Should you use flash during a wedding ceremony? It's always been a controversial question in wedding photography groups, with photographers often having a firm opinion one way or the other. In this episode we talk about this in more detail, drawing on our experiences from recent weddings where the unpredictable British weather forced Helen to make this decision!
We also discuss the game-changing role of effective communication in wedding photography. This part is inspired by a recent incident involving a bride who had to book a new photographer due to poor communication from her initial option. We'll share how this could have been avoided with tools like Studio Ninja, that not only elevate your business but make you appear more professional. We'll also touch on Neil's new three-day workshop, Shine, that's all about shooting, editing and fostering a positive mindset.
So, buckle up! We're about to embark on an enlightening journey of flash photography in weddings.
Join us in the Flash Masters community:
Website: https://flashmasters.co/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/flashmasters/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@flash-masters
Flash Masters is hosted by:
Helen Williams: https://www.instagram.com/helenwilliamsphotography/
Neil Redfern: https://www.instagram.com/neilredfern/
Should you use flash during a wedding ceremony? It's always been a controversial question in wedding photography groups, with photographers often having a firm opinion one way or the other. In this episode we talk about this in more detail, drawing on our experiences from recent weddings where the unpredictable British weather forced Helen to make this decision!
We also discuss the game-changing role of effective communication in wedding photography. This part is inspired by a recent incident involving a bride who had to book a new photographer due to poor communication from her initial option. We'll share how this could have been avoided with tools like Studio Ninja, that not only elevate your business but make you appear more professional. We'll also touch on Neil's new three-day workshop, Shine, that's all about shooting, editing and fostering a positive mindset.
So, buckle up! We're about to embark on an enlightening journey of flash photography in weddings.
Join us in the Flash Masters community:
Website: https://flashmasters.co/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/flashmasters/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@flash-masters
Flash Masters is hosted by:
Helen Williams: https://www.instagram.com/helenwilliamsphotography/
Neil Redfern: https://www.instagram.com/neilredfern/
Welcome to the Flash Masters podcast. I'm Horatio of Horatio Photography and I'm proud to be a member of the Flash masters community. Flash masters recognizes and celebrates the best flash photography through awards, education and community. To find out more and to join us, visit flashmastersco. Here are your hosts, helen Williams and Neil Redfern.
Neil Redfern:Hi everybody, welcome to episode 48 of the Flash masters podcast, with me, neil Redfern, and me, helen Williams, and in today's episode we're going to be talking about something that's a little bit controversial, perhaps your last two weddings, helen. Due to the amazing help of the British weather, you used flash during a wedding ceremony.
Helen Williams:I did. I flashed all of the wedding guests during the most inappropriate time.
Neil Redfern:So we're going to talk about that, because I know that within Facebook groups and things, there is like a very an opinion, shall we say, about flash during a ceremony. But I know that it was needed for you, so I'm looking forward to talk about this. But, helen, first of all, do we have any Flashmasters news?
Helen Williams:Of course we do this. One's not even on the list, Neil. But, I wanted to say that I have just sent off all of the entries for round four of the Flashmasters awards to our incredible judges, Moira and Arno, and the entries are out of this world.
Neil Redfern:Oh, I've not actually seen them yet, but I do know. I think we had a record number this time, didn't we?
Helen Williams:We did. We had a record number and the standard was insane. It's absolutely incredible to see the growth within the group each round as it comes along. I really think there's been so many members whose quality of submissions has skyrocketed recently.
Neil Redfern:Interesting. I need to have a look at them. I'm always intrigued to see them, but I haven't had time yet. But yeah, so thank you in advance, because there's now more work to be done for our amazing judges, because there's more images. So thank you, moira and Arno.
Helen Williams:Yes, so that was the first bit that I didn't put down in any notes. So there you go, surprise.
Neil Redfern:I like it.
Helen Williams:And then on the day that this podcast is being released, which I believe is Wednesday, the 9th of September it will be 2023. We have a live stream in the Flashmasters Facebook group with the one and only Ben Connolly, who will be critiquing our members' images.
Neil Redfern:Amazing, I have to say. As always, good day, ben, and I will say that on the stream.
Helen Williams:That wasn't bad.
Neil Redfern:But, yeah, critique streams are so useful. We've done a few of them now in the Flashmasters group and I think everyone has been so, so useful, invaluable even in terms of helping to see images in a different way. And I think the thing that people often forget about critique streams is it's not so much about the critique of the images that you're looking at there. It's more about giving you tips and this little voice in your head for when you're next shooting, you'll have Ben's voice there saying, oh, remember to think about this or remember to think about that, and that's why these streams are so, so good. So I'm looking forward to this.
Helen Williams:I really am. I know that Ben has entered a whole bunch of competitions and a lot of the ones such as WPPI and the print competitions and the ones where, literally, you have a proper score and there's a very rigorous sort of like methodical judging process there and I think Ben, having entered those so many times, is going to, you know, come in with a really critical but good critical eye on the images and will have some really good feedback and food for thought.
Neil Redfern:I agree. I agree, and the things that I always want to say about critique as well is even if you haven't actually submitted images yourself, so your own work isn't going to be critiqued, it's still invaluable to watch critique sessions of other people's work because you will still learn so much, and often during critiques there are recurring themes that come up, so it's still so, so useful to watch those critiques, even if your work's not actually in there itself. And as always, as with every stream that we do in the FlashMasters community, the replay will be available to rewatch for as long as you're our member in the FlashMasters video zone. Thank you in advance, ben.
Helen Williams:Yeah, well, fantastic ambassadors we've got who are here judging awards, giving critiques and really sort of giving extra value to all of our members.
Neil Redfern:Again, we always need to say thank you to Ben, because for Ben, who's based in Australia, this again what's his start time?
Helen Williams:I think it's about 6am for him.
Neil Redfern:Oh, Ben, we're so grateful. We'll also be talking as well a little bit about Ben's upcoming workshop in the UK. Ben is coming to the UK this November for a five day workshop. I know that the majority of the place have already gone. I think it's 11 out of 15 places have already gone. I think they've also gone almost exclusively to FlashMasters members too.
Helen Williams:Yes.
Neil Redfern:But there are four places left that we'll be talking about Ben's plans for his workshop on the live stream on Wednesday.
Helen Williams:Yes, and it's also been sent out to everyone who subscribed to our FlashMasters mailing list today as well.
Neil Redfern:Oh, this is the day we're recording, but there's also other news into the main list, actually, because you've also sent something else out to them, haven't you?
Helen Williams:Oh, yes, anyone who's listening?
Neil Redfern:There's extra news.
Helen Williams:Yes, you can win FlashMasters news extra oh yes, you can win a MagMod professional Flash Kit too, worth $200 or maybe a little bit more Helen, I want to win one.
Neil Redfern:What do I do to win this?
Helen Williams:Well, you need to look back through your mailing list or have a look on the FlashMasters page on Facebook, where there will be a link to where you can enter. So we're asking people now who aren't members of FlashMasters. So if you do listen to the podcast but you haven't signed up, we would love to hear your thoughts just on your sort of preconceptions or your thoughts on FlashMasters as a community from the outside, from an outside perspective. So if you're not a member, we would like you to take four to five minutes just to fill in a little survey and at the end you can enter to win a MagMod professional Flash Kit too.
Neil Redfern:Amazing. So this is specifically for non-members. Yes, Thank you. You there. I can see you, Yep, you're driving well, keep your eyes on the road, but we're talking to you. I know you're on the fence about joining. Please fill in this form, because we'd love to hear your reasons why maybe you've not joined. So it's you? Yes, you Cool.
Helen Williams:Fantastic.
Neil Redfern:So, yes, and then they can win a professional flash. I can't remember what's included in there, but I think it's all the good stuff, isn't it? A MagMod grid, a sphere gels?
Helen Williams:I think it's the bounce, then the correction gels.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, a load of MagMod stuff. Basically, yes, yeah, you can win that Amazing.
Helen Williams:So, before you then go on to the next bit of the podcast, I have some very important news that I'd love to share with everyone.
Neil Redfern:Do you? This is not in the notes.
Helen Williams:No, it's not, and it's not even flashbastards or photography related.
Intro:What.
Helen Williams:But I'm very proud of myself, of what I love, to tell the world that I'm someone who loves my plants. And you're going to be like what are you on about?
Neil Redfern:Jesse Amora.
Helen Williams:Yes, I love Jesse Amora plant, but I also like green plants, and I'm thrilled to just discover that, after taking two clippings from my favourite plant, who I call cheddar because he's a cheese plant, I took two cuttings. Without really knowing how to take cuttings, I put them in some water and both of them now have roots. So I now have what I call mini-shedders and I've managed to grow two new cheese plants from one.
Neil Redfern:Is this hell of a technical bonus of the week?
Helen Williams:Yes, that works. Yeah, I'm just very, very pleased with myself, because I didn't know much about taking cuttings and now I've got two extra cheese plants. So there you go Well.
Neil Redfern:thank you for sharing that. I will sleep better tonight because I've been worried.
Helen Williams:You're very welcome. Just wait till I make a massive mess now when I start potting them and pulling out all of the compost and things for that. Anyway, I just thought I'd share that because I'm really proud of myself Excellent.
Neil Redfern:Well, it's often you are proud of yourself, so that's good.
Helen Williams:No, it's not.
Neil Redfern:Thank you you should be proud many times. In fact, you should be feeling especially proud of yourself this week, because not only did you shoot two weddings at the weekend, which is never easy, but the images from those weddings were amazing, and that's what I want to talk about in this podcast.
Helen Williams:Aw, thank you so much, neil. I know I'm not the only one smashing things out of the park. You've been very busy too. So what's been going on with you, mr Redfern?
Neil Redfern:This week because I had no weddings this weekend. I was going to shoot with you, but you said you got it, which you obviously did. Sounds good, I did, sounds good, I did, I did, I did, I did, I did, I did, I did, I did, I did, I did, I did, I did, I did, I did. So I've been working on two things, one of which I can't talk about. Ask me about it.
Helen Williams:Oh, come on, Neil, tell us more, tell us more.
Neil Redfern:I could not tell you about it.
Helen Williams:Oh, look at you, mr Fancy Pans, mr Ryefsign, dendy Hayes. Keep on asking, keep on asking. Please just tell us I cannot tell you.
Neil Redfern:I've been making a couple of YouTube videos about something which will be, I think, launched within a very few days of the podcast going out, so you already know about it anyway.
Helen Williams:I do. It's like I'm ready to like, just shout out, but I won't.
Neil Redfern:Ask me again, Please.
Helen Williams:Neil, just tell us what it is.
Neil Redfern:However many times you ask, I cannot tell you.
Helen Williams:Oh, mr NDA, You're such a fancy pan.
Neil Redfern:Well, maybe talk about it on the next podcast or the one after that, though. So I've been working on that and also, quite exciting news for me, I've just released details, all by the time this podcast is out, because at the time of recording, I'm about to release the details of a new workshop, and, rather than it being one day, as I've always done in the past, I've been running workshops solo now for seven or eight years this is my first ever three day workshop. Yeah, it's daunting but exciting.
Helen Williams:Tell us all about it. I need to know more.
Neil Redfern:I won't say too much, but yeah, it's going to be a three day workshop called Shine. Let it shine.
Helen Williams:You've been inspired by your trips to Delavit, Manor and Gary Barlow's house. Seven years yeah.
Neil Redfern:I wanted one where I was taking inspiration from Jesse Moira with their distilled workshop and Fusion just sounds very cool, doesn't it? If Shine's quite as cool, but Shine is in relation to oh, I can feel it Distilled Fusion, just Shine, give some jazz hands. You don't need to say it with jazz hands. If I just call it Shine, then it's cool.
Helen Williams:Oh, ok, if you say so, but Shine can have different meanings.
Neil Redfern:It can literally mean that your you know your work shines. Flash, in a way, is shining, yes, but you can also shine as a photographer. This is not selling, sorry, oh yeah.
Helen Williams:Neil, it's a great idea. You're very cool.
Neil Redfern:Yes, so it's a three day workshop. One and a half of the days is going to be shooting, so a heavy, heavy emphasis on shooting. And also I'm going to be covering editing, so you'll be able to see me editing the images that I've taken on the workshop.
Neil Redfern:So it won't just be other images. Anything that I take, you'll see me editing and just my whole approach to wedding photography. On night one, for example, I'll be talking about mindset, how I pre-visualize images, how I shoot documentary, the equipment that I use. I think it's important to talk about self-belief as well, so we'll be doing that. But what I'm really just looking forward to is this workshop is a residential workshop, so all of us it's going to be 11 places and everyone will be staying at the venue, and we saw that a couple of weeks ago, didn't we? For the first time.
Helen Williams:And it's incredible.
Neil Redfern:It's a huge venue that they're actually considering opening it up as a wedding venue, aren't they? In the future, and it'll be hugely successful if it did. But yeah, it's a huge country house in North Wales and it's just perfect for this, so everyone who attends will have their own double bedroom. It's great for shooting indoors, because it's going to be in October, so chances are it's not going to be great weather, but we've got loads of indoor space, loads of communal spaces as well, where we can also sit down together, eat together, work together, just chill out. It's got an amazing snooker room Drinking together. Yeah, it's got a huge full-size snooker table in there. Look at that. And it's also got amazing grounds. So it's just going to be perfect as a retreat as well as a workshop. So I'm so excited. It's just scary doing three days. It's going to be intense, but in a good way.
Helen Williams:Yeah, I will agree. I'm very, very excited and, having been to the venue, there are so many opportunities. I can just imagine they're not getting too much sleep and that even when cameras are meant to go down? I think there's going to be a lot of like after hours shooting and opportunities and, yeah, I think everyone's going to be very, very excited when they arrive at what they can create.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, and I think one of the things that people often underestimate when it comes to workshops not just mine, anybody's workshops is how useful it is to meet other photographers, because those bonds that you can form and I'd like to think even more so when you're in a workshop it's going to last for multiple days. You're going to form really good relationships, friendships and bonds that will last way beyond the workshop. And there's no better time than doing that, than over drinks and over an evening meal and stuff, and I'm really convinced that everyone will get on so well and that will just be another huge advantage of having multiple days. And I'm sure that those photographers there will become, say, firm friends and maybe share work with each other afterwards and you know you can just use those people to lean on and to ask for help and stuff like that. So I'm so excited I don't think I'll be able to go back to one day workshops after this one.
Helen Williams:Yeah, I've got no doubt whatsoever that this is going to be a huge success. I think it's something that's been sort of missing within the UK marketing industry as well. And yeah, let's just be honest, everyone loves steel, redfern and yeah, anything you put out there people will want to be a part of, because we know how hard you work and you are going to put everything into it.
Neil Redfern:I will obviously give it absolutely everything, and I'm going to have a lot of planning to do in the lead up. We've also got multiple models as well. They're now secured, which is really good. So, yeah, it's going to be really exciting. I'm really looking forward to it. Again, just to stress, it's not just the only workshop going on. Ben Connelly's workshop is coming up in November, which is five days, and Benny's going to cover everything. Plus, as we spoke about on last week's podcast with Jesse and Moira, they've got their own workshop coming up in Leeds this November as well.
Helen Williams:just before nine dots. Yes, I will make sure. So lots of opportunities to learn. Yeah, I will try to put another email out towards the end of this week, maybe just recapping all of the workshops coming up in the UK towards the end of this year as well. It's a busy one. We've got so many opportunities for all of our members and non-members.
Neil Redfern:Yep, exactly what we were talking before, about you feeling proud, and no more so should you feel proud than at this weekend's weddings, which you shot, where, it's fair to say, the weather didn't play ball it was rather inclement. But I have to say I know I've said this to you, but I want to say it again I was so impressed with the images that you produced, not just throughout the whole day obviously they're always great but in particular, the wedding ceremony photographs, because and I can't stress this enough and when this podcast comes out, what I'd like to do is share some of the images that you've took this weekend and the behind the scenes of what the situation you were based in, because how to say this? The ceremony venues in particular that you were shooting in were ridiculously dark and, for natural light, well, is that the way of saying it? Just awful, really horrible. But you produce stunning images because you've used flash during the ceremony.
Neil Redfern:So I thought, as soon as I saw these, that's a great thing to talk about on the podcast, because, honestly, one of the first things I said to you was what do you do if you don't use flash? Now, obviously that you know. If it was me in that situation. I also admitted to you that I probably wouldn't have used flash. I would have used constant lights, led lights. But either way, if you're not using off-camera lighting, what would you have done, george? Just talk about what the situations were like during the weddings ceremonies in particular.
Helen Williams:Yeah, so for the first wedding. First of all, I'll say I booked the wedding that I did on Friday should have been an outdoor wedding. Both of them should have had outdoor ceremonies.
Neil Redfern:Just to think sorry sorry to interrupt that's between us, is that four of the past four weddings that we shot collectively, that's four should have been four outdoor ceremonies that's four that didn't happen outside in the British summertime.
Helen Williams:I don't think I haven't had an outdoor ceremony. I think nearly all of my weddings for the last few months should have been outdoors and nothing happened.
Neil Redfern:It's crazy, isn't it? Anyway, that's just my little moan of the week, but sorry, yes, anyway, carry on.
Helen Williams:That's all right. So the first of the two weddings I did. They only booked me three days before the wedding. First of all, that was a nice cheeky surprise, do you know? Why that was. Well, the bride gave the photography booking to the groom. That was his one thing to do apart from the suits.
Neil Redfern:Sorry, I shall brought this up. The groom was listening.
Helen Williams:Yeah, the group did book someone and you know, originally I think they were pleased. However, they didn't go into too much detail. But the bride is having a massive panic and saying that communication was really, really poor and essentially the only sort of email he'd ever replied to, the one that they booked was if you wanted to be fed on us on the day. But she didn't miss out so much because the food was terrible. But that's another story. See, apparently the bride wasn't very pleased with the communication.
Neil Redfern:Did you ask the question? Who it was?
Helen Williams:Well, I did, but she only gave me. She was like oh, um.
Intro:We can bleep stuff. Something or other she doesn't remember Okay.
Helen Williams:She only gave me a first name and not a surname, so I don't actually know who it was?
Neil Redfern:I was just curious. Stuff like this is really good gossip, isn't it?
Helen Williams:Well, yeah, it's just interesting to know that communication with our couples is so important. And she said, you know, instantly she gave me a phone call on Tuesday, was booking me for the Friday and you know, because of Studio Ninja, like massive shout out to Chris and his team at Studio Ninja love them millions. But literally within like yeah, she phoned me. I said fill in the contact form in the website, which went straight to Studio Ninja, and within two minutes I had a contract out to her, a questionnaire for her to fill in, with all of the timings, et cetera, and payment details. And she was like you literally did that for me in two to three minutes. I said I struggled to get anything out of the other photographer that we booked and she said that just there was too many red flags and alarm bells that they canceled and came to me.
Helen Williams:So it is quite important, or using tools like Studio Ninja can really elevate your business, I think, and make you appear more professional than you are Well.
Neil Redfern:Communication is definitely something that we probably are really underestimate, because we've got lots of weddings on the go, always, haven't we? You know, if you're doing well and you've got like a busy diary, then you might. I don't know however many weddings you've got in and they all can just sort of merge into one, but for our couples they have one wedding, so any sort of communication with them is gonna mean a lot, and I think I'm probably guilty of underestimating that as well, because when you have got a lot on your books you can just sometimes just forget that. Just one email, maybe once every few months, just to check in. It's really useful.
Helen Williams:Yeah, sorry I digress, I've taken us off on a different sort of tangent there. No, that's good, but I think it's quite important, because another photographer lost a booking because their communication seemed a little off to the couple. So I got a cold feet and then booked me Anyway. So it should have been an outdoor ceremony at a beautiful venue and sort of outdoors. It's called Alcumlough Hall, far.
Neil Redfern:Oh, now you've said the venue, but you also said the food was shocking.
Helen Williams:so I'm sure what the guests received was fantastic, but you know, a cold cheese sandwich and a packet of crisps for me.
Neil Redfern:Well, to be fair, that's a fact, isn't it? It is fact. So, yeah, I'm sure what. The couple you did send me a photo when it was like, oh, that's not great.
Helen Williams:Yeah, cold straight from the fridge, like pre-prep.
Neil Redfern:And cheese, yeah, cheese sandwiches.
Helen Williams:No other option, just cheese sandwiches and a packet of crisps.
Neil Redfern:See, if that was me, I would just send a packet of crisps. That would have been all I would have had.
Helen Williams:Yeah, you don't like cheese, do you?
Neil Redfern:No, maybe a bit of bread. Would the bread taste of cheese if you took the cheese off? I don't think so.
Helen Williams:You could have scraped off the cheese and made a crisp sandwich.
Neil Redfern:Crisp butty. Yeah, Actually I've been loving life.
Helen Williams:Now I've realized I totally messed up, or I could have elevated the cheese sandwich by adding the crunch to the crisps Always always add the crunch.
Neil Redfern:That's a little hack actually for anybody listening. If you want to take your sandwiches or your butties to a new level, add some crisps. My advice is always plain, crisps.
Helen Williams:Yeah, ready, salted, proper crunch crisps.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, ideally lower fat, because I find the other ones can be really greasy.
Helen Williams:but yes, there you go, the old top tip of the week. And now I'm absolutely gutted that I had an opportunity to sort of elevate, you know, those dowdy cold cheese sandwiches.
Neil Redfern:So you wouldn't be moaning if you would have done that, and it was there. You had the ingredients.
Helen Williams:I know I'm fuming myself.
Neil Redfern:Well, yeah, Well, next time. Well, hopefully we won't be here next time.
Helen Williams:So many different combinations.
Neil Redfern:Anyway, you used flash during the ceremony.
Helen Williams:I did so it should have been outdoors and they've got like this outdoor church, which is, you know, it's so unusual and peculiar because they've got sort of like basically just a freestanding metal structure that kind of looks like the shape of a church.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, I've never been, but it looks very odd.
Helen Williams:Yeah, it's good though. It's really cool, so it's a nice focal point rather than just a piece of land, anyway. So it should have been outside under there, and yet the weather the day before had been terrible and unfortunately the venue were just not playing ball with regards having an outdoor ceremony. It was a bit windy as well, so we were inside. Now I've shot this venue quite a few times, so I do know in advance. It's quite difficult. But I had heard on the grapevine that they'd installed more lighting so I thought oh, maybe you know they've learned a bit and added some spotlight or something to direct some light at the couple, because essentially they get married right at the back of the barn. There's no windows, the only sort of light source is the big barn doors which are at the other side, and obviously, as the bride walks down the aisle you have a glaring, massive highlight, and that's your only light source is behind the couple and then nothing lighting the front of them.
Helen Williams:So either way, I'd heard that they'd installed lighting or that it was better. Turns out it wasn't so, because I'd done this wedding on my own. I was just finishing bride prep. I got to the venue Literally maybe two or three minutes ahead of the bride. Who?
Helen Williams:was coming with her parents in the limbo.
Helen Williams:So either way, first of all I grabbed my lights just in case, knowing that I could be up against it here, ran in, saw that there was absolutely no improvement in the lighting and that I was once again battling a huge backlight and nothing on their faces.
Helen Williams:Thankfully I had 280, 200 and one V860. And I had my 280, 200 sort of either side of where the celebrant was. I pointed them sort of directly towards the area where the couple were going to stand to do their vows and gridded them, because obviously we're in a massive barn, there was nothing to bounce light off, it just would have got lost. I did grid those lights and point them sort of directly in was from like a 45 degree angle, I'd say. And then, which was I stroke of genius, I put my third light halfway down the aisle, but I did put it on the side of the guests, so I couldn't use it as the bride was walking down the aisle because obviously the guests stood up and would have blocked it. However, when the guests were sat down, because I thought, well, if I go to shoot from the back or try some different angles, then I've got another sort of direction of light coming in and that one worked really really well.
Neil Redfern:For those listening. What sort of flash powers were you using?
Helen Williams:It wouldn't have been a lot, because the ambient was so low, so it might have even been one, two, eight or maybe one sixty-fourth.
Neil Redfern:Yeah.
Helen Williams:I think my eighty two hundred they were pointing directly towards the couple at the front would have been on sixty-fourth power, and then the V860, because obviously it's not as strong would have been on one thirty-two power, and that was gridded also. We'll make sure that we put some of these images out on the flashback to Instagram. Yes, these will be shared Now just to jump in.
Neil Redfern:I think it's really important to say because I know that would be people listen who will maybe think oh, I've never used flash during a ceremony. I just increased the ISO and, as I said to you when I first saw these images and saw the environment you were taking them in, no amount of increase in your ISO can create good light, because the light direction is always going to be bad behind the couple. So even if you increase your ISO, you're going to have all these horrible highlights. That's why we need to control the light and add in light to fight against the backlight. So I just wanted to put that out there.
Neil Redfern:Yes, I know, you know there's nothing wrong if you do want to shoot with high ISOs and stuff like that, but what you cannot do if you want to shoot in natural light in these situations, is create good light. It's not going to be good light. The direction is all wrong. It's going to look horrible, and this is why I think it's so important that we share the images that you've taken. You created Again. You could have recreated these using video lights. It would have still given you really nice images, far, far better than natural light. But I think it's just really important to share what you did create, and but the fact that you had grids on those lights as well almost certainly means that at such low flash powers you'd barely able to even notice that it was going off.
Helen Williams:No, that's what I think. When people go, or maybe it's better to use video lights during a ceremony. They're constantly on and if you're a man, you know if you're worried about guests getting annoyed, etc. You then got video lights facing your guests. They're looking in towards those.
Helen Williams:That is true, and they're on the entire time, whereas literally, like when you've got multi mode on flashes, they can they fire for such a short period of time and like. So when you're controlling the light by using grids or, like I did on that day, my light was hitting the couple.
Neil Redfern:It was very little spill.
Helen Williams:There was very little spill, so I would imagine that actually a guest probably wouldn't have even noticed, because of the angle that they were set on, that flashes are even going off.
Neil Redfern:Well, that was going to be my next question to you. I already knew the answer, obviously, but did anybody complain?
Neil Redfern:No exactly this is the same thing when I use speed lights and flash for speeches. Always, even if the ambient light is decent, I still like to add flash just to bring up the shadows, to mean that I can shoot through things that are on the top table more effectively because they're being lit with speed lights, so that it creates better bokeh. And people in my workshops will often say, oh, does there ever complain? And I've said before on the podcast once I've had one complaint in 15 years and that was because I was shooting in basically a cave. Literally it was a black theater with black walls. It was awful.
Neil Redfern:Without speed lights there, I don't know what I would have done, apart from panic and fly to Mexico. That's once in 15 years. Hundreds and hundreds of weddings never one thing has been mentioned. But that's a stigma I think people have about flashing these situations, and I know the other ambassadors of ours Jesse Amora mentioned earlier. They're amazing at using speed lights within a ceremony and I doubt again anything has ever been said. So it's a shame that there is this stigma around it yeah, I just don't know why.
Helen Williams:Especially, you know, like I said, especially during ceremonies generally, even if the light on the couple is terrible, there is some light in the space. You can still, like I said, up your ISO slightly, so you know. So you're not then firing out at like one sixteenth or one eighth power, etc. But I said, as long as you're controlling that light and it's pointed towards your couple, your guests aren't going to be affected by it. Yeah, I just don't see what the big thing is. We use flashlights and speed lights on the dance floor all the time and you saw the dance floor.
Helen Williams:We're pointing those directly in their face from a short distance.
Neil Redfern:No one cares during the ceremony, I think the assumption that people have is that speed lights are bright and they're distracting and they're on your camera as well, you know, and it just makes you more obvious as a photographer. But the reality is some of the best off-camera flash images you can't tell. A reason off-camera flash, like I will say, is. I was a guest on another podcast recently, the nine dots podcast, my friend, rahul Kona, and we were speaking about off-camera lighting there and a lot of his work. You can't tell he's used speed lights, but yet he has just to really subtly lift up the shadows and you can't tell. You know, if you look at the image, you just think that's amazing light. The reality is he's brought in the light because the pre-existing light would have been poor. Exactly what you're doing there. The pre-existing light was rubbish, but you've just subtly lifted up the shadows just to make all the difference. And again, it's really important to say if you hadn't done that, you would have increased your ISO. Not only would your images have been noisy and really grainy, but the light quality would still have been awful. Yeah, and it was just so obvious. When I saw your images I, oh my look at, because you did have somewhere the flash didn't trigger, didn't you? And seeing those, it was like wow again.
Neil Redfern:If you can go to the flashmasters Instagram and Facebook page, you will see these examples on the day that this podcast goes out and, honestly, it will surprise you and shock you about the situation you were in and I just think, honestly, well done, genuinely well done. Because I looked at those it was like, oh my, wow, what would you have done in natural light? It would have been awful.
Neil Redfern:And the thing is, when your couple look at these images, they won't remember you using flash. You'll have a clue. They'll just think, oh, these are really beautiful. And I just think it's a shame, it's almost like frustrating that they have no clue of the amount of talent and well, it's not a pc phrase, but how much balls it takes to do that as well. Yeah, they'll look at the images, love them and not understand just how much has gone into them. So I honestly I know you know we've spoke about in the podcast before about how you suffer with imposter syndrome and all that stuff and the struggles that you have but honestly, well done. You should be very, very proud of what you did. And that was just Friday's wedding Saturdays with even worse it was.
Helen Williams:And I will just say like I honestly, although I said I have shot at that ceremony, that venue before I've not used I think I might have tried to use flash before but that I didn't quite have the skill level to pull that off or it didn't quite look right. That might have just been about not using the right modifiers or but either way, when I did do that on the day, I was literally arriving two or three minutes ahead of the bride. I don't even think I took a test shot. It was literally that quickly that I had to get them up and turn them on and, apart from pressing like the trigger button on the top of the receiver just to check that the lights were actually connecting and flashing, it was pretty much like ladies and gentlemen, please be understanding, I'm like literally. I was like well, well again that illustrates skill.
Neil Redfern:It also really shows up the assumption that you need time to practice and take test shots. You don't.
Helen Williams:I wish I could pull up the rows from that day. I didn't take a test shot or anything in terms of like, oh, let's adjust this and move that. Like I threw those lights up, they stayed in the exact same position and then suddenly they were coming down the aisle and it was. It really was a just go for it. Keep them on, see what you get. It's gonna look shit without, without it.
Neil Redfern:So there's nothing to lose and I will say I did feel like I walked out of there 10 foot tall after yeah, I could see how proud you were and you got back on it and you deserve that, because this room, the Saturday wedding. Oh, first of all, the really important question how's the food?
Helen Williams:oh, on Saturday yeah three courses baby boo yes, I had a delicious fish cake to start. That was gorgeous, with streaky bacon or all of the nice that you remember so quickly oh, yeah, yeah. So fish cake to start, main was lamb and obviously the usual dough from our potatoes and like delicious, and then a lemon possum for dessert and oh, it was stunning, yes, a full three courses on my second wedding.
Neil Redfern:It rejuvenated me and lifted my spirit that's in the crisp, but oh yes but yeah, when you show me the ceremony location for that, it was like whoa and what was interesting. When we got back or when you got back, rather, and we were trying to find other blogs, maybe, or images online of people who were shot in that room couldn't see one photo which I don't think is a surprise, because I don't think people are blogging that wedding. If they've shot in that room, I would love to have seen them though.
Helen Williams:Yes, so my second venue. I've never, ever, worked there before, and when I walked in and saw that room it was like, oh, this is a pink cave of doom. I was, to be honest, I didn't really look too much into the venue inside.
Neil Redfern:It's nice that they branded it for flashmasses. Yes for you arriving. That was very nice of them, it was it was very kind.
Helen Williams:But yeah, when I walked into that space it was like this is appalling, it was shocking. And I was talking to the staff there and they said, oh yeah, it's really unfortunate we're inside. Today we're very rarely sort of inside, it's only if it's heavy rain, because they've made the venue originally. Most weddings are outside and under sort of like a railway bridge arch is where the bride and groom stand, and then they have a large wooden sort of gazebo where all the guests are and they've got permanent benches out so they have a permanent year round outdoor venue. That, as long as it's not like sideways rain, you can still get married, married up. But the weather on Saturday was horrific and we had our first name storm in the UK since well, for well over a year.
Neil Redfern:So we had storm.
Helen Williams:Antonia, I think it was called.
Neil Redfern:One of the reasons they probably always do outside ceremony ceremonies because I bet all the videographers and the photographers are bribing them on. They're saying look, whatever comes a go. Look, here's 100 quid. We need to go outside. We cannot stay in this cave.
Helen Williams:Yeah. So it's going to be really interesting to show the before and afters because otherwise the rest of the venue beautiful, very spacious. It's a barn venue but whereas a lot of barns are sort of obviously old with small little windows, there are certain parts which have small little windows but otherwise it's quite a sort of an oak built modern barn with glass glass glass everywhere.
Helen Williams:It's so light and beautiful and quite spacious. So I you know the rest of the venue. I rate it was easy. It's like she's a fish in a barrel lots of laughs and just good light everywhere. However, because I said, this ceremony room isn't used very often. There clearly isn't too much thought into it, and where they get married indoors it's also where they have the disco and it's in the old part of the barn with zero windows or natural light, none whatsoever, nothing to light sort of the people and natural light at all to bring the atmosphere to the room.
Helen Williams:They have some strip LED light that's built into the ceiling that cast pink, but they just go around the outside of the of the room and there's some beams as well, so it cuts the room almost like into squares. There's certain areas that have a bit of pink coming down in the middle of the room and otherwise there's spotlights around the edges of the room which light the walls, because the walls are like the original stone of the barn so that looks really nice.
Helen Williams:They're obviously highlighting how old this room is. However, like literally all they've done is lit the walls and the guests are with a couple are. There's nothing at all to light them at all. So all you have is this pink room and highlights on the walls, but there's there's no light source whatsoever on the people yeah, so without speed lights it's gonna look like a Amsterdam shop window Basically.
Helen Williams:Oh, dear me, I will say, though, those LED lights are in the ceiling Looked fantastic for a shutter drag in the evening on the dance floor. It was a great dance floor space, but not a good ceremony space.
Neil Redfern:Cool. Well, I also just want to say thank God, ox, for speed lights. I don't know, I'd be way to say that no, but again, these images will be shared. I just really want you to go and see them because I honestly, I was blown away when I saw that not just how good your images were, but it's seeing the behind the scenes and seeing the natural light versions, which is so like shocking almost, that that is actually a venue.
Neil Redfern:You know like you would think. You would even think that the venue would think do you know what? This probably isn't great. We should probably do something about, about this space.
Helen Williams:Well, to be honest, said venue have already messaged me on Instagram. They've asked for the images. They love the photos. We'd love to use them on our website. I thought, well, I'm not surprised you do, because, if I'm honest, we're all meeting.
Helen Williams:this is a new Helen the one image, the one image that they have for their indoor ceremony space is shocking. I'm sorry to whoever took, for took it the one image that they've got to show the indoor ceremony is obviously taken with the no light and it's doesn't sell the space at all. So, yeah, when they reached out, I was actually very open with them that I love the venue. I did, plus there'd be three courses. So, like you know, you're instantly on my favorites list because, let's be honest, anywhere that gives you three courses I love. But I did say on there. I will say, though, that ceremony rooms incredibly challenging.
Neil Redfern:They'll know this.
Helen Williams:I have said that the lights that you have in that space are literally only lighting the walls and there's nothing coming onto the couples, which is so difficult for photographers or videographers. But I did say, however, that plays right into my hands as someone who can use flash, because I've got, no doubt. That my images stand out against the majority of photographers, who work inside.
Neil Redfern:I like it.
Helen Williams:Thank you. They probably don't like it because I haven't had a reply.
Neil Redfern:You've been left on red.
Helen Williams:So, yeah, they probably. Well, they've seen it. And because then I was like, yeah, if you've got any space on your wedding face, or try to make the most of it. Now you know, yes, I'm awesome, those images are fantastic. Put me on a suppliers list, please, but they've gone quiet.
Neil Redfern:Next week's episode we have a catch up.
Helen Williams:Yeah, they're probably just ghosting me now because I insulted their venue.
Neil Redfern:Last question Did the registrar say anything? Did you ask the registrar?
Helen Williams:I did.
Helen Williams:I did so. I did warn them as soon as they arrived and before the ceremony, whilst they were talking to the groom. I did because I kept that on low power. So for this ceremony for the first ceremony I had, because there was high ceilings and it was a vast, dark barn I used grids and directed the flashes at them. However, this was a barn, but it had a low white ceiling and it was very cramped. So in that instance, instead, I wanted to spread the light as well, because otherwise there was no lights on, like the front row, I wouldn't be able to see mum crying or something. So for this one, I bounced, flashed off the white ceiling. I'm not sure why I got into that. What was I saying?
Neil Redfern:I don't know, but thank you for sharing your tales from the weekend.
Helen Williams:Yes, thank you. I felt like I think I put in the flashmasters group, like not all heroes wear capes. But after that weekend I truly felt like I did my money and I'd put in my worth you did 100% because those weddings should have been easier, they should have been outside in lovely light.
Neil Redfern:You know it should be a summer's day and everything would have been fine and no one would. We wouldn't have been having this conversation. But I just think not only is it good to share those images and it was really good to see just how well they were receding the flashmasters group you got loads of nice comments about those but also I think it's important that we share this and just to just to show what we are sometimes faced with and what the difference is when you do no flash and it's not difficult, is it? You've just described that this was basically two speed lights for each ceremony. Well, I know it's slightly. One was bouncing, one was direct, but a couple of grids on low power Boom done.
Helen Williams:Yeah, no one's complained. No one noticed, and that's what we were talking about the registrars. So I checked with the registrars, I had them on the lowest power just to give some fill and obviously it was very effective. The registrars didn't even notice. They were like oh, is that it? There you go.
Helen Williams:And yeah so there was no big deal. So please like, just don't be scared about using flash when you've got terrible, terrible light, unless if you're shooting in church, because I'm pretty sure well, we're lucky just to be able to photograph anything sometime, so you might come against a bit more resistance there. But I think in the hall registrars they're quite used to seeing it. I don't think flashing during ceremony is a shocking, as we sometimes build it up to be in our heads and a little spoiler alert.
Neil Redfern:You'll be doing this as well my up coming shine workshop.
Neil Redfern:Let it shine, so we thought it'd be a really good thing to demonstrate at the workshop how you do you speak if you need to. Obviously, you don't always do this, but if you do find yourself in a situation like this where you've got very little option to shoot in natural light during a wedding ceremony, then you'll be demonstrating how you light during a ceremony, Plus group shots as well, which I know you're brilliant at lighting group shots. Even when many people think, oh, but these natural light don't need to do that, you still use speed lights and your images for group shots I've always thought are amazing.
Helen Williams:Thank you.
Neil Redfern:Well, thank you for agreeing to to do a little talk at the shine workshop.
Helen Williams:Now I really enjoy doing that and I think it's a really important skill to have and I think it's something that can really elevate how your work appears to couples and they're important parts of the day and I think a little bit of light, done right, can really sort of take you to the next level can really help you shine.
Neil Redfern:Yes, it can. There we go. So thank you so much, everyone, for listening to this podcast. We hope you've enjoyed it, as always. If you'd like to join us in the Flashmasters community, you can do so at flashmastersco. Thank you very much for listening and we will see you next time.
Helen Williams:Don't forget to keep flashing, even during the ceremony.
Neil Redfern:Nice.