In this episode we play Argumental, where we debate natural light wedding photography v Flash wedding photography and who is the most important wedding supplier out of Content Creators and Toastmasters? It's a heated debate!
We also find out about the role of chimney sweeps at weddings - who knew that was a thing?!
This episode was recorded live at Neil Redfern's SHINE wedding photography workshop and features two of Neil's attendees; Dru Dodd and Caroline Rushton. A huge thank you to both Dru and Caroline for joining us and making this is a funny episode!
Dru Dodd: https://www.drudodd.co.uk/
Caroline Rushton: https://www.carolinerushtonphotography.co.uk/
Join us in the Flash Masters community:
Website: https://flashmasters.co/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/flashmasters/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@flash-masters
Flash Masters is hosted by:
Helen Williams: https://www.instagram.com/helenwilliamsphotography/
Neil Redfern: https://www.instagram.com/neilredfern/
In this episode we play Argumental, where we debate natural light wedding photography v Flash wedding photography and who is the most important wedding supplier out of Content Creators and Toastmasters? It's a heated debate!
We also find out about the role of chimney sweeps at weddings - who knew that was a thing?!
This episode was recorded live at Neil Redfern's SHINE wedding photography workshop and features two of Neil's attendees; Dru Dodd and Caroline Rushton. A huge thank you to both Dru and Caroline for joining us and making this is a funny episode!
Dru Dodd: https://www.drudodd.co.uk/
Caroline Rushton: https://www.carolinerushtonphotography.co.uk/
Join us in the Flash Masters community:
Website: https://flashmasters.co/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/flashmasters/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@flash-masters
Flash Masters is hosted by:
Helen Williams: https://www.instagram.com/helenwilliamsphotography/
Neil Redfern: https://www.instagram.com/neilredfern/
Hi, hi, welcome to the Flash masters podcast. I am Martin Hobby and I am proud to be a member of the Flash masters community. Flash masters recognizes and celebrates the best flash photography in the world through awards, education and community. To find out more and to join us, visit flashmastersco.
Neil Redfern:Here are your hosts Helen Williams and Neil Redfern Hi everybody and welcome to the Flash masters podcast with me, neil Redfern and me, helen Williams. This is a very, very special episode, isn't it? Because we are recording today's podcast in front of a live studio audience. Yeah, we are on my shine workshop, my three day wedding day workshop, and it's been brilliant. I've loved it so far. How have you found it, helen?
Helen Williams:Very good, and where are we exactly, neil?
Neil Redfern:We are in North Wales. I'm not following for your trick. Where are we exactly? Clangloklin, oh, Clangloklin.
Helen Williams:Yeah anyway.
Caroline Rushton:So that's exactly what I said.
Helen Williams:Clangloklin yeah, so it's been brilliant.
Neil Redfern:Today we spent the whole day shooting. The weather's been amazing. I think most of you actually just enjoyed being outside, just having a drink, basically, and I thank you all. I'm looking around the room now. Thank you all for coming. You've made it so, so good. The great thing is about being a three day sort of residential workshop, so we're all staying in this huge house. Well, also, with a few guests, a few flies as well, we're always staying in this amazing house, so we're all just sat up drinking. Now it's nearly midnight, but we're starting to record a podcast.
Helen Williams:Yes, as you do. And we're not just talking, just the two of us. Today we do have one of our wonderful attendees joining us.
Neil Redfern:Well, hopefully others join in. We'll see how it goes. So what we're gonna do? We're gonna play a game called argumental, which is basically an idea that I've got from another podcast. So a big shout out to my favorite podcast, which is Jack Makes Happy Hour, where they have played this game and basically you have two people arguing their case for something. Now, that doesn't mean that they actually believe it, but the game is, they have to put their case forward for that. So the first round is going to be Helen versus our amazing attendee, an incredible wedding photographer going to check his workout, dru Dodd, do you want to recount your story? You've just been talking about Dru, you've gone.
Helen Williams:No, Drew is just shaking his head. He's given us the wildest wedding story we've ever heard. But yeah, it was that wild, we haven't been able to record it unfortunately.
Neil Redfern:So we're going to start off with what was the subject. We was gonna say Ah, I do. Now, I don't think Helen or Dru like either of these two suppliers. However, the game is the game. Don't hate the player, Is that? What's that saying?
Helen Williams:Yeah, don't hate the player, hate the game.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, either way. So the subject is the most important wedding supplier on a wedding day content creator versus Toastmaster. So Helen notoriously finds it tricky to work with Toastmasters. I happen to love Toastmasters, I love their red jackets.
Helen Williams:That's really bullshit.
Neil Redfern:I love their little red jackets and the way that they just walk around doing nothing. That's my favorite thing, so.
Dru Dodd:They're not little, though are they?
Neil Redfern:Yeah, no, not often. Not Every Toastmaster is massive.
Dru Dodd:That is true, that is true.
Neil Redfern:We're gonna ask Helen to put forward the case for Toastmasters being far more important than content creators. Drew loves content creators. He loves how they jump in front of him with their mobile phones, so he's going to put the case forward for content creators. So it's up to you two who's gonna go first and then afterwards, so you both spend 20 seconds, 30 seconds, putting your case forward. Then you can debate it. Then we're gonna open up to a vote, a group vote, about who wins, and it's very much not on your preconceived ideas, it's on who puts forward the best case. Okay, so who wants to go first?
Helen Williams:I'll let our guests go first. How kind I am.
Neil Redfern:Nothing very much, Okay, so Drew can you please tell us why content creators are much better, are much more important on a wedding day than Toastmasters?
Dru Dodd:So I would say now, phone is basically how people consume media, so I think content creator going around taking things with their phone so that people can view it on their phone is the best way for someone to feel like they were at their wedding. It's almost taken over from photography and videography in some regards.
Neil Redfern:So, that being said, I don't know if I'm allowed to jump in. Would you say that they're more important than the photographer? Now, it's not what I thought they had expected you to say.
Dru Dodd:Maybe not more important than a photographer, but you could argue that it's on par with, rather than having, a videographer. Possibly, though, because it's more common for people to watch reels and things like that on their phones than they would watching a film on the TV. Wow in traits. It's a compelling case Also I mean I've spoken to this about my girlfriend quite a bit where I think the invention of a smartphone with it being portrait is destroying cinematography, because good cinematography is obviously done 16 by 9. But now all media is nine by 16.
Neil Redfern:Does this not sound like you're actually arguing against content creators?
Dru Dodd:then no, no. But so now that the media the way we consume media has changed, the content creators filled this new void, so they're doing basically what is on trend now.
Neil Redfern:I'm actually believing it.
Dru Dodd:They're doing these things like the boomerang. I don't know, is boomerang still a thing?
Helen Williams:I don't know.
Caroline Rushton:I'm just really old.
Dru Dodd:But they're doing these things. Yeah, the TikTok things. So they're doing the TikTok. I mean, people are going to look back at these for however long a smartphone does In 20 years, no one's going to be like, wow, wasn't it really good that we got invited into a room by a man in a red jacket?
Neil Redfern:Oh yeah, there's the dirt.
Dru Dodd:Like no one's going to remember that and the coordinator could do that. Or what mostly happens is the coordinator can't be asked to do it and they get the photographer to do it.
Dru Dodd:Let it out, really it's good therapy Well, maybe not announcing them into the room, but I feel like, as a photographer, we do a lot of coordinating on the day, like getting the group shot together and stuff like that. There's one venue in the Northeast where the coordinator guy does literally everything, like he gets the big group shot together. He's really cool, actually as well. His voice fills the room and he's like ladies and gentlemen, can I have your attention please? And everyone shuts up and looks at him. Sounds like he's pretty important though. Yeah, yeah he is, but he's not a tourmaster.
Neil Redfern:Oh, ok, ok, well saved, well saved, he doesn't wear red jacket.
Dru Dodd:He wears very fetch and purple jacket and he gets everybody out for the group shot and stuff. So venues provide these things without you getting some guy from some guild or whatever they're in to do these things.
Neil Redfern:Well, first of all, let me just say that's a very compelling case. So thank you, Drew. You've really changed my opinion there, so I don't know how you're going to come back from that, helen. I mean, they sound like they're vital.
Helen Williams:Well, no, toast masses are absolutely vital. They are there on a wedding day to be that person that everyone can see clearly and most people. How many weddings have they been to in their lives? How many times have our brides and grooms been married before? Some maybe once, maybe twice, if they've been very unlucky. But many people on a wedding day don't know what they're doing. They need the support, the guidance, the sort of someone to lean on to help guide them through. You know the pitfalls and emotional roller coaster and journey of a wedding day, and I think that's where a toast master thrives and succeeds. They are professionals who know exactly how the day should run, who can apply a buttonhole or a boutonniere if you want to be extra posh. They are there to support and guide our couples and their guests on every step of the wedding journey.
Neil Redfern:But they're not doing TikTok dances or anything like that, which you know they're going to be amazing to look back on.
Helen Williams:But if we did it at Havato's master, then we would all be running far too late, and then the content creators wouldn't even be able to get their TikTok, because the place would just be a shambles.
Neil Redfern:I mean Drew, I don't know what you want to say.
Dru Dodd:to that I do agree with you on one point where you said they're there to be visible because they are at the back of every single fucking photograph of the ceremony. Oh, you're freaking the fire, and they're not even looking at the ceremony, they're looking at the opposite wall, just stood there like a telephone box. Oh, yeah. And it is ridiculous, my drop If you're going to be at the back, don't wear red.
Neil Redfern:It's funny because it's true. I think, they're just a wonderful pop of colour.
Helen Williams:They're vibrant.
Neil Redfern:Fight back, Helen.
Helen Williams:You could literally colour pop. You could literally. We're going back to the trends of the 80s and, you know, early days Fashion is back in that trend. I think colour pop's going to be huge. What a brilliant person to colour pop in a wedding. But the toast bastard.
Dru Dodd:I heard a rumour, though, that Adobe brought out Generative Phil to get rid of Toast Masters.
Neil Redfern:Oh yeah.
Helen Williams:This is so hard for me. I'm like get any Toast Masters. I hate them, no, but they do provide.
Dru Dodd:I'm not even arguing for content creators yeah.
Caroline Rushton:I'm just arguing against anybody.
Dru Dodd:That's what we're all loving. Get anybody but a Toast Master, I'm like. Get a chimney sweep. Have you seen them? Yeah, I shot my first wedding.
Neil Redfern:No, I am intrigued by these.
Dru Dodd:I shot my first wedding with a chimney sweep, like six years ago, right, and my girlfriend was helping me as like a light and assistant. And it was just after the ceremony and she came to me and she was like drew the chimney sweep, wonders when you're gonna do the photo with him. And I was like sorry. And she was like the chimney sweep is outside and I was like what are you talking about? And she was like there's a man with suit on his face, with a bike and a chimp and like a brush and he wants to speak to you. And I went out and he was literally there and I was like hello. And he was like oh, when are you gonna do the photos? And I was like I'm really sorry about, I've got no idea what you're talking about. And he was like, oh, the bride's mum booked me. And I was like sorry for what? And he was like, oh, it's like tradition and good luck.
Neil Redfern:I'm not sure if anyone else is aware.
Dru Dodd:It is actually a thing.
Neil Redfern:You have a chimney sweep turn up to your wedding day.
Dru Dodd:It's good luck for the bride to be kissed by a chimney sweep on a wedding day. And I was like, who made up that?
Neil Redfern:tradition Chimney sweeps. Chimney sweeps.
Dru Dodd:They wanna go around kissing brides. So then I was like, all right, okay.
Neil Redfern:And the bride in your case? He doesn't know.
Dru Dodd:So I didn't I don't think she did. So I did the photograph with the bride and groom in the chimney sweep and then I said to the guy I was like how did he get into this? And he was like no, no, I'm literally a chimney sweep.
Caroline Rushton:He's my fight hustle.
Dru Dodd:I was at the petrol station the other day filming my van up with his chimney sweep thing on, and the bride's mum came over to him and said my daughter's getting married at the weekend. Would you come to the wedding? So he was like. So I just put some suit on my face and like and turned up. He's like come here, hey. Hey, it was mad. And since then I've done so, including that one. I've done three weddings with three chimney sweeps. Seperates which over 13 years, so it's not really that traditional.
Neil Redfern:No, I've done not. I've never had that look, but it is mad.
Dru Dodd:Another tradition I don't know if it's just in my area, but there's. I mean there's one church these women come and it's a tradition that after the married, the couple have to climb over this little. They've got this little stool, so they put this little stool out the church. The couple climb over and the groom has to give each of the two women 20 quid and they're like. They're like in the 70s, like it's a total racket. That is a brilliant scam. All those people better than tourist masters.
Helen Williams:There's just so much to take from that. So now, if we don't want to photograph weddings anymore, but we're bored on a Saturday, we literally just take a stool outside church and force people to pay us before they exit.
Dru Dodd:In Northumberland. I've not seen it anywhere else.
Helen Williams:The witches or something.
Dru Dodd:No, no, they were like WI members.
Helen Williams:WI.
Dru Dodd:My mom's in the WI. So I was giving them the best credit I could. But they aren't a money-mating scam. That is brilliant 40 quid to go over a stool. It's like you know, like what you would see, like people would like milk a cow on. So it's like really little stool like it's, not a bar stool or anything like that. John, behind you don't cry.
Neil Redfern:Well, it's a compelling case. I'm interested in telling what you put forward. A very good case for white toast. Master of Sewers Centre. What's your opinion on content creators?
Helen Williams:They're absolute garbage. They're just taking what we're taking with shitter, equipment and bad lights. So, yes, they created stuff quickly, but it's not very good quality and they're doing nothing but interfering with the professionals who know what they're doing.
Neil Redfern:Remember, on this he's not necessarily held the opinion. This is her playing the game. No, completely. Yes.
Helen Williams:I've worked with two very lovely content creators.
Neil Redfern:Exactly. That's why I'm just thinking of these ones in particular.
Helen Williams:Yeah the two content creators I've worked with have both asked to come on this podcast so they can fight their corner. I'm like nah.
Neil Redfern:Helen's had a wine.
Helen Williams:Okay, well, two excellent cases.
Neil Redfern:I think what we're gonna do, we're gonna go round. Actually what?
Dru Dodd:Just on the stool thing.
Neil Redfern:No, please carry on. This is gold.
Dru Dodd:I've just done some quick maths here. I think it takes about three seconds to go over. So they can do a few in a day Over the stool.
Neil Redfern:Over the stool.
Dru Dodd:So, pro-rata, on an hourly rate, these two women each are earning like 24,000 pounds an hour.
Neil Redfern:Now, if they can go to 15 weddings in a day, they are sorted.
Dru Dodd:So what would that be? So that's say, eight hours in a day, that's 192,000 pounds. A day they're earning, that's 960,000 pounds a week.
Neil Redfern:We are in the wrong job.
Helen Williams:Yeah, we just need to say yes 49.9 million pound a year pro-rata.
Dru Dodd:That is amazing.
Neil Redfern:It's just a shame that they're only getting one booking every 15 years.
Dru Dodd:That's more than a gondola driver in Venice who earns 150,000 pounds a year. What Did they really?
Neil Redfern:Yeah, this is like a new segment for the podcast Facts by Drew Dodd.
Dru Dodd:Paul and I went to Italy in the summer so because of COVID, obviously I had no weddings during COVID and then after COVID I had loads of weddings and Paul as a teacher, so we never had like the summer holiday or anything. So this year I said I had one wedding in August and I would turn down every other wedding and would like go away on holiday. So she wanted to go to Lake Garda, so we went there and then we got the train to Venice and we stopped in Venice for a night and she really wanted to do the gondola ride and I was like it's really expensive and she was like, yeah, but when are we gonna be back to Venice? And I was like well, never, cause it's hotter than Mordor. But so we went on it and it's 80 quid or 80 euros for like 15 minutes or something. And then the guy who did it I was asking him about gondola drive Like you have to be Wait.
Neil Redfern:so you're only on it for 15 minutes and part of your 50 minutes you're having a chat with the driver.
Dru Dodd:I basically was like this the whole time asking him questions, cause I was like I wanna know all the information I can get. There's only 144 of them. Do it you have to be Venetian, you have to do a three year course I'm learning and then you have to retire when you're 65, I think and then the people who do best on the course take up the immediate spots and then everyone else is like holding. So it's like dead man shoes kind of thing.
Dru Dodd:Oh, wow, and they get like fitness test, drug test, all that, and the rate of money is set by the Venetian council. So it's £80 in the day, 110 or something at night.
Neil Redfern:You learned a lot on your 50 minute gondola.
Dru Dodd:But then afterwards I Googled like so they do four or five days on, three days off in the summer, and then in the winter they do four days on and three days off or something. So I Googled like how much they're earning it's 150,000 euros a year. Wow.
Helen Williams:Just to push a boat around.
Dru Dodd:I mean, it's pretty tough work actually.
Helen Williams:Because they're not pushing it.
Dru Dodd:They're just one comment on, but they're not actually pushing it. It's not like punting. It does have an O and you're not O-ing it like that, you're O-ing it like that, and so they have this.
Helen Williams:I think it's called a roll-up or something Like this works so well on them. They're not doing it like this. They're doing it like this.
Dru Dodd:And like a gondola they own the boat gets made Like so this guy he's was that used ours.
Neil Redfern:How do you think it would?
Dru Dodd:be a council boat. It was named after his wife and stuff and it was all like gold leaf and stuff like that. It was really nice and the bit that holds the O. I mean what this has got to do with photography.
Neil Redfern:No, I mean, I'm learning.
Dru Dodd:The bit that the O goes in, which is kind of like a roll-up, I guess, on a room boat, is made specifically for that gondola driver. So the height of it and the jaw length and width and stuff like that, like perfectly hairstyle. But it's like really strenuous work I think, and I mean when we were doing it it was like nearly 40 degrees. I wouldn't want to work like that. Yeah, that's true, About 450 grand. Yeah, I would yeah.
Helen Williams:It's just the romantic tricks, that's what.
Neil Redfern:I mean Then it's like Foggy old friend expecting romance from Venice.
Helen Williams:He always has a chat about how some random gondola driver like has a special role.
Dru Dodd:What do you say to a gondola driver? Have you been busy? Yeah, yeah, what's that you want to? You wish?
Martin Hobby:Right amazing.
Helen Williams:I don't even know where to go for that.
Neil Redfern:I love the avenues that we've gone down, based on the argument you've got to be Drew that wins, I'm afraid. What Jeez, unfortunately, unfortunately. It was a very compelling argument that when he said will you remember a Toadmaster in 20 years? But you'll be looking back on them and tip-top dances. That was the wind, that was the might drop, I'm afraid.
Helen Williams:You are sleeping on the sofa tonight, and also when In a red jacket. Yeah, yeah.
Neil Redfern:And also the point about Toadmaster being a back of photographs. It's a very it's compelling, it sucks me in.
Dru Dodd:Seriously, why do they stand behind the top table as well?
Neil Redfern:Do you know what's funny? We spoke about this on previous podcasts and we said the exact same thing, but you wouldn't have thought that, like For those that are listening, drew is based what? Two and a half, three hours away, in a different area of the country.
Dru Dodd:Five, five, oh, from, yeah, but it's like you would have thought that maybe it's different in a different area of the country, but no, maybe that's just it's country-wide, because I did the one in London and there was a Tourist Master and he says there's like a guild of Tourist Masters, like you've got to be accredited and stuff.
Neil Redfern:Maybe they trained him to do that.
Dru Dodd:Yeah, yeah so there's someone telling them like being as obnoxious as possible.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, I worked with one recently and I overheard him. We always had to do our caveat. This does not apply to Stefan, the Tall Toastmaster, who's very, very good and actually take some of your photographs, doesn't he, Helen?
Helen Williams:Yeah, he has taken some whole group photos pre-drone era, because I'm just too short.
Neil Redfern:Pre-drone.
Helen Williams:Yeah, now I've got a drone, I don't need Stefan anymore.
Dru Dodd:So, like I love you, Stefan, but like you're now redundant, oh God, To be fair everything I've said about against Tourist Masters, I should put the caveat in of I've never worked with a nasty Tourist Master. Yes, they've all been like, really nice people. It's just been difficult from a photography point of view.
Helen Williams:I just don't like being micromanaged. It's like, no, I am my own boss now. You kind of basically have taken the role of a boss for the day and I'm like I don't need you to be tapping your watch or telling me what time to sit down. I know it's just some random person who just appointed themselves as my boss for the day. Bugger off, anyway. Yeah, that's mine.
Neil Redfern:Thank you so much, Drew, for that you took the win, and thank you for the education I feel educated, you and me, drew Dodd, knew you, neil Redfern, aha. Like and on that bombshell, we will move on now. Thank you very much, drew. Okay, so that was an amazing win by Drew. Helen was firmly put in her place here, so what we're gonna do is keep. We're gonna play winner. Keep stays on, I think.
Helen Williams:Yes.
Neil Redfern:And the next debate, drew is gonna take on another of our attendees, a very, very talented wedding photographer, caroline Rushton. Thank you for joining us. Now we should just say Caroline has been a little bit under the weather at the moment, so thank you for doing this, caroline. So this one this is very controversial. This is flash versus natural light. So someone will be arguing of course you can use flash, it's not a problem, it'll help your images. The other person's gonna argue no, you shouldn't use flash, it's horrible. Natural light all the way, baby. Now we are also aware this is the Flash Masters podcast, so if you're listening to this, chances are you've already got an opinion on this. But I think we make it a bit tricky for Drew. What do you?
Helen Williams:think yeah, 100%.
Neil Redfern:So, drew, you're gonna argue. Flash Masters member and multiple award winner, drew is going to argue the case for natural light only. Okay, caroline, you're gonna. You're on the good side, you're a goodie. You're gonna argue for the use of flash in wedding photography. So he wants to go first, drew, okay, so we flipped a coin. Caroline's pointing over to Drew. So, drew, why, why have you got such an issue with flash? I think I couldn't just say it as well, because I know it's difficult. Drew, I've said before, go and check out his work. He's an insanely talented photographer who uses flash to an amazing degree. He's won multiple Flash Masters awards for, obviously, for his use of flash. Suddenly, for some reason, he's turned to a turncoat.
Dru Dodd:So yeah, I'm totally fraught because I use it even though I think it should not be used. If you think how many venues there are just in the UK, there's a specific reason why a couple have picked that venue and they've picked it because of how it looks and how it's lit by the venue. So who is it for a photographer to be like? Oh no, I don't think you should get married at that venue looking like that. You should get married at the venue looking like how I think it should look.
Neil Redfern:I'm falling for it.
Dru Dodd:Who spent the money? The couple have spent the money on the venue that they wanted to look like. That you know, if you buy a car, you buy a Mercedes car. You don't want to get into it and it looks like a Nissan Micra, like you're like. Nah, I bought a Mercedes Like. I want it to look like a Mercedes on the inside. So don't use a flash.
Helen Williams:You can tell this guy's got a PhD.
Neil Redfern:I don't want to argue against you for anything.
Caroline Rushton:The thing is, though, any professional photographer will look at things and know that the camera will say only so many dynamics stops of light, and you'll need flash to make them look like the natural eye would see it anyway. So it's not necessarily to look always like a flash and a different thing. It's actually making how that person is seeing it, because the camera can't make it look like that. Oh, I mean, what if you've got a rubbish venue.
Neil Redfern:I mean, we can transform that venue. Surely that's a good thing.
Caroline Rushton:Oh yeah, I mean it's more that you've got to understand what a couple are looking for in a venue They've chosen for a reason. What have they seen of it, and actually bring out those aspects. And what if the light's not good? That day You'll not get any cameras Not going to have to bring that out in any natural light because there's nothing and it's making that flash. Look not like flash but actually good lit photos, and that's not what any camera gonna do in natural light.
Dru Dodd:Yeah, I do take your point, it is true. I mean, I think it's just. I suppose it comes down to faithfulness. Like you know, if they had a drab day, they might want to have photos at a drab.
Caroline Rushton:I don't think any bride and couple are gonna want their photos looked drab. I think they're gonna want them to look their skin to look good, the eyes to pop and the dress to look crisp and how that vision they've always seen their image of their wedding day look.
Dru Dodd:That's why they're gonna want it. The thing about it is the gold seal for a flash photographer is when they use flash but it looks like natural light and you don't know they've used flash. So therefore, if that's a really good flash photographer, put their replicating a natural light photographer.
Caroline Rushton:But it's not. That's, no, no big good point, but any is. And go back to my original point that no camera can make it look like that without you know. It has to have an element of light to lift those shadows and bring out a skin tone. You're not going to get that. And that's bringing that, making that flash look like good ambulance light, because that's how the couple and what their vision and their hearts want for their camera. Oh, their heart.
Martin Hobby:Oh yeah, good word.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, hit him where it hurts.
Dru Dodd:I mean that is true, but also I mean you can shoot silhouettes and they don't use flash, and I mean they look great but they're human. I can't see that.
Neil Redfern:I'd be curious to know what's your take on like winter weddings where it goes dark at 4pm.
Dru Dodd:I mean, if they want to get married, then oh, it's a couple's fault. They wanted it to be dark. Then what are you doing? Bringing in all these lights, Just spoiling all the ambient candlelight with these flashes just popping constantly Drew's good at this he must be in a debating society.
Neil Redfern:Any last words, caroline, on behalf of Flashmasters.
Caroline Rushton:I think that it's having bringing good light to a wedding will allow images to be creative, have natural ambient light as well in the attitude, that aspect, the balance of that, and actually just give a whole different gallery and in it. Obviously we're in England and obviously you know we haven't got the benefit of using that natural light and we have drab, horrible light, and so we make sure that we can bring that light to a wedding to give them, the couple, what they need for their gallery.
Neil Redfern:Excellent. Any last words, any last closing statements.
Dru Dodd:I mean, I personally pay $197 a year to be a member of Flashmasters. So I feel like I should just basically walk along the plank myself and say like you should be a Flash photographer, but a good Flash photographer, like I mean there is, you can have bad Flash photography and you can have good Flash photography. That's very true, and I mean there is a room for natural light as well, but sometimes venues don't know how to light themselves.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, very true, I think, on behalf of everyone in the room. I think Caroline's going to take the win for that one.
Neil Redfern:Please gosh she does, for as we're out of the job, what a very, very compelling argument for Drew. Again, let me reiterate this is a game. This is not. What I don't think is what Drew actually believes, and if you look at his work, you'll know that he's most stunning images, which are insanely amazing. I've learned a lot from Drew at my own workshop. I actually had a bit of a Drew masterclass workshop before from the man himself. So, yeah, thank you, drew, for that and thank you for putting a very good case forward for natural life.
Dru Dodd:My hope from this is that someone is listening to the podcast in the car driving along and a Mercedes goes past and you think is that interior Nissan Micra, or is it really a Mercedes? I mean, that is one of life's great quandaries now.
Helen Williams:Yeah, it's a bit like car roll over again, isn't?
Dru Dodd:it. You don't know. It's the Mercedes interior. I know you're actually inside the Mercedes, exactly, and there's a flash popping off.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, that was brilliant. Well, thank you so much, I think, actually because we've learned a lot more and the games have gone on a bit longer than we thought. So I think we'll draw a line there, especially because your eyes look tiny now, helen.
Helen Williams:I am knackered. We've been like, yeah, we've been going for a good while, oh, my Fitbit's just gone midnight so I've lost my steps, but I've done like about 27,000 steps today and I think, walking around, we could only describe this place as a mansion. But yeah, walking up and down the steps, doing all the cooking, this, that, the other, and I literally feel like I'm one of those servants on Downton Abbey today and, yeah, I've just been a bit of a mess. So, if I'm honest, I want to go to bed, I want to go before, I want to shower, I need to wash my hair because I don't want to be a greasy bitch tomorrow. So, yeah, sorry, that was a really random end to the cast.
Neil Redfern:I didn't get to go to that down there. I will say publicly, as it were, on the podcast thank you, Helen, for teaching today. Oh yeah, I did that too. I think, from what I've heard, you did an amazing job, Not of timekeeping, but the actual thing that you were discussing. You did really really well. So not only that, you have been organizing all the behind the scenes with the food, so thank you for being a massive part of it. So I will forgive you for being a bit tired now.
Helen Williams:Oh, thank you.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, so again, thank you everybody for coming to this workshop. Obviously, we've got tomorrow yet we're not done by any means Got another full day tomorrow, but thank you all for coming. Oh, thank you for Martyn, where he's with my island here, who is not only a great photographer but a brilliant British magician who has been doing some of these tricks for us and, yeah, incredible, mind blown. So if only we were recording some video, I'd ask you to do something. Is there anything you can do audio-wide? I'm guessing not.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, but thank you, I don't know what that would be, and I think, doing a magic trick on a podcast. He's probably a little dull for somebody like listening to this. Are they make stereo Stereo?
Dru Dodd:no, He'd be pretty cool if Martyn was like I'm over here.
Neil Redfern:Oh, I'm sorry.
Dru Dodd:And then if you're listening in a car, he's like moving around your car, yeah give this a micro, yeah give this a micro.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, so thank you all for coming. Thank you to Tobias as well, who has come all the way from Germany. So thank you for doing it. And thank you for everybody for coming. I'm loving this. So far, it's been an amazing group. Can't wait for tomorrow. So yeah, thank you very much for listening everyone, as always. If you'd like to join us in the Flash Masters community, you can do so at flashmastersco. So yeah, thank you very much for listening and we will see you in the next one.
Helen Williams:And don't forget to keep.
Neil Redfern:Oh, the big one, that's the big one. Thank you for listening everyone. Oh, thank you, drew. Thank you, caroline, for being our debaters for our mass debates. Thank you very much. Bye Boom. Thank you everyone. Oh my God, did you hear that, mate? You actually said that Master-de-baters. No, you actually said Master LAUGHTER, master-de-baters on Master-de-baters. Oh my God, master-de-baters. Oh my God, laughter, master-de-baters. Yeah, exactly Me and Drew are confused by this. Play it back. Oh, you're thinking of the rude word. How do you even get that until?
Helen Williams:just now You're lying, gosh Adam Paul chair's lying for the beat.