done with that.

Helen Williams: 24:31

You are very welcome.

Neil Redfern: 24:33

So also in the Flash Matters world. Then we had a post in the Flash Matters member group the other day from Mr Chuck Gross. We all love Chuck. Those who know Chuck will know Chuck, and Chuck made a very, very interesting point in his post. He has been entering an image into the Flash Matters award which, by his own admission, included a fake sky, and by fake sky basically mean a sky replacement, and he was curious as to whether that was A allowed and B, whether that was stopping him from winning an award. And it opened up a really healthy debate.

Neil Redfern: 25:11

And the first thing to say is Helen and I produced the rules at the beginning of Flash Masters, but we knew that was always going to be learning as we went. You know Flash Masters was still less than 12 months old, so we knew it would always be tweaking things as Flash Matters grew and the community grew. And when we come up with the award, we thought you know, these were never going to be just you know, set in stone. We thought we were going to tweak in these based on the information that we'd receive and an experience of winning awards, and we never explicitly said, did we, whether things such a fake sky, should be allowed or not. Because two things. One, we were always very aware that, due to the nature of off camera lighting images, we have to be a bit more lenient than maybe other awards bodies in relation to taking things out of an image, such as light stands, soft boxes, lighting assistants, because oftentimes the shots that will win awards are composites And there's nothing wrong with that. Those images are incredible and take a lot of skill and craft to produce And we didn't want to say, well, you can't do that, because that would be ridiculous.

Neil Redfern: 26:15

So we knew that we wanted to allow that. Plus, we were always so proud and in awe of the ambassadors that we have and are so lucky to have as part of the team, and it is from those ambassadors that we select our judges, and we didn't want to say to the judges look, these are the rules you've got to stick by. We wanted to give them very much the flexibility and the respect as well of making their own decisions. We would say to them you are, in our opinion, up there amongst the very best off camera lighting photographers in the world. So please use your own discretion as to what you think is worthy or is not worthy of an award And in a way I don't. I think it's a shame that we're not going to keep that, because I love that ethos.

Neil Redfern: 26:56

You know, saying like, because it also means that each, each round, you could be slightly different, because each judge, each ambassador, is going to have a different opinion. You know and we've seen that, we've seen that play out live with the awards how some images may not a win an award until the fourth or fifth collection that they've been entered into, and it just means that you know, a particular judge has now thought, actually, you know, that's the image for me, whereas a previous judge didn't think that and that's good. Photography is subjective. Awards are very, very subjective And we don't want it just to be the same shots winning every single round. We want it to have variation. So we wanted to give our judges the respect and the say, the discretion, the ability to basically make their own decisions. But it has come to light now that I think we might need to tinker with that, because we didn't think of AI When we, when we wrote the rules a year ago. Ai wasn't what it is now.

Helen Williams: 27:48

No.

Neil Redfern: 27:49

Yeah, it's now becoming a bigger factor or a bigger thing in play that we have to discuss.

Helen Williams: 27:54

Yes. So following that post, there was obviously lots of discussion and lots of different opinions being thrown around and, whether you know, maybe we should allow a sky replacement if the photographer took that photo of the sky and it wasn't then coming from like a stock image or from a piece of software. And obviously that triggered a lot of other conversations. And yeah, there was. there was just been an awful lot of discussion around there And I will say, you know, i'm really pleased that you know, on Wednesday or the day that this podcast comes out, we know we will be sitting down with the members to sort of discuss on what we think is going to be the best way forward for us all.

Neil Redfern: 28:30

Yeah, it's such like a hot topic, if you like, and we never want just to think well, this is where that we want to do it. So, like it all, lump it. This is what we're doing. We're fully aware that there are members in the group, and members and ambassadors as well, who will be much more experienced about awards than Helen and I are. So we want to bring everybody's opinion into play. So that's why, as Helen said, we're going to have a big Zoom meeting amongst all the community, invite all the members on all the ambassadors and just see what people think and take on board all the opinions and see if there's any sort of opinion that overrides the rest.

Neil Redfern: 29:06

Because it is really difficult And when you start going down the road of thinking, how do you actually verbalize or even write down these rules? It becomes really tricky. You just have an example there, helen. Like if we take Sky replacement, for example, you've got, i think, the most obvious way that people would use the term cheating I don't think that's the right word or shouldn't be allowed is pre-bought skies.

Neil Redfern: 29:29

In other words skies that the photographer hasn't produced themselves. They've not took that image. They bought off I don't know like a Luminar sky or whatever it is, but they've bought the sky from a website and then they've used it within their own image. That, i think we can agree, is probably off limits.

Helen Williams: 29:46

I think so. Having said that, though, I am thinking out loud, and another thing to consider is that not only photographers aren't just wedding photographers and I know from doing the survey the vast majority are but we also have a lot of photographers doing studio photography, And I remember, as someone who did used to do headshots and a little bit of family photography, et cetera, and something that we may not have considered is that the use of digital backdrops as well Backdrops, yeah.

Helen Williams: 30:15

You can get digital backdrops. Well, if someone shoots on a green screen but they've still lit an image and lit someone perfectly and done some rim light and they've tried to light for this digital backdrop. So if we're saying no digital skies or skies that aren't taken, how does that then apply to the studio category with the use of digital backdrops?

Neil Redfern: 30:34

Well, one thing just to say we're having a conversation here, but this conversation we're having on the podcast. This is not us coming up with the rules live, because I say, two days time we're going to be bringing on board all the opinions, having a huge discussion between all the community, which is how we always want to do things. We'll always be democratic with everything. But then we thought it's just good to have an open chat about it, and that's a good one. At my gut instinct, we'll all have different opinions. You may have a different opinion to me is that if it's a backdrop that is already in that studio, wherever it would be, then that's fine, because that is part of the photograph. If it's a backdrop that's been added at a later date, then that's where the issue comes.

Helen Williams: 31:11

Yeah, i just think, as someone who you know, we haven't ran a studio. I'm still not actually sure, and that's maybe something we could speak to our studio members. Just how popular are these digital backgrounds, is it almost? I can't answer that I don't run a studio. Are they now becoming, you know, just a common place or a commonly used tool within studio photography, rather than buying and having all of these roles that you may dirty or crease, i don't know And I don't know either. In terms of reaching out to our membership.

Neil Redfern: 31:42

we should have a bit more information on One thing that we could do, though, is have one rule for studio and one for weddings.

Neil Redfern: 31:48

Ah, maybe yeah, that's the one way of doing it, because I don't know enough about studio photography either. Even that the issue of fake skies brings up lots of questions because, say, you're not using a fake sky, in other words, like the sky that you're using within your photograph is as it was when it was taken. Yeah, but you've used a softbox And, as we said before, we're very much in the opinion that you're allowed to clone out. Or, traditionally, how you would do things would be to take two photographs, one with the softbox in. So and again, the reason that we often do that is that the closer the light source, the better the light, so to get the best light, more than not, you're going to have your light source, ie the speed light, the softbox in the shot in the frame. So that'd be your first photograph. Thank you, this is what I do myself.

Neil Redfern: 32:30

The last one I shot, i did this, where you then take away the softbox Without moving the camera. You take a second photograph and then you copy that part of the photograph where the softbox was onto the original one. So it's a composite photograph, but you're using the two elements. So you're basically cloning out the softbox, and that's how you traditionally do it. And the sky was there. However, what if you're working on your? this is again hypothetical. What if you're working on your own and you just clone out using the healing brush called Generosity Fill? clone out just the softbox and say 20% of that sky is then generated from AI. Is that?

Helen Williams: 33:06

cheating. Well, i'd like to say no, just because I'm someone who never, ever remembers to take the softbox out.

Neil Redfern: 33:12

Yes, you're getting a red card. You're cheating.

Helen Williams: 33:15

Yeah. so I'm gonna stick out for everyone else who shoots on their own and always forgets to take the speed light out, and I'm gonna say I think that should be allowed.

Neil Redfern: 33:25

Well, as it happens, i actually agree with you. But then what if the softbox is bigger in the frame? What if it's taking up 80% of the sky? Do you see what I mean? This way, it comes really, really difficult. Then the other thing that people will no doubt say and it's a great conversation is what if the sky at the time that you took that photograph wasn't that great? but in the midst of taking that portrait session, the sky gets better. So you then, five minutes later, you take a similar photograph, but you prefer the first, the couple in the first photograph because you're in terms of weddings. So you basically merge the two. So you're taking both parts of the photograph. You've taken the sky, you've taken the couple, and they were taken within minutes of each other, but you have composited them, composited them, yeah, composited.

Helen Williams: 34:10

Well, we don't have to compost people.

Neil Redfern: 34:13

Either way, though, you've merged, though you blended those two images together, you took them both, but there was a gap of five minutes in between. Is that wrong? Because if you allow that, then what happens if you say, well, this guy that I took three years ago of the Northern Lights when I was in Iceland, that I took it, can I use that? Yeah, well, it feels like that's wrong. Yeah, that feels wrong, but why? It's the same principle.

Helen Williams: 34:41

Because, well, the Northern Lights has probably taken a completely different part of the world where you'd see the Northern Lights, and you're probably not gonna get that when you're shooting in crew. Yeah, i agree. By the way, the Northern Lights over Stoke on Tracks, i do agree with you, and this is always me playing devil's advocate, so.

Neil Redfern: 34:56

But it's all about here and this is why everything's so subjective and that's good, and please that photography is not black and white. It would be boring. But then you start saying, okay, if you allow that scenario where the sky was taken five minutes after the actual portrait in the same location. What if it was taken two hours later? What if it's taken the day before?

Helen Williams: 35:18

No.

Neil Redfern: 35:20

So where do you draw the line?

Helen Williams: 35:22

One and a half hours later. Now I think like 15 minutes, for no particular reason. Where did you get that number from Helen? My head It's so, so difficult.

Neil Redfern: 35:34

I think what we can say and we've had some discussion offline, as it were, with some of the members, online, though, but they were offline, if that makes any sense. They happened online, but they weren't up in the group, and I agree with this as a general thinking is that you should be allowed, i believe, to use a number of images and blend them together, composite them together if they were taken with the camera not moving. In other words, you could do these amazing group shots that we see people like Jess Tisman doing. Drew Dodd is another amazing, and we've seen lots and lots of them, and they are astounding. I love them. I need to give one of these a go myself. For those photographs, the camera is remaining static, or more or less it might be handheld, but if it is, it's more or less in the same position. Usually, you would use a tripod, so I think that has been completely fine.

Helen Williams: 36:25

Well, we have to allow that, although it's going to be loads of our award winners. You're like eh, eh, eh, yeah, exactly but I think that should be allowed.

Neil Redfern: 36:32

I have no issue with that. But then the problem comes what if? then you you know, there is an argument to say that all the people within those photographs were not there at the same time. You could take those over a period of hours. Say, you get all the bridal parties together. it's a bridal party shot, but one of the bridesmaids is in a room. Oh, she's not there. So, okay, we'll add her in when she comes back downstairs. Well, all the rest of the bridal party have gone, so there might be a gap of 15, 20 minutes before that photograph is completed. Is that wrong? I think it's fine if the camera doesn't move, because it's still the same, you know.

Helen Williams: 37:06

As long as it's the same composition.

Neil Redfern: 37:07

Yeah, the photographer has gone into that. The author of that photograph is visualising what they want it to look like, and I think that is that should be rewarded. What I'm really against and I know we spoke about this and I think you are as well is anything at all that is added. Firstly, this will be a red line, a line in the sand, a red flag, all those metaphors is anything that is added that has not been created by the camera of the photographer. I think that's definitely a no-no. In other words, typing in now Generative Fill, which I'm sure everybody's aware of this.

Neil Redfern: 37:39

What Generative Fill is is a new feature in the current Photoshop beta which basically will allow you to add anything at all that you can imagine into a photograph. So you can just draw an area of photograph say, you could draw around part of the sky and type in add silhouette photograph of flying birds And then, before you know it, you've got some flying birds and it can make photographs look really dramatic. But I think that's wrong. That should surely not be congratulated when it comes to awards anyway, Yeah, I think I'm going to agree.

Neil Redfern: 38:09

That's digital art, isn't it?

Helen Williams: 38:11

Yeah, definitely, And you know I'll say it's just a whole can of worms in how we're going to actually put rules to paper or words to paper and go well, not paper, don't do that anymore. Pen and paper Yeah remember that. Yeah, but to actually come up with a set of amended rules I can guarantee we keep coming up with.

Neil Redfern: 38:33

But what is? Yeah little scenarios.

Helen Williams: 38:35

Let's add, in a whole community of going. yeah, but what if?

Neil Redfern: 38:37

And I go Well this is the problem, isn't it? Everyone has an opinion and everyone's opinion is going to differ, because these are not black and white scenarios. These are areas of gray and everyone's line will be different about where they think. Good and bad lie. And some people say, oh, you know, you should be allowing that, because it's just it's artistic creation. You're still having to create it all. So, yeah, it should all be allowed. Others, more authentic, maybe photography, or more traditional photography, but no, if you've not created everything in camera in one exposure, forget it. That shouldn't be allowed. It's very, very difficult. Everyone's got an opinion and everyone's opinion is going to be different. You're never going to please everyone. That's one thing that you can be sure of.

Helen Williams: 39:18

You will never, ever, come to a scenario here where everyone's thinking yeah, i totally agree with all those rules, someone will have an issue, unfortunately, Yeah, i could totally see if I was someone looking at, like when we did the member spotlights of Jesse and Arlene, who have the most incredible Milky Way photography with couples.

Helen Williams: 39:37

And obviously like they're a huge sky And, to be honest, before I met Oh, I haven't met them in person. Before I knew them, We were getting these images soon. I was like surely, like, can this be real? And it really is. We've seen the raw files. We've seen the straight out of camera. These guys have really spent the time to learn how to do those properly And they absolutely nailed them. They're phenomenal. But if I went somewhere and I went to like Scotland somewhere and I took some epic Milky Way photos, I can see why people would be like, no, they should be included. Because I'd be like, well, no, I want to use them. I'm really proud of them. But then at the same time, yeah, we're always going to be battling the pride that comes from taking a good sky photo or and wanting to use that because you know you did take it and you are proud of it. But yeah, we're not going to please everyone.

Neil Redfern: 40:26

No, you never, ever will. It's impossible. Now a couple of things that have been brought up which we can just quickly talk about. is one people suggesting well, if you've got any doubts about whether anything was created in camera or not, everyone just submits raw files, and I think it's important that we will have to say something live stream, that we do know from from the back end of creating flashmasters, that it is really difficult. It's impossible from a logistics point of view to accept such huge, huge file sizes. We just can't do it. The website won't be able to handle it. A Sony a one file can be 50, 60 meg And we're in. each member is allowed to upload 10 images. That's like half a gig each, every single round per member. That's just impossible. What we could think about doing if there is any debate amongst the judges about whether something maybe is is a little bit, you know, dodgy in terms of what's been entered, we could then ask for particular raw files for clarification. I think that works.

Neil Redfern: 41:24

But what we can't do it's just going to have to unfortunately just be a no is accept raw files at the point of entry. That's, that's never going to work.

Helen Williams: 41:32

Yeah, i would just like to think that you know, get really using this time over the last 12 months to really get to know our members that I do believe that they're really high level of integrity amongst our members And you know where's the fun in winning something when, essentially, you've cheated, if you know, if you're breaking the rules and he's submitting something that other people won't because they're following them, that's just not winning, is it Is? yeah.

Neil Redfern: 41:56

I agree And that actually, if Ben Connolly is listening to this podcast, i'd like to know what he thinks about Australia's antics in the last Ashes test. We're talking about cheating Anyway anyway.

Neil Redfern: 42:06

I'm sure more people don't even know what cricket is who listen to this and let alone watch it. The other thing that's been brought up he's potentially added in a new category, but I'm really personally, i'm really against this, and the reason is is because each of our subcategories, if you like, which are weddings, studio and environmental, will eventually feed into and oh well, the over. At the moment, all you see is the overall leaderboard on the website, but eventually we will have three leaderboards for each of those categories, which each feed into the overall leaderboard. Now the issue I can see down the road, if we go down at the road of adding in a new category, let's call it digital art is that, say, we have a member who has won, say, five goals in digital art and we have a member that has won five goals in weddings Weddings is more the authentic photographs that have not used anything AI and the other category, digital art, is a category that is completely open to whatever you want and they each win five goals and that means on the leaderboard they're going to be in equal, joint, first place.

Neil Redfern: 43:10

I can see a dispute then between the authentic photographer saying, well, i should be at the top because that person is just using fake skies, generative fill, all that AI stuff. Whereas I've gone out, i've learnt the craft. I've attended workshops to get better with my camera lighting and that education has led me to be in a position where I've won five goals through really hard work. That person is just at the computer. That's what.

Neil Redfern: 43:37

I see and I see that's been very divisive, and the last thing we want is to cause any division within the community. So, personally, from just my opinion, the extra category for digital art will not work, because I just think it's going to cause arguments. I just think, ultimately, we should be here to celebrate the best off-camera lighting photography keyword in the world, and we should be celebrating those people who have spent days, months, years honing their craft to produce the absolute best images that they can as near as damn it in camera as they can. And that is what I think we should be shouting about and pushing those people rather than those that just think well, I can be a bit slapdash on this shoot, because when I get home I'll just put a fake sky on it and it'll be fine. I don't think that should be celebrating the same way.

Neil Redfern: 44:26

Personally, against only the personal opinion and, as we said, everyone's going to have a different opinion. One of my favourite phrases is always that a camel is a horse designed by committee, and that's the danger that we're going to have that if everyone's opinion, we try and take everyone's opinion on board and fit it all in, it becomes this horrible mishmash of that. No one really knows where they stand.

Neil Redfern: 44:46

So, we do need to at some point become very definitive rules, but we do definitely need to hear the opinions of all the members and the ambassadors.

Helen Williams: 44:54

Yeah, and I think that we've not really seen for many, many years the progression within what we have available to us as photographers in such a very long time. I think it's been really unprecedented that the advent of AI and how that is affecting or can affect our work and our job. And I think, when we came up with flashmasses, we have what we stand for and what we're committed to and, as you said, that's recognising and celebrating the best off-camera flash photography in the world. And while we'll do everything that we can to make sure that we're moving with the times and that we are aware of all the advancements, etc. Yeah, i still think we do need to try as best as we can to stay true to our mission statement because, like I said, otherwise, it all just gets a little bit blurry, doesn't it?

Neil Redfern: 45:40

Yeah, i totally, totally agree. But you know, what I am very proud of and we felt this on the day that that post was made is how healthy the discussion was in the group, and I would thank all the members who participated in that debate for that. Because this is such a hot topic, it can easily get derailed. People start having arguments and you know, oh, you shouldn't be like this, this is wrong, that shouldn't one. Why didn't this win? Why did that win? That's never, ever happened, and I'm so proud of that, and that is testament to the members and how supportive they all are and how respectful they all are of each other as well.

Neil Redfern: 46:17

So thank you, ted one for that, and I'd like to think that the way that we're going about this, which is by basically garnering all of your opinion to make the best set of rules that we can all agree with, is definitely the right way to go. But it's just really nice to see And that includes Chuck, who made the post, and I thank Chuck for that, because if Chuck didn't make that post, i didn't raise it, somebody else would have done. So it's good that it's been brought up and it's something that we do need to get on. You know, get on top of now.

Helen Williams: 46:45

Yeah, people are just so respectful And didn't bring it up. And then that's even worse because we don't know the people having these thoughts. So, yeah, that was very helpful And that's where the survey is really coming into its own. Yeah, exactly.

Neil Redfern: 46:55

Yeah, and we have. The survey idea was actually ready a few days before that post, but when the post happened we thought, actually, let's just like, rather than throwing loads of different subjects into the group, let's just talk about the fake sky issue, as it were, first, and then we'll implement the survey. And the survey has been really enlightening, hasn't it? And it's just been good timing as well.

Helen Williams: 47:15

Yeah, and think that's open now till Friday, the. I'm going to say Friday the 14th, but it feels like is it really Friday the 14th? It is Friday the 14th of July, so you've got up until then to complete that survey and give us as much detail as possible.

Neil Redfern: 47:30

And I'm not writing anything in Helen that we're also going to be producing a very, very similar survey for non members.

Helen Williams: 47:36

Yes. So for those of you who are listening, you haven't signed up to Flash Masters yet. You will be receiving an email very shortly.

Neil Redfern: 47:42

Assuming you're on the main list. So if you're not on the main list, please add yourself to the mailing list.

Helen Williams: 47:46

Yes, go to the Flashmasters website, scroll down to the bottom and there's a sign to the mailing list there.

Neil Redfern: 47:51

Yeah.

Helen Williams: 47:51

So put yourselves on there, And we also have some prizes available for those who do complete this survey Not for all of you. You can enter to win a prize.

Neil Redfern: 48:00

Yes, yes, exactly. So it's definitely worth your while, your time, but we're really, really interested, not just from hearing from the members, but also from the non members. And just before we finish the podcast, i think Helen and I are just convinced that there are people out there who will be thinking about joining Flash Masters, who maybe are just a bit tentative because they think that they're maybe and I hate to say this because it's a horrible phrase but maybe not good enough. Yeah, helen and I are so keen to speak to you, if that is the case, and try to assure you that you are in, or you will be in, the most supportive and caring community of photographers.

Neil Redfern: 48:34

If that is you And we've desperately want to help you to grow if you are that little bit tentative about using Flash, that what Helen and I will do is welcome you to email us We will put a better system in place but just emails at hello at flashmastersco or just send us a DM on Instagram And we can arrange like a 10, 15 minute Zoom chat with you just to introduce ourselves and answer any questions that you may have, because please, please, understand that everybody is always learning off camera flash somewhere, a little bit further down the road than others. But we are all still learning and everyone's opinion is valid. And if you are that little bit scared, then we would desperately, desperately love to speak to you and assure you that you've got nothing to be worried about.

Helen Williams: 49:20

Yeah, i'm just going to pick up one thing. So from well, the day that we're recording this podcast, i put out Kimberly Hills.

Neil Redfern: 49:27

Member Spotlight. Member Spotlight, that was it, so that was the word I wanted. Maybe we should actually do one on the podcast. Maybe, member spotlight of the week, we could speak about a couple of the answers.

Helen Williams: 49:36

We can have a little look. So yeah, we'll start this feature right now.

Neil Redfern: 49:39

Yeah, okay, then do we. that means we need a jingle.

Helen Williams: 49:43

Go on then.

Neil Redfern: 49:45

Member Spotlight, spot, spotlight light. It would be improved for next episode.

Helen Williams: 49:52

God, that was. It was So spot light.

Neil Redfern: 49:57

What's that song? Member Flash Light.

Helen Williams: 50:01

But it was flash light, wasn't it? What was the?

Neil Redfern: 50:02

song. We'll just, we'll change it. Spot light of the week.

Helen Williams: 50:07

Okay, i prefer that one. Okay, so today's brand new feature is featuring Kimberly Hill, who's yeah, her questionnaire and everything about her images are online on the blog, so please go check it out. But one of the questions we always ask everyone because it's it's just nice to know is what's the best or biggest benefit of being a Flash Masters member. Kimberly's reply was the recognition for flash photography. The community is epic. No stuck up folk in here, and I just love that. No, stuck up folk Yeah, we always like to.

Neil Redfern: 50:39

Thank you. Yeah, that's really really lovely. Another thing as well from a techie boring point of view if you do fill in the member spot like, you get a really good URL. Just looking that like Kim's URL is flashmastersco slash new slash member spot like Kimberly Hill photography And that's basically like a portfolio for Kim as well. You look on the page her work he's stunning. It really is So yeah, if it does land on that page after googling your company name, then they're going to be wowed.

Helen Williams: 51:05

Yeah, it is fantastic to share and see those. But I think the biggest thing under that question what's the biggest best part of being part of Flash Masters? So many people have commented on how incredible community is, So yeah, we love to have you join us.

Neil Redfern: 51:20

That's why we say that Flash Masters is community, education and award. Whatever way we phrase that, award is never first. It's always about community and education first.

Helen Williams: 51:30

So, yes, i think that I think it's almost time to wrap up, neil.

Neil Redfern: 51:32

It is indeed Well. thank you very much for joining us.

Helen Williams: 51:36

For joining you Yeah. Well, you're very welcome, i was so used to having a guest.

Neil Redfern: 51:40

I was thanking them And they were not even here.

Helen Williams: 51:42

Well, you know, it was a big effort to walk from the office to the living room to sit down with me.

Neil Redfern: 51:45

Well, thank you, helen, for joining the podcast.

Helen Williams: 51:48

Why? thank you, Mr Neil Redfern.

Neil Redfern: 51:50

And yeah, and thank you as always for listening, As always, if you would like to join us in the Flash Masters community, you can do so at flashmasters. co But yeah, thank you very much again for listening and we will see you next time.

Helen Williams: 52:00

And don't forget to keep flashing.

Neil Redfern: 52:04

And keep it real.